Q & A: Christ in the OT (Part 1)

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Welcome to No Compromise Radio Ministry. Mike Abendroth here. Cancer Is Not Your Shepherd, a 31 -day guide to suffering found on Amazon.

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If you've purchased it, would you please give me a rating? That would help in terms of Amazon searches and all that stuff.

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So far I've gotten some good responses. I appreciate that. Today we're doing what we've done in the past.

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You've seen kind of the format. I was at Community Bible Church in Beloit, Ohio with Pastor John Tucker for the

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Pillars Conference, the fifth annual one for me. And Pat Abendroth was also there.

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And John did two Q &As, one on Friday night and one on Sunday in April of 2024.

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And we're going to play those for you here on the radio so that you can hopefully be encouraged.

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John is the moderator. Pat and I are answering the questions. And I guess what you have to figure out is when Pat answers or I answer, who is whom?

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All right. If you guys want to go ahead and get seated, we'll work through the

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Q &A. I wanted to take a few minutes to talk about the books that Pat and Mike have recently written.

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Pat's book, The Active Obedience of Christ. And Mike's book, Cancer is Not Your Shepherd. And so we'll take a few moments to ask them some questions about that.

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You have that book in your gift bag, The Active Obedience of Christ, by Patrick Abendroth, of course.

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The famous Machen quote, so thankful for the active obedience of Jesus Christ, no hope without it.

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So Pat, tell us about The Active Obedience of Christ, why you wrote it, and who's the audience for this book?

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So the reason I wrote it, maybe I'll start with the story because everybody likes stories and I didn't tell many stories in my message.

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It was a bit controversial at Omaha Bible Church because there was someone who didn't believe in The Active Obedience of Christ and behind the scenes was kind of hostile about it.

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And so my wife Molly and I went to a dinner with some friends of ours. And so we walked into the restaurant and so our friend

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Laura said, what's all the controversy anyway? And I said, well, why don't we order our food and then we can talk about it.

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I said, but before we order, I can make it real simple. Jesus is better. And she looked at me like, what are you talking about?

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So I can explain the book by saying Jesus is better because I used to think

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Jesus was pretty awesome because he forgives our sins. He died for our sins to make atonement so we can be forgiven.

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I'm Pat Abendroth and I have a lot of sins. So ever since I've become a Christian, I thought

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Jesus was amazing because he took my sins away. But Jesus is better than Pat at least knew because Jesus doesn't only take our sins away.

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He positively obeys the law to earn perfect righteousness for us so that God will justify us freely by faith.

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So he not only takes away the guilt, he provides the perfect righteousness for us.

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That's what I mean. And I like to say it to be provocative. Jesus is even better than I knew. I don't mean

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Jesus improved, but from my perspective, I thought he was great. He's even better than I knew. So I wanted to write the book because a lot of people are missing out on what all that entails the work of Jesus, his life, his death, his resurrection, his ascension.

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Therefore, they're missing out on assurance. Therefore, they're missing out on giving him glory for all that he has done.

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And so that's what it is. That's what motivated me. Audience would be,

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I want people that are probably newer to the doctrine, or maybe if you're not newer to the doctrine, you'll say, this is a good package.

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It's not hard to read. I'm going to read it so I can know if I approve of it or not. And then

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I can share it with other people. So lots of pastors are buying multiple copies to give to their church.

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It happened here, right? So you can easily access something so that you can understand the gospel better.

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Great. On page 32, you provide a definition of righteousness, which I think is really very good.

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You say the commonly understood meaning of righteousness is the legal act of doing what God requires.

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In other words, righteousness is adherence to law. And so the act of obedience speaks to that adherence.

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Is that correct? Yep. So the act of obedience of Christ would be his positive upholding of God's law, his earning of righteousness.

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But a lot of times Christians don't even know, even pastors don't seem to know what righteous is. It's one of those words that's used in the

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Bible so many times, and yet we don't know what it is. Oh, adherence to law, obedience to law.

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Jesus said, I didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill the law. So we need to recover basic definitions of things like that.

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Otherwise, people don't know what the Bible teaches. They don't know the gospel. But ask people, what do you think righteous means?

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Usually, oh, self -righteous or something. It just means obeying God's law. And what's God's law? Love God, love neighbor.

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Oh, that's righteousness if you do that. Jesus did it perfectly for us. So I love finding things like that that people don't know.

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People like me don't know because people ask me and I go, righteous means holy.

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Well, actually it doesn't. And it forces me to study and then help other people be equipped to be good missionaries.

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So we can change the world, right? One word at a time. May I say something, please?

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By the way, that was a great message. I hope you were encouraged. I sat as a brother, an older brother, thinking,

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I think that's the best message I've ever heard my brother preach. So that was a great job. He is the firstborn son, by the way, in our family.

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The prototokos. Physically or spiritually? Of course,

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Jesus forgave our sins. You think about his death at Calvary. But as Pat has so masterfully talked about in the book, he lives for our righteousness.

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And Hebrews chapter 10 says, Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,

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What did you say when you came into the world? Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me.

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In burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. Then I said, Behold, I have come to do your will,

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O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book. And if there'd be perfect obedience, there'd be no reason for a sacrifice.

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I think it's been said somewhere, someplace, to obey is better than sacrifice. And so, of course, the

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Lord dies for our sins, but he also lives for us as he perfectly obeys the law.

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Remember, he was born of a woman, born under the law. He's not keeping the law for himself because he came, as Pat said, with the pactum for others.

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He dies for others. He lives for others. He's inherently righteous. He doesn't need more righteousness by being under the law for himself.

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He's under the law to earn righteousness for others. And so we have both negative, he takes care of sin, and, of course, positive because to obey is better than sacrifice.

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That's great. Thank you. So when we look at the act of obedience, Pat, of Jesus Christ, how does that help a believer with assurance?

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A lot of Christians really struggle with assurance. How do we use the act of obedience to take care of concerns about assurance?

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I'll start by saying if you don't like the doctrine of assurance, you for sure don't like the act of obedience of Christ, right?

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So if you're trying to get people to do more, try harder to get God to accept them, you won't buy in.

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In fact, in one sense, if you understand the act of obedience of Christ as well as his passive obedience, his suffering obedience, you'll say people are going to have assurance.

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So, but if you need assurance, just know that if you're only forgiven, you don't have assurance because God doesn't require zero, right?

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If you read the Bible, there are a lot of commands, tons of commands. Let's just do New Testament only. There are so many commands, things like love

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God and love neighbor with heart, soul, mind, and strength. Ah, to love God that way, love your neighbor as yourself.

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So if that's what God requires and all of your violations are gone, you're at zero.

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So your ledger is at zero. You're not in the red anymore, but you're at zero and God doesn't require zero.

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He requires love, perfect love, and you don't have it, so you shouldn't have assurance. But if the

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Lord Jesus Christ came to fulfill all righteousness and you're trusting in him, you have assurance.

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So that's why we want to say, that's why J. Gressa Machen, that famous pastor, you know, a hundred years ago dying in North Dakota, sent a text to his friend

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John Murray, so thankful for the act of obedience of Christ. No hope without it, but he had hope because he had hope in the perfect law keeper.

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I should also say, maybe John, just to clarify too, the passive obedience of Christ is kind of confusing for us, especially 21st century

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Americans. Passive? Nothing Jesus did was passive. So that's not what we mean.

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It comes from a Latin word. It has to do with suffering. So it's his suffering obedience.

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So it's not Jesus was passive on the cross and he was active in his life. That's not what the doctrine is.

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Sorry. Sorry, it's confusing. That's not what it is. Jesus was never passive. He was always active.

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But when we say active and passive obedience, we're saying his suffering obedience. Think of the passion in his passion, suffering.

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Passim, I think is the word. His passive obedience is his suffering, and he suffered when?

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On the cross, but throughout his whole life, if you read what the New Testament says, he was acquainted with sorrows, grief, all of these things.

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His friends died. He went to funerals, all of these things, the cursed, broken world.

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He suffered throughout his whole life. Then according to Philippians chapter two, the suffering was climactic, if you will, on the cross, but the cross was also an act of obedience.

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So it's a package. We're just looking at the whole package from two different perspectives, two different angles.

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So he was always obeying, and he was always suffering. So just to clear that up just a little bit, hopefully that might help, but talk about assurance.

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Amazing to be able to rest in Christ. If you're trusting in Christ, you receive

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Christ and all of his benefits. That includes forgiveness. That includes perfect righteousness.

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You cannot be more righteous right now in that sense. It's just amazing.

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Great. Mike didn't write the book, by the way. This is so bad not to be able to have a microphone.

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But you'll notice that my book's a lot smaller because he's a lot smarter. Or he's trying to make up for something.

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I don't know. I don't even know what I was going to say. Well, let me ask you some questions then,

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Mike, and we'll give you the moment here. So you've written this book, Cancer Is Not Your Shepherd, a 31 -day guide to suffering.

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So let's start off with how are you doing? What's the diagnosis, prognosis, and how are things going for you?

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Well, thanks for asking. There's a theologian that I don't really like, but he said some things that were pretty good sometimes.

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He was on his deathbed, and they asked him, how are you doing? He said, I'm almost well. I was diagnosed with chronic leukemia in August, started two medications in November.

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It's not chemotherapy because it doesn't kill good cells. It just kills the bad cells. It just takes a while to kill them all because if you kill them too fast, your body can't get rid of the cells fast enough.

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And so I've been having those treatments for a while. I had to go to Boston two days a week for many weeks, and now it's just once a month blood tests.

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And they give you the medicine, and so it'll probably last through next November.

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I feel tired. I feel kind of lethargic. I don't know if you've ever smoked a cigarette before, but the first time you inhale it, you kind of feel weird.

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That's how I feel. And so I sat in the blood draw room at Dana -Farber in Boston, and I saw people with tags on.

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You have like this little Geiger counter thing, and then your wristband. And then they are always accompanied by someone kind of doting on them, maybe a wife or a husband or a caregiver.

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And I thought, these poor people, the pastor in me kind of kicked in. I thought, they're like sheep without a shepherd. And everybody's shepherded by something or someone.

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Shepherds guide and direct and control and move around. And so cancer patients are shepherded by blood tests and cat scans and pet scans and bone biopsies.

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By the way, those things hurt. All these different things, but cancer is not the shepherd of Christians.

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Matter of fact, Psalm 91 says, if you're not a believer, death is your shepherd. What an awful shepherd death must be.

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But as equally awful, equally good, the Lord is our shepherd. And so you read Ezekiel 34,

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Psalm 23, John chapter 10. And I thought, you know what? Every day I wake up thinking,

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I have cancer. I don't want to wake up thinking that, because cancer is not my shepherd. It doesn't have the last say.

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The Lord does. And so I thought, you know what? I should probably write something to help other people who go through this.

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Cancer is not your shepherd, a 31 -day guide to suffering. So that's kind of how it came about. Okay, great.

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So talk about how the book is divided up. You wrote the first half, and then you've compiled information from other authors in the second half.

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So talk about how you came to the division of the book that way. Sure. I have this idea for 31 -day guides, because if you read something for 30 days in a row, 31 days in a row, it helps establish a habit, right?

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Four to six weeks, 30 -some days, 40 days of purpose, you know, something like that. Okay. Well, strike the last thing.

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Yeah, let me see here. Let's move the strike. Let the record reflect that the last statement is hereby stricken from the record forever.

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It cannot be brought back up on appeal. Wow, that's pretty good. And so I just thought something for 31 days, and I thought, well,

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I don't know if I have 31 days of material to write. I have about 16 or 17 that I'll personally write.

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And then I thought, well, I'll add some famous Puritan authors on suffering in general, those last 15 to 16 chapters,

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Thomas Watson, Thomas Brooks, Thomas Goodwin, other folks like that. And so the first part of the book is cancer -related, although you could just put in any sickness,

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MS, Lou Gehrig's disease, you know, any kind of trial, really. And then the second half is general suffering.

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So that's 31 -day guide. Gospel Assurance is a 31 -day guide. Sexual Fidelity, the new one, is a 31 -day guide.

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So that's kind of the new series idea. Okay, great. We were just talking about assurance.

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And on page 26, I was drawn to your discussion of this idea of how can

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I be a Christian since I sin so much? And importantly, you talk about both subjective and objective assurance.

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And you say this, but objective assurance is the most important aspect of assurance, and it is primary.

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What is objective about it? The object of one's faith is key. So talk about that a little bit,

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Mike, in terms of facing cancer and struggles of that nature, and why that objective assurance is so important.

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You know what? We should probably do a conference one time here, Pillars on Gospel Assurance or something, don't you think?

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I think we did that once, yeah. Most of the time, if we're not careful, we look inward for lots of reasons, including assurance.

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And so if you're honest with yourself and you say, do I really do what the Bible says Christians do?

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You know, I have a desire for God's Word. I go to church. I serve.

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There's lots of things like that we could ask ourselves. But the most important question is, am

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I trusting in the finished work of the Lord Jesus? It's external. It's not based on who I am or what

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I do or the degree I do something or the intensity or with great fervor.

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It's, can a little faith, a weak faith in a strong Savior save? So it's external, right?

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We have to go outside of ourselves because we kind of lie to ourselves. And sometimes we go by feelings and other things.

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So objective assurance is the most important. We start there. Do I believe in the person of the Lord Jesus, His promises,

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His Word? And do I believe that He's a risen Savior and is the tomb empty? Do I believe that?

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I have knowledge of it. I assent to that and I trust. And so that's the key. And then secondarily, there'll be fruits in my life that the

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Spirit of God works, including crying out, Abba, Father, when I'm hurting. And objective assurance is where we should start.

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And in regards then to responding to an illness like cancer, then that is what becomes the shepherd, that objective focus on Christ, as opposed to what you've identified as the processes and procedures and the medications that you go through.

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Sure. And if I go to somebody in the hospital and visit, and it wasn't that awful when it was COVID and we can't go visit people in the hospital, you know, your loved ones or a pastor or someone like that.

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And if someone would come and visit me, I remember I was in the hospital for 16 days thinking I was going to die from COVID.

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And if you came in and visited me and said, Mike, are you praying enough? Have you been reading your Bible? Have you been evangelizing nurses?

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Have you been thinking about your children and setting up life insurance and this, that, and the other? Probably all valid questions.

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I did try to evangelize. I did try to read my Bible, but it was much different when

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I would get a text from R. Scott Clark, and he would say, Mike, Jesus loves you, and He'll never leave you nor forsake you.

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That's the objective side versus the subjective. And so for patients that are sitting there or you're facing terminal illness, you ask good questions, right?

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The fluff is gone. You're not concerned about Joe Biden's policies. You're not concerned about do the

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Cleveland Browns make it in? None of that stuff really matters. It's I'm going to stand before a holy

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God one day, and I know I'm a sinner. And so how does a holy God accept a sinner?

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And you need a mediator to be in the presence of God, right? The definition of heaven is in the presence of God with a mediator.

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A definition of hell is in the presence of God without a mediator. And so you need a friend. You need an advocate.

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You need a lawyer. You need a substitute. You need one who earns righteousness for you. And so I just think you ask the right questions when you're in the hospital and when you have cancer, and it needs to be the external focus because deep down we really know we don't obey like we should.

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That's right. Good. Any questions of Mike or Pat in regards to the content of Pat's message or their books or the topics that we've been discussing so far?

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I'd like to open it up to the folks in the congregation if you have a question. Not all at once.

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I think we should switch it around a little bit, John. I think I should be able to ask questions with Pat. We get to ask people in the congregation.

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Okay. Put the congregation in the hot seat?

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Is that true? Yeah. They should know how we feel sometimes. That's right. Indeed. So Pat, let's talk about your message tonight.

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You were talking about the issue of the Enlightenment, and you made some comments or some statements relative to examples of Enlightenment hermeneutics impacting the church today.

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Where do we find that typically? I mean, where would we need to be on guard about that?

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So was it last year we did Doctrine of God, or a couple years ago we talked about the Doctrine of God? Yes.

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Yeah, the Trinity. So we're even in that realm of studying theology, we're seeing a recovery of pre -Enlightenment

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Doctrine of God. So that's happening there because a lot of our views of God have been affected by the

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Enlightenment. So that's kind of interesting just to see that happening in a good way. Let's read the older theologians to see what they were saying before we became naturalists and tried to explain

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God through nature and creation. So we're seeing that happen. That's been a good kind of recovery.

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But where we're seeing it when it comes to interpreting Scripture and applying Scripture, it's big in dispensationalism is where it is, just to name the elephant in the room.

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So I was trained at a dispensational school. If you don't know what dispensationalism is, it's a future for national religious geopolitical

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Israel. And I don't mean a future for the Jews to become believers in Christ and become part of the church.

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That's not dispensationalism. Dispensationalism is a future coming temple built with priests, with animal sacrifices, and all of those things.

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Dispensationalism requires a future rebuilt temple with animal sacrifices and priests.

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And they use Ezekiel, and it says to make atonement in Ezekiel. So I think they've got that wrong.

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But just so you're aware, I literally have lots of friends who are dispensationalists. I was a dispensationalist for a long time.

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But Hebrews wrecked me. And also reading the old in light of the new and the new in light of the old wrecked me.

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So we looked at Hosea 11 one, and it's out of Egypt. I called my son and it's

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Israel. I believe that's true. And then it's used in Matthew. And it says to fulfill that, which is kind of interesting because actually in Hosea 11 one, it's not a prophecy.

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It's history. And Matthew, under inspiration, writes that history finds fulfillment in the person of Jesus.

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So that's where it is. The author I quoted in my lecture or my talk or my sermon, whichever you want to call it, was

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Walter Kaiser. And Walter Kaiser has written a lot of great Old Testament stuff, but die in the wall committed to forbidding you from reading revelation, scripture, scripture, interpreting scripture.

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So you're not allowed to go to the new. You have to stay in the old. And so all kinds of trouble happens.

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And I would say it's, that's not historically Christian. He's a conservative. He believes the Bible is true, but his hermeneutics and his hermeneutical methodology that's taught in his textbooks is patently post -enlightenment naturalistic.

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And it's not helpful. It's not Christ glorifying. And just to be real blunt about it.

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So, but, but it is one reason why there's been big pushback by dispensationalists who are brothers and sisters in Christ against a

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Christ -centered perspective, because if you go down that road, you're Christ -centered, not

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Israel -centered. Well, there's part one of the

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Q &A. Mike Abendroth here on No Compromise Radio Ministry.