15 Year Old Talks about Apologetics | Apologetics Live 0024

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Open Q&A with Matt Slick & Andrew Rappaport | Apologetics Live 0016

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All right, we are live. Apologetics Live coming to you again

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Thursday night, 8 o 'clock Eastern time when we go live each time. It can also be heard on podcast.

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Just search for Apologetics Live. You can get it there, get it downloaded if you subscribe every week.

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I am back and Matt, two weeks that I'm gone and what are you doing? Matt Slick from karm .org.

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I bring Eli in and what does he do? Both weeks he says, oh, no one can answer my arguments about gifts.

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Wrong. You're, you're totally wrong on this one, Matt. You're totally wrong. So how nice, how nice should

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I be to you when I dismantle you? That's the question that I'm thinking. Let's correct the record.

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Okay. Someone needs to correct Matt here. So let's go. Matt has two verses, two passages he looked at and folks, if you want to get in, ask questions, what you could do is go to apologeticslive .com,

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apologeticslive .com. And from there, you'll get to the page where you would be able to see the link to participate.

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Also the link is on karm .org, which is the ministry Matt works for. I should mention that I'm with Striving Fraternity.

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So here's the thing. Matt likes to bring up 1 Corinthians 1 .7

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that says, and so, so that you are not lacking in any gift and the word gift there as Matt and I will both agree is charismatis, which is the charismatic gifts, so that you are not lacking in any gift as you wait for the revealing of the

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Lord Jesus Christ. Now Matt says that no one can answer this. This is his best argument, but the one thing, and you can look this up in any dictionary or if you want in the

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Greek dictionary, lack requires a need. If there's no need for the gifts, then they're not lacking.

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So it does not argue as Matt was arguing that you need every gift to continue for today.

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Only if the church would be missing something. The church isn't missing anything because it has the scriptures.

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And so we could go to that. Now Matt's followup is 1 Corinthians chapter 13.

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He's going to argue, let me turn there, as he was arguing that the passage there where it says that look face to face, here's the thing.

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Face to face doesn't always, and Matt, I will give you this, Matt, you did correct yourself.

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You can be taught because you said almost all of the, I wish everyone just saw the face you just made.

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That look of surprise when I give you a couple of it. You did say almost all of the passages that say face to face refer to personal encounters because there is one that in the

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English says as face reflects face, which is what I would argue that should be because I see those as three illustrations.

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So I wouldn't take the illustration and try to argue for literal. Now the thing is, is that I'm going to say that all three of those when

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I look as a child, I spoke as a child, I reasoned as a child, I became a man, I gave up childish things.

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That's an illustration of something coming to maturity, which is what the word teleos means, the perfect, which

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I'm going to say is the canon. Then verse 12 in 1 Corinthians 13, looking in a mirror dimly versus face reflecting face or face to face.

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Again it's an illustration, then knowing in part versus knowing in whole. All three of those are illustrations of something coming to completion, which fits for the canon.

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So needed to set this record straight. I will say, I hope that you guys enjoyed

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Eli, we're going to probably get him back in. Eli and Matt put together like two brainiacs just going, okay, let's see how much.

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I'm going to respond to your 1 Corinthians 1 7 thing. I just, I corrected your false record that you had out there for two weeks.

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Okay, go ahead. So notice what he said, folks, he defines it in a certain way and then argues from the definition.

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Now he said we're not to lack anything because the church isn't lacking anything. Well, okay.

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Who says the church isn't lacking anything? Just because we have the Bible doesn't mean the church isn't lacking anything. And notice 1

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Corinthians 1 7 says that the need for the gifts is to occur until the return of Christ.

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So therefore we have a need for the gifts until the return of Christ. Well, the thing there is that the, there is a passage that says that these gifts will cease.

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Yeah, at the return of Christ, 1 Corinthians 13. And I would argue that that's with the completion of the canon.

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So when the completion of the canon, that's when we're known as we're fully known? As an illustration.

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See, you're taking the illustration as a literal. That's your problem. I'm just, no, I'm just taking the Bible for what it says. Okay. So we're known by Christ means we're saved.

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We're known as we're fully known and you only find the phraseology of the believers. So let's, let's go verse by verse.

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Verse 11. Is that an illustration? When I, when I was a child, I spoke as a child.

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I thought as a child. I reasoned as a child. But when I be, when I became a man, I gave up childish things.

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Is that to be taken literally or is that an illustration? It's literal. When I was a child,

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I thought as a child. I thought I reasoned as a child. It's literal. I became a man, did away with those childish things. That's literal.

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Yeah. Okay. Well, at least you changed your position from when we debated on that one. Cause you took that one as a figurative or as an illustration.

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It could be figurative. It could also be literal. But look at it. It's literal. It's literal. It's what it means. So what it, what it's talking about is an illustration of what, what is the word teleosmine?

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Completion. Completion. So someone that, that comes to maturity, it's complete, mature, perfect.

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It's translated perfect in most of the translations here in first Corinthians 13, which I think causes problems for some folks, but is someone coming from childhood to manhood?

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Is that an, a picture of maturity? That's a non -sequitur question.

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It's a direct question because that's the argument he's making. No, it's a very question. It doesn't make sense. Okay. So in verse 10, he says, he talks about when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

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So the whole argument is something that's complete versus something that's partial. Something that becomes mature.

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That's teleos. He talks about a child maturing to an adulthood. So what you have here is a child that becomes a man.

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It's an illustration. You have the same thing with a seeing in a, in polished metal, not a mirror like we have in polished metal versus looking face to face.

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Then that's the completion. Then you have the third one, knowing in part versus knowing fully that all three of those are illustrations of something that's partial to completion.

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It fits perfectly with the context. Yeah. If you're reading into it, you're dispensational.

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I'm just reading it. But the verse says, no, you're not just reading it. You're explaining it as you read it. That's not just reading it. Notice what it says.

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It says, um, and 1 Corinthians 1 .7, he really didn't address when I, I, I raised the issue because Paul himself tells us that we're not to lack these while we're waiting for Jesus to return.

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So he's saying that the, the need is to occur until the return of Christ. So that answers that problem that you gave right there.

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No, it doesn't. Yes, it does. Because he says, he says, okay, let's, let's deal with it.

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Let's deal with it. Because the word, okay, lack requires that there has to be something missing.

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If God said, if God uses revelatory gifts and then completes the

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Bible and no more need for those revelatory gifts, then it's not lacking anything.

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It says while you're waiting for the return of Christ, does he equate that with the return of Christ? Yeah.

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But the thing is, the church is not lacking anything. Does he relate the issue of the gifts of not lacking gifts while you're waiting for the return of Jesus?

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1 Corinthians 1 .7. Yes. There's no lack. We're not to lack anything, but we're not, hold on.

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We're not to lack anything while we're waiting for Jesus to return, right? You have to show that there's a need for the gifts then.

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I don't think there's a need for the gift. Well, that's what the word lack means. No. Lack, no, that doesn't mean there has to be a need.

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It means, what it means here is you're not without it, you're not without any gift.

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And that's why I say to look up in the dictionary, every single dictionary talks about the word lack referring to, or that there's a need, there's something missing.

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Of course we need the charismatic gifts for today. We need the word of knowledge and the word of wisdom.

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We need salvation. The free gift of God is, the free gift, charisma, same word here, is found in Romans 6 .23,

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it says, we're not to, the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God's eternal life. The word gift there is charisma, and it's an eternal life gift, charismatic gift.

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We're not going to be having, when Jesus comes back, if you're all millennial like me, make perfect sense. When he comes back, the new heavens and new earth are made.

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Eternal life isn't going to be doled out anymore. It's all completed, right then and there, done.

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There's not going to be any more born again experiences because the summation of all the ages occurs at that point.

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What Paul does here in 1 Corinthians 1 .7, you're not to lack any gift, waiting eagerly. You're not to lack, you're not lacking in a present participial sense of what it looks like while you're waiting for the return of Christ.

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So if you're waiting for the return of Christ, then you shouldn't be lacking it because you've got them while you're waiting for the return of Christ.

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That's all it says. What's the big deal? But the point is, the lack requires a need.

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If there's no need for the gift. We need the charismatic gifts. We need the word of knowledge. We need the word of wisdom.

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Why? We have the Bible. The Bible is great. And then the Bible tells us in 1 Corinthians 14, that when the church comes together and they do these things, that the elders are to judge what's happening.

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So there was definitely a need for these things in the Corinthian church. But that was before the

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Bible was complete. Yeah, but you're assuming, you're just, all you're doing is just making an assumption.

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No, no, no. I'm looking at the Bible. Let me finish. You're saying it's, you're assuming that when the perfect comes means the

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Bible. You're just an assumption on your part. Yeah.

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Well, I'm just reading the context. No, you're not. The context doesn't say it's the completion of the canon.

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1 Corinthians 1, 7 says you're not lacking any gift while you're waiting for the revelation of Christ. Now, what does it say here when it says in 1

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Corinthians 13, you'd think that Paul is going to be consistent with his, his understanding of the gifts and the return of Christ.

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But we now know in part, prophesy in part. But then when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. What's the then?

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You say it's perfect, but completion of the canon, nothing in there requires that. Well, okay. So it requires it.

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And he says, when I was a child, I spoke as a child, et cetera, et cetera. Now we see dimly, then face -to -face, then we're going to see

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Christ face -to -face when we have the Bible. Well, no. We're going to see Christ face -to -face when he returns.

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Hold on. Hold on. Which makes more sense. The way I'm explaining it, because I'm, I'm using the illustrations as illustrations.

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I'm not taking them as literal when I want to. What is it? Face -to -face?

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You said, what's the one exception you think face -to -face means, where it's not an actual encounter?

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Huh? In Proverbs. Proverbs? Proverbs 15. Proverbs what? I have to look it up.

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But while I'm looking it up, so the thing is this.

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Well, let's look it up. Let's look it up first. I'm looking, I'm looking, but I can do two things at once. Not as well as you, but this is the thing.

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What you see is all three illustrations are illustrations of something that comes to completion.

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And that's the thing. So you have a, something that is partial, uh,

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Proverbs 27, 19, uh, as in water face reflects face.

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So the heart of man reflects the man. That is Proverbs 27, 19.

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So in the Hebrew, that's face -to -face. But as water face reflects face, water face, face.

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Yeah. Okay. Okay. So let's hold on.

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So what I'm doing is, let me show you something. Face -to -face is the issue, right? Not face -face, but the phrase face -to -face.

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That's what is used. So when I go to Genesis, type in Logos, face -to -face, we see, let's see how

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God uses the phrase face -to -face. And what he says is, so Jacob named the place

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Peniel, for he said, I have seen God face -to -face at night. I'm not going to disagree with that. So that's a personal encounter.

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Hold on. All right. Well, let me finish. This is the whole thing. Exodus 33, 11. God used to speak to Moses face -to -face as a man speaks to his friend.

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There you go. The Lord spoke to you face -to -face at the mountain, Deuteronomy 5, 4.

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Deuteronomy 30, 10, Moses, whom knew the Lord face -to -face, personal encounter. Judges 6, 22.

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For now, I've seen the angel of the Lord face -to -face, personal encounter. Keep going.

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I'm hitting the next thing. Jeremiah 32, 4, it says, will be given into the hand of the king of Babylon and will speak to him face -to -face and see him eye -to -eye.

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The next one is 34, 3 of Jeremiah, it says, see the king of Babylon eye -to -eye, will speak to him face -to -face, speak with you face -to -face.

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Render to judgment with you face -to -face, Exodus 20, 35, Ezekiel, excuse me, Acts 25, 16,

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New Testament context. Meet his accusers face -to -face. I mean, that's what it says, but then face -to -face.

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Now I know, 1 Corinthians 13, 12, 2 Corinthians 10, 1, I am meek when face -to -face with you.

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Speak face -to -face, your joy may be made full. In 2 John. But none of those matter, Matt, because that's,

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I'm not disagreeing with any of those passages, but you're ignoring the one passage that doesn't make the case that you're saying.

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What's my case I'm making? Well, that it's a personal encounter. So my case is the phrase face -to -face speaks of a personal encounter.

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I've not seen any place in the Bible where it had contradicted that. No, face -to -face, not face -to -face.

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And it does have the phrase in Hebrew, face -to -face, face -to, in the

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Hebrew, face -to -face exists, but in what you quote in Proverbs didn't fit it. The fact that it does not, that is the fact that it doesn't fit what you're saying, just show it's a weakness of your position.

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And think about this. If we have 20 places where face -to -face is personal encounter, we have one in Proverbs, which is wisdom literature, which is understandably figurative.

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And if that's where you want to go to and say, see, all the other instances are personal encounter, but there's one in a poetic context means something other than that.

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Let's take it over to 1 Corinthians 13. And that's why we can say in 1 Corinthians 13, that face -to -face does not mean personal encounter.

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Here's the thing. What you see, folks, is Matt is taking this phrase and jumping all over the Bible to get the meaning of it.

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Instead of looking at the immediate context, like I am doing, I'm looking at the immediate context. The word teleos has to do with something that comes to completion or maturity.

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And then you have it in verse 10, perfect to partial. When the perfect comes, partial passes away.

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Then he says, child to adulthood. He then talks about seeing dimly versus seeing clearly.

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That's what the phrase is talking about. Why? Because it's not a mirror like we have today.

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It's seeing in a mirror dimly, but then face -to -face, known partial versus known complete.

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All three are talking about something that comes to completion or maturity.

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That's the context. I don't have to jump all over the Bible to say face -to -face must mean the same thing everywhere, especially when

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I have one passage where I can clearly see it means reflection. So now we have two places where it's used as an illustration.

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Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Okay. So you're saying you have two places where it means illustration.

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Yeah. Where's the second one? Proverbs 27, 19. No, no. Where's the other one besides Proverbs?

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Proverbs 27, 19 and 1 Corinthians 13. Okay. So 1

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Corinthians 13 is the text under examination. Yes. So to say that it supports your position is to beg the question.

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Okay. Is there a comparison in verse 12 being made between a mirror and seeing clearly?

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Yeah. Is that the illustration? Yeah. Okay. So it's not talking about personal encounter.

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It is a relationship between seeing dimly versus seeing clearly. What you're doing is you're trying to read into the text too much.

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I'm just reading the text. No, you're not. Yes, I am. I'm not jumping all over the

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Bible to say it's a personal encounter. You don't see that. There's nothing in here that says it's a personal encounter. Now, about the

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Hebrew, when you go to Proverbs 27, 19, it does not say face to face as you are saying it.

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We have different words. Yeah. It's a little bit different construction.

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So in Proverbs, the best you've got, as it says, face to face, as water, face reflects face.

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So the heart of man reflects man. It would literally be translated face is face.

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So what's happening is we have in Proverbs, this is your only text that you've got to argue from, your only one, because the other issue is under examination in 1

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Corinthians 13. So you can't use that and say, that proves my point. That's begging the question. You have to find in scripture where the term face to face, when it's talking about the return of Christ, means what you're going to be saying is, or the completion of the

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Bible, which you're just assuming that's what it means, the completion of the Bible. That's just an assumption. You haven't even established that it's true.

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What I have done, now what I have done is shown you from 1 Corinthians 1, 7, that it says we're not to lack any gift while we're waiting for the return of Christ.

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These gifts are again mentioned by representation and knowledge and wisdom and things like that in 1

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Corinthians 11. And so he said, when the perfect comes, it's consistent to say that what Paul is doing is arguing about the return of Christ.

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And because it's the return of Christ, that that is when we'll see face to face. And that's when we're known as we're fully known. To be fully known by God is to be saved.

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The Bible is there and completed. It doesn't mean then that all of a sudden we're not, that when the

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Bible is completed, it means that's when we're going to see face to face. So let me ask you a question. There's a different way to tackle this problem of yours.

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When it says face to face there in 1 Corinthians 13, when the Bible is completed, how is it that we're seeing face to face when the

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Bible is completed? What does it mean? You there?

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I don't hear him. Hello? No.

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Can anybody hear me? You guys can hear me type something in the chat on the side. Can you hear me now?

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Now I hear you. Oh, okay. All right. The mic was wrong.

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I don't know why. Okay. So here's the thing, Matt. What I'm looking at when

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I look at this, here's why I see this as referring to the canon, because it says that when this, whatever the teleos is, when that's complete, there's not a need for the gifts.

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You don't need them. Therefore, there is no lack. This answers it perfectly fine. So there's no lack because there's no need.

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There's no need because the canon's complete. When you look at these gifts, they're all deal with revelation.

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You have three illustrations of something that goes from incomplete to complete, from childhood to adulthood, seeing dimly versus seeing clearly, knowing in part versus knowing fully.

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All three of those, they fit perfectly with the context. I'm not jumping anywhere else in the Bible. I don't need to.

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To say that this is a personal encounter when you admitted that it is a comparison between seeing in a mirror dimly versus seeing clearly, that's the point of it.

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So that would be what it's saying. I wouldn't read into it that it's a personal encounter because the words, the phrase is used elsewhere.

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Okay? So and I'll grant you, everywhere else in Scripture other than this one verse in Proverbs 27 and 1

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Corinthians 13, if we exclude those two, everywhere else face -to -face is a personal encounter.

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But that doesn't mean it must be here. That's the thing. The fact is the great majority of the verses that God has ordained, it means personal encounter.

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And the only place where you can argue it doesn't mean that, which I'm not granting that, the phraseology is identical, therefore it fits.

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But the only place you can do that is in Proverbs, which is wisdom literature to begin with, and it talks in a figurative sense in its own context, so it's intended to be figurative.

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Well, no. But in 1 Corinthians 13. There's a reason I went to the Proverbs. The only reason because you say every, well, you used to say, you didn't in the show the last couple weeks, but you say everywhere.

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And Proverbs would be the one that would, other than the 1 Corinthians, that would buck that.

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But the whole point is I would stay within the 1 Corinthians 13 and say that is an illustration of seeing something clearly.

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And when you have, when you see it clearly, you don't need that partial thing anymore. That's what is the context there, correct?

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So how do you see face -to -face when the Bible is completed? Well, when the

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Bible is complete, it's not partial. How do you see face -to -face when the Bible is completed? It's not literal.

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How do you see face -to -face? What does it mean then? It doesn't mean what it says, okay. But now it's figurative.

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So what does it mean? It means something that you don't see in a mirror dimly, but now the comparison is seeing dimly versus seeing clearly.

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So, oh, wait. So that's already said in different verse. So what does face -to -face mean? That is the verse.

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Okay. The verse is, it says, for now I see in a mirror dimly.

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So now, right now I see in the mirror dimly, but then when this thing's complete,

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I see face -to -face. So the comparison is seeing in a mirror dimly versus seeing face -to -face.

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Now it's partial. Later it's complete. So it's blurry to clear. Is that what you're saying? That's exactly what it's saying.

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Okay. So that's what you're saying. So that's what it means. Face -to -face means it's clear.

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It's clear. Okay. That's what it means. That's what the context is saying. No, that's what you say the context says.

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Do you have any other place in Scripture to support that? Sure. The verse right before it and the verse right after it, where, again, it talks about something that comes to complete.

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The phrase face -to -face. Okay. So you're begging the question again. No, I'm not. Okay. I showed it to you, though.

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I'm asking you to show me the phrase face -to -face. Show me the phrase that God uses where it means that it's not a personal encounter.

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Okay. What in this text requires that? Why should an illustration be? No, no.

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I'm trying to work with you. I'm asking you what it means face -to -face here. You're basically saying it means more clarification. Okay.

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Right? I'll explain it again. No, no, no. I understand. I'm just trying to get what you're saying.

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Yeah. Okay. The phrase face -to -face. What does it mean right there in that context according to your idea?

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It means to see clearly. To see clearly. So when the Bible is completed, that's when we see clearly?

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We will have the completed Bible. Yes. So when the

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Bible is completed, then we see clearly. When a child becomes an adult, does he still see clearly?

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Okay. When the Bible is completed, is that when we see clearly? Is that what you're saying? It's hard to answer because what you're doing,

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Matt, is you're doing the non -sequitur. You take the one phrase. You're ripping it out of the context, and then you want to answer where the phrase is everywhere else in the

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Bible. That's the thing. There's nothing in this text that requires that. Well, context.

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When the perfect comes. And the question isn't what the perfect is. Was a child that spoke with a child, thought as a child? Now I don't do those things.

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For now we see in a mere dimly, but then face -to -face. We see incompletely now, but when Christ returns, we're going to see perfectly, which makes perfect sense from that.

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Now I know in part, but then when he returns, then I'll know as I'm fully known. And we only find the phrase fully known or to be known by God as a personal relationship with the elect or the

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Christians who are saved. We don't find that phraseology can be supported by the idea when the Bible is completed, then we're fully known.

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It doesn't make any sense. When Jesus is talking here, oh, excuse me. When Paul is talking here, he's reflecting out of 1

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Corinthians 1 .7. When he says that you're not to lack any charisma while you're waiting for the return of Christ.

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And as Charlie pointed out, I'm glad he did. You go to the very next verse. What it says there is that he will keep you firm until the end, blameless on the day of our

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Lord Jesus Christ. What he's talking about there is judgment, that we are not to lack any charismatic gift while we're waiting for the return of Christ.

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The judgment occurs. That's what 1 Corinthians 1 .7 is saying. In 1 Corinthians 13, the motif is carried over.

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He says that when the perfect comes, what is the completion of all things that are done by Christ when he returns, which makes perfect sense.

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That when now we don't have the full knowledge of everything in creation and our understanding and all of that kind of stuff.

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But when Jesus returns, we're going to see him face -to -face. That's how the phrase is used in Scripture.

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And the phrase, I'll be known as I'm fully known, that is only, only used in a relationship sense.

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So you not only have to deal with face -to -face, but you also have to deal with as I have been fully known, because both have the antecedent to perfect.

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So you have to work both of them in harmony. That's what I'm trying to ask you. What's face -to -face mean there?

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And then you have to go over and say, what does it mean to say I'm known as I'm fully known? Okay.

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I'm not reading into the passage anything like you are doing. You're reading so much into that.

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You're reading in face -to -face being a personal encounter. There's nothing in the text that requires it. You're reading in fully known, which again is another illustration.

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It's a comparison. All three of these are comparisons, something that's partial to something that's complete.

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The Bible was partially written when it was complete. There wasn't any more need for those three gifts.

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Therefore, the church is not lacking them. Therefore, 1 Corinthians 1 .7 is fine.

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There's no lack because there's no more need. So if it's perfectly in the context.

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That's called begging the question. You said nothing in the text requires personal encounter.

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The phrase face -to -face. I've shown you many verses where that is exactly the case. For you to say that nothing is there for that is really just not accurate.

29:33

So let me ask you again. Face -to -face. What does that mean along with the idea of to know fully just as I have been fully known.

29:42

To be fully known. How does that relate to the completion of the canon? This is what you're doing, Matt. You're taking it out of its context.

29:50

Okay. I'll explain why. The context here is a comparison between looking in the mirror dimly.

29:58

That's the comparison. It's a comparison. Mirror dimly. Face -to -face.

30:04

Knowing in part. Knowing full. That's what it's saying there. The other one.

30:10

The one previous is child to adult. All three of them. All three have to deal with something that's partial to something that's complete.

30:19

Which is exactly what it says in verse 10. When the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

30:27

That fits perfectly with the context without having to jump anywhere else to try to read into this some personal encounter or knowing something.

30:36

Now, here's the thing. Just because a word or phrase is used elsewhere in the

30:42

Bible, you have the burden to say of proof to show why it must be in this passage.

30:50

What does the phrase to be fully known mean in the context of the completion of the canon? Oh, it means that you have a partial canon.

30:59

You know in part, but then you know fully. To be fully known.

31:04

You know the full canon, yes. That's what it means to know the full canon. It's not specifically speaking of something that's partial to something that's full.

31:14

Okay. So, to be fully known means what again? I'll write this down. Well, it means to be fully known.

31:25

See, you're reading stuff into it. I haven't read anything yet. What's it say? What does the phrase fully known mean?

31:31

We don't know in part anymore. We don't know in part. Don't know what in part? Well, that's the question.

31:39

If you say it's the end of the age, then what is it that's in part? Okay, wait. Look, I'm trying to ask you what the phrase to be fully known means in the context.

31:47

Yeah, and I'm saying what it means. I'm not understanding what you're saying it means.

31:52

The phrase is a comparison of something that is completed or fulfilled or matured, which is what you see it from verse 10, 11, 12, and so on.

32:07

Okay. So, what does the phrase to be fully known mean?

32:14

It means to not know partially. Okay. To be fully known is something that's passive.

32:20

It means that we are fully known by something else or someone else, not for us to know something. To be fully known is passive tense.

32:26

It doesn't work. Why not?

32:36

To be fully known means it's passive. I'm fully known by someone else to be fully known. If I know fully something, then

32:43

I'm the one doing the knowing. It's in the passive here. It's to be fully known. Okay, so it's I shall know in part.

32:49

Right? So, that one is active. Then I shall know. That one is, let's see.

33:01

To be fully known is passive voice. It means the action is occurring elsewhere to the person. So, that means that you're fully known.

33:08

You just said it was active voice, which is the opposite. You said that you're knowing something. That's not what the text says.

33:13

So, I know in part. That's the current. That's right now. In all three of these illustrations, you have a now and a later.

33:20

All right? Now and then. Now I know in part. Later I shall know, even as I'm fully known.

33:27

So, someone fully knows with a complete knowledge. It goes from partial to completion.

33:35

You're not making any sense. So, you said, you said that to be fully known means to know something fully from the person who is known.

33:49

So, a Christian then knows something fully. That's what you said. So, what is the Christian knowing fully then?

33:57

Yeah. So, what it is, see, and this is the difference, Matt. It's because the way you're approaching it.

34:03

You're approaching this with preconceived ideas of what fully known must mean and face -to -face must mean.

34:09

I'm looking at the context and saying these are illustrations. I'm not reading into them a personal encounter or something more.

34:16

What does it mean then? What does it mean? It means that something is completed. So, no, to be known, to be fully known means what?

34:24

Well, I'm not, see, this is the thing. I'm not going to break this up from its context and then try to interpret it.

34:29

You have to take the full context, and the context is a comparison between now, know in part, then fully known as I'm known.

34:40

Okay, what does it mean to be fully known? To have it complete. Okay. It would be a complete knowledge.

34:48

So, partial knowledge to complete knowledge. Just like the child is partial to complete, mirror is.

34:54

Do you have any New Testament evidence that that's what the phrase means anywhere else besides this?

35:01

Well, okay, so are these passages comparisons? A child to an adult. I just asked you if you have any other place in Scripture.

35:09

See, I don't need to jump all over the Bible to read the context. I can read the context. I'm just asking what it means, and then you interpret it.

35:17

And then I'm asking if you have any other verification for your interpretations. All I'm doing. Let me turn this on you for a bit.

35:24

Let's start with verse 10. The perfect comes, the partial passes away.

35:31

So, is the perfect coming future tense? Is that future? When the perfect comes, that would be, well, it's present, but it's describing something in the future.

35:45

It's describing a future event to Paul writing this. Okay. He speaks about when he was a child.

35:52

Is that a comparison to his growing up and being a man? Yeah. Okay. Verse 12.

35:59

Now, currently when he's writing, he sees dimly. Is that being compared, seeing in a mirror dimly, is that being compared to seeing face to face?

36:09

No. Why not? I said yeah. Oh, okay. I thought you said no. Okay. Then it says, now

36:18

I know in part, then, now, so would the then be future, that now

36:25

I know in part, then I know fully as I'm known? Yes, future.

36:31

So, okay. So, you agree with me that all three of those are comparisons of childhood to manhood or adulthood to seeing dimly versus seeing clearly, knowing in part, knowing fully.

36:47

Can we agree to that? Comparisons of maturity growing up, yeah, seeing completely, yeah.

36:53

Okay. So, that is the point that I'm saying. I don't read anything more into it to say it's a personal encounter or it's the end of times.

37:03

And so, I would argue that the reason I think it's the canon is because that is being completed at that time and because those gifts are dealing with revelation.

37:14

All right. So, are you aware that to be known is a phrase used in the

37:20

New Testament only about believers who are saved? But that's not the phrase here.

37:26

Yeah. You know as you have been fully known. Jesus only knows the believers.

37:33

My sheep hear my voice, I know them. You could even go back to Jeremiah 1 .5 when it says

37:38

I knew you, and that's talking about a salvation relationship in a future sense. You can go to Galatians 4 .8

37:45

and 9 when it says when you did not know God, you served by nature those which are not God's, but now that you've come to know

37:51

God or rather are known by him. And we see the phraseology that God uses in the

37:57

Word, the completion of the Word, that the Scriptures interpret the Scriptures as best we can and to be fully known.

38:02

To be fully known certainly carries the implication of a relationship and salvation issue.

38:08

So when it says the perfect comes, it doesn't make sense to say that it's the Bible is when we'll be fully known. No, you know, we're fully known in the sense of being saved.

38:17

And when Jesus Christ comes back, the return along with the resurrection, along with all that's going to be happening, the fullness and the completion is what he's speaking about.

38:26

And that's really exactly what happens because we know that when Jesus comes back, the new heavens and new earth are made, the judgment occurs and everything else goes along with that.

38:34

So when Jesus comes back, the partial, all this incompletion will be done away with. The new heavens are going to be made, we're going to be fully known, resurrected, all of it's going to come to completion.

38:44

He says, he goes, look, when I was a child, I spoke as a child. I thought as a child, reasoned as a child, when

38:49

I became a man, did away with these childish things. These things are going to pass away with maturity, with the completion of stuff.

38:55

But now we've seen a mere dimly, but then when Jesus comes back face -to -face, which is consistent to how

39:01

God uses the phrase face -to -face, his personal encounter. Now I know in part, then I will be fully,

39:07

I will know just as I have been fully known. I have been as a past action upon the individual who is known by someone else.

39:15

That does not have to do with knowledge that we have about the Bible. It has to do with the salvation relationship knowledge.

39:21

That's what makes sense in it. Now I got a question for you. So when the completion of the canon occurs, do all the charismatic gifts automatically stop?

39:29

No, there's only three mentioned there that stop. Okay, when the canon is completed, did the charismatic gifts stop?

39:38

Yeah, I would say if we look at this text, okay, there's, yeah, because there's a difference here in this text.

39:47

I'm just asking a question. And I'm trying to answer it. In the text, okay, it is going to say, wisdom and prophecy stop, tongues cease on their own.

39:59

So there is a difference there in the Greek with that in the way that they end up having.

40:05

So because the tongues are passive indicative, where you don't have that with the prophecies and the knowledge they cease, that's the middle voice.

40:18

So because of that, I'm going to argue the tongues, my argument is going to be the prophecy and the wisdom stopped because when the canon was complete, it didn't continue writing scripture.

40:30

And the tongues, if someone had the gift of tongues, it ceased if God stops continuing to give that gift. That'd be my argument.

40:36

My question is when the last letter is written of the New Testament canon, the last dot is put on the page, done.

40:45

Do the charismatic gifts cease? Well, the only ones that the scripture says will cease are the knowledge and the wisdom, sorry, sorry, the knowledge and the prophecy.

41:00

Those two will cease. The tongues will cease on their own when the last person that was given that gift passes away.

41:08

Okay. But it's not all of them. So then when the canon was completed, people still had the charismatic gifts?

41:18

See, that's a fallacy of equivocation because you're using charismatic gifts to mean more than what the scripture says.

41:24

You're using it to say all of them. And if some of them continue, you make the argument they all must continue.

41:29

But this passage says that these three will stop. So just those three are going to stop with the canon or all the charismatic gifts are going to stop?

41:39

No, the scripture only mentions those three. So if only those three are going to stop and the rest of the gifts, for example, discerning of spirits and speaking in tongues, those are going to continue?

41:50

Tongues is mentioned as will cease on its own. Okay. So cease on its own.

41:56

Does it say when it's going to cease on its own? Yeah. Well, I said I think it's going to cease on its own when the last person dies who had that gift because they had the gift to speak in tongues as long as they were alive.

42:09

Okay. And I'd say the other two would stop because those two were revelation.

42:15

They were needed for giving new revelation. So love never fails or gifts of prophecy will be done away with or gifts of tongue, they will cease.

42:22

It just doesn't say that they'll cease on their own. It just says they'll cease. So how do you know what they're going to cease when the canon is completed or when the last person who has the gift?

42:34

I don't see that in that verse. Well, you know,

42:44

I think what it is is that you're, and I know you don't think you're doing it, but you're reading things into that.

42:50

But we do have some... You said they'll cease of their own. I didn't read that into that. You said that.

42:55

And I'm just saying nothing in the text says that they'll cease on their own. It says they will cease, but it doesn't say what and when.

43:02

Then you say, I'm reading in the text. I'm not reading in the text. You're the one. The word for pass away, okay, is different.

43:10

You have this as a future passive indicative, right, for pass away for the tongues where the ceasing for knowledge is a future middle indicative.

43:23

And the same is going to be the case for when, with the prophecies. So the prophecies that end are going to be, are a present active indicative.

43:35

So what you have with that is that the tongues are ceasing on their own. They're happening to, you know, it's happening to the person where the other two, it's something that's going to cause it.

43:47

What does it mean to cease on their own? What does that mean? Well, if I have a gift that I can speak in another language, when

43:52

I die, it dies. It ceases on its own. Okay. So that's just your, your belief.

44:02

Okay. So, uh, so you say that we, we don't need the charismatic gifts right now because we have the

44:10

Bible. See now this is what you're doing. That's not what I said. So what are you saying?

44:15

What I said is these three gifts are not needed and that's why we don't lack them. Okay. First Corinthians one seven. You're not lacking any.

44:21

Yeah. There's no need. Okay. So you're saying then when we have the Canon, there's no need of any of the charismatic gifts.

44:29

No. You see, listen to what I'm saying. These three gifts, these are the ones that are mentioned that will cease.

44:37

So there's no more need for these three gifts. I mean, the others,

44:42

I was quoting, um, first one is one seven. So you're not lacking in any charisma, any.

44:48

There's no need for those gifts. I'm not lacking it. Okay. You can only lack.

44:53

On what condition are, what condition are the no lacking tied to? In first Corinthians one seven.

45:00

A lack requires a need. That's what, what, what is it in the verse? What's it related to that we're not lacking?

45:06

What's it related to? The gifts. What is the not lacking of the gifts related to?

45:13

I don't understand your question. We're not lacking. Oh, you mean the word?

45:19

Yeah. We're not lacking any charismatic gift. What's that? What's it related to as we're not lacking under what condition or what, whatever, what does the text say it is?

45:29

Okay. And I know there's some folks in here that has some questions. So we're going to wrap this up. But the, the, the answer to that question is that if there is no need for those gifts, there is no lack of the gift.

45:41

If there was a need, if we needed the gift of tongues today, and we don't have it, that would be a lack.

45:49

If we don't need the gift of tongues today, and we don't have it, there's no lack. We are not lacking that gift because there's not a need for it.

45:59

So your interpretation of first, first one, seven is you're not lacking in any gift awaiting eagerly, or while you're waiting for the completion of the canon.

46:11

Correct. We're not lacking. There's, there's no lack of that lacking me gift while you are waiting for the completion of the canon.

46:23

No, the, the, the passage in first Corinthians one seven is not for the completion of the canon.

46:30

That is that passage. Let me just pull that up real quick. Excuse me.

46:36

That is for the waiting for the revealing of the Lord Jesus Christ. So that's the second coming.

46:42

So first Corinthians one, seven says that we will not have a need that will not be supplied until the time of Christ, because there's a lack.

46:55

So I'll give you, I'll give you the last word and then we got to, we'll get to some other folks who are in here. Cause I think we have some interesting conversations we're going to be having here.

47:04

I just want to correct the record from, well, you didn't, but your interpretation of this is that we're not lacking in any gift while we're waiting for the completion of the canon.

47:14

That's what you're saying, that we won't have any lack of the gifts. And once the completion of the canon occurs, then we don't need them anymore.

47:22

So your interpretation would be not lacking any of them because we have that need until the canon's there. That's not what

47:27

Paul says. No, that's not what your, your logic is. We don't need them until the canons completed.

47:34

No, that's your, yeah, we need the gifts until the canons completed. Right. Okay. That's not what

47:42

I, that's not what I said. And if this follower of Yeshua mutes me again, he's never going to get onto the show because I'm just going to toss you.

47:50

Okay. Um, so, cause he'll be fun to, he thinks he can prove that I'm not a

47:58

Levite. Anyway, the point that I'm saying is in first Corinthians one seven, there is no lack because there's not a need for the gift.

48:10

If the gift is not needed, it's not lacked. So therefore

48:17

I have no problem saying that the church is not lacking any charismatic gift until the coming of Christ, because that's what first Corinthians one seven says, but you have the burden of proof to show there's a need for continuing prophecy, wisdom and tongues today.

48:35

That's I know we're not going to have time to do that. So we may have to pick that up. Oh, are you muted?

48:40

Now it looks like he might've muted. No, you're muted. So you're saying there's no lack because the gift is not needed.

48:51

Well, hold on. Yeah. So it doesn't, you don't need it. So not needed once the can is completed.

48:58

Well, the need for new revelation is done away with when the revelation is complete.

49:08

Correct. Okay. I'm just trying to understand your position. No, I know lack because the gift is not needed.

49:13

Once the cannon's completed. No, see, that's not what I said. What I said is that there's, there's no, you argue your argument is that the word lack means that the gifts must continue.

49:26

All the gifts must continue. Any doesn't mean all. It means that in lack requires by definition, by the word lack, it means having a need.

49:38

So the church is not without any gift that it needs until the coming of crime would be.

49:46

So I don't understand what you're saying. So you're, but I'm trying to understand it. You're saying we don't need the charismatic gifts because we have a cannon.

49:53

I'm saying that the only charismatic gifts that we know that the scriptures say cease would be those three mentioned in first Corinthians 13.

50:01

So discerning of spirits is a, is a, is a charismatic gift. How about that for today? Well, the scripture, so the scripture mentions three that will cease.

50:10

Okay. Gosh. Well, it's, it's okay. You said those three. Great. Those three.

50:16

I'm asking you about the other ones. Yeah. I got the three. Any of the other ones now, any of the others like healing or anything like that at best you could do is from deduction.

50:28

And that we're going to end up into the Sam Waldron's argument. It's a charismatic gift.

50:34

Is that for today or not? I would, I would say we still discern spirits and we, we do by the word of God. We see that.

50:40

It's a charismatic gift. So yeah, that's, that's for today. So that charismatic gift has not ceased.

50:46

Correct. I would see that. I would see that we have that we're supposed to discern the spirits according to John from the word of God, which, which charismatic gifts have ceased and which charismatic gifts have not ceased.

50:59

Okay. The ones that ceased that scripture says would be the prophecies, the wisdom and the, the speaking in tongues.

51:09

Those are not all the charismatic gifts. There's another seven. They were. Okay. So are the other seven still around?

51:18

Uh, I would say that some could be, but the only way there, you can only do it by deduction to say something like for,

51:28

I'll take healing. For example, healing seems to have changed where people could heal.

51:34

People who had the gift of healing could heal anybody. And then they, you know,

51:40

Paul says, take a little wine for your stomach sake, cause he was sick. And you have people that would, we're not being healed.

51:47

So I would see that that gift seems to have ceased, but now notice how

51:53

I'm saying it. There's nothing in scripture that says it absolutely has where, so that's the distinction

51:59

I'm going to make. I'm not going to sit there and say that the scripture is clear on something that is, it's not clear on that you're doing from deduction.

52:09

I'm just trying to understand your position. Um, so, uh, the charismatic gifts are word of wisdom, word of knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, distinguishing of spirits, tongues, interpretation of tongues.

52:29

So you're saying wisdom is done away with, right? Your list.

52:34

Yep. Prophecy, wisdom and speaking. So word of wisdom is done. Uh, there's no more prophecy and there's no more speaking in tongues.

52:43

Uh, which means then we still have faith, healings and miracles and distinguishing of spirits.

52:50

Those are charismatic gifts listed. We might have those. Yes. You said the only ones listed that show that it's ceased are those that scripture says.

52:59

I said the others you'd have to do from deduction. Well, do you believe that it went through or stopped? Uh, I think the gift of healing where God gives an individual an ability to heal another person,

53:09

I think has, but God himself still heals. So I think there's a difference there.

53:15

It's not the gift the way it was in the first century. So as faith was charismatic gift that stopped.

53:22

Well, how do you, how are you going to end up defining that? Because now we get into, as I think in your debate with Sam Waldron, you had when you look through charismatic, um,

53:31

I think you had ended up seeing that the word charismatic refers to salvation.

53:36

Now, obviously salvation doesn't stop. That continues. That's what Romans six 23 says.

53:42

Yeah. That's where you get to the eternal life. It's a charismatic gift, isn't it? Yeah. Okay. So I don't,

53:48

I wouldn't say all of them stopped because, because of passages like that. So you're not a cessationist.

53:54

Sure. I am because those three stopped the three that are mentioned in scripture stopped.

54:01

I think they ceased. So you're a partial cessationist.

54:08

So let's do this, Matt. Cause I, you're a secret charismatic. You're a secret sensationist.

54:15

Right. No, I'm not. I believe all of them are still for us today. Yeah. All right. So let's do this.

54:20

Let's transition to some folks that have some questions. Um, there was someone who came in,

54:26

Matt asked a question. He wanted to ask a question, uh, and he dropped out. I'm trying to look for the question, but he was asking, uh, he was asking if, um, and if, if you have any knowledge of, uh,

54:41

I'm going to bring John in. Cause he's going to know who this probably is. Service Christy. John, am

54:47

I saying that right? That guy service. Really? He's the guy who does all the videos for,

54:53

I just want to make sure I was pronouncing his show correctly. Yeah. Yeah. Service Christie. All right. So, so Matt, are you familiar with Josh?

55:01

Uh, I forgot his last name, but service Christy. Are you familiar with that at all? Okay. He probably will call you out soon enough.

55:09

If he hasn't. So, uh, let me, uh, I forget who it was that was asking the question.

55:17

Let me wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay. Who's this guy and what's going to call me out for? He calls everybody out.

55:22

For what? I mean, he calls everybody out. I mean, you might as well just get mine. Yeah. If we knew who service, service

55:29

Christie is for being a Christian or yeah. Well, service in Idaho. What? Yeah. Josh, he has a channel called service

55:36

Christie. I've met him in New York. Uh, he's a very effeminate, um, guy who does not, as far as I've ever known, have a church membership.

55:45

He can't, you know, he just criticizes everyone, Matt, uh, Justin Peter supposedly isn't saved according to him.

55:52

Um, he thinks MacArthur is a heretic. Uh, um,

55:58

Paul Washer. I mean, he, there's a list, there's a long list that he keeps and he just keeps going on and on and on.

56:05

Yeah. He, any, any Christian out there that's not compile or, you know, comply with his theology is a hair.

56:12

Yeah. And it's, it's ridiculous. So the thing that he does, and this is for, this is for bill. What he does is, and Matt, you've probably seen people that do this.

56:20

His arguments are. If one person is associated with another person and that other person is associated with someone who's bad, then all of them are guilty of what the last person did.

56:34

Okay. Um, which is a bad way of doing arguments, but basically, um,

56:41

I, I didn't know if you've come across him. He has a YouTube channel where he's calls everybody out.

56:47

Uh, basically, he is someone who is not a church member. He doesn't follow the scriptures when it comes to attending a church and being part of a body of Christ being under accountability.

57:00

And for very simple reason, most of these guys, you know, uh, for bill, if you're still listening, you could listen to, uh, my, my podcast,

57:10

Andrew reports, rap report. I did one with Todd Freel. I did one just recently this week with Phil Johnson, both dealing with the topic of discernment, uh, with Phil Johnson.

57:21

We actually mentioned Josh. Um, but what you end up seeing is, um, we talk about different people that do discernment.

57:29

Unlike the way Matt does it. If anyone watches Matt's like, he doesn't just sit there and call out heretics all the time.

57:36

There's plenty of heretics to be called out, Benny Hinn and you know, the like that Matt will call out, but he also teaches.

57:43

He'll teach things. There's a distinction. Guys that do just this sort of discernment.

57:50

And I always bring up a guy from the eighties, the discernment notebook guy, I forget his name, but what you end up having is you have guys who just try to make a name by ripping on other people, other

58:03

Christians, um, causing division in the body of Christ, where you you're taking people that just could have a different view of theology.

58:11

And they say, Nope, that person's not even saved. That's a real problem. Um, so that's, that would be him.

58:21

Hyperjudgmentalism. Yes. Okay. So, yeah, I, I gave you're breaking a link.

58:30

YouTube link is inside chat there for you. If you want to check it out, that's his channel. And, um, is this the guy that you were talking about with Phil Johnson about the notebook guy, the discernment guy or what's the guy?

58:41

There was a guy in the eighties and nineties that, and I still have it. I can probably dig it out. It's right on the other side of the wall.

58:48

And while Matt's talking, I'll pull it out. But basically the guy would had a notebook that he'd send you, you'd pay for it.

58:55

And he'd send you a three ring binder with, and send you leaflets for you to put into the binder. And basically he would give you updates on different people.

59:03

And he started with, you know, I mean, it started with guys that really need to be called out when, you know, Billy Graham was working with Catholics and things like that, that were good.

59:13

But then he started cutting corners and, you know, he took MacArthur out of context.

59:19

This is all MacArthur doesn't believe in the, uh, you know, in the, in the blood of Christ. And that wasn't what he said, you know?

59:28

So that's what you end up having is guys that end up, you know, like that, that they're just, they don't end up, uh, caring about truth.

59:39

They care about making a name for themselves. They're not caring about what scripture says, like church attendance.

59:46

now Matt would, for example, folks would not agree in church membership, but he would agree in church attendance, right,

59:52

Matt? Yeah. So scripture is kind of clear that we should be a member of a church.

59:57

We should be accountable. Well, that is a member, but attend, attend. Did I say member? Yeah. I'm sorry if I said that we should attend.

01:00:05

Um, and so the thing is, both Matt and I are, you know, run para -church organizations.

01:00:13

Both Matt and I attend a church where we're under the authority of another person. Someone who refuses to be under the authority of another person,

01:00:22

I have concern with. So first one in here tonight was

01:00:27

Kat. I'll add her in. I don't know if she has any questions. Kat, you have any questions for Matt tonight?

01:00:36

I do too. However, um, only one can wait. We can see your face.

01:00:42

Your hand's not covering you anymore. I know. Hi, I'll fix that later.

01:00:47

Yes. When the stomach settle. All right. So you have a question. Do you have a question for Matt?

01:00:53

You said, or no, um, I did actually, and it was a clarification of two weeks ago with Eli.

01:00:59

I'm so sorry, Andrew, um, is just so I know how to, um, with Molinism and talking with anybody about that.

01:01:05

I just needed to understand their position real quick on something. And the example you gave with Bob, the 10 worlds in that blue shirt.

01:01:12

And I didn't hear whether or not it was addressed. If, if that's what was best then for Bob being in that world and, uh, that universe that was actualized, what happens then if I'm supposed to pick a black colored car, and that's what

01:01:31

God wants for me, but it's only in a different universe or world that was actualized.

01:01:36

Will that make a difference as to anything? Yeah, you're thinking properly. And that's one of the questions

01:01:42

I was going to, you know, I was going to think about, um, asking in that issue as we're discussing, uh, because, uh, that point was only to illustrate one point.

01:01:52

That same was illustrate one point. And the idea was hypothetically, let's say there's 10 possible universes and God knows what anybody will do in any of those 10 universes.

01:02:02

And he wants Bob to pick a blue shirt on, on whatever day. So he picks the universe where Bob's going to pick that shirt because Bob's freely going to do that.

01:02:10

The point I was trying to illustrate was that what the problem, the implication here is that God is making his choices based upon the foreseen knowledge of what someone's going to do.

01:02:19

But the Kamalists generally are going to come back and say, no, it's not like that. What they're going to say is he just happens to know what would happen in different situations.

01:02:26

And he works it all together and decides based on his sovereignty. That's still, to me is the issue of how he knows what they're going to do in different circumstances, which is begging the question, which means that they're going to be able to choose certain things in different, uh, situations.

01:02:40

But the only way that could happen is if God created a situation in the first place. And second, if we're talking about the issue of someone who's being saved, the unbeliever cannot, according to scripture of his own free will, believe in God.

01:02:51

So there's never going to be a chance in one of those universes where of his own strictly free will choice that so -and -so is going to believe in God.

01:02:58

It's never going to happen. So, the Molinists, in my opinion, make several logic errors and biblical errors because they're putting philosophy over scripture.

01:03:07

Now, the issue that you raise, well, in the universe where Bob clicks a blue shirt and he, God wants you to pick a black shirt, a blouse, whatever, but you can't have both in the same time in the same universe, then what's we going to do?

01:03:19

And that raises a whole nother issue because in the Molinist, if God is trying to pick the world, that's going to get the best effect.

01:03:27

Well, you know, I've actually had Molinists hinted that idea that, well, what God's trying to do is work out the world for the best result of the most people being saved.

01:03:36

He knows these situations are going to work, which to me is ludicrous idiocy. Seriously.

01:03:43

If God wants you to be saved, all he's going to do is shine his glory on them. They'll freely change because the glory requires that as a redemptive work in them is glory.

01:03:51

They're going to, they're going to just change. And so it just, it doesn't, it doesn't make any sense. It does not make any sense.

01:03:57

Molinism to me, um, is a very sophisticated, um, way of elevating men and demoting

01:04:03

God. That's what I see it as. Anyway, I was going to ramble on. No, that was awesome. Thank you. Cause I was still,

01:04:09

I was having a hard time wrapping my mind around that too. And like, wait a minute, you know, in order to, you know, defend my position,

01:04:15

I need to understand theirs, but I'm not. So thank you very much. And if there's time later, I'll ask the second.

01:04:22

I've discussed Molinism and I've studied it and read it, read it, read it, debated it, taught it, whatever.

01:04:28

And I'm always, people say, no, you don't get it, Matt. I'm like, well, what do I not get? And then I'll work with them and then they'll tell me stuff.

01:04:34

And I'll go, well, wait a minute. I always try to break things down to get, okay, let's, let's see what you're saying. Bang. Isn't this what you're saying?

01:04:41

And, uh, when someone tries to get a sophisticated explanation for something, and that's as simple as it can get, that's always a warning flag to me.

01:04:48

You can't break it down relatively simply for, you know, basic statements. It doesn't always mean it's the case, but it's a problem.

01:04:55

Now, this guy who wants to debate with the Trinity, I want to know more about you. If you're going to check him out. We're going to, we're going to get to him in a bit.

01:05:00

Um, and, and Kat, I mean, the fact that, I mean, Molinism is not easy to understand. So it's not the fact that you're, you're grasping it and like, and you're, you're asking good questions.

01:05:12

You're thinking because it's not, I mean, Matt studied it for a long time and he and I would sit down and it took me a while to go away.

01:05:19

It took me a while to understand some of it. Uh, and that, yeah, it's with Matt studying it for months and then trying to explain it.

01:05:27

So it's, it's not an easy thing to understand. Um, yeah. And, uh, so, you know,

01:05:33

I've, I've read and then people say, well, that's not it. And then I explain it to me and then

01:05:39

I tried to understand it. I'll repeat it. No, that's not it. But wait a minute. I'm just going off what you just said. Right. So sometime

01:05:46

I I'm getting the impression. Uh, I'm getting the impression that Molinists don't know what Molinists really teach. That wouldn't,

01:05:54

I, uh, that's, that doesn't surprise me. It was just, yeah. All right.

01:06:00

So Matt, we're going to go to bill before we do before I bring him up. Uh, we should just make, make a quick mention of my pillow.

01:06:08

Now. I don't, I know you're not on Twitter as much, but someone did tweet, Matt, a picture, uh, that they sent to both you and I on Twitter, uh, thanking us because he just got himself a, my pillow and he is loving it.

01:06:23

He knows what you and I have known for a long time that we get a better night's sleep with a, my pillow.

01:06:29

He said, took the leap and got some Andrew Rapport, Matt slick, really awesome.

01:06:35

Uh, that there were different, uh, Bible verses in the box at my pillow USA, uh, like the fortune cookie without the pagan aftertaste,

01:06:46

LOL. So they had gotten their, their, my pillows and they're holding their box in the picture and loving it.

01:06:53

They also love the fact that they're found a Bible versus when they purchased. So it is a, the owner is a believer from what

01:07:01

I understand. And so that's a good thing. Um, but we both Matt and I thoroughly enjoy our, my pillows.

01:07:07

If you want to pick up a, my pillow on your own, let them know you heard about it on apologetics live call one 800 nine, four, four, five, three, nine, six, one 800 nine, four, four, five, three, nine, six.

01:07:25

I'm going to bring bill in. I raised your volume up. Bill. We asked your question earlier.

01:07:32

Quick question. I just want to ask is, does Justin Peter have a, my pillow? That's a good question.

01:07:38

Maybe I should do a hashtag, uh, Justin, I win. Yeah. Maybe I should send one over to him.

01:07:46

There you go. So Bill, you should be able to, to be heard now.

01:07:55

Yes. Can you hear me? Yep. Okay. Have you guys heard the positive report? There's videos.

01:08:02

Um, really on John McArthur and Justin Peters. Okay. I'm going to turn

01:08:10

Steve down because he's speaking and no one's going to be able to hear him. Uh, is, is that the service

01:08:15

Christie's? Is that the name of his? Yes. Yeah. So did you hear my answer to your question or no?

01:08:22

No, I didn't. Okay. So I know, I know Josh, I've met him in New York. Um, the issue

01:08:27

I have with Josh, uh, is he refuses to be a church attender.

01:08:34

Um, and anytime you have a guy that's doing, wants to do discernment, wants to call everyone else out, especially solid people.

01:08:41

And yet he doesn't attend church. you know, it's, it's, it's some, he has some real theological issues.

01:08:52

He, he kind of is one of these guys that believes he's the only one that's right. Well, I guess you'd be right if you agree with him on everything, but there are issues that he's going to have when he calls out solid people, not based on what they do or say, but on associations that they have and make them guilty of some, what someone else may say or do.

01:09:14

Um, you know, he, he's, I've, I have found him to be very legalistic, very effeminate, and refuses to be part of a church.

01:09:24

It doesn't seem as one that wants to put himself under accountability. Um, what

01:09:29

I recommend for you to do is, uh, is to, I have a podcast called

01:09:34

Andrew Rapwort's Rap Report. You can go search for the one I did with Todd Friel, where we talk about discernment and we talk about some rules about discernment and when to name names, when not to name names.

01:09:46

And the one that I just dropped this last Sunday is with Phil Johnson, where Phil and I actually mentioned,

01:09:51

Josh, um, you know, there are some rules to discernment and people who disqualify themselves from discernment in the way they go about doing it, such as in, in the case where, you know, people who are going to, uh, look to, you know, name call and just be vicious in the way they speak about someone, especially if they're going to say, you know, this is someone claiming to be a

01:10:17

Christian. So, you know, I would, I'd recommend those resources for you. Is that helpful? Yes.

01:10:23

Thank you. And since we're, we're in, this is, I'll do this more for John, but this is the discernment notebook that this guy used to send out.

01:10:32

And let's see if I do it this way. You can see the, he'll have a write -up on, on different people.

01:10:38

Um, and it was somewhat helpful, but you know, when he started out, it was, it was good as with most discernment ministries.

01:10:46

They're, they're usually good when they start, but if they just focus on discernment, it usually becomes a problem.

01:10:53

I mean, that's why you see guys like Justin Peters, Matt Slick, uh, Todd Freel, they, they're teaching.

01:10:58

They're not just doing discernment. So, um, all right. So Bill, was there any other questions that you had?

01:11:04

No. And also like with James wanting latent flowers, I see different videos, um, them critiquing each other.

01:11:11

Um, have we forgotten how to make disciples and we're just critiquing each other and we're beating on each other?

01:11:18

Yeah. Well, that's what, you know, here, here's an example. Let me, I'm going to use

01:11:24

Matt as an example. Okay. You don't see Matt getting into a lot of those type of things. I mean, Matt's debated latent flowers.

01:11:30

Maybe late. Don't come on here. We could set up another formal debate. Yeah, I definitely want to do that. But, but what you don't see with Matt is you don't see

01:11:38

Matt following everything latent says he's too busy. He's, he's busy studying and researching and teaching.

01:11:45

Okay. What you have with some people is they're just constantly following what others say and, and chasing everything down.

01:11:52

Now, in the case with, with guys like James White, Leighton flowers, if, if Leighton mentions

01:12:00

James White or James White mentions Leighton, they have a bunch of people that will send them videos and, and because they get a lot of it, they feel they have to respond.

01:12:09

I was getting a lot of videos from Rabbi Tovia Singer. I felt I had to respond to his video since so many people were sending it to me and I did, but I, you know,

01:12:17

I've also sent my response to Tovia. I did a response to Leighton flowers. I sent it to Leighton.

01:12:23

Leighton and I chatted about it afterwards. You know, where he thinks I was right and where he thinks I was wrong on my critique of him, but there's a difference in how we do it.

01:12:31

We were doing it as a teaching way of teaching things, but that should be the goal. And if it's, if it's just a rip on people,

01:12:39

I think that's more problematic. Yeah. Well, I do appreciate Matt and it's in Catholicism.

01:12:45

So I just in Mormonism. So I do get a lot of out of it. Did you say you, you, you appreciate

01:12:52

Matt's Catholicism? Yes. Materials. Yes. Not, not, no, no, no.

01:13:00

I was going to say Trent horn from Catholic answers. He and I've been dialoguing and he wants me to, when I go to Arizona, he wants me to meet with them at a certain diocese.

01:13:10

They're going to have film cameras, whatever they're going to do. And he wants me to do three, one hour deals.

01:13:16

One on, he suggested one is a solo scriptura. The other one is the

01:13:22

Marian doctrines in the Bible. And the other one is a discussion on Calvinism. So he wants to do it in early

01:13:28

June, but not once after you move. Don't yeah, it's yeah. I'm going to wait.

01:13:33

So he's initially said August or July or August, which is a better timing for me. So. Yeah.

01:13:40

And, and you know, it's funny because there was the guy who called up your radio show saying a Catholic who wanted to debate you. And it's like, well, he can contact us here.

01:13:46

We could set it up. It doesn't have to be in a church. He does. I know he wanted to use the excuse to go to Hawaii, but I would definitely do a debate in Hawaii.

01:13:55

If someone would pay my way. Absolutely. All right. So let's see, move down to the, so Bill, if there's, if you don't have anything else,

01:14:01

I'm going to, that's it. Thank you. All right. I'm going to move your mic down there. So silence you.

01:14:07

So it doesn't get confusing. Next in was Keith.

01:14:13

So let me, let's see, where's Keith here. Let me add Keith in.

01:14:18

And bring up your volume. Keith, you can unmute yourself. We'll give him a couple of seconds to unmute

01:14:28

Keith. I will leave him in. If he wants to speak up,

01:14:35

I will bring our friend from down under Andrew in. And there you go.

01:14:42

Andrew, if you want to unmute yourself, if you have any questions for tonight. Okay.

01:14:49

I think I'm on mic. Yep. Okay. Sorry. I did a lot of rain outside. Storm storm weather now.

01:14:56

I guess my question for Matt, I posted in the radio show, Charlie said to, or advised to get a call up and call it.

01:15:06

But since I'm in Australia, UTC probably wouldn't have gotten through. My question, if evolution is true,

01:15:17

I had to write the question down. Why does our thinking Morgan not have an off switch yet?

01:15:24

I'm sorry, what? If evolution is true, what? Why does our thinking organ as in our brain or have an off switch yet?

01:15:34

I don't understand the question. If evolution is true, why does our thinking not have an off switch?

01:15:40

Yeah. Brain was a break. Why does our brain not turn off? Because we die like within as we will it.

01:15:47

It would we die. I don't know. I just thought

01:15:53

I'd post it. It just seemed interesting. Well, the brain turns off. That's called when you die.

01:15:59

I get it. I get that. So I'm not sure

01:16:05

I understand the question. That's all right. All right. Thinking you might have had an idea on it, but if you haven't, you haven't got it.

01:16:13

Nothing I can do about that. Okay. All right. So then what I'm going to go to matters. This next person is father of Yeshua.

01:16:22

This one, I'm going to, if you saw in the, in the chat, he's claiming,

01:16:30

I don't know. He claims he's an Israelite. I think an Asian Israelite. It should be interesting.

01:16:38

He said, wait, he said, I'm ready. Then he said, wait, I don't know, but he's in, he can unmute himself.

01:16:45

He was very active in, in the, in the chat here saying that he could prove

01:16:52

I'm not a Levi, which was kind of funny. But, all right.

01:16:58

So you're, you're here. What's your name? Okay. We hear him back there.

01:17:12

Yeah, he's coming. He's coming to the mic. Maybe this is great for radio.

01:17:21

The one who's challenges a whole lot. Oh, he's got the mic.

01:17:28

There it is. Are you here now? Are you there?

01:17:34

Follower of Yeshua. Oh, we, we hear a lot of noise.

01:17:42

I should actually get my wife to come in here and read what his, what his, his name is here.

01:17:51

So the font is so small. Well, he's, you're able to type.

01:17:59

We can hear you. All right.

01:18:05

He says, his name is Ben. So Ben, can you say something?

01:18:11

Can you hear me? Yes, we hear you. Okay. So you say that, what do you want to do?

01:18:20

You want to ask something or the Trinity? What about it? Let's go to Hebrews one, four.

01:18:28

What about the Trinity first? What, what's your, what's your issue? If you could kind of stay somewhat,

01:18:37

I don't know what type of mic you have, but there's a lot of noise when you're moving around.

01:18:42

Sorry. I'm in the basement. Yeah. It's just that we're hearing, like,

01:18:48

I don't know if it's a mic that's tied to your shirt or something, but we're hearing a lot of rustling noise every time you try and move.

01:18:55

Sorry. I'll put it on a table. Much better. Okay. So what about the

01:19:02

Trinity? I don't believe in it. Why not?

01:19:09

Because the, the father is the most high, most high. Like the father was higher than the son.

01:19:18

You mean higher as he's on the second story and the son's on the first story. He's higher. What do you mean?

01:19:24

More, more powerful, more powerful. Where are you getting this from?

01:19:30

The Bible? Yes. Can you show me new verses? It says the father's more powerful than Jesus.

01:19:45

Are you, are you there? You had to answer a call. Not me. That was my, on my line.

01:19:51

on my area, I had to try. Yeah. I said, don't, don't, don't assist me as I work with him.

01:19:59

I want him. I'm going to answer certain questions at a certain. Okay. If you can.

01:20:06

Okay. So somebody's microphone was acting up. I heard like some like ringing or something. That was on my end.

01:20:12

And sorry about that. I turned it. Okay. I thought it was mine. I'm going to plug my earbuds back in then. It's fine.

01:20:17

No, that's good. You're good right there. Don't, So, so you said the father's most high.

01:20:25

And he's more powerful. The father has more authority. The father created the son.

01:20:31

Maybe, maybe take your earbuds out. It was much better before. The father created the son.

01:20:40

You got any verses for that? Let's go to Hebrews one, four. Having become much better than the angels.

01:20:46

He's inherited a more excellent name than they were. Does that say that Jesus was created by the father?

01:20:52

What version of the Bible are you using? NASB. Yeah. Now that the

01:20:57

ESP is not the right one. It's not as old. I'm using the NASB.

01:21:02

That's the Bible I use. So, let's read the, let's read the

01:21:07

KJV. I don't want to use the King James. I don't like the King. I'll even bust out the do a rhymes if I have to.

01:21:14

Okay. Let's use the NASB. No problem. So, what's the, what's a, you know, show me in the, show me where Jesus is created.

01:21:23

You see, you're trying to make it your own book. Show me where Jesus is created. Okay. I'll read it out loud.

01:21:33

Being made so much better than the angels being made. Let's look at the word made translated.

01:21:41

The word is genome. I, which means to become to happen to come into existence.

01:21:49

Um, it's not genome. I, it's genome. I, uh, and what

01:21:56

Hebrews one, four says, having become as much more. Uh, and so you think it means to come into existence?

01:22:04

Yes. Okay. So are you able to do any word searches or anything? What does that have to do with it?

01:22:14

Say that word means to come into existence, right? Uh, you know, absolutely. Okay.

01:22:20

Matthew five, 18, not the smallest literal stroke of the law. She'll be, uh, she'll pass away until all is accomplished.

01:22:26

That's the word genome. My, okay. You said the word means, you said the word, you said the word means to come into existence.

01:22:37

Uh, will to Corazon Bethesda for the miracles had occurred entire inside.

01:22:42

Let me give you an example of how one word can have two different meanings. You don't have to, you don't have to worry about that with me.

01:22:49

Hold on. I know that words have different meanings in different contexts. You said a statement, you said the word means this,

01:22:57

I'm showing you that it has other meanings as well. So if it has other meanings as well, and then you say it must mean one thing in a certain place, you'd have to determine that meaning for the context.

01:23:10

And the context was that he was made. Okay. So you, you, you believe what the

01:23:17

Bible says by any chance? Absolutely. Okay.

01:23:22

So let's go with your, your King James version and I'll, I'll continue reading. All right.

01:23:28

Being made so much better than the angels being made so much better than the angels.

01:23:33

He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they friend to which of the angels said he, at any time that weren't my son this day,

01:23:41

I've begotten the, and again, I will be a father to him and he should be my son. And again, when he bring it into the firstborn into the world, he said, and let all the angels of God worship him.

01:23:52

And of the angels who said, who makes this angel spirits and his ministers, flame of fire, but unto the son, he says thy throne.

01:23:58

Oh, God is forever and ever a scepter of righteousness as a scepter of the kingdom.

01:24:04

So the text you're talking. What? One more time.

01:24:12

I'm trying to point you to verse eight. Yes, but of the son, he says thy throne.

01:24:19

God is forever and ever. Speaking of Jesus, he's called God there in Hebrews.

01:24:25

When you say he's made, you mean he's created. That means he can't be God, but then why would just in four verses later, he's called

01:24:33

God. Okay. Why would he be called God? Because he comes in the name of the

01:24:39

Lord. Is that what the text says? Just, well, you have to read different parts.

01:24:47

Is that what the text says? Or are you changing the word of God to make it fit your theology?

01:24:54

I would never do that. You just did it. So what does the text actually, can you read for me?

01:25:01

Just read for me verse eight. But of the son, he says your throne. Oh, Lord is forever and ever.

01:25:08

That's not what it says. The what? That's not what it says. Your throne.

01:25:14

Oh, God is forever and ever in the right. Whoa, whoa, whoa. You are being deceptive.

01:25:20

You misread the word of God on purpose. Wow. You said that your throne.

01:25:29

Oh, Lord, that's not what it says. I called you on it. You immediately went to correct that throne.

01:25:34

Oh, God, you altered the word of God. Boy, you are guilty.

01:25:44

What does it say? But of Jesus, of the son, he says, thy throne. Oh, God. So as God, the father calling

01:25:51

Jesus, God, he came in his name, is

01:25:58

God, the father calling Jesus, God, let me, let me find another verse.

01:26:09

No, no, is, is God, the father calling Jesus, God, right there.

01:26:16

You might not understand the context because. Is Jesus, is God, the father calling

01:26:22

Jesus, God, but of the son, he says, thy throne. Oh, God, but of the son, Jesus, he says, thy throne.

01:26:28

Oh, God. So is, is the father calling Jesus, God, let's go to verse three.

01:26:39

Let's go to verse three, who being the brightness of his glory and the express image of his person and upholding all things by the word of his power.

01:26:49

When he, when he had by himself purchased our sins, sat down on the right hand of the majesty on high.

01:26:57

Yeah. Well, so the father is in a center. Does the father have a body of flesh and bones?

01:27:08

No, he's a spiritual entity. Is he located in one place? No. Then how could

01:27:15

Jesus be on his right side if he's not located in one place? Because the verse just says it. What does it mean to be on the right hand?

01:27:25

Well, think about the phrase right hand man. It means, um, a place of authority.

01:27:33

Okay. That's what it means. Now, um, so back to verse eight, um, but of the son, he says, they thrown, oh,

01:27:42

God is forever and ever. So God is calling Jesus, God, the father's calling

01:27:48

Jesus, God. And then what you do is you ignore it because it doesn't fit your theology.

01:27:58

And verse three doesn't help you either. He's exact representation or the express image of the person of the father.

01:28:04

An angel is not the express image of the father. I'm not. So you have another verse you want to go to?

01:28:16

Okay. Maybe I could, one more verse. I'm going to ask you a question. Okay. What is it?

01:28:22

It's an interrogative. It's not an indicative. That's what a question is.

01:28:30

It's an interrogative. Um, do you have another verse you want to go to? I thought you were going to ask me something.

01:28:39

Can you tell me, tell me, define the Trinity. What is it? The father's son,

01:28:45

Holy spirit. Three in one. That's not what the Trinity is. Please try again. That's not what the

01:28:52

Trinity is. They're all got in three in one. Three in one. One three in one, three in one, one, three, three, what's in one?

01:29:02

They're all like God, but they're three different entities, but they're in one.

01:29:08

That's not what the Trinity is. Fail. We don't. That's not what the Trinity is.

01:29:16

You say the Trinity is false. You don't even know what it is. And then you want to take me to a verse and I show you the context.

01:29:25

You ignore the context. Then what's the Trinity? I just defined it. The Trinity is that there's one

01:29:31

God and three distinct simultaneous co -eternal persons. That's exact. You just said it in a more advanced way.

01:29:37

I said exactly that. No, you did not say exactly that.

01:29:44

I said one God and three separate beings. And we would deny that he's three separate beings because a being means a

01:29:51

God. We would not say that there are three separate gods. I never said that.

01:29:59

You just said three beings. I'm telling you what the word means. You're doing that repeatedly.

01:30:07

And you correct that by studying what it is so that you use a terminology that we

01:30:12

Trinitarians use instead of misrepresenting it. You apparently haven't studied.

01:30:26

Can I show you something? Show me. All right. You have a Bible in front of you? Hi. I'm on the website

01:30:34

Bible Hub right now. Go to Psalm 116 .4. What version do you want to use?

01:30:41

KJV. Okay. Psalm. Say it one more time. 116 .4.

01:30:47

116 .4. Then called

01:30:54

I upon the name of the Lord, O Lord, I beseech thee deliver my soul. So it says the phrase called upon the name of the

01:31:03

Lord. The word Lord there is Yod -Heh -Vod -Heh. It's the Tetragrammaton, the four letters of God's name.

01:31:09

That's God you're talking to, right? God Almighty, right? Right.

01:31:16

Right. Okay. And O Lord, I beseech thee deliver my soul. So he's praying called upon the name of Jehovah of Yahweh.

01:31:24

That's to pray to him, right? Right. Go on.

01:31:33

But he says, O Lord, I beseech thee deliver my soul. He's praying to him, right? Right, I guess.

01:31:39

Yeah. That doesn't mean the Son is on the same level.

01:31:46

I was just looking at Psalm 116 .4. You got Jesus on the same level out of that?

01:31:54

Because that verse is about God the Father. Good. So when it says the phrase called upon the name of the

01:32:01

Lord, it's talking about God the Father, right? Talking about God Almighty, right? Right. Okay.

01:32:07

Look at 1 Corinthians 1 .2. 1 Corinthians 1 .2. What about 8 .6?

01:32:14

Look at 1 Corinthians 1 .2, will you please? Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints with all that in every place, call upon the name of Jesus Christ our

01:32:33

Lord, both theirs and ours. Wow. Call upon the name of Jesus our

01:32:38

Lord. Call upon. It's awfully similar to Psalm 116 .4, isn't it?

01:32:46

Well, one of them is in Hebrew. The other is in Greek. I know. So that phrase is used of Jesus.

01:32:53

Call upon the name of the Lord Jesus. Interesting phrase, don't you think?

01:33:09

I guess not. No. You still have to remember that the Father is higher.

01:33:17

He's higher. Okay. 1 Corinthians 8 .6. I notice that when

01:33:25

I bring things to you, you ignore them, but yet you want me to go to your stuff. There's one

01:33:30

God, the Father, from whom are all things for Him and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things will exist through Him.

01:33:36

Okay. So there's one God, the Father. The Trinitarians believe that.

01:33:41

There's only one God, the Father. Of whom are all things versus by whom are all things.

01:33:50

Okay. So by whom, for Him. So in other words, God the Father made all things by Himself.

01:33:56

Is that what it is? By Himself? Yes. Okay. So He made everything by Himself, right?

01:34:05

Exactly. Okay. If I go to Colossians 1 .16 for by Him, that's

01:34:10

Jesus. All things are created, both the heavens and the earth, visible and invisible, whether they're thrones or dominions or rulers.

01:34:16

All things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things. So by Him, all things were created by Jesus.

01:34:27

So if God the Father did it by Himself, how is it that Jesus did it? You should have taken much better notes before.

01:34:38

I agree. You should have taken much better notes.

01:34:44

Can I show you a couple of verses? That was classic. It was good.

01:34:50

Yeah. Can I show you some verses? Fine. Can you go to Genesis 19 .24?

01:35:17

The Lord reigned upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah, brimstone and fire from the

01:35:24

Lord out of heaven. The Lord is YHWH, YHWH, Jehovah, or Yahweh.

01:35:32

So Yahweh reigned fire and brimstone from Yahweh. That's interesting, don't you think?

01:35:43

Yahweh reigned it from Yahweh? Here, let me show you something else.

01:35:55

Amos 4, 10 and 11. I'm going to read out of the King James. God is talking,

01:36:01

I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt. Your young men have I slain with the sword and I've taken away your horses and I have made the stink of your camp to come up in your nostrils that you have not returned to me, saith

01:36:14

Yahweh. I overthrew some of you as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

01:36:20

Wait a minute. Why would Yahweh say that he overthrew them the way God did it? I've got something.

01:36:35

I'm just asking you. Jehovah reigned from Jehovah and Jehovah destroyed people just like God overthrew

01:36:44

Sodom and Gomorrah. Who's that guy smirking in the corner? I don't know. Who is that smirking in the corner?

01:36:52

It's probably the Levite. Ben, how about a couple more verses?

01:37:00

I'm from Judah. Ben, let me run a couple more things by you. If you could go to Exodus 6 verses 2 and 3.

01:37:16

Are you going to do that? You're going to look? I'm going to have you read a couple of things and show you something and ask you some questions.

01:37:23

I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob by the name of God Almighty, but by name

01:37:31

Jehovah was I not known to them. Verse 2 actually.

01:37:37

God spoke unto Moses. God speaking to Moses said to him, I am Yahweh. Let me debate him.

01:37:46

I will destroy him. Hold on a second. Hold on a second. God spoke to Moses. That's God speaking.

01:37:53

He identifies himself as Yahweh. Then he said he appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as God Almighty.

01:38:02

That would be the Father. God the Father that appeared, right? Right. God Almighty appeared.

01:38:09

That's God the Father appeared in the Old Testament. Now let's go to John 6 verse 46.

01:38:16

This is what it says in John 6 verse 46. Not that any man hath seen the

01:38:22

Father, save which he is from God, he hath seen the Father. That's talking about himself,

01:38:27

Jesus. So not that any man has seen the Father. Wait a minute.

01:38:33

You said they saw God the Father, God Almighty, God the Father in the Old Testament. But Jesus says not that any man has seen the

01:38:41

Father. So Jesus said that the ones they were seeing in the

01:38:46

Old Testament was not God the Father, but it was God Almighty. So who's God Almighty who's not the

01:38:51

Father? Who's God Almighty?

01:38:58

Who's not the Father? Ask that question one more time.

01:39:05

Clarify it. Exodus 6, 2 and 3, what you read, it says

01:39:10

God Almighty appeared and you said that was a Father. No problem.

01:39:17

We go to John 6 verse 46. Jesus says no one's ever seen the Father at any time.

01:39:23

So they were seeing God Almighty in the Old Testament, but Jesus says it wasn't the Father. So who were they seeing in the

01:39:33

Old Testament who is God Almighty but not the Father? Who were they seeing in the

01:39:44

Old Testament who's God Almighty but not the Father? Trust me, it was the

01:39:51

Father. But Jesus says it wasn't the Father, not that any man has seen the

01:39:57

Father. He could have been just speaking to them.

01:40:05

He was talking to them and he said nothing. For the burning bush when he spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai. This is

01:40:10

John 6, 46. No one has seen the Father. And in Exodus 6, 2 and 3, you said he saw

01:40:18

God the Father. Like I said before,

01:40:30

I should have taken better notes. I agree. I agree. I would suggest you go to my website and start reading up because the arguments that you have are not any good and you don't know what you're criticizing very well and you've not studied the issue sufficiently.

01:40:49

This is important. I've shown you a verse in Hebrews 1, 8 where God calls Jesus God.

01:40:55

You just ignore it. You can't ignore God's word if you're believe truth. Okay.

01:41:01

What else should I talk about then? I think that the

01:41:07

Father sent down his son to reunite the 12 tribes under God.

01:41:16

Well, that's nice. Let me show you some verses. No, I'm not interested in getting into all that.

01:41:23

Don't change topics. You need to learn something from Matt right now. Instead of trying to attack and just move on to another topic, learn from him.

01:41:32

He's trying to teach you. He's trying to show you what the scripture says and yet you continually ignore the word.

01:41:42

It sounds to me, Ben, like there's a judgment on you. God's judgment is on you.

01:41:48

You have believed lies, you're teaching lies, you ignore the word of God. You subject the word of God to yourself.

01:41:57

Well, I was spoken to by an angel. Yeah, maybe you were. A fallen angel.

01:42:05

Yeah. A fallen angel? Sure. Absolutely not. Sure. Because the true angel of God would never teach what you're teaching.

01:42:17

So you were probably, if you say you're an angel of purity, well, even Satan appears as an angel of light.

01:42:24

It sounds to me like you were deceived by something because you're teaching stuff that's not scriptural. And when

01:42:30

I ask you questions about Jesus being God, you ignore them. An angel taught you this.

01:42:37

It wasn't from God. An angel taught me many things. Yeah. Joseph Smith said an angel taught him things.

01:42:46

Muhammad said an angel taught him things. Well, Joseph Smith was practically right though. Because the

01:42:54

Native Americans are true Israelites. Wow. Okay. Maybe we could see if anyone else has a question.

01:43:04

Well, we're coming up almost on the top of the hour. Yeah. Hey, Matt, you and I were over in, we went to the

01:43:15

Mayan ruins. Do you remember that? That's right. Okay. Do you remember our guide?

01:43:21

There's two very important things with what Joseph Smith and Ben is saying.

01:43:29

The argument that the 10 lost tribes of Israel came to America, came to the

01:43:36

Mayan ruins. Here's the thing. And I don't know if you remember this.

01:43:41

One thing is he was using the Mayan language and my wife understood it, different words.

01:43:48

Now, Matt, what language did my wife, was she raised to speak? She speaks Chinese.

01:43:53

Chinese. Exactly. The other thing, so not only is the Mayan language a Chinese dialect, but the other thing that was very interesting is that he said that the

01:44:03

Mayans have what's called a Mongolian spot. Now, for folks who don't know what a

01:44:08

Mongolian spot is, a Mongolian spot is something that Asians have. It is something that is, it basically is what looks like a black and blue mark on babies over their butt.

01:44:20

Caused me to have to be in the hospital for a very long time when I brought my son in for, just because he had a high fever and they thought it was child abuse because they saw it was all black and blue.

01:44:30

It actually looks like a huge black and blue mark. And it is only genetically from Asians, not

01:44:38

Israelites. One of the things that the guide even brought up was the fact that, because he as a guide is there a lot, he hears the things from Joseph Smith and others.

01:44:49

And he was bringing up the fact that if you look at the language and we can see with linguistics, we can actually see how people move around the world from the 13 proto -languages, those first languages, we can see how people intermix and start making dialects that have a like Yiddish, which is

01:45:10

Hebrew and German. And we can see how that happens. Well, we can see the movements of people.

01:45:16

And so what you end up seeing is the Mayans would have been Asian. They would have come over from Asia, both by not only looking at the language, but looking at the genetics.

01:45:28

So that is a problem when people like Joseph Smith try to argue Joseph Smith's argument that the

01:45:34

Native Americans were the lost tribes of Israel, because the genetics don't work for them, neither does the language.

01:45:44

So not only do you have the scriptures, but you have science and in two different forms of science, linguistics and genetics against it.

01:45:58

So excuse me. Yes. Why? Why were the natives wearing fringes then?

01:46:08

Because the Asians wear fringes. I have

01:46:17

I have a formal Asian outfit and it has fringes. So I guess it would be because Asians wear fringes.

01:46:24

I said natives. Yeah, well, if they came from Asian areas.

01:46:30

Well, yeah, I know that. You asked, you got your answer. Maybe you'll have a comment or anything.

01:46:39

So why? Why was Solomon? Why did he have a long skin? So I'm going to I'll bring it.

01:46:48

The next one that came in here was traditional Catholic. I don't know that we're going to have.

01:46:56

Are you able to hear me? Yep. There you are. I forget your first name there. What's your first name again?

01:47:02

It's James. Yeah. Ben didn't leave yet, did he? No, he's still here.

01:47:10

He can he can hear you, Matt. I see Hebrews chapter two, verse nine.

01:47:16

It says Jesus was made lower, a little lower than the angels. Wouldn't that be speaking about his incarnation, becoming man, his human nature?

01:47:25

Yes. Under the law. Yeah. Philippians two, five through eight. Galatians four, four. Hebrews two, nine.

01:47:31

These are all verses I use as a unit. Usually. So then when

01:47:36

Hebrews chapter one is saying that he's made higher than the angels above the angels, then it's speaking about his resurrected ascended self, whereby he received all glory and power of the father.

01:47:47

Correct. Possible. And also in Hebrews one, ten.

01:47:55

I don't know if Ben accepts this or not, but if the father is speaking to the son all throughout the first chapter of Hebrews, then

01:48:03

Hebrews one, ten specifically says that it would be the father telling the son that in the beginning, the

01:48:10

Lord, Lord calling them, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth and the heavens are the work of your hands, which which is speaking about creation itself.

01:48:20

So I want I was curious if Ben believes that Psalm one oh two twenty five.

01:48:26

Well, Ben's not going to be able to respond. So we're going to move on. Shout outs, because while you were talking with Ben, we got a ninety nine cents from John Train as a super chat.

01:48:39

So thank you for that. We also got five dollars from Jason Manning. And he said, this guy, this guy's eyes are being opened.

01:48:46

Praise Jesus. That was when he was saying that he needed to take take better notes.

01:48:52

It was pretty funny. I'll I'll answer what Chris Wiggles in in the in chat says, can

01:48:59

Andrew give a quick breakdown of how and why he feels he's of the tribe of Levi?

01:49:04

OK, so and you can go search the last name Rappaport and you'll see its origins and things like that.

01:49:11

But basically the the name Rappaport is actually from the line of Korra back to Levi, back to Abraham.

01:49:21

And so the Korra Heights and this is one of the things

01:49:26

I'll just mention. Some people don't understand. If you go into the Middle Eastern countries, even today, many of those people can trace their lineage back many generations.

01:49:38

And because it's an important thing in certain cultures to have their genealogies, to be able to know that line.

01:49:48

So, yes, the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. And I know many people will say, oh, well, there's no way to have any records after that, except for one thing.

01:49:57

People who memorize records orally could then write it down again, which is exactly what happened.

01:50:03

Just like Enemy Mine. Like what? Is that some movie that I won't get?

01:50:11

Yes. Why do you do that? No, I'm not going to get it. It's a great movie.

01:50:17

Lil Scott Junior, they played an enemy, an alien, and he had to have the lineage repeated.

01:50:22

And it was good. Actually, there was a there was a book, a woman who wrote a book.

01:50:29

She came out of Islam, Middle Eastern country. I forget her name now, but she's a politician over in Europe.

01:50:38

And she said she could go back 14 generations in her lineage. For me to be

01:50:44

Bar Mitzvahed, I had to be able to go back several generations. I don't remember all of it now because I just didn't care enough.

01:50:51

And in some cultures like ours, that's going to happen. And so, you know, but the thing is, is that people can trace the lineage if it's important to them.

01:51:02

If you think about the book Roots from Alex Haley, how does Alex Haley know that lineage?

01:51:09

And that's like, I believe it was, I want to say seven to eight, maybe nine generations.

01:51:16

And yet he knew Kunta Kinte, what tribe he was from, because it was passed down. It was so important to them, they passed it down.

01:51:24

And when you have people that have a lineage that's important, they pass it down. And that's going to be the one thing that you end up seeing with people that claim they're from Judah.

01:51:34

They end up doing that, but they are going to, if he's a Hebrew -Israelite, like the way many of them do, if he's a

01:51:41

Black Hebrew -Israelite, they try to take the Bible out of context, say it says something it doesn't, to say it's a prophecy.

01:51:51

So here's the thing for Ben, Matt, people in the chat were saying how patient you were being with them.

01:51:58

I think what it was, and what I was pointing out to folks, and I want this to be a teaching time for folks, is what you were doing was just reading scripture.

01:52:07

You see a guy who's deceived, he came in very proud, he was going to demolish you on the

01:52:13

Trinity, like he was going to demolish me on, and now he wants to debate the

01:52:18

Catholic. He comes in very proud demolishing everyone, but all you had to do was read scripture, and he had to back away.

01:52:27

The scripture spoke. And this is, I think, a thing that you do often with folks, and maybe people didn't pick up on what you were doing.

01:52:34

You were just laying out the scriptures and letting him see what it says on its own. Not having to interpret it, not having to give meaning, just what does it say, read it.

01:52:45

And it was clear enough for him that he wanted to jump all over the place to avoid it, to jump, oh, well, let's talk about this, let's talk about that.

01:52:53

That's what people do. I think what you did there was give a good example, you didn't get frustrated, you didn't lose your patience, you just kept reading.

01:53:05

I think for many folks, we would get frustrated with things like that.

01:53:11

I think that what you did there was helpful for folks to see. So let me ask you this, is there anything, as you were having that conversation with Ben, that you were thinking, what was your thinking through that that might help folks when they're in a challenge like that with somebody?

01:53:28

Be patient, look at the text, look at the context. It's not very hard, huh?

01:53:35

No, not hard. Folks, the thing is this, is that there's a lot of people, we were talking earlier with people that do discernment, and they want to debate, they want to fight.

01:53:50

We should be doing discernment. In Philippians, it says that here you had Paul saying that he was correcting the false teachers with tears.

01:54:02

If you're going to do discernment, you're going to call people out, and you're not weeping. Notice the difference.

01:54:09

Ben came in, very prideful, he's going to destroy Matt. Matt had concern in his voice.

01:54:15

Matt had care, because Matt knows where this person is going to spend eternity.

01:54:21

He says he has an angel, and as Matt pointed out, an angel is not going to teach false doctrine, an angel is not going to teach something against scripture.

01:54:32

So if he had a vision from an angel, as Matt pointed out, that would be a demon, and his soul, we should be concerned.

01:54:39

I know that there's times when we hear guys like that, we want to laugh at it, we want to, there's some people that might want to mock, but we should have concern for this guy, because if he dies tonight, he's going to spend eternity in a lake of fire, because he doesn't know

01:54:56

Jesus Christ, and if he got a revelation from a demon, that's very scary.

01:55:03

So where we should, our concern should be for a guy like Ben, is that he would, instead of trying to prove how wrong everybody else is, that he'd submit himself to God and his word, and recognize his need to repent, to turn from trusting himself as a good person, or trusting in a vision, or trusting in his works, trust in Jesus Christ and him alone, what he did on that cross,

01:55:26

God Almighty. And let me say this, the reason why

01:55:32

Jesus has to be God, is because if Jesus is just a man, he cannot pay a fine for men.

01:55:41

If Jesus is just a man, then you will die in your sin, under God's judgment, and have eternity in a lake of fire, because a temporal being cannot pay an eternal fine for more than one person.

01:55:55

And only an eternal being can do that, and that's why Jesus had to be eternal. He had to be

01:56:01

God, because in being God, he is able to be a sacrifice for people, and being a sinless human being, he was a perfect sacrifice.

01:56:14

Being an eternal God, he can pay the fine for multiple people, and that fine, that is an eternal fine.

01:56:21

It's all on who Jesus is. So, you know, that's the thing that guys like Ben, we should be praying for his soul.

01:56:31

We should be praying that he would submit himself to God and his word, and that he might come to know

01:56:38

Jesus Christ tonight. That's my prayer, I'm sure it's going to be Matt's prayer. I'm looking,

01:56:46

John has sent out, Matt, the Hangout. Let me drop that here for the after show.

01:56:53

I dropped that in there for you. So, folks, this is Apologetics Live is something you can listen to the podcast.

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