Evening of Eschatology part 3

Wow, there are so many things that both that they've both said that I agree with and many things that I disagree with First of all, you're representing a view that I don't like the label

But I'm a millennial because it suggests that I don't believe in a millennium. I believe the millennium is literal real vibrant Tangible, but it's in heaven and I think that what what

Doug described as the intermediate state Where your father is right now where my father is right now where Jonathan Edwards is right now where Augustine is right now those are

The Saints described in Revelation 20 verse 4 through 6 who are reigning with Christ in the intermediate state

Spanning the duration of the present church age between the two comings of Jesus that constitutes the millennial reign

So I don't embrace the millennia the amillennial view which I hear so often expressed that It's the reign of Christ over the hearts of his people in the church right now.

I don't believe that I think the millennial reign is The reign of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus He's talking about those in the intermediate state between the two comings of Christ So do you believe very much in a millennium?

In fact, it's interesting There was no such label as amillennialism really until about the early 20th century all amillennialists were called post millennialist

I'm post millennial in the way that Doug is in the sense that I believe that the return of Christ comes post or after The Millennium his

Millennium is on the earth It's the progressive triumph of the church through the gospel and the power of the

Holy Spirit. I Believe the Millennium is in heaven. It constitutes the reign of Christ with his

Saints in the intermediate state So I would agree with Jim that the problem that I have with Doug's view

Is that when I read 2nd Corinthians 4 and 6 and Romans 8 and elsewhere?

I believe that the the people of God on the earth will continue to suffer That that's a global phenomenon that may be more intense in one side of the earth than the other we don't suffer here

We can't even we shouldn't even allow to be allowed to say that when we think of our brothers and sisters in China or in Iran or In Indonesia and other places

But suffering will continue good and evil will follow parallel paths there will be the expansion of the kingdom of Satan and the intensification of his persecution of the church at the same time that there is an expansion of the gospel and The progressive triumph of Jesus and that these will be terminated consummated in the second coming of Christ At which time there will be the final judgment final resurrection the inauguration of the eternal state the new heavens in the new earth

I Did you mention in the introduction both Jim and I graduate from Dallas seminary? So there was a time when

I embraced very enthusiastically the view that he articulated and Just you held the whole dispensational view, right when

I was in when I was in Dallas it was a couple of years after I got out through George Ladd's influence that I Abandoned dispensationalism and then about 1984 became an all -millennialist

So you went from dispensationalist to historic pre male to a millennial and the reason I did very simply if I can

He's he's a pilgrim. That's right. I'm a sojourner. You think he's almost there, don't you? Just keep going and and the

The reason why I moved from pre -millennialism to a millennialism and I'll state this probably in five minutes

I Kept reading the New Testament Which seemed consistently over and over again to teach that physical death terminates with the second coming of Christ When is when is the death of death?

When does death die? When is it swallowed up in victory? I would agree with Doug on this point at the second coming of Jesus first Corinthians 15 50 to 58 it is when

The the Lord returns and we are changed corruptible to incorruptible that death

Exciting the passage from Isaiah death is swallowed up in victory. I also kept reading the New Testament It seemed to me and here's where I differ with Doug That at the second coming of Christ is the inauguration of the new heavens the new earth not a thousand years later

I also in reading the New Testament referring to Romans 8 Came to understand that the curse is lifted from this present earth

That the the natural order is redeemed and enters into the fullness of its regeneration

Simultaneously with that which occurs to the children of God. They are they are correlated as Doug said and so that the curse is

Completely lifted from the natural order at the same time it is lifted from us and therefore I don't see how you can have a thousand years after that in which unbelievers and eventually even

Satan himself Wreak havoc upon this earth because that would say the curse perpetuates beyond the second advent

So you're saying that all these other texts in the New Testament? Control and determine your reading of Revelation 20

Largely, you know, no, no, let me finish not not entirely but largely you're right I'm sitting here at one time, but let me just make it clear because we'll come to this

I'm not an amillennialist in spite of Revelation 20. I'm an amillennialist precisely because of I think it is enthusiastically clear on Millennialism well, but let me talk about that.

Yeah. Yeah, let me finish my point I also believe as I read the New Testament that the second coming of Christ terminates all possibility of getting saved

It's this age in which salvation is possible. But as Jim said There are going to be countless who knows thousands if not millions come into faith in Christ after the second coming

I don't see that in the New Testament furthermore It seems to me I and I agree with Doug on this that at the second coming of Christ is the final

Resurrection for both the good and the evil at the second coming of Christ is the final judgment for both good and evil and so I Kept seeing the

New Testament say that at the second coming of Jesus all these things terminate consummate conclude

Which would preclude the thousand -year reign that I formally believed which says physical death continues

Resurrections continue judgments are continuing and are separated and maybe even occur multiple times throughout the whole thousand years

People keep coming to faith in Christ The text that I read in the New Testament simply would not allow that to happen.

Can I ask you a question? Sure. Okay at the end of the Gospels. How does Judas die? How does he how does he perish at the how does his physical body die at the end of the

Gospels? Is this a trick question? But I I want to know

Like an axe where he fell. No. No, I'm asking about the Gospels in the Gospels. He hung himself, right?

Does that preclude what axe tells us about how he dies? Because that's the way you're arguing.

No, it's not. Yes. It is dead when he hung himself He died He didn't die again in act

But all axe tells us is that he fell headlong and his insides bust out, right? So so he hangs himself the way you're are gently then you're harmonizing.

Yeah, you're harmonizing Well, sure Why can't we harmonize what Revelation 20 says with what all these other texts say about when the resurrection don't allow it?

If death dies at the second coming, well, then why can't we say the Gospels don't allow the fact that he fell headlong in his insides

But he only died once He only died once he didn't die at the end of the

Gospels, but I didn't die You believe he died twice. No I'm saying we're harmonizing the two passages we're harmonizing the death of Judas from what at what the

Gospels tell us and what axe tells us and I'm saying that We can do the same thing

So you it seems to me that your main argument against premillennialism is the rest of the New Testament precludes that interpretation absolutely, and I'm arguing that That is that's your problem.

Not the Bible's problem All I know Bible gives us this information. I don't know It's our responsibility to put it together.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, 50 and following We shall not all sleep We shall be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet

The last trumpet, the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised and perished. So putting that together with Revelation is our responsibility It's not the

Bible's problem. But there's harmonization. The Bible is not precluding this interpretation. But Jim, but wait a minute Let me point out earlier in 1

Corinthians 15 Paul says very clearly that, well let me ask you this, what he's saying that Talking about the resurrection, then comes the end when he delivers the kingdom to God the

Father After destroying every rule and every authority and power For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

The last enemy to be destroyed is death Let me just finish and then in that same chapter

He then tells us when death dies, when that last enemy is Put to rest and incites the prophecy from Isaiah.

Death is swallowed up in victory. Death Where is your victory? Death? Where is your sting? It happens at the second coming

But your point is how then millions of people continue to die physically after the second coming

Your view demands that what Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15 is exhaustive In other words, about the termination of physical death.

Absolutely. Well, it's exhaustive. It's exhaustive on enemies The last enemy to be destroyed is death and I think that I want to respond to you the same way

That that I suspect maybe Simeon, you know when he talks about the sword that's going to pierce

Mary's soul Might have responded to some triumphant messianic conquering king person interpreter, you know

Simeon I think would probably say Don't you think it's possible that the Messiah might have to suffer?

And and and I think that conquering Messiah person would say no Psalm 2 and Isaiah 9 and all these other texts

Preclude that interpretation just like you're saying and I don't think it's a sign God can weave these things together

So the question is but what does Revelation 20 teach? But Jim you'd have to you'd have to come up with with the

Simeon thing You the person the discussion would say are you've got these triumphant Messiah and then you've got the suffering servant

You've got a bunch of texts that would that would require the harmonization there in in the situation here what you would need is texts that talk about Enemies to be subdued after the last enemy is subdued and that's that's the difficulty

So there's harmonization and there's so on the axe case I think all of us who've gone through the synoptics know what harmonization looks like but there's sometimes

I think we've all seen well -meaning Christians harmonizing away and there was too much there to harmonize again

I say the question is what does Revelation 20 teach and if it teaches that there's a millennium?

It's our responsibility to put it together with with the rest of the Bible not to say Revelation 20 can't be teaching that and I'm going to look for another way.

I would say if Revelation 20 teaches A pre -millennial view as you articulate it.

I have to abandon biblical inerrancy. No, no, no, no, you don't know Wait, well good great

Well, no, yes I do because it would teach me something Explicitly contrary to what

Paul is teaching me You just need to go reread that passage and be a little bit more creative and imaginative in your

I think I could give you Plausible interpretation of verses 50 to 58 of first Corinthians 15 that would make room for the millennium

I think you're absolutizing the death of death there when you don't need to if if you're required to Let millennium happen you'd read that text and you say it's not absolutized

My death is overcome it did decisive blow is struck, but it's loose. It's it's open to expansion and death

Decisively happens there If that were all that Paul said about what happens at the second coming

But I believe he also says that that's when the resurrection occurs for both the good and the evil I believe he also says as in second

Thessalonians 1 That it is at that time that the lost are cast into eternal destruction and not a thousand years later

Prophets make it sound like when the Messiah comes The New Age is gonna dawn the deserts gonna bloom the spirits gonna be poured out on hot from on high and and we believe

It Jesus came and some those blessings reach back and took

Hold of the present in an already not yet kind of way So already in many ways, but not yet like it's going to be someday and see

Jim I would you can do the same things with what you're talking about in I want to go I don't believe you can and I will just simply say this

I believe that I believe that Revelation 20

Confirms and supports the good. Well, let's go there. Yes Even the inerrancy of Scripture. I believe

John is consistent with Paul as we go to Revelation 20 I'd like to I'd like to say something about it.

And that is that the thousand you've got a thousand years in Revelation 20 at the near the climax of the book, which is crammed full of Symbols numbers

You've got so hundred interpret the symbols in relationship to each other, right? Okay, and let's interpret the numbers and the periods of time in relationship.

Don't don't relativize it too quickly. Yeah Just flatten the symbols as though they don't mean anything. No, we don't know.

Here's the guy I'm agreeing I want him to walk us through the text and and you you say it is precisely because of the text that you are a

Amillennialist and you say it's precisely because the text that you are so we're here and we've got a half an hour Roughly and there's a hermit that I'd like to just throw this hermeneutical principle.

You interpret the clear text The the unclear text in the light of the clear text. Okay. Now we all agree with that in principle

Yes, the devil's in the details. Yes Yes Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven holding his hand in his hand the key to the bottom revelation 20 verse 1 and a great chain and I just want to observe that There's an angel coming down from heaven here.

And and if you look back at Revelation chapter 9 verse 1 The fifth angel blows his trumpet.

I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth He was given the key to the shaft of a bottomless pit. Let's say the angel is symbolic.

Let's say the shaft is symbolic Let's say the key is symbolic in Revelation 9 They open the bottomless pit and all these demonic beings come rushing out

The opposite of that is about to happen in Revelation 20. Okay, so let's interpret the symbols in relationship to each other

Amen So this guy in Revelation 20 verse 1 has the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain

Note the key and the chain verse 2 He seized the dragon that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan and bound him key chain seized bound for a thousand years

Comment on the thousand years. We've got all these periods of time in Revelation. We've got an hour. We've got ten days.

We've got Forever and ever and a thousand years is different from all those symbols, right?

An hour is a period of time that the that the beast is going to have authority in Revelation 7 17 12

Ten days is how long one of those churches is going to suffer back in Revelation 2 a thousand years is a different symbol

No, it's it's a different period of time than those other periods of time. No It's not ten days

No, but we got also got 42 months. You've got right. He's just it's different. I don't know why you're saying it My point is

I would argue that those 42 month periods Interpret the whole time between the two advents of Christ and now we've got a different period of time.

I agree with you Yeah, we've got a different period of time a thousand years. That's describing something different than that's symbolic.

It's just different Yeah, it's symbolizing something different is what I'm saying. It's symbolizing the same period

Well, we would have to we'd have to flesh out the details. Okay, keep going Okay, so he throws him into the pit in verse 3 and he shut it and he sealed it and let me just observe

There's a key. There's a chain. He seizes the dragon. He binds him. He throws him in the pit He shuts the pit and he seals the pit over him so that he might not deceive the nation's any longer until the thousand years were ended now if this is the same period as The church age the 42 months we look back at Revelation chapter 12

Where I would argue in Revelation 12 verses 7 through 12 we have a sort of cosmic depiction of Christ's triumph on the cross and Satan is thrown down to the earth and He's not bound verses 13 through 17

He sees that he has a short period of time and he goes off to make war on the woman and her seed

Which I think is persecution of the church. So so according to your reading Sam Satan is both making war on the church and hers the woman and her seed the church and he's bound and chained and Cannot deceive the nation.

Absolutely any longer. Absolutely and and and I think I think that is taking two symbols that are meant to communicate different ideas and Flattening them and making them the same thing.

Okay, that's your sound like we did sound about ten minutes ago. Let me respond.

Okay first of all Talking about Revelation 12 and Revelation 20, we have two scenes here that are designed to describe

Manifestations of the victory of Christ through his life death and resurrection and exaltation of the right hand of the Father Revelation 12 we have this this scene of a battle between Michael and his angels and Satan and his

We have this this idea of Satan is cast down from heaven to earth Well, we don't mean that in a literal spatio geographical sense because certainly you're not gonna say that Satan was never on the earth before because Jesus encountered him in the wilderness

Job certainly had Encounters with him. So what's the point? What's the the end what's the meaning of the symbols or the or the imagery?

It is that by virtue of what Christ has accomplished described in the first part of Revelation 12 Satan can no longer accuse the brethren with any degree of success

But that's exactly what he does in Revelation 13 the next chapter second So the point is that by virtue of what

Christ has accomplished the legal strength of his accusations against us are

Empty Romans 8 who shall bring anything to the charge of God's elect. God is the one who justifies How is that portrayed with regard to Satan?

It's portrayed as a casting down to the earth. Well, guess what? He's already been here It's not as if he never was before and it's not as if he isn't in heaven as well

So he's describing the Revelation 12 that manifestation of the victory of Christ over the enemy

Revelation 20 he's describing another manifestation with different symbolism now.

He's saying because of the life -death resurrection exaltation of Christ Satan is also restrained with regard to deceiving the nations lest they provoke as it were a premature

Armageddon because he says in verse 7 that when he gets out of the Abyss after the thousand years

What does he do he goes forth to deceive the nations to gather them together in a cosmic battle against the people of God, right?

So we have two chapters Both of which are describing the effects of the life -death resurrection exaltation of Christ on the powers of darkness

They're using different symbolism different imagery to describe different aspects of his victory one

The accuser can no longer bring a successful charge against God's people Another the accuser can no longer deceive the nation's prevent the gospel from going to the ends of the earth or prematurely provoke

Armageddon Okay, they're perfectly compatible and I think they both refer to what happened in the first century in conjunction.

Okay the first time I think there are two reasons why you can't read Revelation 12 as though it's describing the same thing as Revelation 20 number one

Well, not the same thing. I just said they're different Manifest a different expressions of the same reality of the reality of the effect of the life death and resurrection of Jesus on the power

Okay, and I would argue that the details of the two passages are too different So that in at the end of Revelation 12

Satan is making war on the Saints and in chapter 13 He's given authority for 42 months now.

Now, how can he have authority for 42 months while he's Seized and bound and shut and sealed in the pit.

It's very simple You have to ask the question Wait, let me give you my second reason why I don't seized and bound and shut up with respect to what well to deceiving the nations

And provoking with a global assault exactly what he's doing in Revelation 11 through 13

So the other reason that that I think your interpretation just utterly fails with all love to you

And I appreciate you and brother, you know that I love you is the literary structure of the book

So I think we have to ask ourselves the question Why does the seventh trumpet? come right in the middle of the book and not at the end of the book and I would argue that the reason is

Because so you have Revelation 11 15 through 19 where the seventh trumpet is blown and the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our

Lord and of his Christ on either side of that in rebel the first part of Revelation 11 and Revelation 12 into the first part of 13 you have

Satan making war on the church in those two passages That's the way I would read those passages Can I throw something in here?

If it would be helpful Go ahead I feel that it will be helpful

I think this is an illustration of the hermeneutical principle that I wanted to start with You interpret the unclear passage in the light of the clear one

All right, so Matthew 21 28 Jesus came and said unto them all powers given unto me in heaven and on earth

Go ye therefore and teach all nations Baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son of the Holy Ghost Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever

I have commanded you and lo I am with you always even unto the end of the world 2 Corinthians 4

In their case the God of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ 1

Peter 5 Satan is prowling around Like a roaring lion

Seeking whom he never made of our He thinks that freedom of the devil stopped at 70

AD God of this age So Jesus said See I would agree with you on that Jim And I would think

First John 5 Where was he going? Finish finish finish

It's his turn First John 5 I lost control

Matthew 28 What was the point? The point in Matthew is Jesus gives the church our marching orders

What's unclear about it? He says I have all authority in heaven and on earth It's all mine

And He says on that basis Go disciple the nations

Baptizing them teaching them obedience This is a clear passage It's not clear about the implications of how free the devil is

It's clear about what we're told to do We're told to disciple the nations Baptize them and teach them obedience

Because Jesus has all authority in heaven and on earth And there's no Symbolic numerology here

There's no dragons Or women Or Or trumpets

Or rivers of blood And so the point The point is

That when I read Matthew 28 And I get the church's marching orders This is a clear passage

We're told what to do We're told to evangelize the world We're told to disciple the nations

And Jesus said all authority in heaven and on earth That's the basis for it And this drives

How we are to read Revelation So when we get to Revelation And we're told

That the time is short The time is near This is all This is coming at you like a freight train

It's almost on top of us And then in the very beginning of the book He says and hath made us kings and priests

Unto God and his father To him be glory and dominion forever In 1 6 And then in 5

It says and has made us unto our God Kings and priests

And we shall reign on the earth This is not a heavenly reign This is we shall reign on the earth

Now When I go through the book of Revelation One of the things I try to do

And this is sort of just like A principled ambiguity earlier A principled not agnosticism

But I want to read Through the book of Revelation Sitting loose to the details

Because If I could quote Chesterton He said that Saint John the

Divine Saw many strange monsters in his vision But none so strange as any one of his own commentators And one of the things

That I think that we need to do Is say look I think the consensus of the Christian Church Through 2 ,000 years

Is that the book of Revelation Is not as clear As the book of Romans The book of Revelation is not as clear

As the book of Galatians So what do we hold What should be the governing

Principle of the governing text I think our marching orders To evangelize the world To preach the gospel to every creature

To exercise this sort of spiritual authority Through the gospel and through the gospel only Should bring us to the point

Where we say okay Now I come to the book of Revelation I come to the 20th chapter

I have I agree with you That you've got time indicators

Half an hour in heaven And you know 42 months But you have 1 ,000

You have 144 You have 1 ,200 stadia As the lengths of the sides of the New Jerusalem Which is a perfect cube

All of these indicate That I'm dealing with apocalyptic literature That was a genre

And it sounds like you don't want to try to interpret it No I want to try to interpret it But I want to do it in a post -millennial setting

Where we have lots of time Laughter Applause Laughter We've been working on it for 2 ,000 years

And the only thing And I believe that we will need lots of time In order to work through In order to work through it

I do believe that it was a revelation Not a hiding You know it's an unveiling

It's meant to bless us And reveal certain things To us Can we go back to Revelation 20

I think we have to go to Revelation 20 Knowing that that is going to be

A harder nut for us to crack So let's let him keep cracking For a few more minutes So in verses 1 through 3

Of Revelation 20 It looks to me like Satan's activity is totally shut down No longer is the world 1

John 5 19 Under the power of the evil one Now the evil one is in the pit

And the pit is shut And it's sealed And then verse 4 I saw thrones and seated on them Were those to whom authority to judge was committed

Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded For the testimony of Jesus They were physically killed

And for the word of God And who had not worshipped the beast That's what everybody was

Tempted to do back in Revelation 13 5 The beast has this Head, he's got seven heads

And one of the heads has a mortal wound And it came back to life And I think the point is The beast has faked something like the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus So the beast has done something

That looks like what God has done And the whole world worships it Except for Revelation 13 8

Those whose names are written in the book of life And so forth Who do you believe the beheaded are? The beheaded are those who didn't worship the beast

Or its image But where do you place them in history? I would say

All faithful believers Throughout church history Even though the beast is not throughout all church history?

No, the beast has authority For 42 months And before that The first, well

Depending on how you interpret those 42 months I would suggest that either those 42 months Are the second half of Daniel's 70th week

Or maybe The whole of Christian church history I agree with that By the way,

Revelation tells us exactly Who the souls of those who had been beheaded For the testimony of Jesus for the word of God are

Earlier in chapter 6 I looked under the altar And saw the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God And for the witness they had borne

Precisely the same Greek language is used And he's talking about those in the intermediate state Yes he is

But look what happens to them After the intermediate state At the end of verse 4 They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years

So first The beast, Revelation 13 5 Has authority for 42 months Revelation 13 8

He kills, he makes war on the church And beheads these people And then after the intermediate state

They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years And then verse 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years

Were ended There's two resurrections One on each side of the thousand years And then at the end of verse 5 there

This is the first resurrection N .T. Wright Whom you love And N .T.

Wright Looks at all of The uses of Anastasis and related terms

All through Greek literature Leading up to Revelation 20 And he says that for this to mean something

Other than bodily Life after life after death Your intermediate state

Would be a radical innovation Innovation And he says it would stretch

The usage beyond The breaking point I've got the page number If you want me to give it to you

And then he says Lest we be projected

Into premillennial literalism Which I think he's just saying I don't want to be a premillennialist