Evening of Eschatology part 3

The Millennium as the Intermediate State in Heaven

Wow, there are so many things that both that they've both said that I agree with and many things that I disagree with. First of all, you're representing a view that I don't like the label. But I'm a millennial because it suggests that I don't believe in a millennium.

I believe the millennium is literal real vibrant. Tangible, but it's in heaven and I think that what what Doug described as the intermediate state. Where your father is right now where my father is right now where Jonathan Edwards is right now where Augustine is right now those are The Saints described in Revelation 20 verse 4 through 6 who are reigning with Christ in the intermediate state.

Spanning the duration of the present church age between the two comings of Jesus that constitutes the millennial reign. So I don't embrace the millennia the amillennial view which I hear so often expressed that It's the reign of Christ over the hearts of his people in the church right now.

I don't believe that I think the millennial reign is The reign of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus. He's talking about those in the intermediate state between the two comings of Christ.

So do you believe very much in a millennium? In fact, it's interesting. There was no such label as amillennialism really until about the early 20th century all amillennialists were called post millennialist.

I'm post millennial in the way that Doug is in the sense that I believe that the return of Christ comes post or after The millennium his millennium is on the earth. It's the progressive triumph of the church through the gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit.

I Believe the millennium is in heaven. It constitutes the reign of Christ with his Saints in the intermediate state. So I would agree with Jim that the problem that I have with Doug's view Is that when I read 2nd Corinthians 4 and 6 and Romans 8 and elsewhere?

I believe that the the people of God on the earth will continue to suffer. That that's a global phenomenon that may be more intense in one side of the earth than the other we don't suffer here. We can't even we shouldn't even allow to be allowed to say that when we think of our brothers and sisters in China or in Iran or In Indonesia and other places.

But suffering will continue good and evil will follow parallel paths there will be the expansion of the kingdom of Satan and the intensification of his persecution of the church at the same time that there is an expansion of the gospel and The progressive triumph of Jesus and that these will be terminated consummated in the second coming of Christ.

At which time there will be the final judgment final resurrection the inauguration of the eternal state the new heavens in the new earth I. Did you mention in the introduction both Jim and I graduate from Dallas seminary?

From Dispensationalism to Amillennialism

So there was a time when I embraced very enthusiastically the view that he articulated and Just you held the whole dispensational view, right when I was in when I was in Dallas it was a couple of years after I got out through George Ladd's influence that I Abandoned dispensationalism and then about 1984 became an all-millennialist.

So you went from dispensationalist to historic pre male to a millennial and the reason I did very simply if I can. He's he's a pilgrim. That's right. I'm a sojourner. You think he's almost there, don't you?

Just keep going and and the.

The reason why I moved from pre-millennialism to a millennialism and I'll state this probably in five minutes I Kept reading the New Testament. Which seemed consistently over and over again to teach that physical death terminates with the second coming of Christ.

When is when is the death of death? When does death die? When is it swallowed up in victory? I would agree with Doug on this point at the second coming of Jesus first Corinthians 15 50 to 58. It is when the the Lord returns and we are changed corruptible to incorruptible that Death exciting the pastor from Isaiah death is swallowed up in victory.

I also kept reading the New Testament. It seemed to me and here's where I differ with Doug. That at the second coming of Christ is the inauguration of the new heavens the new earth not a thousand years later.

I also in reading the New Testament referring to Romans 8 Came to understand that the curse is lifted from this present earth. That the the natural order is redeemed and enters into the fullness of its regeneration Simultaneously with that which occurs to the children of God.

They are they are co-related as Doug said and so that the curse is Completely lifted from the natural order at the same time. It is lifted from us and therefore I don't see how you can have a thousand years after that in which unbelievers and eventually even Satan himself Wreak havoc upon this earth because that would say the curse perpetuates beyond the Second Advent.

So you're saying that all these other texts in the New Testament? Control and determine your reading of Revelation 20. Largely, you know, no, no, let me finish not not entirely but largely you're right I'm sitting here at one time, but let me just make it clear because we'll come to this.

I'm not an amillennialist in spite of Revelation 20. I'm an amillennialist precisely because of I think it is enthusiastically clear on Amillennialism. Well, but let me talk about that. Yeah. Yeah, let me finish my point.

I also believe as I read the New Testament that the second coming of Christ terminates all possibility of getting saved. It's this age in which salvation is possible. But as Jim said There are going to be countless who knows thousands if not millions come into faith in Christ after the second coming.

I don't see that in the New Testament furthermore. It seems to me I and I agree with Doug on this that at the second coming of Christ is the final Resurrection for both the good and the evil at the second coming of Christ is the final judgment for both good and evil and so I Kept seeing the New Testament say that at the second coming of Jesus all these things terminate consummate conclude.

Which would preclude the thousand-year reign that I formerly believed which says physical death continues. Resurrections continue judgments are continuing and are separated and maybe even occur multiple times throughout the whole thousand years.

People keep coming to faith in Christ. The text that I read in the New Testament simply would not allow that to happen. Can I ask you a question? Sure. Okay at the end of the Gospels. How does Judas die?

How does he how does he perish at the how does his physical body die at the end of the Gospels. Is this a trick question? No, no, I'm asking about the Gospels. In the Gospels he hung himself, right. Does that preclude what acts tells us about how he dies?

Because that's the way you're arguing. No, it's not. Yes. It is dead when he hung himself. He died. He didn't die again an act but all acts tells us is that he fell headlong and his insides bust out, right?

So and so he hangs himself the way you're are gently then you're harmonizing. Yeah, you're harmonizing. Well, sure why can't we harmonize what Revelation 20 says with what all these other texts say about when the resurrection.

If death dies at the second coming then why can't we say the Gospels don't allow the fact that he fell headlong in his insides. But he only died once. He only died once he didn't die at the end of the Gospels, but I'm dying.

Do you believe he died twice? No, no, I'm saying we're harmonizing the two passages. We're harmonizing the death of Judas from what at what the Gospels tell us and what acts tells us and I'm saying that We can do the same thing.

So you it seems to me that your main argument against premillennialism is the rest of the New Testament precludes that interpretation. Absolutely, and I'm arguing that that is that's your problem. Not the Bible's problem.

All I know the Bible gives us this information I don't know is it's our responsibility to put it together. It's 1550 and following we shall not all sleep. We shall be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.

The last trumpet so I'm putting that together that dead will be raised in Paris our responsibility. It's not the Bible's problem. But wait a minute, let me point out earlier in first Corinthians 15 Paul says very clearly That well, let me say this I'm saying that that talking about the resurrection then comes the end when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father.

After destroying every rule and every authority and power for he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. You're let me just finish and Then in that same chapter He then tells us when death dies when that last enemy is Put to rest and in sites the prophecy from Isaiah death is swallowed up in victory death.

Where is your victory death? Where is your sting? It happens at the second coming. But you're my point is how that is an exhaustive revelation people continue to die physically. After the second coming your view demands that what Paul tells us in first Corinthians 15 is exhaustive.

In other words about the termination of physical death. Absolutely. Well, it's it's exhaustive. It's exhaustive on enemies. There's the last enemy to be destroyed is death and and I think that I want to respond to you the same way.

That that I suspect maybe Simeon, you know when he talks about the sword that's gonna pierce Mary's soul. Might have responded to some triumphant messianic conquering King person interpreter, you know, Simeon I think would probably say.

Don't you think it's possible that the Messiah might have to suffer? And and and I think that conquering Messiah person would say no Psalm 2 and Isaiah 9 and all these other texts preclude that Interpretation just like you're saying and I don't think it's possible.

God can weave these things together. So the question is but what does Revelation 20 teach?

But Jim you'd have to you'd have to come up with with the Simeon thing you the person the discussion would say. Are you've got these triumphant Messiah and then you've got the suffering servant. You've got a Bunch-of-texts that would that would require the harmonization there in in the situation here.

What you would need is texts that talk about Enemies to be subdued after the last enemy is subdued and that's that's the difficulty. So there's harmonization and there's so on the axe case I think all of us who've gone through the synoptics know what harmonization looks like but there sometimes I think we've all seen well-meaning Christians harmonizing away and there was too much there to harmonize again.

I say the question is what does Revelation 20 teach and if it teaches that there's a millennium? It's our responsibility to put it together with with the rest of the Bible not to say Revelation 20 can't be teaching that and I'm going to look for another way.

I would say if Revelation 20 teaches A premillennial view as you articulate it. I have to abandon biblical inerrancy. No, no, no, you don't know. No, there's no no, I do wait. Well, good grief. Well, no, yes I do because it would teach me something Explicitly contrary to what Paul is teaching me.

You just need to go reread that passage and be a little bit more creative and imaginative in your I think I could give you.

A plausible interpretation of verses 50 to 58 of first Corinthians 15 that would make room for the millennium. I think you're Absolutizing the death of death there when you don't need to if if you're required to Let millennium happen.

You'd read that text and you say it's not absolutized. My death is overcome the decisive blow is struck, but it's loose. It's it's open to expansion and death.

Decisively happens there, but if that were all that Paul said about what happens at the second coming. But I believe he also says that that's when the resurrection occurs for both the good and the evil.

I believe he also says as in second Thessalonians 1 That it is at that time that the lost are cast into eternal destruction and not a thousand years later Prophets make it sound like when the Messiah comes The New Age is gonna dawn the deserts gonna bloom the spirits gonna be poured out on hot from on high and and we believe Happen Jesus came and some those blessings reach back and took Hold of the present in an already not yet kind of way.

So already in many ways, but not yet like it's going to be someday and see Jim I would and you can do the same things with what you're talking about in I want to go to. I don't believe you can and I will just simply say this I believe that I Believe that Revelation 20 Confirms and supports the good.

Well, let's go there. Yes, I believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. I believe John is consistent with Paul as we go to Revelation 20.

I'd like to I'd like to say something about it. And that is that the thousand you've got a thousand years in Revelation 20 at the near the climax of the book, which is crammed full of.

Symbols numbers. You've got. So let's interpret the symbols in relationship to each other, right? Okay, and let's interpret the numbers and the periods of time in relationship. Don't don't relativize it too quickly.

Yeah. Just flatten the symbols as though they don't mean anything. No, we don't know. Here's the guy.

I'm agreeing. I want him to walk us through the text. And and you you say it is precisely because of the text that you are a Amillennialist. And you say it's precisely because of the text that you are.

So we're here and we've got a half an hour.

Roughly and there's a hermit that I'd like to just throw this hermeneutical principle. You interpret the clear text. The the unclear text in the light of the clear text. Okay. Now we all agree with that in principle.

Yes, the devil's in the details. Yes. Yes, amen.

Revelation 20 and Revelation 9

So then I saw an angel coming down from heaven holding his hand in his hand the key to the bottom of the relation Trevor 20 verse 1 and a great chain and I just want to observe. That there's an angel coming down from heaven here and and if you look back at Revelation chapter 9 verse 1 The fifth angel blows his trumpet.

I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth. He was given the key to the shaft of a bottomless pit. Let's say the angel is symbolic. Let's say the shaft is symbolic. Let's say the key is symbolic in Revelation 9.

They open the bottomless pit and all these demonic beings come rushing out. The opposite of that is about to happen in Revelation 20, okay. So let's interpret the symbols in relationship to each other.

Amen. So this guy in Revelation 20 verse 1 has the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. Note the key and the chain verse 2. He seized the dragon that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan and bound him key chain seized.

Bound for a thousand years comment on the thousand years. We've got all these periods of time in Revelation. We've got an hour. We've got ten days. We've got Forever and ever and a thousand years is different from all those symbols, right?

An hour is a period of time that the that the Beast is going to have authority in Revelation 7 17 12. Ten days is how long one of those churches is going to suffer back in Revelation 2 a thousand years is a different symbol.

No, it's it's a different period of time than those other periods of time. No. It's not ten days. No, but you got also got 42 months you've got right he's just it's different. I don't know why you're saying it.

My point is I would argue that those 42 month periods Interpret the whole time between the two advents of Christ and now we've got a different period of time agree with you. Yeah, we've got a different period of time a thousand years.

That's describing something different than that symbolic. It's just different. Yeah, it's a different symbolizing something different is what I'm saying. It's symbolizing the same period. Well, we would have to we'd have to flesh out the details, okay, keep going.

Okay, so he throws him into the pit in verse 3 and he shut it and he sealed it and let me just observe. There's a key. There's a chain. He seizes the dragon. He binds him. He throws him in the pit. He shuts the pit and he seals the pit over him so that he might not deceive the nation's any longer until the thousand years were ended now if this is the same period as The church age the 42 months we look back at Revelation chapter 12 where I would argue in Revelation 12 verses 7 through 12 We have a sort of cosmic depiction of Christ's triumph on the cross and Satan is thrown down to the earth.

And he's not bound verses 13 through 17 He sees that he has a short period of time and he goes off to make war on the woman and her seed. Which I think is persecution of the church. So so according to your reading Sam Satan is both making war on the church and her the woman and her seed the church and he's bound and chained and Cannot deceive the nation absolutely longer.

Absolutely and and and I think I think that is taking two symbols that are meant to communicate different ideas and Flattening them and making them the same thing. Okay, that's your sound like we did sound about 10 minutes ago.

Let me respond. Okay first of all Talking about Revelation 12 and Revelation 20. We have two scenes here that are designed to describe Manifestations of the victory of Christ through his life death and resurrection and exaltation of the right hand of the Father Revelation 12 we have this this scene of a battle between Michael and his angels and Satan and his.

We have this this idea of Satan is cast down from heaven to earth. Well, we don't mean that in a literal Spatio-geographical sense because certainly you're not gonna say that Satan was never on the earth before because Jesus encountered him in the wilderness.

Job certainly had Encounters with him. So what's the point? What's the the end what's the meaning of the symbols or the or the imagery? It is that by virtue of what Christ has accomplished described in the first part of Revelation 12 Satan can no longer accuse the brethren with any degree of success, but that's exactly what he does in Revelation 13 the next chapter.

So the point is that by virtue of what Christ has accomplished the legal strength of his accusations against us are Empty Romans 8 who shall bring anything to the charge of God's leg. God is the one who justifies.

How is that portrayed with regard to Satan? It's portrayed as a casting down to the earth. Well, guess what? He's already been here. It's not as if he never was before and it's not as if he isn't in heaven as well.

So he's describing the Revelation 12 that manifestation of the victory of Christ over the enemy Revelation 20 he's describing another manifestation with different symbolism now. He's saying because of the life-death resurrection exaltation of Christ Satan is also restrained with regard to deceiving the nations lest They provoke as it were a premature Armageddon because he says in verse 7 that when he gets out of the Abyss after the thousand years, what does he do?

He goes forth to deceive the nations to gather them together in a cosmic battle against the people of God, right? So we have two chapters. Both of which are describing the effects of the life-death resurrection exaltation of Christ on the powers of darkness.

They're using different symbolism different imagery to describe different aspects of his victory. One The accuser can no longer bring a successful charge against God's people. Another the accuser can no longer deceive the nations prevent the gospel from going to the ends of the earth or Prematurely provoke Armageddon.

Okay, they're perfectly compatible and I think they both refer to what happened in the first century in conjunction. Okay, the first time I think there are two reasons why you can't read Revelation 12 as though it's describing the same thing as Revelation 20.

Number one. Well, not the same thing. I just said they're different manifest a different expressions of the same reality of The reality of the effect of the life death and resurrection of Jesus on the power.

Okay, and I would argue that the details of the two passages are two different so that in at the end of Revelation 12 Satan is making war on the Saints and in chapter 13, he's given authority for 42 months now.

Now, how can he have authority for 42 months while he's Seized and bound and shut and sealed in the pit. It's very simple. You have to ask the question Seized and bound and shut up with respect to what well to deceiving the nations and provoking with a global assault.

It's exactly what he's doing in Revelation 11 through 13. So the other reason that that I think your interpretation just utterly fails with all love to you. And I appreciate you and and brother, you know that I love you Is is the literary structure of the book?

So I think we have to ask ourselves the question Why does the seventh trumpet? Come right in the middle of the book and not at the end of the book and I would argue that the reason is because so you have Revelation 11 15 through 19 where the seventh trumpet is blown and The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ on either side of that in rebel the first part of Revelation 11 and Revelation 12 into the first part of 13 you have Satan making war on the church in those two passages.

That's the way I would read those passages.

The Clear Passage of Matthew 28 and the Mission of the Church

If it would be helpful. Go ahead. I feel that it will be helpful. I think this is an illustration of the hermeneutical principle that I wanted to start with you interpret the unclear passage in the light of the clear one.

All right, so. Matthew 21 28 Jesus came and said unto them all powers given unto me in heaven and on earth Go ye therefore and teach all nations Baptizing and in the name of the Father and the Son of the Holy Holy Ghost Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever.

I've commanded you and lo I'm with you always even under the end of the world.

Second Corinthians. For this is for in their case the God of this world has Blinded the minds of the unbelievers to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ. And so forth first Peter 5 God Satan is prowling around out of this like a roaring lion Seeking whom he not made of our God.

He thinks he thinks that.

Freedom of the devil stopped at 70 80. God of this age. So Jesus said.

See, I would agree with you on that Jim. I thought and I would think we have shifting. Where was he going. Are you saying that. No. No. First, yeah, okay, let's get your lost control. Yeah.

Here's Matthew 28. What was the point the point in Matthew is Jesus gives the church our marching orders. What's unclear about it? He says I have all authority in heaven and on earth. It's all mine, right?

Okay, and He says on that basis go Disciple the nations baptizing them teaching them obedience. This is a clear passage. It's not clear about the implications of how free the devil is. What it's clear about what we're told to do.

Yeah. All right. We're told to disciple the nations baptize them and teach them obedience because Jesus has all authority in heaven and on earth and there's there's no Symbolic numerology here. Okay, there's no there's there's no dragons or women or or or or or trumpets or or rivers of blood or until the point with regard to the Point is that when I read Matthew 28 and I get the church's marching orders, this is a clear passage.

We're told what to do. Yeah, we're told to evangelize the world. We're told to disciple the nations and Jesus said all authority in heaven on earth. That's the basis for now in rebel and this drives how we are to read Revelation.

So when we get to Revelation and and we're told That the time is short the time is near this is all this is coming at you like a freight train. It's almost on top of us and then in the very beginning of the book He says and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his father to him be glory and dominion forever 1 6 and then in 5 it says in chapter 5 It says and has made us unto our God kings and priests and we shall reign on the earth.

Okay, this is not a heavenly reign. This is we shall reign on the earth now. When I go through the book of Revelation one of the things I try to do and this is sort of just like a principled ambiguity earlier a principled not agnosticism.

I but I want to read through the book of Revelation sitting loose to the details because I Could quote Chesterton. He said that That st. John the Divine saw many strange monsters in his vision, but none so strange as any one of his own commentators and one of the things that I think that we need to do is say look, I think the consensus of the Christian Church through 2 ,000 years is that the book of Revelation is not as Clear as the book of Romans the book of Revelation is not as clear as the book of Galatians.

We have so what do we hold? What what should be the governing principle the governing text? I think our marching orders to evangelize the world to preach the gospel to every creature. To exercise this sort of spiritual authority through the gospel and through the gospel only Should come it should bring us to the point where we say, okay now I come to the book of Revelation.

I come to the 20th the 20th chapter. I have this I Agree with you that you've got time Indicators half an hour in heaven and you know 42 months and that sort of thing. But you have a thousand you have a hundred and forty four you have 1 ,200 stadia as the lengths of the sides of the New Jerusalem, which is a perfect cube all of these indicate that I'm dealing with apocalyptic literature.

That was a genre that was and it sounds like you don't want to try to interpret it. No, I'm want to try to interpret it, but I want to do it in a post-millennial setting where we have lots of time.

We Been working on it for 2 ,000 years. Yep.

And the only thing and I believe that we will need lots of time in order to work through. In order to work through it. I do believe that it was a revelation not. Hiding, you know, it's an unveiling. It's a.

It's meant to bless us and reveal certain things to us.

But I think we have a revelation 20.

I think we have to go to Revelation 20 knowing that that is going to be a harder nut for us to crack.

Yeah, then so let's let him keep cracking for a few more minutes. All right.

The Binding of Satan and the Thousand Years

So so in verses 1 through 3 of Revelation 20, it looks to me like Satan's activity is totally shut down. No. No longer is the world first John 5 19 under the power of the evil one. Now the evil one is in the pit and the pit is shut and it's sealed.

And then verse 4 I saw thrones and seated on them were those to whom authority to judge was committed. Also, I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus. They were physically killed right and For the Word of God and who had not worshipped the Beast.

That's what everybody was tempted to do back in Revelation 13 5. The Beast has this head. He's got seven heads and one of the heads has a mortal wound and one of and it came back to life and I think the Point is the Beast has faked something like the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus so the Beast has done something that looks like what God has done and All these and the whole world worships it except for Revelation 13 8 those whose names are written in the book of life.

And so forth. Who do you believe the beheaded are the beheaded are those who didn't worship the Beast or its image in verse? We're here. Where do you place them in history. All. I would say all.

Faithful believers throughout church history. Okay, even though the Beast is not throughout all church history.

No, I know the Beast has authority for 42 months and and before that the first. Well, depending on how you interpret those 42 months I would suggest that either those 42 months are the second half of Daniel 70th week or maybe the whole of Christian church history.

Okay, right the way Revelation tells us exactly Who the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus for the Word of God are earlier in chapter 6? I looked under the altar to the right and saw the souls of those who had been slain for the Word of God for the witness they Had born precisely the same Greek language is used.

He's talking about those in the intermediate state. No, no, no. No, yes, but Sam. To them after the intermediate state at the end of verse 4 they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

So first the Beast Revelation 13 5 has authority for 42 months. Revelation 13 8 he kills he makes war on the church and beheads these people and then after the intermediate state They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years and then verse 5 the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.

There's two resurrections one on each side of a thousand years and then at the end of verse 5 there. This is the first resurrection in T. Wright Whom you love and in T. Wright looks at all of the the uses of Anastasis and related terms all through Greek letter literature leading up to Revelation 20 and he says that for this to mean something other than Bodily life after life after death your intermediate state would be a radical innovations innovation in it and he says it would stretch the usage.

Beyond the breaking point. I've got the page number and resurrection of the Son of God if you want me to give it to you I am gonna have a chance and and and then he says lest we be projected into Premillennial literalism, which I think he's just saying.

I don't want to be a prominent premillennialist. What we have here is essentially a radical innovation in the use of resurrection language. Let's back up a little bit.