The Concern Continues to Flow - Apologia Radio Interview w/Dr. Sandlin - Part 2

All right everybody welcome back to the channel. We are going to continue the episodes regarding Apologia Radio, Bronze Age Masculinity with Andrew Sandlin. Now if you remember last time we ended up he was starting to talk about how there's some kind of a connection between you know the racism out there and I'm not talking like racism.

We're talking like the real racism you know what I mean like the really really real racism and antisemitism. And all these guys out there talking about masculinity you know what I mean it's it's not that they're logically connected but but you know there's a connection and Andrew Sandlin wants you to know that.

And it's just really funny because you know the the racism thing you know it's the new thing. What what you do is you say you know I understand that racism doesn't really mean anything but these are real racists.

They're like the real kind of racism and I always find that to be a very funny way to argue. And then of course there's no connection really between the two but this is just more mudslinging. You know all those guys out there if there's a Christian guy out there they're talking about masculinity.

Pay attention because they're also racist. And I'm not just talking racist. I'm talking really really racist like for real for real like the real kind of racism and antisemitism. That's what they are.

So if you if you're hearing the masculinity talk all that masculinity talk those guys those are the really real real racists. All right. Let's just jump in. Enough.

Enough preamble let's go let's do it. Um I would say guys this is dangerous stuff. So oh yeah they often talk about red pilling and if you'll think about it uh and I whenever I criticize that people will really strongly push back.

But we all oppose. Or at least I hope we all oppose. Wokeness. Well what is wokeness. Why is it called woke. Well originally it goes back to the african-american community and how a number of them became leftist.

Because we kind of woke up one day to the fact that we're oppressed. We're systemically oppressed in this white society because the whites basically control everything. And yeah we're not physically slaves but we're kind of slaves because we're held down by this systemic white oppression.

Yeah it's it's that's but the the quote right-wing version of this of course is red pilling which comes of course from the movie matrix and neo and so on. I won't go into that but we took the red pill.

Now we're awoke to this thing that that these these leftists have controlled culture and the women have controlled culture and the old fat guys have controlled culture. Well it's basically sort of the right wing version of wokeness and that's why some people are correct I believe to call a lot of it right wing wokeness this sort of red pilling.

What's the biblical answer. Well we do have all.

Wokeness, Red-Pilling, and Regeneration

Right. All right. Yeah. Because because this is the thing like you know how you know you're right wing woke. You're like woke woke. Right. If uh you understand that feminism has been a driving force in the last few decades that's totally woke woke.

Right. You know what I mean. Yeah feminism. You know you start talking about the gynocracy. Well then you know that's just that's just another false idea right. That's just just wokeness. This is that's just wokeness again.

Oh man you just love.

It you just gotta love it. This is obvious. We're gonna even use the language red telling our wokeness genuine. In the christian faith it's called regeneration. We're awakened from our spiritual death by the spirit of god that awakens us to read and understand god and the word of god.

And the truth of the gospel. Yeah regeneration. Yeah regeneration let's just call it regeneration. Right. Yeah listen guys I hate to break it to you but and when I say I hate to break it to you I love to break it to you I love to break it to you.

But um you know everything is not theology like we don't have to be theology. You know specific like dead dead-on balls accurate theology and every topic for everything. Right. Like you know we don't have people.

Just this is this is another problem that I think we're having. You know there's a lot of problems and I'm going to tell you all about them in a nice way. But man one of the other problems is like we could just be regular people and have regular conversations.

And it's okay if people want to talk about red pills white pills black pills yellow pills whatever. That's okay. You know people can talk about things in regular ways. We don't have to nerdify everything.

When we're talking about red pilling we're actually not talking about regeneration. You know what I mean not everything is systematic theology. Obviously we could be talking about two different things.

Right. So red pilling is when someone says I've taken the red pill. What they're not saying is that I'm being regenerated but regenerated by the holy spirit. They're saying something else and so we don't have to just reject something else because it's not the it's not theology.

It's not systematic theology. So I have to reject it. It's just preposterous. This is we're not talking about that right now we talk about the things we talk about and with other things we don't talk about.

We don't talk about them. It's amazing. It's amazing. It reminds me of sometimes when people criticize uh my some of my videos. Right. Some people will criticize my videos and they'll say something like this and they probably feel so pious when they say it.

They feel so superior and pious and they'll say something like this ad yet another video of yours that does not mention scripture. And i'm like dude like i put i put videos out on the topics. I'm interested.

You know what. Sometimes that involves scripture. In other times it's about a different topic. And you know what. That's okay. Not everything in life is systematic theology. We all get it. You're very interested in systematic theology.

Hats off to you. But guess what. I like the systematic theology too but i've got other interests and i got other things that i talk about and i don't have to bring every conversation i've ever had in my entire freaking life into systematic theology i don't do that.

Sometimes i just want to talk about baseball. Is that okay. Can i just talk about baseball. Man. Oh is this called regeneration. We're not talking about that right now when we talk about regeneration let's.

Talk about it but we're talking about red pill in here. Nothing to do with this racism and uh this sort of pagan notion on the on the right or the sort of systemic racism and nonsense on the left.

A pox on both their houses. Yeah pox. Rhino. Paleo valley is offering an amazing sale on these beef.

Sticks. You can get 30 beef sticks for 30 beef sticks. Speaking about beef sticks actually. Oh did i freeze it. Oh no. Oh no. Speaking of beef sticks let me uh let me do something real quick. Stand by this great company farmer bills.

Farmer bills provisions .com the guy who runs farmer bills sent me let's uh go ahead as a pop-up sent me a sample of this thing called biltong. Biltong is like this meat snack that's sort of like uh sort of like jerky but way better.

And i gotta be honest with you it is way better than jerky biltong is. Uh it's it's like a preserved uh meat. So it's similar to jerky in that way. And it's cured and all this kind of stuff. But it's as you can see in the picture it's got like these.

It's got like this fat in it that is just oh man that's one thing that's a problem with jerky. It's very very dry right. The biltong. I mean there's a dryness to it of course because it's preserved but it's got this.

It's got moisture and it's got these fat you know marbling in it and it is so unbelievably good. It is by far the best meat snack that i've ever had. And he provided it to me for free just to see what my thoughts were and stuff like that.

Um but i highly highly recommend it if you've never tried biltong this stuff is so good. Apparently it's seed oil free. I didn't know that seed oil gluten-free. Sugar-free. No added nitrates. I mean all this sounds great to me.

This is all scientific and i have no idea but it's packed with protein. And we're talking about protein since we're talking about all this very dangerous bronze age paganism about getting healthy. But man i gotta say i i'm already planning my next order.

Um and in fact it's my first order since i got this for free. But farmerbillsprovisions .com check it out. This is absolutely fantastic. It is like the it's again it's similar to jerky. The best jerky i've ever had.

It's not even jerky but whatever anyway let's.

Continue let's continue. I'm having to block people in the chat because of what we're talking about. When you're just mocking it's just getting take out take a hike um say so i don't want one more.

Thing i don't want to turn you loose but you can see luke is starting to get triggered. He's having to block people in the chat. You know what i mean. And uh i mean you know if that's how you want to spend your time go for it.

Uh i i when i see things in the chat that i don't like you know what i do. I just move on with my life. I just continue to just do whatever it is i was doing already. And they let them just scream into the void.

It is totally okay. Just to ignore them. That's what i would recommend luke. You know if you get so triggered by this stuff i would suggest just practicing something that's a beautiful superpower that is amazing to have on the internet is necessary.

Sometimes on the internet just ignore people. Let them scream into the void. Let them think that they're you know the smartest people around and all of that. Don't let them trigger you. Man. It's not worth it.

Look we've all been triggered on the internet before. And i have to admit i've been triggered on the internet before. But a good practice a good you know discipline in your life is to avoid getting triggered on the internet.

It doesn't do you any good. It doesn't help you. And it doesn't make you look good. When you announce it to everybody i cannot abide this. And i am blocking people. Look at how many people i blocked i blocked a lot of people today.

And look at how all my eyes cannot abide this kind of language and mockery it just doesn't make you. It doesn't do anything for you. It doesn't do anything for you. That's my suggestion to you.

Natural Law, Scripture, and Political Engagement

Pastor pearson bye. I keep coming back to this natural law. It seems like there is an emphasis in particular regards to our political theory and our development of our political engagement and ethics to emphasize this perhaps over and against scripture is the ultimate foundation for the authority that a christian wields.

You know we go before civil magistrates all the time in regards to protecting the unborn. And what we're giving magistrates is the word of god and we're calling them to repent in terms of obeying that law.

Just like if we go out on the streets and we're trying to reach unbelievers with evangelism. You mentioned regeneration. Right. God spirit opening the eyes giving new sight giving a new heart. And that happens through the proclamation of the word and the gospel.

And so it seems like there is a tendency to de-emphasize the role of the word of god and the primacy of the word of god and the potency of the proclamation of the truth in terms of political engagement in favor of these natural law theories.

And by natural law we wouldn't mean of course god's word speaking at creation. Right. That scripture distinguishes. We have the unscripturated word of god in the pages of revelation divine revelation.

And then we have god's word spoken and creation is an instantiation of that word. So we would distinguish between those two. But i do see that there is sort of a tendency now to where i wouldn't accuse any reform brothers of saying scripture is not sufficient.

I know they would affirm that with all of their hearts but practically outworking this and seeing the way that the political realm.

Is being engaged. It does concern me a bit interesting. Uh i mean again i can't tell you what he actually knows or what he actually is seeing. Um he says he's seen. And he kind of hedges i'll give him credit.

He kind of hedges and says i wouldn't say reformed christians are doing this so good on him. Uh because i wouldn't say that either. But what he is saying is if he's not talking about reformed christians he's talking about i i would assume some christians because obviously non-christians wouldn't refer to the law of god to you know to talk to the magistrate or whatever.

So he's obviously some christians are doing this. It's not reformed christians. Because you know he wouldn't say that. Um but i gotta be honest i just don't see what he's seeing. I just don't um and so you know maybe he can explain further.

And you know if you if you're interested in what he has to say he seems like a reasonable guy to me. So uh you could ask him. I'm sure. And he i'm sure he'd answer. But i don't see what he's seen. Um what i do see though is uh people that of course uh look at the sufficiency of scripture.

They believe in it. They would absolutely quote the scriptures to a magistrate. But they also don't deny god speaking in creation. Because you don't you. You don't actually like listen. We are blessed beyond measure to have god's words to us.

Nobody would deny that god has given us his word he has spoken in a clear and an authoritative way in us in a situation where it was written down by men carried along by the holy spirit chosen men carried along by the holy spirit inspired by the holy spirit to write down his very words.

We are so blessed to have that right. We are so blessed let me say it again we are blessed to have the word of god right. But you actually don't need the word of god to know for a fact that it is wrong to kill babies.

You actually don't need the word of god to know that for a fact because god has spoken also in what he has made right. And so we're blessed beyond measure to have it in black and white. We could read it.

We can uh we can announce it we can proclaim it. And it's there and it's perfect. And it's wonderful absolutely wonderful. But every single person without exception is without excuse even if they've never read those words even if they've never heard those words even if nobody has proclaimed it to them they are aware that it is not okay to kill babies.

They have no excuse because god has made them know. They know. And so people are are also proclaiming uh god's authority in nature in the natural law in creation and what he has made and how he has made it and how he has made men and women differently in all of these areas.

It applies to everything right. It applies to everything. And so we don't need an exhaustive revealed word to know certain things about men and women because god has written it into creation itself and we can discover it.

And we can know it. And it's and it's there. It's absolutely there. And so i don't see what he's saying. I don't see people that are kind of saying well the word of it's not down here. And you know nature's up here.

No no no that's not what i see. What i do see though is many theonomists of which i am one of them are saying look we've got this revealed law and that's great. But we also need what god has created and written into nature itself into the code of nature itself.

We can also utilize that and it's effective. And look god spoke both ways and it's just as authoritative in what he has made and how he has made and and what's he what's he revealed to us through his creation.

It's just as authoritative and it might be harder to discover it might be harder to interpret. I'm not going to deny that necessarily but it's just as authoritative. That's what i do see. And i don't think that that diminishes the word of god at all.

That's a weird way to look at it like it's this zero-sum game where it's like there's only so much that that natural law and and revealed law can have. And so if you if you elevate revealed law you must necessarily downgrade god's law.

I don't think it works that way. It's not like this zero-sum game. I think we should elevate both of these things both of these things are necessary. And look i've changed over time on this because again i was a theonomist and i i would argue i still am i still am a theonomist but but at the same time um i don't think it's a zero-sum game where you must if you're talking about natural law and appealing to natural law you must out of necessity be denigrating the revealed law.

I don't think it works that way. Yeah. And i've got a theory about.

Natural Law, Theonomy, and the Sufficiency of Scripture

That and i'm not speaking of natural law scholars. Roman catholics are strong in a natural law. I disagree with them strongly on this point but i'm not saying they're in this category. In this category i'm referring to some whom when they bring up these various uh ideas racist ideas these other pagan ideas i'll point to the scriptures where did paul or jesus say that.

And they will say they will say well we need to go by nature also. Uh now i think the reason that.

They know andrew uh dr sandlin dr sandlin um i would i would i would be much more willing to take your word for it. Um if you hadn't said what you said prior so we got to take it all as one presentation.

Right. Because what you said earlier was like paul and jesus they didn't emphasize emphasize. Uh you know being healthy and fit and all these things being strong. Um you know sure they talked about but it wasn't a central part of what they said.

So why are you making this a big deal. So again i i would take your word for it dr sandlin. But the problem is what you seem to be saying and you know i could be wrong on this but it's not that they're saying.

Oh yeah yeah yeah we don't need the bible. We just have the natural law. It's like we have the bible and so we have the principles and we can point to the principles that apply in these other areas. But it's not an exhaustive list of every single situation you could find yourself in life.

Even theonomists understand this. What we've got is case laws. Right. And it's not every single case that could ever they could ever imagine there's there's cases that are not in there that we can use the case law.

We have to figure out. Look theonomists get this too. So i i kind of don't take your word for it that it's like we don't need the reveal law come on like it's not like that. It's like well we we we're glad we have the revealed law but but we also have this other book of nature that you know of creation that god wrote himself and we can look into these things and stuff like that.

And and and and just for the record i don't grant for a second that he's actually talking about actual races. Maybe he is maybe he isn't. Who cares i don't even care about racism. I don't i just because i just it's just such a denigrated word that it has no meaning anymore.

Right. I'm just using it because that's what he's using. But it's just like it's just it's it's i don't take your word for it anymore. Dr stanley. Because what you seem to be saying is that well they didn't emphasize it.

So you know it's not like it's not like that though it's not like that the bible is high a high context document right. And i'm not saying it doesn't apply to us today. Of course it applies to us today.

But we have to recognize if we're going to interpret it correctly we have to recognize we're in a different context right. And so if jesus and the apostles didn't emphasize overeating on a massive scale i think there's probably reasons why they didn't because at their time there wasn't this overeating on a massive scale like there is today.

Um make that makes sense to me right. So we can take things from the from the book uh of revealed law and revealed word and we could apply them to our context today even though it's very different than the context.

From then say that zach quite honestly is they can't find their unique views in the bible and therefore they have to retreat to some other authority which they call nature. Now let's make let's distinguish between creation and nature.

Nature as it's understood today is they often use the term is a human construction. It's not actually natural revelation. It's a human construction of how they with their depraved minds are able to warp what they say is in nature.

Let us remember that adolf hitler believed in natural law. He did. He believed that nature will teach you that.

The arian race you know i don't think that uh there would be quite as many people memeing you guys into oblivion if you just if you didn't do the memes just so consistently like i mean you can be mad about i'm not gonna tell you how to feel about being memed into kingdom.

Come but but but. You do the memes that you you write. You do the memes they write themselves. Let us remember that adolf hitler also drank water and also thought that men being strong was good. Let us remember never forget.

Oh man i just coughed there. I was about to say something and uh that's a providential cough because again i'm trying to be nice. What what happened here. Hold on hold on.

Hold on attention retirees if you're willing to be at your computer from 9 a .m to 10 45.

He's a existentialist philosopher. Some of that can get technical but that's let us remember.

That adolf hitler also loved his family kind of the basis of it. This what's fast if you want to drop man start apology is getting that ad revenue right now.

I have a lot to say so go ahead. I want to be balanced in this here. So one of the things that you point oh my goodness it started off again.

The idea that their view of nature is that you know we should be closer to those of us of our own skin color than um than believers who have dark skin uh black african-american asian or hispanic have controlled culture and the old fat guy in regards to protecting the unburied.

In this category i'm referring to some whom when they bring up these various uh ideas racist ideas and these ideas i'll point to the scriptures. Where did paul or jesus say that. And they will say they will say well we need to go by nature also uh now i think the reason that they say that zach quite honestly is they can't find his name is that using the body was right and therefore they have to retreat to some other authority which they call nature.

Now let's make let's distinguish between creation and nature. Nature as it's understood today is they often use the term is a human construction. It's not actually natural revelation it's a human construction of how they with their depraved minds are able to warp.

What they say is in nature what nobody's saying he's.

Saying this is how we understand it right. He's saying this is how these these evil christian reform guys understand it. It's about it's a human construction that their own he's. I think he's trying to say we would own this right.

You know guys like us would own this and they said oh with our warped minds try to you know you change the bible like it's. Really not. We wouldn't own that.

Obviously poor form poor form. That uh adolf hitler believed in natural law. He did. He believed that nature will teach you that the arian race is superior to slavic races and to those of darker skin.

And therefore we should let help nature take its course in getting rid of them. So while most of them of course might uh our opponents on this point would certainly abhor that they will find in nature a constructed idea of reality that will support their views when the bible won't.

There's another dualistic element here and and. And uh stephen wolf will sort of acknowledge this. He will say yes. The bible is the authoritative sufficient word of god. We need it in the church. We need it for the gospel and so on.

But in the quote natural realm in the realm of politics then we need nature we need aristotle and we need aquinas and so on. Why. Because you can't get in politics. What they want to get in politics by appealing to the bible as your final authority.

And that's why he will say we don't want theonomy. It is. It is. And you'll have some of them today. This is the this is the irony. We believe in natural law. Theonomy. Well that's a joke. Now deny theonomy if you want to.

That's fine. There have always been those who have and have made arguments against it. But there's no such thing as natural law. Theonomy. Read what. Well the main author of the book of course was greg bonson theonomy and christian ethics.

What is this point. That that natural law so-called natural theology is not sufficient it is the bible that is sufficient.

For everything all of life uh and this and this is great. And i i love that. I i do. I've read greg bonson. I've read rush dooney. I've read gary north. I've read damar. I've read all of these guys. Right.

These are. This is how i cut my teeth on all of this and i'll never forget. I've always said it many times. When i read it for the first time i was so angry because i you know no no one's ever taught me this before i felt like people were keeping things from me.

But what i've come to find out since then is um if you go back further to the the great reformers that we all revere they they had an understanding of natural law they had an understanding of of this kind of thing and um you know the the they didn't have the the the automatic suspicion of anyone talking about um natural law and things like that.

And so um i mean if you force me to if you force me to choose and and i don't this is a false choice. I don't have to choose uh if you force me to choose if you force me to choose between guys like calvin and uh and um you know uh who's the guy that wrote lex rex.

Somebody told me to read lex rex long time ago and i didn't do it and then i finally did and i was just blew my mind you know um if you force me to choose between these guys and and rush dooney and and gary bonson well i'm choosing those guys.

I mean it what do you want for me. I am choosing those guys. It's a false choice. I can i can read both and appreciate both. But um it's um it's to try to make this and and i saw i saw you know uh somebody else do this to try to make post-millennialism.

Sorry not not post-millennialism. If you even that even that if you try to make post-millennialism and theonomy and uh presuppositionalism and and these kinds of things definitional of being reformed um it just it makes no sense to do that.

Um we we just we have too much like we know too much about the reformed tradition that that it just doesn't make sense to do that i'm post-millennial i consider myself theonomic. I'm sure sandlin wouldn't consider me theonomic um presuppositional all these things i i love all these things.

But i you have to be honest like you know some of these things are are newer developments. And that doesn't mean they're automatically wrong. But to try to make it now definitional of of being reformed or or otherwise we look at you as suspicion it's it's so bizarre it it really makes no sense at all it's it's unbelievable how little sense it makes not that.

Not that creation doesn't have a testimony a glorious testimony not that there isn't evidence. Clearly cornelius van till said there is nothing but evidence. Everywhere we look there's evidence. The problem isn't in in creation.

The problem is in man's distortion of his interpretation and that's why we always need the word of god. So that's why i think there is uh in many ways. That's why there's a revival of the natural theology and natural law because it can be twisted and distorted in a way the bible can.

Can the bible be distorted. Sure. We read about people warnings in the bible not to distort it but it's much easier to distort nature because it's not propositional revelation.

Syncretism, Greek Thought, and the Reformed Tradition

You mentioned the uh christian vitalism in your article too. Yes. So yes this correct me if i'm wrong here. This is what you're referring to when you talk about an apparent syncretism between the biblical faith and pagan worldviews.

Correct. Like what. This is one of the things yeah what this looks like as expressed. There seems to be a perennial temptation for christian thought to merge with greek thought. I mean you just pointed out dualism as one of the manifestations of it.

But it's interesting that again i'm trying to be careful here because i don't want to accuse good reform brothers of just imbibing this. And they would accuse us of saying well you're saying we don't believe the bible is the word of god anymore and that it's this all-sufficient standard.

That's not what i'm saying but what you're articulating here and the things that you have been seeing for months now is that there seems to be syncretistic underpinnings going on in the way that even christians think through engagement in the political sphere the way that we apply the bible and the christian faith in all of life and an intersection between what we hold to be biblical christianity and greek orthodoxy.

I mean greek thinkers. There seems to be this temptation that we have to syncretize the faith to kind of mix in and create a new version. I know that's what you know. Um aquinas and other thinkers were trying to do.

They were trying to syncretize christianity with greek thought. And so it just seems like that that's coming around again.

Are you tired of struggling with stubborn jar lids. This ultimate kitchen tool will revolutionize the way you open. In a sense oh it is and.

In fact it's a perennial problem as as you know and as some of your listeners will know that started very early in the history of the church not in the bible itself but in the church fathers. That's what the reformed apologist kirlenius van till argued against.

And those also in the reformed tradition like herman dwey veered and various others they pointed out this danger of trying to synthesize a christian thought and and pagan greek thought particularly those of aristotle.

I mean aquinas did that. Did aquinas say many great things he did. Did he say some bad things he did. And so this revival today is really a sad thing. And when one asks why why now. Well for one thing people like uh sort of academic and scholarly respectability and the greeks in many cases are respected whereas the bible well the bible is just god's word and has offensive things in it.

But if we can show that this is you're philosophically coherent with the great western greek tradition. But but this is so. It's it this is. We're going to end here. This is so.

Cynical. Um it's it's very cynical you know what i mean. It's like you you go and you say well you know aquinas you know he he was uh you know he said some good things he said some bad things but he was trying to synchronize all this stuff and all this kind of thing and then and then you go through you can just keep going through a lot of the reformers the people that we revere that are taught uh in our schools and stuff like this.

And it's like it's like what they're what they're all doing is succumbing once again to this this idea of uh syncretizing the bible with paganism right. Um and and and that's very cynical because what we could also be doing is looking at some of the good things they said and uh maybe maybe some of the things that you would say are bad are actually not that bad.

Maybe some of them are good and and and kind of retrieving and and and and kind of rediscovering some of that stuff. This is all part of our tradition. Right. This is all part of our tradition. It could just be that people are trying to be more in line with the tradition of the reformed faith.

Maybe that's what it is i think in some cases that's exactly what it is. Or you could be very cynical and just say oh this is a perennial temptation to synchronize with the pagans. It's it's all very cynical and you know it's it's i think that this is this here's a losing argument you know you want a losing argument here's a losing argument to sit here in your study and to pretend like you know there was no true reformed christians until i don't know greg bonson wrote his book you know what i mean or ventil you know did his apologetic it's like and all the other ones you know you got to cast some suspicion at them.

We can teach the good things that they said but you know overall they they they were really kind of syncretizing you know the faith with this and that and all this. It's just it's a very weird spot to put yourselves in you know what i mean and i forget who did this i forget who did this but they again they made definitional to being reformed being uh post-millennial theonomic and uh and presuppositional and it's like i mean what what what what is a reasonable person to do is a reasonable person to say oh yeah you're right.

And there were no there were no reformed people prior to ventil or whatever like there were none. I don't think that's a reasonable reaction to that but what a reasonable reaction to that is to say our reformed tradition is not really what you say it you know what i mean it's it's a lot more deep it's a lot you know there's a lot more to it than all this and i think there's everything right about going back to the original documents going back to this stuff and trying to retrieve stuff that we've forgotten things that we haven't been taught things that we haven't really examined and say you know what maybe maybe they were on to you know maybe lex rex has got a lot more good in it than i used to think it did.