TiL- A Defense of Cessationism part 4

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TiL- A Defensive of Cessationism part 5

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Welcome again to the truth and love podcast. Thank you so much for your support and watching us again.

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We're recording So leave us a comment and we'll get the notification We'll try to answer your questions or and read your critiques

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But we would love to hear from you let and know that you are watching. So we appreciate you again, we are

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Continuing our series on a defense of cessationism. This is

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Number five four four four Row number four stick with us

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That's why you're with me that is why you're with me to keep me straight on my thinking theologically and otherwise

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There we go. I'm almost there on the baptism issue You're still working

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Few years ago, I congratulate you on your persistence I Got to that's right

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Well, we wouldn't jump back in on our defense of cessationism the last episode,

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I think we would did a really good job on defining what we mean by the cessationism and we are we are taking on the task of reading scripture

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To hear what God has to say not using experience But hearing what

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God has to say and so that will inform how we think that will inform how we live and We feel like we we have drawn the conclusion of cessationism and so we want to Show that as we go along while we hold the view of cessation and and while we think that's what

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God is is Teaching us through his word Even if we disagree on where it teaches us, that's right.

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That's right. And and we may we may disagree and and Dan will have to Sharpen me and and correct me and help me in my thinking on these

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Some of these passages coming up because I'm I may see some things that he doesn't see

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Or understand it in the exact same way But he will help me and he'll help us in our our thinking on this

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You help me a lot you do you help me a lot So, let's jump back into chapter 12

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And we ended with verse 26. Let me read verse 27 through 31

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What will wrap up the chapter now? You are Christ's body and individually members of it and God has appointed in the church first Apostles second prophets third teachers then miracles then gifts of healing helps administrations various kinds of tongues

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All are not apostles. Are they all are not prophets? Are they all are not teachers?

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Are they all are not workers of miracles? Are they all do not have gifts of healings? Do they all?

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Do not speak in tongues. Do they all do not interpret do they but earnestly desire the greater gifts and I show you a still more excellent way good stuff.

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Yeah He starts off with where we wrapped off. What? Well, obviously he does because he's kind of Summing it up talking about the body.

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Yep he Tells him that there's a body explicitly

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And he says and individual members of it. So he's pulling back together Everything that they just heard he's what kind of working in reverse.

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Here you go. You're all together one You're all individually going to receive gifts from the

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Holy Spirit And so need to be able to relate with one another on that basis for everybody else's edification and then he uh,

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I Don't I don't know why I don't know why but he he kind of starts.

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Uh, I Hate to say rank I mean,

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I wouldn't hate to say rank that I've done it a bunch but It's a great way or or Not necessarily order of importance, but kind of that idea from before there are some body parts that should be

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Covered more because they're more delicate than others. There are more some that are out in the open front and center and But I don't think

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Paul is opposed to that kind of thinking either because in verse 31 he uses the the terms greater gifts

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So I don't think yeah, sure But I'm just saying that I don't I don't necessarily think he's ranking them to say that some are better than others but I think he is ranking them in order of I don't know importance is a bad word to Outward helpfulness of the church, maybe maybe

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I see what you're saying. It's it's a bad way of putting it to by It's really hard to describe because you know, he just finished talking about how he

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How each gift is important and we shouldn't look down upon one another Right, and they all have their place all have their purpose and all the purposes are important, right?

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But I think he's he's what he's getting at here is these gifts in this order will benefit the church as A whole to a greater or lesser degree and and I can

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I can back that up I think as we look at the list First Apostles now obviously

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Apostles would be those sent by Christ Those sent by Christ and those that we now have in scripturated

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In the word so they they were the ones that There was a foundation built

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Jesus Christ is a cornerstone of the Apostles and the prophets. Those are the ones that that are the

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Old Testament prophets that came before and the New Testament Apostles who came out from Christ them together are are

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Are They're the ones who God has sent out in order to to guide his church from a human perspective

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Now they're being led by the Holy Spirit with their giftings as well But they're establishing churches.

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They're doing the hard work of evangelism. They're planning churches all over the place They're serving on the Council of Jerusalem.

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They were the ones who walked and talked with Christ who? if somebody's gonna gonna

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Somebody who was called out by God to do a specific Specific work in the vein of Apostle.

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That's a terrible way to put it. I just use a sentence in the definition But they're they're the foundation

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There they were charged with spreading the church spreading the message of the gospel now other people had some evangelism and stuff

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But these had an extra Focused Job to do no planning churches and doctrinal issues and prayer and all the things that the

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Apostles were sent to do after that after you have your foundational headpieces

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Subordinate headpiece subordinate headpieces to Christ, of course you have

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Where we at second prophets? Apostles prophets

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Prophets being I believe those who would tell the future as well as those who came before Foundation of the

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Apostles and prophets not only those who would tell the future but those who would speak the Word of God you can

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Say those who would preach as well there and then teachers

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So there are those who have a word from the Lord who speak and then those who can help explain stuff There's already been taught and laid down So right there at the top you have those who can teach and edify the church as a whole

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They can tell of the the glories of the gospel. They can aid people in counseling

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Their entire job is to look after the spiritual well -being of the entire body of Christ And those things are the things he's saying is first second and third

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And then they come after and then after that is miracles why because it confirms their message

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After that gift of healings why because it's a work of mercy to those who are hurting we're suffering and then helps

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What is your translation say there for helps Um healings in verse 30 verse 28 verse 28

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Miracles healings Miracles and gifts of healings helps. Yeah. Yeah helps.

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I mean you can help people Yeah, I mean why not administrations people who are good at administering stuff in various tongues

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Various tongues comes down there last and we'll see why in verse first 14 It's not necessary.

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Well, it is a vital function of the church at that time It's not necessarily there to benefit the whole body in the same way that the

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Apostles prophets and teachers are right, and so he ranks them not not an order of importance or He doesn't say that the people who have these gifts are more important than others

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What he does say is that these gifts are? They're going to benefit the church in a more

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Far -reaching manner right and some of the some of the other ones It seems like he's exercising the gift of administration here because they're they're different roles

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They're different purposes and it makes me think about another Another way this idea is is used and I'm sure greater theologians have come up with some kind of Great phraseology good theological terms to label this idea, but you think about The concept of there's no more

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Jew Greek slave free You have that concept of everybody's, you know equal at the foot of the cross but then and then you have the concept of Male and female head of household the the rankings with within the

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Household governmental system the the elders of the church and then the deacons so so there's

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Different offices sure that are higher than others so you have that concept of yes spiritually

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Salvific Lee there's equality, but then there's different roles and administrations right as far as worth goes right

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Equality yeah as far as functionality goes. That's right. There's there's a there's a bit of a hierarchy there.

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Yes Yes, and the reason why the worth is the same is because all of them come from one source from God himself

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Yeah So so no matter which gift you have you being faithful in the use of that gift is

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What determines? You know how well you're doing right?

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It's not really the gift itself It's it's your faithfulness to what God has given you right and you can see how the the gift of administrations could be

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Could have developed and changed over time In its usefulness so in this period where where we have a bigger spike.

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You don't have this set up This this local church Administration set up like we do now

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We don't have just like with tongues. We don't have the they didn't have the complete Revelation prophecy

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They didn't have the complete Revelation. They didn't have but Paul throughout his writings

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Teach us what does church look like what does local church look like you need to You need to establish elders in every church.

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You need to have deacons. This is their qualifications So we have all that set up so the person or the

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Holy Spirit. That's gifting somebody Maybe now with administrations is going to be the one that takes that Understands it properly and help supply

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Yeah, make sure make sure that things are working in the right direction Yeah, we know that we're supposed to give to the poor and help help the orphans and widows.

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So boom I'm gonna set up a program to do that. Yeah You know the deacon it needs needs help with somebody who can run a

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Soup kitchen or something do that, right? You know how to run stuff. Yeah, you're a manager a supervisor.

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Sure Yeah, only not like most managers and supervisors

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Anybody who's been on the bottom rung below a manager a supervisor knows exactly what

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I'm talking about exactly So after he talks about the various kinds of tongues

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He has a series of rhetorical questions. Mm -hmm It's weird in the

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Greek but your version said How to put it they're not all

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Apostles are they right all are not Apostles are they right? This one just says are all

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Apostles Are all prophets are all teachers are all workers of miracles.

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You all have gifts of healings and the the way that it is in the

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Greek that there's a The way that the structure set up all of them are answered in the negative

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So you don't have to actually put the negative in there it's a rhetorical question that ends in a negative answer so no

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So are all Apostles? No are all prophets? No. So the saying is is are

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Do all people have all things? No, so what do we do with this?

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I'm Not everybody's gonna have Apostleship not everybody's gonna be a prophet or a teacher.

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Not everybody's gonna have no healings and miracles So what if I'm sitting down here towards the bottom of this list and I'm just doing

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Administrations, you know, maybe I feel you know, I know you told me as a toe.

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I should feel good. But what What gives how do I think about this?

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He says I'm gonna show you a way that's even more excellent than that And what he does here is he says no matter what your gift is

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No matter which way the Spirit is is Giving you to work in the church

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This is the way that you should think about doing it. This is the way that you should go about doing it.

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So kind of like You do electrical stuff, right? No, no, you do water.

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Okay water. You definitely don't want to be doing electrical Fair enough, but there are in in electricity

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There is volts and there aren't amps The volts are important, but if you have a billion volts and zero amps

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Nothing happens. Well, nothing positive happens or nothing

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Worthwhile happens. I guess you could say but you add a little bit of amperage. Mm -hmm and boom

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You're cooking It's kind of the same way here You may have you may be running on 480 volts 220 volts 110 volts or you may be running on low amperage doorbell volts, but here's the amperage

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That will bump you up. So you're all running on full cylinders. It doesn't matter where you start at what what list

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What part of the list you're on if you want to glorify God to your fullest potential Here's how you do it.

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Here's how you add the amperage to what it is that you're doing Yeah, and then he says

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I will show you a more excellent way And then he just he just starts into verse 13 when we start with verse 1 through 3 unless you got something

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Well to wrap up to wrap up chapter 12. This is kind of where I was going when I was talking about I don't think chapter 12 should end right there

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Sure, yeah But I didn't make the I didn't make the chapter verse marks Neither did

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Paul. It's true but uh This is kind of where I was going when

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I was saying reading through it. You see a progression You see a thought process with Paul as he's writing.

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So we Paul talked about the gifts. He gave us the gifts and then this section that we

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Pretty much in in last episode we went through He was given the spiritual teaching of these gifts and then here's the other

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Side of the other bookend of this teaching. He gives us the gifts again and then that verse 29

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Verse 30 between 930. He's telling them Here's you need to be thinking rightly about these gifts

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You you don't need to think about them incorrectly you need to be thinking about them rightly and then in verse 31 you don't need to be over emphasizing overthinking

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These gifts there's a more excellent way. There's more excellent gifts and those are the ones that you need to desire

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So he he teaches us about them. They exist. They're there but he's leading us in a different direction or Flowing us

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Flowing in a certain direction with the gifts, right? He's talking about the gifts in order to show them that that The gift isn't the important part

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The important part is them being made in Christ's image that they are being partakers of the divine nature

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Yeah, they are being having Christ formed in them that they're being unified with with their

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God and that means love Um the type of love that would die for somebody right the type of love that is is full and complete

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The type of love that wouldn't fight over spiritual gifts It's really it's really what he's getting at.

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Yeah, you're gonna have something different. Here's a more excellent way than Concentrating on the gifts the gifts are are incidental to what we're what we're really doing here.

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Yeah So let me read let me read a few verses If verse 1 in chapter 13 if I speak with the tongues of men and of angels

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But do not have love I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal if I have the gift of prophecy and know all mysteries and knowledge

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And if I have all faith So as to remove mountains, but do not have love.

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I am nothing And if I have if I give all my possessions to the to feed the poor and if I surrender my body

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To be burned, but do not have love it profits nothing Right there

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Or was it the the Apostles know that well they were the disciples at that point, but they're the folks who are gonna be the

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Apostles They were talking with Jesus, and then they come up to him at one point

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They say hey which one of us is going to be the greatest in the kingdom of God Got it all wrong

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It's kind of the same thing here I've been given a gift.

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I'm going to use it to the best of my ability and now look how great I am

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No No, the gift is in its incidental the gift is just the gift

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What is really important here is that you have the love of Christ in you in every single thing that you engage in if you prophesy

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Do it with love and compassion in your heart not hatred towards somebody else who you think is either wrong or in sin

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They may be wrong and in sin But you don't hate them for it You go to them with a heart of compassion and love you tell them straight.

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You don't sugarcoat it, but you have a sense of fear of God in you as You go that you would love someone that that person was is in sin like you were when you were forgiven

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But you are still being forgiven of your sins as that person needs to have right if you speak in tongues

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Know men and even speak angelic languages It says if you don't have love

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You're just making noise like what's the point of you having this gift that is no doubt flashy

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I'm Incredible, I mean you're watching things that people couldn't do that.

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They're doing it's real supernatural power But if you don't have love in your heart um

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What's the point right? I mean because in verse 4 or chapter 14 it talks about Tongues being assigned for unbelievers

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Can you imagine having the gift of tongues and just running up to people who are? Unbelievers and just babbling in their face like nanner nanner.

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You don't have the love of God So well, yeah, neither. Do you how are you?

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Why are you going to unbelievers and taunting them with the power of the Holy Spirit like that's that's ridiculous

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You're you're just a noisy gong. You're a clanging cymbal. I'm ridiculous Well, it's me the poor yeah good well and to me in verse 1

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I'm trying to think what does that mean and I'm and I'm thinking about chapter 12 and I'm thinking about chapter 14 um

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Speaking in tongues with love versus speaking in tongues without love. What does that mean? What does that look like one chapter 12 and chapter 14?

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These gifts are for the edification of others for the body Yep, and so if I'm speaking in tongues in love

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Then it is I'm edifying the body. It's I'm doing it for the body

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The body is related somehow to what I'm doing, right? And so if I'm doing it apart from the body and edifying the body with those tongues, then it's no longer with love.

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It's selfish Right, right which is why when Peter stood up on the day of Pentecost and and all everyone was prophesying in in different tongues

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When Peter stood up, he's like we're not drunk. We're here to tell you about Christ and He just stood up with love in his heart and gave him the gospel now.

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He didn't pull back He's like Jesus the one you know the Messiah the one that you killed

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He's he's required of you some stuff They're like, oh no, what have we done?

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And they were repented and turned to the gospel, right? He still yeah, he stood up with love in his heart because that gift of tongues was used to bring up people to Christ It was it was used in a proper way.

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It was used with love And that's what he's getting at here if you're going to have

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The congregation in mind if you're gonna have the church in mind, then you're gonna have love in your heart

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You're going to be seeking of if I'm able to preach and and teach people

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Then I had better Not do so heavy -handedly I have the opportunity to preach in Let's see eight days from the time of this recording at a church where I'm Nervous to do it because I don't

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I don't know the spiritual state of these people There's a chance that there's gonna be a largely unbelieving group there

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If I were to come in guns a -blazing and just say you sinner this you sinner that how dare you this?

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How dare you that that's not No contempt in my heart. What what's the point?

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Yeah. Oh, no. I need I need to pray I need to have compassion. I need to know these people are being deceived by the devil himself and the only

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Solution to this is the power of God to change their heart Right is the love of God that he has shown me when

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I was so far gone and deceived in sin Yeah, so it yeah that that's what he's getting at here.

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Yeah, that's why this is not a marriage passage Yeah, although it can be applied to marriage.

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Sure. Yeah, it's not a marriage passage Chapter 13 is a spiritual guest passage.

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That's right, and and I don't want to jump too far ahead But um, if you really think about what's going on here and what

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Paul is saying and what the direction that Paul is taking us The gifts are not for me therefore

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Someone else Right. I go ahead and read verses 4 through 7 that kind of brings that out.

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Yeah Right before the good stuff Okay, love is love is patient Love is kind and is not jealous.

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Love does not brag and is not arrogant does not act Unbecomingly does not seek its own is not provoked does not take into account a wrong suffered

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Does not rejoice in unrighteousness But rejoices with the truth bears all things believes all things hopes all things endures all things

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Love never fails Okay, yeah, we'll start right there. So someone else has to be present

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Someone else has to be present for these gifts to be a benefit And so that's why I think and this is why

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I didn't want to jump too far ahead That's why I think when you get over to chapter 14 And Paul's talking about if you if you speak

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Speaking tongues and nobody understands you you're you're only speaking to God and you're only edified yourself.

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He's not saying that as a good thing Right, he's what he's saying is it is a good thing

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But it's only a good thing for the one who's speaking tongues It's it doesn't benefit the church unless someone's there to interpret, right?

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And that's what this whole thing has been about is being a benefit to somebody else right, right because We all we all need each other.

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Mm -hmm. There's a purpose there for each one of these gifts That purpose is

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I Think it's different for the different gifts Some of them more long -term than others, which is what really where the cessation is continuationist debate gets into we should have

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Large agreement so far with our continuationist brothers up until this point Maybe even beyond it for a little bit

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Probably beyond it for a little bit but Yeah yeah, well the purpose is to show because really the whole book of Corinthians is about showing these people who are just really really immature in the faith

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How they can actually grow up in the Lord, you know, I mean this they started off fighting over the silliest stuff

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I I Like this guy, I like that teacher. Well, I only like Jesus like guys get over it stop

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Stop suing each other Quit doing weird stuff the pagans don't even do right, right

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Remember who your spouse is love your spouse. Don't fight. Don't use sex as a weapon

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Like quick quick quick don't look at the look at what these the Israelites did they did all sorts of crazy stuff

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No, don't be like them. You're being like them. Don't do that Yeah Well, and that's why we can

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Take the book of Corinthians and we can say look We can take principle in 2000

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What whatever your you listen or watch this and we can take principles from Corinthians But we can also understand that Paul was writing to a specific church and so when you you you were bringing up first Corinthians 7 and and not abusing

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Your marriage relationship your sexual relationship, but also within that chapter 7 he's talking about there's gonna come a time when you're gonna wish that you you were not pregnant and You you were not nursing

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Right, it'd be easier for you If you were single because you wouldn't have to worry about the things of the world, right?

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Exactly. And so there's there's this time coming and and Preterists would would see that as this this time coming near Did I did

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I even quote is that even in chapter 7 you you looked at me strange? I don't think that's in this book

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It may not be but uh, I don't think it is but but part of what you're saying is there

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Yeah, because what he's saying he's saying is that it's it's easier to be

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Concentrating on the things of God if you don't have to worry about the things of the world, right? I don't think he he brings up the rest of that's from one of the

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Gospels Jesus it's it's different. So my apologies. It's it's the same.

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I didn't even look at you like that my face did that No, it helped me out.

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It corrected me So my apologies for that, but it's it's the same concept, you know

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It's like Dan was talking about in in chapter 7, you know I would he does say I wish you were all more like me which we interpret that to be single because There's this time right now

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You're in this period of time In the Corinthian Church, they were in this period of time where you had this spike and no we don't deny

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You know continuationists want to say that the Holy Spirit was working before the cross.

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We don't deny that The Holy Spirit's working after the cross. We don't deny that but they there was this transition and There were certain things that the

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Corinthian Church that the Ephesian Church the Galatian Church they all needed to hear specifically because they were in this transitional period between the old and the new and the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple coming up that was specific to them and So when we're reading 1st

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Corinthians, there's things that are specific to Corinthians And there's principles that we can pull out as as the body and we want to be careful not to mix the two

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Sure, sorry for that tangent

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So we just read that that section love is patient love is kind love is not jealous it does not brag it's not puffed up Doesn't seek its own

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All of this is is a love that that we see echoed in and 1st

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John Where it tells us God is love And so and when

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God is love Christ Came He came in order to bring that love to us and he came and bring that love to us by sending his son by Going to the cross he went to the cross to Take the sins of the people like these

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Corinthians who were just steeped in the sin of their culture I'd say a lot like the

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American churches Steeped in the sin of their culture and Needed to be forgiven need to have that sin taken away because if not it will destroy them destroys us

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So Jesus came to show love and that he took upon himself the sins of men

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Took it upon himself went to the cross and died in our place laid in the in the grave got up three days later

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Give us eternal life and gave us eternal life. He sits on the right hand of the father You know interceding still loving us after even after providing for a salvation interceding for us

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He didn't just let us go during this time To show us this the same love and is this is the love that he wants the

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Corinthians to show this the same love that Would go and die for someone whereas in verse

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Three and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love it profits me nothing

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Jesus surrendered his body to be beaten and torn apart on the cross, but he didn't do it in order to Gain something for himself now.

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He did he gained a lot, but that's not why he did it He did it in order to Glorify the father and to save us from our sins

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That's the love That we're being pointed to that's that's that's the love that's being mentioned here in first Corinthians 13

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That's why he's trying to saying your gifts are great and grand But if your gifts don't lead you back to the one who died for your sins, you've missed the whole point

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That's right. And that's the point of Corinthians here. Yep, if they continue in that direction

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They're going to be off in a ditch focusing on the gifts focusing on their sin and Just going haywire he is trying to mature them and grow them because ultimately these things are for pointing to the cross pointing to Christ and and Saving the world.

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Yep Amen. Amen. Well, thank you for that Thank you for sharing the gospel

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And if you do not know Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior We would urge you to repent of your sins, but your faith and trust in him today and be a part of this family of Love In what it's supposed to be

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Let's let's pray together Father we thank you for this this other episode that we we've done and we pray and ask that you continue to help us to not read into put into Your word what we wanted to say, but here

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What you were inspiring and directing Paul to teach the Corinthians and also

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Teaching to us and we pray these things in Jesus name. Amen Thank you again everybody for watching.

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We really appreciate it. We hope to see you real soon and Always remember that Jesus is