Cultish: Looking Into YWAM (Youth With A Mission) - Part 2

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Cultish: Looking Into YWAM (Youth With A Mission) - Part 3

00:00

All right, welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults. My name is Jeremiah Roberts One of the co -hosts here.

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I am joined in person With my favorite trusted co -host and super sleuth

00:12

Andrew super sleuth of the show is good to see you face -to -face Yeah, it is awesome a little different in the

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Heron versus Harriman, Utah So I'm glad you got to be here in person this very important episode. We are joined here once again by Haley and Alex So good very good and this episode is brought to you by dr.

00:30

Pepper Okay, so that is you live

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Yeah, so you have that to fuel yourself into this very important conversation so let's just jump right into it we are talking towards the end about recruiting practices or how people get

00:55

Into why wham so one of the things you guys mentioned just give me your thoughts when it comes to people who get

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Who come there, but maybe? They're sent there for the wrong reasons as if they're wanting.

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Hey, but parent Maybe it's a situation parents like I'm gonna send them I'm gonna send them to youth with a mission that way they can get their act together

01:12

You know, they're rebelling at home or whatever and that natural boot camp. Yeah spiritual camp, right? And so you just expand upon what you told me last night about that about why some of the different variables about why people might

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Get sent there. Maybe you sent me before the wrong reasons. Tell us about that Yeah, I mean, I feel like some people can be on like on their last strand with Christianity, right?

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Like they they've grown up in the church. They've grown up, you know, like hearing about things about God and They they're kind of at their last strand

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And my point was like, you know, I think sometimes people can join an organization like why I am they could see that You know, maybe if they've even heard other people say oh my goodness

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I found so much purpose in like Meaningfulness, which you absolutely can in like an organization like why

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I'm a lot of services involved but a lot of people can join that just to feel a void that they're like Seeking out there there

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It's kind of like their last strand and they could have unmet needs or or even I haven't really heard it

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And maybe one of you guys have but I just know that some people For me

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I went because I grew up doing missions trips And I really was I just have a love for people.

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I love people a lot and I can talk to pretty much anyone and I I love people and so I wanted to go and just like expand my

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Horizons and just learn how to share the gospel, even though I'd already learned how to do that. But um, yeah,

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I guess I've seen people like try to get their lives turned around a lot of people that I've heard, you know we're addicted to drugs or alcohol like before why

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I am and then they went there it was almost like a Detox in a way, but I don't know if you have well

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So for me, I actually ended up going there as a last resort because for me

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Like I was raised going to church But the big issue for me is that when

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I had gone there the year before I'd heard the gospel heard repentance for the first Time and so I repented and believed But then

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I came back to the US and I was alone Like no one came alongside me to help me grow my faith And so I was

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I was really struggling and I felt like far way deeper into sins that I hated more than I ever had before because well the enemy obviously does not want me to be walking in a way that honors

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Christ and So from and you know There'd been thoughts of like suicide and everything like that So I was like God like maybe

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I distinctly remember when I got there at one point I was sitting on a bench. I'm like God I'm here for like five and a half months

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You have that much time to change my life Like if if nothing happens, like I'm gonna die not saying

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I'm gonna kill myself I'm just gonna like I will not live like it's just not gonna happen and so I went there as a last resort because I was like these people seem to know something about God because they're you know,

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They prioritize prayer and that was something that you know, no one had ever been like Hey, like actively like spend time with other people praying together

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You know set like set five minutes aside a day and just pray together. That's something that never happened before So that's why I went back.

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I went there as a last resort so Wow Yeah, so anything about this too.

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I was thinking about the story of you know, the catch -me -outside girl the catch -me -outside.

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How about that? Oh, you know that one? There's a point to this this isn't just like random like 80 demo even though I'm fully capable of that But in when she was on.

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Dr. Phil, you know, she was this rebellious, you know teen who just was on Dr. Phil just happened to go viral But and I think they had two different episodes they did and in between the two they sent her to some sort of like boot camp to kind of like no go it was sort of like a rehab to kind of get herself together and and even in that situation, you know, she came back and she just It was it was she was who she was even all the more

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She became this like micro celebrity and now she has like her own music, which is awful Yeah, but she was like one example of just you know

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One of the many boot camps out there to like hey get that kid there and and get their act together for sure

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And so I could see though how people could kind of use that as a catalyst for sure, so when it comes to also

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We talked about this in the last episode And you're asking as well to some questions people had when it comes to the curriculum because we're using another aspect of a cult

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Is that you'll have you'll have definitively centralized? Curriculum that comes authoritatively from the top -down and so, you know, for example when you look at Mormonism When you actually look at what's what's good definitive

05:34

Mormon doctrine. How do you how do you deal with that? Well, that's usually through literature that's written by is published from the official church by Mormons for Mormons So that's that bit so that's something that's authoritative or again

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If you look at the infrastructure of Scientology and you look at the official manuals of how to be, you know Ot5 or ot6 or an ot7 you have centralized teaching organization about how you progress up the wall

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And that's always the case when it comes to that because they want to be cross denominational and you have the different DTS do we see a

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Centralization around their teachings or again? Is it is it broadened and is it broad?

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Well, let's let's unravel that a little bit more Yeah, oh, I mean there's some central things that they do want everyone to learn but then each base is different and its focuses

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I mean because you know ours focused on art So there's definitely things that we focused on that would never even been mentioned at another base and because we focus on those things

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There was things that we were never never never mentioned to us just because we didn't have time, right? and I would also say to that You know

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I took that point each base is so different that Because of the different focuses and just because of the different directors again the directors

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I feel like have a lot more say and a lot more Influenced by those that they have like accountable or like whatever location they're at, you know

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They have to have like different accountability with different people within the culture and stuff And so I think just depending on what the needs are like of that community.

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It's almost like they kind of I Guess like for example in in our location arts happen to be like a really big way that unites the people but I would say if We were to go do that in the middle of Iowa.

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I would say that that would We were by Iowa so I can say that Yeah, go ahead.

07:23

What are you gonna know? I'm just coming. Oh, yeah, just about my yeah, Iowa thing. Yeah Well, you're great.

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We're not trashing you a little bit. I still yeah. Anyway, um, I have some beef with it, but it's okay So anyway, it's it's

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I I'm still trying to distinct You know a lot of the things that like I we personally encountered like whether it was cultural whether it was an actual

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YWAM thing I think that's been a big question but I think that's what a lot of people question when they've had a

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DTS as well is like was that and I think that's where the gray lines are because I feel like there isn't a lot of In my opinion like organization or like structure within I feel like it's so broad

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I feel like each base is it's kind of its own empire in a way I say that not saying that like it's an empire, but you know what

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I mean? It's like each each thing It's an individual. So it's almost like it could be like anything like a

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Jimmy John's franchise Yes, and chick -fil -a or something, right? I mean you could have you could have very rough well run

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Store, or you could have one where the manager is awful You know and and all of a sudden, you know, they're they're not they're not following the procedures of how you're supposed to cook the food

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Yeah, or preserve the food. So all of a sudden this one location is People are getting reviews.

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Oh, I got food poisoning. Yeah. Well, it's not because you know, Jimmy John's has this super authoritative infrastructure We're gonna tell me we have great sandwiches and they're gonna get sick.

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Yeah. Yeah. I know this is the best example, but you know, but then You know that but it's just these people this these but this particular chain is not running well and again

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That's what makes this whole thing complex is because even in this guy see you've got some stuff pulled up here Is that when you look at the

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DTS? it's decentralized and so it varies from base to base that doesn't mean that in areas where there's theological distortions and hurt and That sort of spiritual abuse comes as a byproduct of that that doesn't discount make any less serious, right?

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but that's something that is again is problematic with labeling it just my perspective under that category as a

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Definitive cult because it's not centralized from the top down.

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It's Decentralized. Yeah, that's kind of my take out the get -go. Yeah, there's almost a there's a decentralization from Lauren Cunningham I'd say in a sense, but there's supposed to be a centralization around the

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Word of God Right, but each individual base is not necessarily decentralized because there is still a leader of that base, right?

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so the decentralization is essentially from The organization as a whole in their authority.

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I say they still would have authority to close YWAM, but what I find interesting is that you can't necessarily have true

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Decentralization in in leadership like that's not how leadership works. There's always like some form of centralization unless you have

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Multiple people, you know holding people accountable to the Word of God Yeah, so it seems like in a sense there some things get overlooked, right?

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But um, what's interesting to me is that there's there's foundational values of YWAM You can go read read it on their website

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My question would be is are those values did they come from Lauren Cunningham, right?

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Did they come from visions, right? Did they come from? How God may speak to him because the question would be well

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What if these visions or how God spoke to him is hurting people? Yeah, then did it really come from God, right?

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Right. Is it really than a good thing? Right, you know what? I mean like I find that kind of interesting to think about because in one way with YWAM you can go

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Well, you know, we wouldn't really learn too much about Lauren Cunningham here We didn't really focus on it. But at the core you follow all of his foundational values

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Mm -hmm, so that's that's kind of like a tactic in a sense Well, actually, you don't really know that you're not necessarily following the Word of God You're actually maybe following Lauren Cunningham and not know it.

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Yeah, you know, I mean, yeah Yeah, and I think that is a question that is still kind of circulating in my head because it's like you know,

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I looked at the the different things on their website and you know, like family values and like Intercession like they have scriptures that go with it and kind of like to your point where it's like, okay

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Yeah, but if how did he get to those conclusions? Like you could easily like go and like just look up scriptures and just add that to anything

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Like what actually inspired him to like utilize those scriptures as opposed to other ones and I think the question that I have also is

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I guess I I don't know the answer if like Lauren, you know came up with those values It looks like it was written out in 2018 by a

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Hamilton guy but yeah, that that's a question that I have but also You know,

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I think when I think about YWAM and just this whole entire like situation Especially ever since I read your guys's post and just other people's experiences with YWAM, I've always thought like You know,

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I think the heart behind YWAM kind of like we addressed in the beginning It's it's good. Like I would say like it's a sweet It's a good sweet thought but I think a lot of these questions that we don't have answers to and a lot of the hurt

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I mean, there's there's a lot of accounts that aren't taken and that's that's where I'm like, okay Yes, like I believe that you know

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God is sovereign over everything but also it's like how much of this is because of a lack of Structure and a lack of people actually following the original design in these scriptures because I don't know

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I think Alex and I were talking this afternoon We we weren't told even you know If we did have a situation happen with a leader or anything, like we don't we didn't have anywhere to go

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Yeah, so from what I've been told I talked to like a Someone who used to be a bass leader and he said that it is required like by the

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YWAM organization that every single director Establishes a like board of directors that is made up of nine people three three and three three people that are like staff on the bass three people that are like familiar with the culture and I guess

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There's even some sort of I guess preference that they're not pastors Which to me seems a little weird that you'd think you'd want spiritually sound people to you know

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Be on this board and then the other three are leaders at different bases like it like a different country So a completely different culture so that you can

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I guess the idea is to like Like eliminate cultural bias and stuff which sounds great to an extent

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I don't think you can necessarily go to the Bible to prove that's board of directors structure, right?

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but even like It's at least something but things we I didn't even know about any of this until literally today when

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I talked to the guy Yeah, like supposedly we were supposed to like this pose like he said that it's required

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But then again because everything's so decentralized It's hard to like someone you could even like if someone's not doing you say oh you need to do that But then there's not really any way to hold them

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I kind of like make sure they're doing that right and so even if like I don't even know if there was one for our Base, maybe there was if there was we weren't given their contact info

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So if something like really really really bad it happened like it's like a really bad form of abuse

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There would have been nothing we could have done, right? Yeah, and even when it comes to authority and I was thinking about this too because I mean what we're seeing here

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We talked about this last night we're talking about it now is that they go hand -in -hand the structure and practices the and also even the areas of areas of like the psychological and sociological

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Hurt abuse manipulation at least the people that that's their testament and account that they're given and again

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You always want to every in every claim does need to be cross -examined And you just so you know to biblical law does state that nor formulate an accusation

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There has to be two to three independent lines of testimony and witness I can tell you just from that post. There are a lot of witnesses saying there's problems going on But even though those witnesses are coming forward though biblical losses that those witnesses do have to be cross -examined

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So, you know, it's important that we always take every every every accusation seriously, but also we have to look at it holistically, but When it comes to you know, the issue of authority to and it's sort of intertwining with the theological infrastructure

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I see that Lauren Cunningham's emphasis is, you know, the hearing the voice of God and again if you go through his book

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I have so many sections that are highlighted. They're just very Circumstantial experiential very subjective, but you put a bunch of young people into a that sort of setting

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Isolated from everyone else and then you put newly people put people into positions and authority and possibly a quick way

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That's where you know, and while all of a sudden two different people think they're hearing hearing God's voice One saying this one saying the other but what the situation to be like tie goes to the person in authority, right?

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And that's where it seems that that that over emphasis the subjective hearing the voice of God that leads to a catalyst

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For someone, you know what scripture warns about don't be so quick to hate lay hands on a new convert or someone who's young There's dangers with that Yeah, and when something that we were told is like, you know, make sure it lines up with the

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Word of God But it there was you know Personally, I think we should start with the Word of God because we know for a fact we can trust the

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Bible the personal experiences Those are subjective if they're saying like we need to test those two according to scripture that we should make sure we're going to scripture first like The Bible shouldn't be supplementary the these visions or something if something has to be supplementary

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It should not be the Bible and it definitely seemed like that's how the Bible is treated Especially like with Lauren Cunningham. I mean it talked about how like everything has to line up with the scriptures.

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Whereas it's like well Shouldn't it be like we should be focusing on the scripture since we know for a fact and it does

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I mean while we read It every single day. There was a huge focus on Personal experiences and we were told that like, you know without personal experiences, you know biblical knowledge isn't

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It's it's incomplete like without the experiences Which and that's you know, I mean like obviously we need to apply what we learn you know as James says like don't be just hearers only, you know be doers of the word and that's so that's important but at the same time like every every experience everything we have needs to be subject to the

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Word of God and if we're going to experiences and other things first Instead of going to the Word of God if we're going to that as just a back make sure like oh like I really like This word.

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Oh god, please. May this line up with your word. That's not very smart That's very foolish and the idea of putting all these people of the same age together as well like Proverbs is like the company of fools is fools like When I was there,

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I was I mean, I wasn't even I was barely a Christian, you know Like I what I needed to be put with you know Spiritually wise like old like I need to be discipled by fathers and mothers in the faith

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Like I didn't need to be put with people my age necessarily I needed to be like raised and that's what the proverbs is very clear that the company fools will be a fool

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And so who's more foolish than my peers? They're just as foolish as I am and even other people in our class were newer converse as well.

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Yeah so it just it's that it's not very wise on my on my you know in my Opinion, you know and what was like communication like with your families during DTS?

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Like so say there's no real like code of conduct line for you to talk to the organization of YOM as a whole

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Can you even tell like your family about what's going on? So that's an interesting thing. That is a very so In our base and honestly,

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I think Alex and I can both agree on this. We are very thankful that this occurred Yeah, I think

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I wouldn't have become fluent in another language if this were not the case But we actually did not have access to our cell phones or computers or anything

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We didn't have any electronics and they were given to us. Maybe once one hour a week one hour We sometimes you go two weeks.

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Yes And so communication with family members were pretty much seldom your mom sent you a couple packages.

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That's true My mom sent me some Christmas cookies delicious But we did like some giant fast and so we had to wait like 21 days as they just sit in a freezer

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Yeah, we could have they're good after they do that. Yeah, they're fantastic. Oh my god Candy is so good amazing.

19:12

Someone gives me a crunch bar. Oh, no you I'm putting that in the freezer Amen only only frozen crunch bars for me.

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But anyways, my dad's the same way. Yeah Anyway, so communication with family is very limited. It was very very limited

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But there were times though where some families were allowed to Come over and visit their their kids, obviously

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Ours were pretty far away. So we weren't able to do that. But Like I guess if you really needed to get a message across it was never guaranteed

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But you could ask a leader to communicate to your parents But they were apparently sent text messages and stuff by staff

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I guess kidding a hold of us was really hard. But as when we would get Our cell phones and stuff.

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So obviously that that partially answers your question But I think you're mainly talking about like well, how do you even describe is that where you're kind of going?

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We're like, how do you describe what you're experiencing? I think in our case we were talking about it on the way over here

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Actually, um, I think in our case we were in a completely new culture And I think a lot of the things that we experienced were just like culturally like insane and so it's kind of hard to decipher, you know, like what elements were like hard to describe because of cultural differences and because of Just different principalities like within the country itself but I think another big thing was there were different like there was like I think one of the biggest things was honor versus respect and this was a thing that I really like That was like hit hard for me because we were told to like honor our mother and our father

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But we were told to obey God Which is sound which is sound very sound and I guess

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I said honor and respect. I meant to say obey and honor and so we were told basically to Obey God in God's Word, but it was interesting because there were times where they would also say well

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You need to obey us as well Which was kind of interesting But there was a point where like I really felt like I was supposed to go on the international outreach and my parents did not feel the same way and You know,

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I I prayed a lot about it and then I ended up coming to my own conclusion But it was just like mom

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You don't understand like it was like trying to can like tell her why I felt like I was supposed to go But it really did come down to and and I'm thankful for this

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But my my base leaders were like hey You got to really make sure you honor your parents and what they want for you You don't want that kind of tension and so I didn't end up going on the international trip

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But you know, I think when it came to like trying to talk to them I feel like my parents really did understand they they just wanted the

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Lord to speak to me So yeah, one thing that was interesting though. I I distinctly like I remember exactly where we were

21:53

I remember where I was sitting I remember where the person that was talking to us was standing like if I went to the building I could Should I could point out everything and I remember at one point

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We were being told that Like why wait like people think we're in a bubble and that like the

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YM experience is unique like people outside won't understand it yeah, and People will tell you that like that isn't reality.

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It's like but we live this reality every day So it is reality, but it's it's not I mean

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We not everybody has the opportunity to live in constant community with brothers and sisters. Don't get me wrong.

22:28

That's great It's amazing, you know, and it's refreshing and there's definitely times We're like, you know, I guess a retreat of like, you know

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Just escaping with your brothers and sisters just to spend time in fellowship like a men's retreat or something like that That's great. And I think we should avail ourselves of those opportunities

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But at the same time we are called to you know Go out and live among the world and because if you're constantly just living in a house with like all believers, you know

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It's pretty pretty easy for you to isolate yourself. Whereas we're supposed to like like the gospel something that's preached

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It's not something that's shown but you can't just like live out the gospel because it's something that's preached but at the same time part of our witness is the fact that we walk in obedience to Christ and his commandments which people see that by you interacting with them that people that do not believe and So it was it was like it was a spiritual high as we talked about earlier

23:17

You know just this idea of constantly living with believers and there some people maybe will be graced with that by God But not everyone has that and to treat that as if it's almost superior is wrong because it's just it's a different Experience.

23:31

Yeah, so this has got me thinking this so so a spiritual high in a sense I would think the spiritual high from God like there's no ramifications from it

23:40

Like say you're coming down off of a drug you feel it. Yeah So leaving why wham was there ramifications of not having that spiritual euphoria?

23:48

And if there was was it maybe not from God? I I have something to say about this one so I we each week we had a journal,

23:57

I guess that I It was yeah. Anyway, it was like a journal, but it was also like a homework assignment.

24:04

It was it was kind of cool I'm glad I have mine still you had to like because it was an art school I don't know if other bases actually do this.

24:09

I don't think I've ever asked. Yeah, but We get to like decorate it and make crafty and stuff.

24:15

I loved it But one of the times I was just like reading through it before coming down here and one of the things

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I expressed was like, you know, I was fearful about coming back home because I was scared that God was gonna leave me too and It wasn't necessarily like I don't think anyone at my base would have ever said that I really don't

24:34

They were made it clear that like, you know, like and I and I knew also like the scripture, you know

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He will never leave us nor forsake us and I knew that for a fact But I think that feeling of when

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I go back home, I'm scared that I am NOT going to experience God Was a definite evidential like thing in my heart and it caused a sort of panic and I even thought for a little bit that Maybe I was gonna like that.

24:58

I should stay as like a staff member because I didn't want to leave That that lifestyle

25:04

I guess Would it be almost that? you being there and it being

25:10

Really promoted and even sort of even for being taught there that the YOM is where the spiritual growth

25:17

Happens like this is where it's all at. Mm -hmm. Would it be almost kind of like Just just a natural byproduct almost sort of this

25:25

Subtle like Stockholm syndrome where you're sort of like you just you have to stay at YOM I have to go back to it because this is the only place where I can experience

25:32

God or is that I wouldn't say Necessarily that was it for me Even like when I talked to my leaders about it

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I'm thankful that they approached it like this because I feel like this is not every base They were like, you know, like we like it was actually kind of hurtful, but I was like they're like no

25:47

We don't think that's the the right thing for you to do Because my parents were like no you're coming home, which

25:53

I was really sad about thanks mom and dad, but I also Think that they maybe saw something in me.

26:01

That was like wanting to stay because of like a dependency That was something that they constantly kind of called out in me, too

26:07

Just to be a little bit more vulnerable But like like they were just like, you know, like you really got to depend on the

26:12

Lord. You can't depend on other people Which has some truth to it, but I don't know

26:17

Alex Well, so because for me the only place I'd ever experienced God was in the Dominican because a year before I'd heard the gospel and Then I you know,

26:25

I went back and I'd had a year of just Spiritual hell and so when I got I went back there.

26:30

It was like the first time I actually really connected with God I had grown in my faith. And so for me like I actually told my classmates.

26:36

I'm like, hey guys like at graduation I'm gonna be crying like it's just gonna happen I'm gonna be crying and like Alex doesn't cry That's not gonna happen and I was bawling my eyes out because I was terrified

26:43

Thank God that I wouldn't that I would go home and God would leave me because this is the only place I'd ever encountered God Now for me that wasn't necessarily because of YWAM itself

26:52

Although I could it was just it the location to Dominican Republic but I do

26:58

I'd have heard plenty of stories of people who You had the experience where leaving

27:05

YWAM they had that now for me Because I did have a great level of dependence upon YWAM and because my faith was literally nurtured from the like from its foundation by These people and so the idea of being a

27:17

Berean no concept for me at all Like I trusted them implicitly when it came to like spiritual matters, you know I trust them to disciple me to filter what was you know, wrong and true

27:26

And so I came home and I'm listening to you know, these people some people have people recommended

27:32

I'm just listening to all these sermons and stuff Until eventually I realized the things people were saying weren't true and so then

27:39

I actually started deconstructing from there because I was like this makes no sense like Like is it like am I just gonna have to live with two things that contradict each other like that?

27:47

That's no way to live like I can't do this. And so I ended up just tearing down everything. Okay, that makes no sense I make some sense.

27:53

I'm throwing everything out now I thank God because he the one thing I was still doing at this time was reading the

27:58

Bible every single day And so God did use that to then reconstruct my faith But it was there's very few things from that I was taught at Wyoming that I still hold to and there was also a lot of Like pushback where I would kind of go to the opposite side now

28:14

That was just an emotional reaction and God has now brought me back to a more stable view on things but Yeah, it was a really dark time for me because I came back and then

28:26

I also wasn't given any time to process I was like hey I need time to process and my parents like no like you Need to get a job and you're going to go to college

28:32

You had your year off you had your time to process like now it was time to actually get back on track and get your Life on track.

28:37

Do you so do you think when you were? Deconstructing since you were reading

28:42

God's Word was it in a sense almost like You you were finding out who

28:48

God actually was, right? So so he deconstructed from indoctrination in a sense in some ways

28:54

But then actually found God consistently who he was through his word. So not necessarily deconstructing from Christianity, yes, but really actually

29:04

Unplugging yourself from the matrix of spiritual euphoria. Yes. Yes. Yeah, because I mean again like there we had every single day

29:11

We're interacting with Christians. Whereas when I came back like I started going to this one church, but I Struggled really hard to find community.

29:19

I tried the youth group I tried the men's group and none of them worked and So and I ended up starting teaching

29:24

Sunday school there because I'd done that before I was a Christian long story anyway But you know, so I you know so I just kind of went back to like my habits that I had beforehand right and but there was still a really hard time for Me to readjust because you know,

29:38

I'd started to take on parts of the Dominican culture and the YOM culture That just did not work. Yeah, and so there was it was a really really rough time

29:45

And so I didn't have any community. So I kind of went online to try to find a community which you know Thankfully got used but that itself like I was going online

29:53

You know, I had no accountability weren't people that walking me through stuff and that's also the issue I had because I'm listening to all these people like preaching sermons from all over the place.

30:00

I don't know these people I don't know their spiritual state of mind and I don't know if they're saved or anything They just sound good. And you know, so it was it was a very dangerous time for me

30:08

Um, I was also a very bitter and angry person at that point in time Yeah, just because I didn't know and so I was just lashing out at people and then also

30:19

Because of all the pain I went through because of that it also caused me that once I started to reconstruct my faith

30:24

I was still very I was very antagonistic to things that I saw as wrong. Mm -hmm and They caused me to be very confrontational

30:32

It really was not a good time in my life Just because I didn't know I didn't know what was true and I'm I felt like a you know

30:39

I'm on my own so I was really really defensive and this was really hard for me to find community, right? So you're the standard by which you were viewing your life and the community

30:49

Now around yourself was not necessarily through the Word of God you being a new Christian It was through your YWAM experience and things in a sense or not equaling up.

30:56

There's things that are wrong You're not getting the same fulfillment. Yeah, you're just going through that motion and purging yourself in a sense.

31:03

Yeah Yeah, it was about a two -year process of where I was really purging through stuff and then

31:08

I finally started to like rebuild I mean, there's some rebuilding but for the most part I was just tearing down like everything for those two years and I was very isolated as well during those two years

31:17

Just because I wasn't able to find Fellowship and it wasn't necessarily even like meaningful fellowship. Like I wasn't able to find any fellowship at all

31:24

Yeah, like the church I was at like the preaching was like biblical, but it was shallow so I wasn't getting very nourished and the youth group someone preached it like was preaching a prosperity gospel sermon and then the

31:36

Men's group I was stuck with a bunch of people that were not taking their faith seriously So it was a really dark time for me yeah, and I've seen a lot of the testimonies of both people both people in the deconstruction camp people who identify as Ex -evangelical there might be people who are listening to this now who fall in that hope who fall under that category but whether it's people or people who are still

31:57

Holding on to the faith or still committed to Christ coming back from this. There seems to be a lot of Difficulty coming coping back to real life

32:06

Almost on a level of like PTSD people would call it like that You know, you think about the comparison of the film

32:12

American Sniper with Chris That was the betrayal Chris Kyle And so he's someone who's multiple tours over in Iraq and you know

32:20

He comes back from one of his tours and he's at this kid's birthday party And I think there's like a dog barking or something else going on You see is like PTSD being triggered and it's like no one gets me

32:30

No one understands the only that can do is like get away or go back, you know Let me ask you this too because because of the fact of just the nature of this conversation

32:42

We do see this as being complex and there's a lot of issues here We believe that when it comes to our category of what we deal with a cultist there need there needs to be a conversation about That's I'm so grateful that you are able to participate here

32:53

But when it comes to another category that we do see that's important is that you know neutrality is a myth

33:00

I don't think anyone's neutral. So when you have The people who have deconstructed people who've done that and again, we did some pup.

33:09

We did some Private conversations with some people who fell into that category, you know, I care for them

33:15

And it hurts me that they've thrown out I would say say the baby with the bathwater in the same way there be an other podcast like the field missionary podcasts or other ones or other podcasts similar where they're just a lot of like bitterness and angst like I have this father who

33:29

Abandoned me, you know So like what what do we do with the peep the conversation behind?

33:36

Deconstruction the deconstruction X evangelical move and I mean I think it's very easy to do this very black and white

33:41

Oh, they just went out from us because they're not of us, right? That's a very simplistic black and white answer, but I feel like that there's it's more complex than that and I think that's that's a conversation we need to have because it's not just at the ex -cultist and people that are

33:56

That have let most people who leave cults they tend to end up going to be an atheist or agnostic

34:01

The reality is when it comes to youth with a mission regardless of whether it's a cult or not

34:07

I think there's a there's just so many complicated variables. This is happening. Yeah, there's people who are using their experiences as a

34:15

YWAM as a catalyst to deconstruct as someone who was almost on the verge there and You've seen someone who now like you're committed follower of Jesus Christ like and but you've been through that Like, how do we how do we address that with people who have been through that sort of experience?

34:29

But they're making the decision to deconstruct to walk on the faith. What do we say about that? I I would say

34:36

Watching I mean, obviously I've had Alex as a friend for many years watching him go through that I was going through my own stuff when

34:42

I came back Yeah, a lot of issues ended up occurring in my personal life that I think kind of caused distance but I mean between us not between God and I but there was a lot of stuff that ended up occurring and I think just watching him go through that was really heartbreaking and then

35:03

I ended up seeing it happen with a family member as well and it For me it breaks my heart

35:10

I think that people who have any sort of experience with with hurts deep hurts

35:15

Especially from those who are called to love to be little Christ's like quite literally like Christians meaning little

35:21

Christ's I think anytime you have that like title and you you hurt someone and you fail which we're gonna do every day

35:28

I think that is one of the most painful things and I know for me I grew up in a church and I got really hurt by a lot of the leaders and by the people it was kind of like church -friendly fire if you will and I I ended up like really getting it hurt in some ways returning back, but I think just watching

35:48

Alex struggle through all that stuff. It just filled me up with compassion and as well as my family members

35:54

And for me, I think people's pain is valid I think definitely 100 % anytime someone goes through an experience whether it was

36:03

PTSD, you know after they experience something like in their way distant past and they experienced a trigger

36:09

Which I've had to work through in my own personal life. I think that pain and that that result is just as valid I think that the emotions that you feel like there's definite like Hormones that get released and everything like that in in your body and it feels real even if it's not actually happening

36:25

It feels real and I've been through enough therapy to know that, you know You have to work through those and so I would never ever say that someone's pain isn't legitimate and someone's experience is not legitimate

36:37

But I think when it comes to deconstruction I because of someone else's actions against you

36:43

Or because I've even been blamed before by a loved one that you know, I was the reason why they walked away

36:49

Yeah And just just to reclarify a second ago when you said little Christ I want to make sure that no one just misconstrues that because that's actually something that people in the

36:56

New Age will actually use Oh, so I think we're trying to say people who imitate Christ Yeah, yeah be imitators of Christ.

37:05

So I just want to clarify that there might be some people whose hair No, it's all good. It's all good It's good, it's good to define terms, but it is true that you know

37:15

We're supposed to be I would say the fragrance of Christ. Yes being being the triumphal procession

37:21

Yeah, so I think that that's what you were trying to say Exactly. And so in that situation though, like I've been there too where like I was on this

37:29

I was on a mission trip a while back and in this area,

37:35

I Think it was in Africa and you know There are just some things happen on the trip where this leader that I really looked up to highly not only did

37:44

I look up to him, but I Spoke very highly of him and I recommended others.

37:50

Come on Be part of this mission trip. There were people who were hurt by this leader that Were in my that I was responsible for and even though I wasn't necessarily the recipient of the abuse.

38:02

I Was someone who like I was part of it So I have this like guilt like coming back like how did

38:09

I not how did I not see this? Coming and I remember

38:14

I was in a funk for like four or five months Yeah, and you know, it is hard and I think ultimately what

38:22

I saw is that like my hope Wasn't I didn't see any

38:27

I didn't get jaded to the whole the entirety of the Christian gospel or God as a whole. I learned that there's actual practicality and wisdom in what the

38:37

Bible says in regards to Making sure that you know, there's a there's proper biblical authority that there is a kid there is

38:47

Infrastructure sent up where there is accountability. And so in fact when I my passage went to confront this guy He was a it was sort of a parachurch independent decentralized area and so When that when they try to confront him they circled the wagons and there's no

39:03

Recourse of like taking them to their elders So that's um, you know, I I think when it comes to this whole issue of deconstruction like the there's no

39:13

Catalyst there's no orthodoxy. I think for a lot of these young people for how do you deal with suffering?

39:19

How do you actually deal with a Christian when it talks about counting the cost? That's what we that's what should be promoted when you if you go anywhere like on a mission trip or Frankly become a disciple wherever you're at Yeah, I think that's a good point, but yeah,

39:34

I think like like your example and like many I mean it's like The family member did look up to me and it was it was hard when

39:43

I failed that broke something in them And it sucks because it's like that was a big

39:49

That that hurt me to see them Deconstruct and It's it's it's absolutely heartbreaking and I think watching that happen to someone that I love has given me this like big heart towards Others who have had that experience and like validating the pain, but also being like, okay

40:05

Look, you're running away from the one place. You should be running to yeah That's kind of like what I hear too with regards to deconstruction

40:12

Is that not necessarily someone's actually deconstructing the faith or deconstructing God because number one that's not possible.

40:17

Mm -hmm They're actually Deconstructing their misconceptions they had about God in the first place and an idol that was formed that was never

40:24

God Yeah begin with I agree and that that's what I find most interesting in itself And that and it pains me that there's there's a people who you know in In people's positions, they'll they'll help them elevate their idols instead of help them crush them down So they can actually have a relationship with the

40:41

Lord in a sense. Yeah, I see that too I think a lot of anger comes from You know people are saying like I'm angry at God because of this this or this that's what

40:48

I've heard in a lot of people I mean, I know people who experienced YWAM and then they ended up walking away

40:54

And a lot of them were like, well I hated that God allowed this to happen that whole idea of sovereignty and it's it's something that I would agree

41:02

It is painful what they went through was painful and there's no excuse for it Obviously, I would never say oh that that leader was in the right or YWAM's at the right like it's it

41:12

Regardless it's inexcusable. It is inexcusable Absolutely, but I think the the main idea and the main thing that I have encouraged them since then is to be like, okay that is valid let's look at Scripture and let's actually see what

41:25

God is like because you have it sounds like there is a a Disconnect here about who

41:31

God is because he is Yeah, he is sovereign But there's also different parts where maybe you don't like that justice wasn't given or maybe you don't like that Grace was shown to someone that you felt wasn't deserving of it and that that's a real feeling and I've felt that way

41:46

I think just about all of us have it one point or another. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's important that it was someone's deconstructing a

41:54

Lot of times there's a lot there's a lot of emotion attached with that Yeah, and a lot of times when people are when we're experiencing a lot of emotion we'll say things that we don't necessarily mean and So I think it's important that we show it we're just patient and we're there we just we let we let them process

42:13

We were there to help them process not by Criticizing what they're saying, but just listening to them and there's a time to you know

42:21

Put things in like if they're saying like, oh like, you know, God like did all these things or whatever

42:28

Well, you know God like tempted me with these things Well, obviously I was very clear God doesn't tempt but you you just let you know

42:34

There's a time to point them to God and we always need to make sure that we're not using anecdotes we're always pointing up to who

42:39

God really is, but we need to be patient and kind and Make sure and these are only things that we can do by the power of the

42:47

Holy Spirit Like none of us can do this in ourselves doesn't come like we need to be praying for them we need to just appeal to God on their behalf and just Really just we need to see

42:57

God ourselves when we see someone else. That's that's Struggling because there's no way we can actually help them like we need to know that we can't help them

43:06

Only God can and so we need to be open to let God use us, but we need to ultimately know that It's in God's hands.

43:15

We can only do what God has equipped us to do So we shouldn't be feel overwhelmed just be faithful with what you know

43:21

What God is what God is equipped you with what skills what? But in the way that you can help them help them and then trust

43:28

God So here's something that I've noticed too. So out of both both of you guys leaving YWAM There was like almost like a culture shock a spiritual detox that essentially you have to go through when you get back home

43:38

So to me, I've seen a hundred percent of people that I know personally now from YWAM that have had to do a spiritual detox

43:43

Yeah, if I if I'm thinking about it, I think that someone who's experiencing Legitimate relationship with the

43:49

Lord should come out of something more spiritually mature. Yes, right So do you find that to be a problem?

43:55

Hmm, you know what I mean? Like yes coming back, but then actually like being like, whoa, like yeah wrecked in a sense

44:01

Yes, I feel like my maturity came later on. I feel like I had a pretty unlike Alex I like did grow up in the church.

44:09

I did grow up in the faith I went to private schooling from fifth grade till my senior year of high school

44:14

And being in a Bible school with Bible as a class and everything. I've grown up learning philosophy theology

44:20

I've read the Old and New Testament multiple times And so and I would even take extra courses at church and stuff so I had a pretty solid understanding of who

44:32

God was but at the same time like when I came back I felt like my relationship was more

44:38

I guess solidified I guess it happened with I had to like kind of There wasn't as much of like that strong like feeling gushy feeling

44:49

I guess like we had in Our DTS like with constantly being surrounded with other believers.

44:54

It was like snap back to reality. It's like whoa it was a big shock, but yeah,

44:59

I would say that I for me personally, I I did have a solid understanding and faith in God before going down and I Did have one solid one coming back, but I had to definitely

45:13

Read Adjust to a new lifestyle and it was interesting.

45:19

I I guess I don't really have words to describe it yet But yeah, yeah has ever been when

45:24

I come and I appreciate you guys all thank you all so much for sharing that sharing your heart here when it comes to all the overall issues and I I feel like no matter how we approach there's no way and You know 255 ish minute episodes we could encompass every single aspect and variable

45:41

I mean, we're just doing our best to try and be a catalyst for hopefully some further constructive conversations but when it comes to the you know, the issue of authority when all these different people who have

45:54

Really made their public, you know recollection of just how they feel in regards to just you know, jadedness bitterness in some levels

46:07

But also just being up front like this experience really wrecked me It's not what

46:12

I was sold a bag of goods that did not deliver. Yeah, I mean has there ever been any acknowledgement or ownership from?

46:20

Leaders, I mean, I know the bases are there's a lot of different Basis this decentralized but when it comes to just how it's structured with leadership

46:27

Has there ever been any level of ownership or just actually explanation to all these different stories?

46:33

I mean they have to be aware of this, right? well, I feel like it has okay, so I think one of the biggest issues that we

46:41

Kind of faced in our Experience was if we did have a lead like an experience with a leader or with a director or anything

46:49

I wasn't provided any information on like who to contact if there were any problems And I think a lot of times things have to get like really bad and like people have to like publicize it

47:01

I think that's a disconnect that I think Is pretty consistent throughout all the different bases which is you know, having that accountability for the leaders in the sense that like if a situation were to occur feel like people feel like they need to take it to a public platform in order to Actually share their experiences before it gets the attention of somewhere someone higher up in the in the ladder

47:27

And I think there was a there's several Acknowledgements that different directors and whatnot have addressed but I feel like a lot of people are still left with a lot of Discomfort because it's like they their specific story wasn't heard or seen but I think it takes publicizing it on a public platform like a youtuber or something like that in order for their

47:49

Message to be across and then that's when action is taken. Mm -hmm. Okay. Okay Well, I definitely appreciate you saying that and also to as far as one other question, too

48:01

Well, actually that might be towards the end. I must say this question Oh, I was just thinking

48:07

I realized that's a hook. That's a market How much does it cost to do?

48:12

So it's like close to $10 ,000. It seems it depends together. It depends cuz for us it was like 6 ,000

48:19

I mean, it really depends on how far you have to go You know because it was obviously like travel arrangements and also it depends on where you're living because the cost of expenses, you know

48:28

It really depends. I mean even just cost of living within the United States like different states a lot more than other places

48:33

So that will have an effect on the price of your DTS. Yeah Yeah, so like thinking yeah,

48:39

I was just like like processing in my head when I look at up I was like, okay, so you pay to go there and then you do all the work for them

48:45

You don't get paid but you get paid in the knowledge that you're retaining. It's decentralized. But is the money centralized? Right, is that a question like yeah, how does that work?

48:54

What's working? Well, yeah, cuz the question is like like let's say there it's requests that I pay

48:59

You know the $6 ,000 for my DTS and let's say it didn't end up costing $6 ,000

49:04

Where does where did that extra money go now in my case? I actually do know where that went I know

49:10

I went to pay for some of the DTS of some of my classmates and I'm totally fine with that, you know But then just because I've been there just because I knew where it went doesn't mean where everyone else knows where it goes and that that is a fair argument because like There's no really account.

49:24

I mean supposedly There's like once a year where the director has to meet with the Board of Directors as mentioned in the first episode

49:31

I think the 333 and they have to give an account for finances and everything, but that's not public.

49:38

Mm -hmm to my knowledge I mean I could be wrong there could be some public sort of thing on it But I mean, there's not anything on the website that talks about it to my knowledge

49:47

So, but yeah, then that is a very valid question that I would also I mean I think is a question of people that people are asking and it does need an answer, right?

49:55

and again, even like this issue as far as the cost of it goes and Again, how people feel about the cause is probably contingent upon upon what sort of experience someone had at YWAM Right.

50:06

Yeah I know for myself personally on that same trip to Africa like the Fundraising was like exciting because you're about to go there and we did like multiple yard sales in August here in Phoenix It's like 113 degrees and so like everyone better get to the yard sale before 9 a .m

50:19

Yeah, right, and we may like three grand like it was just we made a good amount of money to fund this trip

50:25

And it was amazing how it went together. But then when everything actually occurred on the trip

50:31

I just felt so jaded to like I put months of preparation Into this and I just felt so spit out the other end

50:38

But there's a lot of people to in you know The people who come out of youth with a mission who are you know had you know

50:44

The bad experience the jade experience because of the organization then they bring up they feel sort of in bitter

50:49

Oh, I had to raise all my money Like why couldn't they paid for me and they just kind of it's almost some of these podcasts

50:55

Honestly, it's kind of like misery loves company And I and I get that I've been there like I've had times where I was not

51:02

I was sort of distant from the church for like two years And I was bitter and angry at God and might me and my guy who's our worship leader

51:08

We would just go to the gym and just and yeah And he's like lift weights and yellow and just for sharing grievances like God, you know

51:15

I get it. I get what it's like to be there. But um Yeah, I can totally get that. So I think one of the questions too, you know as we wrap up here

51:24

Is that you know, we want to be a catalyst for you know, more constructive conversations about this We know we know that again, there's no way in this conversation.

51:32

It can encompass every single person's experience And so but this is our this is our landmark of sorts

51:38

Into this conversation, but if why was it was to go out of crossroads like where my question be, where do we go?

51:45

Where does YM go from here? because a lot of people Who would view YM in a positive note would say look at what

51:52

God is all look at everything that God is doing and so Some people listening this may list heard of the podcast the rise and fall of Mars Hill There's I would give but give it balls and strikes of things that they did get right

52:04

Things that they just went off of kilter because they're they they definitely fall into the category of progressive

52:10

Christianity but one of the things they said is Like at what point in any ministry?

52:17

Can you justify all that God is doing when all this hurt is going on or if there's if there's really?

52:25

Fundamental flaws in this person character like look at it You know, this is these are real problems people being hurt but look at all the lives that are being changed

52:32

So like at what point can YM justify like it

52:38

Continuing this been going on for a long long time. These issues have been going on for a long long time

52:43

And I feel like even now because of the fact of social media and now everyone can get in Facebook groups

52:49

I know there's gonna be people talking about this episode and Facebook groups Yeah, I've got a couple of them, you know, like people are now able to share their stories with each other, right?

52:58

So the question is like where Where does why we go from here and like how do we actually label this because we start at the very beginning like is why?

53:07

Wham a cult, right? Um, I would just say you can tell me you're like, I don't think We have the ability to call it that because again, we see it.

53:16

It's complex, right? It's it's almost like the it's like a duality between what makes it a cult and what doesn't make it a cult from everything

53:23

That we're seeing Mm -hmm. Um, so yeah, I think that's our position, but we don't we see this as these issues have to be addressed, right?

53:30

there needs to be conversations about this, but yeah, um Where does why I'm go from here?

53:36

Like what is what should what should the organization do? Yeah, give me your thoughts

53:41

I think I think as Alex and I have talked about it and we've talked about it with several people

53:47

I Think there are some pretty evidential gaps that are within I mean, there's clear like there's like no

53:54

HR at least that I'm aware of of what if you have an issue with a leader I think that needs to be something that's first and foremost

54:01

I think abuse should not be Tolerated and I don't think it should take Someone getting to the point where they feel like they need to publicize it on social media now mind you

54:10

I do think that that's a huge way that people communicate their angst in there their anger already.

54:16

But um That's that's something that I think if someone has been legitimately hurt and just by the process of you know, like Examining and cross -examining people's stories.

54:26

Like I feel like that needs to be taken seriously but I think as far as the there's just so I in my opinion,

54:34

I think YOM has gotten really big and I Think when any organization is like really big it's gonna lead to flaws and a lot more eyes are gonna be on it and personally,

54:44

I think because it's so big and because there are so many bases that are so different from each other and The leadership and like how people are selected some bases require that leaders get trained

54:55

Well others you could just after your schooling you could become a leader. I personally think that there's a lot of Disorganization within it and I think that's where it leads to a lot of hurt a lot of immature faith

55:08

A lot of people like who maybe just became a Christian in their leading I even heard this one story this one group within within YOM had been like Excommunicated from a church and then they were excommunicated again and yet they spent like a few years like preaching the gospel even though they were unsure if they were right with God and Like I I think that that because of a lack of organization

55:32

I think that kind of stuff is a lot more common than we think and so in my opinion as far as like if a

55:39

Crossroads were to occur. I think I think it needs to stop expanding and I think there needs to be like a serious sit down with like a lot of the different leaders and Personally, I I say enter with caution.

55:52

I don't go around and say, you know, like you should do YWAM I don't think I have I've been ever since like I came back.

56:00

I'm like, okay, you need to like proceed with caution I think it's for the spiritual mature and maybe not for someone who is just starting off in their faith or someone who's trying to Go to boot camp.

56:10

It's funny. You mentioned that I mean, I I'm just knowing my experience Like I got saved on a mission trip, right?

56:15

and I know what it's like to be at the pinnacle of like wow, this is amazing like growing up in church and they're like Having this amazing experience, but then

56:22

Going, you know later on, you know on I would call it It was like the mission trip from hell and that's what it like.

56:29

That's what it felt like You know, like I'm there having to sort of protect, you know the people that I'm assigned to but without saying anything because I don't know if How what this leader is going to do because he has our passports like mm -hmm and you make the best decision you can you know, given the circumstances that you're in and then just you know things happen and You know, then you just you come back just kind of like trying to pick up the pieces, right?

56:55

And so I know I've been on both ends, but even just hearing what What the infrastructure is like like I don't even know for me if like that's something

57:04

I'm ready to do I know that I know I know that area like I know the emotion that comes behind it

57:10

And I just I know for me like it's yeah It's something that you have to be really careful with if you're gonna be someone who's a mission who's a missionary like count the cost

57:20

Yeah, I don't think even the spiritual maturity of someone who's 20 really maybe they don't even really know what they're getting into, right?

57:27

I know I didn't yeah. Yeah, what about you man? Well, so First off the argument like well

57:32

God's doing so much good. That's a really bad argument because God can use anything to accomplish his will and he used

57:40

Egypt now I'm not comparing why I'm to Egypt you've killed people so big difference But I am the point is that's a very lousy argument just to say like oh

57:49

God's doing so much good with this Therefore it must be good. No that that's correlation.

57:55

Yeah, it's bad. That's very bad argumentation And Again, I guess did you go back the idea of equipping youth to preach the gospel great idea

58:06

But the application and how they actually go about doing it is not good because they're ignoring

58:12

I mean, there's just these youth are not raised in a way that they are actually ready to do this and I Have never recommended why

58:24

I'm grateful for my experience, but that's mostly just because of what God has done through it It's not like oh man, that was such a great time, you know, like I can say the same

58:32

Yeah, like I'm thankful because of how I can how I look back and see how God has used it in my life But I can never recommend anyone do

58:39

I doesn't mean that they're that they it's impossible for them to have a good experience No, there's always a chance. They could have a good experience but there's also a chance that they could have a bad one and There's no there's really no way to tell because it's so decentralized

58:52

Which can be good it can also be bad and so because of that I can't recommend that You know if you want to if you want practice sharing the gospel

59:02

Get involved in a really biblical church They can share like do evangelism with your church where there's people that are that you can that you are actively seeing like you you're

59:11

Able to like walk in see how they're like you're able to interact with them beforehand If you're like, oh, I don't like the church you can leave, you know

59:20

Now I'm not saying these trips aren't great They are and there's plenty of ways you can go on mission trips without having to go to YWAM now

59:28

I'm not saying never do it. I'm just saying I personally cannot recommend it I know a lot of people can't does that mean that there aren't people that will yes

59:34

There are people that will but I can't and I I would never do it just because I think there's a lot of theological issues besides the structural and practice and just Structure and practice that there are issues

59:45

And I would say doing research ahead of time if you know someone who's like personally gone through it like even the director person that Alex spoke to earlier today.

59:55

He is a guy who I've known for many years and really solid dude Like really solid dude, and I honestly

01:00:01

I mean from talking to his staff. I one of my former players I'm a coach one of them was thinking about going to a

01:00:09

YWAM base in Minneapolis And I talked with them for about 30 minutes on the phone and just asked them my questions

01:00:15

This was even before this was an opportunity And they were just very open about you know

01:00:20

Like how their process goes with like leadership and accountability and I think there are some really solid bases out there

01:00:27

I really do but kind of like Alex said it's like it's it's not guaranteed that maybe some solid leaders might be out on outreach by the time you go in and it's very contingent on on People there is not a very

01:00:42

Evident structural like thing with leadership, and I I also Tell people to proceed with caution.

01:00:49

Yeah another benefit of just getting involved with your church They don't have to spend thousands of dollars for a six month six six month experience

01:00:55

Thank you. It's something you it will become like a way of life for you because it's it's at your home It's by where you live and these people will be involved in your life.

01:01:03

You'll see their children grow up They'll help like they'll be around with your children grow up like that is what God designed this to be

01:01:09

You're not around each other every single day, but you're there for each other in community Yeah, yeah, it's it's

01:01:15

I think that's Because if we focus on sharing the gospel with our neighbor Then our neighbors focus on the neighbors eventually everyone in the world to hear the gospel now

01:01:23

I'm not saying we shouldn't go to unreached places because eventually you're gonna have to go to an unreached place, but I Think it's so easy to glorify

01:01:32

Going off somewhere else But that's actually so much easier because if you don't like it and you're having a hard time you can just leave

01:01:39

Whereas if you're actually like counting the cost like if you're if you're preaching the gospel I like where you live you can't leave as easily and so you're gonna go through a lot of hard things and really have to Fight for Christ in his kingdom

01:01:51

Yeah, and do you do you share the same opinion with Haley as far as? YWAM that they need to do some just pump the brakes and do some serious introspection cuz yes

01:01:59

Just because there are people especially those You know in the

01:02:05

X Y Wampa spiritual abuse There's a lot of those groups out there a lot of them do share the opinions now

01:02:11

I'm just speaking generally a lot of people just sort of have this desire to see it Implode or go down in flames and you know

01:02:18

What do you what do you think is the holistic approach like what what does youth with a mission need to do?

01:02:24

Well, I mean accountability as Haley said like that. The problem is there's a lack of accountability So the question is how do you go about that?

01:02:34

and As Haley said if it shrunk, that'd be great, but I think There's there's as Haley said and pointed out that some bases require training some don't like that's something that just needs to be required

01:02:46

You know, I mean if they go on a DTS, you're like you're going there to learn, you know that's one thing but if you're going to be leading people if These people that are like going out to why my base is like if I like when

01:02:59

I went left while I'm like I wasn't Going to a biblical church at this time, but let's say I was I'm being taken out from under the protection and shepherding of my elders of my pastors of Just the whole community and I'm basically thrown out to the wolves in the name of Jesus Christ.

01:03:11

That's not smart That's not wise and so if if you're calling them to leave where God has placed them

01:03:18

You need to be offering something like you have to be offering an equivalent or better and they're not

01:03:24

They're just not doing that. They're offering people who are just a year or two older or even younger than you They just did their

01:03:29

DTS like there's Their qualifications for leadership. They may be all right worldly speaking, but they're not biblical

01:03:36

Mm -hmm and I think we there really need just needs to be a turn back to the Bible and what the Bible says because we know

01:03:42

The Bible is true personal revelations whether you believe in those or not Those can be great, but the Bible is true. And that is all we have for sure

01:03:49

That's the only God breathe thing And so if we do not lean on that first primarily and always return to that I guess be your first response and our last yeah, if we're not doing that we're being fools.

01:03:58

Yeah, that's not okay That's where I find the danger. Really. It's like it's that tightrope right of that personal revelation.

01:04:04

Someone can go Confuse their own voice with the voice of God, right? Like and I know history shows us that people do that all the time.

01:04:11

We have Joseph Smith. We have Charles Taze Russell We have William Branham. We have

01:04:16

Jim Jones. We have it time and time again so if you're training people to hear something or Try to get a connection in that sense

01:04:24

But there is no real form of like hardcore discernment accountability and it's rather personal revelation over the

01:04:31

Word of God You're really just training little cults of personality. Yeah, or it has the tendency to become that right that way right like the danger

01:04:38

I'm not trying to broad brush it and say every single base is like that Absolutely not But but if you're training people to audibly hear the voice of God or in a sense have a vision

01:04:47

In that sense that becomes the standard now to which now you're going to live your life and even interpret the

01:04:53

Word of God Mm -hmm, but the problem is it just might be your own voice. Yeah when also who's the one that gives visions God?

01:04:58

It's not like Oh God, I choose to have a vision now So just like, you know, bring it on like no and also like, you know trainings like interpret visions

01:05:05

The only people I need visions interpreted in the Bible were rank pagans, right? Oh, that's Joseph says it get his

01:05:11

God who interprets exactly exactly. Yeah, and God is a God of clarity So if he gives you a vision, he'll make it clear.

01:05:17

Yeah, like chaos and bit disorder. That is not from God Yeah, you think about this is real paper You're like the great one of the greatest like visions ever

01:05:25

Was glory to God in the highest a peace unto all men Yeah as favor and like were they doing some sort of incantation to see

01:05:30

God like no They're just with a bunch there You know just like hey get over here with their can't get over here you

01:05:38

You know, it's like he's angels and they're like, yeah, you know, so yeah, definitely point taken

01:05:44

So yeah, I think this is a really good conversation. And I believe this is really I'm really grateful this happened

01:05:51

I feel like just given everything that we've looked at and also to you know Transparency when you talk about people who are on the outside like just that you don't understand unless you've actually been there

01:06:00

And we fully understand we haven't been there. So we have a very limited scope. So what we wanted to do is just You know bring two people in and this case or bring people in who from different vantage points who can really have

01:06:13

Constructed conversations about this. I think this has been very very helpful. So, thank you. Yeah, of course Thank you for having us and thank you for addressing this

01:06:21

Yes, like we said before I think this has been something that's been pushed under the rug or it's seemingly just so Gigantic that like it's how do you and I think this has been really good.

01:06:32

Yeah, awesome. All right. Well, thank you all for listening in and watching in the first saga

01:06:39

The first chapter of the YWAM saga is closed as far as the recording goes we've got one more tent of interview with someone who is a

01:06:47

YWAM staff member and We're praying for a good and constructive conversation as far as that's concerned

01:06:53

So if you guys like this conversation, I don't even need to ask you about Leaving a comment in your social media.

01:06:59

I know without question. You'll be letting us know what you thought and But we appreciate you all

01:07:05

I can contribute and being part of this conversation So that being said we will talk to you all next time on cultish where we enter into the kingdom of the cults