March 24, 2020 Show with Dr. Joe Morecraft on “With Liberty & Justice For All: Christian Politics Made Simple” (Part 2)

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is

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Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 24th day of March, 2020.

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And I'm thrilled to have back for the second time in just a couple of weeks my friend

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Dr. Joe Moorcraft. He is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia, and he is continuing a discussion that we began last week on his book,

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With Liberty and Justice for All, Christian Politics Made Simple. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back for part two of that discussion,

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Dr. Joe Moorcraft. It's good to be with you again. I enjoyed that last week. I did too, immensely.

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And for those of our listeners who missed our interview last week, tell our listeners about Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia.

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It's a small church plant. We began it about three years ago. People come from a variety of places.

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Some drive as far as three hours away. And it's a very small church, but a growing church and a godly church that stands inflexibly for the biblical and Reformed faith.

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And I plan to repeat this later to make sure that folks who have to leave this program early today get this information.

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The website is HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com. HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com.

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We hope that you look that up. And we hope that if you live anywhere near Cumming, Georgia, or if you're visiting that area on vacation, or visiting family, friends, or loved ones in that area, we hope that you pay a visit to Heritage Presbyterian Church.

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And of course, if you live near there and you don't have a solid biblical home for a church of your own, we would urge you to consider visiting there and hopefully even joining there.

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That's HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com. Well, I thoroughly enjoyed our discussion, as I already said last week, on Part 1 of With Liberty and Justice for All, Christian Politics Made Simple.

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And I would like you to start today's program with something that I think may be an introduction to people who don't know of this brother.

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Why don't you tell us about who Larry McDonald was and the meaning of his life and death.

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As you know, there's a chapter on him in that book. Larry McDonald was a very good friend of mine.

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He was in the United States Congress for about 14 years, and he was on the

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Korean airliner in 1983 that was shot down by a

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Soviet MiG fighter. And he either died or was taken into captivity into Russia, but we haven't seen anybody on that airline.

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We don't really know exactly what happened. But he was probably, in my lifetime, the most conservative member of the

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United States House of Representatives. I can remember one time sitting at a lunch table with him and a couple other congressmen, and they were talking about Judeo -Christian ethics and how important they were.

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And Larry McDonald looked at them and said, There's no such thing as Judeo -Christian ethics.

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There's God's law contained in the Bible. Great. Amen. Yeah, that's the kind of man he was.

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And I ran for his seat several years later and lost, but he was a great congressman.

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He was the only congressman that I know of that wrote a book on the Constitution while he was holding office.

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And I don't think it's in print anymore, but it was a great little book.

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And I had the privilege of preaching his memorial service, and we had thousands of people there from all over the place, of course.

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And by God's grace, the sermon was put up in the Atlantic Constitution newspaper completely.

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So it was able to reach millions of more people. I'm sure that was not the intent of the

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Atlantic Constitution newspaper, but it was able to reach millions of people.

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Now, what would you say, in your opinion, would be the greater impact upon not only the

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United States, but how did this nation react to this, and what do you think the impact upon basically the world, this kind of horrific event has really taken place here?

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You mean the shoot -down of the airline? Yes. Well, that is a very interesting question.

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I'm not sure it had much of an impact, except on people who knew him. He was the most knowledgeable and outspoken anti -communist during the

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Cold War. And other intelligence agencies would come to him for information, so that he was far more important than the average person outside of Georgia would understand.

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When the airline was shot down and Reagan, whom I greatly admire, announced it on television, he didn't even mention

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Larry McDonald's name. He was a sitting congressman of the United States. Wow. But he was far more conservative than Reagan, of course.

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And so I don't think it had that big an impact, except it removed the most effective anti -communist speaker in the

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Western world. And how did our nation react to the Soviet Union after that?

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Well, he would always say, Larry McDonald would always say, there's more communists in the West than there are in the

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East. That in the old Soviet Union, most people were not communists, they were slaves.

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But in the United States and the West, in colleges and universities, you had all these professors and media people, just like you do today, that held to the basic principles of Marxism.

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When I ran for Congress, we put out a poll, this was 1986, that had one question on it.

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And it was a scientific poll. And the question was, is the following sentence in the

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United States Constitution, quote, from each according to his ability, to each according to his need, unquote, which is a summary of communism.

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60 % of Americans said yes, it is in the

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United States Constitution. And of course today, we have a whole political party that is self -consciously committed to a

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Marxist understanding of life. And besides that party, you have people in the other party who knowingly or unknowingly also hold basic Marxist principles.

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Yeah, it is quite interesting that for most of my life, I'm 58, for the vast majority of my life that I can remember,

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Democrats would always scoff and mock conservatives for daring to make the ridiculous and slanderous and laughably absurd accusation that their ideology resembled in any way communism.

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And now, we just had Bernie Sanders nearly, you know, be the, he was the frontrunner for a while and he nearly could have won the

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Democratic Party primaries. Yes, and not only that, but there are no centrists in the

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Democrat Party. They are all to the left. In fact, they've made, the

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Democrat Party has made a statement to the world that if you do not believe in abortion, we don't want you in the

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Democrat Party. You don't belong here. In fact, Governor Andrew Cuomo doesn't even want you in New York.

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Yeah, well, I know it. And so, it is already socialist.

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But Bernie Sanders isn't a Democrat with a D. He's a socialist with an F from Vermont in that he is from the

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Socialist Party. Makes no bones about it. But the Democrat Party is also self -consciously socialist.

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Now, what's interesting is that they accuse conservatives of being fascists.

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But it's the socialists. It is the Marxists that are fascists.

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A fascist is somebody who says, you can own your property, but we'll tell you what to do on that property.

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Right. Yes, it has been a long -standing myth that Nazism and fascism were right -wing and socialism and communism were left -wing.

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Now, the latter is true. But fascism and Nazism were not and are not the polar opposite of socialism and communism.

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No, and remember, the Nazi Party has the word socialist in it. Right, National Socialist Party.

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Yeah. So, they have the view of Hitler, that is, we'll own your property and you can do what you want onto it.

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And they have the view of Mussolini, you can own your property, but we'll tell you what to do on it.

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So, it's really the leftist today that is the fascist

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Nazi Marxist. And unfortunately, conservatives have fallen into the trap as well.

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President Trump says, this will never be a socialist nation, and I admire him when he says that. The only problem is, it already is.

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Right. Yes, he should definitely choose his words more carefully.

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In fact, what's interesting to show you the ignorance of Americans and politicians, and I make a big point of this in my book, the average politician and American and media person today would call this country a democracy.

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But the word democracy never occurs in the United States Constitution. It never occurs in the

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Declaration of Independence. It never occurs in the Pledge of Allegiance. And our founding fathers were very, very careful not to begin a monarchy or a democracy.

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They established a republic. You remember Benjamin Franklin's great words when he comes out of the

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Constitutional Convention and the lady says to him, what kind of government have you left us?

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And he said, a republic, ma 'am, if you can keep it. Well, we haven't kept it. Yes.

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Democracy is basically mob rule, is it not? That's literally the Greek words that comprise the word democracy.

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It is a government by the majority where the whims and fancies of the majority of people, controlled and manipulated by people of power, are the law of the land, whereas a republic is a nation not governed by the majority, but governed by law, constitutional law, that is obeyed and enforced by men elected by the people to obey and enforce that law.

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You know, when somebody is elected to Congress, he is inaugurated or presidency, and the question he is not asked when he is inaugurated is not, do you promise to obey and enforce the opinions of your constituency?

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He is asked, are you going to support and defend and apply the United States Constitution? And that there's all the difference in the world.

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I'll tell you a story very quickly about a man from Nicaragua several years ago that came to our

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Presbyterian meeting. He was a black Indian, and on the Atlantic coast of Nicaragua, there is an indigenous tribe of black

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Indians that have English as their first language and Spanish as their second.

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And this man showed up at our Presbyterian meeting, which is a meeting of all of our elders. None of us knew him.

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And we said, sir, we are glad you came here today, but why did you come? He said, well,

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I started a little church in Managua, Nicaragua, the capital. This was during the

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Sandinista Wars, when the Sandinista Marxists were trying to overthrow the established government of Nicaragua.

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And he said, I have a church in Managua, and one of your ministers gave us the

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Westminster Confession of Faith. And we started studying it. And we decided that we wanted to come under your care.

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And I said, well, that's wonderful, and we'd be glad to do it, but what appeals to you about our church government?

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He said, it's representative, and we want to show the people of Managua what a free republic looks like when you're able to elect your own leaders.

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Praise God. And that was such a threat that that little church was subverted and destroyed.

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So, the church is in Scripture an ecclesiastical republic.

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You have elders, and they're not elected to represent the doctrines of the congregation.

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They're elected and ordained to defend and uphold the doctrines of the

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Word of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the King of the Church. And so when our founding fathers founded the

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United States, they used a representative church government as the model for the

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United States Constitution. Now, why is it that democracy is such an appealing word that even many, many, many conservative

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Republicans and conservatives of other parties have become infatuated with it?

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I'm actually surprised how often I hear it repeated. I guess

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I shouldn't be surprised, because I'm upset about a lot of things that happen on Fox News. But, for instance, they're even calling, you're using the slogan for the 2020 election,

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Democracy 2020. That's their slogan. And my favorite host on that entire network,

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Tucker Carlson, frequently refers to America as a democracy. And he's a fairly brilliant guy, which surprises me.

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Yes, sir. Well, I think a lot of them do it out of ignorance, having gone to public schools and gone to major universities.

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And this has just been going on now for generations. But I think the reason that there has been this change is because you can see the democracies in ancient

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Greece. There were some democracies in ancient Greece, but every single one of them degenerated into a dictatorship, into a tyranny.

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Because in a nation where the majority rule, majorities are easily, easily manipulated and controlled by power brokers.

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And so I think those on the left do so deliberately. They want it to be a democracy.

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At least they want the people to think it's a democracy. Oh, yeah, they even want to destroy the Electoral College.

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Oh, of course they do. And that's the one thing keeping us from being a democracy. Right. That's the one institution that's causing us to continue to be a constitutional republic.

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If they succeed in destroying the Electoral College, America is through as we know it.

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Now, going back to Larry McDonald, I was just curious, how did

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President Reagan and the United States respond to the Soviet Union's terrorist attack on this airliner?

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They made some threats, but they didn't do anything significant. And my friends used to say to me, don't we know how to treat our enemies?

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And I said, well, you're making an assumption. You're making an assumption that the power brokers in the federal government see the

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Soviet Union as an enemy. And it does know how to treat its enemies.

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And during those years and later, many of American allies were betrayed by the

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United States, like Nicaragua. And Jimmy Carter, when he was president, blockaded

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Nicaragua. So ships could not disembark there because Jimmy Carter wanted the

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Sandinista communists to overthrow the legitimate pro -American

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Nicaraguan government. So I'm not a conspiratorialist.

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I believe there are conspiracies in this world, but they don't make any difference to the fact that God's providence governs everything, that you would expect a unity of some kind between those that stand against Christ and against his moral order.

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You know, Psalm 2 says, the kings of the earth and powerful men take counsel against the

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Lord and his anointed to try to break free from what they see as his chains, which is

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God's moral and social order. And these conspiracies, these attempts to unify the world in rebellion against God do not govern history.

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They don't call the shots. They come and go that it's God's providence that governs the day.

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God is called in Timothy the only wise sovereign, king of kings and Lord of lords, who governs everything that's going on, who has a purpose for everything that happens.

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In fact, this past Sunday at church, I read a text, because it does apply during these days, from Isaiah 45, where the

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Lord says, I am the Lord and besides me, there is no other. I create light and I create darkness.

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I create well -being and I create calamity. I am the

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Lord who does these things. And in this world of viruses, and of course, what's happening to our economy and to our nation and the lawlessness is a worse threat upon us than even this virus.

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That as we watch people try to destroy what this country was founded on, we still can take comfort that nobody is a threat to almighty

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God. That what it says also in Psalm 2, it says that the rebellion of his people against him,

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I mean the rebellion of these power brokers against him, he who sits in the heavens laughs, not because he thinks it's funny, but God laughs in contempt at all their efforts and he shall break them by his scepter of iron.

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So I look forward to the future with hope, with a sense of security. I don't know what's going to happen in the long run.

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We deserve more bad things happening that we're even getting because of killing 60 million unborn babies.

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And the thing that I hope that Christians bear in mind that listen to your show is the spiritual condition of the church determines the condition of the nation in which that church exists.

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So if the church of God is backslidden, apostate, compromised, we can expect the culture around it to be apostate and compromised.

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We cannot expect any real cure for our social, economic, political problems until there is repentance on the part of the church of God.

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And I hope and pray that during this virus and during these dark days that the church will see that God is hopefully driving

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His church to repentance. I know one thing that has been accomplished and that is that millions of children are no longer in public schools and they're being homeschooled.

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And hopefully that after this is all over they'll continue to homeschool their children and public schools will go bankrupt.

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That would be great. You said something that reminded me of something that my dear friend

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Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries Yes, sir. He repeated it often after the terrorist attack on 9 -11 in 2001.

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He said, I've been hearing a lot of God bless

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America from many conservatives and even conservative Christians. But what we should be saying is

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God bless America with repentance. Amen, that's exactly correct.

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And throughout the history of the United States the pulpit has been the most powerful influence.

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In the old days it was the most powerful influence for good. Now it's the most powerful influence for evil by the liberal humanistic preachers as well as the compromised evangelical preachers who think that they are to limit their preaching and not preach on the various issues that we're having to face today.

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I love what Francis Schaeffer said. Francis Schaeffer said and he was quoting

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Martin Luther who said, regardless of how eloquent and loudly

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I defend the faith if I do not defend those doctrines that are under attack in my lifetime

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I have not said a thing. And that's my attitude.

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I blame the preachers. I preached a sermon the other day that said I'm more afraid of preachers than Muslims because preachers have compromised the faith and they've been silenced and their congregations are kept in ignorance.

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And so I would like to call preachers that are listening to repentance above all.

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A repentance in the pulpit. People will turn back to the old faith of the fathers and of the

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Protestant Reformation. They'll preach with passion and power and courage. And God will bless that kind of preaching.

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God will bless that kind of preaching to save individuals and to transform culture.

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I preached last Sunday on 2 Timothy chapter 1 the last part of that chapter.

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And Paul was explaining the gospel and explaining what the gospel would accomplish and how powerful

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God is in applying that gospel. And then after saying all these great things about the gospel and the power of God in it and the salvation to everyone who believes he says, and it's to this gospel

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I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher. In other words, just like it was in Paul's day today it is the power of the preaching of the word of God that will bring the church to repentance by the power of the

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Holy Spirit. Somebody asked me once who my favorite preachers were and they thought

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I was going to say some famous people. But I said, you wouldn't know them. They're pastors of small churches that faithfully expound the word of God every

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Sunday. Praise God. Like Handel said in quoting the

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Psalms Handel and Messiah great is the company of the preachers.

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Amen. We're going to our first break right now and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Dr.

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Joe Moorcraft on his book, With Liberty and Justice for All Christian Politics Made Simple our email address is

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ChrisArnzen at gmail .com C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com

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Please, as always, give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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By the way, we have limited copies of the book that we are addressing today

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With Liberty and Justice for All to give to first -time let me phrase this correctly first -time questioners on this book.

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In other words, if you won a copy last week when Dr. Moorcraft was on the program we're not going to send you a second book but you could still submit a question we will honor your your email and we will read the question, of course, if we have time to do so you just can't win two books that's all

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I'm giving you a little caveat there about so don't expect a second book if you're writing in for the second time but if you are asking

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Dr. Moorcraft a question for the first time as long as we still have copies of the book available you will receive one and that's chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com and by the way I want to thank our friends at comprehensivechristianity .com

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comprehensivechristianity .com for providing us with these free copies of With Liberty and Justice for All don't go away, we'll be right back after these messages with Dr.

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Joe Moorcraft and more of With Liberty and Justice for All, Christian Politics Made Simple When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the

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We are now back with part two of a discussion that we began last week with Dr.

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Joe Moorcraft, pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia. We are discussing part two of our discussion on With Liberty and Justice for All, Christian Politics Made Simple, which is also the title of one of his books.

40:35

And we do have a first -time questioner from Hercules, California.

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His name is either Alexander or Alexandre. I can't tell from the spelling because it ends in R -E.

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So it's either Alexander or Alexandre. But he asks,

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Hello, I have a question for Reverend Joe Moorcraft today. If he is questioned to explain the two -kingdom theology controversy,

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I'd like him to comment as a follow -up on the difference between what's called radical two -kingdom theology and he's referring to Dr.

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Michael Horton, a friend of mine with whom I disagree as well as agree on many things, from what's considered

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Reformed two -kingdom theology, a position distinct from the

41:27

Kuyperian one -kingdom, but also better aligned with Reformed thought. This person has actually, has obviously done their homework on two -kingdom theology,

41:37

Joe, but if you could. That is a very important question. It's an important issue that Christians have to be precise on.

41:48

I love what Spurgeon said. He said discernment is not the ability to distinguish right from wrong.

41:57

It is the ability to distinguish right from almost right. That's great.

42:04

Isn't that great? And so that's why that's such an important question to ask. The two -kingdom theory is the view that there are two kingdoms.

42:16

One is the state and the other is the church. And the kingdom of the church is accountable to obey the

42:28

Bible. And the kingdom of the state is not accountable to obey the

42:35

Bible, but to obey the conclusions of human reason. So in that view, as you can see, there's several terrible things with it.

42:45

It cuts itself loose from the Word of God. And I know some people that believe in this two -kingdom theory that are

43:02

Evangelical Christians and even Reformed Christians. Doesn't it find it's...

43:08

I'm sorry, go ahead. And who personally are against homosexuality as sexual perversion.

43:14

But they are not against the legalization of homosexuality. Because the state is not accountable to the

43:23

Word of God. There used to be anti -sodomy laws in the state of Georgia until just recently.

43:32

And some of my friends asked a leading conservative

43:37

Christian politician if he was for the sodomy laws, anti -sodomy laws in the state of Georgia.

43:46

And he said no. Because the Bible is not to regulate politics.

43:52

Now that is the view also of historical Roman Catholicism. That the

43:58

Bible is not to regulate politics. Really? That's a Roman Catholic view? Why were there so many martyrs?

44:06

Well, that goes even before then. Actually, many of those martyrs were martyred by the

44:11

Roman Catholic Church. But anyway, here's how it can be refuted.

44:19

Number one, the Bible is authoritative on everything about which it speaks, and it speaks about everything.

44:26

It's not simply a book that tells you how to keep from going to hell when you die, though praise the

44:31

Lord it is that. It is a book that tells you how to put together creation. And it guides us, or should guide us, in every area of our thinking to make sure that our every thought is held captive by the

44:45

Word of God. The Bible is said to be a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path.

44:52

And when we walk in any direction outside that light, we walk in darkness. So we as Christians, Evangelicals and Reformed Christians, speak of the sufficiency of Scripture.

45:03

That we don't need any more prophets, we don't need any additions to the Scripture. It is of all sufficient, life -wide, universal authority.

45:12

And the second thing is, Jesus Christ's Lordship is not limited to the church or to the family.

45:21

He is, as Revelation 1 -5 says, He is the ruler of the kings of the earth.

45:28

He is the King of kings and Lord of lords. That's a political statement. That He is the one to whom all political authorities in this world are accountable.

45:38

And they are to live in submission to Him. So on those two pillars, crashes the two kingdom theory.

45:49

Jesus is of universal Lordship and we are to proclaim that Lordship in every area of life.

45:56

And the Bible is of life -wide authority and we are to walk in the light of the

46:01

Bible in every area of life. One of the reasons that the

46:06

Lutheran Church in Germany during World War II was not as outspoken as it should have been against Hitler is because they had this two kingdom theory.

46:18

And they didn't think that they were supposed to call Hitler to repentance and to believe in the

46:24

Word of God and to obey the Word of God. And in this country our preaching is sterile.

46:36

If we are not seeking to preach the Lordship of Christ and the life -wide authority of the

46:44

Word of God, the church has surrendered. It began surrendering in the early 20th century with the rise of modernism.

46:54

Rather than maintaining its historic emphases, it saw its responsibility as retreating within the walls of a castle and throwing hand grenades over the wall every now and then, but taking a defensive posture and leaving the rest of society and culture to be informed and shaped by the humanists and the modernists.

47:17

We surrendered in the early part of the 20th century. We have lost relevance ever since then until the last part of the 20th century when we have started to regain that relevance again, thankfully, because of the influence of the writings of a man named

47:33

R .J. Rushduty. It has been interesting to me that over the most recent presidential elections,

47:41

I know of one, two, three. I know of three credible presidential candidates from the

47:49

Republican Party and other third parties that said when they were asked, who has influenced you the most, and they all said

47:57

R .J. Rushduty. Wow, I didn't know that. Yeah. And one of them said

48:03

R .J. Rushduty or Francis Schaeffer. But he's not known among the greater evangelical community to our detriment.

48:11

Right. A lot of people have a knee -jerk reaction to something that they're not familiar with. People have a fear of Christian Reconstructionism and theonomy because they have a caricature that they've...

48:24

That is true. And it's been deliberately caricatured by people so that people will not want to involve themselves in engagement with culture and with society and speaking to the evils that dominate this society and that's dragging this society down.

48:45

Socialism, abortion, homosexuality, and all the rest. There's nothing new about the desire to speak the word of God into culture.

48:57

Nothing new about it at all. It's just old Protestant theology and application that the worldview of the

49:06

Protestant Reformation is that Jesus is Lord of all, everything is accountable to him, the

49:13

Bible is authoritative over everything, and everything in all of life is accountable to obey the word of God.

49:21

I tell people, and of course I have been politically involved having run for Congress, but I tell people that the

49:30

Christian's goal must not simply be to have a conservative president, and it's not even enough to have a conservative

49:40

Supreme Court, and it's not even enough to make sure that our laws are based upon the law of God in the

49:48

Bible. That a Christian is called in this country to profess with his mouth that this country belongs to God.

50:01

Poland just said that. President of Poland just said that Poland belongs to Jesus Christ.

50:08

The President or Prime Minister of Hungary is a devout Reformed Christian who has announced to the

50:15

European Union, if you want to return to Christian Europe, come to Hungary. They have forbidden

50:22

Muslims to come in their country. They have outlawed abortion, and they have cut income tax for people that are having babies.

50:33

As a result, the birth rate in Hungary is one of the fastest growing birth rates in the world.

50:40

In this country, this country was dedicated to God on the Mayflower.

50:46

Every early colony in this country has in its constitution a submission to God and to God's law contained in the scriptures.

50:56

That's nothing new. That's nothing unusual. That Christians must seek to apply and stand for the

51:03

Lordship of Christ in every area of life. I had a congressman, I took a congressman out to eat a few years ago, a young guy that was running for Congress, and he eventually won.

51:16

I may have said this last week, but I asked him a lot of questions, and he was basically a conservative

51:22

Republican. But then I asked him this question. I said, being a Christian, Mr. So -and -so, when you get elected to Congress and you're in the will of the

51:32

Congress, how are you going to represent the Crown Rights of Christ the King?

51:38

He said, well, I've never been asked that before. I said,

51:43

I didn't figure you had, so let me take the next hour to explain what I mean. And Christians cannot be neutral.

51:54

There's nothing neutral about Christianity, Jesus is for me or against me. Between those two poles, there is no neutral ground.

52:02

And when we seek to be neutral, and we leave our Christianity outside the door or outside the voting booth, or outside the office, or outside the school, we're not being neutral.

52:17

We are surrendering to the status quo of this culture. Rush Duda used to say that when a judge does not govern in terms of God's law, he is a hatchet man for the status quo.

52:36

And how we have seen that. And Gary North used to say that when humanists started going after America to convert her to anti -Christianity from her

52:48

Christian base, the humanists went after the robes. Now, who wears robes in our culture?

52:57

Preachers, judges, and professors. They knew that if they could change the mind of ministers, judges, and professors, that everything else would fall in line.

53:13

There's nothing neutral about liberalism. When they say they're religiously neutral, they are not telling the truth and they know it.

53:21

By the way, let's pick up on that as soon as we come back from our midway break, which we have to enter into now.

53:28

Folks, please be patient with us as we take this longer than normal break. It is required of us to have this break because Grace Life Radio, who airs this program twice daily in a pre -recorded format, in morning drive and also from 8 to 10 p .m.

53:45

in the evening, they have to, by FCC regulations, localize their programming to Lake City, Florida.

53:53

So while we air our globally heard commercials in the middle of the show, they air their own public service announcements and other things that localize

54:02

Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM Lake City, Florida to that area of the country.

54:08

So please be patient as we do this. Also, please make use of this time, make wise use of this time, by writing down the information for as many of our advertisers as you can so you can more frequently and more successfully patronize them.

54:26

Remember, folks, like I was saying earlier in the program in regard to Solid Ground Christian Books, Solid -Ground -Books .com,

54:36

every time you purchase a book from them, you're helping Iron Sharpens Iron Radio remain on the air for a longer future because we rely upon their advertising to exist, and that goes for all of our advertisers.

54:49

So it might even mean that you're just writing a letter to a pastor of a church that's nowhere near you, you can't visit them or join them, but you can write them a letter, tell them thank you for supporting

55:01

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, but when you can actually patronize them, especially when it's a business, please do so as often as you can.

55:09

Write down the information that they provide so you can do that, and also write down a question for Dr. Joe Moorcraft on With Liberty and Justice for All, Christian Politics Made Simple, and send it to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

55:21

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away, we'll be right back after these messages. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

55:41

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

55:52

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world.

56:00

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

56:06

God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

56:11

God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.

56:26

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

56:34

.com. That's gcbcnj .squarespace

56:40

.com. Or call them at 908 -996 -7654.

56:47

That's 908 -996 -7654. Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

57:11

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

57:17

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

57:25

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the NASB.

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I'm Rev. Buzz Taylor, author of God's Lawson, and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Dr. William Webster, pastor of Grace Bible Church in Battleground, Washington, founder of the ministry

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Christian Resources, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.

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I'm Pastor Ryan Golan of Central Islip Community Church in Central Islip, New York, and the

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NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Brandon Smith of Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Jackson, Georgia, and the

58:25

NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?

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Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.

59:28

We know we were made for so much more than ordinary life.

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Blending faith, finances, and generosity. That's the Thrive It Story.

01:00:06

Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here. I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

01:00:13

His name is Dan Buttafuoco. Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

01:00:21

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently he wrote a book titled

01:00:26

Consider the Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword.

01:00:32

Dan also has a master's degree in theology. Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states.

01:00:39

He represents many Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

01:00:47

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more, and in approximately 10 different states.

01:01:00

In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the

01:01:10

Law Journal. If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state,

01:01:17

I recommend that you call Dan. Consultations are free. There is no fee unless you win.

01:01:24

Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878.

01:01:31

Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:01:37

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. I'm Dr.

01:01:51

Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

01:02:02

Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Janssen and Christopher McDowell.

01:02:09

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

01:02:26

Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

01:02:33

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

01:02:42

For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.

01:02:49

That's hopereformedli .net. Or call 631 -696 -5711.

01:02:58

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

01:03:17

One sure way all Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers.

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Or go to BatteryDepot .com. That's BatteryDepot .com. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

01:04:58

If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.

01:05:08

And besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered post -Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding.

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No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post -Tenebrous

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Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan. All his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching.

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Jeffrey uses the finest and buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors like the turquoise goatskin tanned in Italy used for my

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Nestle All -in -28 edition with a navy blue goatskin inside liner and the electric blue goatskin from a

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French tannery used to rebind a Reformation Study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.

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Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather, making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.

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For more details on post -Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding, go to PTLBibleRebinding .com.

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That's PTLBibleRebinding .com. This is

01:06:29

Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

01:06:35

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron radio financially.

01:06:43

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

01:06:56

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

01:07:03

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

01:07:16

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

01:07:25

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

01:07:34

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

01:07:40

Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.

01:07:50

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned us in. We are interviewing today, for the second time in two weeks,

01:07:59

Dr. Joe Moorcraft, who is the pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia.

01:08:07

And we are discussing his book, With Liberty and Justice for All, Christian Politics Made Simple.

01:08:14

If you have a question for Dr. Moorcraft, send it in to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com,

01:08:20

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And please, as always, give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:08:34

USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

01:08:40

We're going to be returning to our discussion with Dr. Moorcraft momentarily. I just have some important announcements to make first.

01:08:49

Tomorrow, we have as a guest, after a long absence on this program,

01:08:55

Judy Rogers. She actually is the sister -in -law of today's guest, Dr.

01:09:00

Joe Moorcraft. Judy Rogers is a remarkably talented singer, songwriter, and musician, and has been known, especially amongst

01:09:11

Reformed Christians, for decades as being a favorite Christian recording artist.

01:09:17

And we're going to be discussing being a Christian singer and songwriter and musician in the 21st century as a

01:09:27

Christian. And we're going to be playing some of her music, both old and new, and we hope that you tune in for that tomorrow on Iron Troupe and Zion Radio.

01:09:38

Then, for the first time on Thursday, we have Ron Dart on the program.

01:09:43

He is the editor of the new book, Myth and Meaning in Jordan Peterson, a

01:09:50

Christian Perspective. And in this book, a number of authors, including

01:09:56

Ron Dart, contribute to dispelling the errors on both extremes, both the pro and con side, in regard to Jordan Peterson.

01:10:11

So we hope that you join us for that. On Friday, we are going to be resuming our new weekly feature with Pastor Joe Jackowitz of Christ Bible Church in Pleasanton, California, where we will be giving you updates on the coronavirus.

01:10:26

And Monday and Tuesday of next week, my friend Jeff Thomas, who was pastor of the

01:10:33

Alfred Place Baptist Church in Everest with Wales for half a century before his retirement, and he is well -known and beloved amongst

01:10:43

Reformed Christians globally and is perhaps very well -known for his connections with Banner of Truth.

01:10:52

He is going to be our guest on Monday and Tuesday next week, and we have other guests next week as well.

01:10:58

In fact, this is a little insider tip right now.

01:11:05

Next Thursday, that will be the 2nd of April, we are going to be giving away free copies of a monumental book.

01:11:14

I believe it's about 400 pages long. Wow, it's actually longer than 400 pages.

01:11:21

It is nearly 900 pages long, hardback, The History and Theology of Calvinism by Kurt Daniel.

01:11:29

Kurt Daniel is our guest next Thursday, so mark those interviews down on your calendar.

01:11:38

As far as we know, even in the midst of all the quarantines and the banning of public gatherings, as far as we know, we are still going to be conducting the next

01:11:53

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon on Friday, May 29th, 11 a .m.

01:11:59

to 2 p .m. at the Bongiorno Conference Center in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Our guest speaker,

01:12:04

God willing, is going to be Dr. Conrad Mbewe. He has never been the guest speaker at the luncheons before.

01:12:11

I'm so thrilled about this because Dr. Mbewe has been a dear friend since 1995, and I believe he is the most powerful preacher alive on the planet

01:12:20

Earth. A pastor of Kabwatha Baptist Church, Lusaka, Zambia, Africa. Former vice chancellor, or actually the former chancellor of African Christian University, where he is now a lecturer.

01:12:34

I urge you, if you are a man in ministry leadership, you have to be a man in ministry leadership, whether you're a pastor, an elder, a deacon, parachurch leader, whatever your leadership position is, and you are a man, we would love to have you join us for this event.

01:12:49

It's absolutely free of charge. As I said, it's Friday, May 29th, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m.

01:12:55

at the Bongiorno Conference Center in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. And not only will you be hearing

01:13:01

Dr. Mbewe for free, not only will you be dining on a sumptuous meal provided by Bongiorno Conference Center for free, you'll also be leaving that event with a heavy sack of brand new books selected by me personally, which have been donated by major Christian publishers all over the

01:13:18

United States and the United Kingdom. So it is well worth your while if you can make it to Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

01:13:25

I would do whatever you can to make it, whether you take a plane, train, or automobile, or parachute, or any other means that you can get there.

01:13:35

Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put luncheon in the subject line and I will register you immediately.

01:13:44

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com and once again, it's absolutely free of charge. This is the time of the program that I hate the most.

01:13:54

I don't hate any other part of the program other than this. But I have to beg you for money because we are in urgent need of your donations.

01:14:05

Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio has been hit very hard by this coronavirus scare as many people across our nation and globe have been.

01:14:17

Businesses have been shut down and people may be losing their livelihoods and I have heard it accurately said, in fact

01:14:24

I think even President Trump said that he fears that the cure is worse than the disease.

01:14:31

So this is no exception here at Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. Two of our largest financial supporters have informed us that they will have to hold off indefinitely, they hope for no more than three months but they don't really know.

01:14:48

And it has really been disastrous for us so I'm asking you to please do whatever you can do to help make up for that if you love the show and don't want it to disappear.

01:15:01

If you have extra money sitting around collecting interest in the bank or if you have money that you used to use for recreational purposes to attend sporting events and to dine at restaurants, things that you can't do now, please use a portion of that money to give to Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio and again

01:15:19

I repeat, if you do indeed love the show and don't want it to disappear, please never ever ever siphon money away from your regular giving to your local church in order to give to Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

01:15:31

It actually grieves me deeply that there are churches who have their giving gone down to 25 % or less of what it used to be.

01:15:44

I've heard from pastor friends of mine because their congregants are forced to watch live streaming of their worship services and since they're not physically present they haven't been giving many of them.

01:15:59

It grieves me that that is occurring and never siphon money away from your regular giving to your local church to give to Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio because providing financially for your church is a command of God and also never put your family in financial jeopardy by giving to Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio because providing for your home, your family is a command of God.

01:16:20

Providing for this show is obviously not a command of God but as I keep repeating if you love the show and you have extra money above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands providing for church and home then please give as frequently as you can and as generously as you can to Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio go to ironsharpensironradio .com

01:16:40

click support then click click to donate now or you can mail in a check the old fashioned way via snail mail make the check out to Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio I want to thank those of you who have come to the rescue and have been giving some of you for the first time during this time when we need your donations most

01:17:01

I want to thank from the very depths of my heart Dr. Joe Moorcraft and the elders and congregation at Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming Georgia for the very generous gift

01:17:11

I just received in the mail today from them and it was a Godsend and is a

01:17:18

Godsend and I thank you Dr. Moorcraft for putting the wheels in motion for that gift to be sent my way but please go to ironsharpensironradio .com

01:17:30

click support then click to donate now and we are in your debt for your generosity if you do so and we thank you from the depths of our hearts also if you want to advertise with us send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:17:45

and put advertising in the subject line we would love to help you launch an ad campaign as long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe you don't have to believe identically with me but you need to be promoting something that's at least compatible with what we believe and also folks if you are not a member of a local bible believing church and you're not even prayerfully looking for one you've got to rectify that you're living in rebellion against God there's no two ways about it

01:18:12

I don't want to candy coat something as serious as that so if you need help finding a church send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:18:20

I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world I've already helped quite a number of people in fact nearly every week

01:18:27

I help someone in the ironsharpensironradio audience find a church near them and many have visited these churches and joined them many have visited these churches while they are on vacation and many have referred these churches to their family, friends, and loved ones who do not have a church of their own in all parts of the planet earth so if that is something that describes you, you need a church for one of those reasons or any reason send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:18:57

and put I need a church in the subject line that's also the email address where you can send in a question to Dr.

01:19:03

Joe Moorcraft chrisarnsen at gmail .com c h r i s a r n z e n at gmail .com

01:19:10

some of you have been sending in questions without giving us your city and state of residence and you're not even remaining anonymous so please remember to give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside of the

01:19:28

USA and we'd love to hear from you as soon as possible we do have a listener,

01:19:36

Dr. Moorcraft from Hartsdale, New York Bobby in Hartsdale, New York and he says you were criticizing the two kingdom theory before and I'm not really sure 100 % where I stand on it but isn't this theory of the two kingdoms attributed to Martin Luther himself, the great reformer

01:19:59

I was hoping nobody would bring that up laughter well there are a lot of things as much as we admire

01:20:07

Luther Martin Luther did hold that view as over against the rest of the reformation,

01:20:14

Calvin, Knox, all the rest he did hold that view but praise the Lord, like somebody said, viva la inconsistency.

01:20:24

Yeah, one of the most baffling inconsistencies about Martin Luther is that he believed in baptismal regeneration while at the same time believing in sola fide and sola gratia, so go figure that out.

01:20:34

Yeah, well he loved the law of God, and so as a result, though he believed in the two kingdom view, and that's where it originated, as well as in Roman Catholicism, he was not consistent, and when

01:20:49

I say Roman Catholicism, what they believe historically, at least in the past several generations, is that natural law interpreted by human reason governs the state, and the

01:21:06

Bible governs the church. They assume they're both compatible with each other.

01:21:13

The problem is that human reason is not neutral, and it is not looking for laws to obey, and there is only one source of law, and that is the law of God found in Holy Scripture, so this view today of the two kingdom view in Protestantism originated with Martin Luther, but it's worse today than it is, and these reformed, so to me, all forms of two kingdom view are terrible, because they cut the state loose to do whatever it thinks reason will let them do, or whatever it has the power to do, and that's where we are today.

01:22:02

Whatever the state is, it's when you cut yourself loose from the moral absolutes of Scripture, the only thing left for politics is power, and that is the goal of both parties, to get, keep, and expand power, and promise whatever you have to promise to do it.

01:22:25

There's no real commitment to moral absolutes, and when you lay those aside, and when

01:22:31

God is no longer your lawgiver, man becomes the lawgiver, and when man becomes the lawgiver, he calls evil what

01:22:40

God calls good, and he calls good what God calls evil. God says that abortion, to give you just a couple examples,

01:22:48

God says abortion is murder of unborn human beings. Modern man says it's a compassionate alternative for a woman who doesn't want to go through the trauma of childbirth.

01:22:57

God says that homosexuality is gross sexual perversion. Today it is an authentic lifestyle, and when you have the state having the power of the sword, and it doesn't have any real commitment to the moral absolutes of Scripture, it will use that sword to protect evil men from good men.

01:23:19

You see that very easily when you see who's punished on the sidewalks in front of an abortion clinic.

01:23:28

Who's considered the disturber? The abortionist, or the Christians outside on the sidewalk demonstrating against abortion.

01:23:38

So when God is rejected as the source of law, and his law found in Holy Scripture, everything is topsy -turvy.

01:23:48

There was a Scotsman by the name of Samuel Rutherford. Samuel Rutherford lived in the middle 1600s, and he wrote a book.

01:23:58

One of the most important books written by men. It's called Lex Rex, which is

01:24:03

Latin for the law is king. And he picked that title because it was directly opposed to the claim of the monarchs of England, which was

01:24:14

Rex Lex. That the king is the source of law, the state is the source of law.

01:24:20

So Samuel Rutherford wrote that book, and it was so hated that the first edition was burned.

01:24:26

And if you can find the first edition of Lex Rex, it's worth thousands of dollars. But he said, among other things, he said in that book, or one of the reasons the kings of England didn't like it is because Samuel Rutherford said that if God is going to bless

01:24:43

England and Scotland, we've got to be able to elect our kings, as they did in the

01:24:50

Old Testament. Now the average Christian today doesn't even know that the kings of the Old Testament in Israel, Old Testament Israel, were elected.

01:24:59

But he said three things that are so important, and I hope that those of you listening will write this on the inside of your eyelids.

01:25:09

He said three things. And by the way, Lex Rex was a bestseller in the colonies in 1776.

01:25:17

In other words, in 1776, Americans didn't see anything radical or extreme about this book.

01:25:25

This was the consensus of opinion. It was a bestseller. A hundred years after Samuel Rutherford wrote it in America.

01:25:33

But anyway, he said three things that Americans used to believe. Now only a minority believe it.

01:25:43

He said, number one, only God can distinguish good from evil, and he's done so in the

01:25:51

Bible. If you leave it up to man, man will call evil good and good evil.

01:25:56

Only God can distinguish good from evil, and he's done so in the Bible. Number two, only

01:26:02

God can define a criminal act. What's crime? And he's done so in the

01:26:08

Bible. You leave it up to man, and criminal acts will be highly arbitrary things.

01:26:16

And thirdly, only God can define how crime is to be punished justly, and he's done so in the

01:26:25

Bible. Leave it up to man to determine how crime is to be punished, and his punishment will be barbaric and inhumane.

01:26:34

So those are three principles. Colonial America believed, or committed to, that we've got to recommit ourselves to, or we'll be of no help whatsoever in trying to recapture

01:26:46

America. We won't even know what's going on. We won't even know what to criticize and what not to criticize.

01:26:51

Only God can distinguish good from evil, and he's done so in the Bible. Only God can define what a criminal act is, and he's done so in the

01:26:59

Bible. And only God can define how crime is to be punished justly, and he's done so in the

01:27:05

Bible. Now, that is a minority opinion today in America. If you don't believe that, go ask some of your friends.

01:27:12

If they believe those three things, you'll be shocked. But that's where we've got to go. You know,

01:27:18

Spurgeon again, discernment is the ability to distinguish right from almost right, and we've got to be committed to those historic, biblical truths that once governed a person's worldview, particularly in the

01:27:37

West, although the West has fallen tremendously, but particularly in Northern Europe and in North America as a result of the

01:27:47

Protestant Reformation. And there is a couple good books that I would recommend.

01:27:55

One is a small paperback by Rush Dudy called Law and Liberty, showing the relationship between them.

01:28:05

Another is a little larger paperback called By This Standard by Greg Bonson.

01:28:11

I'll tell you a quick story. Before the fall of the old Soviet Union, there was a little lady from my church that decided she was going to go to Georgia, USSR.

01:28:25

And she was eccentric, and she didn't have anybody to go with, but she had a lot of money.

01:28:31

So she, on her own, just went to USSR, Georgia. And she took my little book,

01:28:38

With Liberty and Justice for All, with her. And she went to this

01:28:45

Russian Baptist Church, and she gave the book to the janitor.

01:28:51

Well, of course, the janitor could not read English. So the janitor gave it to the preacher, who could not read

01:28:59

English. So the preacher gave it to a university professor.

01:29:05

This was during the Soviet Union, not after the collapse, but during the Soviet Union. And there was a professor in that church, a little

01:29:15

Baptist church, a professor who taught at the University of Tbilisi, which is the main city in Georgia, USSR.

01:29:24

And he could read English. So the preacher gave my book to him. And several weeks later,

01:29:32

I received a letter from him. And he said,

01:29:38

Mr. Morecraft, I never knew there was a relationship between Christianity and politics until I read your book.

01:29:48

And I hope you don't mind, I use it as a text in my course at the university. I wish

01:29:55

I knew what happened to that man. That was when the Communists were still in control, and he was standing for the truth.

01:30:03

Praise God, though. I hope that you do get in touch with him eventually. Yes, sir. I hope he's still living. Providentially, you had mentioned,

01:30:12

I believe, the great Scotsman Samuel Rutherford. Well, speaking of Scotland, we do have a listener in Scotland right now in the

01:30:21

Western Isles, who says, so good to listen, as we are locked down by our government at this moment.

01:30:35

And Stuart says, so, Joe, why has capital punishment changed for Sabbath breaking, or has it?

01:30:47

And he hopes to see you again later in 2020. I've known that family for a long time.

01:30:55

They're some of our best friends. They live on the island of Lewis, which is several hours by ferry off the western coast of Scotland.

01:31:06

By the way, that's where Trump's mother is from. Oh, wow. Trump's mother was a young woman on that island when there was a great revival among the

01:31:14

Presbyterian churches. But anyway, that is an important subject.

01:31:23

And here we must walk by faith and not by sight. That is, this is going to test a person's commitment to the

01:31:31

Word of God. Are we going to believe it, or are we going to be pick and choose? If only

01:31:36

God can define how crime is to be punished, and he's done so in the

01:31:42

Bible, then we have to take seriously the various civil sanctions mentioned in the

01:31:49

Word of God. Now, how do we go about recapturing our country so as our laws will be based on the

01:32:02

Word of God? We don't believe that a small group of people should take over the government and then force its views upon everybody else.

01:32:16

I don't know anybody that believes that. In fact, that is the very caricature of Christian Reconstruction and theonomy that is most often hurled.

01:32:24

That's why I brought it up. I don't know anybody that believes that our goal is to have a small group of people grab power and then have a bloodbath.

01:32:39

Our goal and the goal of the Christian church should be to capture the hearts and minds of Americans with the gospel of Jesus Christ, to seek to save the lost and Christianize Christians.

01:32:51

And sometimes I think Christianizing Christians is harder than saving the lost. But we've got to get

01:32:58

Christians to think correctly. We've got to pray that God would use us by his grace to lead lost people to Jesus Christ.

01:33:09

And as that number of godly people increases in this country, county by county, congressional district by congressional district, on grassroots level, they start electing men to office that represent the law of God.

01:33:27

I knew a man in the state legislature of Georgia from a small little southern county in south

01:33:34

Georgia, rural farming community. And he would get elected to the state legislature year after year because all you had to do to get elected to that county was have about twelve or thirteen hundred votes.

01:33:47

And his church had fifteen hundred members. So he didn't have to leave his church.

01:33:55

And that's why I think we should start with grassroots. Our founding fathers,

01:34:01

I think, intended for counties to be the most powerful political unit. For instance,

01:34:07

Mecklenburg County, North Carolina, where Charlotte is, declared its independence from England before the

01:34:16

Declaration of Independence in 1776. It's called the

01:34:21

Mecklenburg Declaration. And they're very similar. Because Mecklenburg County then had the highest percentage of Scotch Irish Presbyterians in any county in the country.

01:34:37

And these people drank John Knox with their mother's milk. And John Knox, of course, was such a great defender of freedom and representative government, such an enemy of tyranny, that because of the strong presence in that county of godly people who took the

01:34:59

Bible and their Westminster Confession of Faith and John Knox seriously, they separated from England before the

01:35:05

Thirteen Colonies. So I think our focus must be on winning our counties for Christ.

01:35:17

Planting churches. I think the church, the local church, is the beachhead for the conquest of America.

01:35:27

It's the beachhead of Christian Reconstruction. Planting churches, not isolated individuals here and there, but planting and maintaining and growing strong local churches where the

01:35:39

Gospels preached, where you can have fellowship with each other, where discipline is administered, where the sacraments of baptism and Lord's Supper are performed.

01:35:49

And then as that church grows and its influence grows, things on a local level start to change.

01:35:57

Many years ago, I don't even know how many years ago, I was pastor of Calestine Presbyterian Church, and we moved to Cumming, Georgia.

01:36:10

And we didn't realize when we got this building, we didn't realize that literally across the street from the front door of the church was the only abortion clinic in the county.

01:36:24

Wow. So we assumed God put us there on purpose.

01:36:30

This abortionist would do late -term abortions. I mean, he was bloodthirsty.

01:36:39

And so we put a sign on our church, a big banner, canvas banner, that stood out that said, abortion kills babies.

01:36:53

And so that if you walked in the door of that abortion clinic, you had to see this sign literally right across the street.

01:37:01

And we would also hold prayer meetings on the sidewalk right in front of the abortion clinic. Well, the town fathers came to us and said,

01:37:11

Mr. Moorcraft, you can't put a sign up on your church without a sign permit. Well, I mean, every church in Cumming has some kind of sign.

01:37:21

So we got a lawyer in our church, and we said, we don't want to have to fight the city if we can keep from it.

01:37:29

So we said, check on the law. So he said, well, there is a law, municipal regulation, that says to have a sign in front of your church, you have to have a permit.

01:37:42

But there is a loophole. It says that if you have a licensed pickup truck, somebody owns, the church doesn't own it, but somebody owns that licensed pickup truck.

01:37:54

And it's parked in your parking lot. The city cannot control what's put in that bed of that truck.

01:38:03

So we had a guy in our church that had this old pickup truck, had a license on it. And we moved it even closer to the abortion clinic, right on the edge of our property within a few feet of the abortion clinic.

01:38:18

And we soldered in that truck a big sign that says, abortion kills babies.

01:38:27

And if you've been hurt by abortion, call this number. To make a long story short, the abortion clinic is no longer there.

01:38:39

And there is a friend of mine, a Reformed Baptist in Chattanooga named Charlie Wysong. Do you know that name?

01:38:45

Actually, I don't. Well, he's not a pastor of a church. But he's closed out,

01:38:54

I don't know how many abortion clinics in his life, single -handedly. He found out how, he found out that abortion clinics, by and large, cannot afford liability insurance.

01:39:08

Because it's so expensive. And so most abortion clinics don't at least then, did not have liability insurance.

01:39:17

So he put up these signs all over the place, says, if you've been hurt by abortion, call such and such a number.

01:39:24

You call that number, and you tell Charlie Wysong, and he would call the abortion clinic and just threaten them with a $2 million lawsuit.

01:39:34

Not bring a suit against them, just threaten them to sue them for $2 or $3 million. That threat would immediately shut down the abortion clinic.

01:39:45

So I don't know how many abortion clinics he shut down in his life. But that's where Americans, Christians must be on the front edge.

01:39:54

We must be not for the regulation of abortion, but for the abolition of it.

01:40:00

That America would treat abortion as what it is, murder, capital crime, and not be hesitant and not be reluctant.

01:40:10

There used to be a governor and U .S. senator from Georgia named, uh, oh, his name's flipped me right now.

01:40:21

He's a friend of mine, and he's not living anymore. Zell Miller. Zell Miller, for 40 years, was a liberal.

01:40:28

Liberal governor and liberal senator. Well, I have heard of that name. Well, Zell Miller, who was a friend of mine, was a liberal governor and a liberal senator.

01:40:38

Not pro -life or anything. And then God dealt with him in his older years.

01:40:46

And he completely changed and was aggressively pro -life and anti -abortion in his later years.

01:40:54

Hallelujah. And he would say, when it comes to abortion, silence is not golden, it is yellow.

01:41:05

Amen. By the way, we're going to have to have you pick up with Zell Miller right after our final break.

01:41:12

Okay. And by the way, I want to give a shout out to Gary Wagner, who contacted us last week during your interview.

01:41:21

He's a great man. Yeah, he, uh, he has sent in another question, but he sent in a question that Alexander has already asked about the two kingdoms, uh,

01:41:33

Alexander and Hercules, California. By the way, Alexander, give us your full mailing address, because you've won a free copy of With Liberty and Justice for All.

01:41:42

I just wondered, my friends are setting me up. We've got to go to the final break right now, and if you have a question, send it in immediately.

01:41:52

I can't promise you you'll get on, because we have a line here that's formed. But we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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01:47:27

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Welcome back, and we have a question from John right here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

01:47:38

John asks you, Dr. Moorcraft, with the socialist media that we have, how do you suggest we get accurate information that won't bust the bank?

01:47:51

Are there any solutions to undo the mess? We're competing against the whole media and educational system.

01:47:58

Well, John, you can start with regularly listening to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. True. That's a very important question, too.

01:48:06

Where you get your news is going to determine how you view things. And the fake news, which is everybody.

01:48:14

Fox News I listen to, and yet you can't always trust them. I get most of my news on the

01:48:21

Internet, various news periodicals. There are several places where you can find out what's going on in the world.

01:48:33

One is World Magazine. I think it's in Nashville, North Carolina, but it is a beautiful magazine.

01:48:42

Sponsor of the show. Oh, yeah, that's right. Well, World Magazine is one of the best places.

01:48:49

The New American Magazine is another magazine that gives an extensive analysis of the news.

01:48:59

That was edited at one time by my friend William Norman Grigg, who's now in eternity with Christ.

01:49:06

Yes, sir. I remember that. And because you know, Larry McDonnell used to be the president of the John Birch Society.

01:49:11

Oh, I did not know that. Yeah. And also Ron Paul's Liberty Report.

01:49:20

You can learn some good things there. He's a libertarian, but you can learn some very good things because he is a godly man.

01:49:27

And we should pray for his son, the best senator in the U .S. Senate that has coronavirus. So we should pray earnestly for him that he and his wife would be protected from any serious effects of it.

01:49:42

There are several places, but that's a very important question to ask. The other thing is, without hesitation,

01:49:51

I believe it, I will say, I believe it's child abuse to put your children in public schools. Can you imagine the

01:49:59

Israelites sending their children to the Philistines to be educated? Yeah, I remember an excellent quote by Voti Baucom, who said,

01:50:08

Why are we surprised as Christians when we send our children to Caesar to be educated that they come back home little

01:50:18

Romans? That is exactly right. I would expect my good friend

01:50:23

Voti Baucom to say that. But we must homeschool them.

01:50:28

We must Christian school them now. Praise the Lord that public schools are closed and where millions of young people are being brought home to be taught.

01:50:38

And I was talking to somebody yesterday evening who keeps up with what's going on, and she said that a lot of these parents who weren't homeschoolers says,

01:50:48

We're liking this so much, we're going to continue after the crisis passes. Amen. And so we've got, most

01:50:57

Christians don't have a Christian view of education. I have friends, I'll talk real quick because I know we're coming to the end.

01:51:03

I have friends who say, well, if we could just get the public schools back like they were when

01:51:08

I was young, back in the 40s and the 50s, and get rid of all the extreme things that are in public schools today, the drugs, sex, all that, and just go back to the way public schools were then.

01:51:20

And I have to tell them that in the 50s and the 40s, from the beginning, was still the worst thing about public schools, even without all the extremities.

01:51:34

The worst thing about state -supported education is that it teaches children that they can get a good education in life without Christ or the

01:51:47

Bible. Now is that what you want your children to learn? That they can get a good worldview, a good education, and they don't need to know about Christ, in whom is gathered all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, and they don't need the

01:52:03

Bible, which is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path. So the two worst things about public schools have been there from the very beginning.

01:52:11

That was the intention of public schools. People call public schools a failure. They're not a failure.

01:52:16

They are successful to their goals. And, of course, they should be called government schools. Of course, and because there's nothing private about Christian schools.

01:52:25

But the point is that the purpose of public schools was to dumb down the populace so that they would be good citizens and easily controlled by the state.

01:52:37

So if your children in public schools can't read, they can't do a math problem, they don't know anything about geography, it's not the failure of public schools.

01:52:48

It's the purpose of government -supported education to dumb down the

01:52:54

American populace. What it takes six hours for a public school student to learn, it takes three hours for a homeschooler to learn.

01:53:09

By the way, we have a listener for the first time, or at least a questioner for the first time, in Westchester, Ohio.

01:53:19

And if my memory serves me right, our listener, Dick Knodel, is a mutual friend of my very long -time dear friend

01:53:29

Bill Shishko. And he's a dear friend of mine, too. Great. And Dick is a board -certified clinical chaplain and counselor.

01:53:42

And he is with the Reformation International Theological Seminary on the doctoral committee.

01:53:54

And Dick asks or says, It's been fun listening to my old friend

01:54:00

Dr. Joe Moorcraft today. We're both older biblical Presbyterian pastors who have seen so many more problems than we wish we might have throughout our lives.

01:54:10

Could you ask Joe what he knows of President Trump and any evident faith that he might have?

01:54:18

I believe his situation is more complex than I know. I don't believe he understands the

01:54:24

Bible's Sabbath, yet he makes so many overtures to us as believers. What do you know?

01:54:30

Well, that's a very good question. And my response is he's a populist. He's not a liberal or conservative.

01:54:38

He's a populist. His Constitution is in his hip pocket. And what, meaning whatever he thinks.

01:54:46

And populists are going to do a lot of things right. He's also a traditionalist.

01:54:52

And so he is saying more Christian -like things than any president in my lifetime, including

01:54:58

Ronald Reagan. He's not afraid to be explicitly

01:55:04

Christian. He doesn't get it right all the time. Whether he's a personal believer or not,

01:55:10

I do not know. That's beyond my pay grade. But I do know that he has spoken out against abortion more than even

01:55:18

Reagan did. He has said on various holidays like Christmas, he's tried to give explicitly

01:55:26

Christian explanations of them. He's not afraid to deal with the press the way they ought to be dealt with as adversaries.

01:55:36

He's not afraid to say that America's federal government's responsibility is to take care of American citizens first rather than the world.

01:55:46

And that's thoroughly biblical. He's not a globalist. But he's not perfect. For instance,

01:55:53

I was very disappointed when he said that he was for the decriminalization of homosexuality all over the world.

01:56:02

I think he is—so whether he's a personal believer, I don't know.

01:56:08

I do know that he has said a lot of things that are good, and he's done some good things, and he's done some disappointing things, which is what you could expect from a populist who just goes on what he thinks is right at the time.

01:56:28

I think he thinks he's being constitutional. Other times he says he's gotten jobs back in the

01:56:37

United States from foreign countries, but he didn't say that he's threatened extra taxation on the companies that stayed in foreign countries.

01:56:49

So he is quite a mixture. It's a complex thing. And unfortunately, he has as a quote -unquote spiritual advisor an arch -heretic named

01:56:58

Paula White. She is a heretic. She is not just a Paul's teacher. That woman is a heretic.

01:57:05

Trump has no discernment about religious doctrinal things.

01:57:15

But he's not a Democrat. Well, I'm going to try to squeeze in Johnny's question from New York City.

01:57:26

Parental rights and consent to control what medical intervention is given to our children are being stripped away.

01:57:32

Homosexual people are given special privileges to adopt children and the likes. How should a

01:57:38

Christian political layman begin to understand the process for political activism and involvement?

01:57:43

Where can we get practical help in effecting change in our federal and state governments?

01:57:51

Well, I'd like to invite you back on for part three of this discussion, if you don't mind.

01:58:00

Okay, Johnny, we're going to have... Yeah, we'll send him a book, and Johnny, we will let you know when

01:58:09

Joe's returning, because I don't even know what date right now. I'll have him stay in the line after we go off the air so we can work out a next date.

01:58:18

Thank you so much, Dr. Moorcraft, for being such a superb guest once again. I want to remind our listeners, for those of you who did not win a copy, or even if you won a copy and you want to buy more to give away, you can go to comprehensivechristianity .com

01:58:37

comprehensivechristianity .com And we thank Comprehensive Christianity for providing us with the books that we gave away.

01:58:44

And I look forward to your return. Don't forget, folks, tomorrow, Dr. Moorcraft's sister -in -law,

01:58:51

Judy Rogers, a longtime friend of mine going back to the 1990s, she is our guest tomorrow.

01:58:59

She is a Christian recording artist, and we're going to be discussing her music and playing for you some of her music, both old and new.

01:59:08

So make sure you tune in tomorrow, and make sure you submit questions. And don't forget, on Thursday, Ron Dart is going to be discussing the book that he has edited,

01:59:21

Myth and Meaning in Jordan Peterson, A Christian Perspective. And then we have on Friday, Joe Jakowitz of Christ Bible Church in Pleasanton, California, and also founder of First Love Radio, which live -streams this program.

01:59:37

He's going to be returning for another update, another day of updates on the coronavirus.

01:59:43

Dr. Moorcraft, if you could hang on the line, I would love to schedule our next interview, and I want to remind all of our listeners,

01:59:51

I hope you always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.