February 5, 2018 Show with Interviews from the 2018 G3 Conference Part 2: Ed Moore, Voddie Baucham, John Crotts, AND Jared Longshore

The Iron Sharpens Iron Theme and Proverbs 27:17

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this fifth day of February 2017, and I hope you are going to enjoy hearing some more of the on-site interviews I conducted while at the G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia, and the very first one I'm going to air today is with a very dear friend of mine that I've known going back to the early 1990s.

I got to know him immediately after he had become the pastor of North Shore Baptist Church in Bayside, Queens, New York, having moved from Columbia, South Carolina, where he was on the pastoral team at Three Rivers Baptist Church, along with another friend of mine, Gary Scott, who was the senior pastor over Ed, and my friend Ed Moore is who I'm speaking of.

What a joy it was to see him at this conference. I hardly ever get to see him anymore. His schedule is so busy, and he still lives in New York, and I live in Pennsylvania, so it was a joy to see him and his son, Parker, at the G3 conference, and here is my interview with Pastor Ed Moore of the North Shore Baptist Church of Bayside, Queens, New York.

I hope you enjoy it just as much as I did. This is Chris Arnson again on site at the G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia, and I have with me right now a very dear friend going back to the early 1990s, Pastor Ed Moore of North Shore Baptist Church in Bayside, Queens, New York.

I became a friend of his shortly after his arriving in Queens, after having served on the ministry team at Three Rivers Baptist Church in Columbia, South Carolina, and I was one of the first friends that he had after relocating, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio, Pastor Ed.

Moore. Amen, and it is a great joy to see you again, Chris, and to be with you. I think the first time that we ever spoke was December 31st, 1992, and at the time, you were putting together a radio show for WMCA, and it consisted of Doctrines of Grace pastors, and I was honored to be...

The Voice of Sovereign Grace. The Voice of Sovereign Grace, and I was honored to be a part of that.

By the way, why do you have an accent that you've never spoken with before? You're speaking in a.

Very strange way. Well, I'm running from the IRS.

Well, tell our listeners about North Shore Baptist Church in Bayside.

Okay, well, it was started in 1933, and there was a pastor who served there from 1939 until 1992. He died in 1977, but he served until 1992. He was a great man of God. His name was James King. He was from Scotland, and back before anybody else was doing it, he was preaching through the Bible chapter by chapter, verse by verse, going through four books of the Bible at a time, Sunday school, Sunday morning, Sunday night, and Wednesday night, and the people from that day tell me that you could tell no difference between his Sunday school class and his Sunday morning service or any of the other ones.

It was always just the straight word of God, rich and pure, and then there was a lull for a few years at North Shore Baptist Church with some various pastors who served the Lord faithfully, and then I arrived in 1992, and so I've been there a little over 25 years, and I just want to say thank you to you, Chris, because in coming to New York, I didn't know what kind of influence I would see for the doctrines of grace in Queens and Long Island, and you were always a great champion of the truth and did everything you could to promote our church and to promote the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ.

So our church has had the privilege of planting a few churches. One of them is out in Long Island, Pastor Caleb Bunch with Redeeming Grace Fellowship, and a couple of other small churches that we've planted in New Jersey and Queens.

Yeah, I'm actually the.

One who found, Caleb, the building that there, and the Massapequa Church of God. With your good.

Friend Jim Capo. Yeah, they're working together now, which has been a great blessing for both of them, as I understand. So I'm very thankful for North Shore Baptist Church. We remain a relatively small church, and I'm thankful that we do.

Thankfully, we have a very small building, which prompts us from time to time to go out and to plant other churches, and that has been a larger.

Blessing than actually growing a large church in one spot. Yeah, this is the reverse of the philosophy of most evangelical churches, it seems. We have about 200 members, and honestly,.

And I'm not saying this to be humble, and I'm certainly not saying it to be funny, I do not do a good job caring for, and knowing about, and keeping up with the 200 members that we do have. I don't see how we could take on many more.

I'm thankful for each of them, but at least for my skill level, and I thank God for the other four elders that we have at the church. But we are we are packed with 200 members in keeping up with them.

We do not do a good enough job with them. I don't see how we could have many more. And I don't know, I'm not being critical of mega churches, but I don't see how they are actually caring for the people, or how you would even do something like fencing the Lord's table, or having meaningful church membership, or exercising church discipline when there are multiple thousands of people, some of which you don't even know.

Their names. Yeah, you would have to have a lot of elders to adequately perform that duty. In fact, I can still remember I had a client, an advertising client on my radio show, and I asked this individual who was a member of a very large well-known church in Manhattan about the pastor there who was, he is now with the Lord, but he was a very globally known figure.

And I said, so how is this pastor so-and-so as a person? I've never met him. I just was curious, how is he as a person? And this member of that church said, oh, I've never met him. I just thought that that was bizarre that you would be a member of a church and you've never met the shepherd, the key shepherd of that.

Yeah, and that's odd because I found.

Cardinal O 'Connor to be very personable. That was not who I was referring to. Okay, I know, I know.

Well, tell us how the people, by God's grace, in the New York City area, and when I was growing up, New York City was exclusively Manhattan, but I know that people refer to Queens and Brooklyn and the Bronx and Staten Island as New York City, and you're in Queens.

But how are the folks, by God's grace, responding to the doctrines of sovereign grace, which is a rarity in Manhattan? I'm still puzzled by that, why there aren't many more thoroughly reformed, solid doctrines of grace churches, especially in Manhattan.

I mean, I only know maybe one or two. But in your personal experience in Queens, what is the response been?

Yeah, it's interesting. I started my career in the ministry. I guess career is not the right word. I started in the ministry in 1984, having been saved at age 16, and then just completing the University of Georgia in 1984, and coming to the doctrines of grace and working in a church in suburban Atlanta.

And in those days, you really could not identify yourself. And I was in a church that was in the Southern Baptist Convention. You could not identify yourself as believing those things. You had to speak in code, and you had to use euphemisms to identify who you were.

You could not have had a gathering like G3. I don't think that there were this many people that would embrace these doctrines in North America. I don't think that there were. So much has happened over the past 35 years.

But when I got to New York City, I found that the attitude of people was actually a lot warmer toward these things than it was in the South in those days. And I don't know why. One reason might be because I think that when a person is newly saved, and you open the scripture to them, and they don't have any preconceived baggage that they picked up from a decisionalistic, revivalistic, largely Arminian numbers-driven background.

If they're just coming to the Lord fresh from hell, and you point them to John 6, 44, or Romans chapter 9, or the end of Romans chapter 8, there really isn't that much of a struggle with it. They see it.

They embrace it. They love it because they know that they themselves have been sovereignly called, and that they were not looking for the Lord, but the Lord found them. And so I think for the most part, there was more of an openness to it in that area in my limited experience.

So I haven't seen much resistance or or pushback, at least from people in New York. And one other interesting thing, which in the long run, it ended up being a very destructive force. But at the time, and I'm sure you can remember this, Chris, one of the reasons why some of the people in New York were at least willing to embrace the doctrines of grace was because of the ministry of Family Radio and Harold Camping.

Now, I mean, the Kool-Aid drinkers that bought the whole package went on to do great harm to the cause of Christ and to the church. But he was a voice back in the day that was very outspoken for the doctrines of grace, which at least opened the door for conversations that I found to be very, very, very positive.

I mean, I want to be clear. I don't miss him. I don't want to have him come back. But you know what I'm saying when I say that he was at least outspoken about the doctrines of grace such that conversations would be available to us.

And the station itself was a treasure trove of churches from all over the United States that were solidly reformed, especially on the ECHOES program, which started off as Conference ECHOES, and then it just became ECHOES.

And I actually got a number of your sermons on that station,.

Especially the one centered, Where Are You? Yes. And as a result, people came to our church. That was back in 1993. People came to our church who are still in our church today as a result of our little church being on Conference ECHOES.

Yeah. So much good was done through family radio before.

Things began to decline. Now, do you have any counsel, advice for churches desirous of planting a church in an inner city, especially because that is what your current experience is? Any things that they should avoid?

Any things that they should very vigorously and aggressively do.

That you might want to suggest? I could tell you so much about what not to do because of all of our failures and some of the things that we tried which just didn't work. I think one of the myths that—and I appreciated so much the message that Tim gave this afternoon about the multicultural dimension of the church and how we are called to love one another.

That's a myth? No, no, no. The reading of Revelation 5 was just electrifying. It was God-glorifying. But what you will hear so often is, well, if you reach New York City, you reach the world. And I think the truth of the matter is if you reach New York City, you reach New York City because these people are not going back.

They are here. And so don't view it as world missions. View it as reaching the people who are right in front of you. And another thing I would say, and I hope this doesn't sound carnal, but this is just an observation that I have seen played out so many times and I know that you have as well, is that there's a lot of gimmicks, there's a lot of games, there's a lot of dog and pony show stuff that's going on, and a lot of really sharp people that are putting a lot of great graphics together, and a lot of studies, and a lot of demographic statistics that are coming at you, and people are more likely to do this if you meet at this time or whatever.

But I think the bottom line is this, if you have someone who actually is a gifted communicator of the scriptures and will faithfully proclaim the word of God, that is your greatest asset. There are many other things that need to happen, but I think that that is the most important thing.

And I think what is happening is many people are trying to plant churches with men who maybe have not been as seasoned as they need to be in the proclamation of the word and haven't been trained in preaching.

One of the things that I've seen coming out of seminaries is this, is that the guys coming out of seminary, they're good men, they're godly, they're willing. I admire them so much, but they have been trained how to preach in the seminary rather than being trained in the local church.

And I think what is happening is those who are training preachers in the seminaries, men who are not preachers themselves, I kind of go with the Woody Allen philosophy of preaching, those who can do, those who can't teach, and those who can't teach, teach physical education, that guys are teaching in the seminaries who are not preachers themselves.

And so guys are coming out with a lot of knowledge, but not the proper training. And I think that that training needs to come in and through the local church, and that's not happening. And so men are being sent to the Northeast who are very willing, but yet have not been properly trained how to preach, and they're scratching their heads as to why the churches are not growing.

I just think my advice, I mean this is a long answer to a short question, I think the answer is that men need to be trained to preach, and I think the rest of it will take care of itself.

If we're faithful to the scriptures. Now trained to be good preachers in the local church, do you think that the homiletics classes and seminaries is failing, or where do you where do you envision this taking place?

I don't think that you have an atmosphere.

In the classroom, in the seminary, which is actually going to be realistic and helpful. I think there are some things that you can learn, but I think if when you are standing in front of a union electrician, and you're standing in front of a school teacher, and you're standing in front of a single mom, and you're standing in front of someone who's just gone through a divorce, and you're standing in front of someone who's going through depression, and you're standing in front of a 12-year-old boy, and it's like a real church with real people and real problems, and you're looking at them, it is it is a better training ground for preaching the word than it is sitting in a room with desks around other seminary students who are critiquing how you parse this verb.

And don't get me wrong, we should parse the verbs correctly, we should be accurate, but I think that that preaching in the context of the local church and getting feedback from godly elders and from congregants who are the real people that you're preaching to, I think that's where you learn how to preach.

Now I just want to tell you very quickly.

My favorite Woody Allen joke, since you brought up Woody Allen. This is from his old stand-up days in the 60s, I think it might have been from the Ed Sullivan show, but he's standing there admiring his watch, and he pauses in silence for a few moments to just look at it, and he says, my grandfather on his deathbed sold me this watch.

But anyway, going back to the discussion, one thing that I have heard some of our fundamentalist friends say about reformed people, not all reformed people, or should I say not all reformed pastors and preachers, but they will say it is far too common among us for pastors to not be preachers but to be lecturers.

How do you respond to that, and what is the difference between somebody getting up behind a pulpit and merely teaching and somebody who is preaching? What is the difference? Well, I'm the least.

Charismatic person that you will ever meet, both in terms of charisma and my understanding of the gifts. I am a militant cessationist, but I would answer the question by saying the Holy Spirit. There are those like Martin Lloyd-Jones who, just if you based it on speaking style, is like watching paint dry.

But if you add the Holy Spirit to what he was saying, it really didn't matter how he presented it. It was, as they say, logic on fire. And you have other people who have great charisma, pace around the pulpit, are very animated, have electrifying illustrations, but the absence of the Holy Spirit will leave you empty, even though there's great charisma, regardless of what their theological leanings are.

And so I've seen brothers, and I would disagree with them, but I've seen brothers who are fundamentalists, who I believe were really filled with the Holy Spirit, and when they would stand to preach, my heart was pricked.

And I've seen brothers that I agree with, and I agree with every word that they're saying. I couldn't disagree with a syllable, but yet it did sound like a lecture. It did sound like someone was reading a book.

So I think that the difference is the power of the Holy Spirit, and that's why I admire that anecdotal story of Spurgeon so much, as he would walk up the steps to his pulpit, as each foot would land on a step, he would say, I believe in the Holy Ghost, I believe in the Holy Ghost, I believe in the Holy Ghost.

I think.

That makes the difference. Now I've heard you preach a number of times, although it's been a long time since I've heard you preach. One of the things that was always interesting to me is that you are an extremely humorous person, in fact, probably the funniest person I have ever met in my life.

And yet, every time you ascended into the pulpit, you might have said a couple of funny things in the very introductions or something, but you did not have an ongoing comedy routine or anything like that throughout the sermons.

I mean, it was most of the time absent when you entered into that pulpit. Do you think that that is something that's important to.

Divide those two things? I would not want to challenge the conscience of one who would say that to bring humor into a sermon, that they just are convicted that it is wrong. Like if I knew that and I was in that person's church, then I would honor that.

At the same time, I would say that those who think that it is a necessity and that you're called to get people's attention and humor is one of the ways that you do it, and therefore you need to be all things to all men.

I wouldn't take that either. I mean, when you look at how the Lord used Spurgeon, and there's usually something in all of his sermons that's just hilarious. Here, I'll give you one quick Spurgeon story, and I'm sure your listeners have heard it before, but it bears repeating.

He had gone to a small church to preach, and they didn't even have an offering plate, and so he passed his hat, and his hat came back empty. There was no money in it for the offering, and he said, let's pray, and he said, dear Lord, I just want to thank you that these cheap people didn't steal.

My hat. That is a verifiable Spurgeon story. I don't know, but I'll have to ask Bill Johnson.

But I don't see a problem with it. I myself am distracted when at a critical juncture of the sermon, something is said that is intentionally funny, especially to take the gravity out of pressing home the holiness of God, or to press home the seriousness of sin, or to distract from the substitution of Christ, or to distract from the need for holiness.

But I think in all communication that there are different things that we use that the Lord has given to us. But I will say this. I am filled with enough pride, and there is enough sin in my heart that there are times when I will attempt for selfish reasons to be funny, not for the benefit of the listener, but so that I might appear to be funny.

And I think that's where the rebuke is needed, and that's where repentance is needed. And so for the most part, I don't want to be somebody different in the pulpit than I am when I am not in the pulpit.

But I think for the most part, I'm pretty much all business there. And if I thought that humor would be effective in communicating the gospel, I'm not opposed to using it. But laughs for laughs sake, I think I need to get away from that, as do all preachers.

I'm sorry, were you saying something? And of course, this is in the pulpit, so I get to do that. Can you tell us your thoughts? You know, a lot of times when you hear Reformed folks, not that there's a lot of Reformed broadcasts or programs, a lot more than there used to be, but when you hear Reformed folks get together, it is most often, it seems to me, pointing out the errors of what everyone else is doing and mainstream evangelicalism and so on.

But what can you say as a word of warning to Reformed listeners, to Reformed pastors, to Reformed average Joe American Christian? Thank you so much for asking that question.

I was raised in an Arminian home, in a Christian missionary alliance church in western Pennsylvania. To this day, they are the godliest people that I've ever met in my life. And they would not have believed the doctrines of grace.

In fact, they would not have known what they were. But they were people who passionately loved Jesus Christ. When I was in college at the literature class, and a man who was an atheist who was teaching American literature said, you cannot understand American literature without understanding Jonathan Edwards, and you can't understanding Jonathan Edwards without understanding Calvinism.

And so he wrote T-U-L-I-P on the board and said, we're going to have a quiz on this tomorrow. And I raised my hand as the one evangelical Christian in the room and I said, I need to speak up for my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

And I need to let you know, I don't know who this Edwards fellow is, but he's an idiot. And this is not what the Bible teaches. And I was really opposed to the doctrines of grace. And then the Lord opened my eyes through my daily devotions when I was going through the book of Romans.

And I came to embrace each of these points. And although that is still my understanding today, and it has not changed at all, I'm very ashamed of the way that I behaved for many years with respect to how I was in the cage stage and that I was so critical of others.

And the same way that you were when you were on a miniature.

Absolutely. Yes. Once a jerk, always a jerk. But the fact of the matter is I'm very ashamed of the way that I didn't embrace the evangelical community. And I'm not talking about an ecumenical spirit where we are throwing doctrine out.

But what I am saying is, if someone is a believer in Christ, and if someone is my brother, and if someone is going to be in heaven with me, and if someone was bought with the same blood that I am, we can disagree.

But I believe we need to disagree in an agreeable way. By this, all men will know that you're my disciples if you have love for one another. And so I would say, believe these doctrines, preach these doctrines, proclaim them unashamedly.

But at the same time, if I have not love, I am nothing. And I think that there's a lot of arrogance, at least there was on my part, that went into understanding these things and then finding fault with those who did not.

So my advice to the one who is new in the doctrines of grace, or one who's been in the doctrines of grace for a long time, and yet is very arrogant in it, to repent of that and to let love, which is the greatest, let love rule, and to speak the truth in love.

Now the thing that's interesting about that is that.

There are obviously people who act like idiots from all theological persuasions, Pentecostals, Charismatics, Arminians, Roman Catholics, you could go on and on and on.

Well, do you remember the debate from May of 1997 in my church with Dr. James White and his opponent? Yes. And Dr. White was so gracious that evening, but do you remember the, regardless of what you believe, do you remember how cruel the other gentleman was and how demeaning he was.

Toward us? Right, I don't want you to mention names, but there were actually two debates in your church. I have to keep in mind, I keep remembering my friend, Pastor Bill Shishko, whenever I say your church or my church, he always says, it's the Lord Jesus Christ.

But North Shore Baptist Church, there were two debates that James White had there where both men were very obnoxious and insulting. But in fact, I can remember one man who was from a Church of Christ background.

He said, and I'm paraphrasing, he said, well, James White's teaching that God has this rig before the foundations of the world. Well, how can God find fault with us? Because according to James White, who could resist his will?

James said, are you aware that you almost word for word quoted what Paul predicted the opponents of the Doctrines of Grace would say in Romans 9? Exactly. And then everybody laughed and he was wondering why everybody laughed.

Would you remember his other opponent when James White had baffled him and he was frustrated and.

He responded by saying, I reckon I'm going to kill you. Yes, that is referring to an edited version of that debate where the Sling Blade movie soundtrack was combined with the debate. In fact, I need to get a copy of that tape.

But the thing that's interesting, though, even though these bigots who are very coarse and mocking and juvenile in the way that they often behave toward others that disagree, although that's true, we who are professing to be Calvinists or believers in the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace, we are most accountable for acting that way because our theology teaches us that we are to be humble, knowing that all things come from the grace of God.

Amen. And let me tell you the greatest example that I've ever seen of that. And that is Pastor Gary Scott, a brilliant man, committed five point Calvinist. I think Gary Scott read the Bible through. It was something like half a dozen times a year.

The guy was really. Yes. Yes. Very well versed in the scriptures, more so maybe than anyone that I've ever met. Yet at the same time, I don't know that I've ever met a more gracious man, one who the doctrines of grace were gracious.

You were attracted to what he had to say because he himself was so Christlike and so loving.

Somebody on that level who is not a full blown five point Calvinist, but lately it's been hard for me to disagree with him on much of anything. But Pastor Vinnie Sawyer, he is one of the most gracious and humble people from a hardline fundamentalist background, but not imitating some of the foolish and juvenile and nasty and hateful way that many in that camp will behave.

The first month and a half that I was in New York back in 1992, Vinnie Sawyer took me out to eat at a diner. And of course, with so few Baptist churches being in Queens, you know, everybody knows everybody knows everybody.

In a quarter century, I have never heard a bad word about Vinnie Sawyer from anyone, nor had an encounter with him myself. That was anything less than.

Gracious. So yes, I yeah. And he's ministering in Florida now and just I just had a recent interview with him. And the only thing that or should I say the most frequent thing that pops into my head when I speak with him or interview him is the way that Spurgeon referred to John Bunyan.

He said, and I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the quote in front of me, but his blood is bib line. You prick him anywhere and the Bible oozes out. That's the same thing. Amen. Amen. Yes. And do you have any special events, conferences or anything coming up in North Shore Baptist Church in Bayside, Queens that our listeners should know?

Thank you. OK, so on Saturday, March 17th, which is St. Patrick's Day, we are having the parenting seminar from nine to three p .m. Pastor Brian Davis from the Risen Christ Fellowship in Philadelphia is going to be with us that day for a parenting seminar.

And that is Saturday, the 17th of March, St. Patrick's Day Parenting Seminar at North Shore Baptist Church. And for information on that, you could call our church office at 718 -229 -7223, 718 -229 -7223, or look on our website, which is ns-bc .org.

So we would we would love to have people join us for that.

Well, I would love to interview him before the conference to help give it extra promotion.

Very good. Thank you. And you would be well edified to speak with him. He's a dear brother.

Amen. Well, what is the website of North Shore Baptist Church?

Ns-bc .org.

Ns-bc .org. And your church will always hold a very special place in my heart. All the fun that we've had together, all the learning that we've had together, the experiences and the debates that Dr. White conducted there and conferences and as well as many other things that has occurred in our trips together to the Bunyan Conference.

I hope that we have many more opportunities for fellowship and even interviews in the future awaiting us.

Well, amen. And I hope so as well. And I want to thank you for being a champion for the truth over the last quarter century and for being such a good friend to me and a good friend to our church. And I know that your listeners know that it is your desire in life to promote the truth.

So I thank you for this great privilege that it's been to speak for a few moments today.

Amen. And say hello to your lovely wife, Anna. Thank you. And believe it or not, ladies and gentlemen, our guest today, Ed Moore, has two sons, one named Parker, one named Charlie, and he had never heard of the saxophonist genius Charlie Parker before giving them that name.

Those names. Every blind squirrel finds an acorn.

Well, it's great to have you on and God bless you, bro. Thank you. God bless you. Well, I hope you enjoyed that. And we're going to our first commercial break right now. And we are obviously not taking questions today because our guests are from pre-recorded interviews that were conducted on site at the recent G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia.

Hence the background chatter, because there were thousands of people milling around as we were conducting those interviews. But don't go away. We'll be back with more interviews right after these messages.

And I hope that you enjoy them just as much as I did. Hi, I'm Chris Arnsen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

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Visit World News Group at wmg .org forward slash Iron Sharpens today. Welcome back, and now we are going to hear an interview that I had been waiting for, for a long time, my interview with world-renowned preacher, teacher, and author Voti Baucom.

Hope you enjoy it. This is Chris Sorensen again on site at the G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia, and my prayers have been answered because I finally, after many attempts, I finally have Voti Baucom as a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio for the very first time, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Voti Baucom.

Thank you very much. And Voti, I know that you have relocated from the United States to minister with my friend since 1995, Dr. Conrad Mbewe, who has been a guest on this program a number of times and also preached at the church where I was formerly a member on Long Island Grace Reform Baptist Church, where I actually was saved.

Conrad preached for us during his first American visit in 1995, and we have developed a friendship and been in contact ever since. But tell us exactly what compelled you to uproot your family and leave America to live in Zambia and work with the Kabwatha Baptist Church and the seminary and the school that's connected with it.

Yeah, well, I had the privilege of going to Zambia in 2006 and preaching at their annual reform conference. When I came back, my wife asked me how the trip was, and my response was, I think I want to be buried there.