December 5, 2017 Show with Kurt M. Smith on “Thundering the Word: The Life, Ministry & Gospel of George Whitfield” (Part 2)

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Now here's our host Chris Arnton Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com

This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this fifth day of December 2017

I'm delighted to have a returning guest today who I really thoroughly enjoy interviewing every time

He's on his name is Kurt M Smith and he's in he's an author and he is the pastor of Providence Reformed Baptist Church of Pine Mountain, Alabama.

We are once again discussing the life of George Whitfield.

In fact, we are titling this this interview today thundering the word the life

Ministry and gospel of George Whitfield and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back for part two of this discussion to iron sharpens iron radio

Kurt M Smith Thank you, Chris. It's good to be back always good to be on this program.

Thank you very much brother It's always good to have you on and if you could once again because of the fact that we have people joining our audience

It seems every single day for the for the very first time And they may have not have heard you on the program before tell our listeners something about Providence Reformed Baptist Church of Pine Mountain, Alabama Providence Reformed Baptist Church is a newly established

Reformed Baptist Church we constituted August 31st 2016 and since that time we have joined ourselves an association with the

Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America ARPCA But we are the

We're the only confessional Reformed Baptist Church, at least in this part of Alabama where we are and we have been very grateful to the

Lord for the growth that we've seen Unfortunately more spiritually than numerically

But if we could you know, if we choose between the two we would take the spiritual over the numerical

Because you can have you can have a house full of people and and there there not be the you know

The spiritual grace is necessary to be a healthy church and and it really be a debacle So so we're very thankful for what the

Lord has graced us with since we've been together Well praise God and for anybody out there who is either going to be

Visiting the Alabama area near Pine Mountain Or if you already live there or if you have friends and family there you can go to PR BC 1689 org

PR for Providence Reformed BC for Baptist Church one six eight nine for the 1689

London Baptist Confession of Faith org PBRC 1689 org and just for our listeners who may be wondering why a

Baptist church would have some kind of a confession that is a A Man -written creed or confession?

it's something that is not a part of the canon of Scripture that may be wondering why on earth the

Bible believing Baptists need this. Well, this is just a summary of What we as Reformed Baptists believe that the

Bible teaches this is not a compilation of traditions invented by men

Am I correct? Yeah, that is correct. And and also, you know for those

For those who say in the spirit of David Campbell the Founder of the

Churches of Christ back in the early 19th century. I think it was Alexander Campbell wasn't it? Oh, thank you.

Thank you. David Campbell was my former pastor David is now

Pastoring in northern England but he was pastoring here for about 15 years at Grace Baptist Church of Carlisle and I had the blessing to have him as my pastor for I guess it was

Over four years and now I am very blessed to have John Miller as our new pastor.

So but anyway, that's a slide Yeah Yeah Because I know

John personally and and I know how much of a blessing that their brother is So you guys are very great.

They're at Grace Baptist. Oh praise God. Well, he should be it He should have been in here today co -hosting the show with me, but I know he's very busy right now

Well, um, well what you know, the famous the famous quote that Alexander Campbell had made is

No, no creed, but the Bible Or or the Bible is my creed right and and that that's really a misnomer

Because because if you if you ask the question to a Christian Well, what do you believe the Bible teaches and then they begin to tell you what they believe the

Bible teaches Then you can just simply say well, there you go. There's your creed yes, and I have many friends in the

Church of Christ to Count the restoration movement as their their heritage and but I can say that I was in a

Church of Christ congregation once for a Bible conference and the speaker was

Speaking about that very same thing we in the Churches of Christ Do not have any creed or confession

But the Bible and I held up a tract that I got from their lobby and I said Just out of curiosity,

I wanted to read something here from something I found in your lobby it says this Congregation is a

Church of Christ our Ministers do not wear clerical garments or robes.

They wear business suits. We only use acapella worship During the services and we celebrate the

Lord's Supper Every week and we baptize only believers by immersion only

For the remission of sins and I said, do you realize that this is your creed? This is a confession

I don't remember there being much of a response other than a perhaps a nervous chuckle and well, let's move on Yeah But anyway,

I'm sorry, I don't mean to make fun of my friends in that group, but I just it's a true story What can I tell you? Well, you know that there is

Granted I mean, this is not the the the main the main part of our subject, but but having a confession of faith while it is never on an equal par with God's infallible inerrant word yet it is it is an important and And I'll go so far as to say

I think it's very necessary and healthy for a local church to hold to a confession of faith because it

It sends a message To anybody who comes into the local church a very clear message as to this is who we are

This is what we believe. This is where we stand upon Scripture because it's just Frankly, it's not enough to simply say.

Well, I believe the Bible is a word of God and Just leave it there, right? And in this litigious society that we are living in where Christians are being sued

In fact the Supreme Court as you know, or may know The Supreme Court is hearing arguments today in regard to the now infamous

Gay wedding cake Controversy where a baker was sued

Because he refused to make a specifically gay Wedding cake for customers of his that That would made it would have made it evident that he was joining in on their celebration in some way even if he was being paid for and This is a scary world that we're living in and having a confession of faith

At least will further protect local congregations when people are

Joining themselves to those congregations. Hey, you knew when you join this congregation what we believe that's in our our

Confession and our guidelines and obviously we would in this day and age have to add to our Constitution anyway

If we don't have some kind of an amended version of the 1689 London Baptist Confession, we should be including that marriage is a sacred act

That involves one man and one woman pledging before God to be united for the rest of their lives and you know that that's

It's crazy that we would have to even consider the necessity of adding that today, but it's it's scary

Yeah, it is. Well, I know when when we constituted as a church back in August 2016

When we were putting together the Constitution there is a part of our church Constitution that lays all of that out very clearly, you know as to what we firmly believe the

Bible very plainly and clearly teaches about Marriage and what marriage is what constitutes marriage?

But but I agree with you. I mean it It's remarkable as well as it's tragic that in these in this day and time

That we're even having to clarify something as basic as that but you know this this is the day we're living in and and And as I know that we've talked about this in previous

Talks before on your program with with the right with the increasing rise of paganism combined with secularism

This this is this is the end result, you know, this is this is the byproduct And this is also the byproduct of churches even evangelical churches caving in to the whims and demands of the secular society where we bend our statements of faith and our worship and all kinds of things to accommodate the world where we buy into The the lie that it is more important to spare the feelings of lost people than to be

Compassionate towards them that they might repent and be spared of not only the earthly consequences of their sin, but also eternal torment

But anyway, that's it's a crazy crazy world Yeah, well, yeah true and that's and it's because of that You know in what you're describing about broad evangelicalism

Here in our country. I mean, that's why that's why we you know, we need desperately

Churches Where pastors are faithfully clearly unashamedly?

proclaiming the whole counsel of God and And and not backing down not negotiating

Anything that you know that that is that is scripturally clear and this and this is a good segue into Into going back to the 18th century going back to where things were prior to God Saving and raising up and sending out

George Whitefield to preach the gospel in his day because England England in the early 1700s was

Was was in in an absolutely horrible morally socially spiritual plight and It's one of that's one of the reasons.

I mean the darkness was so thick. In fact as JC Ryle in the 19th century

When JC Ryle was writing about that period of time in England He said he said that The darkness was so gross and thick that you could feel it

Wow and Yeah, and so and so it you know to imagine

Imagine a culture to imagine a nation in you know in spiritual moral darkness like that social darkness like that You know how how amazing it was

To you know to have someone like Whitfield you know literally just Piercing that darkness with the light of the gospel in the power of the

Spirit But it was it was so needed and needed on every single level

Just to give you an example And the first 30 years of the 18th century in England It was a culture

Swallowed up in sexual immorality, which sounds real familiar Pornographic literature in that day

Multiplied unchecked Wow you talking about just literary or were you talking about like woodcuts?

Literature I mean books being produced They they multiplied in that day totally unchecked

Newspapers advertised such things as the services of gigolos cures for venereal disease One could purchase guidebooks to the numerous brothels in London Socially England was overrun with disease that either saw no cure or was left unrestrained the life expectancy

At that time period in England was only 35 years of age with Wow Yeah with an infant mortality rate that was absolutely staggering and of course one cultural phenomena in Great Britain at that time

Which of course increased the social ills of England society was what was called the gin craze?

It was reported that by mid century the consumption of gin was 11 million gallons a year in London 100 ,000 people drank gin as their principal means of sustenance

Wow and the suffering Which such a craven indulgence like that brought upon the people?

Is illustrated by one news article in London from 1748

That read at a christening at Bennington in Surrey The nurse was so intoxicated that after she had undressed the child instead of laying it in the cradle

She put it behind a large fire and burnt it to death in a few minutes. Oh my goodness.

Oh, wow one one contemporary of that period said that gin has made the

English people what they never were before cruel and inhuman But if if all of that wasn't bad enough these moral and social sins

That were so pronounced and so unbridled Was largely due because the

Church of England itself was sound asleep Right. I think I think by the way, this is a lesson.

I know this is not our topic today But this is a lesson. I think a very powerful lesson

For all of our Reformed Brethren and I am not saying that There is no

Christian Liberty to moderately imbibe in alcoholic beverages but the way that many of our

Reformed Brethren flaunt that Liberty and I think Cross the line on that Liberty I think that this is a it should be a wake -up call to that kind of attitude towards alcohol well,

I agree because Obviously there are limits to our freedom, you know to our liberties limits to our liberties as Christians and and of course

Go to Scripture go to passages like Romans 14 first Corinthians chapter 8

Where you know there in that chapter the Apostle Paul? Writing about the meat offered to idols and how that yes

I mean a Christian had the freedom to eat meat that have been offered idols and there were Members of the Corinthian Church that were doing that very thing because of the strength of their faith

It wasn't a matter of you know, it didn't Do anything to their conscience, but yet there were there were other believers other

Christians Where they couldn't do that because it was a matter of conscience and for Paul the

Apostle if you remember He says in first Corinthians chapter 8. He said That you know for the sake of you know for the sake of love

Love for Christ love for the soul. He said he said he said I'll never be to eat again you know,

I you know, I will not eat meat, you know for the sake of this brother and And I do think that you know that principle

Needs to be first in in all of our liberties as Christians, but especially when it comes to alcohol

So, I mean I you know, I I don't believe the scripture teaches You know total and complete

Abstinence from alcohol and granted that can be Debated and it is debated all the time in in certain circles and I'm not up for that up for that debate in this conversation but but there there has to be and there is a very clear moral responsibility a moral ethic that the scripture lays down when it comes to the things that we are free to do as Believers and we have to always be thinking about the other person.

Amen, and I think that there are certain people like myself Who should never touch alcohol again because I had a serious problem with it.

I had a serious addiction to it so Obviously someone like myself.

It'd be very stupid to even casually or moderately

Touch it. Oh Yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely Absolutely. Well, we we have a there's a member of our church that would be in that same exact category with you and And so yeah,

I mean for you know for Christians in whose lives You know it it was enslavement

No, they they should they should never They should never get anywhere near it ever again.

Amen. So so this is the this is the atmosphere out of which Whitfield emerges on the scene and I know that you are in the process.

In fact, you are almost finished writing a book on Whitfield and Could you tell us the title is our title today close to the title of the book?

Yeah, it is the title the title book is called thundering the word and The and the subtitle to it is a primer on George Whitfield's life and legacy proclaiming

Christ as a Calvinistic Evangelist the the content it's not

It obviously is not it. It's not what you'd call a definitive biography Right.

They've are there. They're there. They've already been very very good Definitive biographies in Delamore, right?

Oh, yes, definitely Arnold Alley more really is standard definitive biography

This is more of what you would call in the category of a popular biography It it paints

Whitfield's life with very broad brush strokes highlighting Certain things about his character

Certain aspects about his his life as a whole, but especially of course

His life is a Christian. His life is a gospel preacher But really it it goes after this focus on Whitfield as an itinerant evangelist and more specifically a

Calvinistic evangelist and in really laying out What we see in his in his life and ministry

As an itinerant evangelist as a Calvinistic evangelist with Several very practical important lessons that we can glean from Whitfield learning from him just Thinking of what

Hebrews 13 7 says and I this is what I put in my introduction to it Remember your leaders those who spoke to you the

Word of God Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith And so that's what

I'm that's what I'm striving to do in in this small biography Let's consider some things about Whitfield's way of life some things that are worth imitating as to his faith

And so so that that's that's what I'm going after in this Great, if you could summarize what we began this conversation with the last time you were on give us a brief summary overview of Whitfield and then we'll move on to the

Uncharted territory in regard to our discussions on this program Okay well,

George Whitfield, he lived between the years of 1716 to 1770

He was born in Gloucester, England But he left this world in Newburyport, Massachusetts and his remains are actually buried

In in a vault underneath Directly under the pulpit there at the

First Presbyterian Church in Newburyport Yes, in fact a dear friend of mine who is now with the

Lord for eternity Al Stein he was believe it or not an assembly of God or assemblies of God pastor who

I knew before he became a Calvinist and then over the years he became a thoroughgoing five -point Calvinist and Was not only a pastor in the assemblies of God but a bishop an overseer and he had this he loved

George Whitfield and before he Went home to the Lord. He had the opportunity of standing behind Whitfield's pulpit and had a photograph of himself

Standing there, which was precious to see but anyway, I'm sorry. I digress Oh, no,

I like that kind of digression Whitfield's ministry would last over a span of 34 years

When he died in 1770, it has been said that he preached some 18 ,000 sermons averaging 60 hours a week in this labor

It has been estimated that during his ministry. He preached he preached to Combined audiences of over 10 million and that four -fifths of the colonists in America From Georgia to New Hampshire heard him at least once Which could not be said of any other person at that time in his travels

He would not only cover all of England and Wales But he would journey to Scotland 15 times

Ireland twice Holland once and crossed the Atlantic 13 times with seven trips to America one to Gibraltar and Bermuda with attempts to reach

Canada in the West Indies And of course, what is the most astonishing thing about the magnitude of such an itinerary like this?

Is that it was accomplished before there were planes trains and automobiles travel was either by boat buggy horseback or foot and And furthermore

Whitfield's extensive trekking was in spite of his premature aging and the onset of asthma

That would eventually claim his life in late sick in late September of 1770

Wow now he and John Wesley is

Armenian counterpart in that day and age who were Very they had a very unusual relationship because they were very close friends, but at the same time they were theological rivals and had very heated exchanges on their differences on the doctrines of Sovereign Grace, but Would you consider

Whitfield a Methodist as John Wesley was because I know that there were Calvinist Methodists.

In fact, even as Recently as the 20th century.

Dr. Martin Lloyd -Jones Many would recognize that name from the 20th century he was a

Calvinist Methodist and there are other people that that name or that way of describing oneself seems to disappeared from popularity, but Could you tell us it was

Whitfield a Calvinist Methodist? Yeah, absolutely. He was in fact in January of 1743 in South Wales Whitfield was directly involved in the organization and then in the moderating of the very first Calvinistic Methodist Association Wow, and yeah, and so yes, he was he was a

Calvinistic Methodist now in regards to Wesley What's interesting in correlation with the

Calvin Calvinistic Methodist Association is that in 17 in 1748

Whitfield he He was he was continually grieved over the division suffered between he and the

Wesley brothers Which was a division that took place nine years prior to this particular year 1748

Not to mention he was very grieved or the increasing effects of that division among all who had attached themselves to either of these men

And so Whitfield made a very bold decision Realizing that those gathered under his and John Wesley's leadership would never be united He determined to relinquish his place in position as the leader of his

Methodist Societies as they were called and by this one act

Whitfield would actually spare the Methodist movement from bitter strife which in turn

Would permit John Wesley to emerge as the single head of Methodism even though It was

George Whitfield It was the original Founder of the Methodist movement

Wow Okay And look we're gonna have you pick right up where you left off on that When we write when we return from our first break if anybody would like to join us on the air our

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So we look forward to hearing from you and your questions and we also look forward to the continuation of our interview with Kurt M Smith on The thundering on thundering the word the life and ministry and gospel of George Whitfield.

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USA before we Return to anything that you have to say

To follow up on what you were saying before the break. I do have a listener in Slovenia Joe in Slovenia who says while researching

George Whitfield recently I came across a source that recognized him as the greatest preacher that England has ever produced

However, he spent little time formally preparing sermons Whitfield secretary is quoted as saying

I believe he knew nothing about such a kind of exercise Brother Smith, does your research confirm this if so, what is your understanding of the explanation of this was

Whitfield? So knowledgeable in the scriptures that he didn't need to study and prepare. Was he such a

What was he such a powerful Extemporaneous speaker that he didn't need prior preparation of manuscripts or even notes

Did he essentially? Preach the same few messages over and over was it a combination of these and or other factors in your estimation

How does Whitfield compared to Spurgeon as a preacher? Thank you for sharing your insights I pray the

Lord has another Whitfield for our nation soon Well, I always appreciate

Joe's questions Well in in regards to his question

George Whitfield very very early in his ministry

He actually he actually prepared he sat down he sat down and he prepared a full full manuscript of his sermons

But what he would what he would end up having to do over time and and this was something that really occurred very quickly for him because of Just I mean he was converted in 1735 and yet by 1737

He was already having crowds of people thronging to hear him preach the gospel and And he was ended up preaching five five to ten times a week

In different towns and villages of England then of course the same would happen when he

Made his first trip to America and then later trips to America. So what

I'm getting at is is that What Whitfield did is that he prepared several sermons?

But he also would memorize those sermons and And and therefore when he preached well, he preached extemporaneously that is without notes

But he preached sermons that he had memorized In fact

Thomas Kidd in his in his biography on Whitfield he said that Often repeated memorized sermons were essential components of Whitfield's mature preaching

As he gained experience he could also respond on the fly to an audience's mood

Sometimes he did not know what he would say until he ascended the field scaffold He picked texts and biblical stories based on the feel of the moment and matched his remarks to the crowds emotions

But he could do that because of how just how powerfully gifted extraordinarily gifted of an orator that he was and so There was nothing loosey -goosey about Whitfield as a preacher

He was a voracious reader he had a

Fantastic memory so he could he could retain much very much of what he read and And he was constantly

Constantly Meditating on the word. I mean he he was a very strongly self -disciplined man his his his hours in the day, he would rise at 4 in the morning every morning and from 4 and From 4 to after 5 he would be in the word

Privately devotionally with the Lord in prayer and then by 6 o 'clock in the morning.

He's out into the open fields preaching But he was in bed by 10 o 'clock at night every night and so he so he lived a

Strongly self -disciplined never excessive kind of a life and Therefore, you know in in his later years

He wasn't you know, he wasn't preparing like I would have to prepare as a pastor every week but he had accumulated so many sermons in his earlier years and He had memorized them.

He had retained them word for word that That He would he would preach and repreach those sermons, but But also to wherever he was in the search in certain situations and circumstances

He He would he would he would be very engaging with with the crowd of people

He was preaching to to know, you know What what point or what part of this sermon needed greater emphasis, you know a greater accent as Far as to an application that would be given

Well, thank you. That would be my answer Thank you Joe in Slovenia and keep spreading the word about iron trip and Zion radio in Slovenia and Beyond well, if you want to pick up right where you left off before the break

Yeah it's 1748 and and as I've said

Whitfield had made the decision to Relinquish his place in position as the leader of his

Methodist societies because by this time in 1748 There was a division within Methodism and it was a very specific division theologically doctrinally you had the

Armenian Methodist and you had the Calvinistic Methodist and Whitfield, of course was the leader the head of the

Calvinist Methodist. Well When he made this decision to relinquish his place in position as leader of the

Calvinistic Methodist Association Naturally many of his followers were not happy with his decision

They warned him that his fame would be lost that he would be all but forgotten to future generations

They pleaded They pleaded with him not to fade from the scene as it were

They wanted him to retain his position increase his party continue the prominence of his name

But His where his heart really was

In making the decision that he did which would which would as I said It would permit

John Wesley to emerge as the single head of Methodism, which is why to this day Many Christians have any know anything about being the

Methodist Church They'll always link it to John Wesley, but know anything about Wesley. So what he was the founder but historically he really wasn't

But that was because George Whitfield denied himself and He turned that all over to Wesley, but to really know what

Whitfield's heart in this In a letter to a friend on July the 12th 1748.

This is what he wrote. He said never mind me Let my name die Everywhere let even my friends.

Forgive me if by that means the cause of the Blessed Jesus be promoted and To another friend in 1749.

He said you judge right when you say it is your opinion That I do not want to make a sect or set myself at the head of a party

No, let the name of Whitfield die so that the cause of Jesus Christ may

Live and then even to others he would express incessantly Let my name be forgotten.

Let me be trodden under the feet of all men if Jesus made thereby be glorified

Amen Wow, you know, I mean, I mean for me when I read that I say, okay

Now there's something right there about Whitfield's faith. That is very much worth imitating and Very rarely imitated in the 21st century

Well, that's powerful that's something for us all to learn from I think the most pressing question that any of our listeners about Whitfield is

What's the deal with the princess Leia powdered wig that he had? A custom of a certain time that I'm glad is no longer with us

It's actually still exists in England in the the court system Yeah that you're right, you're right it sure does but you know, thankfully thankfully with with ministers

You know, we yeah, we don't see that but yes that that was a that was a peculiar custom

But I was just joking by bringing it up. But anyway Well, I want to learn as much as possible that we didn't cover the last time on the show about Whitfield And I know that we've touched on this before I don't know if you have anything to add to it, but It's said that there are even confessionally reformed and Calvinistic brothers in Christ who have a big problem with Whitfield and do not count him among their heroes, which is very baffling and puzzling to me,

I mean there are a number of Big differences between The Reformers themselves and those who would later pick up the mantle

Throughout the centuries all kinds of differences. Why why would you? Be so hostile to George Whitfield and his memory if you indeed are a believer in the same gospel that he preached well, one of the reasons that Whitfield has received such criticism from particular

Parts in in the Reform camp is because there

There are those among Reformed Brethren who? Who really really see

George Whitfield as having as having been sort of the the father or the pioneer of what we know today as the parachurch ministry or the parachurch organization

They They they don't they don't see a strong churchmanship in Whitfield because he was such a

Strong itinerant evangelist. I mean that really his his life's work really was itinerant evangelist, but But what what these brothers are not?

Being fair to Whitfield about in regards to his churchmanship. Is that George Whitfield? Was a committed confessional

Anglican He he was he was very strongly committed to the

Church of England Committed to her 39 articles of faith. He was committed to the book of common prayer.

He you know He he had a very strong churchmanship When it came to the church that he was a member of the church

That he was ordained in But because his life's work was itinerant and Therefore he was not a settled pastor in one church

Even though he did serve in a pastoral capacity in two different chapels that were

Built by those that were very much attached to him among the Calvinistic Methodist.

That's in more fields and Tottenham Road Court But by and large because of his itinerant evangelism and not being really a true settled pastor

You know you you can get the impression on the surface if you don't really dig deep

To think that well Whitfield. He just really wasn't a churchman but yet for George Whitfield There was no greater delight for him when it came to preaching the

Word of God Preaching the gospel than to be preaching the scriptures in a

Anglican Church Well that that explains why we had here in the United States I don't know what the counterpart in the

UK would have been or in Great Britain and other places in Europe But we had at one time there was a division between the

Episcopal Church and the Methodist Church and they were known as the Methodist Episcopal Church and today we even have the

African Methodist Episcopal Church, but but at one time there was a multi racial cultural denomination called the

Methodist Episcopal Church and so that I guess that's That explains the connection of course since the

Whitfield being a Methodist was also an Anglican Yeah, yes, yeah, that's right and in regards to just to his commitment as as an

Anglican minister There is a there's a single volume biography that was written in 1837 by a man named

Robert Phillips Banner of truth, they actually published this biography, which

I'm really glad they do. It was the first biography written full -scale biography written on George Whitfield following his death in 1770 a friend of Whitfield's man by the name of John Gillies He had he had written a very short biography of Whitfield that was published two years after Whitfield's death, but Robert Phillips in 1837 wrote a full -scale biography and In this biography he writes this of Whitfield in regards to the

Anglican Church. He says that He says Whitfield He says access to the

Episcopal churches Delighted him much wherever it occurred. He never fails to record both his gratitude and gratification when he obtains on any tour

Access to even one church. It was always good. It excuse me.

It always did him good True, he was at home wherever there were souls around him, but he was most at home in a church

Except indeed when he had a mountain for his pulpit and the heavens for his sounding board and half a county for his congregation

Then neither st. Paul's nor Westminster had any attractions for him the fact is

Whitfield both admired and loved the liturgy and that of course is referring to the rights of the

Anglican Church In fact, we're gonna pick up right where that you left off about the liturgy because we have to get to our midway break We're gonna be back.

This is our elongated break to Satisfy the requirements of grace life radio 90 .1

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God or am

I trying to please? Man, if I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ Hi, I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church We are a reformed

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This is Chris Arnzen If you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with just about an hour to go is

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Well now we are back with Kurt M Smith author and pastor of Providence Reformed Baptist Church of Pine Mountain, Alabama We are discussing part two of Thundering the word the life ministry and gospel of George Whitefield if you'd like to join us with your own question

That's the email that I just mentioned that you can send a question to that's Chris Arnson at gmail .com

Give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside of the USA Well, if you could pick up where you left off the last thing you were talking about is how much

George Whitefield loved the Anglican liturgy Yes, that's right.

And with that this biographer Robert Phillips Who I said in the last hour he was he wrote the first full -scale single -volume biography of George Whitefield Following Whitfield's well several years following Whitfield's death and in 1837 was when this biography was published in in this biography

He is addressing Whitfield's love for commitment to devotion to the

Anglican Church and He did say that Whitfield both admired and loved the liturgy meaning

You know the the way the the order of worship was Was put together in in the

Anglican Church, but it's interesting he says that Whitfield had the spirit of its compilers and Of its best prayers talking about the prayers of out of the common prayer book

He says he had this in his own bosom and therefore it was no form to him

He says it had been the channel upon which the first mighty springtides of his devotion flowed and the chief medium of his communion with heaven and so Robert Phillip he

He concludes this by saying that Whitfield therefore was most in his element

With the Anglican Church service, although he was often equally and more successful without it and In regards to that pertaining directly to that While we were on our longest break there

I pulled up a Interesting observation made by J.

I Packer in in relation to George Whitfield and Whitfield's Anglicanism and Packer said that Whitfield did in fact unwittingly encourage an

Individualistic piety of what we would call a para church type a piety that gave its prime loyalty to trans denominational endeavors that became impatient and restless in face of the

Relatively fixed forms of institutional church life and that conceived of evangelism is typically an extra ecclesiastical activity and Packer says, you know

Whitfield may not have wished to have had this effect, but involuntarily he did and in that That is where You know these these certain brethren in in the reform camp whether they be

Mostly so they're in among Presbyterians, but even among some Reformed Baptists are very very critical in that respect to Whitfield but But again, well,

I think I think as Packer was noting. I think that is a fair I think that's a fair criticism

But what what I was trying to point out with withdrawing from Robert Phillip is that that's not the whole story

George Whitfield was a churchman and and In while, you know while his his endeavors his activities to reach as many people as he could with it with the gospel

I mean it was Whitfield who said the world is now my parish You know, so it was it was just world evangelization all the way with him

You know while that was his life's work his life's endeavor But Whitfield always believed that he did that under the auspices and the authority of the

Church of England, he never saw himself as Separated from the

Church of England Was he more forgiving? Toward the

Church of England and the Church of England was toward him In in some respects, you know

Now granted in his in his earlier years in in the in the first first Four or five years that he was all that he was he was beginning to you know, preach the gospel

He he was saying some very bold things publicly Against the

Anglican clergy and in what what he believed that he was seeing As true among so many of them

You know coming just coming right out to say that you know that they they cannot even be truly converted ministers and he later on in his later years, he would actually come back and retract from that and and and ask forgiveness and apologize for for speaking like that publicly

Even though granted, I mean the you know what the facts were regarding the Church of England at that time.

I mean you you had You had most Anglican you had most

Anglican clergy who who were Who were largely men given over to just self -indulging pleasures like box hunting politics agriculture chemistry law drinking

I mean that that was the large the large segment the large culture that you saw among Anglican priests and so, you know, so Whitfield was not necessarily speaking out of turn but But he he did recognize that he he did take some things too far in What he had said

Against many Anglican clergy and that was one of the reasons it wasn't it wasn't all the reasons

But that was one of the cheap reasons why When when he when he came back to England after his first trip to America He started seeing pulpits closed up and and and shut out to him because of the things that he was probably saying about fellow

Anglican ministers now, I know that the the rise of Tractarianism the

Oxford movement I believe they were also known as the pussy ites

Within the Anglican Church who were very Romish. I know that that really started to gain foothold in the 19th century, but what what were the main problems that Whitfield was dealing with in the

Era in which he preached and and had his ministry with the Anglicans. What were the main problems he was facing?

Well the main problems as I just mentioned regarding the

Anglican clergy I mean, they were mostly Very worldly men nominal.

It was nominal Christianity based very very very nominal The other thing is that the sermons of the

Anglican Church during that time were moralistic they were stressing decency with a strong aversion to anything that hinted at what they called

Enthusiasm and by enthusiasm what they meant by that They were describing any Christian whose practice of the faith showed zeal and earnestness

So you can only imagine How they looked at Whitfield Especially doing it out in the middle of the street

Yeah I mean to them largely Whitfield was nothing

But just this rank enthusiast and and then of course combined with that because of the because of the moralistic sermons

The very very heavy strong accent that George Whitfield put in his sermons on You must be born again

And that That just sent shockwaves Through the

Anglican Church and to the Anglican clergy because they were not preaching that They simply they were not telling the people you must be born again and in so that That message in fact that was the very first sermon that Whitfield ever had printed

Was a sermon that he had entitled the necessity of The new birth and in in that in in that you know, that was a very very shocking sermon hmm now the obviously since Whitfield and Wesley both came out of Anglicanism but wound up having

Polar opposite views of the doctrines of God's sovereignty and unconditional election and definite atonement

Well, I'm assuming that the Anglican Church must have been equally divided over this issues at that time

I'm not sure how How divided they were like Whitfield and Wesley were?

when it you know when it came to Calvinism versus Arminianism You know when you read the 39 articles of the

Church of England Which George Whitfield made a full subscription to?

The the article on election predestination As a reformed

Baptist, I would say Amen, amen. I could I could actually echo nearly all of the 39 articles.

It's interesting I've said this but yeah, I've said this before and I've even rubbed this into the wounds of my

Anglican friends But even even the article on baptism, it says nothing about infant baptism

It just says that we're not supposed to forbid children From being baptized and reformed

Baptists don't forbid children if they are repentant believers Yeah, right, right.

Yeah Yeah in in in Whitfield's time Really what you had as far as the division was concerned you really had a division between a

Group of very worldly Even even in some pockets lip, you know what we would call liberal

Anglican ministers Versus those that would be considered just Evangelical like George Whitfield and and and even and even to some extent even

John Wesley I mean, you know Wesley did preach justification by faith alone and That was very controversial as well.

And of course Wesley also did preach the necessity of the new birth now that that was controversial amongst

Anglicans because that's Inherent in the 39 articles, isn't it? It is it is inherent

But we have to remember that at this period of time in the 18th century in the early 18th century the

Anglican Church as A whole generally speaking had left the substance the content

Certainly the spirit of the 39 articles, you know as as I've said a moment ago

Their sermons by and large were just nothing but rank moralism

I guess that's what that's what gave fertile soil to the Anglo Catholic movement that arose in the 19th century

Yeah. Oh, yes. Yeah very much so very much so And and you know that the ain't that the evangelical

Movement within the Anglican Church. It has always been a remnant

It's always been a a small Movement within the church thing, right?

even when Thomas Cranmer was the archbishop who actually drafted the 39 articles who was a thoroughgoing

Calvinist and Protestant King Henry the eighth his King was theologically

Roman Catholic the only thing that he militated against was the The primacy of the

Pope and the infallibility of the Pope and so on He did not want the Pope over him as as a head, but everything else.

He really never left Rome until there I know a Cranmer scholar

Ashley null who believes that That King Henry the eighth repented on his deathbed because Cranmer asked him if he believed and If he believed in justification by faith alone to squeeze his hand or something like that when he was dying and apparently

King Henry the eighth Squeezed his hand so that gave confidence to Cranmer about it But it still shows you that even in the

Church of England when Protestantism reigned supreme They're the king who started the

British or the English Reformation He himself was theologically Catholic still

Yes, he was he sure was in fact if you recall King Henry the eighth even even wrote a track against Luther That's right ending

Roman defending Roman Catholicism In regards, you know, we're talking about how

How controversial? Whitfield was as a preacher to the

Church of England Just to give a sample from one of his sermons

Which as as as I've read this sermon, I I think I think to myself.

Well, I know plenty of Men of God even you know, even today even even in good sound churches that that do not address their congregations like Whitfield Addressed the people that came to hear him, but this is a sermon that he had preached in the high church yard in Glasgow Scotland He preached it in September of 1741 this was his very first visit to Scotland and the sermon is entitled the method of grace and In this in this very strong evangelistic message

Just to give one sample he He says in his first point.

He says before you before you can speak peace to your hearts You must be made to see made to feel made to weep over made to bewail your actual transgressions against the law of God He says if if one evil thought if one evil word if one evil action deserves eternal damnation

How many hells my friends do every one of us deserve? Whose whole lives have been one continued rebellion against God Wow He says before ever therefore you can speak peace to your hearts

You must be brought to see brought to believe what a dreadful thing it is to depart from the living

God and Now my dear friends examine your hearts, or I hope you came

Either with the design to have your souls made better Give me leave to ask you in the presence of God whether you know the time and if you do not know exactly the time

Do you know there was a time when God wrote bitter things against you when the arrows of the

Almighty were within you? Was ever the remembrance of your sins grievous to you was the burden of your sins

Intolerable to your thoughts. Did you ever see that God's wrath might justly fall upon you on account of your actual?

Transgressions against God were you ever in all your life? Sorry for your sins Could you ever say my sins are gone over my head as a burden too heavy for me to bear?

Did you ever experience any such thing as this? Did ever any such thing as this passed between you but passed between God and your soul if not

For Jesus Christ's sake do not call yourselves Christians You may speak peace to your hearts, but there is no peace.

May the Lord awaken you May the Lord convert you may the Lord give you peace if it be his will before you go home

Amen Can you just you know imagine

No one was preaching like that Huh that day in that hour in how?

Arresting and how alarming and how startling? Words like that were you mean nobody was preaching like that in the

Anglican Church? Yeah, that's right. I'm assuming that there were Calvinistic Baptists and even non -Calvinistic

Baptists and and others that were I'm assuming that they were you know, it's

It's interesting in bringing that up because Among the non -conformist bodies of that time

Arnold Dalai more in his two volume biography on Whitfield He says this regarding the non -conformist bodies like the

Baptist particular Baptist and so forth He says in fact in fact as you pick right up there when we because we have to get our final break

Don't go away folks We'll be right back after these messages send in your emails now at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

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Our Advertisers remain in business you're helping iron sharpens iron radio to remain on the air because without their advertising dollars we would cease to exist barring a miracle and now we are back to our final 24 minutes or so of our interview with our guest

Kurt M Smith and We are discussing thundering the word the life ministry and gospel of George Whitfield and you were just about to Give us a profound quote when we were an

I interrupted you to go to our last station break That's all right Yeah, this is coming from Arnold Dallymore.

It's coming from the first volume of his two -volume biography on George Whitfield and he's he's talking about the the religious conditions of that time of that era and After he had finished

Telling telling us how bad things were in the Church of England He says that among the non -conformists who would be

Presbyterians Independents and Baptists he said conditions were undoubtedly better But very little so than in the

Church of England Wow to the reason yeah He said here's the reason why it says though persecuted from the time of the great

Ejection of 1662 onward they came into Liberty with the act of toleration of 1689 in the joy of this new freedom they immediately began to conduct themselves with great vitality

Yet their fervor lasted but a short time and Before many years had passed the spiritual lethargy of the times had descended up had descended on them, too

He said the strength of the non -conformist bodies became sapped as had that at the

Church of England by skepticism Certain men who held the fund to the fundamental principles of Christianity Endeavored to contend for them, but amidst the majority of the ministers

Arianism was common and some preached nothing more than the vigaries of deism

Wow but a few he says with but a few notable exceptions the pulpits were cold and Discord and stagnancy were the chief features of denominational life by the year 1700 such divisions had taken place that in London there were three separate groups of Presbyterians four of Independence and six of Baptists Wow and so Yeah You know things were not

Things were not that that much better even among Calvinistic Baptists, you know the

Presbyterians the Independence at that time and this is a point that I even bring out in in my in my book what

I'm writing now on Whitfield and Talking about this and what I say is that That where there was

Christian orthodoxy present it was vastly dead Lacking genuine spirit given authority and power thus on the surface

There was not a more apparent dismal and hopeless situation for any culture than that of England in the primal years of the 18th century and That's where when

George Whitfield came on the scene 1737 1738 that's when the

Lord providentially Arrested Whitfield out into the public is

His preaching Anointed by the Holy Spirit It as I said before it was so arresting.

It was so alarming it it literally just startled the nation Because no one was hearing preaching like that You know and certainly not with that divine unction and authority of the spirit

I guess that's why Benjamin Franklin who was not even from what we know a genuine genuinely regenerate person

He was fascinated by Whitfield. Oh Yes, he definitely was in fact in what

I was writing earlier today Okay, I wrote about this regarding Benjamin Franklin in part of in part of my work in The fifth chapter of my book

I talk about I really go into great detail about What what was it?

What was it about Whitfield's preaching? What was it about Whitfield as? as a as a man

What was it about the content of his preaching that captivated so many people and In beginning to answer that question

I Deal with with what was very

It can be very fairly called a human attraction There was a human attraction to him

His physical appearance was very striking. I go into detail talk about that But next to his physical appearance was the massive appeal from all branches of society to his very extraordinary gift in oratorical powers

And this is where I'm actually quoting from eyewitnesses of that period such as Sarah Edwards Jonathan Edwards wife and what she testified about Whitfield's oratorical powers the famous skeptic

David Hume It was a Ruthless public critic of Christianity an unbeliever and yet David Hume said it was worth traveling 20 miles just to hear

Whitfield preach the most famous professional actor of that age David Garrick who reported that Whitfield can make men weep or tremble by his varied utterances of the word

Mesopotamia But Benjamin Benjamin Benjamin Franklin Who we know became

Whitfield's first publisher in America. He wrote in his memoirs concerning The grand scale of Whitfield's Elocution he said this he said every accent every emphasis every

Modulation of voice was so perfectly well -turned and well -placed That without being interested in the subject one could not help being pleased with the discourse a

Pleasure of much the same kind would that receive from an excellent piece of music?

Hmm Wow we have John and Bangor Maine who asks

I know that George Whitfield and John Gill the great

Calvinist Baptist hero of the faith were Contemporaries did they know each other?

Did they write about each other? Did they like each other? I Don't know the answer to that directly.

I know that Michael Hagen he he wrote in A in what was called in a series of biographies called bite -sized biographies published by evangelical evangelical press and Michael Hagen actually wrote a bite -sized biography on George Whitfield, and he devoted a chapter which

I found very fascinating of Whitfield's impact upon the

Baptist and He brings out And I can't remember if if he if he mentions

John Gill in this chapter, but But he brings out that the

Baptists by and large in England were not exactly very favorable to Whitfield and He he says of course what one reason why was just the fact that George Whitfield was a

Anglican and And that you know that in itself

That in itself was was something that oh, well, here's something here

Okay. So in this chapter he says he says the leading

Baptist theologian during the mid 18th century John Gill of London and Hopefully this answers this brother's question from Maine Can state with no equivocation the

Church of England has neither the form nor matter of a true church Nor is the Word of God purely preached in it

Now Obviously, we know there that how John Gill really felt about the

Church of England So what then what then would Gil say about Whitfield?

Well, he says It Michael Aiken says not surprisingly many Calvinistic Baptists at deep reservation

About the revival since it was uniformly led by Anglican hmm a few these a few these

Anglican preachers were Arminian in theology like the Wesley brothers and thus Definitely beyond the pale for the

Calvinistic Baptist. However, Whitfield was a Calvinist Yet he was still an

Anglican In addition the fervency of his evangelism and his passionate urging of the lost to embrace

Christ prompted a number of Baptist critics Whose heightened Calvinism caused them to question the wisdom of?

Whitfield's evangelistic strategies to complain of what they termed is

Arminian accent I Hope that answers this question

Yes, and it's it's said that Many of our

Arminian brethren who would not necessarily call themselves Arminian But they are always it seems convinced that if somebody preaches with passion and urgency and Invitations for the lost to come to Christ.

I'm not talking about invitations to come forward in a church service But invitations right flee to Christ for salvation

These brethren will say well this person can't be a Calvinist I mean listen to him or read what he has to say.

He's obviously not a Calvinist and he and is some of our fundamentalist freewill believing

Friends and obviously Calvinists believe in free will too, but it's The fact that we can only please

God with our will and when we are regenerate and born again, but anyway, um the the

Baptists and others who acquiesce That Charles Spurgeon theologically on paper was a

Calvinist will say well Thankfully he was inconsistent with his theology, but that is that is not the case at all.

It's because of the theology of those who are truly Historically faithful and biblically faithful most of all

Calvinistic that they are passionate and zealous and aggressive in their urgent pleas of repentance and following Christ Yes, amen to that and and I believe that that is one of the chief reasons why as Calvinistic Baptists and Reformed Baptists today

Why we need to look at men like Whitfield or Charles Spurgeon and And learn from them at and how how fervent impassionate we can be and we should be in our proclamation of the gospel and Pleading with sinners just just like the excerpt

I read earlier from Whitfield sermon the method of grace You know the the way that he

Questioned his hearers the way that he did, you know that he pleaded with them and exhorted them to examine themselves

You know with George Whitfield was a thoroughgoing Calvinist to the hill

You know, he he loved the doctors of grace. He loved the reformed faith as a whole and That's why his his disagreements with Wesley even though they were

Covered with love especially on Whitfield's side. They were still great. They were still pretty heated

Yes, they were. Yes, they were because yeah, because for George Whitfield You know as far as as far as he was concerned

It was only it was only the doctrines of the Reformation that that that could bring about the change that was needed in that time in that era and Whitfield he said as much but in regards to in regards to his formal response to John Wesley and Wesley's sermon that he had

He had published he preached it and published it as we as we know that was against Against the doctrines of election

Predestination and in just against Calvinism as a whole when George Whitfield when he wrote his formal response to that To that that sermon in one portion of that.

He said this He said this doctrine and he's talking here about the doctrine of election.

He says this doctrine is my daily support I Should utterly sink under a dread of my impending trials

Was I not firmly persuaded that God has chosen me in Christ From before the foundation of the world and that now being effectually called

He will suffer none to pluck me out of his almighty hand Wow we have

Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County who wants to know I Have heard that one of the reasons that Whitfield requested that his friend

John Wesley preach at his funeral was that Whitfield was Starting to second -guess or question his own theology.

Is that true? No, that is definitely not true Yeah, that that is that is not true.

We we have we have primary source material that is

Whitfield in his own words from his sermons from Correspondence that he had with others that he he never he never once questioned the the

Reformation The the Reformation doctors the reform faith once he had become convinced of The reform faith which was just in the first two years of his of his

Christian life He he he never left it he just kept continuing to grow and to mature

In the reform faith. So no, he never he never second -guessed it

Let's see here. We have Robert in Westchester, New York who wants to know

Can you give us the three most vital things that separated Whitfield out from the pack three most vital things

I Would say the first thing which which may be very surprising that I would

I wouldn't say this is first, but his humility he

To to be as popular as he was One one author said that Whitfield was

America's very first cultural hero He was America's first Celebrity if you will he's been called that really he was even yes.

Yes, and he was even described as that by his own contemporaries With the enormous popularity that he had

What set him apart and this would have to set him apart because nobody was more popular than he was as far as gospel preachers of that era were

Concerned is that he was so ruthless with himself

He he abased himself so much Hum, you know just just so full of humility if you remember the

The quotes that I gave earlier from the letters he wrote in 1748 49 when he's saying let the name of Whitfield be forgotten.

Let my name die everywhere and That I would say

I mean that was most definitely one of the three most striking things

About him that set him apart from the pack He just he showed he showed an enormous grace of humility the other the other striking thing was the phenomena of The power the authority the liberty of the

Holy Spirit in his preaching He of course was not the only

Gospel preacher during the Great Awakening during the evangelical revival in Great Britain who who experienced

That kind of divine unction in their preaching, but he was the only one

Who experienced it for as long as he did? and And and it really was and I said this in our first talk about Whitfield back in October That is as gifted as he was in his oratorical powers

And and you could even say that as a footnote that certainly set him apart from the pack No one had the oratorical gifts that Whitfield had in that day.

Nobody did he he had no equals in that Yeah, it's astonishing even scientifically how how far his voice carried which is one of the things that captivated the imagination of Benjamin Franklin Absolutely it did

But you know, but even with that even with that It that does not explain

That does not explain the attraction the appeal all of the people

Tens of thousands of people over 34 years of ministry being drawn to hear him every time wherever he was

There was there was just always a crowd of people and that kind of phenomena

Goes beyond the man in his natural gifting. That is

That is only accredited to God in what God was doing in Whitfield and how

God chose Very obviously how God chose to use Whitfield in a unique way that he was not using other men of God During that time both in America and Great Britain and so that would

I would say that would definitely be the second thing that would set him apart from the pack and then and then thirdly the third thing is

Would just be is is is enormous is enormous passion in zeal to spread the gospel

I mean Just to really just wear him wear himself out to death, which is quite literally what he did

He he literally just wore his body out physically Seeking to get the gospel to as many people as he could humanly reach and there just simply was no one

No one at that time. No one in that era who? who was carrying the gospel to the lengths that he did and and just Driven by a zeal that even his own contemporaries.

They all recognized that. I mean that that was not something that Later men in later

Generations would look back and recognize about Whitfield Whitfield's own contemporaries saw that in him

You know that he really was a man set apart as a true herald of the gospel

So those would be the three things that immediately come to my mind and number four, of course is the princess

Leia powdered wick Well If you could in a

Minute and a half just wrap up what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today about this great figure from history well,

I would say What what I would want most and and it had to be to two sides of the same coin and that is is

Is is fervent exaltation of Christ extolling Christ above all and Then on the flip side of that as I said earlier is is humility

To to be graced In in sanctification with with that with that kind of humility as he had

I mean that That should be something that all of us as Christians should strive to imitate in the faith of Whitfield that the

Lord would grow us and sanctify us more in The humility that we see in him with the God that we would have the same spirit and principle to say let my name be forgotten

If by that the name of Christ may be Glorified. Hey, man, and I want to make sure that all of our listeners have the necessary contact information for you

The website for the Providence Reformed Baptist Church in Pine Mountain, Alabama Is PR BC 1 6 8 9 org

PR for Providence Reformed BC for Baptist Church 1 6 8 9 org and the website for solid ground

Christian books, which carries a number of The printed or published works of our guests today is solid -ground -books .com

Solid -ground -books .com. We look forward to hearing updates from you on the publishing of this book on George Whitfield Thank you so much for being on the program today

I want to thank everybody who listened especially those who took the time to write in questions and I hope that you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far far greater

Savior Than you are a sinner. We look forward to hearing from you and your questions for our guests tomorrow on iron sharpens iron radio