Why Doubting Requires God!

Revealed Apologetics

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Welcome back to another episode of Revealed Apologetics. I'm your host Eli Ayala and today if you saw the thumbnail that is correct

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I have my special guest with me Saiten Bruggenkate who has been missing in action for a while but he's gonna share a little bit about what's been going on with him and then we're gonna jump right into our our topic and of course we're gonna be touching on other more broader issues relating to presuppositional apologetics.

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So as you guys know who follow my channel we talk about apologetics in general presuppositional apologetics in particular and today presupp is going to be our main focus.

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So if you've been blessed by the content of this channel please like the video, share the video, go on iTunes, write a positive review if you enjoy the podcast all those things are super helpful for me personally and encouraging to know that folks are really finding the content beneficial.

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Just real quick by way of announcement as much as I'm super excited about my guest today on February 16th

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I'm also excited about my guest Brant Bosserman who was on the show a while back but he is gonna come on with me to talk about the philosophical problem of the one and the many and so Bosserman is an expert in the area of the

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Trinity and how that relates to presuppositionalism and how that relates to like the transcendental argument and demonstrating how we know it is the triune

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God that we're demonstrating when we're using a presuppositional forms of argumentation and things like that.

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So you are not gonna want to miss that episode that is February 16th I believe 9 p .m.

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Eastern so definitely tune in for that. Now real quick before I invite Sai on the screen with me as always

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I'm going to be taking questions so if you have any questions put them in the comments and preface your question with question or cue something that will help me differentiate the questions and the comments.

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So I know that folks who haven't seen Sai for a while you probably have a billion questions or maybe a couple of questions but he'll be more than happy to address them.

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So without further ado we've got a few people watching now and let me invite

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Sai on the screen with me. How's it going brother? Doing well brother.

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Okay so all right so you and Bigfoot hold the championship the title for hide -and -seek right?

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Can't find Bigfoot? Folks haven't seen you around either and I'm sure folks are super curious as to how are you how you doing?

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You know what was going on? You can share as much as you'd like or you know you don't have to go into too much details but why don't you tell folks where you've been how you've been and and then we'll take the conversation from there.

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Well it's definitely been a roller coaster over the last year for sure and I'd first I want to start by thanking

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Eli for having me on today. I know that there's gonna be some people that are gonna be upset to see me and but by the response that I've been getting on Facebook and that the majority are very thankful to see me again and I want to tell people that through this ordeal

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I know that Facebook is and can be a cesspool but my

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Facebook friends most of whom I've never met have shown me a far greater support than people who have been close to me who

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I would have expected it from and you know when the news broke almost a year ago to the day it was my

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Facebook friends who who came forward and at the time the support for me was 100 % and they had no idea what had happened why

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I had stepped away from ministry and to this day many people have no idea why I stepped away and yet they supported me they trusted me and I'm so thankful for those people you have no idea

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I mean I saved all the comments before I deleted my page and I have them and I'm just so thankful for the support that people have shown and one thing

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I want to preface like I have no qualms with people knowing exactly every to the minute detail why

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I stepped away but there are people who'll be very upset that I did and I really don't you know

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I don't want to upset them but I am an apologist an apologist gives a defense now one thing that I found in this year of being away is that when you give a defense of things that are false that people tend to think that you're not repentant of that which is true so that's why

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I'm very reluctant to give a detailed account of what happened and what my defense is because then there are elements out in the society who say that well you know you're not not repentant what was actually the case but you know in a summary and some of this

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I've shared in my statements first of all I want to say that I am here with the full support of my session and my new pastor and when

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I say new pastor I've seen atheists and people online think that I left my church that I left my church that I'm under a new church now and that they're much more easy on me than my previous church was that's not the case

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I am still attending the same church but the pastor and session have changed since then for reasons that right now will be unnamed but but they left and but as far as the details go almost a year ago

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I was contacted by people that I didn't know and they had brought up a relationship that I had which started five years ago and they said that there were things that happened in that relationship most of what they alleged was false and some of what they alleged was indeed true but what they had done is they took these false allegations and the true ones and they shared them with dear friends of mine who are quite influential in the

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Christian community and they said to me that if you do not end your ministry we will go public and these people are you know these friends of mine are fully behind this exposition of you of being whatever and if you don't if you don't step down immediately we're going to destroy you destroy your minute what you know whatever the case was and I said to these to this fellow

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I said look um you're not my authority the people that you contacted are not my authority either you have to get in touch with my pastor and I gave him my pastor's information and my pastor sat down with the pastor that I was dealing with in Texas and my session and they thought based on the accusation that they had heard which

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I hadn't even seen like the actual accusation from the person I hadn't seen and I didn't actually see it for actually over a month but they said that I should come home and the statement that I posted on Facebook was that I was disqualified from ministry and what

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I want to say is a statement that I posted was verbatim what my pastor asked me to post I wanted to say so much more but I was not allowed to and as much as that bothered me at the time in retrospect

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I'm very thankful for the Lord you know he works wonderfully because one thing that I think that if I had said more then it would have appeared as though I was giving a defense against that which was true and that I was not repentant of that which was true and so the fact that I didn't say anything a lot of people came to my defense a lot of people who know the details and I know that you know the details as well came to my defense and that's why again why

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I want to thank Eli because you have been there from the beginning I mean we've talked we've had conversations and it's been really wonderful but so this was about a relationship that I had now one thing

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I want to as well say to the people you know who have followed me who have loved me through this and I'm so thankful for that but I want to tell people and the reason that I want to give this little bit of detail it's not in defense because I am guilty of that which

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I'm guilty and I'm 100 % responsible of that which I'm guilty of but you know there are people who thought that my sin occurred while I was out doing my apologetics work that I might be doing a talk one day or debate one day and then go and sin the next day that was not the case this woman that I had met and many of you know and it was not my last relationship you know she was actually wonderful during this process although our relationship had ended prior to that but so this the accusation this woman that I had met

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I had given up my apologetics work to marry her we were in a committed relationship that does not excuse our sin at all it does not excuse our sin but we were in a committed relationship and we sinned we failed sexually morally we failed and we repented of it at the time in tears and that is not to give anybody license to sin it was wicked and and and I think you know

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I can sympathize with people who think that fornication deserves a permanent disqualification from ministry

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I sympathize with that but one thing I want to state is that I'm not a pastor and I'm not an elder and I'm not a deacon and I submit that I want people to show me in Scripture why me as a and as somebody who answers apologetic questions or defends the faith in the public forum cannot do this after a sin that I've repented of and I I can sympathize with people who believe that that's the case but I submitted 100 % to my session my session called me back to Canada and the process was actually quite long you know they were doing investigation they were looking into allegations and I think that they were satisfied that the allegation that the majority of them were not true but the fornication was indeed true and they wrestled with whether I was barred permanently from doing anything with apologetics and you know if they had said that from the beginning clearly people who know what's going on they didn't see the statement from my pastor or the session from the beginning that that that was the case so they wrestled with it and then sadly shortly after my session actually was removed from the church there was a statement made that I was no longer repented they don't they'd already given the public statement that I had repented and there was a bit of a blow -up at my church and it was a really a sad situation still a sad situation but then it was handed over to the new session and the new pastor and the blow up in my church had nothing to do with my situation but I sat down with the new pastor new session and they were very kind and you know they loved me and they they went through this as well and they affirmed that I was repented of this sin from you know however many years ago and so I mean

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I was already restored from the previous session and they they gave a statement recently and I'm actually on I have built a website in which

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I gave a defense of the false accusations but I haven't shared publicly and I have no intention of sharing that publicly if you go to Proverbs 1817 .com

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that's Proverbs 1817 .com slash statement you can see the statement from my pastor and session from the last meeting that I am restored now as far as how ministry looks going forward first of all the one thing about my denomination is that what

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I do is not technically ministry because I'm not ordained so I am just a regular member of my church

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I'm not a pastor I'm not a deacon so the question is can you prevent regular members from going on YouTube and making a video or evangelizing and somebody pulls out a camera and making the video now there are some people who would argue that biblically that I'm disqualified from doing that and I sympathize with that I simply disagree with it and you know they might cite that the elder and deacon which

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I am NOT needs to be beyond report or approach but I submit that that cannot mean without sin because then nobody could be an elder or deacon now one thing

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I shared with my previous pastor if that means I'm disqualified permanently from being an elder or a deacon although I would disagree with that I can sympathize with that but so with my church now

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I'm a member in good standing and I asked my pastor specifically if I could have this conversation online about doubt and yeah he was actually enthusiastic about me going online now

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Eli you're a dear friend and a dear brother you might get people come out and say no Si you should be out of the scene permanently you know

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I sympathize that you might get you know even these friends of mine who have some influence might come out with a public statement that's fine

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I mean they can do that and I what I don't know people are what

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I shared with these people is to is that they will never be my enemy sure and um and the thing is people cannot make me feel worse about myself than I already do you know that's what

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Spurgeon said when people speak ill of you don't be angry because you're far worse than anything they can allege and I believe that to be the case and people have said well what is your engagement with atheists gonna look like in the future when they bring up this sin of yours and you know even my pastor he said because they had a website they had a email address available for anybody to email and with any if there any other allegations which there were none by the way it was this isolated incident and he said how should

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I respond to these people I said share the gospel with them I said a wonderful opportunity to show what sin repentance and restoration looks like and I believe that's the case as well so if I go to a university campus and engage unbelievers and they bring this instance up I have no problem with that I mean prior to my the this apologetic where I call it now absolute apologetics prior to that I used to call it sinner ministries and it was that I was engaging sinners is that I was the sinner and my logo was a big eye with a plank in it and then people said well you're not a sinner anymore and they said technically you're a saint who sins and so I changed the name of the ministry but I mean you cannot speak worse of me than I already feel about myself so you know that doesn't bother me if people want to go online and say

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I'm this I'm that but I have a passion for sharing my faith I have a passion for teaching explaining to Christians how to share their faith biblically at that if they feel that you know because of my sin they don't want to hear from me anymore they don't want me to talk to them that's fine but most of my

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Facebook friends for example have been 100 % behind me and I want to I want don't want to share the name of the family on whose property

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I'm now but they have been incredible for me they have been so loving and so kind and I really don't know what

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I would have done without them so if their watch end up watching this I want to know how much I love them and thank them for this and a lot of this you know my patreon friends and my patron friends actually they've supported me through all this and well 25 % of them have and and I and the people who have left my patron support you know

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I I don't you know because one thing that I said from the beginning is I never want to be a charity case so when

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I do apologetics I want people to support me for the work that I do and the Lord has said no you're gonna be a charity case so I hope that that's not the case for for the future but my patron friends know that this is not the only struggle

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I have in my life but I like looked after my mother for many years and after she passed away well she decided to leave the estate to me the estate you know that's just the name of it doesn't mean that it's a huge amount but four of my six siblings decided to sue me for my estate for it for my mother's estate

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I should say okay that case is ongoing it was actually supposed to be heard last month and because of Covid pushed to October so you know it's it's been a roller coaster and it's been tough but one thing

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I want you to tell I want to tell you is that God is good throughout all of this my faith never wavered and one thing that I want to share with people who said that the biggest struggle that I've had in my

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Christian walk throughout my life other than complacency is the idea that God loves me and this struggle this this more than anything else has shown me that God does in fact love me because he could have left me alone he could have left me doing my apologetics talks you know around North America he could have left me with the support that I was getting but he said no so you're coming home and I and I'm gonna put you through this try and I don't want to make it sound as though God is putting me through this trial

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I'm 100 % responsible for my sin that ended me in this trial sure and when I read scripture to I think of the trials of Job and people like that and I can't relate to that because they were righteous people and I know what

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I am you know I just I just it did not affect my faith even the day that I got the phone call from these people that I don't know the day that I got that phone call it was filled with I believe were you know many false accusations of course some true ones

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I got on my knees that night and I thank God not only in the trial but for it

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I don't know what he's doing and I don't I may never know what he's doing and it may be that I'm ostracized by the

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Christian community from now on doesn't matter to me I love Lord and for people who think that this has shaken my faith it hasn't it's only strengthened it and so um you know experientially as far as that goes

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I'm very thankful to God for you know allowing me to go through and like this was years ago and I think

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I already shared with you but I was not I gave up my apologetics work and I didn't resume the apologetics work until after this sin was dealt with and one thing

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I want to share for it with anybody who happens to be in some kind of sin I never shared it with my pastor I mean

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I was out of the country too but I never shared it with the passion in the session because it's really embarrassing when you embarrassing and I grew up in a community where that wasn't done and I have a dear friend actually where they often speak of their sins publicly to the church and people are revolted by it and I'm thinking man how how much that would have helped me even not to fall into sin for one but to not have the problem four years later when this let this sin was brought up if I had already shared it with my pastor in my session so if anybody's involved with it

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I know it's a very difficult thing but share it with your pastor in your session the session in the Presbyterian Church is the elders and the pastor so I don't encourage them to do that and I know

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I've been rambling for quite a while and I probably said more than I wanted to say but um

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I just want to reiterate again is that redundant I think it's probably done I want to reiterate online have meant so much to me and notes of encouragement have meant so much to me over this time and I love them and if I am ever able to get into the

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US again and again it has nothing to do with my ordeal my situation has to do with the fact that you have to show proof of vaccination to cross the border and I'm not one person who's gonna say that I'm on Vax or whether I'm Vax but I believe that there's a right to privacy you know with regards that people can figure it out anyways you know what

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I am but currently if you cannot prove vaccination you cannot get into the

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US you know things are happening in Canada now with this trucker convoy and you know for people who are watching this it's it's been amazing but I encourage people not to put their trust in the convoy or in the government and put their trust in God and I think

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God can and is using this but I have no idea where where it will turn but if it is the case that I can travel to the

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US again in my current state without having to disclose vaccination status then I hope to go back to the

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US especially where it's a little bit warmer and not necessarily to do ministry not necessarily to do public speaking because I don't even know if the

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Lord has that in the future for me I don't know if that's something I'll do but what I want to do is meet people who have been with me from the beginning we want to be them and thank them for their continued support because part of it like I don't say that I have depression but I think that that because of this and the response of this that the way

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I felt is very akin to the symptoms of depression because I have patrons and followers and friends have been supporting me and I haven't been updating them because I haven't felt like it because it's very disheartening so the fact that you have me on here today is um you know one of the nicest things that has happened for quite a while other people have asked and I've kind of put them off for a while because Eli I wanted to be on your show first because because of your regular phone calls and your regular support and your trust and your understanding and I should add that for all of those who put their trust in me first of all you know that's a mistake don't you put your trust in man but I want to apologize to you

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I want to apologize to you for my failing and you know

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I hope and I pray that the Lord will keep me steadfast going forward and yeah and I guess that would my statement and hopefully that gives people enough details and if people want to email me directly and and ask for more details or you know something that that would be fine but I'm hoping that after this that I can just refer to this video and people can watch it you know as far as my response goes because I want to put it behind me and if those who are against me want to make a big deal of it

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I hope and pray that I won't have to make a public defense of everything that's happened because I will

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I should I shouldn't say that I will I would talk to my session and they would probably dissuade me from doing it but I would just prefer that that if these people just leave it alone let's go for and but I'm not afraid

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I trust the Lord you know in my future however that's going to look whoever's gonna have me speak or do anything

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I trust the Lord in that and you know I respect those who think that I shouldn't and I just respectfully disagree with them but I'm open to the to the argument open to the discussion but I am under the authority of my session right now and I'm in good standing with my church you think about it whether you know before this all this stuff happened you had people talking bad about you anyway before this happened

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I remember I had you on you were like well come on but if you want to lose some subscribers you're gonna hate you might as well just roll with it man that's something

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I come up with my session as well they actually cited an atheist website who had said something I said they said this stuff about me before you know it doesn't bother me at all and you know the thing is

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I've shared this with people before but I would go to a conference and I see the good -looking speaker get up there and up you know they show a slide of their beautiful wife and their beautiful kids and they gush about it and I have no problem with that but I'm also sitting there thinking why should

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I live in to you why should I listen to you your life is perfect you know and and so you know if people engage me they could say well his life isn't perfect it's been tough and you know

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I of course I don't share the same kind of trials that other people have I have hope there are people who have lost loved ones even you know because of the virus and because of the vaccine

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I get that and there's hope in Christ but there's people who have lost things forever you know

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I trust the Lord going forward but you know people can look at me and say well he went through all that and he still loves the

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Lord you know and I'm not saying that that's something that's gonna persuade them because always the work of the Holy Spirit but you know yeah

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I used to think too if you get somebody who's speaking on drug addiction you got somebody who's never been on drugs you think why should

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I listen to you man hmm but the people have been through the trial and I hope when I talk to unbelievers as well unbelievers who are in unrepentant sin can know that there's a

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Savior and that they can be free of their sin hmm well thank you so much for sharing that I just looking at the comments there everyone seems to be in support of seeing you again and they understand and it's easy to understand because all of us have sinned all of us stick around brother stick around see if they're all in support but no

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I like I say these people have been they've been wonderful yeah I'm not gonna lie people on this channel the comments that have been pretty cool and you have every now and then you have you know person take a jab here and there but for the most part

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I I want to say thank you for people who watch whether you're a believer an unbeliever thank you for your engagement and being respectful for the most part and and even just having scion

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I see a lot of people just giving so much support so we're glad you're back we don't know what that means as you said but you know hopefully

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God's will is that he will continue to use you I know that the reason why a lot of people support you is because you have impacted them by God's grace of course you've impacted them in powerful ways through your ministry so I'm sure people are very appreciative of that and are ready to be open and understanding hopefully but what glad to have you on and thank you for sharing that and so without without further ado then so you guys got you got all of the the info there and you can rewatch the the first 25 minutes of this video to get kind of the full length explanation there as to where he's been and what he's been going through and if you want to you know share your support you can share them in the comments you can message him

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I'm sure he'd be encouraged by that but without further ado let's jump into some apologetics okay now

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I gotta be careful all right because sigh is a very practical guy so I'll ask him a complicated question and I'm thinking that my question is gonna is gonna provide the foundation for this expanded conversation you know and sometimes he's just that's the answer and I'm like alright okay kind of like how can

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I know that that God exists right you would say what how would you say sigh if someone said that how can

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I know if God exists I would say you do know that God exists I was thinking

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I was actually shared with the family that I'm with here the other day a story that I used to buy the book mere

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Christianity in bulk and you know there were some very good things and there's some things that I would now disagree with but I used to hand it out in bulk and I remember

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I was at work one day and one of the guy he's quite a clown and you know we had a lot of laughs together and I kept trying to give him mere

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Christianity and he would never take it and one day I said to him well if you have a wobbly table just stick it under one of the legs and maybe one day you want to pull it out and read it and this guy like I say he always clowned around but he got real serious and he looked me in the eye he said

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I will never take that book and I said to him why not and he said because I'm afraid it's true hmm and I wasn't a presupposition at the time but if I was

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I would have said no you know it's true hmm yeah see you got those you dropped those bombs bro and it's like what do you what do you say it's like hey but but here but there is a main question that I wanted to address now first I want to ask you the the question related to the main topic we want to discuss and then perhaps we can talk about how because because I've actually had private conversations with classical apologists

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I'm some good friends who are respectful of the presuppositional approach they kind of see the value in it but then they're kind of someone brought up to me what like how do you deal with people who are doubting it seems like you have such a certainty that there's no room for sympathetic you know people to be sympathetic towards people who are struggling with with doubt and so yeah it looks good when you're arguing and you have all this confidence and certainty but how do you engage the

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Christian who is who is struggling and we do know that people struggle for various reasons and things like that so I would like to address the main topic of the thumbnail and then maybe perhaps go into a more practical application as to how someone with a presuppositional mindset applies the biblical teaching to someone who is a believer but comes to you with these questions of doubt and things like that so maybe we can kind of take it from there so the name of this video was why doubting requires

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God and that sounds weird but why is it the case if someone says you know

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I doubt that God exists how would you show that the fact that they're doubting actually requires the

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God that they're doubting yeah I would say as far as a Christian expressing a doubt like that that's very problematic because if they doubt the existence of God then it turns out that they're the judge of whether he exists or not and so people who are true believers

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I think you know that they can be a plagued by something like this in which you know they still profess belief in God but that there's so much pressure from the outside that you know they might express a doubt that they don't really have and I think that when

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I share the fundamentals of doubt with them for some of them it's very comforting and for others

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I've shared this foundation of doubt with them it's not been comforting at all I'm not saying that they are not believers but I find it very problematic when you know

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I share this with them and it does not provide some comfort because I would submit that the doubt in that scripture talks about is not about the existence of God it's about the providence of God so when people doubt the existence of God you know

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I would submit that that is problematic because they are elevating themselves over God that they are they are the authority on whether or not he exists but one thing

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I like to share with them I like to break down the constituents of doubt and I know it's a philosophical argument but I would say well first of all scripture says that everyone knows for certain that God exists

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I say what is necessary for doubt if you doubt something you're doubting the truth of something or I guess the falsity of something you're doubting a fact you're doubting the truth of something when you doubt something you're using logic you are employing logic to whether to find out whether or not this fact is true or not and you're also depending on the uniformity of nature if anything can happen then there's no reason to doubt anything because anything can happen so you're so those are only three elements truth logic and the uniformity of nature and those who follow you know the work that I've done know that each of those elements require

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God you cannot make sense of the concept of truth if you're if we're just evolved pond scum not make sense of universal abstract invariant laws of logic without God and you cannot make sense of the uniformity of nature without God the fact that the future will be like the past none of those things can be made sense of without God so the the constituents of doubt require

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God so when I tell people that if you are a doubting God do you know what you're doing you're actually borrowing from God to doubt him you cannot doubt

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God without the foundation of God now some people might suppress the truth about that foundation but it is there and when people realize that for some people has been very comforting and for some people it does nothing for so okay so and now this is a big criticism that I often hear and I have heard about you when you make those comments is that it's well no well

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I mean I get criticized for no I'm kidding just in my state so a presuppositional list will be accused of making assertions so it's very easy and I and I keep telling presuppositional list we need to learn to go beyond this

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I mean obviously we don't have time to go into the details and unpack every aspect of this but we need to go beyond the mere presuppositional platitudes like you know the truth of the

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Christian worldview is that without it you can't prove anything I believe that but saying it doesn't prove it so how would you begin to unpack someone who says hey sigh

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I'm doubting and then you say well the the doubt what's required the preconditions for the intelligibility of your doubting requires these other things how would you kind of unpack and connect the dots for someone who who's struggling with doubt and show that they are in fact borrowing from God to even engage in their doubting how would you unpack what that looks like and why that's the case for the person well as far as a

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Christian saying something like that and I get emails along that line or I've gotten emails along that line and what

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I often ask them I say well what does your pastor say about because I'm not a pastor I want to reiterate I'm not a pastor and I am unqualified to give pastoral advice and a lot of these questions for Christians are pastoral questions okay and a lot of people say to me well well

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I don't have a pastor you know I just so you contacted a stranger online to talk about your doubt

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I think your problem is not that your problem is that you need to find a sound church and you need to talk to pastor about this but then

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I will share with them the constituents of doubt you know I'll say first of all the scriptures say that you know the Bible says that everyone is certain that God exists and then

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I was you know show them up but let's look at what doubt is you're doubting the truth of something you're using logic depending on the uniformity of nature and I might explain those things to people

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I say that all of those things require God and why that's my question so okay for example truth the very concept of truth

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I asked you know I'll ask people on the street where to get truth from without God and they'll say well

32:26

I get truth from evolution and again this is philosophical because I think and I find that women are very good at this well this is what the

32:32

Bible says the Bible says that you need it and the more that I do this especially you know with the trials I've been through the more

32:37

I get away from the philosophy and I appreciate there are people that explain these things and you know I but the more that I do this the less

32:44

I'm likely to do because they're not going to be on there with their head of their pillow thinking about the philosophy at night but you know as far as the explanation goes

32:50

I don't mind giving the explanation if people have an evolutionary worldview then what are our brains our brains are basically evolved meat computers meat machines and what are our thoughts our thoughts are the the product of the firing of the synapses in your brain you know it's a electrical chemical reaction

33:09

Doug Wilson actually has a really good experiment or a thought experiment he says imagine getting a bottle of Mountain Dew in a bottle of Dr.

33:16

Pepper and shaking them up and opening them and watching them fizz and you'll say which of those fizzes is true and I actually said this to people on the street they say well it's just fizz neither of them are true

33:26

I said well according to an evolutionary worldview you're fizzing atheistically and I'm fizzing theistically and you want to say that my fizz is false and your fizz is true so you're actually borrowing from the

33:38

God that you know exists in order to criticize my world you're borrowing truth from God because you cannot be you cannot make sense of the concept of truth without God so I would just show that you know their worldview just cannot justify that and you know are we are just as justified as scripture so now okay so what would you say because because I would imagine someone would say you know if you say everyone is certain that God exists and someone's like no but I I'm trying to believe sigh

34:05

I I there's a doubt in me I don't know if God exists how would how would you address that you know obviously people would would say things along those lines right

34:14

I'm trying to who tried to refute you a lot years ago I made a video and they say it was a terrible argument but they they said something to the effect that the number one way to disprove a presuppositional list who says that everyone's certain that God exists is just to tell them

34:32

I'm not certain like you can't you you're not privy to my internal thought life so I don't know

34:38

God exists refuted you know how would you engage that it's like the number one way to prove that you're in speeding down the highways tell the cop you weren't speeding you know it doesn't doesn't make much sense but if you know and I actually

34:52

I watched our previous encounter just prior to coming on here so I didn't repeat a lot of things but you know some of it like I'm not a man of many words but if somebody says that they don't know that God exists

35:03

I say well the Bible says you do you know and there's a fellow actually a dear fellow a

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Christian a friend of mine that I met through really miraculous circumstances but he went to school for four years to become a biologist so he could be a better apologist he loved the

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Lord so much and he saw his grandfather who grew up learning to read by reading the

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Bible he never spent a day of school in his life and people would say don't to his grandfather

35:31

I don't believe your Bible his grandfather would say you must believe the Bible that's foolish not to believe the Bible and he said he was sitting in university watching his grandfather and saying how naive his grandfather was he says now after we became a presupposition as he says he realizes his grandfather was doing it right the whole time you know because one thing

35:48

I tell me when I taught apologetics is I don't teach people how to defend their faith I teach them how not to and if I have to give an argument to to justify the preconditions of intelligibility then

36:00

I think you know which I did quite often and like when I hear people who have learned from me doing that on the street makes me want to throw up because I say

36:07

I don't think that the Apostle Peter would be talking about the preconditions of intelligibility if he was talking to an unbeliever so you know

36:12

I will state biblical truth to them the Bible says you know and you know I might

36:17

I remember I think I was I might have mentioned on the last show but I was in a park here a number of years ago and this fellow was talking with an unbeliever for quite some time and I was within earshot and he was using this you know site and brink a presuppositional methodology and they're going on for about half an hour

36:35

I was listening and my stomach was turning because he sounded just like me and I want to throw up and he was having difficulty in the conversation so he called me over and I looked the unbeliever in the eye

36:44

I said so why do you hate God he said I don't hate God and then we talked about that but the conversation changed immediately because most of this

36:53

I learned from philosophers and you know I don't doubt that they engage people on the street but I never heard them engaging people on the street so what

37:01

I learned in the philosophy lectures I would take on the street and philosophize with people talk about epistemology they have no idea what you're talking about so you know

37:08

I I want to be able to share the faith with people that if the Apostle Peter was standing beside me he wouldn't be tapped me on the shoulder and say what are you talking about sure but and I we spoke about this before and I agree with what you're saying because what

37:23

I see you doing is taking what you've learned and contextualizing it to the person you most likely would be engaging he'd be engaging with so I get it

37:34

I'm not I don't see you saying Oh philosophy that's too complicated to leave it over there I think you do value what that brings to the broader system right but in terms of the everyday person you're gonna be engaging it you're not gonna be talking about those things and so I think that's probably why you take the approach that more direct approach however if you know

37:54

Vantill when people read Vantill I got some some Vantill over there I was flipping through the introduction to systematic theology here's a spoiler alert it's not an introduction it's pretty complicated although it's probably one of his one of his best books that and defense of the faith but be that as it may one might read

38:18

Vantill and say I don't understand what he's talking about he uses weird words he's bringing in these different you know conversation partners and philosophy but Vantill I know that you know this spoke the way that he did because he needed to speak the language of the philosophers because that is who he was engaging right so the average person on the street is not going to be a philosopher and so you're gonna talk to them in a different way the truths you're saying are still the same but you're gonna you're not gonna be using the language however going deeper with the philosopher

38:56

I think sometimes it is necessary and so it is important to kind of have your feet in both worlds being able to simplify it and really just strike to the heart of the conversation and then also be able to grapple with some of those bigger concepts and show yeah no you're borrowing from the

39:14

Christian world you even when you're super smart you think you're not so I think there is a place for for both of those things because I think it's important when you say that's not what the

39:25

Bible says that's true but that's not just a bare assertion you can demonstrate if the context was provided you can demonstrate why that's not what the

39:36

Bible says is relevant to the discussion it's not just an assertion without grounding what would you agree with that or I know

39:46

I I suppose I would agree with it but with my experience of engaging people even people you know of the higher academic learning that a lot of time it's you know they're looking for me who's not a philosopher to slip up so that they can bolster their unbelief sure so you know and I think that I have engaged people in the past but I'm not a philosopher

40:07

I'm not a logician and as you know I'm a factory worker I'm a boiler operator by trade you know which is no you're a dude with a website yeah but I think you know

40:17

I think there are things that we can have in our back pockets the problem is that there are people who have this in their back pocket but they use it all the time and and they don't get and I know

40:27

I shared on the last show that if people say well say how do you get to the gospel from here and I would hear that so often then

40:33

I and I thought I'm doing it wrong if they have to ask me how to get to the gospel from here because I think that the proper apologetics should be a gospel proclamation and I know since I just listened to your show the previous one but I remember an instance in England when

40:48

I was doing some witnessing on the streets there and my friend Robert Gray who was engaging a couple of philosophy students it was like there were actually a couple a man and a woman and I had approached the group and he was saying that I would pray

41:01

I was praying that you'd come here it was you know one of the greatest experiences of my life actually that it was it was really cool but I talked about on the last show but they had many philosophical objection to the truth of Christianity and I dealt with all of them presupposition

41:14

Lee philosophically and they seemed quite satisfied with my answers and then I gave them back to Robert and Robert shared the gospel with them and as I said in the last show

41:24

I said you know Robert said sigh I really wish that I could do what you do and I said Robert when they put their head on their pillow tonight what are they gonna be thinking about are they gonna be thinking about what

41:34

I shared with them the philosophy are they gonna be thinking about what you shared with them and Robert you know he's one of my dearest friends he nodded knowingly that they were gonna think about what

41:44

Robert shared with them you don't have to be able to do what I do and I think a lot of times is a detriment now

41:49

I'm glad that people you know study these things because I want to know them for myself you know and I want to have these things in my back pocket but the more that I do this the more that I find that I've been spinning my wheels and what

42:02

I've been trying to do actually is trying to take out the middleman the years of being out there engaging people and spinning my wheels and to get to a you know a sounder gospel proclamation and what

42:13

I found is that it's almost impossible to cut out the middleman that people almost have to experience it themselves you know in order to realize the futility of it now is there a place for it sure but I'm you know the fact that people are engaged in that I am just not interested in it anymore for me it's a waste of time and I appreciate that for people it's not a waste of time and of course you know there's things that I'm interested in learning but when

42:38

I see these philosophical people arguing with what scripture calls a fool you cannot make sense of anything we're doing exactly what the evidentialist does you know rather than you know the evidential is being duped by giving evidential arguments to try to prove to the person that God exists and the presuppositions is duped by philosophy to trying to convince them that God exists rather than being consistent with the scripture that they know and share the truth of Christ with them because they could get hit by a bus you know so um

43:06

I'm not saying that that field is not important it's just I'm not interested in it so okay so when people might be listening to you and you're saying stuff like scripture and then you're saying philosophy as though those are diametrically separate how do you understand the relationship between Bible theology and philosophy because I know some people see it differently some people would say hey you need philosophy but philosophy of course is within the boundaries of scripture so you can do philosophy biblically and so in that case there's nothing wrong with using philosophical terms

43:48

I mean philosophical vocabulary can just be a more sophisticated way of capturing a biblical truth with respect to say a metaphysical question or an epistemological question how do you understand the relationship between I think that I think that's fair but the problem that I that I see for myself is that a pop a lot of people say this is a biblical argument doesn't sound like a biblical argument it doesn't sound like a biblical argument it sounds like a philosophical argument now if people want to say that this philosophical argument is derived from scripture

44:17

I'm all ears I say go nuts you know it's probably way over my head but if you use biblical truth you're using the laws of logic in order to expound those biblical truths to people so you know philosophical views that might be the case as well but the problem that I've seen is that a lot of these arguments that are supposedly biblically derived don't sound anything like it and you know and that's what

44:38

I tell even evidentialist I say I don't care what you call the apologetic methodology if you can show me how you share evidence with an unbeliever in a way that honors

44:45

God I say go nuts I'm opposed to that like I if an evidentialist came to me and say say

44:51

I don't give them evidence to convince him that God exists I give evidence to expose or suppression of the truth

44:57

I say praise God it's just that I not run into anybody that does that see when you see

45:02

I've had conversations with people and say well I don't you know I don't think man is neutral I think man knows

45:09

God and when I present evidence you know I don't assume those things and I'm like all right cool you're a presuppositionalist who uses evidence presuppositionalist that's fair people say

45:21

I do believe that the problem is that when their apologetic is inconsistent with that and that was my case as well

45:27

I can't tell you like before I became a presuppositionalist how often I read Romans one and then went out and tried to prove that God exists to people so I you know

45:36

I believed it in my head but I was not consistent with that belief that I believe that to be the case but I never took it to heart you know and so by the grace of God you know

45:46

I believe what his word says and if people can give evidences or philosophical arguments being consistent with Scripture and not denying the facts of Scripture I say go crazy

45:57

I who am I and that's you know with all of this is going on who am I you know I'm trying to do the best that I can in the service of my

46:05

Lord and engaging unbelievers and talking to believers who am I you know I and that's one thing

46:11

I say I got that from my friend Tony Meano you know when he does a lecture he says I don't want you to approach this with an open mind approach it with an open book and that's what

46:20

I want people to do with me as well you know if they disagree with anything I say anything at all come to me with Scripture because that's my authority okay so I hear you so I'm trying to understand how you understand the relationship though how philosophy fits in so like if the

46:38

Bible uses logic I mean because language presupposes logic wouldn't it be fair game to use logic and fit whatever content in logic right in argumentation and that can be considered consistent with biblical categories you can do it without being neutral you know anything like using deductive arguments and all like deduction and induction those are the words don't appear in the

47:07

Bible but we can see examples of that so so when we do use those sorts of arguments

47:12

I'm just trying to understand why it seems like you call that like philosophy but I want to stick over here it seems like they're all together does that make sense yeah so here's my question to what end to what end yeah well

47:26

I mean I would say that arguments can help expose more clearly and succinctly the knowledge of God that the person suppressing so yeah yeah so yeah so kind of like my authority to go nuts you know you don't need my authority for that but I just know the type of arguments that turn my stomach that people seem to be you know not being in tandem with Scripture but making an argument wholly apart from Scripture and you know anything when people are converted they have to be converted to something you know they're converted when they're converted to something they're converted to the gospel the truth of the gospel and I don't see that in many philosophical it can be there and people can do that and go now who am

48:08

I to criticize like I say this is what I do this is what I do when I engage people and I don't do it well and I fail but I think for a lot of people who don't share their faith at all and don't know how to that I think that this method is comforting to them and like I say you know because if I need to be encouraged to share my faith or to tell people how to share their faith all

48:32

I have to do is watch 90 % of the videos out there if not more of people engaging unbelievers talking about a

48:37

God I don't believe in and so I mean it's just that a lot of these philosophical arguments seem to indicate that God is not necessary for them and sure you know

48:50

I like I said I'm the priest of Nazi you know and I grew up in a

48:55

Christian home and you know I talked about complacency as well that that's an issue too when you can't stay at a time when you don't know that Jesus is your

49:03

Lord but one thing that that also afforded me is a respect for the

49:08

Lord of course whenever I sin you know that that you know that there's also a slap in the face of that respect but I respect the

49:15

Lord enough that when I hear an argument that seems to dishonor him it makes my skin crawl now people can do that people can do that effectively and the

49:23

Lord has used that to save people I just don't like it I got you now I want to get a little more into doubt but let's take a couple of questions there's some fun ones here so Alyssa Scott asks question asks

49:37

I to give an example of a philosophical argument that so so let's make you steals your stomach turn when you say some arguments make your stomach turn what do you mean by that so folks can kind of see okay yeah

49:50

I can understand you know why he says that hmm yeah well

49:55

I don't know I really can't think of any examples but for instance the the very foundation of the presuppositional argument

50:05

I think a lot of people they say that incorrectly you know they say God is a necessary precondition for logic you know there is or for intelligibility there is intelligibility therefore

50:17

God exists now that is a well and good argument but I think that it also misses something you know so I might have that first premise

50:24

God is the necessary precondition for intelligibility as he has revealed in his word you know and people don't like that but I'm not there to make them like that you know because the

50:34

Bible is my foundation so I think that these arguments that are devoid of the scriptural backing you know they're valid they're true you know a lot of the evidential arguments are good some of them are terrible but you know when

50:47

I find them devoid of the authority of Scripture then I don't like them okay Victory Street ministry said says

50:55

Paul wasn't strictly presupp in act 17 he was an evidentialist well we beg to differ how could you how could you by the way if folks are interested let me see here

51:08

I have a copy here this is kind of the updated version of always ready oh great now if you throw out this entire book and just keep the appendix it's still worth the money the appendix of this book of who you know

51:22

Victory Street ministry whatever your real name is if you're interested if you get this book there is an appendix it's pretty extensive it's kind of it's pretty long

51:33

I think it's the longest section independent section in the book and the appendix is entitled the encounter of Jerusalem with Athens where dr.

51:41

Bonson goes into great detail as to why that's not the case which

51:49

I have he does there's a whole section on act 17 but you know I always find that interesting because I tell people you know it's the same

51:56

Paul that wrote Romans 1 that wrote acts you know sure you know and this is the question that I asked them

52:01

I say okay let's say Paul's about to go to Athens and just before he gets there a meteor hits

52:06

Athens and kills everybody there where would Paul say that they're going where would you say that they're going you know

52:13

Paul Romans 1 there without excuse right so it's not a different Paul who believed that they needed evidence to be convinced that God exists it's the same

52:21

Paul who wrote Romans chapter 1 it's for that they were without excuse for the suppression of the truth about the

52:26

God that they know all right here's another question it's it has to do with philosophy you can share your thoughts and I can

52:34

I could chime in because I have some thoughts on this as well and I think these questions come from not so much to put

52:40

God to the test I think people who who learn presuppositionalism and they see the power in it they also want to be able to explain to others why those criticisms don't work you know the justify that hey what we're doing is biblical here's your

52:53

Bible said I'm sorry let me step in there for a minute because I think this is and I'm not gonna say it's an error but when people say power of the apologetic and I might speak like that as well but it the apologetic has zero power and I know that you agree with that it's the power of the

53:08

Holy Spirit and he could use that argumentation but what I think when you argue presupposition it's not about the power of the apologetic it's being faithful so that even if it falls on deaf deaf ears at least you can walk away and say

53:20

I was faithful but the reason that it's powerful is because I believe it's faithful to the Word of God sorry no no worries no worries okay so here's the question so what would you guys say about the claim that presuppositionalism is influenced strongly by Kant's philosophy

53:34

Kant's thought all right do you have any thoughts on that and if so share them if not

53:39

I have thoughts on it no that that's fine I know that that bonds and often quoted

53:45

Kant but I don't care you know I I think like I say examine this with an open book see if it's biblical and you know the justification that I have for the apologetic it's not from Kant it's from Scripture now if people who came up with the formulation of certain arguments you know relied on Kant I don't know maybe they did maybe they didn't and you know and maybe in some way they did but I'm saying look at Scripture and I think you also have his book presuppositional apologetics stated and defended

54:14

I remember a friend of mine he was interested in the apologetic and he read a book on evidential apologetics and one a presuppositional apologetics by Bonson and he said the evidential book he was like almost through the book more than halfway through the book not one scripture verse and Bonson's book it was loaded from the first page with Scripture references and I think you know that that's really the difference that I don't care you know where their influence is a formulation of some of their arguments the basis must be in Scripture otherwise

54:40

I'm not interested mm -hmm gotcha yeah I would say that it's it's it's influenced by Kant but not in the way that the critics want to make it so for example as we may mentioned before has

54:52

I was mentioned that Psy is does a really good job at contextualizing the apologetic to bring to kind of like the person the person you're most likely going to engage with you understand you watch

55:03

YouTube and you hear the interactions and the arguments in the debates that's not what normally happens with the average

55:10

Christian right you can't have a YouTube debate apologetics mindset and think that that's the way your conversations are gonna go on the street so it is important to contextualize what you're listening to on YouTube you know that a lot of helpful content out there you want to contextualize it so that you can you can speak to the people that God has placed in your life but Vant Hill was a philosopher and so the language he uses the people that he's interacting with are the philosophies of Kant the theologies of Barth I mean this is the reason why he tends to use for example the language of philosophical idealism he's been accused of being an idealist he wasn't but that was the language he spoke because those were the types of people he was speaking to if you are interested in kind of more detail as to why he wasn't a

56:00

Kantian or a an idealist you can read from Vant Hill's own work defense of the faith or you can go to analogical thoughts dr.

56:09

James Anderson has some you know some articles there where he unpacks why Vant Hill uses that language but is not himself guilty of adopting you know idealistic philosophy okay all right let's see here there was something here

56:25

Victory Street ministry says real apologetics please let's I know

56:30

I love him as a brother in Christ how can we donate to help him get on his feet I'm not sure if you're taking donations or there's a place you can point people to but if there is feel free to give a quick commercial as to how people could help you out if you're looking for that sort of help well

56:46

I'm again I'm humbled by that and like I say I have not been doing any there's the first thing I've done in almost a year and you know my living situation is such that I don't know if I'll be putting out a lot of content or any for the next little while I hope to still do some interviews the thing is

57:04

I will go out and evangelize when that I mean it's cold up in Canada now I have a new a new to me vehicle that needs a lot of work before I can put it on the road but once that's the case

57:15

I hope to travel again if I can't go to the States and through Canada and I do want to evangelize again and I do appreciate

57:21

I mean there's been a number of people who have supported me this whole time and you know there was even thought that I should cancel my patreon because of this and I didn't you know

57:31

I hope and sin for that but I didn't but I believe that the Lord has used that to support me to sustain me during this time and I'm very thankful for it my patron is patreon .com

57:42

slash side 10 B and I have a when as well as contact that proof that God exists org and like I say

57:50

I'm humbled by it I'm thankful for it and can you can you say that patreon one more time slowly if someone's trying to like get a sticky pad and jot it down patreon .com

58:02

slash site and be s y e t e n b .com and if you call a number on the bottom of the screen we will send you a special vial of water from the

58:13

Jordan River you could annoy at the four corners of your house and prosperity will come your way and I'm just kidding all right

58:18

Scott Terry thank you so much for $20 super chat man I love this quote nothing in my hand

58:24

I bring simply to thy cross I cling I love hearing redemption stories and people coming now it's it's tempting to just want to hear the dirt on someone right just for the sake of hearing like oh what happened but I have to say when

58:40

I do see someone expose kind of the details of their sin and how they've been restored it is very encouraging obviously we shouldn't seek to want to know everyone's business but when someone is as transparent as you've been just lay it out there people have seen you from a perspective like man it's sigh and he got into some some issues here

58:59

I think it's encouraging when people can hear some of those details you expressed and see that like the gospel lived out namely that we're all sinners and we all we all need the forgiveness of Christ and so you gave a wonderful example of what that looks like especially someone who was doing apologetics many people looked up to and you know you're human you're a sinner just like all of us we struggle and I think a lot of people resonate with with that struggle and appreciate your transparency so so yeah thank you for that thank you so much

59:31

Scott I appreciate that man Jacob Spears says love you sigh no matter what happened you have the support of your true brothers and sisters people fall have issues and sin you are honest open and confessing of what happened thank you for you preserving through the trial and praise

59:46

God for getting you through it amen yeah appreciative of that no

59:51

I'm I'm so thankful for that because yeah I you know I am I feel for other people who have gone through similar things and you know

01:00:00

I just hope that they've had the same kind of support that I have and like I say I you know I hope this is the end of it

01:00:06

I hope I never have to speak about it again you know I hope that those who there are people who clearly do not like me there are those who love me as well who feel that you know

01:00:14

I shouldn't even be on here now I think you're okay I think you're okay and I hope that you don't get any backlash from it but yeah and like I say

01:00:24

I'm not the one who's keeping things quiet you know I think it's important that the

01:00:29

Lord is honored in all of this and if it honors him better that this never hit the light of day like the the intimate details of it then that will be the case but if it needs to hit the light of day because yeah and I should probably

01:00:41

I should probably leave it at that because I want the Lord to be best honored I don't think he's honored with false accusation but again the problem is when

01:00:49

I defend myself against things that are false so often I've heard over this last year that it makes me sound unrepentant of the things that are true that's not the case

01:00:57

I know what I am I know what I did I know what I deserve and I have a wonderful Lord who who saved me and you know who's restored me and who loves me and who has provided me with a lot of dear loving friends who who love me as well friends who

01:01:13

I've never met and and that's you know and and that's one thing when I left and I you know

01:01:18

I still had my page up on Facebook for a day or so it's not that the support was 95 % or you know it was 100 % supportive you know now you know reading the comments on your page

01:01:30

I said I would say it's about 98 % supportive but when I left it was 100 % supportive and that meant so much to me it you know it

01:01:38

I was so thankful for that hmm well that's awesome Chad hominem says sigh thanks for coming back

01:01:46

I've been watching a lot of your content lately and I've been thinking about you my question is is every debate with atheists worth having

01:01:53

Chad hominem that's pretty good and it's not like ad hominem yeah I you know and I shared with it again the last time

01:02:03

I was on with you as well is that one of the biggest the compliments that I get from an atheist they're actually trying to insult me they say he didn't come to debate he just came to share the gospel or he just came to preach and I say amen so I would say that a lot of the debates are futile they're not worth it but a lot of times you will be able to share a gospel method message with people who will never darken the door of a church and I would say for that reason alone it's worth it but I think a lot of the debates and maybe even people see the engagements that I've had in the past have been far too philosophical and I would say if you can share the gospel with a number of people like that debate with Matt Delahunty has over a million views on YouTube alone and you know

01:02:45

I give a gospel presentation in there how that debate went you know that's for whoever watches it to decide but there's over a million people who have had a gospel present and that's on Facebook alone it's also been on other forums so I'm thankful for that but I would you know

01:03:00

I would say that many debates that I've seen have certainly not been worth it because first of all they haven't been debating for the

01:03:05

God that I believe in and they didn't honor him so um and what I encourage everybody to go into debate no absolutely not but if you can go there and you know get the platform and debate someone and share the gospel

01:03:18

I said you know amen mm -hmm thank you for that Alyssa says a question when you say they want you to slip up people who want you to slip up so that they can bolster their unbelief what does that look like um let's say okay

01:03:31

I gave an example it's an evidential example but that's the only one I could think of because it's one that I used to use it's when you're let's say arguing for the age of the earth and then they talk about something and you say well carbon -14 dating can only measure something within thousands of years and the person happens to be an expert on radiometric dating he says

01:03:50

I was talking about a different isotope I wasn't talking about the carbon isotope I talk about this and it can and then you're lost you know because you have an argument that that's you know well beyond your scope and yeah and I think what was the question so I mean you start talking about a field that you're not that familiar with because you have heard it repeated many times that carbon dating only measures things in the thousands of years and then they come up with something that that you know makes you look like an idiot because you're not versed in that so I you know if you if you make a mistake and I'll give you an other example that's that's closer to home and I wouldn't even think it's a mistake but in my debate with Matt Delahunty I gave a premise and I think it was about is is belief in God rational and I gave some premises that were really a tongue -in -cheek joke more than anything that I said it's reasonable to believe things that were true that are true it's true that God exists therefore it's reasonable believe that God exists and people eviscerated me for that syllogism when it was a tongue -in -cheek you know fun kind of thing so and so they focused on that rather than on the existence of God and you know that's what they're looking for they're looking for any kind of now yeah

01:05:02

I don't even know I think I still think it's a decent argument but I didn't mean it to be a decent sound argument I meant it you know it's true that God exists and that's what

01:05:10

I was saying you know and in a weird kind of way and I you know a person that you've actually recently when

01:05:16

I look at Eli's right there when you recently engaged he brought up that argument a Christian a professing Christian I should say brought up that argument and said how philosophically it was unsound

01:05:25

I said yeah I don't care I didn't really mean it for a sound argument it's like a tongue -in -cheek that God exists okay actually the person

01:05:32

I was debating actually did focus on the very thing I wanted him to focus on which was the second premise it's true that God exists hmm all right evolution false sigh is it true is it true that darts talking can bench press more copies of the defense of the faith do you bench press do you go to the gym at all no actually

01:05:53

I'm I told I shared with my patreon friends though but I was able to do to help a dear friend of mine with a renovation product

01:06:00

I do a plumbing and electrical and stuff like that and for about two months I was helping him renovate an apartment and I think

01:06:05

I lost about 20 pounds so that was great but no I don't see the point of lifting a weight for no purpose other than I'm glad that people do that I'm just not interested listen

01:06:18

I when I die I want to die with a donut in my hand and some snicker bars in my pocket you guys can sweat at the gym and you know you could drink all your healthy shakes

01:06:29

I'm gonna be chilling with my wife we're gonna be having some cheese crackers and cake it's gonna be awesome you would die

01:06:38

I'm a deniabetic so there you go question how do you explain to someone that's hearing this argument for the first time

01:06:45

I guess the presuppositional argument for the first time how it has to be the Christian God over the other gods now

01:06:52

I know what you're going to say because that's the only God that exists I know

01:06:57

I know I know but how because people even people who believe that like yes

01:07:04

I believe because it got it the God of Scripture is the only God that exists but how do you unfold that in a way that's like yes

01:07:13

I believe it but oh yeah okay so you connect this dot man I really I really see that like it's cool to have the conceptual explanation confirm what we believe and see how that fits to get what we know and how that fits together so that people are so indoctrinated into having an argument that concludes the

01:07:32

Christian God that they misunderstand the foundation the fundamental principle of presuppositionalism we don't start with a generic

01:07:40

God we start with the Christian God we might show how all other worldviews are irrational irrational but you know

01:07:48

Psalm 96 5 all the gods of the nations are idols but the Lord made the heavens so I start with that and I might cite

01:07:54

Scripture as my support for that that fact but we don't get to some generic God there is no generic

01:08:00

God and what I tell people is that really the only theist is a Christian all the rest according to Psalm 96 5 and throughout

01:08:07

Scripture are idolaters it's it's not that you know we conclude the

01:08:12

Christian God a presupposition I start with the God of the Bible that that the Bible says everyone knows exists so I start with that God I don't start with a generic

01:08:20

God all right thank you for that blue purple and scarlet says why do you think precepts don't talk more about the arts and music the preconditions are used in every field of study so I that's a cool question

01:08:33

I mean we talk about logic and transcendentals I know Bonson believe that aesthetics you could you could start anywhere when you're talking with the unbeliever why do you think people don't usually use the arts and music as kind of their you know

01:08:50

God needs to be God provides those preconditions for even the intelligibility of those things you know before I was a presupposition listen

01:08:58

I would say even before I understood reformed theology I read a book blue like jazz I haven't read it since I became reformed and since I'm a presuppositions

01:09:06

I might hate it now it might make me want to throw up now but the books I think very beautiful and and he said that the author of the book said he never liked jazz music and then he saw a fellow playing a saxophone a busker on the street playing a saxophone for 15 minutes without opening his eyes hmm he said after that he loved jazz music he says sometimes you have to see some somebody love something that much before you can love it yourself hmm and people don't do that because they don't love it to the degree that maybe this woman does and I've shared with you

01:09:39

I know I shared with this with you on the last show but often I get people say man I was talking to my sister -in -law and I really wish sigh was there so that I can give this you know this presupposition argument but you know what

01:09:50

I would love I would love to be in the room with this woman when she shares about the beauty of God's creation with an unbeliever you know

01:09:57

I want to learn from her I want to hear that from somebody who loves that so people don't do that because I think a lot of times they're in debate forums arguing the preconditions of intelligibility and having smack them on the back for having a good argument and I think that's that people love that okay thank you for that reformed

01:10:17

YT I don't know how to print okay so alpha and omega reformed YT I don't know what that means but gotta love

01:10:24

YouTube all right how should we do an internal critique of the Hindu worldview most of them are harmonious so those who know about the presuppositional methodology we there's a lot of talk on the importance of internally critiquing the unbelievers worldly which you do you say hey if atheism is true where do you get truth that that's that's your attempt at an internal critique to show that they can't account for that how would you engage a

01:10:48

Hindu and generally speaking because you even have variation within Hinduism right now the thing is with as far as the worldviews goes

01:10:56

I'm pretty rusty because I haven't done this for quite a while but if you go to my website proof that God exists org

01:11:02

I have a tab that's called other worldviews and there's one on Eastern philosophies and you know

01:11:09

I'd have to actually go back and actually read that I did that with my friend Corey McKenna from London and we made those tracks a number of years ago and I think there's a lot of good facts about the the you know

01:11:21

Eastern philosophies in there but you know and I know I I use

01:11:27

I beat this analogy to death let's say you had the apostle Peter beside you and you said I'm gonna go talk to this monk and would he say well

01:11:35

I have to study Eastern philosophies before I can talk to him and he probably wouldn't say that now is it good to know

01:11:40

Eastern philosophy would he want you to know if you know about Eastern philosophy would he want to know the details of sure but I think a lot of times that people get duped by these other worldviews you know because it's very interesting some people catch me on this and they've been very helpful with me because you know

01:11:56

I I often say well you're not an atheist you're a professing atheist and then they say well aren't these people actually professing

01:12:03

Muslims and professing Hindus and they're exactly right as the Bible says that everyone knows the

01:12:08

God so does the Hindu so does the Muslim so do all these different worldviews so I think a lot of times because they have a fallback religion we deny the fact that they also know the

01:12:18

God and that's why I've had dear friends engaging Mormons and engaging Muslims and I've never heard him say but you're sinning against the

01:12:24

God that you know exists and anybody can do that so I mean I have a page on Eastern philosophies but like I said in the in the last interview

01:12:32

I think it also misses the mark it gives some facts about it it gives some things that we can ask them it can expose you know some of the folly of their worldview but I think that we need to preach

01:12:41

Christ to them because again it's one thing to deconstruct their worldview it's another thing to preach Christ to them and if you have one person do one thing and one person to the do the other what are they most likely to think about when they put their head on their pillow especially if the

01:12:54

Holy Spirit is at work in their heart they need to be converted to something and they need to be converted to the gospel mm -hmm all right thank you for that Arthur Bear says why do you think atheists specifically

01:13:05

Tom jump endorses Descartes I think therefore I am actually it's I think therefore

01:13:11

I doubt just a context here if that question doesn't make any sense some people will respond to the claim that without the

01:13:18

Christian worldview you can't have you can't justify knowledge some people say well sure I can I could I know that I exist that's indubitable to doubt it

01:13:26

I have to assume it so they kind of offer you know an argument along the lines of Descartes position there how would you say that I don't believe in your

01:13:35

God I don't know your God exists and I know that I exist therefore I have knowledge independent of your

01:13:40

God you know I like I said I'm not a philosopher but I would doubt I would I would counter what he says what the argument actually is that it's not

01:13:49

I think therefore I doubt or I doubt therefore the actual argument is dubido ergo sum it's

01:13:54

I doubt therefore I am yeah no that's what people think it is but I think that the original argument is actually dubido ergo sum not so it's actually

01:14:07

I doubt therefore I am from my understanding but the original question why Tom jump use it I don't know he'll use anything and I'm you know

01:14:14

I'm thankful that you engaged him he's one of the people that I probably would not because I've always said to him

01:14:19

I want to engage you with what you actually believe and he is very reluctant to state what he believes and if he was interested in having a discussion where he would state exactly what he believes so we can you know talk about each of our worldviews then

01:14:33

I would consider it but I just find that he doesn't do that so I think he will use any argument again that he can use to try and trip up his interlocutor mm -hmm all right well thank you for that that's the last question

01:14:46

I'm seeing here let's try to wrap things up getting back to the issue of doubt so I have spoken with young people before who they don't understand a lot of if it's true that all men have a knowledge of God but not everyone knows how to process that I think in terms of because I've seen people like hey

01:15:12

I want to believe in God and I just don't know how to make sense out of all this how do you encourage and point someone in the direction of of encouragement along that journey

01:15:25

I mean do we just come out and say hey man you're suppressing the truth or how do you go about that and kind of I know you're not a pastor but in a pastorly way and a kind of like I'm not your pastor but I want to I want to be there for you

01:15:36

I know people genuine I mean the Bible says you know help my unbelief you know I believe but help my own belief how do you how do you encourage people who are in the position of say that guy in that scripture reference where he's saying

01:15:49

I believe but please help my unbelief yeah well I think that's a different person than you and initially talked about but for that person you know

01:15:57

I would say there's comfort in reading the word and I would encourage people who aren't in a regular reading of the word to get a

01:16:04

Bible plan and what I found too is that Bible plans that don't have the specific date on it it's far easier to skip a day and you know to not get caught up again but I would encourage people to get a

01:16:16

Bible plan with the actual date on it so that you know you can read those days and you can keep up with it and you know that's that's what

01:16:25

I would encourage people to have them because you know it's a work of the Holy Spirit and when people say that I'm really not sure that God exists and I've said this in my talks

01:16:35

I say I have one word for you repent and the thing is repent is the gift of God and repentance is a change of mind so how does somebody change their mind about their certainty of God's existence that's the gift of God they need to get on their knees and cry out to him for that and you know how long and I tell people you need to get on your knees and cry out until God changes your mind about that or until he cast you into hell now that's not for Christian of course but you know for the unbeliever because you know

01:17:03

I have a friend you know who said that as well that you know he he cried out to God until until the

01:17:09

Lord finally saved him and I said keep doing that and till he saves you until he throws you into hell as far as you know the person who you know doubts the existence of God this is one thing that I encourage people with as well and I don't know if I shared it the last time we talked as well but I said

01:17:23

I want to talk to the kid who's sitting in church like this you know can't wait to get out of the nuthouse we're talking about talking snakes and stuff like this

01:17:30

I want to talk to people like that and a friend of mine I got a nephew like that he grew up in a

01:17:35

Christian home and then now he says there's no God and he just you know sits on the couch and his his parents are afraid to talk to him because they think they're gonna push him further away from Jesus and so this is what you do next time you go over there you sit on the couch beside him and you put your under armor on him you say look

01:17:49

I love you man I've been praying for you and you might be fooling your mother you might be fooling your father but you're not fooling me you're not fooling

01:17:58

God I know that you know that God exists the Bible says that you know and I love you and I'm praying for you and if you want to know how to be made right with him you come and talk to me do you want to go shoot you know and now that person is afraid of you and of course you have to do with us in respect because people are in all sorts of different states of depression you know they're in and and sometimes you know you can't give a smug answer but what

01:18:22

I say what Christians need to do is love people you know and love them because I have had it where I have argued even presupposition times blue in the face and then you know love to people and then the response is remarkably different I remember there's one particular a woman she's an atheist from England I think she professes belief now but I was arguing presupposition that is very early on the ministry till I was till my apologetics work

01:18:46

I was arguing till I was blue in the faith blue in the face and I finally said to her um are you ever thankful and she said yeah

01:18:53

I said who do you think of course there was signage she said that question meant more to her than any of my apologetics work so I think you know when people are so focused on methodology you know

01:19:05

I think that's a problem I think that we need to go out and love people and and even people that are very close to me they think that I've gone soft

01:19:12

I think I've gone Armenian I said no we have to go out there and love people like even at the abortion clinics before you know those death squirts at the abortion clinic they're used to having

01:19:22

Christians in their face calling them murderers and and it is the fact that they are accomplices to murder but I think that they prepare themselves before they go to those clinics they prepare themselves for Christians to be like that to them but they're not prepared for Christians to go up to them and with a sincere look look in their eyes and say

01:19:38

I love you I don't know what you're doing here in support of this murderer I don't know what you're doing here as an accomplice to murder but I want you to know that I love you and your only hope is faith in Jesus Christ and that's why

01:19:50

I'm here today and I think that's what people need to do is to you know it's nice to have methodologies but to get away from that like I say

01:19:58

I don't teach people how to defend their faith I teach them how not to and what when

01:20:03

I have a conversation with a Christian about defensive faith I want them to walk away and say I could do this all that all along just talk about the

01:20:10

Lord that I love mm -hmm okay thank you for that well there's just a couple more questions here and I'm gonna stop because we're at an hour and 20 minutes and I don't want you to to fall asleep how are you doing are you okay is it okay to take a couple more unless you're falling asleep no no

01:20:30

I'm fine I'm fine let's see here so it's a it's a philosophical ish a lot of people are just interested in it

01:20:38

I get what you're saying and it's true that we don't want to always be philosophizing and using terms that are really not gonna communicate you know the gospel when we're on the street and stuff but some of the philosophical issues

01:20:51

I think are important people are curious about that so so here's one for you and then I'll chime in as well

01:20:57

I'll just take like two or three more I'm truly grateful for the truth I have gleaned from the both of you could you please expound upon the reason that there could only be one sufficient transcendental

01:21:10

I don't know if that's too philosophical but in other words if the

01:21:15

Christian God we argue is it provides the necessary preconditions for intelligibility why could why must there only be one foundation that provides that you know why can't you have multiple transcendental foundations that equally explain and justify knowledge you know the thing is

01:21:33

I think that you I've heard you actually answer that question far better than I can so I'll defer to you but when people ask me that question

01:21:40

I'll say well it's not that there can't be more than one the Bible says there is only one and if you want to have an argument outside of Scripture you know then

01:21:48

I want your justification for arguing outside of Scripture so if you want to give a philosophical answer that I mean that is your ballpark but I don't say why there can't be

01:21:56

I say there is only one and I know that you've had the argument and you can explain that a lot better is that if if there can be one

01:22:03

I think if there is one that can only be one and I think I've heard actually bonds and talk about in a lecture way over my head

01:22:09

I just defer to Scripture the fact that it says that there is only one but I'll defer to the philosopher the philosophical answer to you yeah you know before yeah well

01:22:18

I agree the Bible says there is only one so that's the reason why we we believe there's only one but I think the reason why by way of kind of a critique of someone who might posit the possibility of there being more than one you run into the problem of kind of a metaphysical pluralism that you have for example two different competing accounts of reality both grounding knowledge how is that possible since that grounding that's not the same as this other grounding they're not the same so how are they giving you a foundation to give you accurate access to the way the world is you can't have two because then you're you'll run into the issue of skepticism you have these two opposing visions of reality that both adequately account for knowledge how can they do that if they're both completely different metaphysical schemes different epistemological schemes things like that so that's why

01:23:08

Bonson argued that if Christianity is one then it follows it's the only one because there can be only one if you don't believe there can be only one then you're stuck in skepticism then we can challenge the validity of any conclusion you draw by assuming that there can be more than one so again that's some philosophical jargon that might not be useful for some people and size probably saying

01:23:29

I told you before but the interesting thing right you know the

01:23:38

Lord can use anything to say right he can use bad arguments to save somebody right you know but that does not mean that we should use better and I'm not saying yours was but he can use anything to save people so I just you know try to be faithful to my

01:23:51

Lord and if people can make those kind of arguments and be faithful to the Lord I say go crazy they're not that they need my permission because they don't very good and you made mention of in passing before we got before we went live but hey it's

01:24:06

Pine Creek good to see you there you go thank you so much

01:24:11

Doug it's always nice to see you in the comments there well that's that's it for the question did

01:24:18

Doug ask a question I don't think he asked a question there were a couple of there were a couple of and I think people who are not very they don't like Calvinism very much and so there seem to be some questions that seem to be a little little clickbaity so that we got off topic and talked about Calvinism but we're not gonna go there maybe when

01:24:36

I have you know a different show we can talk about it but I'm so sorry if I skipped over some of those questions but yeah

01:24:42

Doug has a question you can ask one if you're willing to take one from Doug hi to him and let him know that I've prayed for him over the time and I would not be opposed to having a conversation you know with him in the future

01:24:54

I think the conversation we had on his channel you know I'm thankful for it and I would say that even he's been a friend in a way you know well if you ever if you ever wanted to have a conversation

01:25:05

I'd love to host it on my show me as well and I mean yeah just hi

01:25:11

Doug yeah well hello Doug all right well that's it for the questions here so I want to thank you so much an hour and 25 minutes

01:25:20

I know that was a lot but I'm sure folks were happy to see you back we had a pretty nice size audience listening in guys if you have been get again have you been blessed by this content and this conversation you know show size some love and you know in the comments and and share the video

01:25:37

I love I love these conversations one of the reasons I did this YouTube channel side is

01:25:42

I have my own pocket theologians and apologists so I teach apologetics and I've taught apologetics and and when

01:25:51

I have questions I have a pool of people that I would reach out to and I would have these conversations over the phone and I think to myself like man that was the best conversation

01:26:01

I ever had like why why am I not recording this this would be so useful so I was like you know what let me do a

01:26:08

YouTube channel I can teach I love to teach and just have these like awesome conversations with people so they're useful and beneficial to me and edifying to me and I I'm sure others enjoy them as well so if you like the content share it and thank you so much for your support and you're showing love to Sai and we hope we see more of you doing more videos and things like that and looking forward to doing some more stuff with you in the future whatever the

01:26:34

Lord wills and I want to also thank the people who are watching now and who watches in the future for their prayers because I know that people have not only been praying like for this interview which you know it was a little bit daunting to come back and have this discussion but that people have been praying for me over the past year and I covet those prayers and I'm so thankful to God for you who are watching and watches so thanks a lot well

01:26:57

I'm sure a lot of people love you I love you and I appreciate your the work you've done for the Lord and you know his word doesn't come back void you know we're imperfect people and God still uses uses us for his glory so very appreciative and thank you so much for sharing and keeping people updated on what what was going on so well if there are no any any last words from you brother and we'll wrap things up just again thank you and prayers of you appreciate prayers for our country during this crisis because things are crazy up here and I know it's a bad in the

01:27:33

States but you know pray that people don't put their trust in convoys or in governments but they put their trust in God and you know one thing that I'm thinking to this convoy it's a powerful message you see brothers and sisters getting together but I've never seen something like this for the murder of the unborn and and wouldn't it be cool for there to be a convoy like this for you know against abortion you know and so it's almost like I want things to get back to how they were with the freedoms but we don't deserve it our country's should be in judgment this world should be in judgment for the murder of the unborn so it's almost like I don't want it to get to to get better and less people repent of that wickedness so I mean continue to pray that that the

01:28:17

Lord does a work in this and hopefully that he uses this to save people to to bring in his elect well thank you for that well that is gonna conclude our episode for today once again thank you so much guys

01:28:30

February 16th I'll be having Brant bosserman on to talk about the problem of the one in the many the Trinity the transcendental argument and presuppositional apologetics so if that is a topic that isn't of interest to you tune in then but that's it for this episode

01:28:44

I just want to encourage people to pray for dr. white for his debate tomorrow how did

01:28:50

I miss that dr. James Wyatt is gonna be having a debate in Houston Texas on the topic of is

01:28:59

Molin ism biblical he's going to be debating a friend of mine Tim Stratton of the free -thinking ministry and so that's gonna be a super interesting and informative debate so you guys definitely want to check that out now there was someone accusing me here dodging a question so I'm gonna take this person's last question as we don't dodge questions if I don't get to your question it's probably because of time constraints or it gets lost in the comments

01:29:26

I've stayed in his house so he's got to be a little bit nicer to you all right oh okay there's always one in the comments why is

01:29:37

I not a Clarkian I don't know do you want you want to answer there a reason why you're not a

01:29:48

Clarkian or when I was at his house too and you know I think

01:29:53

Clark ins that I engage with our hard determinants and I used to I used to say to them are you a

01:29:59

Clarkian because it's true or because you have to be because you're predestined to be and so no he's a he's a dear brother just he's just trying to get my goat but I love him and hey brother well

01:30:10

I think I I think Clarkian ism is fideism and fideism just throws you into the basket of some form of skepticism and I'm not down I don't think is

01:30:23

I am I mean just if I know you know we're extending this but Bonson actually sat down with Clark and they had a discussion and you know

01:30:31

I know that there were the differences in the camps and I'm not a Clarkian but I have sympathies to it because I remember in one lecture brilliant he was brilliant I remember in one lecture he was at an evidentialist

01:30:43

University and they said to him how do we know that the contrary is impossible and Bonson said well the

01:30:49

Bible says now to me that sounds a lot like Clarkian ism a lot like fideism and I think that there is something

01:30:55

I don't want to open up a can of worms but I know you got me Ryland I don't know a more grace to the

01:31:03

Clark and I think that's what we have to do anyways it just you know love each other more and and there are differences and I think iron sharpens iron

01:31:09

I'm not a Clarkian but I can see some of the it doesn't mean that I'm on my way there just I but can see some of the points are making

01:31:18

I think there's huge problems with it I think Bonson points out huge problems with it but I love them and I would stay in your house again if they ever let me into your country well

01:31:26

I'm just going to hold my Bonson collection and ignore the fact that you almost suggested that he adopted some form of fetus he said you know the contrary is impossible because the

01:31:39

Bible says so that's well I mean okay I apologize I'm so sorry we need to end

01:31:46

I'm so sorry all right I'm gonna have to do a separate episode now

01:31:51

I'm just kidding I'm not a Clarkian I'm just kidding I'm just kidding all right see what you did there