The Function of Men and Women in the Church and in the Home (Part 2) | Theocast

Theocast

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:04

Hi, this is Justin. Today on Theocast is part two of a conversation that John and I had about men and women and how we relate to one another in the home and in the church.

00:14

In the first episode, we talked about things from a higher level and some theological considerations. We wanted to clarify a few things.

00:21

And now in the second portion of the conversation, we get a little bit more practical, a little more boots on the ground in the church and in the home and how we relate to one another as husbands and wives and brothers and sisters in the

00:31

Lord. And John and I even talk a little bit personally about our own congregations and our own households.

00:37

We appreciate you, the listener, very much. We're thankful, not only for the ways you encourage us, but we're thankful that you will listen to this podcast with grace and with charity, and we thank you for that in advance.

00:47

We hope that you're encouraged and helped by the conversation. We're excited to announce we have a brand new podcast available called

00:54

The Kingsmen Podcast. It's where we are reclaiming biblical manhood by training and equipping men for the work of the kingdom.

01:01

You can find it anywhere you download a podcast. You can also watch it on YouTube. We have new episodes that come out every

01:07

Monday. I think it's important that we see throughout the

01:23

Old Testament, as well as the New, that God is very concerned for women. And so even when it comes to a lot of the divorce laws in the

01:31

Old Covenant, you can read them, whether we're talking Deuteronomy 24 or any other number of places, the concern is to protect women from the abuse of men, wholesale.

01:42

Like that is really important. And I think we have to acknowledge that one of the results of the fall is, this is evident in the curse, is that men will tend to dominate, lord over, and abuse women.

01:56

And so the Lord is very concerned for these things. And we should be too, in the church.

02:02

We should be as pastors in the church. So I know even in our own position paper on divorce and remarriage, we're very clear about all these things, that the divorce laws that were given by God in a fallen world, given that divorce is going to happen and sin exists, they were to protect women and for the woman's benefit.

02:21

And I think that has to be remembered in this conversation, in particular, like we acknowledged from the outset, that there have been women who have been hurt over the years by male leadership in the church.

02:33

Because I'm thinking about a text like 1 Peter 3 and other places where heinously and lamentably women are told to remain in an abusive relationship in order to demonstrate that their hope is in God.

02:46

And to be clear there, he's not saying abusive, he's saying an unbeliever, not an abusive person. It's so bad.

02:52

I just want to be super clear that these things are absolutely grievous and horrible, and we need to remember this as we consider the trajectory of scripture and God's concern for women.

03:04

And we should echo that. So then another thing that I would say too, is in just one additional brief comment on Genesis chapter two, it's very clear in how

03:12

God makes creation and makes Adam and then makes Eve to help, like to be a companion and to be a person who would reign alongside

03:23

Adam. It's very plain that women like Eve have a very unique contribution to make to the marriage relationship.

03:33

Because a lot of times this is framed as like the woman's role, quote unquote, is to serve her husband and help him flourish as though that is her contribution.

03:43

I think that's really lamentable and bad. Women do not merely exist to serve and affirm the man.

03:49

They offer unique contribution. They offer personal and direct influence.

03:54

We're going to get into this more as we talk about even our own marriages. Women are allies, women are co -laborers, and women are co -heirs.

04:01

And we want to speak in these ways. And I was going to say this, women are much more involved in the early church, as we read in the pages of the

04:08

New Testament, than women are in the vast majority of conservative churches today. And that is unhelpful.

04:14

And you and I are going to talk about that more in a minute, too. I just wanted to go and say some of that now before we get into the stickier boots on the ground pieces.

04:21

So thank you for letting me do that. You're welcome. Well, some of what

04:26

I'm going to say is we have to use a lot of discretion and wisdom here, because I agree and I want to be careful that I'm not bringing the role of an elder into the role of the husband.

04:35

But when Paul says things like, as the church submits to Christ, so wives submit to their husbands and everything, that is on the heels of mutual submission.

04:45

And so there has to be an essence where there is one who carries the weight of responsibility for the benefit of the whole.

04:54

Exactly. So in other words, multiple times elders are described as carrying the weight of caring for people's souls and the protection of the gospel.

05:04

And then it says to the congregants, you need to do that in an understanding way for it's for your benefit to you that you do so.

05:13

And I think that language is similar in which when Paul is saying wives, you need to understand that your husband is the one who's carrying the weight of this.

05:24

And that doesn't mean, and we'll get into everything else that was said, that doesn't mean the wife is now another daughter.

05:32

And that's the thing about where I get agitated and where when it's being described by people that are out there, it sounds like basically if a man has three daughters, technically he has four because she needs to fall in line with the guy who's in charge.

05:46

And that is not how he's describing this. I think it's important that we look at it in the whole. Yet there is a structure to the home, but that structure is being said in such a way that the home is being led towards Christ.

05:59

And there's going to be one who's going to be held responsible for the home functioning in a way that reflects the kingdom of God.

06:10

And therefore men are to govern themselves in such a way that they are the prime example of what a servant, humble, meek, and open to reason should look like in that when you have the command for a man to love his wife as Christ loves the church, which is an impossible feat that you and I both understand, that's not going to happen.

06:29

But it becomes an understandable way in which, hey, listen guys, Christ has never been heavy handed with us.

06:36

And he laid down his life. It's like, men, lay your life down for your wife. That's what he's saying.

06:42

Well, and it's like, so again, husbands consider that and love your wife, but then wives consider the union of Christ and his church and be unified with your husband like that.

06:54

You know, that's the encouragement. And just another couple of comments on Ephesians 5, just to say it, like some really stupid things are said from this passage where, again, the analogy of Christ and the church breaks down at so many levels the way that we often seek to apply it, because a lot of times guys will look and they'll say, you know, you're the priest of your household, you're this, you're that, and husbands, your wife will be sanctified through you.

07:18

You will wash her with the water of the word and you will do this and this and this, and it's like, listen, only

07:23

Christ does that. And it's like, yeah, I trust that wives will be sanctified through the instrument of their husbands, just as it is true that husbands will be sanctified through their wives.

07:34

So let's stop being stupid in the way that we talk about some of these things, as though this only flows one direction.

07:40

Insane. No, we are not Jesus. Like, yeah, we're not called to be Christ. You and I could not be in ministry without our wives.

07:46

Well, brother, it's like, there are people literally who say, like, I've heard this before, like talking to little boys, talking to young men, teenagers, guys, isn't it incredible that one day you're going to grow up and you're going to be a little

07:59

Jesus for your wife? To which it's just like, huh? Like, what in the world are you talking about? It's like, look, if the wife's sanctification depends upon the husband,

08:08

God help every married woman on this planet. That's right. That's what I would say. And so let's be reasonable in the things that we conclude from passages like this.

08:16

Let's not divorce them from their context. I digress. Let's continue. Yeah. And so I will say when you understand, so I want to approach this in a positive because that's what it's for.

08:26

No, you're no, you've done a great job as far as like the pitfalls, but I want to approach this in a positive way in which when you think about all the benefits that are happening here, you have

08:36

Paul writing, for instance, in Ephesians and then Peter and first Peter, you have them writing to people who don't understand how the function of the kingdom works and the promise from Paul, it's like the kingdom produces peace, joy, and righteousness, right?

08:51

And so that's the hope and mentality of it being this in that you have the hope of Christ, the relationship with Christ, and then the outflow of Christ into the culture, and that comes through our church and that comes through our homes.

09:10

And so all he's saying is that when we align in these ways and you have a husband and a wife who are caring for each other in a way that reflects the relationship that they have in Christ, it becomes a place of peace, joy, and harmony.

09:24

This isn't, right. It's not authoritative. It's not authoritative in that the husband is telling the wife what to do.

09:31

So I know we probably should make this transition over what this looks like. We can talk a little bit about the church and then the home,

09:36

I think, just practically in our situations. Yeah. So like finish your thought. Yeah. So we just have to understand that flow in that the way in which

09:45

I would love and care for any woman in our congregation should be in a way that reflects the union that I have with Christ.

09:51

But then I have a specific and unique relationship. This is what he's saying, wives to your own husband. There's this unique relationship to where I think sometimes that the union of the home can be harder than the union of the church because there's so much intimacy that's there.

10:06

And there's so much occasion for wounds and hurt and sin and everything else. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit because we're well on our way here.

10:17

We're over 50 minutes in, but we've got a little bit of time left. And so let's talk a little bit, John, maybe more quote unquote personally.

10:26

Let's talk about our churches. Let's talk about our homes and how we as pastors in the church, but then how we as husbands, dads in our homes approach some of these issues.

10:35

Because I think this can maybe be helpful because let's be clear. There are some high level truths that the scripture communicates that we've tried to nuance at least somewhat today.

10:46

But then a lot of what you deal with, particularly in the home, you're dealing in wisdom and you're dealing in Christian freedom and that has to be maintained because whenever we start binding consciences and codifying everything, nothing good comes from that.

10:58

So as far as our churches are concerned, I'll go ahead and lead with this. And I think you and I agree on everything

11:05

I'm about to say, because we talked about it before. So at CBC, we affirm male only ordination for the office of elder.

11:14

And that is because of our understanding of 1 Timothy 2, 8 and following, and Paul's even appeal to what

11:22

I would again refer to the appeal to creation in terms of relations of origin. And also there's an appeal to Adam's priestly role in the garden.

11:31

So from a covenant of works perspective, Genesis 2, 8, Genesis 2, 15,

11:36

God puts the man in the garden and he puts Adam in the garden to work it and to keep it. And everybody agrees that that's priestly language.

11:45

So the exegesis of 1 Timothy 2, 8 and following where Paul is going to then argue for the qualifications, he's going to articulate the qualifications for the office of overseer.

11:54

But he does that in saying that he's appealing to creation, relations of origin, there's

11:59

Adam's priestly role. And then he's going to talk about qualifications for overseers. And women are not mentioned in that paragraph, in that pericope.

12:08

Then we though get down into the paragraph on deacons and women are mentioned in that paragraph.

12:14

And it's the generic word for woman that's raised it. Likewise, the women should be this way is how

12:20

I think that should be rendered. And so at our church, we affirm male only ordination for the office of elder.

12:25

We ordain men and women to the office of deacon. And then when it comes to anything else that unordained persons are doing outside of the gathered church context, because we have the office of elder, we have the gathered church context there in 1

12:38

Timothy 2, 3, where the shepherding and proclamation role would be reserved for those men called to that office and that task, right?

12:49

Outside of that, we got women doing all kinds of things, leading ministries, coordinating ministries, serving in all kinds of capacities.

12:58

Women read scripture, women pray corporately in our assemblies. All of that's going on.

13:04

And we always aim to have a posture in our local church where what we want to do is elevate not only the sisters, the brothers too, we want to elevate the service and the ministry of every saint.

13:15

And we want to elevate the ministry of the sisters in our congregation, rather than it always being a conversation framed in terms of what women cannot do.

13:25

Because that's sadly how this is often approached. This far and no further, right?

13:30

But rather it's no, let's elevate our sisters and affirm them and fan the flame of the gifts that they have and the ways that they are a blessing to this congregation.

13:40

And we as brothers and sisters in the Lord are going to serve together for the building up of this body for the honor of Christ.

13:46

Yeah, I think that what's as important is that where there are structures that cannot be moved, we can't allow culture to manipulate us there.

13:55

But at the same time, I think that we need to allow the heart of Christ and the church to govern us as well.

14:04

For an example, Justin, you and I work really hard, because I know we talked about this, to keep our preferences out of the congregation.

14:11

Because we have the loudest voice at times. We offend everyone's preferences at CBC, including mine.

14:17

Exactly. There's a lot of things that happen in our church that I don't prefer. Me too. And in my home, to be frank, there are a lot of things.

14:22

And brother, I get voted down on the elder board, too. Yeah, I'm one of the last three votes I've lost. On things that I think matter.

14:29

Exactly. But when you step back and say, listen, when Paul says to reflect

14:34

Christ is to prefer other people above yourself. And if I can do that without sinning, and I can do that without hurting them, meaning that I don't want to give someone preference and it's hurting them to do that.

14:46

Maybe I need to confront them and that this is a bad preference that you have. Whatever it may be.

14:53

But that is true. That form and function, like the command to consider others more significant than yourself, goes to the home, right?

15:03

Oh yeah, that's a huge thing. Exactly. To consider, like for you and me, to consider Michelle and Judith as more significant than ourselves.

15:12

Right. So I think this is true. Like, for instance, we just put together a finance and building team and I said anybody can volunteer.

15:18

And it is without us trying. It is mixed between male and female. I think it's almost half and half.

15:24

I did not try to do that. I just said, who has the talent and desire to do this? And let's go and let's do it.

15:32

And what's also funny, and I got a little bit rebuked on this, is that we had a massive age disparity, too.

15:37

We had people in their early 20s and then people who've been around finances for their entire life, you know. And so we would tend to lean towards, well, we should only just have the people who are older.

15:46

And the rebuke of that was, no, we should have people who have perspectives that they live in the time now that they're with.

15:53

In other words, the point of it was is that we have to be careful in creating rules and regulations where there aren't any.

16:01

And at the same time, not so I'm going to allow this to go down in that in the church where it says, submit and allow others' preferences to be more significant than you.

16:11

That up plays in the home as well. Like, why would we disconnect that? And the way I would give this as an illustration in my own home,

16:17

Justin, is that, go ahead. No, I was going to say maybe a brief insertion, because I know you and I agree on this too.

16:25

What's sad to me is that when people want to talk about marriage or family, they always go to these isolated texts rather than applying the law and the gospel broadly to every relationship and then thinking, okay, what is

16:36

God's law? How does God's law guide third use? How does God's law guide me here? What does the gospel, as I reflect on the gospel and apply it in my own mind and heart, how is that going to apply and how is that going to affect all of my relationships?

16:49

But then I think about, all right, what are the most significant relationships I have? Well, the most significant relationship I have is with my spouse.

16:55

That's right. And then if I have kids, that also is another primary, very unique relationship.

17:02

And so, of course, the law and the gospel broadly should affect how I interact with any person, but how much more so then should it affect how

17:12

I interact with my spouse and with my children? And I think that's where people sometimes miss it, and that's what you're arguing for.

17:18

It's like, if this is good in the church to consider one another as more significant than yourselves, of course this is good in the home, because this is a truth of God's law and gospel that need to be applied in the home.

17:29

Yeah, and just a brief insertion. Yeah, and going back to the illustration about it being a unique relationship, you know,

17:35

Paul literally says your body is not your own, you know. And that can't be said of any other relationship. No, and so immediately, men, you don't do things based upon your desire, your pleasure, because listen, that's not your body to do that.

17:48

That body actually belongs to her, you know, and vice versa, same thing for the wife. And so there's this, what's happening,

17:56

Justin, is that we go into our marital relationships, bringing with us our own preferences, our own pleasures, and our own ideologies, and Christ has to come and completely turn them upside down.

18:08

I mean, why else does he say, don't be foolish? Why? Because people were being foolish. They were allowing the world to dictate the structure of their home instead of Christ dictating it.

18:19

So that means, go ahead. No, well, okay, let me just say this now. So I know something that has been helpful for me, even in my own marriage, and I think this is universally applicable, which is why

18:29

I'm going to say it now, is what you were just saying. I want to pick up on it. I think, sadly, too, a lot of times we all approach marriage in this very self -centered, transactional sense, that my spouse exists to help me realize the dreams

18:43

I have for my life, my spouse exists to satisfy me in this way or the other, et cetera, et cetera, maybe pointedly in the marriage bed, but also in other ways.

18:53

It's just really bad when, in reality, for me, as I think about my wife, I want to think of her as my sister in Christ, my co -heir in Christ, as one who in the resurrection will reign with me, and we will together enjoy the fellowship of all of God's people under Christ, and it's going to be glorious, and she will be with me in that.

19:16

That is ultimate. Our marriage, while great, is not ultimate. It's temporary. It is temporary.

19:22

Our parenthood, while great, while significant, is temporary, because these four souls that we've been entrusted with are also, we trust, united to Christ and are going to also enjoy the new heavens and the new earth alongside us, even though we were their parents, et cetera.

19:42

That's an important perspective in thinking about our wives as sisters and co -heirs and ones who will reign with us.

19:49

They do not exist to meet our needs, to satisfy us, or to just serve us in that sense.

19:55

That's absurd. We want to love and serve and sacrifice and honor our wives in that regard, from that perspective.

20:04

There's more that we're going to say in a minute about how we make decisions and how we parent and all this kind of thing, but that needs to be said for now.

20:11

Well, I think that what's glorious about marriage is that it's a unique opportunity to have joy in a way in that you get to sacrifice your life and see the benefits of your sacrifice played out on the person whom you're loving.

20:31

It's very rare, Justin, when I'm sitting in a room with a couple that's struggling, that they're fighting for the bottom.

20:37

They're not. They're fighting for the top. That's where the problem becomes, where neither of them are trying to out -serve each other.

20:42

Their preference and their pleasure is more important than anything else. It's preference. It's pleasure. Then even when it comes to, morally speaking, they're both convinced they have the higher ground.

20:53

Then you'll hear things like, well, she's just not submitting. I'm like, well, bro, you've not given her a reason to.

20:59

What you're reflecting has nothing to do with Christ. What's interesting when

21:04

I read these, I said this to our ladies in a gathering that we did, and I described what the husband should look like.

21:13

I said, any ladies have a problem with living with that guy? All the ladies were like, absolutely not. Who doesn't want to live with a kind and gentle, meek, humble, loving, gracious man?

21:24

No one would say, no, I don't want anything to do with that. It's not a man that's only going to say yes to everything she wants.

21:30

The point of it is that there's a reflection of the nature and person of Christ in this relationship.

21:39

If you're new to Theocast, we have a free ebook available for you called Faith vs. Faithfulness, A Primer on Rest.

21:46

And if you've struggled with legalism, a lack of assurance, or simply want to know what it means to live by faith alone, we wrote this little book to provide a simple answer from a

21:55

Reformed confessional perspective. You can get your free copy at theocast .org

22:00

slash primer. Let's talk a little bit, like, so even in our own marriages, you know,

22:07

I know that you and I, we've already stated it. I want to say it again. You and I both view our marriages as symbiotic relationships.

22:13

And what that means is I can speak, I'll speak in first person, so can you. So I understand that Michelle and I manage our home.

22:23

Michelle and I parent our children. Michelle and I make decisions. We come together on the decisions that we make.

22:31

And we both, depending upon the circumstance, depending upon the issue at hand, depending upon our own.

22:37

So this again, we, we both, we're different people. I'm a man, she's a woman, but we're different people.

22:43

We have different contributions that we bring. We have different gifts, different skill sets. All of that's true.

22:49

This is true of every marriage. And so when Michelle and I come together to make decisions, we take all of that into consideration.

22:55

Here are areas where I, I may be particularly convicted or I feel more strongly than she does.

23:00

And it's a wisdom call. And maybe I've got, you know, more developed thought here, or maybe this is just part of my skill set and falls then under my purview in a way.

23:10

Cause it's like, well, I'm just better at that over here. And Michelle's got other gifts that I don't have. And she's going to use them over here for the good of our household.

23:17

And so there's mutual affirming, there's mutual submission and there's mutual deference going on in terms of how we interact and make decisions.

23:28

And I think that's healthy. I think it's normal. I think it's wise and we both love and respect one another in that relationship.

23:38

And we both are happy to use language of, of headship and all of that kind of stuff, but we don't misunderstand it to being this thing that it's not.

23:46

And there's never been a time. I just, this is, I don't think awkward to say on a podcast. There's never been a time when

23:53

I've looked at Michelle and said, Michelle, you need to submit to me. And there's, and there, you know, and there's never a time, you know, like we just don't talk in these terms.

24:01

Like I'm the coach and I call the plays and then Michelle and the kids execute. Like that's just lunacy, you know?

24:07

And so it's a, it's a symbiotic, mutual complimentary, mutually complimentary relationship.

24:13

And there's mutual respect and submission and deference going on. And I also understand that I, I am prepared and my main objective in my marriage and in being a dad is to love and to serve, right.

24:27

And to elevate my wife and my children and to lay myself down to sacrifice for their good.

24:35

Now I'm a sinner and I fail in that, but that's the objective. And that's the approach. As commissioned by your Lord. Yeah.

24:41

Yeah. Yeah. I would agree with that. I think when you take all the language of who we are in Christ and how we function with each other, and even in the marriage bed, when you talked about your body's not your own, stop treating it like it is.

24:51

Sure. Um, that, that, that, that, that does come into play. So, you know,

24:57

Judith and I were celebrating 20 years of marriage this year. Um, we have not always,

25:02

I have not always done this well. I have not led my home in such a way where my wife would say, yeah, he was kind and he was compassionate.

25:11

He was considerate of me. You know, he, he demonstrated what it would be like to, you know, in my early years,

25:17

I didn't know what I was doing. I was trying to look at what other people were doing and I had no theological bearing on what does it look like to care for my wife in an understanding, loving and serving, servant, servant attitude.

25:30

I just didn't know that, you know. Um, and as I have grown in my understanding of the gospel, the law, gospel distinction, the role of the kingdom and the role of the church, it has really shaped and changed who

25:43

I am and, and my role as, uh, not only a sinner saved by Christ and a church member, but also as a husband.

25:50

So when I look at it, um, when I look at my wife, she's, she's one with me, therefore she's significant, right?

26:00

Like I really care about what she thinks about what kind of home we're going to buy, what kind of car we're going to buy, you know, the major decisions in life, how we're going to care for our children.

26:09

You know, what kind of tone does our home have? It matters to me because she is one, a lady who loves

26:15

Christ, who has talents and skills I do not have. Like when it comes down to the design of our home, like it's all you, baby.

26:22

You don't want to, to me, it's like plain, you know, white, black, we're fine. Uh, and, and in the end,

26:28

I don't mind giving preference to my wife because I understand where this, this is helpful because she has perspectives that I don't have right now,

26:39

I'm going to say some things that, you know, we'll probably, I'm going to be shot at for whatever reason, but I think that the, the language that's being used by Peter and Paul, when it talks about submission is that they're describing it in such a way that, that ladies, your husband carries the weight and the responsibility of the direction of the home.

27:02

Like they're supposed to be guiding in parenting. Uh, and they should,

27:08

I should say, I know the word lead is such a trigger word, but there's an essence where they're the ones who are, are, are, um, carrying the weight of, of look, it's there, there, there's a role within the church.

27:21

There's a role within the kingdom and gentlemen, you need to feel the weight of being the lead servant, the one who's reflecting mercy and kindness and gentleness, who is showing what it looks like to be one who trusts in Christ in all of the areas of their life.

27:37

And I don't know how else you interpret when it says wives submit to your husbands while he's trying to carry the weight of this, right?

27:43

This is, um, and again, Justin, you and I agree that we have to be careful in using the elder role, but that same language is given to when it's talking about the congregants submitting to the elders and doing it in an understanding way, uh, that I think is the kind of language that they're using.

28:02

They're not the same. Okay. It's not that I'm guiding the soul of my wife as if the elders are guiding the souls of the churches.

28:09

It's not one for one. And I, you and I may articulate it in slightly different ways, but I affirm headship in the home means it's a call to love, sacrifice, and service.

28:19

It's a call to elevate your wife as a husband. And it is a, it's a responsibility for the wellbeing of the whole.

28:28

I affirm all of those things. How would you use another word for headship? Like what was another, what would be another word you would use that is because headship is such an older word.

28:34

How would you use a modern word for people? It's a tough question, man. I would go to headship because of the, because it's a biblical word and there is, you know,

28:44

Christ is head, the husband is head, and I use it because I do think, I don't know that it equates one -to -one to leadership in my mind in every scenario.

28:53

That's why I'm hesitant to use the word lead as a synonym for head. And so you, and that's, that's okay.

29:00

I mean, this is fine for people to hear us process this in real time. Um, and I, you know, that's where I stand today on how

29:06

I try to reflect on these matters and affirm the clear distinctions between men and women as revealed in the scripture.

29:12

Um, just a couple additional comments popped in my head that are quick. If you don't, you good, you want to say something?

29:18

I just, to that point though, what I wanted to say is that when my wife and I come to in a disagreement, it's not that because I'm the head or I'm leading that my, my vote gets 51%.

29:30

And I think it's dumb. Yeah. It's dumb. Right. People think like that. No, it is. And I think it's important. Like, well, what happens when the two of you don't agree?

29:36

I said, well, then we need to work on it. We keep talking. Right. We keep talking until we come together. And this is where the church is so vital because we can use wisdom within the congregation to help us through these things.

29:46

The reason you say it, you kind of illustrated it already, because this is a common way this is described too. Well, it's mutual, you know, and you come together, but then if you can't, you know, if there's, if you're in disagreement, then the husband's, the husband's opinion goes, and it's like, uh, no,

30:02

I understand that we come together and we keep working at it and we keep talking it through until we reach a place of unity where we can look at one another and say, yeah, this is what we're going to do, even if we don't.

30:12

Both feel great about it, but this is, we together have determined this is the course of action. And that's what we should do.

30:19

And so there's a mutuality to it. Exactly. Yet that doesn't mean like the, the husband's still the one who's filling the weight of the responsibility.

30:26

And that's just, I don't know how else to describe that. Right. And it's not that wives don't feel weight.

30:32

Of course they do. But there is a sense in which, again, I think that male headship in the home means that, that there's a weight of the responsibility of the wellbeing of the whole is something that the husband carries.

30:42

Which I think the hardest thing for that is to not press in your preference on your family.

30:48

It is. And it's hard to then not, cause we do this in a fallen world. As soon as we say that, that a husband uniquely is to bear the weight of the wellbeing of the whole, immediately we move over into this, uh, inferior, superior dynamic and like subordinate dynamic where it's like, you know, he's in charge and, and that's not, again, we don't need to go there immediately.

31:08

Just really quickly. A couple of other comments on just marriage relationship for me.

31:14

I know there are times, I know this is true for you, because this is back to that Genesis two piece, the way Eve was made to compliment

31:20

Adam and reign with him and, and, and have unique influence and unique contribution.

31:28

That's her personal contribution. Um, that's true in my marriage. There are plenty of times where Michelle has corrected me, where Michelle has opened my eyes to blind spots that I have, where she has been incredibly helpful to me in terms of my perspective on things, right.

31:46

And that correction, that influence, her wisdom, you know, her skill, all of this is greatly needed in our home.

31:56

And, and I want to not only just affirm and elevate her, like on this podcast today, but my mission as her husband is to do that in life holistically.

32:06

And I think this should be the goal of pastors in the church to elevate the saints holistically, but then to elevate our sisters in Christ, because there is a change,

32:17

John, you and I agree in this, like the way women are talked about in the new covenant era is different in terms of it's no longer in relation to having children because like in the old

32:27

Testament, it's almost all like she's the, she had these kids and this and that and the other, because there is a sense in which in the old covenant community of Israel, Israel is exists in part to get us to Christ.

32:39

And it's the line of promise and all of these kinds of things. But then in the new covenant, women are talked about in very different ways.

32:47

It's now service in the body of Christ, right? It's now as sisters in the Lord, it's co -heirs in Christ, and it's, they're a part of the mission of the church alongside their brothers and that's how we should, it's not in marriage, it's not in childbearing anymore, right?

33:03

There is an appeal to creation in terms of some unique, like relations of origin, Adam's priestly role and what that means in the church, but then man, we elevate our sisters in every conceivable way and that's our posture.

33:17

And we seek to protect all in the congregation who are in vulnerable positions where they might be abused.

33:23

And we certainly have an eye out for our sisters in the Lord who are undergoing abuse.

33:29

Certainly at the hands of men, we want to protect that and step in and intercede and stand in the gap.

33:37

Yeah. And I, and again, just because something has been done wrong, does it mean that the instructions, I don't know, sometimes people are like, yeah, well, that's not what that means.

33:45

And, you know, I know that's just, we even say this in scripture where, you know, a passage of verse will say something and we're like, well, that in context, and I would agree that in context, you know, this has been used to say, well, the wife just needs to submit to the husband, but that's not what he said.

34:02

Okay. He said it in a context where there was much more said than just carte blanche, wives, you got to do what your husband says.

34:12

Yeah, that's not, that's not the tone that it came in, but yet there is this structure that's there where I love how you said that where the head of the home is, is feeling that weight of, of protection and responsibility to care.

34:29

I just said the response, the, the, the wellbeing of the home, the wellbeing of the home. Yeah. And they feel the weight of that, you know, even when he says that, you know, if a man's not willing to work to provide for his home, he's worse than an unbeliever.

34:41

So, um, you know, I mean, this doesn't mean just super quick. I mean, we, it's not that women, so like my wife educated, um, you know, is, is industrious and the

34:51

Proverbs 31 cents generates income for our home. I mean, all these things, like none of these things are out of bounds, you know?

34:58

I mean, I think it's sad that we have often codified it, uh, to mean that here's, here are the things that women can and cannot do, should and should not do.

35:05

Um, I think that as we survey the scriptures, not only does God have concern for women, but women are elevated in so many ways.

35:13

And the Proverbs 31 woman is a real woman and she is doing all kinds of stuff in the home, but she's also going out surveying and buying property.

35:21

She's making things and selling them in the marketplace. I mean, there is a lot going on that this, that this woman is doing.

35:27

And so we affirm our sisters in all those ways too. Yeah. Yeah. And the last thing I'll say here is that, um, we have allowed our culture to define what is a successful marriage and a successful life.

35:37

And somehow we have downplayed women who care for their children as if they are lesser citizens and they are less influential.

35:46

You are, you are literally influencing children for the future and for the kingdom to not downplay the role of parenthood.

35:55

And so, you know, I've had... And that goes for men too. I mean, being a parent as a man, it's not just about your vocation, bro.

36:02

It's like being a parent is a huge thing. You know, my wife and I had this conversation and we'll have it together on our podcast coming up, but you know, she was a nurse for nine years, very successful, made a lot of money.

36:13

And then, you know, we started having children and when I went into ministry here in Tennessee on her own decision, she's like,

36:19

Hey, I think I'm just going to stay home with the kids. And when she started to feel how people looked at her differently, you know, they were real respective of her when she had this powerful, you know, rising career as a nurse.

36:30

And now they're just like, Oh, you're just a stay home mom. And she would hear you're just a stay home mom.

36:35

And as those who understand, we cannot allow the culture to determine what is and what is not acceptable in the eyes of God.

36:44

And this is an issue of Christian liberty. And I'll pound the desk all day long in terms of, I mean, like, so our situation is a little different.

36:50

You know, my wife had a very successful career. When we met, we got married a little bit later in life. And so we started having kids quickly and she couldn't work the same way she used to, it just wasn't feasible.

37:01

And, you know, I was church planting. And like, so I worked outside the church and was getting paid by the church and life was bananas for a long time.

37:08

We had several kids, but now our kids are getting a little bit older. And my wife is happy. Like cost of living is high in Asheville.

37:15

And there's a lot of considerations there at a wisdom level. Michelle has always enjoyed work and she's enjoyed education.

37:21

And so she's pursuing both of those things for the good of our household. And these are decisions we've made together.

37:28

Some people, you know, even in the church, some people look at that as a great thing and are affirming of her in that, and others look at that with great concern, you know, is the end.

37:39

And so you deal with this stuff. That's right. And that's where, again, why this is why I brought it up in the first place. It's an issue of Christian freedom.

37:46

And if we're going to be committed to that, then we've got to hold the line on a lot of these decisions that husbands and wives make together.

37:55

And we cannot just codify life and we can't be so heavy handed and exacting and suspicious all the time of how all this stuff is going on.

38:03

Anyway, that maybe is another pod for another day, but it's related to what we're talking about. I think going back to your illustration with divorce, and this will be one of the last thoughts

38:11

I have. I know this is an extra long episode. We're dividing it into two. In that, you know, there's a mercy upon the sinful culture that while we await the restoration of all things, that there are going to be times like, for instance, the husband was well and fit when first married and now is sick in bed and cannot provide for his family.

38:33

He is not a non -believer in that. He is. It's the wife in our particular culture is going to need to work.

38:40

And that's not there's nothing wrong with that. And sometimes we get all we get.

38:46

We miss the point and we miss the frailty of what's happening. And there are times and situations where I think we need to be sensitive and a little bit more open to reason where the

38:58

Bible has definitely allowed that to be the case. And to say that women didn't work in the New Testament, I mean, there was a woman who very much funded the church plant and the financial prosperity of the gospel was a woman.

39:12

You know, exactly. Right. So to say, you know, whether she was married or not, we don't know. We don't know if she was married.

39:19

It's at best an argument from silence. Right. But the point of the point of all of this is that I think we need to understand the main mission, which then we all submit, which is submission.

39:31

It makes sense. We submit to the mission, which is Christ and his kingdom and all of life, our churches, the way in which we function in government and the way in which we function in our homes are all submission to the main mission of Christ.

39:44

When we are even to use the illustration of the body of Christ, last comment here. I mean, Paul uses the illustration of a physical body and how there are various parts that serve various purposes and perform different functions, but we're all of equal value.

39:57

I think that category has to still exist for us, that men are not women and women are not men, husbands are not wives and wives are not husbands, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

40:05

Um, you know, elders and congregants and the whole thing in the kingdom of Christ, we're all co -heirs, we're brothers and sisters in the

40:13

Lord, and we're all going to operate in different capacities with different functions. We ought not be reductionistic and we ought not look at this in this hierarchical, weird, subordinate, inferiority, superiority way that we do.

40:25

And we should pursue unity in the spirit and the bond of peace, because that's the goal in the church.

40:30

And that should be the goal in the home. That is in one sense, a piece, a part of the church and in the church and the home are yet distinct.

40:40

And so, uh, we could talk sometime maybe about that, about how the, the, uh, the church has a role to play and the family has a role to play and we ought not conflate the two and we ought not be seeking, the church ought not usurp the role of the home and vice versa.

40:55

The home does not usurp the role of the church anyway. And often we lose the structure of it and the home becomes the primary focus and not, and you know, and you have parents wanting to baptize their children and all kinds of things, all kinds of things.

41:10

Well, not everything that could be said was said. And, um, I know that we will, this is not sufficient to answer everyone's question.

41:17

We thought we would come at this and give you a perspective in tone to continue this conversation.

41:24

And continue, let's continue the dialogue and let's bear with one another as we seek better understanding. That's right.

41:29

And I think there's probably more that will come. Um, my, my wife and I will be speaking to this, um, after these episodes come out on Outside Eden, if you want to listen to that there, uh, just from her perspective.

41:39

And Justin and I are very sensitive to this. Um, we're trying to protect our hearts and protect our churches at the same time.

41:46

So just please hear our hearts. Yeah. If you disagree with us, please, um, do so, do so with meekness and gentleness, that would be our request.

41:55

So, yeah. And for all those out there who, who are hurting, uh, we grieve with you and we lament with you.

42:01

And, um, I know John feels this way and his elders, and I know our elders do.

42:07

Uh, I do that we desire above all things for our churches to be safe places for, for the saints and, uh, where we are.

42:14

Yeah. We receive Christ in word and sacrament where there's love and charity and unity that permeates the whole thing.

42:20

So, man, speaking of church, there's a couple of other resources that are available to you. If you have not utilized them yet on our website, we have a church finder that has over 50 churches on there now worldwide.

42:30

There's, um, we have one that's outside the United States now. If you'd like to submit your church to that or find a church in a local area that would love to preach to you the gospel that's available to you as well.

42:40

And, uh, pray for it. Grace reform network, graceformedetwork .org. Justin and I are working hard, uh, as much as we can to get that up and running.

42:49

Um, it's not an official network yet, but yet there are many who are excited. And if you have not learned about that,

42:54

I would encourage you to do so. So you can pray for Justin and I, as we seek to, uh, encourage like -minded believers in churches and plant more churches.

43:02

Uh, so in re in relation to that, we'd put you to those. We typically do an additional podcast for those who support us called

43:08

Simple Reformanda. And, uh, we just understood that there was no way we were going to be able to do that additional podcast and cover this sufficiently.

43:16

So, but if you'd like to engage in this conversation, we do have an app and that app is a great way to go in and ask questions and interact with Justin and I.

43:24

And, uh, that's a part of the Simple Reformanda program along with some educational material that's coming your way. So, well,

43:30

Justin, uh, this is one of many topics that are a little bit spicy that we're going to cover here and there that it's a little, a little bit off from what we normally do.

43:38

I know we have something on theonomy coming down the pipe, so stay tuned for that. And, uh, any last words before I close it out?

43:45

I don't think so. I just, yeah, I pray. I pray for good things from this and, and I pray for continued conversations where we can sharpen one another and bear with one another as we all seek to understand these things better and acknowledge that we're influenced by any number of things and how we, we all are seeking to be faithful to Christ and faithful to the scriptures.