TiL- A Defensive of Cessationism part 5

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TiL- A Defense of Cessationism part 6

00:00

Thank you for watching the truth and love podcast. Thank you for joining us. We really appreciate it.

00:05

This is a defense of cessationism part five What's up,

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Dan? How are you doing? I don't know. What are you doing? How are you doing? I don't know that either.

00:50

We are back on cessationism. Are you ready to tackle that with me again?

00:56

Yeah, let's do it. Okay, good deal. We're at the end of chapter 13.

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What we're doing is we are we're starting at the go -to place, 1st Corinthians, where we learn about the gifts of spirit.

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It's where it's the most talked about. 1st Corinthians 12, 13, 14. We've we've done an introduction and looked at verses prior to chapter 12.

01:21

We looked at chapter 12 and we're finishing chapter 13, hopefully in this episode.

01:27

This section, Dan, I believe I'm still going to differ with you a little bit.

01:34

Sorry to be wrong. Yes, it's okay. It's okay to be wrong. I've contemplated it.

01:41

I'm totally with you on most everything.

01:47

Well, everything that you've you've talked about so far. As far as we've talked, we've talked through this timeline idea where the

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Holy Spirit is always been active. Sure. From the beginning to the end.

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But it looks different at different places in that timeline.

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So where Christ is in that timeline, we've got this spike. That's what we've talked about. But the

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Holy Spirit activity has has always been present. Right. And so.

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And usually, I'll say this, usually we see the Holy Spirit's action involving or revolving around acts of creation, whether it be creation from Genesis or recreation or regeneration or giving of the new life in through Christ, which is why

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I think we saw those the sign gifts, you know, more heavily manifested around the time when

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Christ gospel was first going out when his redemption that was accomplished was being applied to people when that was happening, when the message of the cross was going forward.

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It was the act of recreation or regeneration or a, you know, the start starting of the new heavens and the new earth, the renewal of all things, starting with the hearts of men.

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Now, would you lump revelation in that what you're talking about? Revelation with a capital

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R or with a lowercase r? The giving of revelation from the spirit. Sure. Okay. Yeah, because God's record of what he's doing.

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You know, God's word is powerful to to save. So, yeah. Okay, so I think where we're going to start to differ.

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And hey, I'm with you. I know you were joking, but I'm not right on everything.

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I know you're a Baptist. That's right. I'm still growing. But I do want to have a

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I want to be close, at least. Sure. But I also want to grow. I want to know what

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I believe and be able to defend it, even if I'm wrong. And then the

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Holy Spirit can definitely show me through even through people and through the word, you know that I'm wrong.

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And I think we should all have that attitude. And I think that's, I think that's why we get along so well at the

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Truth and Love Network with the laborers. I mean, we all have, we try to at least have a heart of humility, where we can learn from each other.

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Right. Yeah, yeah. We open up the scriptures and look at them, rub up against that and each other and sharpen ourselves.

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So that way we're trying to become more and more Christlike in our action and theology at all times.

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Right. That's exactly right. So I think the first the first place where we're going to differ a little bit is if I'm remembering correctly on your your understanding of what ceases.

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So if if we're cessationist, we've got to say that something ceases.

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And so I think what I'm hearing from you in in the previous episodes is that it's the

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Holy Spirit's working at this spike level that we see in this timeline would be normative throughout the rest of the church.

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Is that a summation of? Throughout the rest of the church during that time period or throughout history?

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Throughout history. Uh, no, I don't know what you're saying.

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Try that again. Okay, because this is around my head around it. So just reflecting on what

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I've what I've heard you say is that so as a cessationist, something has to cease. And what I've heard you say is that it's it's the

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Holy Spirit's or this this activity that we're reading here would be normative.

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That has ceased. Oh, goodness, bug just flew up my nose. But yeah, yeah.

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Um, but yeah, what was normative for the church, these things cease to be normative for the church.

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So we so we don't see them in as great, great numbers as we did, because I believe there was a purpose for them.

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And that purpose had been served during during the time of the apostles through, you know, basically the end of the first century.

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Gotcha, gotcha. Towards the end of the first century. So here's here's what I'm saying.

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And a lot of that I can hang on to. And I agree with because I think they too served a purpose.

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And that's why one of the reasons why they ceased. Um, but looking at going back to a couple of verses that we've already looked at the end of chapter 12, where it says,

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So it seems like during this spike that we're talking about, these, these were particular giftings that the

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Holy Spirit gave to people so that they could administer these, these particular gifts, it can manifest through them, whereas prior to this spike and after this spike, the

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Holy Spirit gave to people so that they could administer these, these particular gifts, it can manifest through them, whereas prior to this spike and after this spike, the Holy Spirit gave to people so that they could administer these, these particular gifts, it can manifest through them, whereas prior to this spike and after this spike, the Holy Spirit gave to people so that they could administer these, these particular gifts, it can manifest through them, whereas prior to this spike and after this spike, the Holy Spirit gave to people so that they could administer these, these particular gifts, it can manifest through them, whereas prior to this spike and after this spike, the Holy Spirit gave to people so that they could administer these, these particular gifts, it can manifest through them, whereas prior to this spike and after this spike, it was more of the Holy Spirit. And still yet in, in both areas outside the spike and inside the spike, it's still at the will of the

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Holy Spirit. Right. But there's something different, it seems, or at least how it reads here. There were people who were miracle workers or had the gift of healing.

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Right. And they would have, they would have used those gifts and operated those gifts through the power of the

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Holy Spirit and not, I wouldn't say not in contradiction to the will of the Holy Spirit.

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Right. So it's not like, you know, it was a genie in a bottle somewhere. Right. Right.

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But they're working through the power of the Holy Spirit. Sure. Yeah. So that's, that's what

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I see as what has ceased, not the working of the Holy Spirit. He's worked prior to the spike.

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He's worked after the spike, but this particular way of working, because it was used to confirm the message and the messenger that had, that's what ceased because we know something ceased according to the passage we're going to look at today.

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Well, I would agree with that. I just don't necessarily think that this section of first Corinthians is where we should go to prove that.

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Okay. That's another place where I think I'm, I'm not there yet. I think there is still enough here at this last, uh, section that we can use.

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There's, there's tidbits here that we could use, I think. Well, I don't, we'll get into it, but I don't,

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I don't think that the purpose of, I don't think the purpose of it saying that they're going to cease here is to prove that it's ceasing.

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I think it's more of a, uh, how you say it's describing what's going to happen, but not proving it.

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Yeah. I think it just kind of goes out. It means like, yeah, you, you, you foretell in the future, you know, really that's what he's doing.

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He's prophesying here. And he's not prophesying necessarily.

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Um, it's, it's not a, it's not approved because it's not what he's trying to prove, but there's other places where he's trying to prove it.

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So it's like, you couldn't go here to prove it, but when you see it here, you can be like, okay, he's referring to these other things that we're going to prove elsewhere.

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Gotcha. Gotcha. So it kind of, it bleeds through, but it's not proving here.

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So I'll tell you how we'll, we can handle this if you're okay with it. So we'll, we'll work our way through this and you can show us what, how you feel like this, what the purpose of Paul is in this, in writing this.

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And then I can, I can share with how I believe that part of the ceasing is bleeding out in that message, where it may not be the main subject, but it's bleeding out and I can share what

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I see and how it's bleeding out. All right. So first Corinthians 13, starting in verse eight, love never fails.

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But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with. If there are tongues, they will cease.

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If there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

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When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child. When I became a man,

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I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.

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Now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as, just as I also have been fully known.

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But now faith, hope, love abide, these three, but the greatest of these is love. So share with us what you feel like the main purpose

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Paul is trying to get out here. So Paul is, is working with the people who are immature in their faith.

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This is why he said verse 11, when I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason as a child.

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When I became a man, I did away with childish things. He's, he's bringing it out. We've looked at that in chapter, was it two and three, where, you know, he told him that, you know,

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I wish you could, um, wish I could talk to you like adults, but right now you need, need spiritual milk instead of meat.

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So what he's trying to do is he's trying to say, and you guys have missed the point of these gifts. You're trying to say that these gifts are,

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I don't know, some way for you to puff yourself up or think, well, I'm cool. I'm, I'm better than somebody else.

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Or look at all the, the, the funky power I have. Um, that's, that's not,

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I'm trying to show you a better way than that. And the reason why he's trying to show him a better way is because what really lasts is not these man, these, these flashy, so to speak, um, manifestations of the spirit.

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What lasts is the true change of heart, the union with God that produces in us, you know, like first Peter says, makes them partake in the divine nature of God.

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One of those things being that they would grow in faith and hope and love. So he says, the love never fails, verse eight.

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Uh, but if prophecy it's going away, um, if tongues, they will cease.

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If knowledge, it will be done away with these gifts that, you know, I told you to go after prophecy.

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I told you to seek the gifts that would desire to help the church, but what

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I want you to, to do is I want you to go and focus on the things that are going to last and be around for forever.

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These gifts are here for a reason to build up the body of the church while we're in this time before Christ returns and he consummates all things.

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So that way, you know, when all things, oh, stop.

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Okay. But what, what won't stop you froze on us? Oh no, I do have bad weather.

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Where did I stop? Just, I can't remember the last thing you said.

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Okay. Let me back up a little bit. So he's saying, um, you know,

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I want you to have the prophecy. I want you to have, um, tongues. I want you to have knowledge, but I want you to more than that focus on love because love is going to last even when those things don't.

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So don't focus on things that are going to fall away or not be used any longer.

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Focus on love. And so, uh, he says in verse nine, uh, we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect or the complete comes, the partial will be done away with the partial.

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I think is, is, you know, when we don't have Christ face to face, we have these other things in front of us.

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Some of them are, you know, prophecy, tongues, knowledge, really almost all the gifts, but we have, what he's trying to get them to look for is faith, hope, and love.

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Cause he says, uh, verse, uh, 12, for now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face.

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So in other words, it's like, we're looking through a dirty mirror now, or we're looking at ourselves in a reflection of a dirty mirror.

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We can't see everything exactly how we should, but we have these things to hold onto from God. But what we need to focus on is what we're going to see when that glass is wiped clean, but we're going to see there, we need to see, but then face to face

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God and his righteousness, which would be the love of God in our lives.

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Now I know in part, but then I'll know full, I will know fully just, uh, just as that, just as I have been fully known.

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So that, that relationship between God and man is going to be completed, but now abide.

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No. So now focus on faith, hope, and love. The greatest of these is love.

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He's trying to turn to teach them that they need to be more worried about having Christ formed in them, having the love of God be manifest in them through the power of the spirit, rather than trying to have these gifts that they're going to be able to, um, make themselves look good in the church.

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Cause we know that that was an issue because he's saying, Hey guys, not everybody's ahead. Some people are afoot.

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Not everybody can be this or that. So just desire what is best for you. But even more than that, let's concentrate on what it means to be loving, to have the, the love of God worked in our lives manifested among us.

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And I think that's what he's trying to Sure. So I don't necessarily think he's, he's saying when the gifts of prophecy, knowledge and tongues are going to cease.

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I don't think that's his purpose. I think his purpose is more pastoral and teaching them to watch

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Christ be formed in them through faith, hope, and love. Right. I get what you're saying and I'll follow along and I'm, I'm with you like a hundred percent way.

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Um, I'm, I'm seeing a little bit, a little bit differently.

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So I do see where he, where you're talking about, he has a different purpose.

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You know, I'm good with that. Um, but, but where it bleeds over, um, I think he, it's not an accident or it's not veiled.

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I mean, he kind of does give a timeline. He's when the perfect comes. So he does, he does give some, some timeframe here, um, or, or some time indicators of when they will cease when the, when the perfect comes and, and, and I'm totally on board.

17:32

Go ahead. Yeah. Um, real quick, cause I don't think I covered this. Um, I think that when that perfect comes or when the complete comes, um, is the same thing as what he's talking about down there in verse 12, where he says, um, now we see dimly then face to face now in part, uh, then

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I will be, um, I will know just as I've been fully known. So I think he's, he's, um,

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I think he's, he's pushing this off to the consummation here, you know, for, for all three of those, those gifts, even really, um, really almost all the gifts that are, that are mentioned, we're not gonna have apostles or, or, uh, teachers anymore.

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Cause we won't need teachers in heaven. Right. They'll be done away with, but love will remain.

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So focus on love. Right. Yeah. Well, and we've talked about this before and, and so we still remain in a little bit of a disagreement, but this is, this is where I see it.

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And, and what I'm seeing. So when the perfect comes, there's the timeframe.

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And, and I'll give an example of just people who, and I know, you know, so it will be for the benefit of maybe people who are watching and listening, um, kind of the hermeneutic that I would use and how

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I would reason this out. So similar to the eschatology and how

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I get to the eschatology I get to when I'm reading Matthew chapter 24. So you, you've got the, kind of the, the first part there,

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Matthew chapter 24, talking about all these, um, strange things that are going to happen.

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You, this tribulation is going to happen. Um, and stuff was sun and stars and moon, all kinds of different things that are hard to understand, hard to interpret.

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But then you get to 33 and 34 and you have these time indicators where it tells you all these things must take place.

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Um, and to, before this generation passed away. So that generation to whom he's speaking is telling you that they are the ones who are going to see all these things.

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So that's, that helps me with my timeframe. And so instead of looking for all these things in, in my future and figuring out or trying to impose, um, um, a modern meeting onto the text, you know, grasshoppers or Blackhawk helicopters or whatever it is.

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Oh my. Yeah. I'm going to be trying to figure out a different way to understand and interpret what those things meant.

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So I'm looking for indicators here. Um, and, and one of those indicators,

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I see, I may not completely be on board with the, the perfect and the, and the seeing face to face is the consummation at the end.

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I'm not fully on board with that, but I'm not fully convinced on what it is yet.

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Um, a lot of people say, um, you'll, you'll study. Some people are listening to hear some people and they'll talk about the complete or perfect being scripture.

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The canon is closed. They'll talk about that being the perfect. Um, so I'm not,

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I'm not there yet to say which one I agree with. The reason I don't think it's the consummation is because of these, um, these hints that Paul gives us here.

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And, and I think in our interview, Jonathan helped answer this question and, um, kind of give his thoughts on or to give an answer to my dilemma.

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And, and then I think you, you try to answer this dilemma as well. And I still yet kind of lean this direction.

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So he says, faith, hope, and love will abide just like you were talking about.

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These other things are going to cease. They're going to go away. They're going to be done away with, but it's faith, hope, and love.

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That's going to abide. That's kind of the main purpose. These flashy things are going to leave, but these are going to abide.

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So you need to focus on these things. So if it's, if this happens at the consummation, when, when everything is glorified and everything is in his perfected state, according to what

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Christ does that, you know, how he makes us new, um, in, in our glorified state, we don't need to have faith.

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Faith does not need to abide further because faith is the, the essence or the conviction of, of things hoped for the essence of things not seen, or I'm butchering that verse, but, um, the conviction of things not seen, but we were, it says we're seeing him face to face, if that's what that means.

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And so our, our faith has become sight, if you will. So if it's become sight, faith does not need to abide anymore.

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Um, and that's why I can't hang on to this or, or fully grab onto the fact that this may be the consummation.

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Um, so let me ask you this. If you think it is something sooner, uh, say even, um, 70

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AD or, or first century or the lifetime of the apostles or so somewhere in there. Right. Um, would you say that now prophecy and knowledge have also been done away with?

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So the, that's what I was getting at, at the very beginning. That's why I started with that. So this chapter 12, 29, 30 and 31 that we were talking about how he administered these gifts has ceased.

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So these things may happen. They happen prior to the spike after the spike, but, and it's according to his will.

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But what I'm seeing that has ceased is what he's describing in first Corinthians chapter 12, these particular gifts where an individual can administer the healing, the administer, the, the prophecy or the, or the knowledge, um, or whatever the gift may be.

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I see a difference in, in the Holy spirit's work here. He's gifting a person to do something outside the spike.

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He, the Holy spirit is like, like James, you go to James, call upon the elders to anoint and pray.

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It doesn't, doesn't mean that any of us have the ability that somebody here in first Corinthians chapter 12 had that they were a, they were gifted with healing so they could go in and they could heal that person.

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So James is saying, all right, send the elders to anoint and pray. The elders go in and anoint and pray.

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They may not be healed, but it's up to the Holy spirit. So I think it, it, it was being weaned off in their time because you don't see, you don't see it communicated as much after first Corinthians.

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Um, you don't see it happening as much, um, based on scriptural where, where do you see that the gifts have or the, the, our, our ability to use the gifts are is changed from a, um, cause really what, what we said earlier was that the gifts that were being used before were all used by the power of the

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Holy spirit and the timing of the Holy spirit and by the will of the spirit. How, how would that have changed moving forward?

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Cause you said it's an administration thing, but if it's all always, if it always had been by the power will and a prerogative of the

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Holy spirit, then how has, how has that changed? Right. Um, that's what

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I'm trying to explain. And I guess I'm not being as clear as I should be. So the, the particular gift here in first Corinthians that is given that ceases is the gift.

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What he's, what the Holy spirit is willing here at this time is a certain, a certain gift to give a person to be a healer, to give the person to have knowledge, to give, give the person to be one who speaks in tongues.

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Um, and so they would be able to identify, like they were able to identify Paul at one point, he is a healer, sin for, um, his

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Hanky. And so Paul had that particular gift. But when you go to James, they didn't call for a

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Hanky from Paul or the faith healer. They called for the elders who would pray.

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And the elders were praying that the Holy spirit would work. Do you see the difference here?

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Here in this spike, you have healers, people who administered the gift afterwards.

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It's the Holy spirit that administers the gifts. Well, the Holy book, like we said earlier, the

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Holy spirit has always been the one who administers the gifts. He's just doing it through the agency of a person, but it's a different kind of gift here.

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The Holy spirit. And that's what I'm asking. Like, yeah. Yeah. Where, where is it? Where in the text does it say that that has changed?

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I mean, you can, you see something happening in, in James that talks about the normative practice for the church, for, for no, all of, all of future history, if that's a way you can put it,

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I don't know. Now here's how things are supposed to work. If you get sick, call your elders, have them come lay their hands on you, anoint you with oil.

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And if you, to seek healing, and if you, if you had any sins, they'll be forgiven. But that's just a description of a normative practice for the church.

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It doesn't necessarily talk to if somebody does have the gift changed.

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So this is the thing is, is if you see, if you're sick, don't call the faith healer, call your elders who are there to care for your soul.

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I mean, really that that's all I'm saying. I don't know if it's necessarily proving a point. Sure. Sure.

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And I agree with that, but it's, it's showing the normal, um, what he's, what he's expressing, what should be the normal practice of your church.

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And it's not calling the faith healer, but call the elders. And, and your question was, where do we see passage or, or some scripture that say, this has stopped and this, this is not normative anymore.

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So it, to me, it's this passage right here. It's, it says, these will cease.

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Now I'm like I said, when the, when the perfect comes, but right.

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I can't say what that is. I'm just basing on the hints that I'm seeing here. It's not the consummation because we don't need faith after we see them face to face.

28:59

Well, I think we'll still have faith in heaven. I mean, we, I don't think we're necessarily going to just be blown up into, uh, you know, all, all, all knowing creatures.

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We'll still, we'll enter into, into the eternal state, still needing to know things, uh, still learning and, and growing in our, our, our trust of the

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Lord. It's just, we'll do it sinlessly. Right. So what was the purpose of the gifts? It was to confirm the message and the messenger.

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So if, if we're seeing Jesus face to face, we, we don't need faith, hope, and love that the, the message is, um, accurate and infallible and true anymore.

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You, you, you do still. Um, and here's, here's why, um, the, the angels were sinless, um, created sinless, saw the

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Lord face to face and fell into sin. Um, we will one day have our sin completely taken away.

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We don't have it forgiven. Now it'll be ripped from us to have that change where it's no longer, there will be sinless beings.

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Um, we are still going to need faith, hope, and love because,

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I mean, we're still going to have the ability, I say ability isn't like, you know,

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I could punch something. No, that's a terrible way of putting it.

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I could punch something, but I'm not going to, we still have the, the appendages and the wherewithal to sin.

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We just won't have the ability because that will have been taken from us by Christ. No sin will be, have been removed from us, but we'll still need faith, hope, and love because we'll still have the, um, we'll still have the, the, uh, the tools necessary to sin, but because of faith, hope, and love being perfected in us through the love of Christ.

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So having those things, we won't sin anymore because of the work of God in us.

31:04

Gotcha. Well, I hope that I was somewhat clear on what

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I thought ceased. And, and when I, I'm not sure, I do think it was around the first century.

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I'm just, I'm just pushing up against you so that way we can, we can pull, we can pull stuff out and have a good conversation. I think you were clear.

31:22

Okay, good deal. I did. We've, we've displayed, or we have offered two options.

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Sure. And I, I speak more than I should probably. So maybe my option got a little bit more airtime, but that's okay.

31:36

Yeah. So we, we've, we've put out there two options. Um, and, and Dan, just in summary,

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Dan feels like that, uh, what he's seen in scripture is that this is talking about that with the timeframe that we're looking at here is the consummation is when these, these, the, these gifts are no longer needed after the consummation.

31:58

Fully and finally needed. Now I would, I would agree with you on, cause you're going to say that you think that, that, uh, tongues and, uh, healing miracles, things like that generally ceased around the time of the apostles.

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And I'm going to agree with you on that. I'm just not going to come here to prove it. Gotcha. Gotcha. And, and I think we somewhat can, um, and, and I hope it didn't discourage you that I've, I haven't fully found my foundation on the timeframe of the perfect and it's coming, but, um,

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I hope I've done a good job of explaining why and where I get that. So there's, there's your two options. People have been, been trying to look into that and see what that means for,

32:48

Oh man, hundreds, hundreds of years. So I doubt we're going to take care of it in 30 minutes.

32:54

Right? Well, perfect. A lot of times means complete and you look at passages in the

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Psalms and it says the law of the Lord is perfect, renewing, restoring the soul.

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So if, if it's, if the law, the word of God is perfect and if the perfect comes, it may,

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Paul may not have that in mind. It may not be his reference, but it is, it is mentioned in scripture that or told us, told to us that the law of God, the word of God is perfect and complete.

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We, we know at this point, the new Testament, it was not complete. Um, the Canon was not closed, but then at some point it was

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God, God did do a final revelation, um, inspired a final book and it was closed.

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And so the, the perfect was made complete and it could be that perfect with scripture.

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Do what? If the perfect was scripture, if the perfect was scripture, right? That's right. So the, what we do know, and, uh, and, and I hope this is not discouraging to, to folks.

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We have to, we have to embrace the reality that differences are out there, that scripture sometimes is hard for us and it's not scripture's fault.

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It's not God's fault. It's us who are finite, who, who are fallible, who, who do mess up.

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It's, it's our fault that we cannot comprehend perfectly. So, but it can cause some to, to shake in their faith or be discouraged because, well, if, if God is this or God is that, why are there differences in the dominations?

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Why are there differences interpretations? So it could cause some people to, to shake in their faith a little bit, have some questions, but we want you to, we don't want it to do that for you other than to dive you deeper into his word.

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But what we do know and what we hold on to Dan and I'm, and all the guys at the laborers podcast, what we hold on to firmly together is that, that Jesus is

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God. He's the second person of that. He came to this earth for a purpose to bring his kingdom and to, to die a death in our place that we deserved and to do that for God's glory and for our good.

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And he did that so that we could be born again. So we can be safe. So we could enter into that kingdom, which he now reigns forever and ever and ever.

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And so he, he, his reign will never end. It's going to continue. And scripture commands us to repent of our sins and put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ.

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So we would encourage you to do that. And if you've done that, if you've received it, we'd encourage you to share it.

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Dan, would you mind to close us in prayer? Yeah, man. Dear heavenly father, thank you for today.

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Thank you for your Holy spirit and for the gifts that you've given to us. Pray that you would use your spirit in us to glorify you and to uplift the church and that you would have your way in us truly and completely in Christ's name we pray.

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Amen. Amen. Thank you, Dan. Thank you, brother. I really appreciate it. And thank you guys for watching.

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Appreciate your support. Can you pray for us? Continue watching, like, follow, share and all that good stuff. And remember that Jesus is

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King. Go live in the victory of Christ. Go speak with the authority of Christ. Go share the gospel of Christ.