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May 11, 2020
Dr. CURT DANIEL,
author & pastor of Faith Bible Church of Springfield, Illinois, who will address: PART 3 of: “The HISTORY & THEOLOGY of CALVINISM”
Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 11th day of May, 2020, and I hope all of you moms out there had a really wonderful and blessed Mother's Day yesterday, and I sure do miss my mom who has been in eternity with Christ since 1995.
Well, I am thrilled to have back on the program for the third time Dr. Kurt Daniel, who is the author, who is a author and pastor of Faith Bible Church of Springfield, Illinois, and today we are going to be addressing Part 3 of his recent book, The History and Theology of Calvinism.
And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Kurt Daniel.
Thank you, Chris. Good to be back. I'm ready to do some iron sharpening iron.
Amen. Now, when I said this is a recent book, the actual manuscript has been around for quite a long time, correct?
Yes, it began as a...
Great. Well, it's a beautiful 900-page hardback, and I think any red-blooded Calvinist would be delighted to have this as a part of their library, and hopefully a much-used part of their library. And as we always do, to remind our listeners who may have forgotten or to introduce your church to those hearing you for the first time, tell our listeners about Faith Bible Church of Springfield, Illinois.
I've been pastor before that.
Great. And if anybody wants more information on Faith Bible Church of Springfield, Illinois, you can go to faithbibleonline .net, faithbibleonline .net, and hopefully we'll remember to repeat that information later on in the program.
Well, we want to make sure that we delve into some unexplored territory that we haven't already covered in our previous two broadcasts on this same subject. And one of those very important subjects, which is also highly misunderstood, is the doctrine of reprobation, and that is something that Calvinists believe that is probably one of the things most despised by those who are opponents of Calvinism.
But if you could please define reprobation.
Reprobation would be the flip side of Calvinism. So it could be summed up as basically non-election. Reprobation means he did not choose. Like election, reprobation means it was a choice of God. It always comes to pass like election.
It's not a tentative or a contingent idea of reprobation. He was totally depraved. He didn't say impossible. He didn't say he was saved, and some Jews are not saved. Some Jews, but not all Jews. There are several examples, such as Jacob and Esau, these twin brothers.
So he says, Jacob of our love, he's elected by God because he's part of the foundation of the world. Then he gives another example, Pharaoh. Well, Moses of our love, Pharaoh hated. In loving and hating, they're referred to choosing some out of love and rejecting others.
Moses and others, but he did not choose Pharaoh. And again, he gives an illustration of he divides the lump, and out of one part, he makes a beautiful vase. For election, God shall, and they will contain his love.
The other part of the lump, they're sinful, and he molds them into a, Just remember, you are still a lump of clay, and you're guilty against God. So the clay, now there are other verses in the book. The elect, chapter 1, verse 3, is not appointed.
Christians, believers, the church, the elect will never believe in reprobation. We see this in the life of Jesus with his apostles. Eleven of them were elect. Judas was reprobate. He was not elect. He was never a believer.
I know whom I have chosen. He chose all the other apostles, like Judas. Well, give me some more verses. Matthew 5, Jesus prayed, hidden these things from some people, and have revealed them to others.
There's your division. Some, and Jesus revealed them to others. You go to the book of Revelation, you're going to read some verses that are contained. The names have not been written in the book of the world.
Back in eternity, God chose who will be written in. These are one great summary, Chris, and I can share some more, but I'll turn it back over to you now.
Well, I wanted to read chapter 3 of the London Baptist Confession on this issue, the 1689 London Baptist Confession, also known as the Second London Confession. Chapter 3, paragraph 3,. By the decree of God for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestined or ordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ to the praise of his glorious grace, others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation to the praise of his glorious justice.
And the confession cites 1 Timothy 5, verse 21, Matthew 25, verse 34, Ephesians 1, verses 5 and 6, Romans 9, verse 23, and Jude 4, I should say. The reason I brought that up is because some people who are not Calvinists wrongly equate our understanding of election versus reprobation or predestination versus reprobation as if we believe in equal ultimacy, that God, just as he has to divinely intervene when it comes to the predestination of men, he is doing something extra to man to make him reprobate.
In other words, man would not have been worthy of hell if it were not for God intervening in some way to make him worthy of hell. And that is the understanding that many have of our beliefs and therefore is one of the reasons they disdain what we believe because they're basically making out hell-bound sinners victims, as it were, or they're saying that we make them victims that don't really deserve hell in some sense.
Yes, they misunderstand. We would say that just as God saves some sinners back in eternity, he chose some sinners to be ordained, everything that could be sinners. Out of that foreordained humanity, God chose rejection.
He sets or predetermines the destiny and predestines the ultimate destiny, redemption for their sins. And then in time, God softens the heart of the elect, but he hardens the heart of the reprobate, hardening his men's twin destinies.
The elect go to heaven, the non-elect go to hell. Those that go to heaven can only thank God for the election. A blind God is something that theoretically God could have chosen everybody, but he didn't because some end up in hell.
Theoretically, God could have chosen nobody, but he did choose some because some end up in heaven. The answer in the Bible is God chose some but not the others. It says the rest, in other words, those that God passed over.
Excellent. And one of the key or a couple of the key words in Paragraph 3 of Chapter 3 of the London Baptist Confession regarding the reprobate is that others being left to act, and that's the key word there, being left to act in their sin, to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
God is, as it were, is passing them over to what they already are and leaving them the way they already are.
It would be like a governor choosing to pardon some criminals. Is that unjust to those that he did not choose to pardon? We're still talking about sinners. Remember, I keep saying the choice of some he did not choose.
It's like when God chose all these sons and some said, David, this is the one you have chosen. Just like when you get married, you're forsaking all others. If God chose some, that implies God did not choose others.
Now, there are some people who paint the picture that, well, this idea of election and reprobation, judgment day or maybe after someone dies, here's someone that wants to be saved. But maybe it's in this life, and he's lonely, he's guilty, and he comes and says, Jesus, save me, help.
And then Jesus says, sorry, bud, you're not one of the elected. That's not what we teach. Well, God goes and drags in someone that doesn't want to believe, doesn't repent, and makes them a Christian, like saying, sit down there and you'll be happy.
This is not what we teach. God works on the elect in such a way they willingly come and believe. They're not asking to be saved. They do not want to be. That idea that people hear all the objections, it's God.
We cannot blame God any more than a convicted criminal. Unfair in election and reprobation just shows how bad man is. It does not. God didn't choose someone because he's better and reject someone because he's worse.
Often God has chosen people that are the worst of sinners.
That's right, soul of Tarsus.
Yeah, a good case could be made that Jacob was worse than Esau. Jacob, if I love Esau, I hate Esau. He showed saving mercy.
I was just going to say it's ironic that those who believe there is a hell and believe that Jesus is the only way to salvation, but who are not Calvinists or theologically reformed, when they point the finger of our understanding of God being unfair, how is it fair in a human definition or understanding of fairness that there are children born in the Middle East in militant Muslim families, and if they were to, when they grow up, express their faith in Jesus Christ, they might be, and most likely would, be executed.
And you have some children born in the Bible belt to loving, nurturing Christian parents. And you have some other children who are born the children of crack addicts and all kinds of criminals and so on, where they're never going to hear the gospel.
How is this an equal playing field? How is this a demonstration of fairness when they all, all these children, have to believe upon the name of Christ in order to be saved, and yet they're not starting at the same starting point.
Their journeys are going to be very different and much more difficult depending upon where you happen to be born. So their argument for fairness really falls flat on its face.
Yeah. We're all born sinners.
Exactly.
Later we can talk about when people ask, well, doesn't the Bible say that you're the gospel to break commission? We warn them. Also teaches, not a contradiction, because it's not the same kind of desire.
So God, we're not saying that we shouldn't pray for both equally. You can know if he's elect. Brethren, give all diligence to make your calling and elections. Reprobate, because he might be an unbeliever today.
He might be a believer tomorrow. And that just proves very, very cautious about pronouncing anybody to be reprobate. He might die at the last, he might convert.
And there have been even serial killers on death row who have become Christians or life in prison as well.
Well, I've had inmates write to me. We can thank God that he has chosen us.
Amen. Well, we have a listener in Cork, Ireland who has a question. Mary says, Hello, Dr. Daniel and Chris. I have a question for you. Please explain to me that if God has predetermined some for destruction, why does he say that he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked?
In Ezekiel 18, verse 23, Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the sovereign Lord? Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? And the scripture in 2 Peter, chapter 3, verse 9, The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness.
Instead, he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. Why would he call for repentance if the person is already predetermined for destruction? And how can these views be reconciled?
Well, there are several other verses, also verse 4, and there's a few others I just said. God does desire people to be grieved and angered when they die. Contradicting that, is it in eternity in a different way God has chosen?
We cannot be saved and be grieved when they die lost.
And where she says, let's see here, Why would he call for repentance if the person is already predetermined for destruction? Well, the call to repent comes from his word, of course, but most often through us, through his children, Christians, who are preaching and evangelizing and declaring the word, and we do not know who the elect are or the reprobate.
I mean, we have an idea of who the elect are after they're saved, but while they are in a lost condition, we have no idea who the elect are. And we are to preach the same gospel and the same call to repentance to every living soul.
And in fact, isn't this one of the things that divides some of the hyper-Calvinists from genuine Calvinists? And I believe this was a main point in Spurgeon's day with the hyper-Calvinists that they attacked Spurgeon over, is that Spurgeon believed that even the reprobate are duty-bound to repent and believe, whereas many hyper-Calvinists do not believe that.
Yes, I've studied hyper-Calvinism. God does not desire the reprobate. That is not true Calvinism. True Calvinism says, the Bible clearly says, salvation, God, commandment, duty-bound to believe in Jesus.
That is historic Calvinism of the Bible. Fortunately, hyper-Calvinism is in a very, very... Many of you listeners have even met a true Calvinist.
But there is, unfortunately, if you're on the internet long enough, there is a growing number of hyper-Calvinists that have come out from being hidden in obscurity. There are a growing number of them.
There's still a tiny minority.
They do tend to be a little bit... Nominations that are very small. Free offer. They're very small.
Oh, great. Well, I can't wait for that to come out, and I'd love to interview you on that, obviously. We have to go to our first break right now. If anybody else would like to join us with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.
C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages with more of Kurt Daniel and the history and theology of Calvinism.
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I'm Dr. Tony Costa, professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love, Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.
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Welcome back, this is Chris Armisen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours is Dr. Kurt Daniel. This is part three of a series of interviews we've begun a little while ago on his book, The History and Theology of Calvinism.
If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarmisen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. And as always, please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.
Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter. And we have Ted in Moundville, Alabama who says,. A significant number of Presbyterians and members of other Reformed denominations argue that the term Reformed Baptist is an oxymoron.
To wit, our own Dr. James White has been denied his Reformed Baptist identity by none other than Dr. R. Scott Clark who appears to be on the faculty at Westminster Theological Seminary. So if you could, please explain this situation.
Well Chris, there's unity in the Reformed or legitimate Calvinists that are Believers Baptists. John Bunyan, who wrote certain books, some people are not aware that he changed on baptism. You look at church unity and diversity, they're still part of it.
Yes, it's really an absurd thing to point out, an unnecessary thing to point out, as if these folks who are making these derogatory remarks have a sole claim to what the word Reformed means. And what makes it even more ridiculous is that the London Baptist Confession of Faith is nearly identical to the Westminster Confession.
So to act as if there is nothing Reformed about a confessionally Calvinist Baptist is ridiculous. And the follow-up question that Ted from Moundville, Alabama, has asked, in the early years of our country's history, Baptists were overwhelmingly Calvinistic in their soteriology, if not also in their ecclesiology.
Now the reverse seems to be true, notwithstanding the fact that Calvinistic Baptists have a very high profile in seminaries, publishing and social media. My question is, what happened? What caused this transformation among U .S. Baptists, and to some extent, among Baptists in the broader English-speaking world?
Up until about the year 1900, probably most Baptists, by points, are the founders of the Southerners, especially James, the great A .T. Robbins. About the year 1900, it began to shift. Edgar Mullins, Arminianism became them.
Today, in the minority, Founders' Minutes. These want to read this. You could also find Calvinism in other Baptist groups, except the Free Arminian. I'm glad to see that there's definitely a resurgence, and some of the most well-known.
To ask a little question of my own about this, the majority, if not all, of the Ivy League schools were started, were built upon Puritan theology, Reformed theology. And how did that collapse into apostate leftism and liberalism?
It was the same as Arminianism, to reject Calvinism and to lean toward liberalism, opponents of liberalism.
Yes, and the Arminian fundamentalist brethren that we have typically do not call themselves Arminian, no.
Well, a few do, but most don't. But we would agree with them that those are dangerous apologists.
So historically, before the collapse of the Ivy League schools into apostasy, you're saying it didn't go straight from Reformed theology to apostasy. It was... The Calvinists surrendered to Arminianism.
And liberalism, yes. By the way, it's founded Princeton.
Amen. Well, before we go to our midway break, I want you to at least define our next topic, the regulative principle, or as you pronounce it, regulative. And this is something that separates even fellow Reformed Christians.
You might even have Reformed Christians on the same pew disagree on this, but it's typically churches that disagree with one another. I think that... I could be wrong, but I think that predominantly Reformed churches in the United States and perhaps worldwide believe in the regulative principle.
But there still are some dissenting voices, and even some from very conservative Reformed Christians. But if you could define this for us.
It has to do with worship wars. And the answer is with the regulative principle. God regulates. He lays down the boundaries and the regulations. The principle. Mainstream does. You can talk about this after the break.
It's God's way.
Okay, great. We are going to go to our midway break and continue the discussion on the regulative principle. And if you have any questions, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Chrisarnson at gmail dot com.
And please, as always, give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. And only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
Oh, and I forgot to tell our friend Ted in Moundville, Alabama, I believe. I can't remember now the state that Ted was in. I just had his question in front of me. But I believe it's Alabama. Moundville, Alabama.
You have won a free copy of Kurt Daniels' 900-page hardback, The History and Theology of Calvinism. So please give us your full mailing address in Moundville. And we are going to be back after this break.
And keep in mind, folks, this is our longer than normal break. Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida, 90 .1 FM, Lake City, Florida. They air this program twice a day, once in morning drive time and once in the evening in a pre-recorded fashion.
And they require the middle of our show to air public service announcements and other things that localize Iron Sharp and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida. So while they air those messages, we air our globally heard commercials.
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James White of Alpha Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line. Webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new, beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York.
I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my New York debates.
I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the Holy Scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.
I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram.
For their recent appointment.
Of Pastor Rich Jensen's co-elder, Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net. That's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711. That's 631 -696 -5711.
Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
The coronavirus pandemic has rapidly changed our way of life, bringing so many uncertainties. When will it end? Why do disasters like this happen? How do we deal with anxiety, fear, and the like? Well, join us each Friday on the program Iron Sharpens Iron with your host, Chris Arnzen, and Pastor Joe Jacowicz as they explore God's Word for answers to this and other of life's related issues.
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Before I return to Dr. Kurt Daniel, I just have a couple of announcements to make. First of all, one very important, very serious announcement I need to make is in regard to our new sponsor here on Iron Trap and Zion Radio, Bhanu Gadi, owner of three New York pharmacies, Lee's Drugs of Floral Park, Long Beach Chemists, and Prescription Center of Long Island in Hempstead.
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Chrisarnson at gmail dot com. We are discussing his book The History and Theology of Calvinism and we already had you defined the regulative principle which you call the regulative principle. If you could continue on that theme one of the things I wanted to mention is that the regulative principle is contrasted typically with the normative principle where it seems that the regulative principle will view the silences the areas of silence in the scripture when it comes to worship as a prohibition where the normative principle will view the silence as a license for permission.
So if you could go through the contrast of those two two understandings of worship.
Yes, Chris. God's forbidden in the Bible then it's permissible. Well, we've always done that. Let's do the latest. It's changed from being God's entertainment. Union, baptism, scripture reading to be done by the Bible.
Examples. We find principles such as in the Ten Commandments to or subtract from God's way. It's only what is commanded not just what is explicitly forbidden. There's a significant difference because the Bible doesn't forbid this.
The Bible doesn't forbid a preacher riding a horse down the aisle and that has happened in church in Dallas that had a Christmas pageant and had elephants riding down the aisle. It doesn't forbid the things but the little sex the Ark and God says you don't touch it.
David had put the Ark. No, the Ark belongs on the shoulders of the Levites so God gives us the form and of course there's freedom within the form like he says sing unto the Lord and we can choose different kinds of hymns.
And only biblical any unbiblical word even if it's something that's not wrong in itself in another context. You can do that maybe at home but not in the worship of God otherwise now one extreme of this would be sarcomentalism to the other one a pseudo-worship.
What's wrong with this? Well, the Bible says there's an order there's a certain truth you could contrast that with very few non-calendars.
I know that as I was saying earlier there is division not only amongst Reformed brethren over whether or not to adhere to the regulative principle but even those that do adhere to it sometimes disagree.
For instance as you probably well know that our brethren in the Covenanter Presbyterian Church the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America and the Reformed Presbyterian Church over in Europe they are exclusive psalm singers and also worship exclusively acapella without musical instrumentation and they would say that that we if we have musical instruments in our church and we sing extra-biblical hymns they would say that we are in violation of the regulative principle.
How do you respond to that?
There's a very biblical answer to that, Chris.
Okay.
I wonder what they do when they sing acapella Psalm 150 where almost every there's a biblical psalms only those are two biblical places.
Now the regulative principle as far as I remember restricts us to include in worship only things that are in the New Testament. They may be also in the Old Testament but they can't be exclusively in the Old Testament.
Am I right on that?
Yes, there are certain things in the Old that we don't do.
Well, maybe in your church you don't. I'm only kidding.
I would be surprised.
Okay. We do have let's see here we have an anonymous listener who says how do you answer a friend who will tell you that they justify having dancing during their worship services because in 2 Samuel 6 we read that David danced before the Lord with all his might.
So how do you answer that? I've heard that very same thing myself. Yes. Well, that also goes back to what we just said about the commandment has to be in the New Testament.
It's not repeated in the New. I wouldn't have with anything in worship we need to. We could also say what about speaking in tongues and some of the extraordinary gifts? Aren't those to be done in the Worship 14?
I'd say yes when those were valid. But in my opinion the extraordinary gifts were temporary in the New Testament. It does not match with the other things.
Well, thank you Anonymous. And if you please email me your full name and your full address obviously we will not reveal this information on the air. You will receive a free copy of The History and Theology of Calvinism by our guest Dr. Kurt Daniel beautiful 900 page hardback.
Compliments of our friends at Evangelical Press and also compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service cvbbs .com who will actually be the ones that ship the book out to you. So thank you very much for the excellent question.
The other thing that you were mentioning before in regard to images being forbidden.
Yes.
And we do have a listener who wants to ask about that as well. We have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County Long Island, New York who says. One of the things that I can't understand is why many Reformed Christians forbid pictures of Jesus if they are not being worshipped.
Because of the fact that it seems to me that if we were to take the command that we cannot have images at all of Jesus that would mean that we would have to prohibit even having statues or paintings of birds and fish and animals because the commandment also prohibits those but they are tied in with bowing down to and worshipping these things.
If they are not being bowed down to they seem to be harmless pieces of artwork that are completely allowable in modern day homes.
The problem is for a Greek Orthodox the Ten Commandments is not just forbidden of pagan gods but of the one true God and God forbids that of any or all of the three persons of the Trinity the Father. Of course everybody accepts it and there are a few Catholics that have reservations and say what's wrong with using pictures.
Because God is invisible. He is the Spirit. It's a command because we don't have any legitimate pictures of Jesus. That's what I keep reminding people of and I say that's not true imagination or he had not Jesus.
Their worship is this and she doesn't happen to have any pictures of him. So she writes him a letter and says I want to took a picture of the man that stood on a pole and I'll pretend I'm sleeping with you.
How do you think John's going to respond to that? He's going to say that's not true. So that is not a true picture it's imagination or it's a mouthful. By the way this applies pictures do not truly help.
Catholic Church says they are aids for the for bad them from God does allow the communion elements which we can see but those are not pictures. Jesus said worship him. Have you noticed that the Bible doesn't even give us a physical description of Jesus but it doesn't give us an arid for artists.
In fact every movie or TV program or even if you want to go beyond that the vast majority of paintings and drawings as well of Jesus he's extremely handsome. And that actually violates one of the few things that that is in Scripture in describing him that he was not comely that men might be drawn to him.
In other words he wasn't handsome.
Back to the email question. In the temple that was the ark of the covenant what about the Holy Spirit as a dove should only use beyond that idolatry God's way God will be pleased.
Well I think what the and if the listener can send in another email we can clarify this in the Ten Commandments in Exodus chapter 20 we read starting in verse 3. You shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath. You shall not bow down to them or worship them. So I'm assuming what the listener was saying was that the idol part the fact that these are identified as idols and we are not to bow down to them and worship them is the key factor because as you just said even though this this command is telling us not to make an image of anything in heaven or on earth or in the sea we can.
Rightly.
Have pictures of birds and animals and fish in our home.
In the same way we worship God. The pagans and the prophets were of animals like we shouldn't bring. When you do these things it's appealing to the flesh the lust of the eyes and of the ears and things like that.
It's not spirit worship. This is more important than a lot of people mostly to the Bible.
Well I think we should move on before we go to our final break to a very controversial issue again. This not only divides reformed from non-reformed but it divides reformed people from one another who disagree over this.
Dying infants. The state of infants who die while in infancy. There are many if not most reformed folk who would insist that you must take an agnostic position on their eternal state if they are actually infants when they die and can't make any kind of profession of repentance and faith you have to basically leave it in God's hands.
We don't really know whether they are in heaven or not. Our confession does mention that elect infants will be in heaven but we obviously don't know who are the elect infants when they die. But you have some.
Charles Adams Spurgeon was very opposed to that view. He believed that all infants dying in infancy would be in heaven not because they were pure and without the sin of Adam or anything like that but he believed that they would be in heaven.
Dr. Al Mohler president of the Southern Baptist Seminary believes that infants who die in infancy will all be in heaven. And there are others as well. So tell us about your understanding of this.
Ok crucial ground in my book mother dies. Some people say we don't know. Then you'll get. Say the Catholic Church and the Lutheran babies make it to heaven. Unbaptized baptized babies of Christian parents will make it.
But I'm convinced all dying in the kingdom of God who are maybe in the womb or in heaven would be dead than to be alive died in infancy. That could not be said if Joe's accountability was conscious now.
That has been deliberately tied in with this. Before that God has chosen dying infants to be saved beyond that. Now they are accountable and remember they are all born in sin. Now this age varies. Some would say well is it tied in with puberty.
Put it much much talking under all dying. Wouldn't that legitimatize abortion. Much mystery in this. The Bible does not directly address that. But I think dying infants.
Amen.
Well I'm glad.
I'm so very glad that you agree with me on this but I was surprised to hear you say that you believe that the majority of reformed people take this view in my own personal experience which doesn't settle the issue.
Of course.
Most of the reformed folks that I have spoken to over the years about this have charged me with sentimentalism for believing that all infants would be in heaven.
Well first off I would direct them to the way that it is framed.
Now of course I know many especially Presbyterians who believe that the children of Christians will certainly be in heaven but.
And they say we don't know about the others.
Right.
But Greg Calvin. Oh great.
And it is interesting to me when they give the response to David knowing that he would return to his child meaning.
But God has graciously chose. See they're dying in. Please see there is great comfort in this. I don't think it's sentimental. And again it is the majority.
Well that's good to know. I'm glad that my experience has not revealed the truth of the matter in regarding.
The.
Numeric support for infants being in heaven. All infants being in heaven after death.
Now there are those that say well I just feel my baby is in heaven. Well then what do you say to that. Baby is in heaven that produces the true comfort.
Amen. Well we have to go to our final break and when we return we're going to discuss the fate of the unevangelized. And if anybody has a question of your own that you would like to ask please send it in now before we run out of time.
It's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. And don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors with more of kurt daniel and the history and theology of calvinism.
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Welcome back. This is chris arnzen and we are discussing the history and theology of calvinism with dr kurt daniel. This is the third of of three interviews that we have conducted and we are going to at least schedule one more and right now we are going to discuss the unevangelized.
The state of the unevangelized another very closely related controversial issue to the state of dying infants. And if you could dr daniel what about the state of the unevangelized. Okay.
My book on the doctrines of election and reprobation. Then i give three chapters to hard cases. Number one the election of angels. Well let's set that aside. That's another issue. We just talked about the election of dying infants.
Hard for probation to the question of those that never hear the gospel. Not just you know in deep dark on the street from you. This is the only one by christ is faith and repentance through the gospel.
Hear the gospel. These centers that there is a god. The wrath of god is revealed. Not also applying negatively by their name. We find out people will perish if they do not believe in jesus and if they do not repent of their sins.
Bible talks about different roads. There are many roads that lead to hell. There's only one road that leads to heaven. How should they believe. They can't believe in someone. Impossible team tells us explicitly faith is given by the gospel through the bible blow the gospel.
This is why we have to preach the gospel to everybody. If there's another way or a second of another religion god will accept that as teachers at all. God doesn't use drain on that in the old testament.
But then there are other views. People are grasping for something other than what the bible christian astrology d .james candy believed in that the gospel is somehow in the circle. That's the verse. That's g-bed.
And god doesn't put the gospel in the stars. He certainly didn't put it in somebody that thought dna of frogs. So people are coming up with all sorts of weird views. Why don't they read their own bible.
Some will form this question. Well what about the innocent person who's never heard of jesus. Well what about the good hindu jesus said. There's none side. Equally for everybody the only reason god will condemn a person is if he hears the gospel and doesn't believe.
Well if a person believe here isn't doesn't believe he's going to be lost. But this view suggests that's the only reason be saved because they haven't rejected. We shouldn't tell people the gospel. Because then they just might not believe in jesus and be down.
So. Well there's a second bible for dying infants are saved. What about these others. No that's that's a different category. Not reach an age of reason. We're talking about um non-christians that have never heard that are past the age of re consciously evangelicalism.
The bible does not teach an objection. Chris comes down to this thank god that there is a way. Only one way. The key to this is does have elect out there yet strangers about the gospel. There's also another party that the elect that gives us encouragement to go and tell people the gospel.
But chris i'll turn it back to you. Now maybe you'll have a uh an email a question for me. Well.
Actually we're out of time okay and i'm glad that we are going to have a part four of this discussion. And uh when we are off the air i will book that date with you. I want to thank you so much for being such an excellent guest as you always are looking forward to many more interviews with you in the future.
And don't forget folks if you want to find out more about faith bible church in springfield illinois. The website is faith bible online net faith bible online net. And we want to thank once again evangelical press ep books for donating to us the copies of dr kurt daniels book that we have been giving away.
And by the way folks we had enough for everyone who wrote in a question today. So if i did not tell you specifically that you won. If you wrote in a question you did win. And please make sure i have your full mailing address so that cvbbs .com cumberland valley bible book service can ship these books out to you.
And if you want to find out more about this book and all other evangelical press books go to ep books dot org ep books dot org. And keep in mind that the one of the primary united states hubs if you will.
For distribution sale and distribution of evangelical press books is cvbbs .com cumberland valley bible book service. So please after you explore ep books dot org please make your purchases with our sponsors at cumberland valley bible book service at cvbbs .com i want to thank all of you who listened today especially those who took the time to write in questions.
And i want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far far greater savior than you are a sinner.