Why Dr. James White Hasnt Debated Dr Stephen Wolfe - Part 2A

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September 7, 2024

It DOESNT Have to Be This Way, Dr. James White (Emotional Ending) - Part 3

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00:46: We're doing part two. It's just that simple. I'll tell you what, I'm not going to allow myself to get distracted by this, but Dr.
00:56: James White responded to my Twitter videos. I posted like four two -minute
01:02: Twitter videos, and he responded to like, I don't know, maybe like 40 seconds a minute of one of them.
01:11: And man, you know, I was watching the Mets play the
01:16: White Sox the other day, and the White Sox are on a historically bad season.
01:24: They're going to unseat the Mets, who own the worst season on record, the first season that the
01:30: Mets were a team in 1962, and it hasn't been beaten since then. But the White Sox are on a tear.
01:36: They want the crown, and they're just losing like there's no tomorrow. They're just losing as if that was the point of the game.
01:45: And in the audience, a lot of people have resorted to putting paper bags on their face that have a sad face on them and say sadness on them.
01:56: And that's how I felt. I felt like putting the paper bag on my head that says sadness on the forehead when
02:04: I was listening to it. But it's okay, it's all good. Dr. James White can't stop me from loving him. It's as simple as that.
02:09: He just can't stop me, no matter what. He can say whatever he wants. He can't, he doesn't affect my mood.
02:15: I could still love him right back, as simple as that. But I'm not going to get distracted by that. That video has all of its own stuff in it.
02:25: I may reference it throughout this response, but we're just going to power through and continue on with this one.
02:33: And yeah, and then there you go. So that's what we're going to do. That is what we're going to do. We're going to just, you know what?
02:39: Let's just do it. The essence of sacralism. Crying out loud. The essence of, hold on.
02:45: I'm missing something. Hold on, hold on. Let's just double check here to make sure I'm not fast forwarded here.
02:52: Hold on. Let's try it. But you're doing it with a cross on your shield.
02:59: Yes. Yes. Okay. Yeah. This is the very essence of sacralism. Crying out loud.
03:05: The essence. I think that's why some of these Christian Nationalist guys that are big Stephen Wolfe fans don't have any problem with this, because he's a full -blown sacralist.
03:15: A full -blown sacralist. I mean, listen, I'm being straight up with you.
03:21: I really don't know what sacralism is, and I personally don't care. But I'll tell you this, that I know it's a scare term.
03:29: It's definitely one of those terms that, I'm not saying it started this way, but it's become this thing that you say when you want someone to be really scared of what's going to happen.
03:41: Not just a sacralist. He is a full -blown sacralist.
03:47: And so that's supposed to scare you. I don't think I'm sacralist. I tend to agree a lot more with Dr.
03:54: White on some of these things. I'm post -millennial, I'm theonomic, and all that kind of thing.
04:01: And so I don't think I'm a sacralist. Although, I don't know, maybe James White puts me in that category. He is playing a little fast and loose, in my opinion, with some of the categories and the accusations.
04:12: In fact, in the video that I referenced where I had the sadness hat on, at one point he says to me, he's upset because some people, and he says, and that includes you,
04:25: A .D., and he says that we're saying, hey, you should be encouraging the young guys to become crusaders.
04:32: You should be encouraging the new guys. And I'm sure there are some people out there that have said that.
04:38: I'm not so sure that that's what's really being said. I mean, it's possible that I missed something. I have seen some people say,
04:46: Dr. White should be more encouraging to younger men. I don't know if it was to be crusaders.
04:53: That's what James White said. That's not what I've seen. But I've done neither one.
04:58: I've never told James White that he needs to be more encouraging to young men. And he specifically called me out as if I had.
05:06: And if I have done that, if someone could point me to me doing that, I would like to take that back because I don't agree with that.
05:12: I mean, if I said that, I don't know, maybe I was, maybe I had, you know, one too many Zins that day.
05:18: But I don't believe that. So I don't think I've said that. But there's a lot of that.
05:23: And that's one of the issues, too. There's a lot of playing fast and loose with the categories here.
05:30: You know, he'll make these comments and they're directed towards a guy like Joseph Spurgeon or Eric Cahn.
05:37: But then when you dig down into it, it's really more about some of the anonymous people on Twitter.
05:43: But he applies it to Joseph Spurgeon. He applies it to Eric Cahn. He applies it to me,
05:49: I guess, now. I mean, I guess I'm one of those full blown sacralists. And usually,
05:55: Dr. White, I think, is more careful than that. But for whatever reason in this topic, he's, in my opinion, he's not being as careful as he usually is.
06:05: So, you know, I'm not one of these guys. And in another comment, he said something about, you know, the
06:10: Arnold Schwarzenegger Crusader types. And he's talking about me. But I'm not one of these guys.
06:16: I've never, I don't think I've ever shared, I know I've never created a meme of any
06:23: Crusader, much less the Arnold Schwarzenegger type. It's just not something I've ever done. And I'm not against it, if you like to do that kind of thing.
06:32: I mean, knock yourselves out. But I don't do that kind of thing. And I've never, you know, you know,
06:38: LARPed, you know, being a Crusader, I've never, never done that. I've just not, I haven't done that.
06:44: But I also don't discard those people and say that they're doing really bad things. And that in some, in some, you know, in some people's minds, that's enough that I'm with them.
06:53: You know, I'm absolutely doing the same thing, where I'm not. So some of the, some of the categories here are a little fuzzy.
07:00: But that's okay, we're gonna power through. That's, that's the kind, that's the kind of Christian nationalism that he's promoting.
07:09: The sacralist. The sacralism. And again, and again, and this is the thing, like,
07:16: I really enjoy Stephen Wolfe's material, you know, his book. I think, honestly,
07:22: I think I like his podcast. I don't know if he has a podcast, but he's done some videos and stuff.
07:28: I actually like that stuff a lot more. I appreciate so much of what Stephen Wolfe has to say.
07:35: But I don't agree with everything. And, you know, when he attacks certain positions that I have, I don't agree with, you know, some of the criticism.
07:44: Sometimes I do, which is kind of interesting. But I don't agree with everything.
07:49: But, but, but I recognize that we can still be friends, right? We still have very similar goals.
07:56: Even if they're not exactly the same, they're similar goals. And we can work together. And I don't have to counter signal every single time
08:03: I think he makes an error, or if he does something that I wouldn't do. You know, I get in trouble with this all the time.
08:09: You know, people will often throw certain tweets of Andrew Torbat. What do you think of this one? And it's like, well,
08:14: I mean, I wouldn't have said that. But yeah, I mean, is that the end of the world? I mean, it's definitely not. I mean, I still consider him a friend.
08:21: I still consider him, you know, someone that we can work with. He's still a brother in the Lord. Like, I'm still and people really hate that.
08:28: They really hate that. Well, if you do, you know, I have to just, you know, if I disagree with anything, it's time to get on it.
08:34: No, man, you got to be mature about some of these things. Some of these disagreements, you can voice them in a way that it's obvious, you know, we're still friends.
08:41: You know, we don't have to use the scare tactics about underground Nazi, you know, like all that kind of stuff.
08:47: I'm not saying Dr. White does that, although maybe he has, I have no idea. But you know, a lot of people do a lot, a lot of people do.
08:54: So let's continue. Billy me. When that book first came out, and we did a sweater vest dialogue, did to him, to myself and Doug Wilson, what was what was my concern in the very first one?
09:11: Very first one, and the second one? Sacralism. I know that's your concern,
09:18: Dr. White. And even though I do revere you and respect you, I don't agree. I'm not concerned about that at all.
09:25: And I think you're wrong about your concerns. And I think you're getting a little hysterical about your concerns regarding sacralism.
09:34: But and I, I'm joking that I don't know at all what sacralism is. I mean, I, the only reason
09:40: I know about it is because of Dr. White, I do kind of know what it is. You know, at least in Dr.
09:46: James White's opinion, I've honestly never heard anyone ever talk about sacralism besides Dr.
09:53: White and Michael O 'Fallon. So my knowledge of sacralism, you know, I'll be honest, Dr. White, it's very limited.
09:59: It's just limited to what you've said. And what O 'Fallon has said. I've never even heard the term before you.
10:06: So, so, you know, very limited knowledge, but I do know what it is. And I'm not concerned like you are.
10:12: When I look at Stephen Wolf's book, and I hear what you say sacralism is, I have zero concern.
10:20: None whatsoever. And yet, I still respect you. I still think you have interesting things to say.
10:27: I still think that you should be heard out regarding your concerns. I don't have any problem listening to you talk about how concerned about sacralism you are.
10:37: And I don't take offense to it. And I'm not, I'm not upset by it. But, but, but again,
10:42: I do wish we could recognize that despite the very mysterious boogeyman of sacralism that that might be at play here, we still can work together on many things.
10:52: I think that that would be a better way to go. But I'm not your social media coach.
10:58: I'm just a regular guy. And so we'll continue, we'll continue on. So I've been really consistent, nothing new here, but the sacralism of that time period, which continues into the
11:15: Reformation, the original Reformers were sacralists. This was,
11:21: I found this comment so interesting the first time I heard it, because it's, it's, you know, again, my knowledge of sacralism is very limited, right?
11:31: It's very limited, whatever. But, you know, according to James White's, you know, discussions of sacralism, it is quite clear that everyone is a sacralist, you know, not that long ago, you know, everybody.
11:49: And I think, you know, but let me, let me not get sidetracked. And so, you know, we can still get value from Martin Luther, the sacralist, you know, he throws the the boogeyman word out about Martin Luther, I think he does, at least in this, maybe that's a different situation, but we're about to listen to it.
12:07: But the early Reformers were sacralists. We can still, you know, revere them, you know, get value from their books, we can still do all those kinds of things.
12:17: But when we've got a modern person who you're, again, labeling a sacralist, a full -blown sacralist, all of a sudden, the concern just reaches a fever pitch, where you're giving side -eye to people who are like, oh, yeah,
12:31: I like Stephen Wolf, full -blown sacralist. It's like, again, it's like, where does the grace come from?
12:37: But I think, too, one of the reasons I think this bothers Dr. James White as much as it does, this is just my opinion,
12:43: I have never talked to him about this, but is that when Stephen Wolf says the
12:49: Reformers are on his side, he's right, and he's serious, and he's right. And so when it comes to certain issues, you know what
12:57: I mean, he's very right about this. But at the same time, Dr. James White wants to disagree because he disagrees with the
13:03: Reformers on this and stuff like that. But he recognizes that that puts him in an awkward position.
13:10: Because all of these people that for years we've been taught have, you know, been such a gift to the church and stuff like that, it is so easy for Stephen to just pull up quote after quote after quote after quote of them saying pretty much the same things that he's saying.
13:27: And it's very, it puts you in an awkward position, because you've dedicated your life to the
13:33: Reformation and all of this kind of stuff. And now you've got to knock down the very
13:39: Reformers that you taught us to revere, to lionize, to celebrate.
13:45: You've got to now pick them apart. And he's willing to do it, I'm not saying he's not willing to do it, but it is awkward.
13:52: It is a very awkward position to be in, because the Reformers would agree with Stephen Wolf.
13:59: Now maybe they were wrong, and there's nothing wrong with that. But it's awkward.
14:05: It's an awkward position for him to be in. That's why Fritz Erbe died in that cell with Martin Luther knowing he was there.
14:17: Because it was a sacral situation. And we've been taught to try to downplay that part of Luther and to at least to reckon with it honestly, but to say, well, you know, they were just men of their times and stuff like that, just kind of hand wave it.
14:34: And Stephen's saying, well, yeah, maybe there were some mistakes, but actually we should revere that stuff too.
14:40: They had good things to say about that too. That's one of the core disagreements. And so what Stephen is doing to people that have the perspective of James White, it's very dangerous, and it puts them in a very awkward position that they're not comfortable being in.
14:57: Because usually when they're debating and arguing people, it's people that are against the
15:02: Reformation. And so they're constantly defending the Reformers. Well, in this case,
15:08: Stephen's saying they were right about that stuff too, or at least some of it.
15:15: And now he's got to kind of counter that, counter signal the very Reformers that he's spent his career defending.
15:24: And that's an awkward position to be in. And it's not an enviable position to be in. Because I like the
15:30: Reformers very much. And like I said, I'm theonomic, I'm post -millennial. And so maybe even some of the things that I might disagree with Stephen on, like I would want to defend, to argue with him about.
15:43: But again, I've not dedicated my whole life to defending the Reformers. Dr. White has.
15:49: He really has. And he's been so helpful in all of that stuff. He's been effective.
15:55: He's been helpful. He's taught so much. But this kind of situation, it really does put him in an awkward position.
16:03: It really does. I don't know if I'll bring it up today. Maybe I'll bring it up in the next video. There's a challenge that goes out where Stephen wants to defend the
16:12: Reformation from the things that Dr. White disagrees with them, the sacralism and all that stuff.
16:19: He challenges Dr. James White to a debate. And I got to be honest, James White's response to it, it looks very evasive.
16:28: It looks defensive. It looks evasive. It looks like he's trying to avoid debating Stephen on this.
16:33: And I get why. I get why. Because it'll be very easy for Stephen to find many quotations from all the
16:40: Reformers that Dr. White has defended for years that say pretty much what
16:46: Stephen says. And that's going to be an awkward position for him. I don't think Dr. White wants any part of that. And not because he's scared, but because it's awkward.
16:54: It's very awkward to all of the other work that he does. That's why I think Dr. James White wants no part of it.
17:01: Because his whole career has been the other way. And now he would be forced to reckoning in an opposite way.
17:10: And I don't think he wants to do that. I think he could do it if he wanted to. I think he'd be capable.
17:16: I think it'd be very helpful to the body to see that, to be honest, and say, well, yes, Stephen is pretty much right on with what the
17:22: Reformers believed. But they were wrong, and here's why they were wrong, and stuff like that. But you see, that gives ammunition to the anti -Reformation people.
17:31: I don't think Dr. White wants to do that. That's why I think it won't ever happen. It won't ever happen. I think that's why he was evasive in those challenges.
17:39: Because essentially, what he said in his response to Stephen Wolf was that Stephen is right. Stephen is right that the
17:46: Reformers believed all of this sacral stuff. And so there's really no debate to be had, but he would have to, if he was going to debate, he would have to be going after, essentially, some of the beliefs of the
17:58: Reformers, which I think he definitely is capable of doing. I just don't think he wants to. There was an inappropriate, unbiblical, and always...
18:07: I got to pause first. Well, it just took an hour -long call. So I'm a little lost in this, but I'm just going to press play and see where we go.
18:17: Damaging. Intertwined. Hold on. Give me one moment here.
18:22: I got to get reset up. Well, I'm back, and I forgot to click record, and I just went for like 10 minutes talking about a variety of different things.
18:32: But I'm out of time for recording today, so I'm just going to leave it there. I'm going to leave it there, and I'll redo it then the next time
18:41: I get out here and fire up the video camera. But it was good stuff. Just trust me on this one.
18:46: It was good stuff, what I just said to nobody. We will continue this when we get back.