May 11, 2020 Show with Dr. Curt Daniel on “The History and Theology of Calvinism” (Part 3)

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May 30, 2020

May 11, 2020 Dr. CURT DANIEL, author & pastor of Faith Bible Church of Springfield, Illinois, who will address: PART *3* of: “The HISTORY & THEOLOGY of CALVINISM”

June 24, 2020 Show with Dr. Curt Daniel on “The History & Theology of Calvinism” (Part 4)

00:04: Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister, George Norcross, in downtown
00:10: Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,
00:23: Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:31: Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
00:38: Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.
00:50: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,
01:00: Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,
01:10: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet
01:15: Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
01:20: This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 11th day of May, 2020, and I hope all of you moms out there had a really wonderful and blessed
01:34: Mother's Day yesterday, and I sure do miss my mom, who has been in eternity with Christ since 1995.
01:43: Well, I am thrilled to have back on the program for the third time,
01:49: Dr. Kurt Daniel, who is a author and pastor of Faith Bible Church of Springfield, Illinois, and today we are going to be addressing part three of his recent book,
02:03: The History and Theology of Calvinism, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.
02:10: Kurt Daniel. Thank you, Chris. Good to be back. I'm ready to do some iron sharpening iron.
02:17: Amen. Now, when I said this is a recent book, the actual manuscript has been around for quite a long time, correct?
02:24: Yes, it began as a self -published syllabus that I used in a couple of churches, but over the years
02:32: I expanded it and it was published in February of this year. Great. Well, it's a beautiful 900 -page hardback, and I think any red -blooded
02:42: Calvinist would be delighted to have this as a part of their library, and hopefully a much -used part of their library, and as we always do, to remind our listeners who may have forgotten or to introduce your church to those hearing you for the first time, tell our listeners about Faith Bible Church of Springfield, Illinois.
03:06: I've been pastor for 25 years. Before that, I served a church in Texas. Faith Bible Church began in the early 1950s, and we could describe ourselves as an independent
03:18: Reformed Baptist church. Great, and if anybody wants more information on Faith Bible Church of Springfield, Illinois, you can go to faithbibleonline .net,
03:32: faithbibleonline .net, and hopefully we'll remember to repeat that information later on in the program.
03:41: Well, we want to make sure that we delve into some unexplored territory that we haven't already covered in our previous two broadcasts on this same subject, and one of those very important subjects, which is also highly misunderstood, is the doctrine of reprobation, and that is something that Calvinists believe that is probably one of the things most despised by those who are opponents of Calvinism, but if you could please define reprobation.
04:19: Reprobation would be the flip side of unconditional election, which is the second of the so -called five points of Calvinism, so it could be summed up as basically non -election.
04:33: God chose some, that's election. Reprobation means there are some that God did not choose.
04:42: Some have given this the term double predestination. It's double or nothing.
04:47: The idea of single predestination would not be biblical. The only way it could be single is if God elected everybody or if God elected nobody.
04:58: He chose some, like Ephesians 1 .4, he chose us, and therefore there were some he did not choose, so it is double.
05:07: Like election, reprobation means that it's in eternity, not by us, it's by God.
05:14: It's unconditional, it's not based upon foreseeing that we would reject
05:20: Christ, for example. If that's the case, then nobody would be chosen because we're all sinners.
05:27: It was a choice of people that would be sinners, but the ultimate choice is
05:32: God. It's irreversible, it's a definite number, and it always comes to pass, like election.
05:40: It's not a tentative or a contingent idea. It is something that definitely will come to pass.
05:48: Reprobation is not the same thing as total depravity. Everybody is totally depraved, but not everybody is reprobate.
05:57: It's not the same thing as the unpardonable sin, which I preached on recently.
06:03: Some people are reprobate that have never committed the unpardonable sin. However, those that did commit the unpardonable sin are reprobate.
06:14: Also, reprobation is not the same thing as superlapsarianism. All true historic
06:20: Calvinists should believe in reprobation. Now, there's only a slim minority that have questions about that.
06:27: Key places in Scripture get back to the writings of Paul, Romans 9. Now, that's a hard chapter by any account.
06:35: Perhaps Peter was thinking of that over in 2 Peter 3 when he said, there are some things in Paul's letters that are hard to understand.
06:43: He didn't say impossible. He didn't say that they're wrong. He said they're hard to understand.
06:49: So Romans 8 gives us election in Romans 8, 29 and 30. Then in chapter 9, he tries to answer the question, why is it that some
07:01: Gentiles are saved and some Jews are not saved? And the answer is, God chose some
07:07: Gentiles, not all. And he chose some Jews, but not all Jews.
07:13: The difference is his. Key verses where he said, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.
07:19: Then he gives several examples, such as Jacob and Esau, these twin brothers. So he says,
07:24: Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated. And those were individuals. They were also types of all other people that are either elected like Jacob or not elected like Esau.
07:38: So the difference is made by God because Paul says this happened before they were created or before they had even done anything.
07:47: In fact, it's from before the foundation of the world. Then he gives another example, Pharaoh. It's almost like he was saying, well,
07:55: Moses have I loved. Pharaoh have I hated. And loving and hating, they're referred to choosing some out of love and rejecting others and leaving them under wrath and under hatred.
08:09: So he chose Moses and others, but he did not choose Pharaoh. And again, these are types of others that will follow.
08:17: Thirdly, he gives an illustration of a potter and clay. A potter decides to make a pot, several pots out of a lump of clay.
08:26: He divides the lump and out of one part, he makes a beautiful vase, for example.
08:32: And that would be a picture of election. People that will be apprised on God's shelf and they will contain his love.
08:40: The other part of the lump of clay is rejected and they're sinful. And he moves them into a vessel of dishonor that will be punished in hell.
08:50: And that's talking about the reprobate. Now, he knows that when he gives those illustrations, there'll be objections.
08:58: And the objection that's put there is this doesn't sound fair. Why did you make me like this?
09:06: Paul says, just remember, you are still a lump of clay and you're guilty. So he says, who are you, old man?
09:13: That replies against God. Shall the pot or the clay say to the potter, why have you made me like this?
09:20: No, no. We need to remember, as I've said several times in these broadcasts, two important truths.
09:27: Number one, God is holy and sovereign. And secondly, mankind is sinful and guilty.
09:35: God owes us nothing except punishment. We can offer no objections. We can ask questions and we should.
09:43: But we cannot object to God's ways. Now, there are other verses in the Bible that mention the reprobation.
09:49: 1 Thessalonians 5, Paul says, God did not appoint us to wrath.
09:55: The us is referring to the elect. Chapter 1, verse 4. He's not saying
10:01: God has not appointed anybody to wrath. He has not appointed Christians, believers, the church, the elect.
10:07: He hasn't appointed them. He has appointed the non -elect that will never believe they are appointed to wrath.
10:15: And that's what we mean by reprobation. We see this in the life of Jesus with his apostles.
10:21: Eleven of them were elect. Judas was reprobate. He was not elect. He was never a believer.
10:27: It says that he was a demon. He went to his own place. In John 13, Jesus said,
10:32: I don't speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen. He chose all the other apostles but not
10:40: Judas. So you could say it's another principle. Peter have I loved but Judas have
10:46: I hated. And so all those that are elect are like Peter and Moses and like Jacob.
10:53: But all those that are not chosen are like Judas and like Pharaoh and like that other part of the lump of clay and like Esau.
11:03: Here's another one for people that are taking notes. If you want to say, well, give me some more verses. Matthew 5,
11:09: Jesus prayed and said, Father, I thank you that you have hidden these things from some people and have revealed them to others.
11:17: There's your division. God chose some and Jesus reveals salvation to some and they're saved.
11:25: He does not reveal these things. He does not open the eyes and the hearts of others because they are reprobate.
11:32: We see this division over and over again. You go to the book of Revelation, you're going to read some verses that are going to make you swallow and breathe hard.
11:41: And here's one of them. Revelation 13 talks about people that are following the beast, the
11:48: Antichrist. And it says, whose names have not been written in the book of the of the of life of the lamb from the foundation of the world.
11:57: Back in eternity, God chose some and wrote their names in the book of life. Other names were not written in that book of life, never will be written in the book of life.
12:07: These are ones that God passed over their reprobate and in history, they stay lost sinners and they end up in hell.
12:18: Well, that's a brief summary, Chris, and I can share some more, but I'll turn it back over to you.
12:24: Well, I wanted to read. I wanted to read chapter three of the
12:29: London Baptist Confession on this issue. The 1689 London Baptist Confession, also known as the
12:35: Second London Confession. Chapter three, paragraph three. By the decree of God for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestined or for ordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ to the praise of his glorious grace.
12:55: Others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
13:05: And the confession cites first Timothy chapter five, verse 21,
13:10: Matthew chapter 25, verse 34, Ephesians chapter one, verses five and six,
13:17: Romans chapter nine, verse 22 and 23 and Jude chapter four or Jude four,
13:24: I should say. Um, the reason I brought that up is because some people who are not
13:34: Calvinists, uh, wrongly equate our understanding of election versus reprobation or predestination versus reprobation.
13:47: As if we believe in equal ultimacy, that God, just as he has to divinely intervene when it comes to the predestination of men, uh, he is doing something extra, uh, to the, to man to make him a reprobate.
14:09: In other words, man would not have been worthy of hell if it were not for God intervening in some way to make him worthy of hell.
14:19: And that is the understanding that many have of our beliefs and therefore is one of the reasons they disdain what we believe because they're basically making out hell bound sinners victims as it were, or they're saying that we make, uh, them victims, uh, that don't really deserve hell.
14:41: Yes, they misunderstand. We would say in answer to that, just as God saves some sinners in the same way back in eternity, he chose some that would become sinners.
14:59: Um, talking about that lump of clay, if you want to get deep back in eternity, God foreordained everything that comes to pass.
15:06: One thing that was foreordained would be that Adam and Eve would sin and all humanity would be sinners.
15:14: Out of that foreordained humanity, God chose to save some and that's guaranteed.
15:22: The other ones that he's foreseeing because he's foreordained, they are still sinners and he has not chosen them.
15:30: We would call that preparation or rejection passing over them and then pre damnation.
15:39: Just like God presets or predetermined the destiny of those he has chosen.
15:45: God also foreordains and predestined the ultimate destiny of those is not chosen and it would be damnation for their sins.
15:57: And then in time, God softens the heart of the elect, but he hardens the heart of the reprobate.
16:04: Hardening is mentioned in Romans chapter nine. And then you have these twin destinies. The elect go to heaven.
16:10: The non -elect go to hell. Those that go to heaven can only thank God for the election.
16:16: Those that are reprobate cannot blame God. They can only blame themselves. Now, here's something worth pondering,
16:24: Chris. Theoretically, God could have chosen everybody, but he didn't because some end up in hell.
16:31: Theoretically, God could have chosen nobody, but he did choose some because some end up in heaven.
16:37: The answer in the Bible is God chose some, but not the others. It says the rest, in other words, those that God passed over, they are still guilty and he did not choose them.
16:50: Excellent. And one of the key or a couple of the key words in paragraph three of chapter three of the
16:59: London Baptist Confession regarding the reprobate is that others being left to act, and that's the key word there, being left to act in their sin, to their just condemnation to the praise of his glorious justice.
17:22: God is, as it were, is passing them over to what they already are and leaving them the way they already are.
17:29: It would be like a governor choosing to pardon some criminals. Is that unjust to those that he did not choose to pardon?
17:38: We're still talking about sinners. Remember, I keep saying, remember God is holy and sovereign.
17:43: Mankind is guilty and sinful. Now, the choice of some necessarily means there were some he did not choose.
17:53: It's like when God chose David to be the next king, he sent Samuel out there to the house of Jesse, and he looks at all these sons and says, the
18:02: Lord didn't choose you. He didn't choose you. You are not the one. He comes to David, this is the one you have chosen.
18:08: Just like when you get married, you are confirming your choice of that person and forsaking all others.
18:16: So, if God chose some, that implies God did not choose others.
18:23: Now, there are some objections. How about if I quickly answer some of them, Chris? Some of them paint the picture that, well, this idea of election and reprobation says at judgment day or maybe after someone dies, here's someone that wants to be saved.
18:44: But maybe it's in this life, and he's lonely, he's guilty, and he comes and says, Jesus, save me, help!
18:50: And then Jesus says, sorry, bud, you're not one of the elect, you're a reprobate, go away.
18:55: And he slams the door in his face. That's not what we teach. Nor do we teach, well, God goes and drags in someone that doesn't want to believe, doesn't repent, and makes them a
19:04: Christian, like saying, sit down there and you'll be happy. No, this is not what we teach.
19:10: God works on the elect in such a way they willingly come and believe. And those that are not elect, they're not asking to be saved, they do not want to be saved.
19:20: They would prefer to go to hell than believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. And so that idea that people paint is totally wrong.
19:30: Chris, virtually all the objections come down to this. It's not fair. Well, that's what
19:35: Paul answered when he says, who are you that objects against God? You are just a sinful man.
19:41: We cannot blame God any more than a convicted criminal can curse out the judge and say,
19:46: I'll get you. You're not fair. The fact that a person accuses God of being unfair in election and reprobation just shows how totally depraved the heart of man is that does not want to accept the clear teaching of God's word.
20:04: We all deserve reprobation. Nobody deserves election. So none of us can complain.
20:11: We're no better than Jacob or Esau. God didn't choose someone because he's better and rejected someone because he's worse.
20:19: Often God has chosen people that are the worst of sinners. That's right, soul of Tarsus. Yeah, a good case could be made that Jacob was worse than Esau.
20:30: Jacob, if I love Esau, if I hate him, however. So God is absolutely just and fair.
20:36: He shows mercy to some. He withholds saving mercy from others, but he doesn't show injustice to anybody.
20:45: And it's objection. I was just going to say, it's ironic that those who believe there is a hell and believe that Jesus is the only way to salvation, but who are not
20:58: Calvinists or theologically reformed, when they point the finger of our understanding of God being unfair, how is it fair on a human understanding and a human definition or understanding of fairness that there are children born in the
21:19: Middle East in militant Muslim families, and if they were to, when they grow up, express their faith in Jesus Christ, they might be, and most likely would, be executed.
21:35: And you have some children born in the Bible belt to loving, nurturing Christian parents.
21:40: And you have some other children who are born, the children of crack addicts and all kinds of criminals and so on, where they're never going to hear the gospel.
21:52: How is this an equal playing field? How is this a demonstration of fairness when they all, all these children have to believe upon the name of Christ in order to be saved?
22:04: And yet they're not starting at the same starting point. Their journeys are going to be very different and much more difficult depending upon where you happen to be born.
22:17: So their argument for fairness really falls flat on the face. Yeah, we're all born sinners, but some are born with more opportunity to believe in Christ than others.
22:29: Later we can talk about what about those that never hear the gospel. Another objection people ask is, well, doesn't the
22:35: Bible say that God desires all that hear the gospel to believe in Jesus? Yes, that's the
22:41: Great Commission, the free offer. We invite people, we plead with them, we warn them, we lovingly urge them to believe in Jesus, and so does
22:50: God. But the Bible also teaches that in the hidden counsels of God, he has chosen only some.
22:58: It's a paradox. It's not a contradiction because it's not the same kind of desire.
23:04: So God, we're not saying that we shouldn't preach the gospel or urge people to believe in Jesus.
23:10: These are both equally true. One last thing is a person can know if he's elect.
23:16: It says that in 2 Peter 1 .10. Brethren, give all diligence to make your calling an election, sure, but nobody can know he is reprobate because he might be an unbeliever today, he might be a believer tomorrow, and that just proves he was elect all this time.
23:35: And so we should be very, very cautious about pronouncing anybody to be reprobate.
23:40: He might convert at the last minute like that thief on the cross, and that shows that he was elect afterwards.
23:49: And there have been even serial killers on death row who have become
23:55: Christians or life in prison as well. I've had inmates write to me, we can thank
24:01: God that he has chosen us, but none of us can blame God for not choosing others.
24:07: Amen. Well, we have a listener in Cork, Ireland who has a question.
24:13: Mary says, hello, Dr. Daniel and Chris, I have a question for you.
24:18: Please explain to me that if God has predetermined some for destruction, why does he say that he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked?
24:28: In Ezekiel chapter 18 verse 23, do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the sovereign
24:35: Lord? Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24:40: And the scripture in 2 Peter chapter 3 verse 9, the Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness.
24:50: Instead, he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
24:56: Why would he call for repentance if the person is already predetermined for destruction? And how can these views be reconciled?
25:05: Well, there are several other verses that teach that same thing. You quoted Jeremiah 18 verse 23, also verse 32 and chapter 33 verse 11, and then of course the 2
25:17: Peter 3 verse 9. I also would say 1 Timothy 2 verse 4, and there are a few others along the same lines.
25:26: I just said, God does desire people to repent and be saved. He is grieved and angered when they do not.
25:33: That is absolutely true. The Bible teaches it, no uncertain terms.
25:40: But parallel with that, not contradicting that, is that in eternity, in a different way,
25:46: God has chosen only some and not others. He has not revealed how both of these parallel truths can be harmonized.
25:56: In the same way, we cannot thoroughly understand how Jesus is God and man.
26:03: We cannot thoroughly understand how God is one but also three.
26:09: But we know both are taught in the scriptures. It's up to us to simply believe them and bow in reverence before God and try to gain more understanding.
26:19: That model, I think, is applicable to this. Yes, the same Bible teaches God desires people to be saved and he is grieved when they die lost.
26:29: That is balanced with the equal teaching. God has chosen some and not others.
26:35: We need to accept it for what it says and praise God. And where she says, let's see here, why would he call for repentance if the person is already predetermined for destruction?
26:50: Well, the call to repent comes from his word, of course, but most often through us, through his children,
27:01: Christians, who are preaching and evangelizing and declaring the word.
27:07: And we do not know who the elect are or the reprobate. I mean, we have an idea of who the elect are after they're saved.
27:15: But while they are in a lost condition, we have no idea who the elect are. And we are to preach the same gospel and the same call to repentance to every living soul.
27:26: And in fact, isn't this one of the things that divides some of the hyper -Calvinists from genuine
27:33: Calvinists? And I believe this was a main point in Spurgeon's day with the hyper -Calvinists that they attacked
27:39: Spurgeon over, is that Spurgeon believed that even the reprobate are duty -bound to repent and believe, whereas many hyper -Calvinists do not believe that.
27:51: Yes, I've studied hyper -Calvinism for well over 40 years. My doctoral dissertation was on that.
27:58: Hyper -Calvinism says we are not to offer the gospel to everybody. God does not desire the reprobate to believe or to repent or to be saved.
28:09: That is not true Calvinism. True Calvinism says, the Bible clearly says, God desires their salvation.
28:16: God commands them to repent. They're duty -bound to believe in Jesus. God has grieved that they die lost.
28:23: That is historic Calvinistic understanding of the Bible. Fortunately, hyper -Calvinism is in a very, very small minority.
28:33: I doubt that many of you listeners have even met a true hyper -Calvinist. There are very few.
28:39: There are brothers and sisters in Christ, but they are wrong on this issue. But there is, unfortunately, if you're on the internet long enough, there is a growing number of hyper -Calvinists that have come out from being hidden in obscurity.
28:56: There are a growing number of them. There's still a tiny minority. They do tend to be a little bit loud and vocal on the internet.
29:05: They generally show a very low level of understanding of Reformed history, the views of Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, the
29:14: Puritans, and whatever. There are a couple of denominations that are very small with just a couple of dozen churches that do officially reject the idea of a free offer and duty, faith, and God in any way desiring the salvation of all men, such as the reprobate.
29:33: They're very small, very vocal, but very wrong. I intend to answer them in a very large book one day that I'm writing.
29:44: Oh, great. Well, I can't wait for that to come out, and I'd love to interview you on that, obviously. We have to go to our first break right now.
29:51: If anybody else would like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,
29:58: C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the
30:07: USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
30:13: Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages with more of Kurt Daniel and the history and theology of Calvinism.
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40:28: I'm Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.
40:34: I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,
40:40: Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.
40:47: It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in his holy word, and to enthusiastically proclaim
41:05: Christ Jesus the King and his doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.
41:12: I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.
41:21: For more information on Hope Reformed Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.
41:27: That's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711.
41:36: That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.
41:53: Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours is
41:59: Dr. Kurt Daniel. This is part three of a series of interviews we've begun a little while ago on his book,
42:10: The History and Theology of Calvinism. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,
42:20: c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. And as always, please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the
42:30: USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
42:36: And we have Ted in Moundville, Alabama, who says,
42:43: A significant number of Presbyterians and members of other Reformed denominations argue that the term
42:50: Reformed Baptist is an oxymoron. To wit, our own Dr. James White has been denied his
42:57: Reformed Baptist identity by none other than Dr. R. Scott Clark, who appears to be on the faculty at Westminster Theological Seminary.
43:12: So, if you could, please explain this situation.
43:19: Well, Chris, there's unity and diversity within the Reformed or Calvinistic family.
43:25: There is a mainstream, and there are those that are slightly on one side or the other of the mainstream, such as Baptism.
43:34: Mainstream Calvinism would be paid a Baptist, but there have always been a large number of legitimate
43:42: Calvinists that are Believer's Baptists. John Bunyan, who wrote the best -selling of all the
43:47: Puritan books, Hogan's Progress. Charles Spurgeon, considered the greatest Reformed preacher of all time.
43:54: John Gill, later Martin Lloyd -Jones, whom some people are not aware that he changed on Baptism and became
44:02: Believer's Baptist. So, I would just succinctly say, you look at church history, and there's unity and diversity, and that those that are
44:13: Calvinistic Baptists are still part of the family. Yes, it's really an absurd thing to point out, an unnecessary thing to point out, as if these folks who are making these derogatory remarks have a sole claim to what the word
44:35: Reformed means. And what makes it even more ridiculous is that the
44:40: London Baptist confession of faith is nearly identical to the
44:46: Westminster Confession. So, to act as if there is nothing Reformed about a confessionally
44:54: Calvinist Baptist is ridiculous. But, and the follow -up question that Ted from Moundville, Alabama has asked, in the early years of our country's history,
45:07: Baptists were overwhelmingly Calvinistic in their soteriology, if not also in their ecclesiology.
45:14: Now, the reverse seems to be true, notwithstanding the fact that Calvinistic Baptists have a very high profile in seminaries, publishing, and social media.
45:23: My question is, what happened? What caused this transformation among U .S. Baptists, and to some extent, among Baptists in the broader
45:31: English -speaking world? Up until about the year 1900, probably most
45:38: Baptists in America subscribed to what we would call Calvinism, the five points.
45:44: All the founders of the Southern Baptist Convention were explicit five -point Calvinists, especially
45:49: James Pettigrew Boyce, founder of Southern Baptist Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.
45:55: But I could go on naming many, many others, John Broderick, and so forth, even the great
46:01: A .T. Robertson, the great great grammarian. So about the year 1900, it began to shift after that generation passed away, and mainly through Edgar Mullins, who also taught at Southern Seminary.
46:16: Arminianism became the majority report. Today, historic
46:22: Calvinists are in the minority, but they are growing. There are over 200 churches aligned with something called
46:29: Founders' Ministries, led by Tom Maskell and Tom Nettles and brethren like that.
46:36: These want to rediscover the vision of the founders of the Southern Baptist Convention. You could also find
46:42: Calvinists in history and today in other Baptist groups, except the freewill
46:47: Baptists, which have always been explicitly Arminian. I'm glad to see that there's definitely a resurgence, and some of the most well -known preachers today would be
46:58: Baptists and Calvinists. To ask a little question of my own about this, the majority, if not all, of the
47:12: Ivy League schools were built upon Puritan theology,
47:18: Reformed theology. How did that collapse into apostate leftism and liberalism?
47:27: It was the same disease called apostate liberalism. It came in first.
47:34: They were mainly Calvinists that founded a lot of these institutions, especially Princeton, very explicitly so.
47:41: But then another generation arose that wandered toward Arminianism. As I argue in my book, the tendency of Arminianism is to reject
47:51: Calvinism and to lean toward liberalism. In the case of Portland, it would be these great universities.
47:58: So they went from Arminianism to Universalism, Unitarianism, and movements like that,
48:07: Pelagianism, and then it became just very secular agnosticism. That's the tendency we have to oppose.
48:15: I will say this, however. Some of the strongest opponents of liberalism have been
48:21: Arminian fundamentalists. I link arms with them on a lot of things. We have a lot more in common than our differences.
48:30: Yes, and the Arminian fundamentalist brethren that we have typically do not call themselves
48:35: Arminian, no. Well, a few do, but most don't. But we would agree with them on the fundamentals of the faith.
48:44: We accept them as brethren. They would accept us as brethren. But neither of us would consider liberals and groups like that.
48:51: No, those are dangerous opponents. So historically, before the collapse of the
48:56: Ivy League schools into apostasy, you're saying it didn't go straight from reform theology to apostasy.
49:03: It was the Calvinists surrendered to Arminianism and liberalism. By the way, the
49:11: Presbyterians founded Princeton. Baptists founded Brown University. And so these had a rich heritage, but they all got away from it.
49:20: We need to be vigilant. That applies to our churches, our families, our colleges, our denominations.
49:27: We need to be vigilant. Amen. Well, before we go to our midway break, I want you to at least define our next topic, the regulative principle, or as you pronounce it, regulative.
49:40: And this is something that separates even fellow
49:46: Reformed Christians. You might even have Reformed Christians on the same pew disagree on this, but it's typically churches that disagree with one another.
49:59: I think that, I could be wrong, but I think that predominantly Reformed churches in the
50:05: United States and perhaps worldwide believe in the regulative principle. But there still are some dissenting voices.
50:14: And even some from very conservative Reformed Christians. But if you could define this for us.
50:21: It has to do with the question, how should we worship God? Churches have been involved in the so -called worship wars.
50:28: And the answer is we worship in God's way, as if God said, I will tell you how to worship me in the way that pleases me, and don't do it in any other way that does not please me.
50:40: Historic Calvinists have believed in the regulative principle. God regulates.
50:45: He lays down the boundaries and the regulations of how we are to truly worship him.
50:51: Now that's the principle. A few, very few, non -Calvinists accept this principle.
50:58: And there are some Calvinists that don't, but the mainstream does. You can find it in John Calvin. By far most of the
51:05: Puritans, it's embodied in the Westminster Confession. And so many others. And so we can talk about this after the break.
51:13: It's God's way. Sola Scriptura. By the Bible. Don't add to it.
51:18: Don't take away from it. God tells us how he wants to be worshipped. Okay, great.
51:24: We are going to go to our midway break and continue the discussion on the regulative principle. And if you have any questions, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
51:34: chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please, as always, give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the
51:41: USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Oh, and I forgot to tell our friend
51:48: Ted in Moundville, Alabama, I believe.
51:56: I can't remember now the state that Ted was in. I just had his question in front of me.
52:03: But I believe it's Alabama. Moundville, Alabama. You have won a free copy of Kurt Daniel's 900 -page hardback,
52:11: The History and Theology of Calvinism. So please give us your full mailing address in Moundville.
52:19: And we are going to be back after this break. And keep in mind, folks, this is our longer than normal break.
52:26: Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida, 90 .1 FM, Lake City, Florida.
52:32: They air this program twice a day. Once in morning drive time and once in the evening in a pre -recorded fashion.
52:40: And they require the middle of our show to air public service announcements and other things that localize
52:46: Iron Sharp and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida. So while they air those messages, we air our globally heard commercials.
52:56: Therefore, please use this time wisely while we take this elongated break. And please write down as much of the information provided by our advertisers as you possibly can so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them.
53:15: Because keep in mind, folks, the more often that you patronize our advertisers, the more likely they will remain our advertisers, which means the more likely we will remain for a longer future on the air because we depend upon the finances that come from the advertising dollars of our sponsors.
53:37: So please try to patronize our advertisers as much as possible and also use this break to send in your questions to Kurt Daniel at ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.
53:50: ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back right after these messages from our sponsors with more of Kurt Daniel.
54:28: Systematic and homiletical theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylor, South Carolina.
54:35: And the NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Chuck White at the
54:41: First Trinity Lutheran Church in Tonawanda, New York, and the NASB is my Bible of choice.
54:47: I'm Pastor Anthony Methenia of Christ Church in Radford, Virginia, and the NASB is my
54:52: Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jesse Miller of Damascus Road Christian Church in Gardnerville, Nevada, and the
54:59: NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Bruce Bennett of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York, and the
55:08: NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Rodney Brown of Metro Bible Church in Southlake, Texas, and the
55:16: NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Red Mills Baptist Church in Mayapac Falls, New York, and the
55:24: NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep
55:30: Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?
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55:44: Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com to place your order.
56:16: I'm Pastor Jim Harrison of Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York. I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my
56:26: New York debates. I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the
56:36: Holy Scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.
56:41: I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,
56:48: Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net,
56:56: that's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711, that's 631 -696 -5711.
57:06: Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
57:16: The coronavirus pandemic has rapidly changed our way of life, bringing so many uncertainties.
57:23: When will it end? Why do disasters like this happen? How do we deal with anxiety, fear, and the like?
57:30: Well, join us each Friday on the program Iron Sharpens Iron with your host Chris Arnzen and Pastor Joe Jacobs as they explore
57:39: God's Word for answers to this and other of life's related issues. Tune in at firstloveradio .org,
57:48: that's firstloveradio .org, each Friday at 1 p .m.
57:53: Pacific, 4 p .m. Eastern. That's Iron Sharpens Iron on firstloveradio .org,
58:00: Friday's 1 p .m. Pacific, 4 p .m. to hear what the Bible has to say about pandemics and how we should respond.
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59:51: Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at Lynbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.
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01:03:47: Before I return to Dr. Curt Daniel, I just have a couple of announcements to make.
01:03:54: First of all, one very important, very serious announcement
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01:04:17: Banu Gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree, and he is experiencing absolutely amazing results working with coronavirus patients who, at his urging, have partaken in a vitamin
01:04:33: D3 regimen, and every one of them, every single one without exception, who has undergone the regimen for at least a couple of weeks, has been cured of the coronavirus.
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01:05:28: Dr. Gadi immediately at 516 -354 -2000. 516 -354 -2000.
01:05:37: Please do not hesitate. Dr. Gadi is an amazing brother in Christ. He's an elder at New Hyde Park Baptist Church on Long Island, and he is taking time out of his extremely busy schedule to talk at great length with coronavirus patients all over the world who don't even know him, that he doesn't even know.
01:06:01: And it's just amazing to me to see his dedication. I have a close personal friend
01:06:06: I've known for decades who has the coronavirus, and for 12 days he was in agony and experiencing extreme fatigue and experiencing sleepless nights due to his discomfort and pain.
01:06:26: And I told him about Dr. Gadi, and I told Dr. Gadi about him. He actually stopped by my friend's home, gave him the vitamin
01:06:36: D3, and after 12 days of being in agony, the very next day after starting the regimen, he sensed and felt a very noticeable breakthrough in the way he felt physically.
01:06:53: So I'm expecting him to be just another added person to the list of those who have been cured once he completes the regimen.
01:07:03: So please, don't hesitate. Call Dr. Banu Gadi at 516 -354 -2000, 516 -354 -2000, to ask him about his coronavirus vitamin
01:07:16: D regimen. And please tell him that you heard about him and his pharmacies from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
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01:10:40: Also, folks, if you are not a member of a local
01:10:45: Bible -believing church, if you're having a hard time finding a church wherever you live,
01:10:51: I have biblically faithful churches on lists from all over the world, all over the planet
01:11:00: Earth. So if you need my help, please send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com.
01:11:06: But I need a church in the subject line. I may be able to help you. I've already helped many people all over the planet
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01:11:26: So send me that email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put, I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Dr.
01:11:35: Kurt Daniel. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.
01:11:40: We are discussing his book, The History and Theology of Calvinism. And we already had you defined the regulative principle, which you call the regulative principle.
01:11:52: If you could continue on that theme, one of the things
01:11:58: I wanted to mention is that the regulative principle is contrasted typically with the normative principle, where it seems that the regulative principle will view the silences, the areas of silence in the scripture when it comes to worship, as a prohibition, where the normative principle will view the silence as a license for permission.
01:12:32: So if you could go through the contrast of those two understandings of worship.
01:12:39: Yes, Chris, God chooses how he is to be worshiped. He tells us, does not leave it to us.
01:12:46: The Catholic Church and the Episcopalians say, no, the church decides. Historically, Lutherans have said, well, if it's not forbidden in the
01:12:55: Bible, then it's permissible. Evangelicals picked up on that and went a step further, and say things like, well, we've always done it this way, or we're to decide, or let's do the latest thing to really bring people in.
01:13:09: So it's prone to fads and entertainment, because the shift has changed from being
01:13:15: God -centered. Now it's become man -centered entertainment. God's way is basically preaching, prayer, singing, communion, baptism, scripture reading.
01:13:26: It does not include things like puppet shows, or the preacher dressing up as a clown,
01:13:32: Jericho marches, and gimmicks like this, that are just silly and blasphemous.
01:13:39: The regulative principle says it's to be done by the Bible. What he commands, what examples we find, principles, such as in the
01:13:48: Ten Commandments. You shall not only not worship other gods, you shall not use pictures and statues.
01:13:56: Deuteronomy 4 says, don't add to or subtract from God's way. It's only what is commanded, not just what is explicitly forbidden.
01:14:07: There's a significant difference, because someone will do something in church and say, but the
01:14:12: Bible doesn't forbid this. Well, the Bible doesn't forbid a preacher riding a horse down the aisle, and that has happened in churches.
01:14:22: There's a church in Dallas that had a Christmas pageant, and had elephants riding down the aisle.
01:14:28: It doesn't forbid bright lights and smoke and other things, but those are clearly unbiblical.
01:14:34: We are to stick with what God tells us. Colossians 2 .23 warns against what the
01:14:41: King James translate as will worship, or self -imposed religion. It talks about devices we choose, rather than what
01:14:49: God has commanded. This is just what the Pharisees did. They added to God's commandments with their tradition.
01:14:56: We find examples in the Old Testament. Leviticus 10, Nadab and Abihu offered strange fire, and God said, they offered what
01:15:06: I did not command them to do. 2 Samuel 6, Uzzah was slain because he touched the ark, and God says, you don't touch it.
01:15:15: David had put the ark on a cart, and God had said, no, the ark belongs on the shoulders of the
01:15:21: Levites. Uzzah and David did what they thought was best, rather than sticking to what
01:15:27: God said. So God gives us the form, and of course there's freedom within the form, like he says, sing unto the
01:15:34: Lord, and we can choose different kinds of hymns. And only biblical worship is acceptable to God, Chris.
01:15:43: Any unbiblical worship is actually idolatry. Even if it's something that's not wrong in itself, in another context, you can do that maybe at home, but not in the worship of God.
01:15:56: Otherwise, it's idolatry. Calvin said our hearts are idol factories, and we are prone to invent idols and worship
01:16:05: God in any way that we want to. We're refashioning God in our own image. Now, one extreme of this would be sacramentalism.
01:16:13: You know, high church liturgy and incense and stuff like that, that's not biblical. Unfortunately, evangelicals are prone to the other one, a pseudo -worship, which is simply emotionalism.
01:16:25: It's carnal, and often it even has sexual connotations with some of the gyrations and some of the dancing.
01:16:32: But someone would say, well, what's wrong with this? Well, the Bible says all things should be done decently and in order.
01:16:39: God tells us what the order is. Jesus said, worship in spirit and truth. You could contrast that with flesh and error.
01:16:49: So there is a summary of the regulative principle, and our church practices it. Historic Calvinists have.
01:16:55: Very few non -Calvinists have. Remember, unbiblical worship is not acceptable to God.
01:17:03: It's a form of idolatry. Truly biblical worship in spirit and in truth is acceptable to God and well -pleasing in his sight.
01:17:13: There's a summary, and in a minute, I can give you one specific controversial area. So, Chris, over to you.
01:17:21: Well, I know that, as I was saying earlier, there is division, not only amongst
01:17:28: Reformed brethren over whether or not to adhere to the regulative principle, but even those that do adhere to it sometimes disagree.
01:17:39: For instance, as you probably well know, that our brethren in the Covenanter Presbyterian Church, the
01:17:45: Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America and the Reformed Presbyterian Church over in Europe, they are exclusive psalm singers and also worship exclusively acapella without musical instrumentation.
01:18:01: And they would say that we, if we have musical instruments in our church and we sing extra -biblical hymns, they would say that we are in violation of the regulative principle.
01:18:14: How do you respond to that? There's a very biblical answer to that, Chris. Okay. I wonder what they do when they sing acapella
01:18:22: Psalm 150, where almost every verse is talking about using musical instruments.
01:18:28: So there's a biblical principle. So far as psalms only, I follow the majority report.
01:18:34: It says Ephesians 5 says, we are to sing and make melody in our hearts unto the Lord, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.
01:18:44: So those are two biblical places that I would say fit better into the regulative principle than exclusive psalmody done acapella.
01:18:53: Now, the regulative principle, as far as I remember, restricts us to include in worship only things that are in the
01:19:05: New Testament. They may be also in the Old Testament, but they can't be exclusively in the
01:19:10: Old Testament. Am I right on that? Yes. There are certain things in the Old that we don't do. We don't have animal sacrifices, for example.
01:19:18: Well, maybe in your church you don't. I'm only kidding. I wouldn't be surprised if some group does bring in that sometime.
01:19:27: But we are to stick as closely to the Bible as possible. Okay, we do have, let's see here, we have an anonymous listener who says, how do you answer a friend who will tell you that they justify having dancing during their worship services?
01:19:49: Because in 2 Samuel chapter 6, we read that David danced before the
01:19:56: Lord with all his might. So how do you answer that?
01:20:02: I've heard that very same thing myself. Yes. First off, I've seen dancing in churches, both in person and on television, and by far most of it is much too sensual.
01:20:16: It's showing off. I can only think of one or two times when it was done, anything close to being decently in order.
01:20:25: Well, and that also goes back to what we just said about the— Yes, someone coming out with the
01:20:31: Old Testament permission, it's not repeated in the New. I wouldn't have much of an argument with that.
01:20:38: But with anything in worship, we need to stay as closely to the Bible as possible.
01:20:43: Someone could also say, as someone asked me once, well, what about speaking in tongues in some of the extraordinary gifts?
01:20:51: Aren't those to be done in the worship of the Church? First Corinthians 14. I'd say yes, when those were valid.
01:20:58: But in my opinion, the extraordinary gifts were temporary in the New Testament. I was at one time early in my
01:21:05: Christian life in the charismatic movement and took a different line until I saw what is being practiced today does not match what the scriptures describe those gifts, speaking in tongues, healings, gift of an apostleship.
01:21:20: Those were for the foundational generation of the early Church. Those should not be done in worship services today any more than other things that were done away, such as Old Testament animal sacrifices.
01:21:33: Well, thank you, Anonymous. And if you please email me your full name and your full address, obviously we will not reveal this information on the air.
01:21:45: You will receive a free copy of The History and Theology of Calvinism by our guest,
01:21:52: Dr. Kurt Daniel, beautiful 900 -page hardback, compliments of our friends at Evangelical Press, and also compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,
01:22:06: who will actually be the ones that ship the book out to you. So thank you very much for the excellent question.
01:22:13: Uh, the other thing that you were mentioning before in regard to images being forbidden.
01:22:21: Yes. And we do have a listener who wants to ask about that as well. We have
01:22:28: Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who says, one of the things that I can't understand is why many
01:22:37: Reformed Christians forbid pictures of Jesus if they are not being worshipped.
01:22:43: Because of the fact that it seems to me that if we were to take the command that we cannot have images at all of Jesus, that would mean that we would have to prohibit even having statues or paintings of birds and fish and animals, because the commandment also prohibits those, but they are tied in with bowing down to and worshipping these things.
01:23:14: If they are not being bowed down to, they seem to be harmless pieces of artwork that are completely allowable in modern day homes.
01:23:25: The problem is people use them in worship. Just go to a Catholic church and you'll see that.
01:23:31: Go to a Greek Orthodox church and look at their icons. The second of the
01:23:36: Ten Commandments is not just forbidding the use of statues and pictures of pagan gods, but of the one true
01:23:42: God, and God forbids that. If you're a Presbyterian, I would refer you to your own
01:23:49: Westminster larger catechism that forbids images of any or all of the three persons of the
01:23:57: Trinity. Catholic church will approve pictures of God the Father, such as in the Sistine Chapel.
01:24:03: Mormons have pictures of the Holy Spirit, but almost everybody except historic
01:24:10: Calvinists will say, well, what's wrong with pictures of Jesus in worship and in Sunday school literature?
01:24:18: There are a few groups other than Calvinists that take our view, and there are a few Calvinists that have reservations and say, what's wrong with using pictures?
01:24:27: Well, first off, let's address pictures of Jesus. Jesus is God and man.
01:24:33: We cannot portray him as God because God is invisible. He is his spirit, nor can we picture him as a man because we don't have any legitimate pictures of Jesus.
01:24:44: That's what I keep reminding people of. They show me this picture or Michelangelo's pictures, and I say, that's not
01:24:51: Jesus. That's an artist's imagination or he had some model posed for him, but that's not
01:24:58: Jesus. Therefore, there has no legitimate purpose for art or for worship.
01:25:04: The illustration I like, Chris, is this. Let's say a young man is married and he serves his country.
01:25:11: He joins the army, goes off to war. His wife misses him, and she doesn't happen to have any pictures of him.
01:25:18: So she writes him a letter and says, oh, John, guess what? I want to remember you in my heart.
01:25:26: So I took a picture of the man that lived down the street, and at night
01:25:31: I kiss that picture and I pretend I'm sleeping with you. How do you think
01:25:37: John's going to respond to that? He's going to say, not me, he's jealous.
01:25:43: The Bible frequently says God is a jealous God when it comes to this. So that is not a true picture of Jesus.
01:25:50: It's an artist's imagination or it's a model, and both of those are sinful. By the way, this applies to movies, art,
01:25:58: Sunday school, educational things. Maybe it's emotional and enticing, but so is pornography, by the way.
01:26:07: Emotionally enticing, but that's also forbidden. Pictures do not truly help.
01:26:13: Catholic Church says they are aids for the illiterate. Not all the Jews could read or write, and God forbade them from using pictures.
01:26:23: Now, God does allow the communion elements, which we can see, but those are not pictures. We have a direct command from God for that.
01:26:32: Jesus said worship in spirit and in truth. Have you noticed that the Bible doesn't even give us a physical description of Jesus?
01:26:40: Now, we know he was Jewish. He probably had a little bit darker skin, darker hair, but it doesn't give us an actual picture.
01:26:48: No inspired photographs or artists.
01:26:54: None of the apostles were artists. In fact, every movie or TV program, or even if you want to go beyond that, the vast majority of paintings and drawings as well of Jesus, he's extremely handsome, and that actually violates one of the few things that is in Scripture in describing him, that he was not comely that men might be drawn to him.
01:27:23: In other words, he wasn't handsome. Back to the email question, the Bible does allow for pictures of art, of trees and birds, and some of those were even allowed in the temple, but not pictures of God and Jesus is
01:27:39: God. There were even images of angels looking onto the Ark of the
01:27:44: Covenant, but that was the Ark of the Covenant. That's not in our churches. Someone might say, well, what about the
01:27:50: Holy Spirit as a dove? Well, that wasn't a human being. The Holy Spirit did not become a human being.
01:27:57: I think we ought to be careful about using anything. It gets back to the fundamental principle.
01:28:02: We should only use things and forms that God explicitly commands or we find legitimate examples of in the
01:28:12: Bible. Beyond that, we're wandering into idolatry, and that is a very serious thing.
01:28:20: Calvin said our hearts are auto factories. We may think we have a good motive, but we're ignorantly wandering into forbidden territory.
01:28:29: Let's do it God's way. God will be pleased and we will be edified. Well, I think what the listener can send in another email, we can clarify this.
01:28:43: In the Ten Commandments, in Exodus chapter 20, we read, starting in verse 3, you shall have no other gods before me.
01:28:56: You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath.
01:29:05: You shall not bow down to them or worship them. I'm assuming what the listener was saying was that the idol part, the fact that these are identified as idols and we are not to bow down to them and worship them, is the key factor because, as you just said, even though this command is telling us not to make an image of anything in heaven or on earth or in the sea, we can rightly have pictures of birds and animals and fish in our home.
01:29:42: In the same way, we can walk through the woods and see animals and trees and flowers, and that should move us to worship
01:29:50: God. But so far as the corporate worship of God's people, we should not use those sort of things.
01:29:59: For example, a lot of the statues the pagans and the apostates Jews used were of animals, like the golden calf.
01:30:07: So we shouldn't bring a cow or a bull or a lamb into the pulpit and use that as an aid of worship.
01:30:15: We should do it in spirit and in truth. When you do these things, it's appealing to the flesh, the left of the eyes and of the ears and things like that.
01:30:25: It's not spirit worship, it's carnal worship. This is more important than a lot of people realize.
01:30:33: Let's stick as closely to the Bible as we can. Well, I think we should move on, before we go to our final break, to a very controversial issue.
01:30:45: Again, this not only divides reformed from non -reformed, but it divides reformed people from one another who disagree over this.
01:30:55: Dying infants, the state of infants who die while in infancy.
01:31:03: There are many, if not most, reformed folk who would insist that you must take an agnostic position on their eternal state if they are actually infants when they die and can't make any kind of profession of repentance and faith.
01:31:23: You have to basically leave it in God's hands. We don't really know whether they are in heaven or not.
01:31:32: Our confession does mention that elect infants will be in heaven, but we obviously don't know who are the elect infants when they die.
01:31:42: But you have some, Charles Haddon Spurgeon was very opposed to that view. He believed that all infants dying in infancy would be in heaven, not because they were pure and without the sin of Adam or anything like that, but he believed that they would be in heaven.
01:31:59: Dr. Al Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Seminary, believes that infants who die in infancy will all be in heaven, and there are others as well.
01:32:10: So tell us about your understanding of this. Okay, we're covering a lot of controversial ground today.
01:32:17: I have a whole chapter on this in my book. Most of us have known someone that has lost a baby, miscarriage, stillbirth, then of course there's abortion, sudden infant death syndrome, or when the expected mother dies, the baby will die.
01:32:34: Some people say we don't know because the scripture does not directly address it. I believe it does, and we'll get to that in a minute.
01:32:42: Other ones will say all of them are lost. Then you'll get, say, the
01:32:47: Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church that says baptized babies make it to heaven, unbaptized ones do not.
01:32:55: They go to hell. That was also Augustine's view. Some that are closer to the truth will say, well, only baptized babies or only babies of Christian parents will make it.
01:33:10: But I'm convinced that the majority view amongst Calvinists is that God has chosen all dying infants to go to heaven.
01:33:19: Jesus said in Matthew 19, do not forbid them of such as the kingdom of God.
01:33:25: And he's not talking about adolescents or teenagers, he's talking about infants. Luke uses a specific
01:33:31: Greek word that refers to a baby in the womb or a baby still being breastfed.
01:33:38: David's son died, and David had the conviction he will see him in heaven.
01:33:44: Job 3 and Ecclesiastes 6 indicate that it would be better to be dead than to be alive in a lost state, and talking about someone that died in infancy.
01:33:55: That could not be said if Job and Solomon did not believe that dying infants go to heaven.
01:34:02: A crucial point is what we would call the age of reason. I don't call it the age of accountability because we're born in sin.
01:34:10: The Bible teaches original sin. But it also teaches in Jonah 4, Deuteronomy 1, and especially
01:34:17: Isaiah 7, that there is an age of consciousness. When it's no longer an infant that has a sinful nature, now it is a child that has consciousness and can deliberately choose sin.
01:34:32: That's also the age at which he could choose to believe in Jesus. It seems to be tied in with this age of consciousness.
01:34:41: Before that, God has chosen dying infants to be saved. Beyond that, now they are accountable, and remember they are all born in sin.
01:34:51: Now, this age varies. Some would say, well, is it tied in with puberty between 11 and 15?
01:34:57: I'd put it much, much earlier than that. So it would be Scripture. It would also be the age at which a child can talk and understand what he is saying, and he can believe.
01:35:09: Some people, unfortunately, sadly, are permanently infants with the severe brain damage that they're born with, and they will never be more than a few months old mentally.
01:35:22: They would still be like an infant. Now, the question arises that says, well, if they're all dying infants are saved, then wouldn't that legitimatize abortion and infanticide?
01:35:35: No, because those are first -degree murder. Now, then another question is, well, doesn't it say that you can't make it to heaven without being born again and without believing?
01:35:48: Some would say, well, infants are capable of having an unconscious faith, but the way
01:35:54: I read Scripture is that faith requires a certain consciousness to believe and to agree.
01:36:00: There's much mystery in this. Some have suggested that perhaps the dying infant is given the gift of faith as it is dying, but the
01:36:11: Bible does not directly address that. But I think that there's enough in Scripture, comparing Scripture with Scripture, to say if dying infants are all saved and covered by the blood of Christ, then they are elect.
01:36:25: Here's what I've told the people. It seems to me that God has elected dying infants as a class to all be saved, just like he has reprobated all the fallen angels as a class.
01:36:42: But so far as humans beyond the age of reason, he has chosen some and not chosen others.
01:36:50: Lastly, Chris, before I turn it back over to you, God offers much comfort to grieving parents that have lost an infant, and I have comforted many.
01:36:59: There are several in our church that have lost a child in infancy or miscarriage, and they take comfort of Jesus's words, of such is the kingdom of heaven.
01:37:14: Perhaps that will be a comfort to some of your listeners. Amen. Well, I'm glad, I'm so very glad that you agree with me on this, but I was surprised to hear you say that you believe that the majority of Reformed people take this view.
01:37:30: In my own personal experience, which doesn't settle the issue, of course, most of the
01:37:36: Reformed folks that I have spoken to over the years about this have charged me with sentimentalism for believing that all infants would be in heaven.
01:37:45: Well, first off, I would direct them to take a good close look at what the
01:37:50: Westminster Standards say. The way that it is phrased does strongly imply, if not explicitly, state this.
01:37:59: And there have been some good studies on the Reformed view of this question. Now, of course,
01:38:05: I know many, especially Presbyterians, who believe that the children of Christians will certainly be in heaven.
01:38:15: And they say, we don't know about the others. Right, right. But I'd remind them, the great
01:38:22: Calvinists of the past, such as Charles Hodge, believed all dying infants are saved. Oh, great.
01:38:28: And it is interesting to me when they give the response to David knowing that he would return to his child, meaning after he died, that they say, oh, that just means the grave.
01:38:46: And I was thinking to myself, and I always think to myself, or even respond verbally to them, how could
01:38:52: David have found comfort in that? Yeah. He did not take comfort when
01:38:58: Absalom died lost. So David didn't take comfort with the baby. Some would say, well, it was circumcised.
01:39:05: No, the baby died on the sixth day. Infants were to be circumcised on the eighth day.
01:39:12: For a paid -a -Baptist brethren, I would say baptism is irrelevant to the issue, whether you believe in believer's baptism or infant baptism.
01:39:20: That's got no relevancy to the eternal state of dying infants. I think that the key that opens the question,
01:39:27: Chris, is election. God could have let them die and go to hell because they are born with original sin, and sin is damnable in an infant as well as an adult.
01:39:38: But God has graciously chosen, by his own sovereign grace, to choose dying infants as elect, and in heaven they will rejoice.
01:39:49: And we will see the parents will see their dying infants in heaven if the parents are Christian. So you see, there is great comfort in this.
01:39:56: I don't think it's sentimentalism. I think it's firmly biblically based. And again, it is the majority report amongst historic
01:40:05: Calvinists. Well, that's good to know. I'm glad that my experience has not revealed the truth of the matter in regarding the numeric support for infants being in heaven, all infants being in heaven after death.
01:40:23: Now, there are those that say, well, I just feel my baby is in heaven. Well, then what do you say to the parent that says,
01:40:30: I just feel my baby is in hell? Right. You'd have to say, well, we're sorry for your feelings, but let's see what the
01:40:38: Bible says, and that produces the true comfort. Amen.
01:40:43: Well, we have to go to our final break, and when we return, we're going to discuss the fate of the unevangelized.
01:40:52: And if anybody has a question of your own that you would like to ask, please send it in now before we run out of time.
01:41:01: It's chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com. And don't go away.
01:41:07: We're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors with more of Kurt Daniel and the history and theology of Calvinism.
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01:44:55: A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.
01:45:05: Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how He shall be worshiped and how
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01:45:24: God -centered focus. Reading, preaching, and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, baptism, and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy, and sobriety.
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01:46:04: Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. The coronavirus pandemic has rapidly changed our way of life, bringing so many uncertainties.
01:46:24: When will it end? Why do disasters like this happen? How do we deal with anxiety, fear, and the like?
01:46:31: Well, join us each Friday on the program Iron Sharpens Iron with your host, Chris Arnson, and Pastor Joe Jacobs as they explore
01:46:40: God's Word for answers to this and other of life's related issues. Tune in at firstloveradio .org.
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01:48:31: Welcome back, this is Chris Arnson, and we are discussing the History and Theology of Calvinism with Dr.
01:48:37: Kurt Daniel. This is the third of three interviews that we have conducted, and we are going to at least schedule one more.
01:48:48: And right now we are going to discuss the un -evangelized, the state of the un -evangelized, another very closely related controversial issue to the state of dying infants.
01:49:02: And if you could, Dr. Daniel, what about the state of the un -evangelized?
01:49:09: Okay, I have over 100 pages in my book on the doctrines of election and reprobation.
01:49:16: Then I give three chapters to hard cases. Number one, the election of angels. Well, let's set that aside, that's another issue.
01:49:24: We just talked about the election of dying infants. I believe all dying infants are elect, and they're safe in the arms of Jesus.
01:49:32: The third hard case is what's the bearing of election and reprobation to the question of those that never hear the gospel?
01:49:41: Not just, you know, in deep dark Africa or South America, but maybe the man down the street from you here in America that has never heard the gospel.
01:49:50: Here's a summary of what I believe the Bible clearly and repeatedly teaches, and it is the
01:49:55: Calvinistic view. Christ is the only way, and the only way we are saved by Christ is faith and repentance through the gospel.
01:50:07: Therefore, those that don't hear the gospel do not believe or repent, therefore they die lost, and that shows that they will reprobate and not elect.
01:50:19: First off, the Bible repeatedly says we're all guilty sinners. Romans 1, we know that there is a
01:50:25: God, the wrath of God is revealed against all unrighteous people. Romans 3, there is none righteous, all are sinners.
01:50:35: God condemns all people under the wrath of God, and that also applies to not just individual sinners, but false religions.
01:50:45: Hinduism, Canaanite worship, the Egyptians, Islam, God condemns all non -Christian religions as demonic.
01:50:55: First Corinthians 10, 21 says that they are not worshiping the true God, they are worshiping demons in disguise.
01:51:04: Now everybody should know John 14, 6, Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, the life.
01:51:10: No man comes to the Father but by me. He states it positively and then negatively. Acts 4, 12, there is salvation in no other name.
01:51:20: Jesus said he is the door, we believe, solus Christus, salvation by Christ alone.
01:51:27: Combine John 3, 16 and Luke 3, 13, we find out people will perish if they do not believe in Jesus, and if they do not repent of their sins.
01:51:38: The Bible talks about different roads. There are many roads that lead to hell, there is only one road that leads to heaven.
01:51:46: Now specifically on this question, Romans 10 says, how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?
01:51:52: And the answer is, they can't believe in someone they have never heard. It is impossible.
01:51:58: Faith has to have content. If the content is not there, there is not faith. And then verse 17 tells us explicitly, faith is given by the
01:52:07: Gospel through the Bible. Those that do not have the Bible or the Gospel do not have faith.
01:52:14: And without faith, it is impossible to please God. Without faith, a person cannot make it to heaven.
01:52:20: This is why we have to preach the Gospel to everybody. If there is another way or a second chance or anything, we don't have to send missionaries, we don't have to witness to the guy down the street.
01:52:32: But the Bible says we are commanded to preach the Gospel. Now there are various guesses people give.
01:52:38: There is one group of Calvinists called Primitive Baptists that does not believe in evangelism or missions, because they say
01:52:46: God can regenerate his elect directly without ever hearing the Gospel or hearing the
01:52:52: Bible. Problem is, that is not what the Bible says. The Bible is God's means of regenerating the elect.
01:52:59: Others that are liberal will say, well, there are anonymous Christians, that their search for truth and practice of another religion,
01:53:09: God will accept that as faith. That is not what the Bible teaches at all. God doesn't use dreams.
01:53:16: He may have done that in the Old Testament to talk to the prophets. But then there are other views.
01:53:22: People are grasping for something other than what the Bible says. They come up with Christian astrology.
01:53:28: D. James Candy believed in that. The Gospel is somehow in the stars. Virgo, that is the virgin birth.
01:53:35: And the lion, that is Jesus, the lion of the tribe of Judah. No. Christian astrology is like Christian adultery.
01:53:42: They are both forbidden. God doesn't put the Gospel in the stars. He certainly didn't put it in the pyramids, which is what a number of cults believe.
01:53:51: A few years ago, someone wrote a book saying that the Gospel is in the Chinese alphabet.
01:53:58: I even heard about somebody that thought that somehow the Gospel is revealed in the
01:54:03: DNA of frogs. So people are coming up with all sorts of weird views.
01:54:09: Why don't they read their own Bible? It's Christ alone through the Gospel alone. Now some will form this question, well, what about the innocent person who has never heard of Jesus?
01:54:19: Or what about the good Hindu? Jesus said there is none good but God. There is no innocent person, no noble savage.
01:54:28: We're all lost and guilty. Another popular view amongst evangelicals is this.
01:54:35: Since Christ died equally for everybody, the only reason God will condemn a person is if he hears the
01:54:41: Gospel and doesn't believe. Well, if a person hears and doesn't believe, he's going to be lost.
01:54:47: But this view suggests that's the only reason. Therefore, this would say those that never hear will all be saved because they haven't rejected
01:54:57: Christ consciously. Well, that's not what the Bible says. If that's true, then we shouldn't tell people the
01:55:03: Gospel because then they just might not believe in Jesus and be damned. Others are grasping and say, well, there's a second chance after death.
01:55:12: Not according to the Bible. According to the Bible, it's important that the man wants to die after that judgment.
01:55:19: Some will say, well, if dying infants are saved, what about these others? No, that's a different category.
01:55:25: We've already shown the Bible says that dying infants have not reached an age of reason. We're talking about non -Christians that have never heard past the age of reason and they're involved in pagan religions or atheism or something.
01:55:41: They're consciously sinners. We can very quickly dismiss theories that, well, everybody will be saved or the last will be burnt up and annihilated.
01:55:51: I have a whole chapter on that in my book. Those are false, very dangerous errors that have no place in evangelicalism.
01:56:00: The Bible does not teach universalism or annihilationism. The main objection,
01:56:06: Chris, comes down to this and it's objection against point after point after point of not only
01:56:12: Calvinism, but the Bible. They'll say it's not fair. It's not fair to condemn a person that's never heard of Jesus.
01:56:21: Quick answer is, what is unfair about God condemning a sinner?
01:56:27: They're guilty. Remember what I keep saying, Chris, remember the Bible says
01:56:32: God is holy and sovereign and we're guilty and lost.
01:56:38: We shouldn't complain. We should thank God that there is a way, only one way.
01:56:44: Now, if the unevangelized die lost, that shows that they were not elected. That's why
01:56:49: I put it in the book. The key to this is they are not elected. Now that God does have elect out there that haven't heard yet,
01:57:00: God will get the gospel to them. We should go into all the world and preach the gospel to your friends, relatives, strangers.
01:57:08: If they could be saved without the gospel, there's no need for missions or evangelism. Also, another positive note,
01:57:15: God has guaranteed that the elect will hear and will believe.
01:57:21: That gives us encouragement to go and tell people the gospel. Hallelujah, somebody's going to believe it.
01:57:28: God has guaranteed it. Well, Chris, I'll turn it back to you now. Maybe you'll have an email question for me.
01:57:36: Well, actually we're out of time. Okay. I'm glad that we are going to have a part four of this discussion and when we are off the air,
01:57:47: I will book that date with you. I want to thank you so much for being such an excellent guest as you always are.
01:57:54: I'm looking forward to many more interviews with you in the future. And don't forget, folks, if you want to find out more about Faith Bible Church in Springfield, Illinois, the website is faithbibleonline .net,
01:58:09: faithbibleonline .net. And we want to thank, once again, Evangelical Press, EP Books, for donating to us the copies of Dr.
01:58:20: Kurt Daniel's book that we have been giving away. And by the way, folks, we had enough for everyone who wrote in a question today.
01:58:28: So, if I did not tell you specifically that you won, if you wrote in a question, you did win.
01:58:34: And please make sure I have your full mailing address so that cvbbs .com,
01:58:40: Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, can ship these books out to you. And if you want to find out more about this book and all other
01:58:51: Evangelical Press books, go to epbooks .org, epbooks .org.
01:58:57: And keep in mind that one of the primary United States hubs, if you will, for distribution, sale and distribution of Evangelical Press books is cvbbs .com,
01:59:15: Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service. So, please, after you explore epbooks .org,
01:59:22: please make your purchases with our sponsors at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service at cvbbs .com.
01:59:29: I want to thank all of you who listened today, especially those who took the time to write in questions.
01:59:35: And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater