14. PreConference 1 | Sam Frost | The Dangers of Full Preterism

Everything is ordained. What a lovely song. Thank you. A lot of these conferences don't have worship. What's the point of going to a conference if there's no worship? I'm going to take this off. I'm not real big on name tags.

No, you are. So yeah, and I've got that. So I was asked to talk about this false plethorism stuff. And I wanted to tackle two things in it. The first is how I got in it. How does somebody out of Bible college in the late 1980s fall into something that I look at now as, in fact, dangerous?

I've seen lives destroyed. I've seen families destroyed. Several of my friends have become agnostic. And several, some prominent, are now atheists, just outright atheists. And Jeremiah knows who some of those are.

These are friends of mine, full preterists. We went to conferences and all of that together. So I thought I would give a little bit of my story, how I got involved in it, and then how I got out of it and the dangers that are in it and what to look for.

Because we're out there. And we would talk about at the conferences. And these conferences went all the way from Vermont. I spoke at over 25 conferences. And they went all the way from Arizona, Minnesota, St. Paul, Minneapolis, Vermont, Ohio, several in Indiana, several in Florida, Alabama, Missouri.

So we were all over the place. And from 2004 to roughly around 2009, there were about three or four of these a year. And Don Preston, and you'll hear me mention his name a lot, because he single-handedly is the most prolific author.

He's probably got about 20 or so books out now. And he cranks about one or two out a year. They're just getting to be cut and pasted now. It's like a Jack Van Emby or a Hal Lindsey book. Once you've read three Hal Lindsey books, you've read them all.

They just kind of keep staying up with the headlines or whatever. And Don is doing the same. But he's the most prolific author that's out there, hands down, and certainly the most popular and well-known that is out there as far as the leading.

Voice of full preterism.

How Full Preterism Entered the Church World

And I was right there with him. He published my book, Exegetical Essays, on the Resurrection. That was in 2010. And it was late 2010, early 2011, that the Lord, I guess, brought me out of it. And that was an agonizing time.

And I'll go into some of the details there. Because Don and I were planning on how to, we weren't interested in evangelizing so much of the world. It was the church we were after. So at our conferences, us, Dave Curtis, me, Mike Sullivan, Don Preston, and Ed Stephens, and back in the day, John Anderson, there'd be Larry Siegel, Jack Scott, John Noe.

We would get together, Tim Martin, and strategize how to infiltrate churches. Because that was our audience. We already had a foothold in the door there. The world is not interested on our debates about where did Cain get his wife from.

That's not something they're interested in. But I've already got your attention if you believe in the story of Genesis, and then we can go in and I can, my foot's already in the door. So our interest and our evangelist interest was in the churches, to infiltrate the churches.

Because many full preterists still went to churches because there's no full preterist churches. At the time, there were only a few. Max King was one, but then he got drummed out of the Church of Christ.

You can't get kicked out of the Church of Christ for heresy. So, yeah, that's like being kicked out of the Disciples of Christ over here. But you have everything going on there. What could possibly? So, Don Preston did, but he stepped down, Jack Scott took that one over, and that one is in Ardmore, and I don't think it's running anymore.

And then there was Dave Curtis, Grand Bible Church, and that's in Virginia. And I spoke at a couple of his conferences, got to know Dave pretty well. He's the one that says that we continue to sin in heaven.

Yeah, it's bizarre.

So, William Bell has a church, that I'm hearing more recently in Arkansas, there's a couple that are cropping up, but you can count them on your hands and toes, almost. There's not a bunch of them.

There's a reason for that.

Dispensationalism as the Gateway to Preterism

Well, I grew up, I've been in church all my life, and I love everything about church,.

And churches, and the pews, and everything.

The smells, you notice every church has its own smell and odor to it, and you walk into a church like, oh, that's a church, that's a church smell. This is how I got into it, this idea right here. That's how, it's preterism.

That's the gateway drug. So, when you're a dispensationalist, I grew up dispensational, and I'll be 57 in May. So, that dates me, I was born in 67, and can name all of my Sunday school teachers from the earliest that I can possibly remember growing up in Foursquare Church, that big of a name.

Then Sunday school teachers, I still remember the faces of these lovely people that said that Jesus loves me, and they would sing these songs to me, and they made such an impression that never went away.

From Sunday school teachers into children is one of the most important things, amen, because that just, I was like, I want to be like these people. They're so nice, and they love me, and Jesus loves me, and it's just, I never went away.

I love the church. So, but it's dispensational. You figure back in the 70s, and then 1973, 74, Orson Welles narrates The Great Plague, and the late great planet Earth, Hal Lindsey, and then the movie comes out, they show the movie at our church.

So, I'm what, six years, and watching this, and that's it, the world is ending, and that's it.

When you're six years old and seeing those images,.

On that, and it's amazing, if you've never seen the movie, I highly, highly recommend you see this movie. I think it's 1974, late great planet Earth, because it really just puts it out there, and it's got all of the warfare imagery, and all of the scriptures, and everything's coming together.

You got Orson Welles, he's narrating it, and it just, it was a very well-made Hollywood production documentary, and it's the end of the world, that's it. That's what the Bible says, and then your pastor's saying the same thing.

So, it's dispensationalism. I grew up with that, Schofield Reference Bible, the whole nine yards. Then you go to Bible college, and then you're introduced to the rest of Christianity, and church history, and guys like Melanchthon, and Calvin, and Augustine, and Irenaeus, and all that other stuff, and you're open to these ideas of amillennialism and postmillennialism.

You thought that your view growing up was what the church taught, and then you go to college, and you realize, oh, the churches teach different doctrines. They have a whole different array, and eschatology, it's like autism.

It's a wide spectrum. It's a big, giant, huge, wide spectrum. It depends on where you land at,.

And full plethorism is right in that.

So, I had a few professors, and they introduced me to a book. First of it was Reform Doctrine of Predestination by Lorraine Bettner, and I read that book. I'm very young, and I read that book,.

And thought, boy, that's,.

I always heard bad things about Calvinists,.

That this book is just chock full of scriptures.

It's just really what that book is, and if you don't have that book, you should get it. You can get it for free. Lorraine Bettner never sold any of his books. He gave them away, and he was a teacher of systematic theology at Westminster Theological Seminary.

He also wrote a book called The Millennium, and that book I read, and it was unlike anything, and it really jarred my thinking, and it was at that time, somebody handed me a book by David Chilton called Paradise Restored, and the cover of that was just awesome.

Look, it's nice color, and just drew me in. I thought, boy, this is an interesting book, and I'm going to class in Revelation at the time, and our instructor's using George Ladd's commentary on Revelation, so I'm reading David Chilton's imaginative and very well-written, lively interpretation of Revelation, and I'm reading scholarly, boring George Ladd's work on the commentary of Revelation, and the artwork is just Revelation commentary.

Paradise Restored, fruits are coming off the top. I'm like, yeah, this one, and I have a real, I've got one of those minds that I can image, I image things in my mind very clearly. So, that caught my attention, started reading it, and it started making sense, because you're in Bible college and you're starting to hear about people named Josephus, and Suetonius, and Tacitus, and you're starting to read the first century stuff, and I had the luxury of having two professors that took me under their wings and saw something in me, I guess, and mentored me, and really got into that in 70 AD, and I assume for a good part of this that I'm speaking to, I'm speaking to an audience that knows some of this stuff, so I don't have to go into details and all of that, and that's just basic preterism.

Matthew 10:23 and the Imminence of Christ's Coming

You start studying Greek, you start getting into the textual apparatus, the critical apparatus, and you start learning about textual criticism, and this, that, and the other, going a little bit further, and there's some problems of interpretation that go on.

Some of you standing here, Jesus says, you are not finished going through the cities of Israel, until the Son of Man comes, and you read somebody like D .A. Carson, he says, this is the most notoriously, this is the most notorious verse in the entire New Testament, and you read a William Barclay, Matthew 10, 23, he says, this verse has spilled 1 ,000 bottles of ink.

Why can't these scholars figure this stuff out? I mean, you go to school for this, right? And then you continue to read it, and then you read it in Greek, and yeah, it's eminent. There's no doubt about it, there's no doubt about it.

That verse, that verse, Matthew 10, 23, that one's the one. That launched 1 ,000. So, now I believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, the Chicago Statement of Faith, Westminster Confession. The Bible is the Word of God written.

I hope I don't offend anybody here, but I love Gordon Clark and his philosophy and what he has to say about Scripture. One of the books, best books on Scriptural inerrancy is a book called God's Hammer by Gordon Clark.

It's just, he just tears up textual criticism like there's no tomorrow. But this verse asserts that Jesus, so according to Schweitzer, is a failed prophet because obviously he didn't come, right? It just didn't happen.

That's pretty standard today. That goes back into the 19th century. That's your higher critical schools. So, the 19th century becomes this brewing ground. German higher criticism. Apocalyptics is really starting to kick in.

You're getting all these eschatologies, you're getting dispensationalism. 19th century, that's a reaction to this criticism that's going on.

What do you do with Jesus saying,.

The time is at hand, the kingdom of God is at hand? Some of you standing here will not taste that. This generation, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel, and it didn't happen. Jesus is a failed prophet, which is a direct assault on the inerrancy of Scripture, is it not?

If Jesus is a failed prophet, I'll see you guys later. I'm out of here, I'm done. I've got better things to do. What's the point? He was not a failed prophet.

Instead, he made the offer.

It was imminent, could have happened right then,.

But the Jews, they didn't receive it, and so they postponed.

That's the answer, that's the solution. And so, God introduced a mystery period of the church that the prophets or no one else knew about, and that is where Paul comes in. And then the church will be raptured out, and then the kingdom of the hand message will come back again, and this time, they won't reject it, and it'll set about the seven years' tribulation, and then that'll be the last days, and then resurrection of the dead.

Well, no.

Now, I grew up with that.

I grew up with that. But as a biblical scholar, that doesn't, that just doesn't work. And a lot of dispensationalists have left, or modified, they try to, they realize that the early Scofield, Darby kind of stuff is,.

Just doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't work.

Covenant Fulfillment, the Church, and Romans 8

Okay, Jesus is not a failed prophet. Dispensationalism doesn't work. 70 AD, that's what he's referring to. And his promises are not fulfilled literally, but they're fulfilled spiritually. They're fulfilled, and this was our favorite word, fulfilled covenantally, because there's a lot of wealth of covenant information, covenant theology.

Doesn't have anything to do with substance, changing your substance. It has everything to do with your stance, not your substance, your stance, your standing. Forensic, it's legal, it's spiritual, it's something the spirit does, you can't see it.

Not with our eyes, anyway. And okay, there's a lot of wealth of literature there about spirituality. We're spiritually raised from the dead. In Christ, you've been seated with Christ. Well, not, yeah, but positional, but spiritually.

Okay, yeah. You've been made alive with Christ. Yeah, there's a lot of language there. You can read that in Calvin, you can read that in a lot of theology. Francis Church and Indigo, and you read John Owen, we call these the four Johns.

John Owen, John Gill, John Brown, and John Lightfoot. Lightfoot being the earliest. So Lightfoot starts studying in the Reformation, this is 17th century. Just a couple hundred years out of the Reformation.

And everyone's running around because they're trying to translate into the original languages, so you have to know Hebrew. So now they're looking for rabbis, like Luther's looking for a rabbi teaching Hebrew,.

So he can bring Hebrew into the German tongue.

And, no, but he was the first to do that. But anyway. You know, these Hebrews, they've got a whole library of material and stuff over here we're starting to discover, and they've got the Talmud and the Mishnah, and they've got lexicons, and they've got all kinds of stuff.

And so Reformers, Evangelicals, John Lightfoot being one of the first, began to delve into that material, began to wring it over and say, you know what? A lot of this stuff in the Talmud makes a lot of sense in the New Testament.

Sounds like Paul, who's a Pharisee. And so slowly is introduced the ideas, which rightly so, of this New Testament background of Jewish first century second temple Judaism, which is pretty staple today in any university or seminary you go to now.

But back then, it wasn't, it was brand new. One of the things that Lightfoot does is he really, with a vengeance, interprets New Testament passages as referring to one of the most important events in Jewish life, and you see it on almost every page in much of the literature of the Talmud.

They celebrate even a holiday, it's not a holiday, it's a memorial day of 70 AD. And not a lot of Christians know a lot about 70 AD. I can tell you growing up in the 70s in a four square gospel church, I've never really even heard of 70 AD or the significance of it at all.

And when you start reading about 70 AD and then you start reading Josephus, you're like, my goodness, this is horrible. This is a horrible, horrible war. And it went on in the same generation that Jesus.

And he even says, not one stone, abomination of desolation. The emperor Titus proclaimed himself as God. Yeah, this is not the future, this is the past. And John Lightfoot brings that into covenant structure.

He also brings it into Romans chapter eight. And I love John Lightfoot. He was one of the Westminster divines. He presided over the Westminster confessional, the drafting of it. He's one of the greats.

But in Romans chapter eight, it's talking about our present sufferance. That's not our present sufferance. That's first century, Paul's present sufferance. Stop reading their mail. Stop putting yourself in their.

Now, some of you may agree with that, but do you see how you can get, here it comes. Because when he starts talking about, and we shall be alive, and the dead shall be raised.

He's not talking about you.

Paul's talking about himself. The resurrection is in the first century. Once you go down that line, it's very easy to continue down it. Unless you think Paul's wrong.

Did Paul think the resurrection.

Was gonna happen in his generation? Be careful how you answer that. That's a huge debate right now in academia. Gigantic. These are people that don't believe in the Bible, but they're trying to read the text anyway.

So that's the most people I hang out with. A lot of my colleagues don't believe in the Bible. They're interested in what it said. They're trying to get at what it's saying.

They believe in Paul.

There was a guy named Paul who wrote what he wrote. So I consider our present sufferings, Jewish, are not worthy to compare with the glory that will be revealed in us. You say, well, right there. See, that didn't happen in 70 AD.

Well, is the Holy Spirit in you? Who is the glory of God? Do you see? Stop looking with the eyes of your flesh. You see where this goes? Why does glory have to be, all of a sudden, you're completely changed?

The creation waits with eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. Now, the creation there refers to what creation? I have created you to be a nation. That's referring to Israel. And it's waiting who are the sons of God to be revealed.

Is it the ones that are fighting for the Jerusalem temple and that are giving their lives over to Yahweh, and Yahweh will rescue Jerusalem and make it the center of the earth and exonerate the true people of God?

Or those who flee the Jerusalem temple and follow Jesus, who says that this temple is not the temple of God, but the temple above is. And when the temple is destroyed in 70 AD, who are the sons of God?

Which one did God pick? That's all that that's referring to.

That's it.

No rapture.

No earth-wide tumult. It's a local war that happened to a covenant people that were disowned of their covenant. Now, you go and you look at Witsius, like Herman Witsius and others, and Lightfoot and Brown and John Gill, and I know I'm picking on John Gill.

So, Gill talks about the end of the Jewish, they would use the word, the end of the Jewish economy. The end of the Jewish age, when their covenantal order came to an end. Oh, that's not end of the world.

Like Hal Lindsey said, that's the end of the age, the covenant age. That covenant age, the new covenant age came in, and the destruction of the temple was a coming of God that visibly, historically displayed, I'm done with this.

I have a new covenant.

You know, that makes sense. In Revelation, the great city there where our Lord was crucified, that's not the Roman Catholic Church. How could John be prophesying the Roman Catholic Church? That was Jerusalem.

That's apostate Jerusalem. That's Babylon, the whore.

Heck, you find the descriptions of it.

In Ezekiel all over the place that matches it, and you go down the line and down the line, and you find a lot of Reformed folks, folks that I know, that began to teach that basically what I call this.

These are the 95 percenters. 95 of the Bible's fulfilled in 70 AD. Well, as a budding scholar in the 90s, it's not that difficult to find the rest of the 5%. My only disagreements is that my creeds, the Westman store or the London Baptist or the Helvetica or whichever ones,.

Nicene, whichever one.

They all look forward to a future. But those are man-made, right? The Westminster Confession states that creeds have and may err. And in light of current scholarship, these man-made fallible creeds have err.

I can get around that one.

But what's the big one?

Well, there's two of them. And our brother Jeremiah's gonna talk about one of them.

That one's a big one.

What do you do with that?

And then the other one is the 1 ,000 years.

What do you do with that?

These are the two Achilles heels. But when you got that going on, 95 of the Bible's fulfilled. And you're speaking, much like my dispensationalism kicks in with my preterism, and it's an end of an age, so I already start, I understand that.

Yeah, it's an end of an age. Not the end of the world, it's the end of the covenant age. And I've got plenty of reformers, dead guys that are saying that in the 17th and 18th and 19th century. So just bring that on over, build that.

Resurrection is, what Paul says, we're made alive through regeneration. How do you deal with that? Well, in the 19th century, there was guys named J. Stuart Russell and Milton Terry. And Milton Terry basically borrowed heavily off J. Stuart Russell.

And James Stuart Russell wrote a book called The Pharisee. And he's a 95%.

He even had a rapture.

There was a rapture in 1780. Literally, people just disappeared. Not a lot of people followed James Stuart Russell and his work, and it fell out of print, basically. It was Ed Stephens who contacted Baker Bookhouse to reprint that book, the black book, called The Pharisee.

And I still have that book, and that's been reprinted over and over again. And then people like R .C. Sproul, they put it in their book, The Last Days According to Jesus, so they're giving sort of a prominence to it.

But that was my, that was the book that, when you read that book, all you gotta do is get around this. But James Stuart Russell said that the thousand years is still in our future, it still goes off into the end.

So he was not willing to let go of that in the future. And then Milton Terry that follows him, he's quoting heavily in Biblical hermeneutics, he's just quoting James Stuart Russell using his work. He brings him up, he says the same thing.

Now who's Russell building off? Russell's building his work off of John Brown, John Gill, John Lightfoot, and John Owen. For these men, 2 Peter 3 is fulfilled in 70 AD, to a large extent. Now when you give up Romans chapter 8, you've given up all of Matthew 24, it's like chess.

You have given me most of Revelation in 70 AD, and now you're gonna give me 2 Peter chapter 3, that's 70 AD. What else do I need? The only thing I gotta get around is this. And it's not that hard to do when you start reading the literature on spiritual resurrection.

Spiritual resurrection, yeah, why would we want a fleshly resurrection when the flesh profits nothing? It's the spirit. And Jesus brought in the dispensation of the spirit because the dispensation of death, 2 Corinthians chapter 4, or chapter 3, which is called by Paul the old covenant, the administration of death, the old covenant, the law, okay, the old covenant law that brought nothing but death.

And Jesus died as a Jew to end that age and bring in the age of salvation and the filling of the Holy Spirit and regeneration and a new covenant of life. So again, it has nothing to do any more than justification by faith has anything to do with changing my biological body, but it has everything to do with changing, we would say this a lot, Don Preston and I would say this a lot.

It's not about, do you want me to use another one? You see there, I thought I had another one.

So it's, oh yeah. So it's not about substance,.

It's about stance. It's your stance. Now stasis, those of you who know Greek,.

So stasis is standing, subsistence.

So your stasis, your standing. So it's about your standing, what God declares you. God declares you as alive, made alive in Christ. That's resurrection, made alive in Christ. Well, in order to be in Christ, I've got to leave the old man in Adam.

I've got to leave the corporate identity, the corporate identification that I have of my life in Adam, and I've got to leave that and die to that and come into my corporate identity, into the body and life of the new covenant of Christ.

That's Max King, and it sounds really great. And he's drawing off a great deal of theologians like Herman Ritterboss and J .A .T. Robinson and several others. In his book, if you get any book on full preterists, it's Max King's Crossing the Parasite of Christ.

It's a 900-page tour de force written in 1988, and it is hands down the best. It's Don Preston's view, essentially. It's my view, my book that Don still sells and publishes, I've asked him not to, but he still does.

It shows the type of class of person you're dealing with. Could you imagine if you left some KKK group and you became a born-again Christian and now you're anti-KKK, but you wrote a book when you were KKK and the KKK are still publishing that book, and you're just like, please don't.

I don't, that's not me anymore. Please stop doing it.

That's how I feel. But Don publishes it anyway, and it sells because I still get people that even say, hey, that's a great book on us, and I don't endorse that anymore. Now the last guy, so Don's published, Don publishes his own material, right?

J. Don Publishing, but he enlisted two authors, me, I left, and Alan Bondar, who became an atheist. So his track record on bringing in other authors is not very good, and I know he'll hear this,.

Which I want him to.

But it has everything to do with this stance or change.

Why Bodily Resurrection and the Church Still Matter

So why can't a bodily resurrection be in 70 AD, as our brother Jeremiah will talk about? Well, because we still excavate bones and stuff, right? There was no resurrection. We still got mummies. If there was a bodily resurrection, as the church fathers believed in, and as our confessions state, self-same body, the Westminster Confession states, very clear as to what it means.

It doesn't matter if you were eaten by cannibals. It doesn't matter if your body has, for 1 ,000 years, died and rotted next to the roots of a tree that rooted into your body, and it scattered the molecules, and the molecules were then digested into the tree, and then someone comes along and eats the apple, and they're eating part of it.

That's not an obstacle to God. Paul's answer to that, and our brother will get to that, but when they ask, how are the dead raised? Why have a body buried at sea, that's scattered among the sea? There's no body there to be raised.

God's going to, fool!

That's Paul's response.

Athron!

That's about the heaviest response a Jew can give. That's the word that a fool says in their heart, there is no God. That's that word. How dare you ask that kind of question? If God said he's going to raise the dead.

I'm getting my Jewish thing going on here. My Jewish friends. If God said he's going to raise the dead, it is the dead that he will raise. There is no obstacle to God. Do you not know that God created the sun, the moon, and the stars, and the beasts, and the flesh of fish, and the flesh of chickens, and the flesh of animals, and he's created the stars, and the moon, and the sun, and then he quotes Genesis 2 -7, and out of dirt, he made a man, and you're telling me he can't raise the dead?

Please.

Brothers, I speak to you a mystery. But that's not an objection to the argument. But in that understanding of the resurrection of the dead, that clearly did not happen in 70 A .D. So everything has to become covenantalized, and or spiritualized.

And having looked over again, I don't want to spoil who I blame for being here, Jeremiah. Jeremiah. Jeremiah kept me in this, because I was going to leave. And because I just, you know, the arguments have been met, you know, it's like these guys.

But then he said, you know, some pastors, some friends were doing, starting a church, and we were friends of his. And I heard that kind of hurt, because I've had friends of mine, and it's very tough. I lost a lot of friends.

And, you know, they were coming to these full-predators churches, and I'm like, man, is this, is it growing, it can't be growing.

Well, it is.

And I thought, well, you know, I've debated Holder Neubauer, I've debated William Bale, I've debated Michael Miano, I've debated Don Preston. You know, I've debated these guys. I've written the work, it's on my blog.

The work has been out there. There's been numerous ex-full-predators that have come out and have written books. I mean, you know, I'm really just done with this. And Jeremiah, he turned my mind, and I never saw it that way before.

He said, no, no, Dr. Frost, you need to stay in it to expose it for what it is, so that when churches who have never heard of it see it in their midst, they can say, hey, you're full-predators, we need to deal with you.

Elders?

I thought, oh, that's brilliant.

I never even thought about that. And then he said, I want everyone to hear about full-predatorism,.

So they see it when it's coming.

Because that's the problem. You don't see it when it's coming. And when you get into it, now I was talking, Brother Jeff, I was talking with you, where, yeah, it's attractive, isn't it? Very attractive.

Witness one, Gary DeMar. Now I felt, I said, when I opened this up, in fact, five more minutes, five minutes, whatever.

What am I at?

Actually, 13 more minutes, if you want.

13 more minutes?

Do they count 13 as a minute,.

Or is it like an elevator in a hotel,.

You skip that, or?

We did. We did.

We did an hour, but we started out with singing.

Okay, 13 minutes.

Where was I at? Yes, Gary DeMar. Why, I live full-predatorism. On the back of it, and that's the old Pentium that Gentry still printed. Even though Gary wrote me and said, take that off your book, I no longer endorse your book, and then American Vision dropped it, and they no longer sell it anymore.

And so, that hurt. I was like, oh man, Gary, what's going on? And Gary wouldn't, you know, James White was a part of this, Gary wouldn't condemn hyper-predatorism as heresy. Look, if you're a PCA or a Reformed Baptist, and part of your joining the membership is ascribing to the thing, you can't be a member of a group.

You can't!

It goes directly against what you're saying. And so, just this friendly, oh yeah, they're all right, it's just another eschatology. It's not another eschatology. Because of what we were doing, that Gary's going down that road.

It's very clear that he is.

He says that he is, and closer than I am to him, personally,. Gary, what are you doing? Gary doesn't care. He's bittersweet, because on one hand, it was like, yeah, that's how I got into it.

Just that you could follow,.

And I've been following and reading Gary since 1989, 90, and stuff, when he was putting stuff out with Dominion Press out of Tyler, Texas. So, you could just watch it. And then he spoke, the first time I met Gary was at a bullfighter's conference.

I was speaking, and he was speaking. And we thought that was just great. Gary DeMar is speaking at our little full preterist conferences. This is great. It's an endorsement. He's not condemning us. That gets our foot just a little bit more into the church.

We're legitimate. And then I got my MAR from Whitfield Theological Seminary, and got my two years Hebrew from Reform Theological Seminary, and I was a full preterist, so naturally, Don Preston's wanting to, hey, see, reform.

He's got a degree, and he's a full preterist. It's legitimate, because we were looking for big names. We just couldn't find them. But Gary has just afforded us that, or them, that. And they know it. And he just recently spoke at Dave Curtis's in May.

He just spoke at one of their conferences. He doesn't have a problem with it. He's never been at it from the other side.