April 14, 2020 Show with Dr. Curt Daniel on “The History & Theology of Calvinism” (Part 2)

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Chris Arnzen Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron Radio .com

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this is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 14th day of April 2020 and I'm thrilled to be having part two of a discussion that we began two weeks ago on Thursday the 2nd of April to be more precise we had part one of this discussion then and we are now entering into part two of Our discussion on the history and theology of Calvinism Which is a monumental 900 page

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New hardback by evangelical press written by my guest today. Dr. Kurt Daniel and Dr.

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Kurt Daniel is pastor senior pastor of The Faith Bible Church in Springfield, Illinois.

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He is a graduate of Central Bible College Where he received his Bachelor of Arts Fuller Theological Seminary where he received his

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Master of Divinity and the University of Edinburgh Where he received his doctorate his PhD He is currently writing books on the deity of Christ the extent of the atonement hyper -Calvinism

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Jonathan Edwards Biblical apologetics and a large history of reform theology and I want to interview him on each and every one of those books because he's already proven himself to be a fascinating and edifying and educational and superb guest and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back for part two of The history and theology of Calvinism.

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Dr. Kurt Daniel Thank you Chris good to be back and I want to give our listeners our email address right now it's

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Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

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and Please as always give us your first name at least Your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter let's say you disagree with your pastor on this subject and you don't want to draw attention to yourself or you are a pastor yourself and you don't want to Draw attention to your identity because you disagree with your own elders or perhaps the denomination where you pastor there's all kinds of reasons that would lend themselves to Want to remain anonymous, but please if it's just a general question on theology and doctrine and history

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Please at least give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence when you write us

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Well before we go into our discussion on part two of the history and theology of Calvinism Tell our listeners who did not hear your first interview about Faith Bible Church of Springfield, Illinois Thank you

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Chris, I've been here for 25 years the church is about 65 or so years old.

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We're a totally independent reform Baptist Church Evangelical and It's my privilege to serve there.

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We're live -streaming our sermons Be it via Facebook during this national crisis and the website is faith

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Bible online net faith Bible online net and I hope

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To remember to repeat that information later on Well of for those of you who are listening who want to have an idea more in -depth understanding of the subject

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That we are discussing today. I would urge you after this live broadcast is over To go to the archive at iron sharpens iron radio .com.

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That's past shows podcast click on that and Type in the search engine

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Kurt Daniel and that is see you RT Daniel and that interview will come up and you could listen for part one where we get involved in the theology of This discussion and not to say that we are not going to continue on theological aspects today

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But you in case you are wondering what you you've missed When you hear our discussion today that will be found in part one of the history and theology of Calvinism interview that we conducted on Thursday the 2nd of April, but if perhaps it would be wise of us to at least

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Do a recap on a summary if you could for those of our listeners who

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Still do not understand Calvinism and you know, I do and I do even though the bulk of my listeners

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I'm sure are Calvinist. I do have listeners that are new Christians and some who are not even

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Christians at all some who are Muslims and members of cults and We have

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Roman Catholic listeners and others. So why don't you in summary form, which

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I know it's very hard to do Explain what Calvinism is and perhaps even

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Contrast it with hyper Calvinism as briefly as you can Okay, see how

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I can do that. First off. It is a theology based in the Bible Often associated with the name

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John Calvin, but the distinctive doctrines of Calvinism preceded him

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And of course followed him This theology is Christian not non -christian is

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Protestant not Roman Catholic It's evangelical not liberal Traceable back to the branch of the

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Reformation coming from Switzerland not Lutherans in Germany not the Anabaptists and It's progressed.

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It's been a mainline view in various denominations Originally most of the Baptists believed in it certainly the

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Dutch were formed Presbyterians even many of the Episcopalian or Anglican have believed in this plus the

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Congregationalist now that was generally in the past there are a few today The varieties of Calvinism that I trace in my book is the mainstream view that I hold to and then on the right

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I guess you could say right -wing Calvinism Would be hyper Calvinism That does not believe in the free offer of the gospel

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Says that God does not desire the salvation of anybody but the elect

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They usually say there's no common grace no common love for everybody only the elect

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And on the other side of the road would be a very low Calvinism Sometimes called

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Amaraldism that usually teaches for a point Calvinism in other words it does not believe in limited atonement the various other varieties differences on the sacraments church government eschatology

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Usually theologians and historians say that The main distinctives of Calvinism has to do with the sovereignty of God The fact that God has foreordained everything that ever comes to pass

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Then also the so -called five points of Calvinism sometimes called the doctrines of grace

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Those would be total depravity unconditional election limited atonement

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Irresistible grace and the perseverance of the Saints now There's a little bit of variety within those

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But those are generally considered at least in the popular mind the distinctives of Calvinism.

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How's that for a summary Chris? that's very good and Let me ask you a question about something that you listed among those things

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You spoke of Hyper -Calvinists being those

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That object to a notion that God in any way desires

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The salvation of those outside of the number of his elect that he has chosen before the foundation of the world now one thing about that that Can be difficult for me to understand is

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We may have a Wrong understanding and I'm sure you would think this is a wrong understanding of that That God like many of those outside of reformed theology have a false notion a diminished notion of God That he is in heaven filled with anxiety

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Wringing his hands pacing back and forth Wanting every single human to come to him and be saved with with an equal passion and an equal desire and he is really going to be eternally frustrated and disappointed because in reality

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That Hope of his is going to fail miserably in the end because as you and I believe although there will be

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More elect in heaven than the stars that are in the heavens And the grains of sand and so forth, but at the same time we will still be a minority

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In contrast to the population of the earth since Eden and 6 ,000 years ago, so So, how would you explain this without giving an idea that God?

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is going to Be eternally frustrated and and disappointed and even dare

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I say that Christ's mission on the cross If if indeed and I know you don't believe he intended to save Every individual that has ever lived and whoever will live but those outside our communion do believe that that that Work on the cross was actually in many ways a horrible failure

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Well, the Bible Addresses all this getting back to the very nature of God God is sovereign.

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He doesn't have weaknesses and he certainly won't spend eternity Weeping and sadness because some people don't believe we have to balance two things about God that are both

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Explicitly taught repeatedly in the scriptures number one that God for ordained Everything that comes to pass.

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There's no coincidences. God is predestined Everything and it will come to pass.

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We would call that his purpose or his intention Also, the Bible teaches that there's the revealed will of God where God Commands people to obey him, but they usually disobey him.

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That's a different than Predestination God in this sense desires everybody that hears the gospel to be saved to believe in Jesus So it's a mystery the mystery hasn't been explained in Scripture how

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God can choose only some and intend that they would be saved and Also that he desires

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Others to be saved as they hear the gospel Both of them were true because they're both repeatedly taught for example in one verse

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Jesus said many are called But few are chosen many are called that's really revealed

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Desire of God, but only a few are chosen We have to keep them in balance and what

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God has put together. Let no man put asunder rejecting the free offer of the gospel or God's desire for all people impinges on The general love that God has for all people which is taught repeatedly

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In Scripture that God has a love for all people as his creatures even though they're sinners once we

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Modify that That's going to impinge on our evangelism our prayers for the lost

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Even our love for the lost we need to be like Jesus who? Wept for the lost as he looked over Jerusalem as he stretched out his arms for them

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We need to be like Jesus when he be like the Apostle Paul Romans 8 and 9 he clearly taught

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God Predestined only some to be saved chapter 9 also that he passed over others but then in chapter 10 verse 1 he says his heart's desire and Prayer for Israel is that they would be saved and elsewhere.

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We see that even with tears He prayed for them and pled with lost sinners.

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I think that's a good example for us Chris and Would you say that?

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Christ's death which you agree With historic

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Calvinism Was salvific Lee only intended for the elect

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Would you would you believe that the the death the atoning death? the act of redemption on Calvary's cross that Christ perfectly accomplished had benefits

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For those outside of the elect that are not directly involving salvation and if you could explain some of those benefits and blessings

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That the non -elect receives from this death because sometimes we may look at the death of Christ and solely and only look at it as a

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Work of redeeming his people from their sins, but if you could explain a little bit further

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Okay, we usually use this formula the death of Christ is sufficient for all

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But it's efficient only for the elect. Let's look at the first one sufficient

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It's sufficient for everybody Martin Luther said it's sufficient if God has elected

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Thousands of worlds, but he hasn't he's only created this world, but it would be sufficient for an infinite number

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Why because the life the body and the blood of Christ have infinite value first Peter one

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Talks about the precious blood of Christ precious means valuable because Jesus is

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God it has infinite value It's also intended primarily for the elect not exclusively

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There are some non -salvation benefits for all people usually would say the blessings of common grace flow through the cross to all people a

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Delay of judgment, for example, the fact that we're not in hell is a mercy The fact that we are healthy we can enjoy music beauty delicious food

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The free offer of the gospel all of these are general benefits that all come through the cross

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They do not guarantee salvation But they point toward salvation as it were they say these are enticements

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Why a person should believe in the Lord Jesus, so I agree with that formula that it's

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Infinite value and so much flows from it, but there's a primary purpose in the atonement that guarantees salvation for the elect

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Well, one of the things that I wanted to have you do today is cut through the fiction the myths and legends and even the slanders of John Calvin That are perpetuated even to this day

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It seems that those who are outside of the doctrines of grace the vast majority

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Even in the apologetic world those who are involved in writing books and speaking at conferences and Having videos filmed and and All kinds of things to promote their agenda even if they're highly educated very often these people and I'm not saying all of them, but very often they have never really read or studied

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John Calvin himself They've never read the Institutes of Religion They've never read the

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Puritans. They've never fully read Charles Sadden Spurgeon They only read of him selectively when he is speaking things that ring true to their own preconceived understanding of theology and They they only really study

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Calvinism from the writings and the videos and the conferences of their of Calvinism's enemies and They perpetuate the caricatures and the slanders that have been developed now you and I know that he was far from a perfect individual and We both agree

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That it was wrong for him to consent To the execution of Michael Servetus Miguel Servito.

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He's also called and that even though Servetus was certainly a heretic

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Who in some senses was? Asking for it as they say because he kept returning to Geneva even though he was warned

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To declare his heresies and even to declare that John Calvin was a heretic and his chief

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Goals were to Have people in Geneva repent of their view of Infant baptism, which you and I do reject also being

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Baptist, but perhaps more primarily his rejection of the Trinity was primarily in mind

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In the Geneva authorities when they when they executed him against Calvin's will

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By burning him alive, but if you could Let's start with the

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John Calvin Executed Michael Servetus. He did no such thing. Am I correct?

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That's correct. That's usually the case that's thrown up in this debate

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And it's illegitimate argument. It would not pass a

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University class on logic or debate for two reasons number one. It's an ad hominem argument

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That would be like in a presidential debate Where one candidate dismissed the other one by saying well, you're ugly and you're stupid

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In other words, you're arguing against the person not the facts people are arguing against.

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Let's say predestination By pointing out some personal weakness and talent.

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That's illegitimate. The second one is similar It's the guilt by association

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In other words, they'll say well Calvin believed XYZ that is wrong

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Therefore he is also wrong on ABC if that was the case You'd have to say well, we don't believe in the

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Trinity Well Calvin believed in it Calvin was wrong on Servetus. Therefore. We should not believe in the

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Trinity That's a very poor argument By the way, Jehovah's Witnesses and others use that so we cannot dismiss what

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Calvin taught Because of his life and involvement in the Servetus incident because you can find weaknesses in all

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Christians all preachers theologians and you we wouldn't want anyone to use that kind of argument against us

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Okay, Servetus was a heretic that had already been condemned by the

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Roman Catholic Inquisition he traveled countries different countries in Europe to try to find a safe haven

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Thing is virtually all the countries would have Had him arrested or put on trial.

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There was virtually no freedom of religion anywhere Switzerland was more open than many of the other ones were

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So Calvin and the City Council warned Servetus don't come to Geneva Switzerland or you will be dealt with as an unwelcome guest

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He came anyway, and he was recognized. He was arrested put on trial for heresy and Part of the charge was that the

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Bible says those that are guilty of blasphemy should be executed Calvin was not the judge jury or executioner

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Unfortunately, some people think he was like the dictator of Geneva. He never held political office there

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He was simply a witness for the prosecution When Servetus was condemned to be burnt at the stake

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Calvin says how about a more merciful execution of beheading? And he was in fact burnt at the stake contrary to Calvin's Desires now very few people today even amongst

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Calvinist would approve of the execution Would want to throw it back to people and say now what should have been done should have nothing had been done

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Then the peace of Geneva would have been disturbed That would be like a guest coming into your house in teaching your children things directly contrary to what you teach them

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So what should have been done some say? Well, he should have been in prison He should have been sent back to Spain.

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My opinion is that he should simply should have been Ushered to the borders of Geneva and say you're not welcome here

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Just like we would do to a guest in our own Home that gets drunk and starts beating up on the family dog would say you're not welcome here

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That's a summary But you can't use that incident to dismiss what Calvin taught on other things

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Any more than you can dismiss the teaching of the Trinity by using an ad hominem argument

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And from what I understand in that regard to that to the execution of Servetus the main

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Flaw with Calvin is that he did not protest the execution itself.

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He consented to it He agreed he agreed with it. He only protested the manner with which

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Servetus was executed. Yes It gets back to the relationship of church and state back then and this was universally acknowledged all around the

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Around Europe and any countries that claim to be Christian is that you cannot have total freedom of religion and Politics they have to be united To safeguard the the peace of this society now in subsequent generations

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Not just non -Calvinist, but Calvinist came to see the situation was not handled properly

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We also had this Chris It's easy for people with very little knowledge of the actual situation

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To act like a Monday morning quarterback and judge it without Realizing what we call the sitz in laban the situation in life and to say now

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What would you have done back then knowing only what they knew then not what you know today?

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Most people haven't thought it through like that. Nevertheless. It was an unfortunate incident

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Disagree with the execution of surveyors, and I don't know anybody that defends it today now

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How many people are you aware of How many heretics

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Were executed in Geneva when Calvin was there? I haven't looked into that, but there were some others that were

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Prosecuted neither exiled or punished for one reason or another Surveyors wasn't the only person that Calvin locked horns with there was

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Sebastian Castello and several other ones But I'm not an authority on that.

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So I better not comment beyond my knowledge That would be a good example for others to follow

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Yeah, one of the reasons of your knowledge, right? One of the reasons I brought it up is that people beyond their knowledge have accused him of being involved in rampant executions

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You know that there were many many many executions and so on and I had never heard of Actually any but cervidus, but but as you just pointed out there was at least one other or several other

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But again, you cannot dismiss him or his teaching simply because of that You have a long catalog of the weakness of so many famous preachers over the century

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Right would be an ad homin argument. That's an illegitimate charge and and the religious world in general all over the globe at that time were

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Executing its theological enemies unfortunately and tragically well various ways and it wasn't just the

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Catholic Inquisition You go to various other countries even the

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Netherlands many of the Anabaptists were burnt at the stake there and In Zurich, Switzerland, many of the

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Anabaptists were drowned and not just by the

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Roman Catholic Inquisition you see the fits the labor men was it hadn't fully developed to see how we can legitimately and biblically deal with others that we disagree with That was something that was gradually developing and partly due to the

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Reformation Because most of the persecution was by the Catholic Church, right?

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And of course even the Anabaptists, although they were typically not involved in Executing anyone such as heretics.

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They are not guiltless when it comes to a Desire for violence among some of them because there were some who

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Wanted to overthrow the the German government through violence. Am I right? Well, most of the

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Anabaptists were pacifists just like say Mennonites and Amish today

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Right rec descendants of the Anabaptists one group that you're referring to was up in Germany in Munster and they had some

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Strange eschatological views of bringing in the kingdom of God on earth by violence and establishing a new

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Theocracy that was in Lutheran territory and it was severely put down and many people were executed yes, and that's another thing that we should be reminded of is that the

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Anabaptist that word alls it means is rebaptize or those that rebaptize and it is a

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Wide spectrum of folks that should not be broad -brushed That's right, and we have to go to our first break

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In fact, I'm going to read you a question From one of our listeners before we go to the break and you could answer it when we return from the break

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I usually only give the first name of an individual who writes in in their city and state of residence but since this is someone who

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Operates a parachurch ministry who I know personally and I've interviewed him. I'll give you his full name

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Phil Sessa Who is the founder of soul fishing ministries and then it's soul fishing is one word soul -fishing ministries in Queens, New York and He asks he asked a few questions, but I'll start with the first before the break and He wants to know what is the difference between The revealed will of God and the decreed will of God and Some have called what

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Phil is calling the revealed will of God the prescribed Will of God and the decree of God and if you could

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Answer that when we come back from the break If anybody else wants to join us the emails Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

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Chris Arnzen at gmail .com don't go away We'll be right back with Kurt Daniel and more on the history and theology of Calvinism right after these messages

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Well join us each Friday on the program Iron Sharpens Iron with your host

39:46

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40:01

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42:12

We are now back with our guest. Dr. Kurt Daniel and Kurt Daniel is the pastor the senior pastor of Faith Bible Church of Springfield, Illinois, and we are discussing a part two of the history and theology of Calvinism We began this discussion

42:34

Two weeks ago on Thursday the 2nd of April and this is part two of the discussion And if you have a question, our email address is

42:42

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Phil Sessa the

42:48

Founder of soul fishing ministries Wanted you to explain the difference between the revealed will of God and the decree of God And as I mentioned earlier,

43:00

I have also heard the revealed will of God Described as the prescribed will of God Okay, see if I can answer

43:10

Phil's concerns the Bible teaches both of these now Ultimately, there's only one will in God not to not him but as John Calvin said

43:22

God condescends to our ignorance by Describing it in two different ways

43:29

One of them we call the decree of God predestination purpose plan

43:36

These are the terms that the Bible uses for this secret will of God It's secret only in so far as we don't know all the details until they're revealed of in Providence The other part of the revealed will

43:53

The will of God is his revealed will we often point to Deuteronomy 29 29

44:00

The secret things belong to the Lord our God Those that are revealed belong to us and our children that we may do all the words of this law

44:09

So there's your your balance we have to keep them in balance Because it's easy to throw out one because you hold to the other

44:19

Armenians, for example, usually hold to the revealed will of God and dismiss or ignore the secret will of God Hyper -Calvinist tend to do the other way around That would be like saying well, we don't believe

44:32

Jesus is both God and man We know he's man, so we don't believe he's God the

44:37

Bible teaches He's both of them. So the same thing with the Revealed and secret will of God probably better to call it the two -fold will of God.

44:48

They're both taught in the Bible secret will of God would be his Absolute sovereign decree.

44:54

It always comes to pass. It's pre -programmed like a Computer it always happens on the other hand the reveal will of God doesn't always come to pass

45:07

It's his law, for example people usually break it it includes his gospel

45:12

People usually don't believe the gospel. So those are some of the differences

45:18

Ephesians 1 teaches us that God is for ordained everything that comes to pass

45:25

Romans 11 36 for from him to him to him are all things.

45:31

That's his secret will What if his revealed will that would be not his intention, but his desire

45:38

He desires that we obey him. He desires that we believe the gospel and believe in Jesus is

45:48

Lies summed up in Exodus 20 and his gospel is summed up from 1st. Corinthians 15 3 and 4

45:55

So miss you how they're both true and the final answer hasn't been revealed to us, but this is enough

46:01

For us to go on for example, his revealed will the first Thessalonians says this is the will of God your

46:10

Sanctification. It's also his will that we believe in the Lord Jesus that we live holy lives

46:16

These are clearly taught in the Bible now hard case arises What about the question of sin on the one hand his

46:24

God for ordained the existence of sin? Yes, as I said in the previous broadcast

46:30

God for ordained the worst sin in history The murder of Jesus Christ our

46:37

Lord if he is before ordained the worst Then there's no dispute about the lesser and all other sins

46:45

Clearly the Bible says he for ordained the cross acts 2 acts 4 first Peter chapter 1 and other verses on the other hand.

46:55

That was definitely a sin It was not God's revealed will that his son be murdered

47:02

So you see you go back and forth between the two of them and you keep them in balance

47:09

Right well for a short answer Well in some sense it was revealed that he'd be murdered because it was prophesied in the

47:17

Old Testament but it wasn't it wasn't taught as Something that was a good and wonderful and obedient thing to do

47:27

Commandment is not thou shalt murder the Messiah We're clearly wrong.

47:33

Judas was wrong It had been for a day in the Judas betrayed Jesus But Judas was certainly guilty look up Luke 22 22 on that We have to keep both of these in balance.

47:46

We can't use one as an excuse to ignore the other Yeah, another example of this duality

47:56

Is in 2nd Samuel, I believe it's chapter 13 when Nathan the

48:02

Prophet Approaches David after his wicked acts of adultery and murder having committed adultery with Bathsheba and having murdered her husband

48:13

Uriah the Hittite to cover it up and After he gives his little story about the lamb being murdered and cooked and eaten he he tells

48:26

David that he is the one that has done this and when he is declaring the things that God will do as a form of chastisement to David He includes in there that he will rise up evil in his house and also that his wives

48:45

Will sleep with his neighbor in the sight of all of Israel, which obviously is adultery both of those things

48:54

The the rising up of evil and committing of adultery are

48:59

Wicked acts damnable acts that God commands us not to do and yet he decreed that they would happen

49:08

We can never use One as an excuse for the breaking the other for example if someone said well

49:16

I send like David But God foreordained it to that person.

49:23

I would issue this rebuke Yes, and God also foreordained that he would punish you for being responsible for sin.

49:30

There's never an excuse for sin That's right. We have to deal with this whole question in a very humble way

49:38

Never charging God with anything malicious or wrong We must say like David.

49:46

I am the man I have and by the way, I was one chapter off Apologize I have referred to this passage many many times and I'm shocked that I said a second

49:57

Samuel 13 It's second Samuel 12. I apologize there But Phil has

50:06

Another question one of them you already addressed Another one,

50:13

I'm not sure you want to go on this rabbit trail because it's a huge subject But he was one he wanted to know if you could explain the difference between Molinism and Calvinism.

50:22

I don't know if you would like to give a very Brief summary of the differences or not because it's a really huge issue

50:32

Briefly Molinism takes its name from Luis de Molina a Spanish Jesuit at the end of the 16th century

50:43

He was a Roman Catholic and he came up with an idea that had to that in the Middle Ages But he was the one that Developed it wrote a book on it and people are discussing it and believing it today

50:55

It's saying that God foreordains things by seeing What people would have done under certain?

51:04

circumstances and that this somehow Modifies the view of Luther and Calvin and even

51:10

Thomas Aquinas that God has foreordained everything God chose Just some people with a

51:17

Calvinist who rejected that and only I think only one Calvinist today tries to have a

51:22

Calvinist view of this that theory is called middle knowledge Believe it or not.

51:28

It actually opens the door to this open theism idea That says

51:34

God does not know everything God does not know the future No We would say God certainly knows everything past present and future

51:42

Because God is foreordained everything and God doesn't foreordain on the basis of what he sees is going to happen

51:50

Anyway, let's get in the cart before the horse things happen. Anyway, because God foreordained it to happen that way and God is also foreordained that we would be responsible and accountable for our actions

52:09

Well, I'm sure that William Wayne Craig and the majority

52:14

If not, all Molinus would not agree that their theology leads to open theism, even though I agree with you

52:21

That it is a logical progression and in effect Molina's view and so many

52:32

Armenians have believed in that But I would also give them their credit many Armenians have been very strong opponents of open theism

52:41

That was a heresy floating around 20 years ago. It's pretty much run its course a few people still believe it today

52:48

Others however believe in middle knowledge of Molinus. Um, William Lane Craig is probably the most well -known popularized

52:59

Popularizer of it is also if I understand it basically in Armenian and not a

53:05

Calvinist this has other Implications about know if we need to get into those

53:10

Chris, right? and the consistency with Arminianism leading to open theism is revealed in the fact that Quite a number of open theists describe themselves as consistent

53:22

Armenians Hmm Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna allow

53:28

Phil to be a question glutton with one more question Because it's very apropos for what we're going on.

53:36

What's going on right now Can you explain Calvin's theology in light of the black plague and the sovereignty of God and how one would apply that?

53:44

theology presently to the coronavirus God foreordains Everything that's predestination and in time

53:54

God governs all things we call that Providence Bible says of him and through him are all things and that even includes disasters plagues

54:07

Disease or what we would generally call bad things that happen in our life God uses even those one of the

54:14

Puritans said God can use their crooked stick to draw a straight line God can bring good out of evil or if Augustine said he would not have foreordained

54:24

These bad things if he could not bring good out of them Romans 8 28 God causes all things to work together for good for those that love

54:33

God and are called according to his purpose God has ultimate purposes even through this coronavirus

54:40

One of them is that it might bring some people to seek salvation in Christ if they are on a deathbed afraid to die

54:48

All things like this should be a wake -up call to people Repent prepare to meet your

54:54

God believe in Christ and in that sense It's a good thing if it moves you toward God Amen, and thanks a lot

55:06

Phil Please make sure we have your full mailing address because you have won a free copy of the book the history and theology of Calvinism compliments of our friends at Evangelical Press and also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CVBBS .com

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who will actually be mailing that out to you and no cost to you or to our interprets iron radio We are now going to our midway break.

55:30

It's the longer the normal break. Please be patient with us and Write down your questions for our guest.

55:36

Dr. Kurt Daniel at Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com and also write down the information provided by as many of our advertisers as You could write down because if you more frequently contact them and patronize them successfully

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01:10:34

Before I return to our guest kurt daniel on our discussion On the history and theology of calvinism.

01:10:42

This is part two Of a discussion that we began two weeks ago on thursday april 2nd

01:10:48

Uh, so if you're listening, this is not a rerun of that show Eventually, i'm sure there will both be reruns

01:10:56

But uh, this is a two -part interview Uh, who knows maybe even turn into three parts

01:11:02

Uh, but before we return to kurt just have some exciting announcements to make first of all

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Uh, as far as we know, we're still having the next free Spring iron sharpen's iron radio pastor's luncheon here in carlisle, pennsylvania at the bonjourno conference center

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Uh, the only reason that we would not be unless god has a different reason in mind Is that they continue a ban on public gatherings here in pennsylvania?

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uh, but uh by may 29th friday may 29th I am just being optimistic that the ban will be lifted and people are going to be trying to resume to their normal lives

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Albeit with precautions, uh about health safety And we hope that you can come to the cot the uh, the luncheon.

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01:15:51

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01:16:00

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01:16:09

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01:16:25

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01:16:45

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01:18:11

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01:18:21

So just keep those things in mind. And if you want if you have a question for our guest today Dr.

01:18:26

Kurt Daniel on his book the history and theology of calvinism. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:18:33

chrisarnson at gmail .com And as always give me your first name city and state and country of residence

01:18:39

And only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter Uh, we have eric

01:18:45

And i'm not sure how to pronounce this, but it looks like mayho met illinois

01:18:51

Muhammad illinois is I guess another option And uh, perhaps eric can let me know if either of those was right

01:18:58

Uh, and his question actually has a couple of them Uh, sometimes the accusation is made that calvinists do not care about spreading the message of the gospel.

01:19:09

For example calvinists opposed William carey in his desire to go to india as a missionary.

01:19:17

Is this true historically? What are some examples of calvinist evangelicals and missionaries?

01:19:24

Well, I think william carried it despite any calvinists that try to dissuade him He was a calvinist.

01:19:29

Was he not william carey? Yes, five points. Yeah, that's what I thought He was opposed by hyper -calvinists

01:19:37

Not by mainstream calvinists hyper -calvinists have always been the tiny minority but william carey and he was supported by Andrew for samuel pierce john rippen

01:19:51

And others that was what started the great missionary movement was not started by Lutherans episcopalians or armenians.

01:20:00

It was started by five -point calvinistic baptists And that that intent in turn spread throughout all

01:20:07

Evangelical churches so that gives a lie to the idea that calvinism somehow hinders missions or evangelism

01:20:16

The great awakening in this country was almost all done by Five -point calvinists such as jonathan edwards over in great britain at that same time george, whitfield five -point calvinist

01:20:30

Very evangelistic And then down to the present day john blanchard is preached all around the world five -point calvinist.

01:20:38

I could go on and on calvinism Encourages evangelism doesn't hinder it

01:20:46

And let's see, um Oh, he also asked what are some examples of calvinist evangelists and missionaries and it's interesting how often

01:20:57

My friends who are among the vehemently anti -calvinist King james only fundamentalists and not all of them are anti -calvinist.

01:21:05

Some of them are calvinist themselves, but they Certainly a minority I think But some of them uphold as heroes men that are actually were actually five -point calvinists, they're just not aware of it

01:21:17

Well, i'll give you a short list john elliott the first Missionary to the american indians was a calvinist came from england

01:21:25

David brainerd who was very close to jonathan edwards was also a missionary to the american indians in new england and pennsylvania and his diary

01:21:38

Was edited by edwards reprinted to in fact, I don't think it's ever been out of print

01:21:43

Next to the bible that book probably did more to encourage missionary activity

01:21:50

In the 19th century than any other book then you could mention admiral judson a well -known

01:21:57

Calvinistic baptist also was a famous missionary could go on down the line with missionaries evangelists

01:22:05

Evangelistic pastors such as charles spurgeon been recorded that rarely did he ever preach a sermon

01:22:12

Without at least one person becoming soundly converted

01:22:18

Wow And there is a book that I highly recommend of course in addition to the one we are discussing today the history and theology of calvinism

01:22:29

But uh, my friend, in fact, he's a mutual friend of my guest tom nettles Uh, he wrote a an excellent book on that very issue eric

01:22:39

Uh, and the book is called by his grace and for his glory uh, what a phenomenal book that is

01:22:48

Uh by his grace and for his glory by dr. Tom nettles And uh, if i'm not mistaken,

01:22:55

I believe i'm looking for the publisher, but you could also purchase that In fact,

01:23:00

I prefer you purchase it through cumberland valley bible book service since they are our sponsor And that's cvbbs .com

01:23:08

Cvbs .com. It was published by founders press the ministry of tom askell the southern baptist calvinistic ministry by his grace and for his glory

01:23:21

A historical theological and practical study of the doctrines of grace in baptist life

01:23:27

And I have given that to a number of anti -calvinist friends

01:23:32

Especially pastors who are convinced that their greatest heroes in baptist history

01:23:38

Were not calvinist and yet they were it's clearly documentable And isn't it interesting?

01:23:45

Uh, dr. Kurt that If someone reads a passionately evangelistic

01:23:52

Evangelistic Preacher the writings of a preacher from the past And a preacher who is pouring out his heart urging men

01:24:03

To repent and believe upon christ And urging them to do so today uh, you know with great

01:24:14

Passion and urgency they assume automatically. Oh that person was not a calvinist, but that that is

01:24:20

That is a erroneous conclusion to draw is it not That's correct The doctrines of grace certainly don't hinder me from preaching evangelistically um

01:24:31

If a person came to me and said will you calvinists don't do enough evangelism? If he was a pastor,

01:24:38

I'd said let's talk pastor to pastor you're an armenian I'm a calvinist. We both know that people in our churches don't evangelize

01:24:46

As much as they do the armenian pastor would say that's right I'm always trying to get my people to do more and I say the same thing here doctrines of grace are not a hindrance

01:24:56

It's it's an actually an incentive Yes, I believe it god guaranteed somebody out there is going to believe it he's predestined

01:25:06

Remember paul says I do all things for the sake of the elect that they may come to a saving knowledge of christ

01:25:13

Yes, it is believe it it is an incentive to persevere and not give up, uh in fact, um, it's a tragedy when we hear about missionaries who are given a a relatively brief time limit to Win souls for christ wherever they're sent

01:25:34

And if they're not if the mission boards are not satisfied with the numbers that make professions

01:25:41

They yank that person off the mission field and send them somewhere else Because they do not believe what you and I believe that god has a people

01:25:49

Who will definitely come from every tribe and tongue and people and nation? Well, I have a chapter in my book on calvinistic evangelism and people may want to read that the doctrines of grace

01:26:01

Sometimes called the five points of calvinism have very practical applications in our lives

01:26:07

I know some young calvinists like it because it's very heavy very deep and theological

01:26:13

Well, it does feed the head, but it should also warm the heart and move us to Obey more.

01:26:19

It certainly is a humbling teaching uh that god chose us and we are worse than we really think we are

01:26:26

On our best days the fact that god would choose us is very humbling should move us to love jesus more to worship god better Should chris it should produce in us

01:26:37

Not just a strong backbone, but a very tender heart we've heard the illustration that we should have a uh,

01:26:46

An iron hand and a velvet glove, but i'd also say we should have not only strong minds, but a very tender heart toward the lord jesus christ

01:26:58

Uh, just read anything that joel beachy has written or preached upon and he and he takes these doctrines and put it right

01:27:06

Into the heart And that's really where it is, you know, john calvin's personal motto was

01:27:13

It was a a coat of arms that showed a hand holding a heart and the motto was my heart oh lord,

01:27:21

I give you promptly and Sincerely that should be the motto of every calvinist as well a heartfelt desire

01:27:30

To love christ more. Amen Uh I am so happy to be surprised, uh by an email from a pastor who

01:27:40

I know very well in boone, north carolina Just to fill you in on something that I don't know if you're aware of dr.

01:27:49

Daniel, but uh, very sadly uh about a decade ago, uh,

01:27:55

I backslid into the sin of alcoholism And went to I admitted myself into a christian

01:28:06

Rehabilitation ministry in boone, north carolina called hebron colony ministries and I never

01:28:14

Shy away from singing the praises of this ministry. I have not had the desire to have one drop of alcohol since departing that place

01:28:23

Uh and hebroncolony .org for you who are listening who may know somebody

01:28:29

Who needs a ministry like that and they also have a sister ministry for women in seti, south carolina but the only pastor

01:28:42

That used to visit me frequently while at hebron colony is the man who is writing in right now

01:28:48

And I can't even tell you How much of a blessing he was to me while there

01:28:54

Uh, especially to my sanity But having a reformed pastor visiting me

01:29:01

Uh quite frequently to pray with me and to just fellowship with me was a delight beyond description

01:29:07

While I was going through that trial, but his name is dr. Lawrence c young And he's the pastor of brook brookside presbyterian church

01:29:17

Which is an associate reformed presbyterian Church arp as the denomination is called

01:29:24

Uh, and that is in boone North carolina right near hebron colony and he he asks how did spurgeon and other calvinists know and he

01:29:36

Puts the word no in all capitals Who was converted? And he includes also whitfield question mark

01:29:44

Uh, did any of them ever claim that they knew for certain who was converted? Well, that raises an interesting question about assurance

01:29:53

Back up. How can we know we are converted? Well, the bible gives us several Marks to look for specifically in first john

01:30:03

We we have the fruit that shows it we have fruit. Therefore. We have the root We believe the true gospel.

01:30:10

We have the internal testimony of the holy spirit You can know that you were saved

01:30:15

And from that you can also know you were elected to be saved second peter 1 10

01:30:23

Brethren, give all diligence to make your calling an election. Sure We can know we were elected and that's very humbling and heartwarming

01:30:33

But then we can project that into the future with the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints If we have been chosen to be saved, we know that we're saved

01:30:41

We know we will always be saved and make it to eternity in heaven

01:30:47

Then the next question is can we know if someone else is saved? Well, we're not infallible We can't see inside their heart.

01:30:54

We can judge the fruit the profession of faith consistencies of a loving gratitude life for christ

01:31:01

It is very important For example for a pastor when he interviews someone that wants to join the church or to be baptized or to be married

01:31:09

Certainly is helpful in counseling But if there are other factors, for example christians can only marry other christians

01:31:18

How can we tell if that other person is a christian? If you're a christian man, how do you tell if this young lady is a christian woman various factors?

01:31:28

And I think that calvinism gives us certain guidelines on this. We don't just jump for an easy profession

01:31:35

We want to be biblically cautious But also generous realizing no christian is perfect, but there are certain marks to be looked for This is generally how calvinistic pastors have handled the question

01:31:49

Well, thank you so much pastor larry and you have also won

01:31:55

A free copy of the history and theology of calvinism by our guest kurt daniel compliments of evangelical press

01:32:04

And also compliments of cv bbs .com who will be shipping that book out to you

01:32:10

And let me give a plug to this fine church The brookside presbyterian church in boone, north carolina

01:32:20

That's boone brookside church .org Boone brookside church .org

01:32:27

and boone is spelt b o o n e Just like daniel boone

01:32:33

Boone brookside church .org Thank you so much brother and hopefully at some point in the future

01:32:39

I'll be down paying a visit to hebron colony and I will look you up And hopefully have a time fellowship with you and thank you again for all you did for me while spending time in boone north carolina at hebron colony ministries

01:32:56

We have to go to our final break right now. It's going to be a lot briefer a lot more brief

01:33:02

Than the last break. So if you have a question to send in do it immediately because we're rapidly running out of time chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:33:10

chrisarnson at gmail .com Uh, johnny in queens, new york will be getting to your

01:33:16

Question momentarily, so hang on and we'll be right back after these messages As host of iron sharpens iron radio,

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The coronavirus pandemic has rapidly changed our way of life bringing so many uncertainties

01:35:07

When will it end? Why do disasters like this happen? How do we deal with anxiety fear and the like?

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Well join us each friday on the program iron sharpens iron with your host chris arnson and pastor

01:35:21

Joe, jacobs as they explore god's word for answers to this and other of life's related issues

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Each friday at 1 p .m. Pacific 4 p .m. Eastern That's iron sharpens iron on firstloveradio .org

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Fridays 1 p .m. Pacific 4 p .m. Eastern to hear what the bible has to say about pandemics

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And how we should respond? Chris arnson host of iron sharpens iron radio here.

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01:37:28

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That's linbrookbaptist .org. Welcome back. This is chris arnzen And this is the final segment of our interview today with dr

01:43:13

Kurt daniel on his book the history and theology of calvinism Part two.

01:43:19

This is part two of the discussion. We began two weeks ago And now's the time to send in your email if you haven't done it already the question for dr

01:43:26

Daniel the chris arnzen at gmail .com chris arnzen at gmail .com And uh before we go to johnny in queens

01:43:35

Uh, dr. Larry young Of the brookside presbyterian church in boone, north carolina had a clarification question

01:43:44

He he says but when numbers are given for whitfield, where do they come from?

01:43:50

I'm assuming he's talking about The numbers that have been documented in reports of conversions at his

01:43:57

Uh revival meetings and so on there was open -air preaching Well, the biographies do mention that they were estimates later in his career whitfield said they were probably

01:44:10

Overestimated nevertheless, they were huge ten twenty thirty thousand perhaps as many as fifty thousand there was an occasion when um

01:44:19

Whitfield preached in philadelphia that his good friend benjamin franklin

01:44:26

Estimated by scientific mathematical ways how many people were there to hurt him hear him?

01:44:33

So he stepped it all off and then measured the radius how many people? Taking up an average of how much space let's say two square feet

01:44:42

And he says yes, there were x number of tens of thousands of people

01:44:47

And he also showed Whitfield could be Audibly understood one mile away.

01:44:55

Wow, Whitfield had a very powerful voice I i've heard that my laughter could be heard 20 miles away

01:45:04

I have people mock me all the time because of the Sound of the the loudness of my laughter.

01:45:10

In fact, some listeners have complained. I hurt their eardrums But uh, mary heart does good like a medicine

01:45:17

Well, uh, thank you, dr. Young and now to the patient johnny in queens new york charles spurgeon nicknamed a biblical election as calvinism

01:45:30

Like many particular baptists in history. They embrace the sovereignty of god like their presbyterian lutheran and congregational brethren

01:45:39

Unfortunately many baptists today deny such such biblical revelation

01:45:45

And are generally arminian slash pelagian in their theological framework

01:45:51

Does history testify that most? baptists Prior to the 20th century were theologically calvinist

01:45:59

I think so tom nettles has written extensively on this. It's been challenged by david allen and others

01:46:06

But I think that the evidence shows it Here's two or three things to consider

01:46:12

Most if not all of the major baptist confessions of faith before the year 1900 were explicitly calvinistic the first and second london baptist confessions of faith 1644 1689 the philadelphia confession of faith the new hampshire confession of faith and several others

01:46:34

The abstract of principles of the southern baptist seminary in louisville, kentucky, these are all explicitly

01:46:42

Calvinistic that is on the distinctive doctrines of calvinism Most if not all of the major theologians that were baptists john bunyan um

01:46:54

John gill So many others charles spurgeon Andrew fuller these were calvinists

01:47:01

There were some armenians then but the tide didn't really begin to change until the 20th century

01:47:08

I think that uh nettles michael haken and others have verified this from their historical studies

01:47:16

Do we have another question? Oh, i'm, sorry. I had my my microphone on mute Okay, I was

01:47:24

Okay, what's next then chris? Uh, let's see we have For oh ronald in eastern suffolk county long island, new york uh, and ronald says

01:47:37

What do you think about those who agree with us on the doctrines of sovereign grace? But who will never use the labels reformed or calvinist when describing themselves?

01:47:50

Well, the label doesn't really matter in my book. I quote both spurgeon and uh, jonathan edwards and Andrew floor had a similar quote saying the label isn't the main thing

01:48:00

But labels can be useful after all we want labels on bottles of medicine and food jars, don't we?

01:48:08

And those that say well, let's just say what the bible says and don't use labels. Well, you use labels like dispensationalism

01:48:17

Lutheranism we also use terms that are not in the bible like the trinity and the rapture

01:48:22

These are simply useful handles to sum up what we believe But we're not obviously believing it just because john calvin or spurgeon taught it but because of what the bible says

01:48:35

This is uh an interesting question because I have some friends and acquaintances

01:48:42

Who are in that category They do not use

01:48:47

The term calvinist or reform to describe themselves And that is fine just as you said, but this is where I find it problematic and i've had to lovingly rebuke a couple of these folks because when asked

01:49:07

By someone typically asked by someone who is hostile to these teachings. Are you a calvinist?

01:49:13

Oh, no, i'm not Now I think that's a dishonest answer it's one thing to say

01:49:19

I don't use that label I prefer attributing my beliefs to christ and the scriptures not to a non -canonical human author

01:49:30

Uh, I I don't like to attribute my beliefs to a famous hero of the faith that was not

01:49:37

Speaking god -breathed truths directly from the holy spirit, etc But to say just the statement no i'm not because you don't use that label

01:49:46

I think that that's misleading and could be considered a lie because if that person later finds out you believe in those five points that are

01:49:57

Nicknamed the five points of calvinism whether you call them that or not and you believe in the broader understanding of Theology that has historically been labeled reformed

01:50:09

If they find that out they're going to think that you're a liar and you just I think you you bring reproach upon yourself and Give doubt to your integrity and honesty.

01:50:19

What do you think about that? I agree. We should not be misleading. We should be up front

01:50:24

But sometimes people don't understand what we mean by certain terms. So we need to be careful

01:50:30

That's why some prefer to use terms like sovereign grace the doctrines of grace

01:50:39

Reformed theology and then again those could be misunderstood by people. Let me turn that around Very rarely do you find a calvinist that doesn't say he's a calvinist, but you find people that are obviously not

01:50:53

Saying they're a calvinist maybe because they believe once saved always saved But they don't believe the other doctrines are grace.

01:51:00

Why would they say they're a calvinist and they're really in Arminian? It's like you don't find evangelicals claiming to be liberal

01:51:08

But you do find liberals claiming to be evangelical when they're not the same way

01:51:14

Christians don't go around saying they're not Christians, but you do find a number of non -christians

01:51:20

Falsely claiming to be Christians. Let's be honest and on the right side of the fence Well, you have also won a free copy of the book so get us your mailing address and let's see here we also have

01:51:37

We have Joseph in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York and Joseph asked the question

01:51:44

I know that there are those that proclaim to be calvinists who say that you cannot be saved unless you agree

01:51:52

With the tulip, do you agree with that statement? No And I'm in good company.

01:52:00

For example Martin Lloyd -Jones said we don't even have to preach these to unbelievers.

01:52:06

It could be miss Misunderstood we need to preach the gospel person can be a five -point

01:52:12

Arminian and evangelical Lutheran And I'm a Baptist and still believe in the same basic gospel

01:52:20

William Ames the great Puritan in Mary the founder of the banner truth They said as much and I quote them in my book

01:52:27

The doctrines distinctive to Calvinism called the doctrines of grace of the five points are not of the essence of the gospel

01:52:35

There are many godly people that do not believe them But they do believe the fundamental doctrines of the gospel and on that there can be no compromise

01:52:46

Amen in fact folks. I interviewed. Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries on that very subject and he agrees with what?

01:52:54

Dr. Daniel just said and with me and do you know of any? highly respected

01:53:01

Person who is a Calvinist from history that believed that the Calvinists were the only

01:53:07

Christians Well, I know of one. I know him personally and I will not name him.

01:53:13

Well, I meant for mastery We have people he does not believe in the free offer and in his denominations magazine he explicitly said

01:53:23

Arminians do not believe in the gospel because they do not believe in the five points of Calvinist Calvinism they are not

01:53:31

Christians. I disagree with that. Yes Secondary doctrines they are not primary ones.

01:53:38

These will be in the class of say different views on the Millennium or Believers baptism or paid a baptism you can be a believer and disagree on this

01:53:49

Yes, because by denying Calvinism you are not necessarily denying the gospel When you say that Calvinism The primary teachings in the five points and so on are more about Those things that are hidden and not readily seen that Involve why one believes the gospel and so on but they are they are not a

01:54:15

Necessary element to the very gospel itself. Am I right? Yes, John MacArthur wrote the forward to my book and he goes into some detail on this the relationship of the

01:54:28

Gospel to the doctrines of grace. I think he handled it. Well, yeah, and I don't mean to undermine the seriousness of these things

01:54:35

But I do not condemn Arminian brothers and sisters because They don't agree with me yet.

01:54:43

Anyway Let's see here. By the way, you have won our final copy Joseph Of the book a story the history and theology of Calvinism.

01:54:52

So get us your mailing address Jake from Alberta, Canada Could your guest explain how we are guilty in Adams fall in light of scripture teaching us?

01:55:03

That the son shall not suffer for the iniquity of his father as per Ezekiel 18 verses 19 and 20 verses like that Indicate Specific sins that are passed on down mainly by imitation like father like son

01:55:23

One of the Ten Commandments talks about sins of the fathers being visited upon the sons

01:55:29

But specific ones do not get passed on down if the children do not Imitate their their parents so you cannot be punished for a crime.

01:55:39

You did not commit That was not talking about original sin original sin means we were in Adam when he sinned

01:55:47

So it's not we're being punished for his sin We are being punished for the nature of sin that we inherit from him

01:55:55

And that is something we're born in by the way We are born with the nature of sin and that includes the guilt of them

01:56:03

We are born sinful and guilty Amen. Mm.

01:56:08

Well, I want you to have about three minutes to summarize what you most want Ashton the hearts and minds of our listeners today before we run out of time

01:56:17

These wonderful truths that I have explained in my book taken from the Bible should move us number one to love

01:56:24

Christ more To love other people more. They're your first two love commandments to worship

01:56:30

God more when you see more of his Glorious sovereignty and his majesty that should move us to an awesome

01:56:38

Reverence and worship of God It should humble us Should move us to love our neighbor and to share the gospel more and to reach out and meet his needs

01:56:48

It should help us to fellowship with the Saints more in the fellowship of the local church

01:56:53

These have very practical applications in our lives But as I said,

01:56:58

I guess I sound like a broken record if some of your listeners still remember what records were

01:57:04

It should move us to love Jesus more deeply from the heart.

01:57:09

I think that's the most important thing in the Bible Jesus said so the greatest of the commandments and that should be

01:57:18

Particularly shown in the lives of those that believe these wonderful doctrines of Christ Praise God, I think we have time for one more question we have

01:57:32

Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania and Susan Margaret asks, do you believe that?

01:57:42

Belief in Calvinism is required for membership in a church that is confessionally reformed

01:57:49

And I she probably means should it be because obviously there are some Churches who believe it is necessary.

01:57:55

I don't agree with that. But if you could comment yourself Well, many churches do it do have it in their statement of faith or Constitution that you have to believe in these to be a member

01:58:06

And so the honest thing is if you do believe in it Then you can join the church if you do not you need to discuss it with the elders there and say that they allow

01:58:18

Exceptions for some of them some churches do some do not Ideally, it should not be in a constitution

01:58:24

My opinion it should be stated in such a way that true believers and the gospel should be a member of that Church and yet maybe the elder should be held to a higher standard on these things similar things

01:58:38

For example with with baptism. I hope that gives a general answer

01:58:44

You don't want to raise the bar of membership or of salvation any higher than what the

01:58:50

Bible does right no higher Nor any lower, right and we don't want to equate the qualifications for membership with the qualifications for elders and deacons and teachers

01:59:01

Because of the fact, you know, I think that sanctification needs to be allowed for us when somebody has not yet quite

01:59:08

Grasp these things but they should be given time in God's Timing to do to do so But anyway, we are out of time and I want to make sure that our listeners have the website for faith

01:59:21

Bible Church in Springfield, Illinois that that that website is faith

01:59:29

Bible Online net faith Bible online net and don't forget to go to CV BBS calm to order

01:59:37

The book published by Evangelical Press and that is the history and theology of Calvinism if you could hang on brother

01:59:44

I'd like to give you a proper goodbye off the air and I want to thank everybody who listened and I want you all to Always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater