February 5, 2018 Show with Interviews from the 2018 G3 Conference Part 2: Ed Moore, Voddie Baucham, John Crotts, AND Jared Longshore

Iron Sharpens Iron

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arnton. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this fifth day of February 2017 and I hope you are going to enjoy hearing some more of the on -site interviews

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I conducted while at the G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia and the very first one

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I'm going to air today is with a very dear friend of mine that I've known going back to the early 1990s.

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I got to know him immediately after he had become the pastor of North Shore Baptist Church in Bayside, Queens, New York, having moved from Columbia, South Carolina where he was on the pastoral team at Three Rivers Baptist Church along with another friend of mine,

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Gary Scott, who was the senior pastor over Ed and my friend Ed Moore is who

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I'm speaking of. What a joy it was to see him at this conference. I hardly ever get to see him anymore, his schedule is so busy and he still lives in New York and I live in Pennsylvania, so it was a joy to see him and his son

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Parker at the G3 conference and here is my interview with Pastor Ed Moore of the

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North Shore Baptist Church of Bayside, Queens, New York. I hope you enjoy it just as much as I did.

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This is Chris Orensen again on site at the G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia and I have with me right now a very dear friend going back to the early 1990s,

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Pastor Ed Moore of North Shore Baptist Church in Bayside, Queens, New York. I became a friend of his shortly after his arriving in Queens after having served on the ministry team at Three Rivers Baptist Church in Columbia, South Carolina and I was one of the first friends that he had after relocating.

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It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio, Pastor Ed Moore. Amen and it is a great joy to see you again

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Chris and to be with you. I think the first time that we ever spoke was December 31st, 1992 and at the time you were putting together a radio show for WMCA and it consisted of Doctrines of Grace pastors and the

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Voice of Sovereign Grace and I was honored to be a part of that. By the way, why do you have an accent that you've never spoken with before?

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You're speaking in a very strange way. Well, I'm running from the IRS. Well, tell our listeners about North Shore Baptist Church in Bayside.

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Okay, well it was started in 1933 and there was a pastor who served there from 1939 until 1992.

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He died in 1977 but he served until 1992.

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He was a great man of God. His name was James King. He was from Scotland and back before anybody else was doing it, he was preaching through the

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Bible chapter by chapter, verse by verse, going through four books of the

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Bible at a time. Sunday school, Sunday morning, Sunday night and Wednesday night and the people from that day tell me that you could tell no difference between his

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Sunday school class and his Sunday morning service or any of the other ones. It was always just the straight word of God, rich and pure.

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And then there was a lull for a few years at North Shore Baptist Church with some various pastors who served the

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Lord faithfully. And then I arrived in 1992 and so I've been there a little over 25 years.

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And I just want to say thank you to you, Chris, because in coming to New York I didn't know what kind of influence

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I would see for the doctrines of grace in Queens and Long Island. And you are always a great champion of the truth and did everything you could to promote our church and to promote the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ.

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So our church has had the privilege of planting a few churches. One of them is out in Long Island, Pastor Caleb Bunch with Redeeming Grace Fellowship and a couple of other small churches that we've planted in New Jersey and Queens.

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Yeah, I'm actually the one who found Caleb the building that there and the

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Massapequa Church of God. With your good friend Jim Capo. Yeah, they're working together now, which has been a great blessing for both of them, as I understand.

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So I'm very thankful for North Shore Baptist Church. We remain a relatively small church and I'm thankful that we do.

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Thankfully, we have a very small building which prompts us from time to time to go out and to plant other churches.

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And that has been a larger blessing than actually growing a large church in one spot.

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Yeah, this is the reverse of the philosophy of most evangelical churches, it seems.

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We have about 200 members and honestly, and I'm not saying this to be humble and I'm certainly not saying it to be funny,

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I do not do a good job caring for and knowing about and keeping up with the 200 members that we do have.

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I don't see how we could take on many more. I'm thankful for each of them, but at least for my skill level and I thank

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God for the other four elders that we have at the church. But we are packed with 200 members in keeping up with them.

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We do not do a good enough job with them. I don't see how we could have many more.

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And I don't know, I'm not being critical of mega churches, but I don't see how they are actually caring for the people or how you would even do something like fencing the

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Lord's table or having meaningful church membership or exercising church discipline when there are multiple thousands of people, some of which you don't even know their names.

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Yeah, you would have to have a lot of elders to adequately perform that duty.

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In fact, I can still remember I had a client, an advertising client on my radio show and I asked this individual who was a member of a very large well -known church in Manhattan about the pastor there who was, he is now with the

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Lord, but he was a very globally known figure. And I said, so how is this pastor so -and -so as a person?

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You know, I've never met him. Just was curious, how is he as a person? And this member of that church said, oh,

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I've never met him. And I just thought that that was bizarre that you would be a member of a church and you've never met the shepherd, the key shepherd of that.

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Yeah, and that's odd because I found Cardinal O 'Connor to be very personable. That was not who

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I was referring to. Okay, I know. Well, tell us how the people, by God's grace, in the

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New York City area, and when I was growing up, New York City was exclusively Manhattan, but I know that people refer to Queens and Brooklyn and the

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Bronx and Staten Island as New York City, and you're in Queens. But how are the folks, by God's grace, responding to the doctrines of sovereign grace, which is a rarity in Manhattan?

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I'm still puzzled by that, why there aren't many more thoroughly reformed, solid doctrines of grace churches, especially in Manhattan.

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I mean, I only know maybe one or two. But in your personal experience in Queens, what is the response been?

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Yeah, it's interesting. I started my career in the ministry. I guess career is not the right word.

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I started in the ministry in 1984, having been saved at age 16, and then just completing the

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University of Georgia in 1984, and coming to the doctrines of grace and working in a church in suburban

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Atlanta. And in those days, you really could not identify yourself.

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And I was in a church that was in the Southern Baptist Convention. You could not identify yourself as believing those things.

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You had to speak in code, and you had to use euphemisms to identify who you were.

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You could not have had a gathering like G3. I don't think that there were this many people that would embrace these doctrines in North America.

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I don't think that there were. So much has happened over the past 35 years.

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But when I got to New York City, I found that the attitude of people was actually a lot warmer toward these things than it was in the

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South in those days. And I don't know why. One reason might be because I think that when a newly saved person is saved, and you open the scripture to them, and they don't have any preconceived baggage that they picked up from a decisionalistic, revivalistic, largely

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Arminian numbers -driven background. If they're just coming to the Lord fresh from hell, and you point them to John 6 .44,

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or Romans chapter 9, or the end of Romans chapter 8, there really isn't that much of a struggle with it.

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They see it. They embrace it. They love it because they know that they themselves have been sovereignly called, and that they were not looking for the

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Lord, but the Lord found them. And so I think for the most part, there was more of an openness to it in that area in my limited experience.

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So I haven't seen much resistance or pushback, at least from people in New York.

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And one other interesting thing which in the long run, it ended up being a very destructive force.

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But at the time, and I'm sure you can remember this, Chris, one of the reasons why some of the people in New York were at least willing to embrace the doctrines of grace was because of the ministry of Family Radio and Harold Camping.

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Now, I mean, the Kool -Aid drinkers that bought the whole package went on to do great harm to the cause of Christ and to the church.

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But he was a voice back in the day that was very outspoken for the doctrines of grace, which at least opened the door for conversations that I found to be very, very, very positive.

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I mean, I want to be clear, I don't miss him. I don't want to have him come back.

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But you know what I'm saying when I say that he was at least outspoken about the doctrines of grace such that conversations would be available to us.

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And the station itself was a treasure trove of churches from all over the

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United States that were solidly reformed, especially on the Echoes program, which started off as Conference Echoes and then it just became

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Echoes. And I actually got a number of your sermons on that station, especially the one centered,

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Where Are You? Yes. And as a result, people came to our church. That was back in 1993.

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People came to our church who are still in our church today as a result of our little church being on Conference Echoes.

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So much good was done through family radio before things began to decline.

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Now, do you have any counsel, advice for churches desirous of planting a church in an inner city, especially because that is what your current experience is?

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Any things that they should avoid? Any things that they should very vigorously and aggressively do that you might want to suggest?

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I could tell you so much about what not to do because of all of our failures and some of the things that we tried, which just didn't work.

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I think one of the myths that—and I appreciated so much the message that Tim gave this afternoon about the multicultural dimension of the church and how we are called to love one another.

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That's a myth? No, no, no, no. The reading of Revelation 5, it was electrifying.

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It was God -glorifying. But what you will hear so often is, well, if you reach

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New York City, you reach the world. And I think the truth of the matter is if you reach

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New York City, you reach New York City because these people are not going back.

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They are here. And so don't view it as world missions.

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View it as reaching the people who are right in front of you. And another thing

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I would say, and I hope this doesn't sound carnal, but this is just an observation that I have seen played out so many times and I know that you have as well, is that there's a lot of gimmicks.

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There's a lot of games. There's a lot of dog and pony show stuff that's going on.

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And a lot of really sharp people that are putting a lot of great graphics together and a lot of studies and a lot of demographic statistics that are coming at you and people are more likely to do this if you meet at this time or whatever.

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But I think the bottom line is this, if you have someone who actually is a gifted communicator of the scriptures and will faithfully proclaim the word of God, that is your greatest asset.

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There are many other things that need to happen, but I think that that is the most important thing.

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And I think what is happening is many people are trying to plant churches with men who maybe have not been as seasoned as they need to be in the proclamation of the word and haven't been trained in preaching.

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One of the things that I've seen coming out of seminaries is this, is that the guys coming out of seminary, they're good men, they're godly, they're willing.

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I admire them so much, but they have been trained how to preach in the seminary rather than being trained in the local church.

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And I think what is happening is those who are training preachers in the seminaries, men who are not preachers themselves,

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I kind of go with the Woody Allen philosophy of preaching, those who can do, those who can't teach, and those who can't teach, teach physical education, that guys are teaching in the seminaries who are not preachers themselves.

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And so guys are coming out with a lot of knowledge, but not the proper training.

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And I think that that training needs to come in and through the local church, and that's not happening.

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And so men are being sent to the Northeast who are very willing, but yet have not been properly trained how to preach, and they're scratching their heads as to why the churches are not growing.

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I just think my advice, I mean this is a long answer to a short question, I think the answer is that men need to be trained to preach, and I think the rest of it will take care of itself if we're faithful to the scriptures.

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Now trained to be good preachers in the local church, do you think that the homiletics classes and seminaries is failing, or where do you where do you envision this taking place?

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I don't think that you have an atmosphere in the classroom, in the seminary, which is actually going to be realistic and helpful.

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I think there are some things that you can learn, but I think if when you are standing in front of a union electrician, and you're standing in front of a school teacher, and you're standing in front of a single mom, and you're standing in front of someone who's just gone through a divorce, and you're standing in front of someone who's going through depression, and you're standing in of a 12 year old boy, and it's like a real church with like real people and real problems, and you're looking at them, it is a better training ground for preaching the word than it is sitting in a room with desks around other seminary students who are critiquing how you parse this verb.

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And don't get me wrong, we should parse the verbs correctly, we should be accurate, but I think that preaching in the context of the local church and getting feedback from godly elders and from congregants who are the real people that you're going to be preaching to,

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I think that's where you learn how to preach. Now I just want to tell you very quickly my favorite

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Woody Allen joke, since you brought up Woody Allen. This is from his old stand -up days in the 60s,

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I think it might have been from the Ed Sullivan show, but he's standing there admiring his watch, and he pauses in silence for a few moments to just look at it, and he says, my grandfather on his deathbed sold me this watch.

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But anyway, going back to the discussion, one thing that I have heard some of our fundamentalist friends say about reformed people, not all reformed people, or should

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I say not all reformed pastors and preachers, but they will say it is far too common among us for pastors to not be preachers but to be lecturers.

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How do you respond to that, and what is the difference between somebody getting up behind a pulpit and merely teaching and somebody who is preaching?

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What is the difference? Well, I'm the least charismatic person that you will ever meet, both in terms of charisma and my understanding of the gifts.

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I am a militant cessationist, but I would answer the question by saying the

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Holy Spirit. There are those like Martin Lloyd -Jones who, just if you based it on speaking style, is like watching paint dry.

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But if you add the Holy Spirit to what he was saying, it really didn't matter how he presented it.

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It was, as they say, logic on fire. And you have other people who have great charisma, pace around the pulpit, are very animated, have electrifying illustrations, but the absence of the

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Holy Spirit will leave you empty, even though there's great charisma, regardless of what their theological leanings are.

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And so I've seen brothers, and I would disagree with them, but I've filled with the

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Holy Spirit. And when they would stand to preach, my heart was pricked. And I've seen brothers that I agree with, and I agree with every word that they're saying.

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I couldn't disagree with a syllable, but yet it did sound like a lecture.

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It did sound like someone was reading a book. So I think that the difference is the power of the

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Holy Spirit. And that's why I admire that anecdotal story of Spurgeon so much, as he would walk up the steps to his pulpit, as each foot would land on a step, he would say,

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I believe in the Holy Ghost, I believe in the Holy Ghost, I believe in the Holy Ghost. I think that makes the difference.

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Now I've heard you preach a number of times, although it's been a long time since I've heard you preach.

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One of the things that was always interesting to me is that you are an extremely humorous person, in fact, probably the funniest person

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I have ever met in my life. And yet, every time you ascended into the pulpit, you might have said a couple of funny things in the very introductions or something, but you did not have an ongoing comedy routine or anything like that throughout the sermons.

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I mean, it was most of the time absent when you entered into that pulpit. Do you think that that is something that's important to divide those two things?

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I would not want to challenge the conscience of one who would say that to bring humor into a sermon, that they just are convicted that it is wrong.

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Like if I knew that and I was in that person's church, then I would honor that.

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At the same time, I would say that those who think that it is a necessity and that you're called to get people's attention and humor is one of the ways that you do it, and therefore you need to be all things to all men,

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I wouldn't take that either. I mean, when you look at how the

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Lord used Spurgeon, and there's usually something in all of his sermons that's just hilarious.

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Here, I'll give you one quick Spurgeon story, and I'm sure your listeners have heard it before, but it bears repeating.

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He had gone to a small church to preach, and they didn't even have an offering plate. And so he passed his hat, and his hat came back empty.

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There was no money in it for the offering, and he said, let's pray.

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And he said, dear Lord, I just want to thank you that these cheap people didn't steal my hat.

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That is a verifiable Spurgeon story. I don't know. I'll have to ask

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Phil Johnson later. But I don't see a problem with it.

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I myself am distracted when at a critical juncture of the sermon, something is said that is intentionally funny, especially to take the gravity out of pressing home the holiness of God, or to press home the seriousness of sin, or to distract from the substitution of Christ, or to distract from the need for holiness.

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But I think in all communication, there are different things that we use that the

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Lord has given to us. But I will say this. I am filled with enough pride, and there is enough sin in my heart that there are times when

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I will attempt for selfish reasons to be funny, not for the benefit of the listener, but so that I might appear to be funny.

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And I think that's where the rebuke is needed, and that's where repentance is needed.

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And so for the most part, I don't want to be somebody different in the pulpit than I am when

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I am not in the pulpit. But I think for the most part, I'm pretty much all business there.

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And if I thought that humor would be effective in communicating the gospel, I'm not opposed to using it.

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But laughs for laugh's sake, I think I need to get away from that, as do all preachers.

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I'm sorry, were you saying something? And of course, this is in the pulpit, so I get to do that.

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Can you tell us your thoughts? You know, a lot of times when you hear

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Reformed folks, not that there's a lot of Reformed broadcasts or programs, a lot more than there used to be, but when you hear

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Reformed folks get together, it is most often, it seems to me, pointing out the errors of what everyone else is doing and mainstream evangelicalism and so on.

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But what can you say as a word of warning to Reformed listeners, to Reformed pastors, to Reformed average

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Joe American Christian? Thank you so much for asking that question. I was raised in an

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Arminian home in a Christian missionary alliance church in western Pennsylvania. To this day, they are the godliest people that I've ever met in my life, and they would not have believed the doctrines of grace.

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In fact, they would not have known what they were, but they were people who passionately loved

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Jesus Christ. When I was in college at the University of Georgia, I was in a literature class, and a man who was an atheist who was teaching

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American literature said, you cannot understand American literature without understanding Jonathan Edwards, and you can't understanding

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Jonathan Edwards without understanding Calvinism. And so he wrote TULIP on the board and said, we're going to have a quiz on this tomorrow.

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And I raised my hand as the one evangelical Christian in the room, and I said,

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I need to speak up for my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and I need to let you know, I don't know who this

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Edwards fellow is, but he's an idiot, and this is not what the Bible teaches. And I was really opposed to the doctrines of grace.

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And then the Lord opened my eyes through my daily devotions when I was going through the book of Romans, and I came to embrace each of these points.

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And although that is still my understanding today, and it has not changed at all,

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I'm very ashamed of the way that I behaved for many years with respect to how

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I was in the cage stage, and that I was so critical of others.

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The same way that you were when you were on a miniature. Absolutely, yes. Once a jerk, always a jerk.

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But the fact of the matter is I'm very ashamed of the way that I didn't embrace the evangelical community.

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And I'm not talking about an ecumenical spirit where we are throwing doctrine out, but what

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I am saying is, if someone is a believer in Christ, and if someone is my brother, and if someone is going to be in heaven with me, and if someone was bought with the same blood that I am, we can disagree.

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But I believe we need to disagree in an agreeable way. By this all men will know that you're my disciples if you have love for one another.

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And so I would say, believe these doctrines, preach these doctrines, proclaim them unashamedly.

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But at the same time, if I have not love, I am nothing.

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And I think that there's a lot of arrogance, at least there was on my part, that went into understanding these things and then finding fault with those who did not.

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So my advice to the one who is new in the doctrines of grace, or one who's been in the doctrines of grace for a long time and yet is very arrogant in it, to repent of that and to let love, which is the greatest, let love rule.

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And to speak the truth in love. Now the thing that's interesting about that is that there are obviously people who act like idiots from all theological persuasions,

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Pentecostals, Charismatics, Arminians, Roman Catholics, you could go on and on and on. Do you remember the debate from May of 1997 in my church with Dr.

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James White and his opponent? Yes. And Dr. White was so gracious that evening. But do you remember, regardless of what you believe, do you remember how cruel the other gentleman was and how demeaning he was toward us?

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Right, I don't want you to mention names, but there were actually two debates in your church. I have to keep in mind,

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I keep remembering my friend, Pastor Bill Shishko, whenever I say your church or my church, he always says, it's the

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Lord Jesus Christ. But North Shore Baptist Church, there were two debates that James White had there where both men were very obnoxious and insulting.

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But in fact, I can remember one man who was from a Church of Christ background.

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He said, and I'm paraphrasing, he said, well, James White's teaching that God has this rig before the foundations of the world.

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Well, how can God find fault with us? Because according to James White, who could resist his will?

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James said, are you aware that you almost word for word quoted what

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Paul predicted the opponents of the doctrines of grace would say in Romans 9?

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Exactly. And then everybody laughed and he was wondering why everybody laughed. But anyway. Would you remember his other opponent when

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James White had baffled him and he was frustrated and he responded by saying,

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I reckon I'm going to kill you. Yes, that is referring to an edited version of that debate where the

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Slingblade movie soundtrack was combined with the debate. In fact, I need to get a copy of that tape.

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But the thing that's interesting, though, even though these bigots who are very coarse and mocking and juvenile in the way that they often behave toward others that disagree, although that's true, we who are professing to be

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Calvinists or believers in the doctrines of sovereign grace, we are most accountable for acting that way because our theology teaches us that we are to be humble knowing that all things come from the grace of God.

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Amen. And let me tell you the greatest example that I've ever seen of that. And that is

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Pastor Gary Scott, a brilliant man, committed five point

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Calvinist. I think Gary Scott read the

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Bible through. It was something like half a dozen times a year.

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The guy was really. Yes. Yes. Very well versed in the scriptures, more so maybe than anyone that I've ever met.

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Yet at the same time, I don't know that I've ever met a more gracious man, one who the doctrines of grace were gracious.

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You were attracted to what he had to say because he himself was so Christlike and so loving.

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Somebody on that level who is not a full blown five point Calvinist, but lately it's been hard for me to disagree with him on much of anything.

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But Pastor Vinny Sawyer, he is one of the most gracious and humble people from a hardline fundamentalist background, but not imitating some of the foolish and juvenile and nasty and hateful way that many in that camp will behave.

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The first month and a half that I was in New York back in 1992, Vinny Sawyer took me out to eat at a diner.

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And of course, with so few Baptist churches being in Queens, everybody knows everybody.

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In a quarter century, I have never heard a bad word about Vinny Sawyer from anyone, nor had an encounter with him myself that was anything less than gracious.

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He's ministering in Florida now. I just had a recent interview with him. The only thing that, or should

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I say, the most frequent thing that pops into my head when I speak with him or interview him is the way that Spurgeon referred to John Bunyan.

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He said, and I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the quote in front of me, but his blood is bibline. You prick him anywhere and the

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Bible oozes out. That's the same thing with Vinny Sawyer. Amen. Amen. Yes. And do you have any special events, conferences or anything coming up in the

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North Shore Baptist Church in Bayside, Queens that our listeners should know about? Thank you. Okay. So on Saturday, March 17th, which is

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St. Patrick's Day, we are having the O 'Parenting Seminar from 9 to 3 p .m.

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Pastor Brian Davis from the Risen Christ Fellowship in Philadelphia is going to be with us that day for a parenting seminar.

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And that is Saturday, the 17th of March, St. Patrick's Day Parenting Seminar at North Shore Baptist Church.

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And for information on that, you could call our church office at 718 -229 -7223 or look on our website, which is ns -bc .org.

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So we would love to have people join us for that. Well, I would love to interview him before the conference to help give it extra promotion.

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Very good. Thank you. And you would be well edified to speak with him. He's a dear brother. Amen. Well, what is the website of North Shore Baptist Church?

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ns -bc .org. ns -bc .org.

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And your church will always hold a very special place in my heart. All the fun that we've had together, all the learning that we've had together, the experiences and the debates that Dr.

37:59

White conducted there and conferences and as well as many other things has occurred in our trips together to the

38:06

Bunyan Conference. I hope that we have many more opportunities for fellowship and even interviews in the future awaiting us.

38:15

Well, amen. And I hope so as well. And I want to thank you for being a champion for the truth over the last quarter century and for being such a good friend to me and a good friend to our church.

38:26

And I know that your listeners know that it is your desire in life to promote the truth.

38:32

So I thank you for this great privilege that it's been to speak for a few moments today. Amen. And say hello to your lovely wife,

38:38

Anna. Thank you. And believe it or not, ladies and gentlemen, our guest today, Ed Moore, has two sons, one named

38:46

Parker, one named Charlie, and he had never heard of the saxophonist genius

38:52

Charlie Parker before giving them that name. Those names. Every blind squirrel finds an acorn.

39:01

Well, it's great to have you on and God bless you, bro. Thank you. God bless you. Well, I hope you enjoyed that.

39:07

And we're going to our first commercial break right now. And we are obviously not taking questions today because our guests are from pre -recorded interviews that were conducted on site at the recent

39:21

G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia. Hence the background chatter, because there were thousands of people milling around as we were conducting those interviews.

39:31

But don't go away. We'll be back with more interviews right after these messages. And I hope that you enjoy them just as much as I did.

39:46

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Iron Sharpens today. Welcome back and now we are going to hear an interview that I had been waiting for for a long time, my interview with world -renowned preacher, teacher, and author

41:09

Vody Baucom. Hope you enjoy it. This is Chris Arnsen again on site at the

41:15

G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia. And my prayers have been answered because I finally, after many attempts,

41:23

I finally have Vody Baucom as a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio for the very first time.

41:29

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Vody Baucom. Thank you very much.

41:35

And Vody, I know that you have relocated from the United States to minister with my friend since 1995,

41:43

Dr. Conrad Mbewe, who has been a guest on this program a number of times and also preached at the church where I was formerly a member on Long Island Grace Reformed Baptist Church, where I actually was saved.

41:56

Conrad preached for us during his first American visit in 1995, and we have developed a friendship and been in contact ever since.

42:05

But tell us exactly what compelled you to uproot your family and leave

42:10

America to live in Zambia and work with the Kabwatha Baptist Church and the seminary and the school that's connected with it.

42:20

Yeah, well, I had the privilege of going to Zambia in 2006 and preaching at their annual reformed conference.

42:28

When I came back, my wife asked me how the trip was, and my response was,

42:33

I think I want to be buried there. And I went back almost every year after that.

42:39

And it was in 2014 at the university,

42:45

African Christian University had been a dream for a long time and in the planning process for a long time.

42:52

But it was during a trip in 2014 where my wife and I and our seven youngest children went to Kenya, to Zambia in South Africa that my wife really sensed that same calling.

43:06

And at that point, you know, we both just realized that this was something that the

43:13

Lord was leading us to do. And we brought it before my fellow elders.

43:19

And within a year, we were on the ground in Zambia, helping to start

43:25

African Christian University. And Reformed Baptist of Zambia had this dream and this vision.

43:32

It's now become a reality. And it's been incredible to be a part of it on the ground. Oh, praise

43:38

God. Well, what I typically do when I have a first time guest is I have them give a summary of their salvation testimony of what kind of religious atmosphere they were raised in, if any, and how the

43:49

Lord providentially drew you to himself saved you and then how you also came to embrace

43:55

Reformed theology. Yeah, for me, I was born and raised in Los Angeles, California, and drug infested, gang infested

44:04

South Central LA, raised by a single teenage Buddhist mother. I never heard the gospel to my first year university.

44:12

And it was at that time that I came to understand my sinfulness and understand my need for a savior.

44:24

And so it was then that I placed my faith in Christ. And it was November of 1987.

44:31

And as far as embracing Reformed theology, it was the way

44:38

I put it is it wasn't something I really embraced as much as it was something that I came to realize

44:44

I believed. Because it wasn't like I was coming from another, you know, firm theological stance.

44:52

But I started preaching when I was in college. And, you know, went to seminary after that, was introduced to the ideas of Calvinistic doctrine,

45:05

Reformed doctrine, at Southern Baptist seminary, in a very negative way.

45:12

And I remember, you know, being introduced, for example, to the tulip. And I'm thinking,

45:19

T, yeah, you absolutely L, I, sure, P. But of course, after all of this stuff was, you know, you know, thoroughly castigated by the professor,

45:30

I thought, well, that's because I'm relatively new. Certainly as I mature, you know,

45:36

I won't be so positive towards these obviously heretical ideas. The only thing that changed is

45:42

I lost my problem with limited atonement, you know. And then from there, you know, began to recognize the implications of, you know, my understanding as it related to my broader theology, and eventually found the

45:59

Second London Baptist Confession. And it was like coming home, you know.

46:05

And so, you know, that brought me to a more full of understanding of what it meant to be Reformed, and not just Calvinistic.

46:12

Amen. And I've been asking different folks that have been speaking here, because of the fact that very often when we are involved in the media, like a radio show, or a

46:24

TV show or something, if we're Reformed, sometimes we have a habit of only dwelling on the problems that exist outside of our own community.

46:33

And I was just wondering, perhaps, if you have any word of warning to our fellow

46:38

Reformed Brethren about some things, some things that you see developing amongst us that make you feel uncomfortable, that you think have departed from a biblical example?

46:48

Anything at all that you have noticed that you want to talk about? I think one thing that's bothered me for a long time about my fellow

46:56

Reformed Brethren is a lack of fervor and manifested passion for church planting.

47:05

You know, we always have to make sure that we're fighting for that center, right?

47:11

That we're holding firmly to the trustworthy word is taught. But there is also this mandate to expand, to reach out, to grow, to plant, to reproduce.

47:28

And what I've noticed is that this fervor and this passion for the center, amen, hallelujah, praise the

47:36

Lord, but it is not, just in my opinion, in my observation, it is not matched when it comes to a fervor and passion for evangelism, missions, and church planting.

47:52

And that worries me. And it worries me for two reasons. One, because obviously my desire is to see the kingdom expand, amen?

48:00

But it also worries me because a lot of the things that we then began to fight against, and a lot of the camps that we began to point at, look back at us and essentially say, where's your passion for the lost, right?

48:20

You guys want to major on minors, where's your passion for, you know, and not that that, you know, negates any argument that we're making, but my philosophy is don't give them a stick to hit you with, especially a legitimate one, you know?

48:37

Yeah, and sometimes, all too often, the stereotype that we are more interested in converting

48:43

Arminians to Calvinism than we are seeing the lost come to Christ to be saved. Yeah. Do you have any new books in the works that you're working on?

48:52

I do. I do. A few, actually. But, you know, we'll see.

49:00

You'd rather wait until they're more developed? Yeah, yeah. There has been interesting things that I've witnessed, even amongst friends, whenever there is something that is on the news that is demonstrating the tension and the divide, and, in fact, the bitterness that exists between blacks and whites, and even in the church.

49:26

And sometimes you have made bold stances about things that even some of our brothers in Christ who are black, brothers and sisters in Christ, have been taken aback and upset by some of the things that you have said.

49:40

Do you think that sometimes people are becoming more concerned about being sensitive about offending one's feelings than they are about doctrinal issues that actually have eternal consequences?

49:58

I think that's always true, you know, for one. That's always the case. But what really concerns me about a lot of these things is that not so much that there's disagreement, but the idea that people are disqualifying one another from the discussion, right?

50:22

Disagreement on certain things is just not allowed. If you are disagreeing with certain things, then you are no longer worth hearing.

50:33

You just don't get it, you know? That's what worries me.

50:39

What worries me is that we can't have just collegial, ironic, and passionate disagreements on a lot of the issues surrounding ethnicity in America.

50:54

And to me, that's what's most worse. The idea that people get cut off.

51:01

The idea that people get completely castigated. Because what happens then is we sort of expose a false unity, you know?

51:13

Because if there are things like that that become off limits between you and me, then we really didn't have the unity that we thought we had.

51:22

And now you've got people who are walking on eggshells, afraid to express opinions, because again, they will be completely, you know, thrown aside.

51:37

And these are issues that need to be discussed. These are issues that need to be, you know, teased out.

51:43

These are issues that need to be thought through critically and deeply.

51:49

These are things that we do need to learn from one another. And so it's my hope that that will happen.

51:57

That somehow we will find a way past this kind of impasse that exists right now.

52:03

And that there will be more of a brotherly, collegial, ironic engagement with one another on these things.

52:13

Yeah, I was talking to a brother recently here at the conference that there seems to be such a hypersensitivity over language and parsing words correctly.

52:24

And very often when there is interracial dialogue, you have white people so fearful of saying anything that in any way resembles racism.

52:35

The conversation is very artificial. You have people tiptoeing around things and their words sometimes even come out in a backhanded racist way, because they're trying so hard not to sound racist.

52:49

You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I do. I know what you're saying. The other thing that this is doing, I think, is, and I think the example is in your question, we're flattening this issue out to black people, white people.

53:04

We're not talking about the way that Laotians are treated, Mexicans, or Russians, or whatever, right?

53:12

Ethnic issues in America are black and white, period, full stop. And nothing could be further from the truth.

53:19

We've got people who, if they have a divide of black people and white people in the church, then they pat themselves on the back because now we've achieved diversity when there may be a hundred ethnic groups in their vicinity, you know?

53:37

And so it's almost like other people are disappearing to us. And this is problematic as well.

53:44

You know, the discussion or the theme of this conference that we're at is discipleship.

53:50

If you could perhaps for five minutes, uninterrupted, just summarize what is most burdening your heart that you want to have etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

54:02

I think in the area of discipleship, it's the idea that this is the essence of Christianity.

54:08

I've been talking about 2 Timothy, both of my messages from 2 Timothy, one from chapter one, another from chapter two.

54:14

And this idea that ultimately the gospel is proclaimed in order to call people to, yes, faith in Christ, saving faith in Christ.

54:26

But what does that mean? To call them to discipleship. We're making disciples. And so what we have to do is pour into these individuals, this pattern of sound words, this gospel that brought them to salvation.

54:43

Make sure that they understand this, make sure that their lives are organized around it.

54:49

And then beyond that, make sure that they understand that they are now part of this band of brothers whose duty is to preserve and proclaim this so that we reproduce ourselves.

55:00

So basically, the goal is to make disciple making disciples, right? And I think if you put it in these terms, it's a simplification, but I don't think it's an oversimplification.

55:14

Because ultimately, if you're talking about doing evangelism and doing discipleship and doing missions and doing whatever else, what are we doing?

55:24

We're proclaiming the gospel with a view toward bringing people to discipleship and then equipping them with that gospel with a view toward them knowing how to bring people to discipleship here, there, everywhere.

55:39

So I think for me, it's all about making this a bigger, broader, more fundamental part of the way that we think and talk about Christianity.

55:55

Amen. Do you have any websites or contact information where our listeners can get a hold of perhaps sermon audio or videos of you or in other words, where they can order your books as well?

56:08

Yeah. So votibakum .org is our website. sermonaudio .com slash votibakum is another website.

56:17

Want to learn about ACU? acu -usa .com. And votibakum .org

56:23

would be v -o -d -d -i -e -b -a -u -c -h -a -m .org.

56:29

Correct. Well, it's been such an honor and privilege to have you on the show for the first time. I hope that we could get you on many times in the future.

56:36

And I hope that the Lord opens up those opportunities for us brother. I really enjoyed our conversation. Yeah, it's been my pleasure.

56:42

Glad we finally got to do it. Yes. Well, God bless you. Well, we are now going to our midway break.

56:49

And I hope that you stay tuned because we have more interviews that were conducted on site at the

56:55

G3 conference to come. Don't go away, God willing, we will be right back right after these messages from our sponsors.

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01:07:02

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I have been compelled by my advertisers to make these public appeals. So out of respect for them and out of respect for the hard -earned money that they spend keeping this program on the air,

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I am to God for you. Well, we are going to be listening now to another

01:13:56

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio interview that we conducted on site at the

01:14:03

G3 conference, and this one is with my friend John Kratz. I hope that you enjoy it as much as I did.

01:14:12

This is Chris Arnzen, host of the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio program on site at the

01:14:17

G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia, and this is my very first interview of this conference with John Kratz, who is the pastor of Faith Bible Church in Sharpsburg, Georgia, and it's great to have you back on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor John.

01:14:34

Thank you so much, Chris. It's an honor to be with you. And Pastor John is also the pastor of my most recent former pastor's parents.

01:14:46

When I was living on Long Island, New York, before moving to Carlisle, Pennsylvania, the church where I had been a member since the mid -1980s was

01:14:59

Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island, formerly known as Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, Long Island, and I over the years got to know and become very close friends with John and Dale Grimaldi, and eventually their son became my pastor, and John and Dale Grimaldi are now members of Faith Baptist Church in Sharpsburg.

01:15:21

But it's good to have you back on, Pastor John, and I know that you have a new book that you have recently had published, and tell us about this book.

01:15:30

This is called Graciousness, Tempering the Truth with Love from Reformation Heritage books, and very, very excited about it.

01:15:40

It's kind of autobiographical. I kind of laugh about that, thinking just how passionate

01:15:47

I was for God's truth in those early days, and yet often my expressions of passion cross the line into being kind of obnoxious about it.

01:16:01

No, Calvinists never do that, do they? I've heard of it once or twice, but I was definitely one of those.

01:16:10

In fact, I joke around that in my earliest high school job,

01:16:15

I worked in a Christian bookstore, and I literally would bait customers into conversations just to try to fix them.

01:16:23

I say that to my shame, but... Was most of the books, were most of the books that were available in opposition to your own beliefs, or...?

01:16:36

Oh, sure. Yeah, just like the most Christian bookstores, sadly, had such a mixture of good and bad.

01:16:43

Ours was no different than that. But anyway, I was very...

01:16:50

I meant well, I was well intended, but just had a whole lot of passion, a little bit of truth, but I was committed to it, no matter what.

01:16:59

They've called that cage -stage Calvin. Absolutely. Yes. And it was for me, back in the mid -1980s, by the

01:17:12

Lord's grace that he would help me to learn some of these things. I think we've kind of had this resurgence of Calvinism from about the year 2000 on.

01:17:24

And so the cage -stage, the cages have needed to be a lot bigger. There's a lot more of us to go in them.

01:17:31

Yes, I agree. In fact, it's a very sad commentary on the manner of polemics that Christians are getting involved in these days, especially, it seems, we who are

01:17:44

Reformed. You have one side of the spectrum, which is equally, I think, devastating, that there are probably the majority of evangelicals who don't believe in polemics at all.

01:17:57

And then we have those who are, thankfully and rightfully, very meticulous about theology, but perhaps that can be a very horrible thing when that's combined with arrogance and pride.

01:18:14

Right, right. And I think a lot of people who maybe experience, get a taste of some of that arrogance and pride, their temptation is to react against polemics altogether and basically say, you just need to dial down your passion for truth, because this is causing nothing but problems.

01:18:39

But I think the answer isn't that. We need to maintain our passion for truth, but then elevate the graciousness that goes with it so that we could be like Jesus, full of grace and of truth, and speak

01:18:54

God's truth, but do it in love. Now, was there a specific event or series of events that the

01:19:03

Lord used to humble you and get a reverse in direction in regard to the manner with which you sought to correct those in error?

01:19:13

Well, I'm very thankful that the Holy Spirit used a lot of people, and I think he was just at work helping me to temper it in those early days.

01:19:24

But there was a brother at the Christian bookstore, his name was Don, and he was from a navigator background, and you know, they're big into the scripture memory and scripture cards, and he said, listen,

01:19:36

I'm about to go on vacation, and I've got a scripture for you to memorize and think about while I'm gone.

01:19:42

And it was 2 Timothy 2, 24 through 26. And that's the one where it says the

01:19:49

Lord's bondservant must not be quarrelsome, kind to all, patient, able to teach, correcting with gentleness, those who are in opposition, if perhaps

01:20:00

God may grant repentance from the devil, you know, and being captured by the devil to do his will.

01:20:09

And so I know I'm paraphrasing that. My illustration is that that's what he gave me to memorize, but now

01:20:15

I'm paralyzed. But that's been about 30 years ago. But God used that, that was actually part of the beginning of him helping me to understand that there needs to be a gentleness, a graciousness, a sweetness of speech.

01:20:34

I think graciousness includes this desire to be a blessing to the person you're talking to.

01:20:42

I have to confess again, often I think I was trying to win. I just wanted to win the argument, you know,

01:20:48

I'm right and you're wrong. But that's not the goal. The goal is to be a blessing, to use the truth of God to encourage, to convict, to help other people.

01:21:03

And does your book go through perhaps a series of steps that a

01:21:09

Christian can follow to perhaps improve the manner through which they involve themselves with polemics?

01:21:17

Well, after trying to make a case for the importance of graciousness, and really looking at the life of Christ, the life of Paul, and what

01:21:28

I call the case of the truth -loving church, which is the church of Ephesus there in Revelation 2,

01:21:33

I give a wide assortment of ways to cultivate graciousness, both individually and corporately.

01:21:42

So within the church context, as well as just individually. And these ways we cultivate graciousness, there are a few outward just practical tips, the timing of your conversation, using gracious helper words,

01:22:00

I call them, you know, just, it seems like this is going on, as opposed to saying, this is what's going on.

01:22:06

But for the most part, I really emphasized our hearts. We have to have hearts filled with God's grace, and out of the overflow of what's in our heart is going to come out graciously.

01:22:18

So yes, the second half is not so much steps as much as just an array of helpful ideas to cultivate graciousness.

01:22:28

Now, one thing that a lot of evangelicals, I believe, make the serious mistake on are those that remove from the gospel presentation, the declaration of the gospel, things such as, if you reject

01:22:51

Christ and his gospel, you are damned. The horrible ramifications for those that do not repent and follow

01:23:01

Christ. There are those that make the gospel a one -sided issue where it's just nothing but sweetness, and love, and giving reasons for rejoicing.

01:23:15

But in reality, I think they actually lessen the reason for rejoicing if they're not talking about the condemnation that awaits anyone who rejects the gospel.

01:23:27

Because when you know that you've been rescued from the world of flesh, and the devil, and from damnation, you really have a cause for celebration and rejoicing.

01:23:37

So in their efforts to make things nothing but sweetness, they actually make things less sweet, in my opinion.

01:23:43

What can you say about that? Well, the old saying, you have to hear the bad news before the good news makes sense.

01:23:50

We talk to a lot of people that think, really, why do we even need the gospel?

01:23:57

Why do we even need all of this sweetness if we don't understand our condemnation before the

01:24:02

Lord justly because of our sin? And as the

01:24:09

Lord said himself, that those who don't believe are under God's wrath already.

01:24:15

It just hasn't been fully manifested yet. And so when you think of a child who's maybe playing a little too close to the street and a car is coming, you need to speak firmly and directly.

01:24:31

And you're not trying to win an argument, or just get something off your chest.

01:24:37

You're trying to rescue that child. And I think that that's an element of graciousness as well, that there's a gracious intent even behind we have to say the bad news.

01:24:48

We're not trying to win. We're trying to speak God's truth in a way that would be a help, an ultimate help.

01:24:56

And sometimes that needs to be with firmness. A lot of people will ask, what about Jesus?

01:25:03

What about his dealings with the Pharisees? He calls them a bunch of snakes. How can we say that that's gracious?

01:25:12

And I think a good answer is that Jesus had a gracious intention even behind those straightforward, clear words of reproof.

01:25:23

He spoke them for God's glory, of course, but for the good of the people he was hearing, but also for the crowds that had been influenced by those

01:25:33

Pharisees. So Jesus, Matthew 23 is where it's got all of the woes, woes to the scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites.

01:25:42

But Jesus didn't just wake up having a bad day that day and I'm kind of grumpy. I'm going to get this off my chest.

01:25:50

No, he was absolutely saying what he said for God's glory and for the good of his hearers.

01:25:57

Yes. And it seemed that he had a lot harsher of a rebuke towards those who were religious leaders.

01:26:06

And the circumstances were very unique when he was saying those things.

01:26:12

These were the leaders of a people from which

01:26:17

Jesus came and he came to be the

01:26:24

Messiah that was prophesied by the Hebrew Scriptures and by the prophets of old before him.

01:26:33

And so it's a different story when you have Jesus Christ saying those types of things to the

01:26:39

Pharisees, whitewashed sepulchres, killed with dead men's bones and brood of vipers, hypocrites and so on, than saying that to someone who is in a religion that is completely separate from you.

01:26:56

And you would not necessarily be overly soft on that person, but you might not use the kind of language that you would use towards perhaps somebody that was about to destroy your own church, who was a member of your church, who rose up from amongst you.

01:27:17

There might be a different level of anger in the approach. Right. And I would also say that Jesus didn't lead with that.

01:27:26

That wasn't the first thing he said when he interacted with the Pharisees. That was sort of the culmination of a lot of their hard -heartedness in response to some of the kind words and deeds that Jesus did.

01:27:40

I think that it's very important that we lead with grace. And yes, if someone is hard -hearted, maybe we need to be a little firmer.

01:27:49

The Bible definitely has a place for even a rebuke. But a rebuke, a biblical rebuke, is still going to be a different thing than arguing for the sake of arguing or thinking my anger and intensity is going to show you what's really important and what really matters.

01:28:10

It's like that's not godly communication. And it's interesting how differently the

01:28:17

Apostle Paul approached the Judaizers than he approached those in Mars Hill.

01:28:27

It's a completely different approach even though both involved people who had false religions.

01:28:34

Yes. The Judaizers certainly had a whole lot more knowledge of the

01:28:40

Old Testament scriptures and had been very conscious of rejecting the gospel of faith alone and Christ alone, wanting to add

01:28:52

Jewish laws to the gospel for salvation. Where those on Mars Hill, they were just sort of ignorant in their paganism.

01:29:02

So he comes with the gospel, yes. Do you have any final lessons or words of counsel that you'd like to offer those who might be involved, especially in apologetics, whether as trained professionals as you were or those who are just laymen who get involved with in -depth discussions with family, friends, and loved ones and are seeking to defend the faith.

01:29:33

And perhaps these people have even been accused of crossing the line from speaking the truth and love to what could truly be labeled hate speech.

01:29:43

I know that hate speech is a term that's thrown around a lot these days, even for someone who out of love and compassion for the lost is just trying to evangelize them.

01:29:53

But in a true sense, there are people who could be rightly accused of hate speech. Do you have any words uniquely for those types of people who are either crossing the line or perhaps are getting far too close to crossing the line?

01:30:08

Well, I think if I was only going to focus on one key takeaway, one key lesson or word, it would be to think about the cross, to think hard about how the

01:30:23

Lord has treated you and treat others out of the overflow of that.

01:30:32

I think that's the most important thing. So Ken Sandy, in his wonderful book, The Peacemaker, he said that we ought to be people that breathe in God's grace and then breathe it out.

01:30:45

And as we think about how patient the Lord has been with us, how many times we heard that same truth and rejected it, may it be that we would treat others with that kind of patience and sweetness as the

01:31:02

Lord has treated us. We often will fight and wrestle to come to some doctrinal point of precision over months or years and then turn around and expect our friends to get it in a couple of weeks.

01:31:17

Well, the Lord was so much kinder than that. And we're so thankful He didn't just turn up the heat on us.

01:31:24

And may it be that we would still have grace to clearly articulate the truth, hold to the truth, even precise points of the truth, but do it graciously, do it with kindness, do it with sweetness.

01:31:41

As the Lord has dealt with us, so let us deal with one another. And must we not be prepared as Christians that even if we are obedient to Christ by being very compassionate and gracious and loving in our approach to polemics, there will certainly be people who nonetheless will be highly offended and who will accuse us of being hateful just when we were following the very example and commands of Christ.

01:32:10

Right. Yeah, Romans 12, in as much as it's possible, be at peace with all men, which seems to give a little room there to say sometimes it's not going to be possible.

01:32:21

You know, we do our best with that and trust God for the results. In fact, if no one is ever offended by what we are saying about the

01:32:31

Lord and about the gospel and about the scriptures, there must be something wrong. Well, that's right, because the

01:32:38

Bible is pretty clear. They hated me. They'll hate you, my followers, our Lord said to us.

01:32:44

So if we're representing Him, we're going to be the other direction from the way the world would have it be.

01:32:53

And if it could be summarized, would it be correctly said that the gospel is offensive enough?

01:33:03

We need not add our own offensiveness unnecessarily when evangelizing the lost.

01:33:10

That's right. Yeah, we have plenty for them to stumble over besides us. Well, why don't you give our listeners the contact information for Faith Bible Church in Sharpsburg, Georgia.

01:33:22

And I know that the book can be purchased through Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, who sponsors

01:33:28

Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio, that's CBBBS .com. They have a long line of Reformation Heritage Books titles there.

01:33:38

And if they don't currently have your book in stock, I know they can order it at CBBBS .com.

01:33:43

But what contact information can you give other than that? The times I've been to Carlisle, Pennsylvania, stopping in at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service has been one of the highlights.

01:33:54

It ought to be for Reformation -minded Christians a destination location.

01:34:02

I love to stop in there and see the guys and get shelf after shelf of the best books at great prices.

01:34:10

And they have been so faithful in their ministry. And they have had my other books. So that's great.

01:34:17

And Todd and Patty Jennings did not pay you to say that. No, no, no, but they are friends. So that's good. So yeah, so Faith Bible Church, our website is faithbiblechurch .us.

01:34:30

And we're also on Sermon Audio. You can look us up there if you'd like to hear preaching verse -by -verse through books of the

01:34:39

Bible and seeking to be faithful on the south side of Atlanta. Great. Well, it has been, as I said earlier, an honor to have you back on the program.

01:34:47

And I look forward to you returning many times in the future. Thank you so much, Chris. It's a pleasure. God bless you.

01:34:52

Please say hello to John and Dale Grimaldi for me. Okay. God bless. Well, we are going to our final break now.

01:35:00

And we're going to have one more on -site interview that we are going to play for you, conducted live at the

01:35:07

G3 conference. And we are going to eventually, God willing, play each and every one of those on -site interviews.

01:35:14

But today we have just enough time for one more. So please don't go away.

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We're going to be right back, God willing, right after these messages from our sponsors. Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am

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01:40:38

And now we're going to air our last interview of the day that was conducted on -site at the G3 conference with more to come in the future,

01:40:45

God willing, but this is our last on -site interview for today that we conducted at the

01:40:50

G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia with Jared Longshore. This is

01:40:57

Chris Arnzen again on -site at the G3 conference, and I have with me a first -time guest here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Jared Longshore, the first pastor

01:41:09

I think I've met that has a name that should be a TV detective, but I love that name,

01:41:15

Jared Longshore. He's Associate Pastor of Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida, and those of you who listen to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio often enough may remember that that is the congregation where my dear friend

01:41:29

Pastor Tom Askell is the pastor, and I've known Tom for quite a number of years, and some mutual friends, very precious friends of my late wife

01:41:41

Julie and mine, Frank and Carmen Giliberti, are members of this church. They were formerly members of First Baptist Church of Lindenhurst, Long Island, where I used to live, in addition to Amityville, Long Island, where I once had my home before moving to Pennsylvania, but Jared is not only the

01:41:59

Associate Pastor of Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida, but he's also the Administrative Director of Founders Ministries, which

01:42:07

Tom Askell, where Tom Askell serves as the Executive Director, but it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Jared Longshore.

01:42:17

Thanks, Chris. Very happy to be with you. And immediately I'm getting a little upset because you have a better radio voice than I do.

01:42:24

I don't know about that. I don't know about that. But what I usually like to do, Pastor Jared, is when

01:42:30

I have a first -time guest on the program, I like them to give an abbreviated version of their personal testimony of how they came to salvation in Christ, what kind of religious upbringing you may have had, if any, how the

01:42:44

Lord got a hold of you providentially, and also how you came to embrace the doctrines of sovereign grace, commonly known as Reformed theology and Calvinism.

01:42:54

Yeah. You know, I was born and raised in a Christian home, attended a

01:42:59

Southern Baptist church in Central Florida. My father was a deacon in the church and was very involved all throughout my life.

01:43:07

Sunday morning, Sunday nights, Wednesday nights, kind of hearing the gospel again and again.

01:43:13

And when I was nine, I came to see my sin. God saved me, opened my eyes to redemption and the blood of Christ.

01:43:21

I was convicted of my sin. I believe I genuinely trusted Christ and was subsequently baptized and continued to grow up in that church, spent the first 18 years of my life attending that church.

01:43:32

And I was unaware of the doctrines of grace, especially even how they stood at the foundation of our

01:43:40

Baptist heritage, but went away to college and then went down to Southwest Florida, finished up college there.

01:43:49

And then as I finished up college, got married, I started attending, or started going to Trinity, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School.

01:44:01

D .A. Carson's on the faculty. Yeah, there. So I actually went to an extension site in Fort Lauderdale, Florida.

01:44:07

They would fly professors down there. It's kind of great experience. Newly married, got involved in ministry right away upon graduating.

01:44:14

I started reading Grudem Systematic Theology, started Piper's Desiring God, and really had lightbulbs start going off about Reformed Theology.

01:44:23

Had a class at Trinity, John Gerstner lectures on Jonathan Edwards. Wow. I had the privilege of hearing

01:44:32

Dr. Gerstner preach on Jonathan Edwards at a Bible conference in Westchester, New York, at the

01:44:38

Westchester Orthodox Presbyterian Church sometime in the 1990s, I guess that was. Wow.

01:44:45

Well, boy, I wish they could have been in person, but I greatly benefited from that course with him, reading

01:44:50

Religious Affections, reading Freedom of the Will, and just really enjoyed that reading,

01:44:56

The End For Which God Created the World. So from there, I was thinking, okay, what do I do with my background as a

01:45:02

Southern Baptist? Well, then I was reading, I think it's Young, Restless, and Reformed, where they cite this

01:45:08

Tom Askew at Grace Baptist Church in Cape Coral, Florida, and I was 30 minutes away at the church I was serving.

01:45:13

I said, my goodness, what's this all about? So I discovered the 1689 at that point, and really saw that the things

01:45:20

I was learning were, the people that had gone before me, even in the Southern Baptist tradition, were well acquainted with these doctrines of grace.

01:45:29

So that's kind of my story in a nutshell. And tell us something about Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida.

01:45:38

Grace Baptist Church is a gospel preaching church there in Cape Coral, Florida. I believe it was established,

01:45:45

I don't know, probably 34 -ish, 35 years ago. Tom has been the pastor there for 32 years now.

01:45:54

So, man, sweet, sweet congregation, one that I dearly love.

01:45:59

I got to pass through Grace in 2010 when I went to plant a church out of Grace in a community about 30 minutes away, and then was called back to serve as Tom's associate back in the beginning of January, or beginning of 2015.

01:46:15

So, sweet congregation, loves the Lord, happy to be there. Amen, and of course, we want to know, even though we've had

01:46:23

Dr. Tom Askell on the program many times, I'd like to, especially since we have new listeners joining the

01:46:30

Iron Sherpins Iron radio audience every day, I'd like you to tell our listeners something about Founders Ministries, which is where you serve as an administrative director.

01:46:40

Yeah, Founders Ministries was established in 1983, and I often tell people

01:46:46

I was established in 1984. There you go.

01:46:52

I say, Tom, you were pastoring the church when I was one year old in a diaper, and the same was true for Founders Ministries.

01:46:58

But it's a ministry devoted to the recovery of the gospel and the reformation of local churches, and so a

01:47:04

Calvinistic Baptist teaching ministry is going to teach everything from the vantage point of the 1689

01:47:09

Confession. We are happy to point to that Timothy George quote where he said, all the delegates that gathered there in Augusta, Georgia at the founding of the

01:47:20

Southern Baptist Convention all came from churches or associations that were held to the 1689 Confession.

01:47:26

So, we would love to see reformation in local churches where the doctrines of grace are proclaimed.

01:47:33

We seek to teach through a variety of ways, so we have a quarterly journal that goes out, more academic articles, that's free and online at founders .org.

01:47:45

I think we just published like the 111th or 112th journal, so it's been going on for a really long time.

01:47:51

We have a press, a number of books that are published through there. A recent one from Richard Barcelos, Getting the

01:47:56

Garden Right, focuses on the covenant of works and the doctrine of the Sabbath is seen in the garden and then throughout scripture.

01:48:04

We do interviews on occasion, you can get those also on our website. We have a study center for those who are interested in a more in -depth theological education.

01:48:13

We have partnerships with Southern Seminary, Southeastern Seminary, and even others where guys can take up to 24 hours of credit with us and then transfer that into those institutions for credit.

01:48:24

We also host conferences as well. We have a church search online. Those are some of the things that we do. I'd like you to give a report, if you will, on the climate of the

01:48:38

Southern Baptist Convention. I know that it's an interesting phenomenon that you have a denomination,

01:48:45

I believe it may even be the largest Protestant denomination in the world. Am I right on that? I believe so.

01:48:52

Founded by Calvinists and now the Calvinists are a tiny minority in that giant denomination of brothers in Christ who, of course, we love and we fellowship with and consider our dear brothers and sisters in Christ.

01:49:12

But at the same time, there are different levels of hostility against the doctrines of grace in that denomination.

01:49:22

After this wonderful triumph that the denomination has by God's grace achieved over liberalism, this removal of the liberal element that really dominated much of the

01:49:39

Southern Baptist Convention for too long in the seminary, especially perhaps in Louisville, that has gone back to its biblical roots and there is much rejoicing that still goes on over that when we're reflecting upon what was going on not that long ago in the history of your denomination, relatively speaking.

01:50:03

But now there is facing those who are both inerrants or those who are adherents to inerrancy, basically getting involved in some heated disagreement at times over these doctrines.

01:50:20

What can you tell us about what you see happening right now in the denomination and your vision of what you believe is going to come down the road?

01:50:32

I mean, you're not a prophet, but what do you see developing in the denomination and what is your hope for the denomination? Yeah, you know,

01:50:38

I'd start by saying I'm really encouraged by what I've experienced at least. I mean, I grew up in a church that was not

01:50:45

Reformed by any means. We were Baptist faith and message and, you know,

01:50:50

Christ was preached. I remember hearing the good news of Christ, repenting of sin, trusting in Christ.

01:50:56

But then discovering this heritage, I thought, I mean, this is something that has to be recovered, that ought to be recovered. We're a pillar and buttress of the truth.

01:51:03

And so we want to see more and more Reformation, more and more of God's sovereign grace in Christ being proclaimed and being thoroughly understood, comprehended, believed, loved in local churches.

01:51:20

I went to Southern Seminary for my Master's of Divinity, transferred out of Trinity there, did doctoral work there as well.

01:51:26

So I spent a total of, I don't know, seven plus years probably visiting that campus, getting to know people there.

01:51:33

I was just remarkably encouraged. Dr. Nettles, Tom Nettles at Southern there, I studied under him.

01:51:38

Yeah, I've had him on the program many times. And, you know, he's said before, I'm teaching in class and I'll start talking about doctrines of grace and I realize

01:51:46

I'm assuming that everybody here understands these things. I'll stop and say, is everybody clear on this? I mean, is there anybody here that kind of doesn't believe this and everybody's just nodding.

01:51:54

We all agree. We're everybody there, you know. So I hear the stories of what it was like back when

01:52:00

Dr. Nettles taught in the beginning of his career and then hear stories from other men.

01:52:06

And it's remarkable to me to think of Southern Seminary, Southeastern Seminary, even

01:52:12

Midwestern now, things that are going on that are very good, kind of a recovery of historical theology as well.

01:52:18

I did my studies on John Leadley Dagg. He's the first American Baptist systematic theologian who wrote the

01:52:25

Manual of Theology. His theology was used at the foundation of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

01:52:30

It's clearly Calvinistic through and through. And John brought us others. These guys are being brought forward that I think more people are appreciating that heritage and that's helping the

01:52:41

Reformation. What's going on right now, you look at good healthy churches that are establishing what the

01:52:48

Nine Marks guys are doing is hugely significant. Seeing churches that are again being confessional, putting that at the forefront of what they're doing and seeing healthy church membership, church discipline, these kinds of things that are essential to the ongoing

01:53:05

Reformation. And then Dr. Moeller, Dr. Aiken, Dr. Jason Allen at Midwestern, I think we're seeing great things there, even in the institutions of the

01:53:15

IMB, North American Mission Board. It seems to me there's a great Reformation that is going on in the

01:53:24

SBC. And from a guy like me, I mean, I'm so grateful for the conservative resurgence.

01:53:30

I'm a son of the conservative resurgence. These men said, this is the Bible and we're going to believe what the Bible says.

01:53:36

And I think in many ways, some of the kind of younger, perhaps the new Calvinists, even within the

01:53:42

SBC have said, well, this is what our forefathers have said the Bible's true.

01:53:47

Now we're reading it and saying, this is what it says, this is what it says. So I'm very encouraged by that as well.

01:53:53

I don't know what will happen at the upcoming SBC, but I see a lot of signs for hope within the

01:54:00

SBC of good things that are happening. I think Founders has gone a long way in building bridges in that way and having conversations, continuing to talk about the word of God and what is there.

01:54:13

So I'm hopeful. Amen. Well, how do you respond to those critics?

01:54:20

They may be fundamentalists, or they may be even Reformed Baptists who say, why are you even a part of a denomination that in its majority disagrees with what you believe?

01:54:33

Why don't you just break off into independent, local autonomous churches as is the pattern of historic

01:54:40

Baptist polity and why the need to remain a part of the

01:54:45

Southern Baptist Convention? How do you respond to that kind of charge that might be hurled against you by fundamentalists and even some of the fellow

01:54:55

Reformed Baptists around the country? I try to emphasize what the Southern Baptist Convention is, meaning that we are a local congregation.

01:55:05

Grace Baptist Church in Cape Coral, Florida, the convention could go tomorrow and nothing's going to change for us.

01:55:14

We're an autonomous congregation. But when we look at this kind of banding of brothers, these people that can sign off on the

01:55:22

Baptist faith and message, and to link arms with these people for the cause of missions, for the cause of church planting and seeing the gospel advance in the world, we say, okay, we can do that.

01:55:35

And that doesn't mean that we're only going to partner with people that are SBC. There's other churches outside of the

01:55:41

SBC that we're going to partner and support with internationally. There's going to be all kinds of Baptist Reformed brothers that we partner with in the advance of the gospel.

01:55:50

But man, if we've got an organization, an institution of churches that are pre -committed to this, even if you look back at the history, and there seems to be a great work going on right now of more and more people discovering that heritage, it's big.

01:56:07

There's no doubt it's big. There's going to be people in it that are not committed to these things. But boy,

01:56:13

I say, for partnering for missions, we can join in on that. Be happy to support in that and to labor for further reformation within that.

01:56:21

Great. Yeah, I even know a couple of churches in New York, one of which for decades, for many years, was affiliated with another organization,

01:56:33

Baptist organization, that not long ago joined the Southern Baptist Convention. They're in New York City.

01:56:40

And another in Westchester County that was as a newer church that joined the

01:56:45

SBC. Well, I want you to summarize what you most want to have etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

01:56:54

Oh, well, I mean, being here at the G3 Conference and hearing about discipleship, discipleship from a standpoint of brothers and sisters that hold to the sovereignty of God and salvation and remembering what grace really is.

01:57:11

We were saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. These are precious, precious truths to us.

01:57:18

And the unity that's here is sweet. You know, there's a sense of these people get the gospel, what

01:57:23

Founders Ministries is about, what Grace Baptist Church is about. We want to be a pillar and buttress of the truth, the truth of the gospel, who

01:57:31

Jesus Christ is, what Jesus Christ has done, why that matters for us. We're sinners saved by grace.

01:57:38

To never let that grow old, to never assume it, to never neglect it, to hold fast to what

01:57:45

God has revealed to us, that Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners. That would be the thing that I would encourage listeners to hold dearly to in their individual lives, in their churches, in their missions, efforts as well.

01:57:58

Amen. Well, why don't you give our listeners contact information for both the Grace Baptist Church of Cape Coral, Florida, and also for Founders Ministries?

01:58:06

Yeah, Grace Baptist Church in Cape Coral, Florida, probably the best way is give you their website. So their website is www .truegraceofgod

01:58:14

.org. If you go there, sermons that you can listen to, get more information about the church and things that are going on there.

01:58:23

Founders Ministries, best place to go is www .founders .org.

01:58:28

We have a ton of resources on there. I mean, there's just a lot of resources built up all the way back from the establishment of Founders Ministries.

01:58:35

So that can be a helpful resource as well. And I wonder if Trace Atkins is listening, because he may be getting nervous that you're going to steal voiceover work from him.

01:58:45

Oh, man. Well, I do play the guitar, you know. I do play the guitar and sing a little bit. So who knows? I kind of had that prediction that you might be a guitar player and a singer.

01:58:55

But it's been an honor and privilege to have you on the program, Pastor Jared Longshore. I look forward to your return to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

01:59:02

Thanks for having me, Chris. Well, that's all our interviews for today. And as I said, we plan on airing all of the on -site interviews we conducted at the

01:59:12

G3 conference, spread out over a period of time, undetermined right now.

01:59:18

But remember that the folks that run the G3 conference can be found at praisemill .com.

01:59:24

That's Praise Mill Baptist Church of Douglasville, Georgia. Praisemill .com, P -R -A -Y -S -Mill .com.

01:59:31

And, of course, the conference itself, they have a website, G3conference .com, G3conference .com.

01:59:37

I want to thank Pastor Josh Bice from the bottom of my heart for enabling me to be present there at the

01:59:44

G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater