TiL- A Defense of Cessationism part 6

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A Defense of Cessationism part 7

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Welcome to the truth in love podcast Today we are continuing our series on defense of cessationism.

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It is part six. Stay with us You Dan how are you doing?

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I'm good. I've got one question for you. Yes, sir in our intro There is aerial drone footage of some

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Place in the world. Do you know where that is? No idea. I didn't know I didn't know if maybe maybe you knew somebody who got a picture of Kings Mountain or or so.

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I had no idea It's stock footage from the service we used to make the pictures and videos

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Well, I'd be curious to know where that is. I would too. Maybe we can turn it over to somebody.

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Maybe they can figure it out You know our cameras do that now you take a picture and that can identify locations and Pretty pretty nifty technology we got now.

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Yeah, it's creepy. Yeah, it is Pop in a photo of somebody

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I know exactly where they were no 17 .5 hours ago So nice that is creepy, but it's possible.

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Yeah, which was right Which what makes it it's what makes it creepy. Oh my goodness, so I Had a question for you.

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I'm gonna ask you all fair, but let me ask you now So if you were to give me on the spot, yeah, if you were to give your beard a seasonal name like Like I was

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I was gonna call my hat myself the winter beard for obvious reasons Well, if your beard had a seasonal name

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What would you call it? Seasonal name. Yeah. Well If I were to pick a season for it.

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Yeah. Yeah. Oh Summer because the thing it goes in every which direction

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I can't tame it It's like somebody let the grass grow all summer and it's just a jungle out there Well, welcome to the truth and love podcast with the summer beard and the winter beard

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Yeah, that's no miser and he miser over there We're gonna continue in cessationism we've started with the go -to passages when it comes to Continuation the spiritual gifts 1st

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Corinthians 12 13 and 14 Our first one was the first part of Corinthians Just a quick overview of setting the stage laying a foundation before we got to chapter 12

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We've been through chapter 12 been through chapter 13. We have ended up Dan and I Ended up with a little disagreement.

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He sees the the end of chapter 13 kind of in in one way I saw it in another but but Paul is speaking of the the spiritual gifts ceasing going away and And I really like what

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Dan had to say about Paul's emphasis there since that is the case.

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The emphasis is not those things But those things are going to abide which is faith hope and love.

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Is that accurate to say that? Yep. Yeah So I totally am on board with that and I appreciate that And I hope my power does not flicker again.

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We're going through a storm right now So we don't have to redo this but hey, we have we have blue skies and 74 degrees here in upstate,

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New York Which I don't know how y 'all do down there anymore cuz man

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I don't know summer summertime up here is just gorgeous, of course In January February when

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I'm telling y 'all it's like negative 20 like four foot of snow outside Gets it gets it makes up for it.

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I'm telling you Retirement relocation is sounding better and better every every summer that we go through.

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Well One of here's the thing one of the one of the largest or fastest losing states for as part of population is,

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New York Our last two governors have said it's because of the weather I beg to differ but the weather definitely doesn't help

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You think maybe more because of the politics a lot to do with the politics. Yeah. Oh So So that the emphasis is on I would say and you can add to this list and I'm just gonna

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I'm gonna name two Not so much individual but church focused sure, and then the second one is we're leaving these things behind or We don't want to overemphasize the spiritual gifts.

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Here's what we want to focus on faith open love Earlier in chapter was at 11 and we'll see it again in chapter 14.

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It talks about orderly worship Chapter 11, however, you land on head coverings it it talks about Ordering yourself a right people who are in proper submission to where they're supposed to be of the

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Lord's Supper you know don't be going crazy and doing stupid stuff some of you're sick and even dying because you're

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You're incurring the the wrath of God the judgment of God because you are you're not properly discerning the body so he's talking to Here you go individuals in chapter 12.

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This is what you need to understand about your gifts. It's not really about you It's about the church. We want to focus on love

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But since these spiritual gifts are important, let's see how as a body we can use them to build one another up Yeah, and it's interesting.

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You wrote brought up that topic from chapter 11 I'm not prepared to make have a discussion or make the comparison, but it's interesting how the continuationists want to dwell in this area right here when it comes to spiritual gifts, but you go into their churches and They're not dwelling too much on the the head coverings and you know jewelry and braided hair

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Part of it. I don't know it's very still out on head coverings for me. We're Me and a couple of good friends are discussing that topic.

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We got our our elders involved and we're Discussing learning and going through this one together, so okay,

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I'm not gonna say anything I'm not gonna put anything out on the internet that I may need to take back in a couple weeks

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We'll put it that way. Well, it will be interesting once you come to a conclusion on that to Hear that discussion.

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That'd be a good podcast. Yeah, what you guys land somewhere We can better help people understand the issues around it, even if we don't

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Sure, sure, so, um Dan seems to think that the there's a there's better arguments elsewhere than these three chapters for Cessationism, but we wanted to start here because these are the go -to passages and this will be our our last chapter.

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Go ahead well, and I think one of the stronger arguments for for at least a

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Purpose for cessation a purpose for these gifts that would have ended in the first century I think that it does start to come out in chapter 14.

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Okay towards the end of chapter 14 I don't necessarily think he's touching on it here in 13 because of why he's bringing up ceasing but he

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I think he goes there in chapter 14, especially when he Starts talking about he quotes a passage in Isaiah, but we'll get to that here in the next couple weeks

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We'll make y 'all hang on and listen up and come back for the next one

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So let's start we're gonna kind of break it up in between where Paul breaks it up in his Man -made verses here

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So we're going to do verses 1 and 2 of chapter 14 pursued love Yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy

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For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God where no one understands

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But in his spirit he speaks mysteries Yeah, it seems like Paul has a

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Emphasis on one over the other and he's he's gonna lay out his argument for that. Yeah, he really he puts the emphasis on love

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What are you supposed to pursue run after where's your where's your goal your aim? If you're gonna reach out your hand and grab a hold of something, what's it gonna be love?

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now on the way There are spiritual gifts. So with love in mind

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Desire the spiritual gifts that will help you love your your brothers and sisters and neighbors Absolutely.

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So he says prop prophecy and he doesn't say why here but he does very soon says desire prophecy

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He says speaking in tongues is good too because you're speaking wonderful mysteries of God, but Nobody can understand you except for God.

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No unless there's interpreter so he's he's trying to bring up a point that The thing that Will help the most is something that's intelligible something that that's

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Something that your brain can wrap around. Mm -hmm, but he gets into that argument fairly bluntly

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Yeah, quickly. Yeah alright, so let's do um three through six, but one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and Consolation one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself the one who prophesies edifies the church now,

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I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy and the and Greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues unless he interprets so that the church may receive at edifying But now brethren if I come to you speaking in tongues

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What will I profit you unless I speak to you either by way of revelation or of knowledge or prophecy or of teaching?

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Right. He says where was it? Is it in the last verse? It says in verse two it says but in his spirit no one understands but in his spirit

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He speaks mysteries. So the spirit of the man is speaking mysteries when the gift of tongues is exercise

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So it when it says that he edifies himself, that's good. I mean you should be you should be edified

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Even sometimes it's good to be edified so that way you can be blessing to to somebody else You know, you can you can serve them from a full cup

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So it's not a bad thing that you would have a gift that would edify yourself because maybe

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I just I need to have some edification so I can go out there and Know serve my brothers from from a place where God has done this for me.

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I've seen his power work and man I'm gonna pass it on to you somehow some way either through no service or Or if there's an interpreter there who can understand what was being said, but he says that the whole purpose of the one who speaks prophecies to men is edification exhortation and would you say consolation?

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Yeah, the NASB 95 says Oh, where's it at verse 3

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Consolation. Yeah. Yeah in the legacy standard Bible. It says edification exhortation or encouragement

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Hmm, so it's it's the consolation encouragement st. No. Yeah. Yeah, right

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So the one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, which is good in verse 4 The one who prophesies edifies the church why because it's for everyone

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So it's it's good to edify yourself and from there you can take that and edify other people but the gift of prophecy

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Its purpose is to edify other people through exhorting them edifying them and encouraging them

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So he says I wish all of you spoke in tongues Why because it's a great gift from God something that the

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Holy Spirit has given to us and we should we should be thankful for it but the one who prophesies

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Is greater Why? Because he speaks a word that's known unless the tongue is translated the tongues translated it seems that it puts it on par with with prophecy because there's an element where You're aiding you're helping you're encouraging your fellow brothers and sisters are revealing those mysteries

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Yeah, yeah, the mysteries that your spirit speaks. I mean, who knows maybe you're edified in it

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It'll be even encouraging to you if somebody can tell you what you were saying. Yeah. Yeah I don't know how how it worked in every situation

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I know at Pentecost they were speaking and People who were interpreting were people who actually spoke those languages

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Maybe That's not always the case Maybe it's someone who's given a supernatural gift of interpretation or maybe somebody does know the language and you you just don't

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Whichever way it is it's it's encouraging if if Everyone can know what you're saying, right?

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So you don't You're kind of going at this from an angle And I've heard a different angle so you don't see how that Paul here is

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Coming Being his sarcastic self like he is in other places where when he's saying you only edify yourself

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You don't think that he's being a little sarcastic there it Kind of putting this in a negative light

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Because in verse 6 if I come to you speaking in tongues, he says what will it profit you?

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because we're looking at this as The the gifts are for the edification of the church or the body

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Not the individual so much and that's why I think I've heard people come at it from that angle that he's being sarcastic

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Kind of discouraging it unless there's an interpreter. I Don't but I Think he gets there pretty quick.

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I think he's I think he's he's treating them like children. So he's good He's laying out something very basic.

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Here's what I want you to know. I know I taught you about love I'm gonna tell you again about how I think about these things and now he gets a little sarcastic and Even in the next verse when he starts breaking it down because he compares speaking in tongues to random noises that happen in nature

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So, yeah, I think he gets there pretty quick and I'm sure there's a tinge of sarcasm to it

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But I think his is purpose in those first few verses is just to teach and to get them on board with him

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And then once he once he he's told them he gives them a ridiculous example in order to drive the point home so I don't think he's necessarily being sarcastic here, but he gets there like What is that a quarter inch down the page?

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It's not far So I want to give a little bit of time at the end before we hit the 30 -minute mark because I Want to ask you a question and I'll give you a heads up I want to ask you a question about application

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I know what my response would be as far as application but from your angle and how you see based on the end of 13 and And What Paul is saying there what they look like for today application for us, so we'll get there in just a second

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Are you ready to move on to the next section? Okay, seven through nine yet Even lifeless things either flute or harp in producing a sound if they do not produce a distinction in the tones

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How will it be known what is played on the flute or in the harp? or if the bugle produces an

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Indistinct sound who will prepare himself for battle? So also you unless you utter by the tongue speech that is clear

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How will it be known what is spoken for you will be speaking into the air? Go ahead and reverse ten to There are perhaps a great many kinds of languages in the world and no kind is without meaning

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Yeah, that word languages there can also be translated as sounds Okay, so it kind of pulls the idea verse 11 then if I do not know the meaning of the sound

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I Will be to the it'll I'll be to the one who speaks a barbarian and the one who speaks to me will be a barbarian

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So also you since you are zealous for spiritual you seek to abound for the edification of the church

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So he's talking about He's going to him and saying hey if If there's a trumpet and the trumpet blasts certain trumpet blasts may mean different things and we know this even from from people who've been to a summer camp or even folks at least older days in the military you know taps is

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What's that? That's going to bed. I think or Reveley is getting up in the morning

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Sounds right, I believe so there's different blasts of the trumpet that mean different things

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This one means you're probably late for breakfast This one means you better sit down and be quiet or your commander is gonna come by whack you in the head for being loud

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After curfew. Yeah You've got this one. It means hey There's an enemy over the over the hill.

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Let's go get him. It's time for battle But if you get a four -year -old on a trumpet and he just starts tooting away

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Making all sorts of noise like who's gonna know what's happening what you don't let the four -year -old

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Tune away at the horn. It doesn't help everyone so this is where I think he gets a little sarcastic because he's trying to say you who think that tongues is

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No, the end all and be all and you're great because you you do this that or the other thing You're you're using this gift in such a way.

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That is Just uh, you know, it's like it's noisy Like he said in chapter 13, it's like it's like a gong like clanging cymbals

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You're like somebody who uses a trumpet to blast out whatever tune you want It doesn't help anyone if they don't understand what the tune is.

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What what the purpose of what you're saying is so Because you need to have a purpose to the tone

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Seek the spiritual gifts That will edify the church. So Speaking in tongues isn't a bad thing is what he's getting at but he's saying what you need to do is recognize what what the purpose of it is and That it's only going to edify someone if an interpreter is there to interpret that way people know what you're saying

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Otherwise, it's an edification for yourself. And as we'll look a little bit later. It's also a sign to people who don't believe right, so but in an

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Then that just makes the point that these passages are not just key passages

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Let's say you are a continuationist that they're not just key passages for you to prove your point that you're a continuationist

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Here there was in the Corinthian church. There was stuff going wrong Yeah, they were doing things wrong and Paul is taking time to say hey, yes, they exist

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But they need to be done correctly Right And so if you are a continuationist and and you think that you need to be practicing these things in your in your church amongst your congregation then

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This needs to be more than just a proof text Right and to tip my hand to your application question in verse 26

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Paul Gives an application for this passage and it is orderly worship in the church

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Gotcha, so I'll explain that a little bit more in about six and a half minutes Sounds good.

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All right well We read 10.

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Let me read 10 through 12 There are perhaps a great many kinds of languages in the world and no kind is without meaning if then

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I do not know the meaning of the language I Will be to the one who speaks as a barbarian and the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me

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So also you since you are zealous of spiritual gifts Seek to abound for the edification of the church.

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I mean, that's that's crucial there. I Yeah, I see your zealousness. I see your passion, but you've got to reign it in because they have a purpose.

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Yep yep, if if I were to stand up in the church and Let's say

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I did it orderly and I stood up in the church and I spoke in some unknown language

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People would say That I mean imagine their Presbyterian Church anyway You imagined how frozen would the frozen chosen be at that moment,

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I mean they'd be like, all right cool You spoke Portuguese.

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I Don't know what that means it'd be like a Foreigner like you'd be sitting in a foreign foreign language church.

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Like I'm really happy that people are praising God right now. I Don't know what they're saying and I bet you that I mean, that's probably what he's getting at No, imagine going to a church where you don't speak the language.

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No, you end up in the Spanish Church for For a day or you end up with with the Saints in China, and there's no translator there

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I mean, I would be thrilled to hear people singing know that the the Psalms and and and and hearing the preaching of the word in whatever language but I Don't I don't know what you're saying, so that's kind of that's kind of the point though.

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Yeah But really you don't know if they are or not and that's kind of the point, right?

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And that's why I said it'd be like a barbarian to me and I'd be like a barbarian to them like we knew it

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We'd be crossing crossing wires and not understanding each other and we'd be be happy for God to be glorified

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But it's not really edifying anyone. Yeah, exactly um I'm Maybe you can't point it out

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I'm hoping you can since you brought it up because I've been curious I'm not familiar with the with the

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Greek here and I heard John MacArthur You you were spoken and you spoke to us about a word here that Paul talks about making sounds that come from nature and I think

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I think it's the same Greek that John MacArthur called it an onomatopoeia

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I was just curious where that was in that section It's not it's

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It comes up when you look down further into verse 21 okay when you're verse 21 he quotes

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Isaiah 28 Okay, and then Isaiah 28 He he references that that thing where says no line upon line precept upon precept

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I Say here a little there a little That in Hebrew is

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It's it's basically children babble Because could just because of the way that the sentence structure is in the

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Hebrew. It's it's Africa I can I can look it up real quick. Oh, we don't get there.

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Yeah, but it's it's And that that's where he's talking about.

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Okay, because what he's trying to do it and it that's the purpose of Yeah, we'll better bring it out later.

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So Open up a can of worms. Otherwise, so let's talk about that application real quick before we end this this program.

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Um, so Of course, like I said, my application might be a little bit different because of how

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I see the end of chapter 13 and and I see a Person with these gifts who can manifest them to others.

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That's what I'm seeing that has ceased and so this This church policy on how to do things decently in order are

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Not necessarily needed anymore because they have ceased But you you take a little bit different angle that They do still or or can still happen just not as normative as in the first century church so Based on For you and and if your interpretation is taking us in the right direction and it does happen

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You know take us to that verse you were talking about doing it decently in order What what would that look like to you or for us if these things?

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you know were to happen and Somebody had the gift See, here's the thing up until this point

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I've said that I didn't see where Where he gave a timeline for the cessation of these gifts, but in between where we're at now and The application of Paul gives about orderly worship.

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I think Paul lays out a pretty good case That the things that are happening between this and and something that Peter says

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That that by the time we come to today, it's it's almost not gonna happen

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So I think what he's doing is he's giving a specific application to a specific church a church where this is real this really is a possibility that someone may come in have the gift of tongues and Stand up in order to exercise that gift and what

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I think he says is that they should exercise it with an interpreter present because the purpose for them to to Exercise the gift would then be to edify and build up the church around them, right?

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So Really the the application for us today would be to take everything decently in an order

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Which the way that we do that now is we we structure our services to where?

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The the the elements of worship that God has prescribed for us

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This goes back to regulative principle of worship that the elements of worship that God has prescribed for us

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Those are the things that we plan out for the service And some people some people don't like that.

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They say well you're you're stifling the Holy Spirit. You're not giving him a chance to work and I think that's

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It's not necessarily true and here's why The Holy Spirit works just as much beforehand in the preparation of of The service as he does during the service itself

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I'll put it this way. I've prepared things To say during during a

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Presbyterian liturgy gotten to certain points of it and Thoughts ideas, they're they're directly relevant to the text connections that I hadn't made before will come up and pop out of my mouth and People have been extremely blessed by it.

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I believe that was the Holy Spirit working within Decent in orderly worship that you know,

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I don't know we do it so decently in an order. We'll put it in the bulletin But we've got a whole

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Fact I may have one somewhere in here. We've got a whole liturgy set up People want to look down on that style

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But I say Dan If the Holy Spirit is the one that does the work And we want to say that otherwise, we're taking some credit

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So we want to say the Holy Spirit does the work number two. He uses the word sure

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So why not back off? I Don't know people are attacking us

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Maliciously, I mean some people I'm sure are I don't think I did well I didn't mean that it I didn't mean that as strongly as as I said it, but we say it we say

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Let me reset. So if it's the Holy Spirit does the work and and he uses the word.

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Yep Not not the people who are making their critiques but those of us who are

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Preparing the order of worship. Why don't we prepare it in such a way to where we are stepping out of the way and Allowing room for the

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Holy Spirit to do the work where he gets the credit. That's what I meant, right? Yeah, I Think that's a that's great.

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I mean, I'm not sure I I Don't see anything wrong with creativity.

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He gave us a mind. He gave us creativity. He's creative and So, you know, there's there's an element to this where I think creativity is okay but To where we want to become so creative that we we hijack the service and we make it a production

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Either small or large Right, and that's what people think a movement of the

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Holy Spirit is to where we we drum up false emotions false spiritual emotions because of the music because of the

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The great orator we had before us Because of the repetition in the songs whatever it may be we

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We provoke I mean whether you want to admit it or not, we provoke some of that emotion And people claim that is the work of the

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Holy Spirit when it's it's not it's just us Manipulating our emotions. Yeah, that's one of the reasons why my denomination only sings the

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Psalms and we don't use instruments in worship Because we will and one of the one of the reasons

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I Try to cut it off at 30 minutes and here we are at 31 and you're bringing this up but we believe that one of the one of the one of the ways in which we worship in spirit and in truth is that we worship by the power of the

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Holy Spirit and in the truth of the scriptures and we believe that the

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Holy Spirit is should be and that the Holy Spirit in the scriptures are What should be drumming up emotion in us, right?

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It shouldn't be music repetition Which we can get into sometime later about why we don't use instruments and why we think the music does but I mean, we know that music brings

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It causes an emotional response in people, I mean to this day I can't hear

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Free bird jump into the the guitar solo without getting goosebumps. I mean like it's just I don't know just oh

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Just right right there. I just feel it That's not a move of the spirit. That's a that's a move of the guitar player, right?

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so Which which is a gift of God, I mean Exactly he designed and created all those things and he he called us to subdue the earth to to form it make it create it

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So, you know, we're doing what he wants us to do though We we veered off track and have made it to glorify ourselves and not him but still the the fact of Taking creation and making something out of it.

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It's it was what he designed us for and And we do it. However, when it comes to you know, our spiritual services

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I believe personally those who

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Those who steer towards a type of service like you're talking about that is more simplified

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Shows a greater trust a

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More exalt you exalt more The power of the

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Holy Spirit by trusting that he's going to work without the many manipulative tools.

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I Want to say yes, but I also don't want to sound all braggadocious You know what? I mean? We we we try to strip away everything that Could create false emotion not

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I'm not gonna say maybe maybe we've gone too far Maybe we've not but the reason why we do everything that we do is

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Because we want God to be honored and glorified We want the Spirit to work among us and we know that God has ordained certain

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Means of grace by which his grace comes to us people the preaching of the word the singing of of his word

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Prayer the Lord's Supper baptism, so we just try to stick to those things and do so in a decently decently and in order and if we're

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I Don't know if we're if we're over cautious and people want to call us fuddy -duddy Go ahead.

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I'll be overly cautious because while creativity is great and a dab and a bye who did not survive creativity

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I'm just gonna take the the cautious way out on this one, I guess Let me let me ask you this last question and it has to do with worship.

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So Would you say that it has less to do with God? the the reason for the style has less to do with God and more to do with man and Let me explain that just a hair.

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Yeah, let's say in what context right so We've already stated That that God created all this and and you know, we're we're putting these things together not just music

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But we're you know medicine you know Buildings homes, you know technology music.

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We're taking his creation So doing it making it great and it's ultimately to glorify him so the doing that the instruments the music the the songs they're they're not

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In themselves evil or bad So it's not about God and his creation

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It's it's more about us and we know how easily many put to manipulate it we are

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Does that make sense? Yeah, no, I make sense. Okay, I think that that goes it goes more to the regulative principle than anything that Because God has spoken we should we should listen.

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We shouldn't go where he hasn't told us to go Shouldn't be careful Remember that our hearts are easily deceived, right?

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right and and this goes straight into the passages that tell us and speak to us about the gospel that is it's the

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God uses the foolish things in the world to confound the wise that That he uses the the word

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To bring faith Faith comes by hearing hearing the Word of God.

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And so it's it's as simple as that He doesn't use tricks or gimmicks

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He uses human beings to share the word and the Holy Spirit uses that word to bring about knowledge bring about faith

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Bring about repentance. So that knowledge of the gospel is that God created all things good

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Man ruined it by disobeying and we all inherited Adam sin and so therefore ever since Adam and Eve we all became slaves to sin and And we could do nothing else but Choose the sin.

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So it took God choosing God God's grace

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God's mercy to come down to this earth to do what we could not live a perfect sinless life and Then to down a cross to receive and take the wrath and punishment of God in our place so that he could redeem

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Us those who would believe and so he calls us then to repent of our sins and put our faith and trust in Christ and We do that because of the word and the

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Holy Spirit using the word to bring about knowledge And giving us the gift of repentance of faith So we we call on you as scripture does to look to the

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Son to bend the knee to trust him and repent of your sins and We encourage you to share that news if God has saved you then will you close us a prayer sure

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Dear Heavenly Father Thank you for today for your word for your spirit and for your gifts to us pray that we would use them rightly

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And that you would be honored and glorified in Christ. Let me pray. Amen Amen. Thank you everybody for watching again.

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We would ask that you just give us a like follow heart share Check us out on all the different platforms

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We really appreciate it because we want to partner with you as always Just to get the Word of God out there to get the gospel out to those who would listen