February 11, 2021 Show with Jim Osman on “God Doesn’t Whisper: Is God Trying to Speak to You Through Signs, Impressions, Subtle Promptings or a Still, Small Voice?” (Part 2)

The Program Introduction and the Question of God’s Voice

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 11th day of February 2021.

I want to thank those of you in social media who are already sending me birthday wishes. Keep in mind that it is a bit premature. My birthday is on Valentine's Day, so if you plan on buying that Mercedes-Benz that I've been eyeing for a long time, I appreciate hearing from you.

But seriously, I am thrilled to have back on the program two men who are going to be entering into Part 2 of a discussion we began not long ago, a very important discussion. This would be on the theme of a new book, God Doesn't Whisper, and to basically summarize the questions being asked of you, the reader of that book, and you, the listener of this program.

Is God trying to speak to you through signs, impressions, subtle promptings, or a still, small voice? And I speak of the guests, Jim Osmond, the author of that book, who is also a pastor and preaching elder of Kootenai Community Church in Kootenai, Idaho, and also Justin Peters, who's going to be co-hosting with me, and Justin is founder of Justin Peters Ministries.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you both back to Onion Trip and Zion Radio, Jim Osmond and Justin Peters.

Thank you, Chris. It's a privilege to be here.

And Jim, let's start with you for another brief summary of Kootenai Community Church in Kootenai, Idaho, since there may be people hearing you for the first time today.

Yeah, I'm a pastor of a small congregation. I have been pastoring in this same church since 1996. I got saved as a result of the ministry of this church and have been in the church since I was a teenager, and now it's my joy to shepherd up attending as a kid.

Praise God. And what would be the theological background of the church?

Oh, yes, thank you. Theologically, not eschatologically, we would be a non-denominational church.

If anybody wants more information on Kootenai Community Church, go to KootenaiChurch .org, and that's spelled K-O-O-T-E-N-A-I Church .org K-O-O-T-E-N-A-I Church .org. Justin Peters, please let our listeners know, especially those who are hearing you for the first time, something about Justin Peters Ministries.

And if anybody wants to find out more about Justin Peters Ministries,.

Go to JustinPeters .org JustinPeters .org. You know, I wonder, Justin, how many people would be clamoring for the title Apostle today if the life expectancy for an apostle was the same in the New Testament era as it is today?

Study the life of the apostles and how their lives ended. But we are, as I said,.

Addressing the theme of Jim Osmond's new book, God Doesn't Whisper, which comes with a foreword by John MacArthur. And this is basically a refutation of extra-biblical revelation and also a defense of the sufficiency of Scripture.

It is quite a healthy-sized book, very thoroughly researched and documented, nearly 300 pages long, and I am delighted to promote it today on the program. And if anybody wants to hear Part 1 of our discussion after this program is over, or if you have missed Part 1 when we did it live, just go to www .IronSharpensIronRadio .com and you will look in the Podcast Past Shows section, and if you type in Osmond, O-S-M-A-N, not like the Osmond brothers, but different spelling, O-S-M-A-N, that interview will come up and any other interviews, actually, that we did with Jim in the past.

Today we are going to focus our discussion, although we won't exclusively discuss this, but we are going to focus our discussion on an element of the phenomenon of alleged extra-biblical supernatural divine revelation to the specific genre of that subject when it comes to Muslim conversion to Christianity.

I know a number of fine Christian folks who are very heavily involved in the study of Islam and evangelism to Muslims and I have been told that a great number of Muslim conversions to Christianity involve a vision and or a dream.

And I even called into the Trinity Network, I believe it's called, and I'm not talking about TBN, the Word of Faith Heretical Network, the Trinity Broadcasting Network. This is a different television network, and I believe it's just called the Trinity Network or Trinity Christian Network, I can't remember right now.

But they heavily, predominantly address the issue of Islam from a Christian point of view. And I remember I called in during a program that was featuring a Reformed Baptist host. And I said to the host, one thing that troubles me about a lot of testimonies of conversion to Christianity by Muslims is that nearly every time I've heard one, they involve a dream and or a vision or a claimed dream and or vision that has led the person to Christ, an appearance of Jesus even before their very eyes, allegedly.

And I said to the host, I, like you, am a Reformed Baptist and I am a cessationist, so I don't even know what to make of this phenomenon. And this host said, I'm a cessationist too, but I give allowance to this phenomenon for one reason, that the Muslims that claim these visions and dreams as a part of their testimony of coming to Christ, nearly every single one of them say that that was a one-time experience that led them to Christ when they became Christians.

The vast majority of them that I know personally are not even charismatic. They are not those that have dreams and visions that continue in their life. So it gives it more credibility to me as far as the host saying that.

But it still left me not settled over the issue. And perhaps, Jim, if you could pick up.

Right from there. Yeah, it is. It's repeated quite often. There's a lot of phenomenon being legit. And then you had David Platt Convention, the International Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention, stood up and related one such story.

Ravi Zacharias was a Muslim world and even Nabil Qureshi, in America today. Right, right. I knew Nabil actually. I knew personally.

Nabil Qureshi and I, even though I always felt extremely high and fond of him. It never settles right with me when anybody has a testimony that includes that.

Yeah, yeah. I have a chapter in my book on that. So you tend to have people on one side who will say they reject all of it out of hand. Biblical reason or biblical parodies. And then you have other Christians excited to hear about them.

I mean, when David Platt stood up and gave that missions report in 2018 in June at their annual gathering. And that's striking because the Southern believe or accept modern revelations, visions and dreams.

And yet when it's told, you know, and it could grow long enough to even... Yeah, a lot of it... I would... Go ahead.

Go ahead. I was just going to say a lot of it may... Let me just finish a sentence. A lot of it may be because they know that there is great risk involved in many Muslim conversions. Not all. There are people whose Muslim families are very nominal.

They are so Americanized. They may be second, third, fourth generation immigrants to the United States or the sons and grandsons or daughters and granddaughters of immigrants. And there's just very little of real, chronically faithful Islam that they've been raised in.

But there are some who either overseas actually risked execution or in the United States risked being shunned by their own family. So there is like that added credibility that for the person coming to Christ at great sacrifice and risk to their own lives and so on.

If you want to just pick up right there.

Yeah, that's family. And yet he remained just a few years ago. That Nabeel Qureshi in my encouragement of caution regarding dreams and vision, I'm not suggesting that any of these people have not been genuinely converted.

Though I do think that there's probably reason to believe that some of them were not. But I'm not suggesting that all of them were not. And in Nabeel's case, in reading his testimony, here was a guy who was being evangelized by his college roommate for a long period of time ended up going to a Bible study with Gary Habermas.

And these men began to give him apologetic reasons for the New Testament's reliability and faith in Christ and sharing the gospel with him. And by his own confession before he had any of these revelatory dreams that supposedly led to the claims of Christ that he found in the New Testament he was seeing it and yet feeling channity.

The memory serves as that led him to faith in Christ. And these dreams by no means an expert in the Islamic worldview. Dr. James White would be far better to answer this issue than I would be in this term.

But as far as I understand in the Muslim worldview revelatory dreams and vision communities and many Islamic he would be himself, any dream that he had would all of a sudden take on any kind of a revelatory significance.

Just add an issue that you're causing great angst. What are the bad people tonight? Chances are good. Good you're going to. Maybe not necessarily. Maybe in light of just the things that he's already wrestling with and the things he's learning from the New Testament.

Yeah, if you have a presupposition about the value and the role of dreams that already exists in your mind that they can be revelatory than having dreams or being plagued by dreams or having consistent habitual dreams, there's going to be a tendency to look at those through the lenses that you already have.

Exactly. Exactly. He's already expecting that God is going to be answering his prayer or his dreams. And to my knowledge, in the deal of life, did he ever have that idea that God was revealing stuff to him in his dreams even after he became talking about dreams that he had as if God were speaking and giving specific direction through those dreams.

So that is a worldview that he never questioned the legitimacy of at any time in his Christian life.

I'm sorry? I was going to ask a question to both of you since this is very much a part of what you both do, both you and Brother Justin, who's my co-host today. The thing that you will very often hear from people, even from some very strong cessationists, or I might even include in that some conversations I've had, and I don't say that this would be the typical answer given by an independent fundamentalist Baptist, but I've even had conversations with people from that background who are known for being extremely rigid cessationists who have said, when put in a corner, do you believe God could reveal himself through a revelation that is not a part of the canon in our day and age?

And very often, because of the hesitancy of Bible-believing Christians, authentic evangelical people who believe in the inerrancy of Scripture and so on, the hesitancy of wanting to appear like they limit God, they limit God's ability, they limit God's power in any way.

Very often you will hear the answer, well, sure, if, and it's always the jungles of Africa, and almost every time I hear this, if, for instance, a Christian who is in the jungles of Africa is trying to communicate the Gospel to somebody and he doesn't know the language well and he doesn't have a Bible in their language, I could see God giving them either the gift of tongues to speak to these people in their own language, or even give the person who is the object of evangelism some kind of revelation when they go home at night and to contemplate what had occurred with the evangelist.

So it is a common thing and it seems to be the fear of limiting God, of trying to take away somehow His omnipotence, His omniscience, His, you know, the glory and the power of God. But if you could both answer that, because that seems to be the root of a lot of this outside of where you normally expect people to wholeheartedly buy into this, like the charismatic movement and the Pentecostal movement.

Jim, maybe you could start.

That leaves the.

Charismatic in a difficult position because the vast majority, not all, but the vast majority, are Zionists. So it would leave them in an uncomfortable position today to believe that this was an ongoing expression of God's judgment against Israel.

And do you have anything to add, Jim?

Yeah, Chris, I would add to that that when we were talking about whether God speaks to us or not, we're not talking about His power again because He doesn't have the ability to do that. What has God revealed that He does do are the means by which we're nudging and prompting.

If we do not do that, we're saying that God has not revealed that He will do that, or that He says how He speaks to us how He speaks. We're not putting fines in the box in which God has placed Himself when He has already described to us how it is that He speaks, how it is that He works.

He is free Himself, and when we affirm that, we're not putting Him in a box. We're simply saying this is what God has revealed about Himself and His own way of working.

And we're going to go to our first break right now. If anybody wants to join us on the air with a question of their own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

The Sufficiency of Scripture and Why God Does Not Whisper

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The Problem of Muslim Testimonies Involving Dreams and Visions

And Jason Garwood, the man whose voice you just heard is my guest tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. So make sure that you mark that on your calendar and tune in as he discusses Part 2 of our discussion on his book Health for All of Life A Medical Manifesto of Hope and Healing for the Nations.

So make sure you tune in tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron. And we are now back with my guest Jim Osmond. Jim, who is the author of God Doesn't Whisper and we also have as my co-host today Justin Peters of Justin Peters Ministries.

And I know, Justin, that you wanted to follow up with a comment about the Muslim dreams that lead to, allegedly, that lead to conversions to Christianity.

One, just to dovetail, Christians are for anybody.

In fact, if there were, somebody could respond to that with a dream or a vision. How can anybody hear with a dream or a vision?

And going back to something I believe that.

We were discussing on Part 1 of this discussion a number of weeks ago. We, all of us, all three of us believe in the sovereignty of God. We believe that nothing happens apart from His ordaining it. That nothing happens by happenstance.

So therefore, could we justify God using dreams. I'm not talking about as revelation, not as forms of revelation. Not like the manner in which God breathed the Scriptures through the authors, the human authors of the Scriptures.

But just as He does with other things in life could a person not be plagued with dreams that are not revelatory, but they are just driving a person to despair or a person to reach a point when they know something needs to change in their life.

And it doesn't even need to be, specifically in regard to conversion to Christianity. It could be a person who is plagued with dreams about his adultery against his wife. It could be a person plagued with dreams that convicts him further of his thievery from his business where he works.

You know, you could go on and on and on. Could not God use dreams. And of course we have to be very clear on how we define using dreams. Could He not use dreams to bring about the conversion of a Muslim that does not involve revelation.

Yeah, why God could not in His own mind dream about something, anxiety over divine fiat to every imagination of our nightly mind in Christ. It could be not called that revelation. Yes, and I think this goes back to.

How we must be very careful how we articulate things. Like for instance there is a difference between someone saying if they are giving their testimony for instance that I was plagued with dreams that I was going to hell for rejecting Christ and I was going to hell for all the sins in my life that I knew I was going to pay the penalty for those sins and these dreams just burden me with with convicted conscience and depression and I just knew that I finally reached the point I knew that I had to repent and believe upon Christ to finally experience the peace that surpasses all understanding from the Holy Spirit that I could get this burden off my back.

Now, there is a difference between saying that and God spoke to me through dreams I was having. Sometimes people use those euphemisms and they don't even really mean what they are saying. Even as we have said, I believe in the last discussion.

There are even cessationist pastors even reformed cessationist pastors who would ascend into a pulpit and say I believe the Lord has laid this subject upon my heart today. We have to be careful about how we communicate things like that, correct?

The Lord told me, the Lord impressed upon me. We use language as if God would use. If I feel, the Lord just told me that I should. You are putting words in God's mouth when you use language like that and you need to be very careful with that.

You are claiming that you are hearing God speak. I don't like being misquoted and misrepresented. We need to be careful when we use language like that that we are not putting words in God's mouth.

If you could, mention some other ways that perhaps people defend this phenomenon or just more examples that you have that are biblical that would bolster a cessationist understanding of this.

Are you talking about in connection with Muslim dreams specifically?

Well, if you wanted to continue on that thread, yes. Anything else that you wanted to add to the conversation whether it's on Muslims or not, that's up to you.

Yeah, let me just jump off of the Muslim thing on the salvation. I think that when we are talking about Muslim conversion by many missionaries who come back from the Muslim field who are advocating this that they are saved out of the Muslim religion.

And yet if you look in Scripture they would say that the lost or saved would be receiving these John, in his gospel, to be believed. He talked about being an eyewitness. He said this is one of these things.

We are testifying this to you so that your joy may be full and you may have fellowship with Christ on what was revealed in Scripture and not upon modern day dreams and visions that would come after the lifetime of the Apostles.

The Apostle Peter is from Heaven. In fact, he says in 1 Peter 1 verse 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him, and though you do not see him now, but believe in him, you greatly rejoice at the end of his life that seeing Christ for themselves as being the basis for faith from that point forward.

Now, that's a lot of argument against people suggesting that we should be open to this. Now, one of the things that has occurred to me.

About this phenomenon is that the Scriptures teach us that God is no respecter of persons and it would seem to me that if this were true I'm talking about.

True.

With the defense of it from cessationist brothers and sisters those that agree with us that this is not the norm of Christian life but with the Muslims he is doing remarkable things that he has not typically done after the apostolic era because the Muslims are so hard to reach with the Gospel and the Muslims risk their life very often by believing in the lives of their family members and it seems that there is a preferential treatment or a view and it could be totally unconscious on the part of the people saying these things but they are acting as if God is going to use these revelatory actions with Muslims in ways that he wouldn't do with anybody else.

In fact, if you could answer that or respond to that when we return from our midway break because we are already at that point folks, please be patient with us as we take this midway break and the Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us this break in the middle of the show because they are required by the FCC to air their own public service announcements and other local things in the middle of the show to localize Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio to Lake City, Florida.

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God’s Sovereignty, the Muslim World, and the Limits of “Revelation”

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Hi, I'm Jason Garwood and I'm a husband father, pastor and writer whose passion for helping people led me to write this book. If 2020 has proven anything, it's that big pharma, big tech and big government knows nothing about how to treat people naturally without poisoning them with synthetic drugs and experimental vaccines.

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