A Defense of Cessationism part 9

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A Defense of Cessationism part 10

00:01

Welcome to the truth in love podcast. We are on Siri or episode number nine of our series a defense of cessation ism.

00:12

We hope you will stick with us You Good morning,

00:46

Dan. How you doing? I'm good. Oh, no, I must have breathed in a squirrel or Nat or something.

00:55

I don't know what I got going on over here. Well, good morning, Rob. Good morning. Good morning It is morning as opposed to night when we usually record these episodes

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So bear with us when you watch this just know that we recorded this First thing in the morning and we're gonna do the best that we can we are we are going to try to wrap up This series on the defense of cessation ism as we were discussing just a few minutes ago.

01:19

It's it's difficult Folks on either side can be dogmatic about this use issue and and we could we could decide to be dogmatic about it, but as Dan Poetically said it's hard to it's hard to defend a universal.

01:39

How'd you put it universal negative? Yeah But as we said from the very beginning there there's not a particular verse in Scripture that says

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The Spiritual gifts the sign gifts will cease at this particular

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Day and time and will not continue or and there's not a verse that says that they will continue

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We just have evidence that there was activity in the first century the first century church and and Paul was teaching on their proper usage the

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Holy Spirit was was sharing with us in Scripture that they existed what they were and And as we've been looking at first Corinthians Paul was teaching them.

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They're here. You're abusing them This is their proper usage but there's no

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Particular passage that says this is normative. This will be the case for the rest of time and so you can't be dogmatic and you can't be hard on your other brothers and sisters and Christ on the opposing side of the argument

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But we thank you for if you have if you watched This series we thank you for for watching it.

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We hope that it will be helpful and advice to you We we're trying to be trying to be balanced we're trying to be humble and As we talk about our side of the position,

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I thought you're gonna say if you watch this whole series, we're sorry Maybe maybe that too

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Because we we're working on number nine and we're gonna hopefully wrap up with with ten because You can just take

03:23

Take a series too far and we want to wrap it up So what we're gonna do is we're gonna cover some some questions

03:31

And answer those questions Two of them are from first Corinthians, so we're gonna wrap up first Corinthians Most of the series has been in first Corinthians because that's where like I said

03:42

It's talked about most in Scripture But the first one is going to be related the second question is not going to be related so much to the gifts

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It's gonna be a bonus a bonus question that we're gonna throw in there. But the first one is first Corinthians starting in chapter 14 verse 33

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For God is not a God of confusion, but of peace as in all the churches of the

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Saints verse 34 the women are to keep silent in the churches, but they are not permitted to Speak but are subject to themselves just as the law also says verse 35

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If they desire to learn anything let them ask their own husbands at home Where it is improper for a woman to speak in church

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So here's here's the conflict that I see with this situation

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So if you're coming at it from a continuationist point of view We've been in first Corinthians 12 13 and 14 and a continuationist says

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All right, so all these things are intended to continue Even unto today's church and even beyond us all throughout time.

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These things are supposed to be normative You're supposed to see these things in the church and then you hit a hard break here in verse 34

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Except for this one except for this passage this one this one no longer exists because You allow women to preach you would ordain women in that particular denomination and there are passages that say

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In the last days I will pour my spirit your your sons and your daughters will prophesy

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So they'll cling on to that passage but There it seems a little bit inconsistent

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But then on the opposite side you have the cessationist side that says okay first Corinthians 12 13 and 14 they ceased

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But then this one continues and so What is a balanced understanding

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Dan of this passage so that we are we're being system? I'd say that a balanced understanding of this passage is that it's it's more about orderly worship than it is anything else even going back to Chapter 12 chapter 13

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The the whole the whole thrust of the these chapters is orderly worship you know if He had to break it down for him explain to him.

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You hear our gifts. Here's how you use them But you're over emphasizing them make sure that you're you're focusing in on on charity.

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Hope you know love And Then he comes back and he says now make sure that when you do use your gifts

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Use them in a way that's honoring and glorifying to God edifying to your brothers And then he says now here's the point because he's coming to the end of chapter 14

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Here's the point of everything that I was been saying God is not a god of confusion, but of peace

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So he's talking about orderly worship with that in mind It seems like we're gonna fight this one, okay

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A First thing we said Or not first thing we said this says for God is not a god of confusion

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But a peace they says as in all the churches of the Saints, so this is something that is taking place

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Not only traditionally, but there's also now apostolic record of him saying

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This is this is how we function as a church as a

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No Catholic Church a little see Universal Church, this is how the churches of God Act the women should keep silent in the churches

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So, what does that mean? You know our women like not allowed to sing. Can they not pray?

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Can they not do this that or the other thing and I don't think that's the point of what he's getting at here

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He's not making a large prohibition against women doing stuff, you know broad brush

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But he's talking to a specific purpose Now first Timothy or second?

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Yeah first Timothy 2 He says they're not permitted to preach Because they're not permitted to have authority over man and the same thing here.

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It says that they must be in submission as the law says They're not permitted to speak

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But you also have to remember that back in chapter 11 chapter 11 Chapter 11.

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There was this big long discussion on head coverings. Mm -hmm that However, you feel about head coverings, which is not what we're here to discuss right now

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The purpose of head coverings whether it be the woman's hair or it be a cloth covering on the head was to be while she was praying and prophesying for the for the sake of the angels because angels were offended by an improper

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Ordering of God's creation not because women are less than or have

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Inferior abilities or they are worth less or anything like that. None of that The reason was

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God made man for a specific purpose and then he gave woman as a helper

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He said that that her desire shall be for her husband but he will rule over her the way that God has made creation is

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For man to be a leader until for a wife to be submitted to her husband not as a slave but as a wife a partner one who's cared for and loved as it says in Well all over the

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New Testament, especially in Ephesians Talks about loving your wife and taking care of her as Christ loved the church

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No, even the point of you laying down your life to making sure that your wife has what she's supposed to have so When you come here

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It's it's a continuation of that orderliness principle the way that God has ordered creation

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He's also ordered his church So he doesn't permit women to speak in the church service and then it just gives us a little bit of a clue here in verse 35 if there is anything they desire to learn

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Let them ask their husbands at home as opposed to what as Opposed to asking during the church service

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Now does that mean that women can't ask a pastor something maybe after the service? I mean sure my wife and some of the other ladies at the church

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We'll ask my pastor stuff all the time and it's usually some really good question but the purpose wasn't for them to To go into church

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Interrupt things to ask questions because I mean and I don't know maybe

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I'm stereotyping a little bit but There's there's jokes out there about the different ways that men and women think

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I Mean it. I mean if you've known a woman or if you're a woman if you know the man

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You know that we think differently There was a the joke that a guy picked up the phone

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Talked to his friend for about 10 seconds hung up the phone And his wife asked him.

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What was that? Oh, it was it was Jim. They've been in a car accident They're on the way to the hospital.

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They should be home soon Well, we're the kids in the car,

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I don't know Jim was in an accident He's like he'd be repeating repeat back all the information

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He was in an accident going to the hospital to be home soon, where is the car, okay I don't know

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Jim was in an accident. He went to the hospital. He should be home soon And the woman would go on and on asking question after question.

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He's like I've already told you the extent of our conversation I didn't ask those questions because I was trying to get to a point.

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I think what what Paul is saying here is it's not not because Women ask too many questions and it would disrupt the flow or anything nothing like that What he's what he's getting at is

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The the husband is responsible for Teaching his family he's bringing his family to the church to sit under the preaching of the elders to be under the

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Submit to the elders as the elders go and teach so If someone's going to stand up and ask the question

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Somebody's going to to need to stop something or if Something needs to be done

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Let let the husband do it and if you have questions wives Feel free to ask ask your husband when you're not going to be interrupting the service for what purpose because women do anything wrong or because women this or women that know because of Headship the way that God has set up the world

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And because of orderly worship and it's not ordered according to we've got to make sure our service flows it's ordered according to this is the the

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The way that God wants his church to work because this is the way he's ordered his world He's given man dominion over the creatures.

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He's given woman as a helper for man So each one should know their particular role

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Now I would also say that if you're a man acting as a If you're being loud and boisterous for for no good reason

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Keep silent as well because because you two are supposed to be there in order to In order to have orderly worship for your family and the rest of the

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Saints Well, Paul kind of says that I mean that's sure what you're talking about is is what he's been addressing all along It seems like there's some some chaos.

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There's some disorder in the Corinthian Church. And so he said you if you don't have an interpreter Sit down, you know, don't speak in tongues.

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There needs to be order and and not disorder Yeah, so I think when we especially come to this passage

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We being you know modern American Christians we come to it thinking, you know in terms of gender wars

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Yeah, because I mean like that's in the air we breathe like that's just what we do

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I don't think that's what Paul was getting at here at all He wasn't trying to say anything about women about how they should or shouldn't do this or that ways

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He's trying to say is Remember who you are in creation and in the

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Lord and act accordingly not because you're any less because that wasn't even in his thought process, but because in doing so We are we are going together to be honoring the

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Lord by recognizing his creation and the goodness of it Yeah, yeah, and I think

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Of course because it's our position we're gonna think that we hold the most consistent Interpretation most consistent understanding of this passage, so I don't want to come across as Proper or arrogant in that I just I want to share that's how we believe or why we believe that and not come across as arrogant or prideful in believing that but from the continuationist standpoint

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It seems like it is inconsistent if you want to say that all these things are for today

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Then you're gonna have to say that These passages are for today as well

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But it seems like the continuation is not consistent of that because they are they are ordaining women.

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They they're allowing Women to preach to you know, women hold those type of Offices and and speaking in the church, and so I don't see a consistency there.

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We're on the other hand the Sometimes sometimes Without painting too broad of a brush.

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Yeah. Yeah, and I'm trying not to do that And and I'm trying I'm going to try not to do that on the other questions as well so it will come from personal experience personal observation and and I'm not going to be speaking of everybody because You know

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You just can't do that. Anyway, I'm on the cessationist side Like you're talking about Dan, this is a church order principle

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We do believe that the the spiritual gifts assigned gifts have ceased

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So, why does this continue because it's it's a church order principle and we also have the other admonitions in Scripture like you're talking about in first in Timothy and Titus and Paul's other writings where Women aren't allowed to to preach or hold authority over a man.

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So there's a consistency there in church order in church polity and and so That's why we would say that this particular principle of church order would continue right, you

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Know I would even I would even go Well, my brain quit working

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I'll go a different direction In in a different place in chapter 11, it says that if a woman is going to pray or prophesy

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She should have her head covered It looks like that's talking about in the in the assembly

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So it's not talking about a blanket prohibition. Anyway of of women in the church.

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It's talking about something specific it looks like If if you are going to Pray or prophesy cover your head.

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So you're going to be doing so as it says here in just a little bit No, if one's going to pray

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Or maybe it just said it If one's going to pray let them pray One's gonna have a song, you know, let them have a song but no more than two or three and always interning in order

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So It's not a blanket prohibition against you know women being able to don't walk in and lose your identity as a woman

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It's just about it's it's about ordering But ordering your worship to match

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God's created order Yeah, yeah, absolutely All right, and if you have any questions if you like to challenge us on that Maybe we can we can readdress that and talk about that more

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Because there there is opposition to that understanding of the passage So we'd be glad to take a look at it again if he might has any critiques

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So here's the here's the bonus throw in before we leave first Corinthians, and I want to do before we left left first Corinthians because this is a difficult passage and And We go to on to chapter 15.

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It's not it's not really related to our to our topic So we won't take too much time on it, but wanted to throw in this bonus

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I know this big John says this is one of his his favorite chapters But this is a hard passage first Corinthians chapter 15

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Starting in verse 28 when all things are subjected to him Then the son himself will also be subjected to the one who subjected all things to him so that God may be all in all

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Verse 29 otherwise What will those do who are baptized for the dead if the dead are not raised at all?

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Why then are they baptized for them? so Are we supposed to baptize people for the dead?

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Is that what Paul is teaching in Corinthians? We should all become Mormons No, that's not what it's saying

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The in case you're wondering about that reference the the the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

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Saints the Mormon Church Does have a practice where you are baptized?

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In place of those who who have died yeah In fact we don't have time for it, but there's there's some

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Crazy stories about that particular practice. Maybe we can get into Mormonism some sometime Well, I would say that would be one of the reasons one that particular cult

20:54

Would be or sect cult. No, it's a cult. Yeah. Yeah would be attractive is because you have people who are or caring

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Deeply sorrowful for their lost loved one and this is this will be comforting to that individual

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So that I mean that side of it could be attractive That being baptized for them so that you can ensure that they're going to heaven.

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Yeah, even though it's not biblical well, and here's here's the thing one of the you're right it would be attractive another attractive point is because The Mormon Church claims have an answer to what does this mean?

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Mm -hmm, and I have grabbed commentary after commentary and I have read a

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Lot on this and there's there's a lot of different stuff to it But the the fact of the matter is

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After after all the the reading I came to the conclusion that I don't know what it means

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Yeah, and I don't know. I don't know who does But let's look at it.

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Anyway, because it's look at it in context We can press as hard on it as as we as we can and then just what what we don't understand

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We just have to say we don't understand. So this whole passage Going back into in the verse one of this chapter is talking about the gospel and what the gospel means

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He's talking about how Jesus died for sins according to the scriptures How he was buried and how he rose again on the third day according to the scriptures the whole

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The the whole Christian faith is based on the belief that Jesus Christ came to the earth died and then rose again

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Someone who died body in the grave got up living.

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That's something that just doesn't happen if it did I Don't know what to think but it just doesn't happen.

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So that's why it's incredible that Christ did die and Then rise again

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Which is the whole basis of our faith so the whole the the section goes on it says well, what is basically, what is the what is the the meaning behind this resurrection of the dead and it goes through and it talks about how the the raising of From the dead is one of the reasons why we can trust that our sins are forgiven that we too will be one day raised

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That all things were being put down under Christ's feet every single enemy every ruler dominion power

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And the last enemy we put down is death itself to where death Even though it seems like it's holding on to some folks now

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Will not always do that because death has been defeated. We will all be raised from the dead and the death will be

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Death will be lonely because he won't have anyone because then death and the devil and all the

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Evil angels and those who are who are wicked and unrepentant will be thrown away into the lake of fire.

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Death is going to be gone And so when it comes down here into verse 25, it says

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For he that's Christ Must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet the last enemy to be destroyed is death

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For God has put all things in subjection under his feet That'd be Christ But when it says all things are put into subjection is plain that he is accepted who put all things into subjection under him

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So in other words It's not talking about Christ Christ isn't being subjected because Christ has an equal standing with the

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Father It is plain verse 28 when all things are subjected to him

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Then the Son will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him

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That God may be all in all so We're not talking about some eternal subordination or anything like that We're talking about the way in which

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Christ has has functioned It's a fancy term economically, you know how things have worked out in the world around us

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The Son has done what the Father No has said, you know, that's going to continue to happen

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Even though it looks like the Son is the one in charge, you know, all authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth

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All things are going to to Settle out to where the the

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Trinity is going to exist as the Trinity Exists things are going to be in order as God has declared that they be ordered

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And because of this core foundational belief of The resurrection of the dead

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Paul asked them no, otherwise No, if the resurrection of the dead wasn't a reality

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What did people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead if people weren't going to be raised from the dead?

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Then why are these folks over here rape baptizing people for the dead? Yeah. Now, what does it mean to be baptized for the dead?

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I Don't know Some people think it means that you were actually baptized on top of their grave

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Because of the the Greek prefix I guess you could say that it was on top of the grave or baptized on behalf of the dead

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No, maybe they were going to die and they they hadn't received baptism yet.

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So because no like Peter says Baptism now saves you know not by washing away of dirt

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But an appeal of a clean conscience before God if these people hadn't been baptized and No, like Peter said back in Acts repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins

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Hey these people trusted in Christ, but they have not yet had baptism

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What do we do for them? There were some people it sounds like being baptized on the behalf of those who hadn't yet had baptism now

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Paul isn't here saying that you should be baptized for the dead. He's not prescribing a practice, but he's saying

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If the resurrection wasn't true Then why are people being baptized for the dead if the dead are not going to be raised again?

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It makes no sense So, I really don't know what he's referring to but I do know that he's trying to he's using a

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Practice of baptizing people Or baptizing either the dead or people on behalf of the dead because of the truth of the resurrection and The point of the passage is speaking about the truth of the resurrection

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Because he goes on it says why are we in danger every hour? No Why are we in danger for our belief of the resurrection if the resurrection isn't going to happen?

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No, I protest brothers by my pride in you which I have in Christ Jesus Our Lord I die every day

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What do I gain humanly speaking if I have fought with beasts and Ephesus if the dead are not raised like why am

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I risking? My life if I'm just going to die and not be raised again with Christ It doesn't make any sense.

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Yeah So he he says I do not be deceived bad company ruins good morals

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Wake up from your drunken stupor as is right Do not go on sinning for some have no knowledge of God and I say this to your shame

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And then he goes on in verse 35, but someone will ask how are the dead raised with what kind of a body?

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Do they come? He's it's mad at him Says you foolish person

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What you sow does not come to life unless it dies and he goes on talking about the resurrection of the dead so whatever baptism on behalf of the resurrect on behalf of the dead means

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Whatever that practice was He's bringing it up in order to prove the resurrection of the dead

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Like why would people even engage in this practice at all if the dead are not raised?

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And so when we look at it, I don't know what to say except that's not the purpose of The passage is to understand what baptism of the dead is

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But what is the purpose of the passage is the point is to Christ who died in the place of sinners?

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Who laid in the grave for three days who rose from the dead so he's no longer dead

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He is alive and now he's seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven giving us the spirit to bring us the gifts of repentance and salvation faith

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Every other gift that he wants to bestow on us and is doing so to the glory of Christ and the

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Father in heaven So yeah, I think you're exactly right. Yeah and even though the chapter 15 is a

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Chapter of the gospel. Like you said, this is a huge argument on the resurrection

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Yeah, and so it seems like you know, we've learned in the past that there were

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There was a side of the was it this was it the Sadducees that didn't believe in the resurrection but so you also it seems like there continues to be a section within the church or within the first century people that still didn't believe in the resurrection so Paul has this large argument here for the resurrection and Just to share with you what

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What John MacArthur says on this passage, which is very very close to what you were saying

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Is that it's proving the resurrection because it's it's a universal It's a universal understanding it's which is

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I Don't I don't guess we should argue like that, but I'm not gonna I'm not gonna criticize

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Paul and the Holy Spirit's inspiration right But That's kind of how

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MacArthur takes it you we do know that Paul used sarcasm I probably and then he uses this strong language like you were talking about And how he speaks to them because they're misconceptions but MacArthur understands this to be

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Looking Paul looking at their neighbors. Look even the pagans

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Understand that there's resurrection from the dead and they have this practice of baptizing for the dead.

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So it's so You think about nature nature's law

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Creation's law. We know there's a certain order to things and that and so that therefore

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The resurrection of the dead would fall under that type of logic It's just the natural order of things

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We understand that there's gonna be everybody understands there's gonna be a resurrection from the dead That's why they they have this practice of baptizing for the dead.

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So You know that I think that's just part of Paul's argument here.

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Yeah. Why do you think abortions? Okay, even even Even Democrats will sorry if even certain folks will will say there's a double homicide if you kill a pregnant woman, right?

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He's not advocating for the killing of pregnant women or or even making a point on On on trying people who who have killed a pregnant woman is making a point

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You know, you're making a point in that argument that there's a life there that's being extinguished and it shouldn't be okay in one situation

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And not in the other, right? Well, let's move on and see we get through some of these other questions

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So the I want to finish going through the questions from Big John because he was kind enough to listen and offer some questions to Look at so let's look at some of the other questions that he gave.

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So here's here's one of his other ones Do you believe that the

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Holy Ghost is the person of the train that causes us to be able to understand scripture and he requests references

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So I would say yes Yes also Say yes, also

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So we know we know the part we learn from scripture that apart from Christ we can do nothing And Christ also tells us that he must have sin so that we can receive the

33:45

Holy Spirit Who's gonna be our helper? Yeah, and then what does he help us do and Then you take us

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You were talking about John chapter Yeah, John chapter 16. Yeah starting in verse 13

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When the spirit of truth comes he will guide you into all truth for he will not speak on his own authority

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But whatever he hears he will speak he will declare to you the things that are to come

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He will glorify me for he will take what is mine and declare it to you all that the father has is mine

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Therefore I said he will take what is mine and declare it to you So the Holy Spirit is the one who is going to lead us into all truth

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This is the same Jesus here is talking to his disciples of the apostles

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And telling them these things that the spirit of truth is coming is going to guide you into all truth and then he very

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Quickly just the next page depending on you know, what's your the font in your

34:48

Bible? He turns his eyes from speaking to his apostles he starts praying in this

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It's the high priestly prayer where he prays, you know all sorts of stuff But mainly is praying for his

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Disciples who are going to be left in the world that they would know God that God would take care of them that they would glorify the

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Lord that You they'd be preserved in the world and the word and in the world and It's it's

35:26

So Interesting that he tells them that one of the ways he's going to do that is by Sending the

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Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth So the Holy Spirit being the one who who led the

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Apostles to write the scriptures and you know Even Paul saying all scripture is given by inspiration of God as possible for doctrine for reproof for correction instruction and righteousness

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That was brought about by The Spirit who led them into all truth

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So if the Spirit is leading the church in the truth, he's also the one who gives us the understanding of Scripture He's the one who inspired it.

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He's the one who teaches us He's one who leads us to Christ and shows us the things of the

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Father which were given to the Son Which is everything that says here in this passage Yeah, and that companion passages you were talking about in John chapter 17 is is verse 17 sanctified them in the truth

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Your word is true, right? So the Holy Spirit is leading us in all truth sanctify also sanctifying us in the truth and you know

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Jesus says that it's his word. That is true Which we know is scripture.

36:39

Yep. All right The next question, um

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Does like and I think we touched on this one Earlier does the lack of personal experience with signed gifts mold any of your personal worldview?

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We say unfortunately, yes but experience always always

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It always has some sort of an effect on The way that you interpret things now, we do take steps to try to minimize that but it always does

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But but here's the thing the same question can be asked the other way around That's right.

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Does the experience of the continuationist in seeing those things in their church? Does that mold and form their understanding of of things and the answer is obviously yes, because Everyone is molded to some extent by their by their own

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Experience but that's that's That's kind of that's kind of the the point

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I don't know if the points the thing but that's the real Issue is that your experience as a continuationist will

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Inform your position mine as a cessationist won't form my position But which experience do we trust and the answer is none of them because the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked we live by faith and not by sight and also experience can be

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Misinterpreted, you know, how do I know that Mike's that my experience? Conforms with reality

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How do I know that that I experienced this that this? Feeling this understanding this this way of living growing up.

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This is my experience How do I know that that what is real is?

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Actually what I experienced how do I know I didn't misconstrue the situation or Misunderstand the experience that I was having you know, maybe

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And people want to say well, you can't misunderstand the experience I mean, obviously your experience is just what you perceive so you can perceive things wrongly

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It happens all the time Like this this morning

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I woke up I went went to the

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Restroom and For whatever reason it sounded like the bottom fell out of the whole world.

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I think just it started Let me let me finish my let me finish my sentence keep it clean because it was raining outside Anyway so Because it was raining really hard I mean just like out of nowhere just started raining really hard and then

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I saw a large flash of light and then the whole House shook. I mean it must have the lightning must have struck maybe

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I mean, it was like instant light. Wham. I'm surprised nobody in the house woke up.

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It scared me I jumped But to me it sounded like an explosion my experience was hey,

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I Think just just exploded outside and I don't know what's going on Now my experience was obviously

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I Was able to figure it out, you know when cooler heads prevailed and I wasn't shaking in my little my little pajamas anymore

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But I could figure it out but our experience doesn't necessarily determine reality reality

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I had a professor one time that said reality exists apart from my knowledge of it or my ability to comprehend it so Just because I have an experience one way or the other doesn't necessarily mean

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That that bolsters or hinders my case for something. It's just an experience

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Yeah And I would really commend Big John on this question because this is not just a question from a continuationist

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Big John to Cessationist Robin Dan. This is a question for every

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Christian as you examine your Examine your life because if you reflect any at all on If you have any age on you and you reflect any at all on your past on your traditions how you grew up You know if you well in any setting but let's just take growing up in church, for example

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Where does your eschatol where did my eschatology come from, you know, I had no clue what pre -tribulation rapture dispensational

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Amillennial post -millennial I Had no idea what that terminology was didn't know existed didn't know what it meant

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All I knew was that there was gonna be I know who John Hagee was and I knew that there was gonna be a rapture

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And cows and some red cows and the tribulation was gonna be here but the church

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God doesn't allow his people to go through tribulation or something. And and so that's why there's gonna be a rapture will be taken out

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That was my eschatology. And so that was my tradition. That was my experience So that's what

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I held on to and so we that can go for any doctor So we need we need to all step back as individual

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Christians and say let me look and compare What my experience what I was taught what my tradition was and compare it with Scripture and so that's a good question from big

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John does my experience affect my view my doctrine my understanding of Theology.

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Yeah. Well, I mean, it's not just for the Christian I mean think about what we're having going on in the church and outside of the church now

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Got a big movement for deconstructing our faith and a lot of that comes from a place of deep church hurt

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Now some of that is just well, they told me my sin was sin and I didn't like it but some of it is from a place where there was some some pastors who maybe shouldn't have been pastors who who led their church in such a way where they were they were ruthless and and And Let's face it church culture in the 90s was was hit -or -miss

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I mean you had some people saying some pretty pretty incredibly terrible stuff back then And if that was your experience growing up and all you knew

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Was this sort of spiritual abuse that was taking place? It was going to cut it's gonna color the way that you view all of Christianity You're gonna think

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Christianity is nothing but a cult of control and they say one thing and mean another there are a whole bunch of Hypocrites and maybe that was your experience at the church that you were at Yeah, but your experience doesn't determine the reality of Christ.

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It doesn't determine know that Christ died for sins Went to the grave that he rose up again three days later

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It doesn't determine those things those things those things exist no matter what your experience of that church was and You hear that that kind of stuff coming from the deconstruction movement or I don't feel like I like organized religion anymore but I'll just stay at home because The church has hurt me and I'm not saying that it didn't

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But your experience at a church that hurts you doesn't determine the truth or reality Of the world that you live in it definitely doesn't change the gospel of Jesus Christ to save sinners.

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Yeah And this question is is a question that even those people who have a very high view of Scripture Who are expository who go verse study verse by verse teach verse by verse preach verse by verse

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We still have a temptation to read interpret into a passage a

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Certain doctrine and so this question is good to have on in the back of our mind

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So that even though we are we are that person with a high view of Scripture We're not reading into a certain doctrine of post meal doctrine a cessationist doctrine as continuationist doctor whatever the doctor may be we want the text to tell us what

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God wants us to know but I think with that being said, you know, that's just a We're just agreeing with you on the question

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We we hold to that question. We use that question to evaluate ourselves

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But I think where that question comes from because I've heard it asked from from other people Because you you are in or you were raised in a church where the gifts were

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We're not normative where we're taught against because that is your background.

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Do you think that background? Influences your where you are today in your understanding of the spiritual gifts and so we said all that Preamble to say yes that could influence somebody but that we want to be biblical and what our aim is to Believe in cessationism because we get it from Scripture not from our experiences and as Dan said

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The same question could be asked from a continuationist do you believe that the sign gifts or the the spiritual gifts continue today because you were in an environment where They were pushed to be present.

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They were taught that they are present. Whatever the case may be Could your experiences

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About the gifts influence your continuation. So I would say they probably answer