May 5, 2020 Show with Dr. Joe Morecraft on “With Liberty & Justice for All: Christian Politics Made Simple” (Part 4)

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this fifth day of May, Cinco de

Mayo 2020. And I am thrilled to have back on the program somebody that I obviously have enjoyed interviewing him on his book,

With Liberty and Justice for All, Christian Politics Made Simple, because this is part four of our discussion on that.

We've done three previous programs discussing his book, With Liberty and Justice for All.

And I'm sure that part four will add some new enlightenment for all of us, because we didn't have a chance to adequately cover everything else that's in this book, even though it's not a massive book, a very reasonably length book to read in a reasonably short period of time.

And but there's a lot of material in here that we could still delve into, and I hope we get some good new information for you today that you may not have heard before, or perhaps just to bring new life into those things that might have been laying dormant in your mind and heart in regard to this subject.

My guest, as I said, is Dr. Joe Morecraft, and he is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio, Dr. Morecraft. Chris, I've been looking forward to being with you again.

Great. Well, for the sake of our listeners, especially who did not hear you during those other three interviews we did, and in fact, we've done more than that on our old show on the

Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio show that was broadcast out of New York. But for the sake of those who haven't heard you before, tell our listeners about Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia, especially since this is a rather relatively new church plant.

Yes, sir. We planted this church a little over three years ago. It's a small church. It's a member of a very small but very evangelical and Reformed denomination called the

Reformed Presbyterian Church, Hanover Presbytery. And we have about 55 members.

They come from a lot of areas and places. But praise the Lord, our influence far exceeds our numbers.

Praise God. And for any of you who want more information about Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia, the website is very easy to remember.

HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com And God willing, we will remember to repeat that later on, especially for the sake of those who tune in late.

Well, Dr. Moorcraft, we have covered a lot of the subject matter in your book.

Why don't you, for the sake of our listeners who haven't heard you yet discuss this book, just give a brief overview again on why you wrote it to begin with.

I wrote it many, many years ago. It's been through several printings. And basically, it's an exposition of Romans 13, the first few verses of Romans 13.

You know, in Romans 12, 1, it says, I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as living sacrifices to Christ.

And then throughout the next chapters, he tells us in what areas of life we are to manifest our submission to his lordship.

And one of those in Romans 13 is politics. And politics can be very complex.

Political issues, political discussions, political candidates. And a lot of times, the average

Christian who doesn't have time to do a lot of reading in politics feels lost and steps out of the picture.

But there are three principles in Romans 13 that if you get down these three principles, you will be able to evaluate most political issues and political statements of political policies today.

And those three principles of Romans 13 are the origin of civil government, number two, the function of civil government, and number three, the powers of civil government.

And my little book of a couple hundred pages is basically, and mostly, an exposition of those three principles.

And those three principles will distinguish us from liberals and conservatives. Because we'll have to disagree with both.

We, for instance, the origin of civil government is not in the civil government, as the communists believe.

The origin of civil government is not in the people, as the libertarians say. The origin of civil government is

God himself. The powers that be are ordained of God. Now that's extremely important.

Because an institution is accountable to its origin. And if the civil government originated with the state, it would only be accountable to itself.

If it was originated with the people, it would be accountable to the people.

But it's neither. Its origin is God himself. And so the civil magistrate is accountable to its origin.

And that origin is God. It may never be neutral. It may never bow before another god.

It must submit to the supremacy of the God of scripture and obey and enforce his law.

Secondly, the function of civil government, if you notice in Romans 13, there's only one function.

And it's not health, education, or welfare. The one function of civil government is to punish evildoers for the protection of those who do good.

Or as to use the words of our text, to terrorize evildoers.

To be the avenger of God upon those who would commit crime and hurt the life and welfare of those who are seeking to obey the law.

And once the civil government gets involved in every other area of life, like an octopus, like tentacles everywhere like ours is, it has no competence in any of those areas.

It fails at all those areas. For instance, every time the government wants to make me healthier, we get sicker.

Every time it wants to benefit me, we get poorer. And so the only thing the government, civil government is competent to do is to punish lawbreakers.

And when it gets involved in everything else, it fails at that one duty.

And then thirdly, there are three powers that God has given the civil government to help them terrorize evildoers.

And those three powers in Romans 13 are, I hope I'm not talking too long, but I'm about through, are the power of the minister of God, the power of the sword, and the power of tax.

Now it's interesting that two times in that passage, the civil magistrate is called the minister of God.

Well, I'm called the minister of God and I'm not a civil magistrate. I'm a pastor in a church. So in what sense am

I, and it's the same word, so in what sense am I a minister in the church?

In the sense that I have no legislative authority, that my one and only responsibility is to administer what's written in the book, to administer the gospel of grace and mercy revealed in scripture.

I may not add to it. I may not take away from it. I have absolutely no legislative authority.

And that's the emphasis of the word minister in Romans 13 when it applies to civil magistrate.

In a sense, the civil magistrate has no legislative authority. It is to administer what's the law that's written in the book.

It's not to add to it. It's not to take away from it. It is to make sure that all of its laws and all of its policies are based upon the law of God who is the source of all civil governments.

The second power is the power of the sword. Now, what do you do with a sword? You don't butter bread with a sword.

The sword is a symbol of the legal use of deadly means when necessary to protect people from evil doers.

And God gave the civil magistrate the power of the sword to protect us. To protect us from people outside our borders.

Terrorists, invaders from other nations to protect us from people domestically within this country.

And so the power of the sword is symbolic of the power to wage war when necessary.

The only wars the Bible gives the state the authority to wage are those that are defensive.

We are not to be involved in any kind of political wars and put our boys, young men and women at risk because of some political goal.

The only wars that are justified today are those in protection of the people and the heritage and the property of the nation which that civil government represents.

And the second thing about the power of the sword is the capital punishment. That capital punishment in the

Bible is essential to public justice. And so the third power is the power to tax not just any kind of tax.

It's interesting in the Bible that all the various forms of taxation we have today are explicitly or in principle forbidden.

Because they are everything we have today. Property tax, income tax, inheritance tax all the rest, sales tax, all the rest are detrimental to the family and the power to tax implies ownership.

It implies sovereignty. That is what you tax you have sovereignty over and you have ownership of.

And the state does not own our income. The state does not own our property.

And it does not own our lives. It is to protect us from the bad guys.

In fact, it's interesting that the United States Constitution which is influenced, though it's not perfect it is the greatest constitution in the modern world for the past two or three hundred years.

It says specifically that the civil magistrate may not even own property.

The federal government may not even own property unless it's for a post office and military.

I mean, it's explicit. It says it right there in black and white. But so what kind of tax does

God give the civil government the authority to levy? It is a head tax for every male 20 years of age and over and it's the same amount not the same percentage the same amount and it's low enough that nobody complains about the what they have to pay.

And so people tell me are you telling me today Joe the federal government of the United States as it is now can survive with just a small head tax?

And my answer is no, of course it can't. I don't want it to survive as it is now. I want it to be greatly limited and greatly reduced.

So that in about five or six minutes is the gist of my book. And as I mentioned in one of our previous interviews although you have been somewhat not overly or harshly but somewhat critical of libertarianism and of course that is not a monolithic group.

There's a wide spectrum of libertarians. Some of them are very evil who believe so much in personal liberty that they forget about the liberty of unborn babies and believe women should be able to murder them.

But of course there are Christian libertarians who are pro -life. But like Ron Paul for instance.

Yes, who you campaigned for. At least you aggressively supported him publicly when he ran for president about,

I don't know, was it 12 years ago? Long time ago, seems like now. Yeah, but you still seem to have some empathy.

You seem to be in agreement with them.

That last group that I mentioned, Christian libertarians. You seem to have more in agreement than disagreement.

I happen to be, as I mentioned before, leaning that way. Although there are things that many of the most vociferous libertarians in the media believe in that I disagree with them on.

I believe that we should have strong border control, for instance. Not for people who want to leave and come and go as they please.

But for those who are trying to enter into the country. And many libertarians, if not most.

Yeah, but the one big thing that a Christian philosophy of politics would have in agreement with libertarians is limited government.

Exactly. That the constitution says that the only powers, and this reflects a biblical influence, that the only powers the civil government has are those explicitly written down in the constitution.

If it's not written down in the constitution, the federal government has no power to do it.

All the other powers are reserved for the state. So what's interesting, we haven't talked about this, but this is really fascinating.

We think about the Middle Ages as being a time of feudalism. And feudalism in our history books, all public school history books, as well as some

Christian history books, is looked upon as bad and terrible. Well, it wasn't perfect, but the word feudal comes from the same, comes from the word in Latin that means covenant.

Just like the word federal, feudal, both of those words come from a word in Latin that means covenant.

And so a feudal society is a covenantal society and where there are written rules governing everybody, saying what everybody owes to the other.

And so it was that concept of a written constitution that came out of the feudalism of the

Middle Ages and the reformation did not do away with feudalism.

It improved it and perfected it, so to speak. And it's not by accident that the federal government of the

United States is called the federal government because the word federal comes from the word covenant.

It's a covenanted institution where these men that are elected by the people covenant to do certain things.

And what's interesting is John Knox was great and he shared many of the same views, worldviews as most of the 16th century reformers, but he made some unique contributions.

In fact, the Scottish reformation was more influential in the formation of the

United States than even the English reformation because John Knox had a covenant view of politics.

He said that a just and free society has a civil magistrate in wit that's based upon these covenants.

A covenant that the civil magistrate makes with God that the civil magistrate will rule only in terms of his supremacy and his law.

Second covenant that the civil magistrates make the covenant with the people that that magistrate will protect the people and guard the people in terms of the law of God.

The third covenant is the covenant that people make with the civil magistrate. And herein hangs a tail.

And herein is the declaration of independence. And the third covenant is that the people pledge their loyalty to the civil magistrate as long as the civil magistrate keeps his covenants with God and the people.

And fourth, the covenant the people make with God that is they'll be his faithful people.

Now, if somebody reads the declaration of independence of 1776 and reads the

Mecklenburg Declaration that was made by Mecklenburg County where Charlotte is in North Carolina prior to the declaration of independence, they sound a great deal alike.

And so you ask who copied whom? But that's not the right question to ask. The reason

Mecklenburg County declared its independence and condemned the despotism of King George is because it had the highest percentage of Scotch -Irish covenants of any county in the

North America. And so these people brought with them the philosophy, the worldview, the gospel of the great

John Knox who said it is man's duty and the civil magistrate's duty and lesser magistrate's duty to overturn tyrants and to remove tyranny.

And so this government, civil government of the United States was greatly influenced by John Knox and so that if you read, and I love to read the declaration of independence to people who've never read it before and not tell them what

I'm reading because they think it's the most radical, extreme thing you could ever read.

And it's not. I think your listeners, if they've never read the declaration of independence should go back and read it two or three times slowly.

I can never get through without crying because it's not that America's declaration of independence was copied from Mecklenburg Declaration and it's not that Mecklenburg Declaration was influenced on the declaration of independence.

These were influenced and informed by the great covenants of Scotland in the 16th and 17th centuries.

You read those great covenants. You read John Knox's unique covenantal philosophy of politics.

And you will see it explains things. What was the great complaint of the colonies?

Why did they declare their independence? Because the King of England had broken his covenant and had become a tyrant.

And so they said, well, it's time for us to leave. So the more we understand our history and the history of the church, the more we'll understand that history is on our side.

The liberals, the progressives, the modernists, the communists, all of those people try to, they revise history.

They make the bad guys look good and the good guys look bad. And so Christians who are ignorant of history are intimidated.

They don't know what to do. But I am here to assure you that history is on our side.

And when you stand against tyranny and stand for freedom and stand for the covenantal nature of civil magistrate, you're standing on the side of history.

You know, every state has a state motto. And my favorite state motto is the state of Virginia.

The flag of Virginia has this beautiful woman with a sword stepping on the head of a tyrant.

And the Latin words on the Virginia flag are sic semper tyrannis, which translated to English being death to all tyrants.

I wish Americans still had that attitude. And unfortunately, that slogan is probably most well known for John Wilkes Booth uttering it.

That is true, unfortunately. Now, a lot of what you said isn't the covenant aspect that the

Scottish covenanters and John Knox before them believed in so deeply.

Isn't that something that is a key point of teaching even in the modern day covenant or Presbyterians, also known as the

Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America and also the Reformed Presbyterian Church that's in Europe?

Yes, there is a church, a denomination in America called the

Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America Covenanter. And it has its roots back in those days.

Unfortunately, it's not as strong as it has been. But I think the 16th century, and particularly up through the middle 17th century to about 1688 are the most important years in the formation of the

American mind in the beginning of this republic. And that if we don't understand what the covenanters were, why they died, what they fought for, what they believed, we're really not going to be able to answer or understand why things are going on the way they are today.

The covenanters were a group of people that covenanted in Scotland from John Knox on up through the middle 1600s that made national covenants with God that they were going to stand for the

Reformed faith, for evangelical historic Christianity, whatever the cost. They weren't a bunch of revolutionaries, but they were not the king of England, Charles I.

There was a great civil war. Charles I was a tyrant dictator. He saw himself as the head of church and head of state, and he was not only above the law, his will was the law.

And the parliament at that time was Puritan. That is, they were men largely who were led out of the darkness of medieval church into the light of a far more biblical

Christianity, a Reformed Christianity, the Protestant Reformation. And the

Puritan parliament was standing for freedom and for a pure nation and a pure church and a pure state governed by the word of God.

And Charles I was standing for tyranny and for the exertion of his sovereign will over all of English life.

Then he raised an army of Roman Catholic Irishmen and mercenaries and various other people and fought that army against his own people.

Parliament needed military assistance. So parliament in the middle 1600s appealed to Scotland, which had been a

Reformed Christian country, though not perfectly, since the days of John Knox.

And the Scottish Calvinist, the Scottish Reformer said, we will give you military strength, talking to the

Puritan parliament, we'll assist you militarily against the tyrant, Charles I, if you promise to defend the

Reformed faith and the Reformed church in Scotland and work toward the reprobation of the church and its doctrine and worship and practice and discipline and worship without compromise.

And so that's called the Solemn League and Covenant between a

Puritan parliament and the Scottish nation, church and state.

So it's that influence of, praise the Lord, Scotland was never perfect, but it's that influence and a covenanter is somebody that signed these covenants.

There were some earlier covenants too and some of them signed the covenants in their own blood and after their name, but till death.

And the English throne was so hostile toward these people because they not only were against the king's exertion of his will in the church, they were poor representative government.

Under the influence of Samuel Rutherford, they believed that people in England and Scotland ought to be able to elect their kings.

And of course, the kings of England didn't take kindly to that. So they would persecute these

Scottish covenants and for a while, for years, it was a capital crime to attend the

Presbyterian church because the Presbyterians, particularly in Scotland, did not recognize the king at the head of the church.

And during one period called the Killing Times, there were some 20 ,000 men, women and children that were brutally butchered by the servants of the king of England because they would not recognize his lordship and his kingship and sovereignty over the church.

Little children would not bow before the sovereignty of the king over the church.

And it was those covenanters and their covenants and their hatred of tyranny and their love for freedom, a representative government and a

Christian worldview and a Christian social order that is the greatest influence, was the greatest influence upon the formation of the

American mind in 1776. In fact, there were three best sellers in 1776 in the

North American English colonies. One was Thomas Paine, who was an atheist.

Everybody thinks he was the big guy and the big influence, which he wasn't. The other two were written by European reformers.

One was written by Samuel Rutherford, a Scottish reformer, and it was a bestseller called

Lex Rex, which means the law is king. Not the king is law, but the law is king.

That was a bestseller in 1776. It wasn't looked upon as extreme or radical. It represented the consensus of opinion.

And the other was a great book called the Vindication of Liberty Against Tyrants, Vindicat contra

Tyrannis. And it was written by a French Calvinist and it was just as strong as the one by Samuel Rutherford.

And they were best sellers in the colonies. So our history is not what we're taught in public schools, of course, but even in some

Christian schools. I can't figure out why, in some homeschools. I cannot figure out why some

Christian schools and homeschools, as much as I believe in them, and as much as I'm against public schools,

I cannot believe and understand why some Christian schools and homeschools use secular history books and secular other kind of books in the education of these coveted children.

Yeah, and a lot of them are just accredited by the same secular humanist. That's exactly correct.

Yes, sir. We have to go to our first break right now. If anybody would like to join us with a question for Dr.

Joe Moorcraft with liberty and justice for all, Christian politics made simple.

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We are now back with Joe Moorcraft. He is the pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia, also an author.

And why don't you also, again, tell our listeners about this multi -volume set of commentaries on the

Westminster Catechism. Well, in the late 20th century and the early 21st century,

I preached a series of about 400 sermons to my church on the Westminster Larger Catechism.

And I had all these notes, and so because it's such an important document, I had some friends finance the publishing of it.

And so now it is in eight volumes, beautiful volumes, hardback volumes, and you can purchase them from westminstercommentary .com.

Now, why the Westminster Larger Catechism? Well, a while ago, we talked about this civil war in England between Charles I and Parliament.

And the churches, the Protestant churches in England and Scotland realized that in a civil war, if you're going to solve it, you don't start with politics.

You have to start with spirituality and with truth. And so the Parliament of England called a group of about 120 preachers together at the

Westminster Assembly, Westminster Cathedral, the big church there in London, and said, we want you to write some documents that would be biblical

Christianity in their purest human expression so that we could unite England and get over this civil war.

Once the nation is united in truth, it will be united in politics and everything else.

So these men published several documents, and it's in the 1640s.

One was the Westminster Confession of Faith, which is about 33 short chapters of paragraph one to six or eight paragraphs that spell out the basic doctrines of the

Christian church from eternity past to eternity to come. And then they wanted to write a document to educate children.

So they wrote the Shorter Catechism, Westminster Shorter Catechism.

A catechism is a document that teaches children the Bible by question and answers.

The parent asks the child a question, and then the child has an answer there that he's to memorize and to give back to the parent.

And the parent presumably is going to teach the child what that answer means. Well, they also wanted a document that would not be simply a statement of faith and would not simply be for children, but a document that would carry

Christians on into maturity and a deeper and deeper and broader and broader understanding of Christian faith and Christian ethics all their lives.

So they wrote a document called the Westminster Larger Catechism, which is several, a couple hundred almost, questions and answers dealing with every doctrine you could imagine.

And not just with doctrine, but my favorite part is the questions and answers on the

Ten Commandments are one of my favorite parts. All the questions and answers on the Ten Commandments.

People are often asking me, what's a good book on Christian ethics, a good book on biblical morality.

And I say the best thing I know are the questions and answers of the

Westminster Larger Catechism explaining what's required and what's forbidden in the Ten Commandments.

And what is great about them is not only their well -honed answers, but every phrase has a biblical footnote so that there are,

I don't know, scores of biblical passages that are used to support their ethical principles and ethical statements.

In fact, I did what I don't think anybody's ever done before. I went through all of the various,

I expounded all the various biblical footnotes underlying the questions and answers of the

Larger Catechism. And these men, these documents were not, they were not ivory tower scholars.

These documents were not written for academia. These men had pastor's hearts.

And as you read the confession of particularly the Larger Catechism, you see these men are pastors and they're trying to lead and educate and disciple and mature the people in their various congregations.

So I can't recommend the Larger Catechism enough.

In fact, these men were so well -versed in Scripture, so marinated in Scripture that they quoted obscure biblical texts

I don't think anybody's ever quoted since. I mean, they knew the Bible from one end to the other.

And in my commentary on the Larger Catechism, just like the Larger Catechism, I tell people the most important parts of the biblical footnotes, not my comments, not the comments of the

Westminster Fathers, but the biblical support for the various things. So the publisher,

Fort Paul's publisher, the man that did it, young man that did it, is masterful when it comes to producing books.

And these are the best made and most beautiful, it's not a sale pitch,

I'm just telling you what I really think, set of books that I have ever seen. There's eight volumes.

The last volume is basically of indices, which makes the whole set user -friendly.

It gives us an index of Bible verses quoted, of which there are many, an index of people quoted, an index of Westminster Confession and Catechisms, an index of history.

And so this is the second edition, the first edition came out 10 or 11 years ago, and it was a very pretty set of books, but they weren't that user -friendly.

And this is very user -friendly. I know a young man right now, he's a carpenter, dairyman, he reads parts of this every night to his children.

And so you go to westminstercommentary .com. Well, I know already that that series is going to spawn many interviews with you on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, even on the

Decalogue alone. Yeah, I hope so. The Ten Commandments, what is prohibited by the

Ten Commandments, and what is not prohibited. But it should be a fascinating series of interviews that await us,

God willing. Yes, sir, and the series, the questions and answers on prayer, and explanation of the

Lord's Prayer, they're masterful in their answers.

And I've spent, I don't know how many, a hundred pages just on explaining the various phrases,

Bible verses, undergirding the phrases in the Lord's Prayer. Now, of course, there'll be passages that Reformed Baptists will not agree with, but most of it they will.

I mean, you know, right out of the Confession of Faith, et cetera, were written in 1643 and afterwards.

Then in 16, what was it, 1689, you have the Second London Baptist Confession, and I like to tell people it's one of the greatest pieces of plagiarism in the world.

But, God, if you compare the Second London Baptist Confession with the

Westminster Confession, I mean, they're identical, aren't they? Yes, but obviously you meant that tongue -in -cheek, because it was intentional.

It wasn't like a secretive... I know. In fact,

I think that one of the reasons that the framers of 1689 did copy it nearly word -for -word, in addition to borrowing from the

Savoy Declaration, the Congregationalist Confession, I think one of the reasons is that they wanted to publicly identify as brethren with the

Presbyterians, albeit distinctions. I think that they wanted to show the camaraderie and wanted to show that they were not a cult of some kind.

And what people don't realize is that there was great unanimity among the

Protestants in England and Scotland and Switzerland and Germany and France concerning theology and ethics.

And people don't realize just the depth and the breadth of the agreement between those people, all those people.

And yeah, like you say, the Savoy Declaration, which represented the disciples of John Owen, and you have the

Baptist Declaration, and then the Westminster Confession. But then you have other confessions and catechisms in Europe.

One of my favorite catechisms is called the Heidelberg Catechism. Oh yeah, one of the three forms of unity.

Yes, sir, or the Belgic Confession, or Helvetic Confession, that they were great, or the

Canons of Dort. That what's interesting is in history, in church history, every great period of revival produced a creed, a confession, or catechisms.

And you have the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed from the early church, the Athanasian Creed. You've got all these great creeds and catechisms and confessions of the

Reformation. And so all of these great documents, like I said, represent the effects of revival.

For instance, the Reformation was the greatest spirit -produced revival in the history of the church since New Testament times.

Amen. And they are not academic. Now, their language is

Elizabethan, largely. But if you put your mind to it, you can understand it.

Like I tell people, these people in the 16th and 17th century, the

Reformers, were more literate than we are. And we have to, because we've been educated by public schools, largely.

And so you have to think, but that's okay. Nothing wrong with thinking. In fact, we have to go to our midway break right now, and we'll pick up where you left off.

And we'll also return to the subject of With Liberty and Justice for All, Christian Politics Made Simple.

But before we go to that break, mention one more time the website for the commentaries on the larger catechism.

Let me mention two real quick. One is westminstercommentary .com, and another one is called comprehensivechristianity .com.

Great. And hopefully we'll remember to repeat those later on as well. And this is the longer break, folks.

Please be patient with us. It's the break where Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM, in Lake City, Florida, has to air their own public service announcements in order to be compliant with FCC regulations to localize this program to Lake City, Florida.

And while they do that, we are going to be airing our own globally heard commercials.

And as always, please try to write down as much of the information as you can on that has been provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully respond to them and patronize them.

And even if you can't purchase their products or their services or if you can't visit the churches that advertise, please write to them through the contact information they provide to thank them for sponsoring this program.

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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I'm Dr. Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

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That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here. I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

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That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Hi, this is

John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the

Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised

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I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

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That's ptlbiblerebinding .com As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey pastored by Alan Dunn.

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshipped and how he shall be represented in the world.

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

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Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

The coronavirus pandemic has rapidly changed our way of life, bringing so many uncertainties.

When will it end? Why do disasters like this happen? How do we deal with anxiety, fear, and the like?

Well, join us each Friday on the program Iron Sharpens Iron with your host Chris Arnzen and Pastor Joe Jacobs as they explore

God's Word for answers to this and other of life's related issues. Tune in at FirstLoveRadio .org

That's FirstLoveRadio .org Each Friday at 1 p .m.

Pacific, 4 p .m. Eastern That's Iron Sharpens Iron on FirstLoveRadio .org

Fridays, 1 p .m. Pacific, 4 p .m. Eastern to hear what the Bible has to say about pandemics and how we should respond.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially.

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org That's gracechurchatfranklin .org

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.

Amen. Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work in service to you, the church, and to Christ.

That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at cvbbs .com. That's cvbbs .com.

Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And don't forget, you can call cvbbs .com

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They only man that phone line Monday through Friday between 10 a .m. and 4 .30

p .m. Eastern Time, and there's no voicemail. So make sure you call during those days and hours.

Just have a few important announcements to make before we return to our discussion with my guest and dear friend,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft, on his book, With Liberty and Justice for All, Christian Politics Made Simple.

We have some guests that we want you to know about that are coming up. In fact, it'll be interesting to see how these two interviews may be a blessing to listen to back -to -back in a recorded fashion later on, because they're on similar topics.

We have tomorrow on our program Dr. David C. Innes, who is a professor at the

King's College in New York City, and he's going to be discussing his book, Christ and the

Kingdoms of Men, Foundations of Political Life. That's tomorrow on this program.

And then on Thursday, the man who was, at one time, David Innes' pastor, who has gone on to plant a different church.

I'm speaking of Pastor Bill Shishko, who I know is also a mutual, very close friend of my guest today,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. Bill Shishko, who is now pastoring the

Haven, an Orthodox Presbyterian congregation in Deer Park, Long Island. He'll be on the program, and we have yet to determine his topic.

And then on Friday, May 8th, Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be returning to the program.

He is interrupting our weekly coronavirus update with Joe Jakowitz this one time because we had to accommodate

Dr. White's schedule, and he will be on. Mark your calendars for that. And we have not yet determined a topic for Dr.

White either at this point, but I'm sure we will very soon. And also, let me throw in that on Monday, we have

Dr. Kurt Daniel returning to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And I believe this is going to be part three of a series of interviews we have conducted with him on his masterpiece,

The History and Theology of Calvinism, a 900 -page hardback. And I'll give you a little heads up here.

If you're one of the first six listeners who write in a quality question good enough to get on the air, you'll receive a free copy of this very valuable book,

The History and Theology of Calvinism by Dr. Kurt Daniel. And that's this Monday, the 11th of May.

And also, folks, just to remind you, we here at Iron Sharpens Iron Radio are in urgent need of your financial support.

The coronavirus hysteria has caused us to temporarily, at least, lose two of our major financial supporters because their own businesses have been so negatively affected by the coronavirus hysteria.

So if you could help us make up for that loss, we would greatly appreciate it. And I will not do it by name yet because I haven't received her permission.

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But if you are blessed financially above and beyond your ability to obey those commands of supporting your church and family, then please feel free to help us as much as you can, as frequently as you can, as generously as you can with donations, especially since some of you who have not lost your income and your livelihood, some of you have a lot of money saved up because you haven't been going to sporting events, you haven't been enjoying fine dining, you haven't been going to concerts and the movies and theatrical performances and Bible conferences, and so you have some of that money still at hand.

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And remember, folks, if you are not a member of a local Bible -believing church and you need help finding one, and if you're not a member of a local church, you should believe you need help finding one or you would have found one already because this is an important matter.

And I can help you, God willing, find a church no matter where you live on the planet Earth. I have helped people all over the world find churches that are biblically faithful near them because I have lists of very sound

Orthodox churches everywhere on the globe, and hopefully, God willing, there's one near you that you don't know about.

So send me an email to ChrisArnzen at gmail .com and put I Need a Church in the subject line. I've also helped people find churches where they're vacationing, and sometimes they have friends and loved ones who are the ones that don't have a church home near them that they're aware of, and I've helped those folks as well.

So that's ChrisArnzen at gmail .com and put I Need a Church in the subject line. That is also the email address where you can send in a question to our guest today,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft, and our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com And let's see here.

We have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, and he asks,

Dr. Moorcraft, what do you say to the average person in America who has no idea that the only responsibilities and duties of the government of the

United States are to protect the lives of the innocent and to punish evildoers?

There are many people who would immediately respond, what about infrastructure? What about roads and bridges?

What about the education of our children, especially for those who cannot afford parochial schools?

And the list could go on. That is a very, very important question. I'm glad our friend asked it because I'm asked that question, and whether I'm asked that question or not,

I spend a great deal of my preaching and teaching trying to educate Christians, trying to Christianize Christians as to how they're to think about every issue of life because the

Bible is divinely authoritative in everything about which it speaks, and it speaks about everything.

Now, there was a time in American history when that wasn't an issue. Before Franklin Delano Roosevelt, most

Americans realized that the purpose of the government was protection. But after Franklin Delano Roosevelt, most

Americans think the purpose of civil government is provision to provide for me, to take care of me when

I'm sick, when I don't have a job, when I need educated, when I'm retired, when I need a lawyer.

And so Americans, we have this movement today. We don't want

America to be socialistic. It has been socialistic for generations.

And that just shows you how far we have fallen. That America, when you tell them the purpose of civil government, the function is protect the good guys from bad guys.

And they ask the questions that our friend said they ask. It is because the average American thinks, without knowing it, nobody is as competent as the civil government to run the post office, to provide roads, to provide welfare.

Whereas in all those instances, the government has no competence. Why do you think there was the rise of Federal Express and UPS and all these things?

Because of the terrible failure of the post office to get mail to someplace on time.

Roads, well, you know, one of the biggest and most beautiful bridges in the world is either in Savannah or Charleston one,

I can't remember. It's privately owned. There's things we can do with toll roads so that the government doesn't need, the civil government doesn't even have to take care of infrastructures.

It's responsibility, in the Constitution, is not any of these things, except post office, unfortunately.

It is for the general welfare, that is not to provide, but to make sure

Americans are safe. That is the issue. And as we've seen people quote recently,

Constitution says, the purpose of the Constitution is not to limit the citizens, it's to limit the civil government.

So as long as we, and I have another book, which shows how to privatize, that is how to put back in the private sector everything the federal government is doing now that it ought not to be doing.

Public education, your children can be far better educated at home and in truly

Christian schools. Welfare used to be the domain of the family and the church, and now we can still do it better because for every one dollar of welfare that you send to the federal government, some 85 % of it goes to bureaucrats.

And so that the government, the civil government, is not competent to do anything except what

God says it is to do. And when it gets involved in all these various areas, it's not going to do that one thing of protecting us from the bad guy.

The church back in the 1700s, the church and voluntary associations would provide for all of the needs of people who were in any form of poverty.

Sailing, fishing in the open seas was a dangerous thing in the 1700s.

And so it was not unusual for ships to be lost and men to be lost and leave their wives, widows, their children orphans.

And so what would happen? The civil government would not take care of these widows and orphans, but voluntary associations to provide and fund orphans and widows rose up and they provided for their needs.

In Timothy, in first and second Timothy, it says that those that are truly widows and truly because their husbands have died or have abandoned them, the church has the responsibility along with the family.

To take care of these people. So the church and the family, it was the church that built orphanages.

It was the church that built hospitals. We still have some places today in the

South and in the North where you have Presbyterian Hospital. That's the name of it.

Because these Presbyterians and I'm sure there's Baptist hospitals too, but where these people saw their responsibility to provide a diaconal ministry to the community.

Diagonals were like the word deacon. And once we curtailed all those ministries and once we saw, we truncated the mission of the church simply to saving souls from hell before Jesus came and turned the rest of culture and surrounded the rest of culture, the anti -Christian stepped in and claimed that they were providing for the various needs of a society, which in fact they weren't.

But the society was duped into believing it. So that is a very, very big question.

There's a good book to read. I recommend it. I hope it's still in print. I know it's coming back in print and it's called

Productive Christians in an Age of... Oh, Productive Christians in an

Age of Guilt Manipulators. Oh yeah, I've heard of that. It's been written by my friend David Chilton, who's now home with the

Lord. And that book is an answer to another book that was written called

Rich Christians in a Poor World. And of course, that title makes you feel guilty that that's the purpose of the title.

It is basically Marxist and socialist. And it was written to convince

Christians that they ought to not have more wealth than the average person in their city or state or society.

And so it was socialistic. It was reducing, redistributing the wealth.

And so my friend wrote an answer to the book, Rich Christians, I think, in a

Hungry World. And the name of his book, Productive Christians, is an Age of Guilt Manipulators.

And it tells you a great deal about how to get the church and the family and voluntary associations involved in things rather than being slaves of the state.

Also, Carl Bisoner has some great books on that subject.

Yeah, he's been a guest on this program a number of times. He is great, and his books are really magnificent.

And so I highly recommend him. So don't fall into the trap of just assuming that the state is more competent than any other institution to do various things.

It's not competent to do anything except terrorize evildoers. Great. Thank you,

Ronald. And if you haven't already won a copy of With Liberty and Justice for All, Christian Politics Made Simple, we will have

CVBBS .com ship you out a copy. And I just want to plug the folks, the fine folks at Comprehensive Christianity who have provided these books for us to give away.

Their website is comprehensivechristianity .com, comprehensivechristianity .com.

We have an anonymous listener who says, whenever conservative

Christians that I know of start to go on a tirade against the welfare system and the socialist system that this country has adopted to take care of the poor, they often will say that is the job of the church, it's not the job of the government.

But the reality is that many of the churches that I have experienced near where I live are either too poor or not interested enough in doing that work of charity.

How do you respond to that? Well, I agree with whoever asked the question completely, that churches have abandoned their responsibility, particularly those that can afford it, have abandoned their responsibility because they don't realize that they are not just to win individuals to Christ, but to minister to culture and seek to transform culture by acts of compassion and by the preaching of the gospel.

And the other issue is a very important one too, some churches cannot afford to do that.

Well, that is a statement that's sort of true and there's a lot of aspects to that.

Churches can do something. You remember in the second Corinthians, the last part where Paul says that some people in a certain town,

I can't remember if that's Levica or somewhere, were very poor, but in their giving to the needy

Christians in Jerusalem, they gave more than they could afford to give. That even they would do without money themselves to make sure that the interest and welfare of other people was taken care of.

So you don't have to be a rich church to do these things. I've never pastored a rich church.

You don't have to have a rich church to do these things. You have to have people who are willing to put the interest or welfare of other people before themselves.

But then I understand the issue also is that churches don't have the money they should have and there's several reasons for that.

One is because people quit tithing. And in American history, when

Christians tithed, they were the ones that had the power in American economy.

That the American economy was controlled by people who tithed.

When that tithing stopped, then the state stepped in with its welfare. The second reason is, is because of all the rules and regulations and tax system in the

United States government making individuals poor. That the government steals from us through red tape bureaucracy, regulations, executive policies, laws.

And it's very difficult even for a Christian to take care of their ancient parents or grandparents because the civil magistrate is taking so much of their money making them pay for other people in social security, for instance.

So they can't even take care of their own people. I mean, it is an interrelated issue that the wealth, and you remember in Deuteronomy, God says, it is

I who gives you the power to make wealth. And in a society where the church is doing what it ought to do and where Christians generally are being what they ought to be, the government is going to be what it ought to be.

And that means that Christians are going to have more money because the government's not going to take so much money. And so why does

God bless Christians with money? He blesses them with money so they can tie to the spread of the gospel.

He blesses them with money so they can take care of people less fortunate than they are. He blesses them with money so that they can take care of their own children.

And in this culture, it's particularly difficult because we surrendered many generations ago and the state was very anxious and very quick to take the reins of power and with the reins of power to take the money of people.

With shackles come shackles. That when the state promises to give you money or give you welfare, you can bet your boot there's going to be shackles with them.

Amen. And wouldn't you agree that, and I mean no disrespect to the anonymous listener,

I don't know who you are, and I'm not trying to lump you in this category at all, please don't think that for a second, but there are people that the church should not help financially.

Like for instance, in 2 Thessalonians 3, verse 10, for even when we were with you, we used to give you this order.

If anyone is not willing to work, then he is not to eat either.

That is true. And you have people who are unrepentant, habitual drug addicts and all kinds of people that if you give them money, they're just going to use it for their own purposes or just not even bother getting a job because they're being funded by bouncing from church to church to church getting money from them.

Yes sir, that is not an opinion of man. That is the word of God himself. If a man is able to work and he doesn't work, neither should he eat.

Neither church nor family should finance an ungodly lifestyle.

There also is a proverb. I can't quote it directly, but I'll paraphrase it.

It says in effect, if somebody is running from the law because of felony and he's thirsty and he comes to your house and you know he's a felon and he says, please just give me a drink of water and I'll leave.

That if you give him a drink of water, you're accomplished to his actions. And so you're exactly right.

There are some people that do not deserve and should not be given the charity of the church so that we don't finance an evil lifestyle because one of the most important things those people can learn is another biblical statement that the life of the transgressor is hard.

And if we make the way of the transgressor easy, he'll continue to live in that way.

I have my son, my children are all grown now, but when one of my sons was a little boy,

I had to spank him for something or another and he cried and went to his room. And then when he finished crying, he came back and sat by me on the couch and reached up and put his arm around me and he said,

Daddy, the way of the transgressor sure is hard. Now, there is also a category of people that have no interest at all in ever darkening the door of your church other than to get food or money.

I can remember when I worked for WMCA Radio, a Salem media affiliate in New York, I had an office of my own being the

Long Island, New York representative at the time. I had an office in the building of the church where I was a member and I would work there sometimes late at night and I would get knocks at the door on occasion.

Local members of the community who wanted food and so on. And I would always take them down to the food pantry and load up baskets and bags of whatever they had available with food.

And I can remember one night, a couple came in and they had a very demanding, rude and proud attitude.

And I remember the woman said to me, where's your meat at? I said, excuse me?

Because she was dissatisfied with the canned goods and the non -perishable items.

She said, where's your meat at? And I said, do you think we have like a meat locker in here or something?

I said, do you think that this is like a government run food pantry where it's our obligation to feed anybody that comes by here?

I said, did you ever visit this church for a worship service? No, I got my own church.

I said, why aren't you there now asking them for your meat? Oh no,

I've been in that situation before. People would come to our church and beg. And by the way, you know, during John Knox's column, they outlawed begging.

And the reason they outlawed begging is because the church, there wasn't any beggars. And if you were begging, you were a rebel because that meant your church and your family, you were not participating in.

But anyway, so we've had some fake beggars through the years come to our church just for money.

And they always try to find something they can identify with, although they've never been to our church.

And I know they've never been to our church. They hope that you think they have. And so this one woman came to my office one time to beg for some money.

And, you know, she has smelled of cigarette smoke and well -dressed on the heavyside, so she wasn't doing without food.

And she comes into our office to try to find something she could identify with so that I would sympathize with her.

And I had a replica of the two tablets of the Ten Commandments. They're made of plaster of Paris on a table.

And she said, are those the original? That's hilarious.

Yeah. So the art makers when the church and the home is doing what it ought to be. And rebels are my good friend,

Bill Potter, who's one of the foremost Christian historians in America, recommended to me a book

I have yet to read. But just the other day, he says, one of the most important books I've ever read called The Age of Entitlement.

And he said, the point is today that people who are in various needs think they're entitled.

They've been raised from the very beginning to think they're entitled to the charity and the compassion of Christians and of people.

It's like the Ocasio -Cortez said to people, urging them not to go back to work, but to stay at home and not fall into the, this is about paraphrase, and fall into the terrible view that in order to eat, you have to work.

This is all pure Marxism. Everybody becomes slaves of the state, and therefore they are entitled.

And in fact, in our culture, you know what the state gives these people is entitlements because they're all entitled to give it.

And that's what's killing our country. This is Republicans and Democrats I'm talking about.

Right. We have to go to our final break right now. And if you want to join us, we are running out of time.

So please submit a question as soon as possible. And by the way, folks, I want to make it clear. I don't want to mislead anybody from the anecdote

I gave before. I don't think that Christians are to be overly micromanaging people's lives when they come for financial assistance or for food.

And I did give those folks that came to the church a lot of food. The difference that I was highlighting was the arrogance and the nastiness and the demanding spirit that this woman had, which is, you know,

I don't think that the church is obligated to help people maintain their laziness, which is just like putting a needle in a heroin addict's arm or a bottle of booze and alcoholics.

And, you know, we're hastening their death if we just give them free food and money and don't ever offer any kind of counsel, correction, rebuke or what have you.

And we're perpetuating slavery. That's right. That's right. And so if you have a question of your own, we're almost out of time.

Send us an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com. We'll be right back with more of Dr. Joe Moorcraft after these messages from our sponsors.

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Or visit lindbrookbaptist .org. That's lindbrookbaptist .org. Welcome back, and this is our final segment of today's interview with Dr.

Joe Moorcraft. I already know I want him back very soon. We have been discussing, with liberty and justice for all,

Christian politics made simple. By the way, we do have a listener named

Tom in Jenison, Michigan, who just offers a word of encouragement. He says,

Love Moorcraft, most underrated Christian historian in our day.

Thank you very much for that word of encouragement, Tom. Yeah, thank you very much. We have

Johnny in New York City. Johnny says, in Queens, New York, to be more specific, he says,

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How should God's people, grounded on biblical convictions against such heinous measures, stand against these wicked mandates and obey

God and not man? Important question, and I agree with his assessment of the situation completely.

And it is a very important issue. It says, the powers that be are ordained of God, and we're to submit to them, because all the civil magistrate is instituted by God, just like the church and family are instituted by God.

But the point of Romans 13 is, is we are to submit to the civil government as it submits to God, so that whenever the civil government makes laws and regulations that are based upon the law of God in the

Bible, the civil government is to be obeyed. But whenever the civil government passes laws that require us to disobey

God, we must disobey the civil government whatever the cost, even if it means death.

You remember Peter and John and the disciples were told by the municipal authorities in Acts, don't go out here and preach the gospel.

And they no sooner got outside the courthouse steps, so to speak, when they started preaching the gospel.

And they said, we must obey God rather than men. So understand the

Bible does not require Christians to obey the civil magistrate when it makes laws contrary to the law of God.

Jesus Christ, we have a higher allegiance to him than we do the civil government. And Jesus may never be disobeyed, ever disobeyed.

His law may never be disobeyed. And whenever the civil government steps in and makes laws that require us to disobey

Jesus Christ, the civil government, it's not the civil government that may be disobeyed.

The civil government must be disobeyed. And we're seeing,

I tell people, and I've been involved in politics for many years, that the most important political issue of the 21st century is not abortion.

It's not homosexual marriages, as important as those are. The most important political issue of the first part of the 21st century is who is the source of law.

The source of law, as Rush Dooney said, for any society is the

God of that society. You tell me where a nation goes to get its laws, and I will tell you the

God it worships regardless of what's written on its coins. You know, there's two chapters in the

Bible, Romans 13 and Revelation 13, that are fascinating when you look at them together.

Romans 13 says the civil government should be the minister of God unto you for good.

That is, it is to administer the law of God found in Holy Scripture, which can only be beneficial to a

God -fearing person's life. Romans 13 describes the civil government as a beast.

A beast that is an enemy to you and your family. Now what happens?

How does a civil government turn from being a minister of God to you for good, to being a beast that is an enemy to your family and to your church?

Interesting thing, and you don't have to have any one particular view of Revelation to agree with me on this, it says that if you don't have the mark of the beast written on your hands, your forehead, you will not be able to, you'll be persecuted by the beast.

You'll not be able to work, you'll experience the beast's wrath. Every symbol in the book of Revelation is explained somewhere earlier in the

Bible. So in Romans 13 where it says the beast, that is the civil government, requires you to bear a mark on your hand and your forehead or you'll suffer under its fury.

Is there anywhere else in the Bible where you can see that symbol of God talking about writing something on your forehead and on your hand?

Yes, it's in the book of Deuteronomy chapter 6 where God says that his people are to write his law upon their foreheads and upon their hands and upon their arms.

Now that's not a literal statement. That doesn't mean you have to write a phylactery, a little black box and wrap it around your hand because it also says in the

Bible you write the law of God on your tongue or on your eyes. And the point is when he says write the law of God upon your doorpost, write it upon your forehead, write it upon your hands, what he's saying is make the law of God, the governing authority of everything you do, everything you think and everything you are in this home.

So when the civil magistrate in Romans 13 requires a different mark and imposes a different law than the law of God upon its citizens, it becomes a threat and a beast to its citizens.

You know we've got to defend, define the word dictator correctly.

When you hear the word dictator today the average person thinks Hitler, Stalin, Idi Amin, somebody like that.

A dictator is any civil magistrate that imposes another law upon the people than the law of God and punishes them if they don't obey that law.

That means every congress of the United States in my lifetime has been a dictator.

And so we've got to see things through biblical eyes, not through republican eyes, not through conservative eyes, not through democrat eyes, not through liberal eyes, but as Christians through biblical eyes and realize that the civil magistrate becomes your enemy when it seeks to make you live by another law than the law of God contained in Holy Scripture.

Well, Joe, I'd like you to have a minute right now to just summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

A minute? Okay. Well, my point is that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth that Jesus is

Lord, and believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

The choice the early Christians had to make was Christ or Caesar. Am I going to tip my hat to Caesar and escape death even though I don't necessarily believe that Caesar is

God? Or am I going to refuse to bow to Caesar and be thrown to the lions because Jesus is the

Lord? They chose to be thrown to the lions because for them, and the word

Lord is kurios in Greek, and that's the title Caesar chose for himself.

It means king of kings and lord of lords. And the Christian says we only have one kurios, and he's sitting at the right hand of God.

He's not sitting in Rome. And that's why Acts 4 was a declaration of war on the

Roman Empire when it said there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved than the name of the

Lord Jesus Christ. And it's time for Christians now to lay aside their truncated, compromised understanding of the lordship of Christ and realize that they're accountable to him in every second and inch of their lives.

And the president of the United States and the governor of your state and the mayors of your cities are accountable to obey the

Lord Jesus Christ or perish under his righteous scepter. Amen.

And folks, if you want to find out more about Heritage Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia, the website is

HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com, HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com,

and don't forget about ComprehensiveChristianity .com, which is where you can find out more information on the book we have been discussing with Liberty and Justice for All.

ComprehensiveChristianity .com. Thank you so much, Dr. Mark Raft, and we look forward to your return. Always a pleasure. And I want you all always to remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.