Cultish: Looking Into YWAM (Youth With A Mission) - Part 3

Apologia Studios

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Cultish: Looking Into YWAM (Youth With A Mission) - Part 4

00:00

Alright, welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults.

00:05

My name is Jeremiah Roberts I am one of the co -hosts here. I am joined

00:11

Unfortunately, not in studio this time, but with my trusted co -host Sidekick partner in crime my favorite super sleuth in the world

00:19

Andrew the super sleuth of the show back in Harriman, Utah Andrew, how are you doing, man? I'm doing well, but yes sad

00:26

I'm not with you in the studio, but I am doing well and I'm excited to finish up this series, right?

00:32

Like this is this has been one of the most requested series that we have ever had and we have a very special guest with us today, so I couldn't be happier and Thank you.

00:41

Thank you Jerry for that introduction as always one time I need to introduce you because you always give me this like reckless wrestlers introduction

00:47

Yeah, and I need to I need to give it back dude. I need to bless okay back with that Well, we'll take it all to all cash in that rain check very very soon

00:53

But I appreciate the kind the kind words that it says let the pray it let any praise view come from like another person

00:58

I think it says something like that. So yeah very much appreciated. So I am super excited We are this is chapter sort of chapter two of our series on why wham?

01:10

Aka youth with a mission and so we are here with dairy. How are you doing, man?

01:16

I'm doing great y 'all. Thanks for having me on the show. Awesome, man so just the reason why we had you on I'm really excited to talk to you because You know from our initial

01:24

Us initially looking at youth with a mission I really believe that this is something that we want to get

01:30

You know some distinct and unique vantage points when it says, you know, there's a you know, the scriptures that talk about You know hearing both sides of the story any matter has to be established by two to three independent lines of testimony and witness

01:42

In fact, there's a thing in Proverbs 18 and talks about you know, when what somebody makes his case, you know

01:48

He seems to be right until another one comes and cross -examines him so I think it's also good to kind of look at The conversation regarding you through the mission and be able to talk with someone such as yourself.

01:59

So just tell everyone's very quickly Just a little bit about yourself and your involvement with you through the mission

02:06

Yeah, first I want to say thank you guys again so much for having me on the way I've seen you guys conduct yourselves in your exploration of this topic has been one with that has a lot of integrity

02:17

Honestly, and so yeah, I'm really excited for this and I'm excited you guys are even doing this

02:23

I followed you guys for probably two years now or something. Awesome. Love the show and honestly, it's a dream to be here.

02:30

So I've been in YOM for about five years now a little under five years

02:35

I originally did my DTS in 2017 and then did a school of missions and evangelism after that and then went on staff

02:44

Directly after that. I've been overseas all over the place. Yeah multiple years and now I'm staffing permanently at a base

02:51

Mm -hmm that I've been at for three years. Okay. Excellent. So you're currently on YOM staff You have a lot of experience and I think that's the real one

02:58

The reason why I want to get you on is because every person regardless of how they feel about youth with a mission

03:03

They'll always say you just don't understand unless you're on the inside Neither Andrew and I have ever been at a youth with a mission base

03:12

We don't have a formulated opinion We're kind of really asking the question almost like I was telling you early before the show almost like a detective

03:18

You have a detective someone like lays a bunch of papers at your desk You know about a particular case or a particular person.

03:25

Hey talk about this group And so I guess the question would be like, okay Why why are people reaching out to us on cultish a show that talks about cults to talk about youth with a mission?

03:35

So let's just jump right into it So the very what we did a post a while back and you gave some perspective on it

03:43

We had posted and this is from the 1990s Rick Allen Ross He's kind of one of those people who's a notable cult expert, especially even before the 90s.

03:52

He was involved in a lot of Deprogrammings and it was you know, super intense stuff or that, you know, someone would get involved in the cult

03:58

They would try and they can't do this anymore because legally it's like you can't it actually involved actual like kidnapping

04:04

But they would hold someone against their will to try and get the to to program them to try and you know And it was just a you can look up a whole lot a lot about him

04:12

That's crazy. You look up online and where if you if you look at our social media, you can look at the post that Where Rick Allen Ross was giving his opinion on?

04:22

Youth with a mission. So if you want to start off the get -go Tell us your thoughts on that statement that Rick Allen Ross made about youth with a mission

04:31

And that's that's the real and what do you think is and even like the responses that people gave? We was like almost 900 to a thousand comments

04:38

Like yeah, give us your thoughts on that. Like why do you think there's so much emotion behind this conversation? We'd love to hear your thoughts, man

04:44

Yeah, absolutely. I think um the process of intercession Especially that ylm has where we we are more charismatic.

04:52

We believe that you can hear from the lord Um, most of the the things that I heard in the comment section and even from his post was about how that can be used

05:00

As manipulation and I totally agree it can and has in the past for sure and maybe in some basis now, too

05:06

Um, that's not my experience necessarily when I was reading his His own document the post that he made.

05:13

Um honestly, I laughed a couple times i'm gonna be honest just because It's so different from the experience that i've had i've been

05:21

To different intercession meetings from probably close to 20 different bases if not more

05:26

Um all over the world from different parts of asia to different parts in the continental united states, um and other places um, and it just wasn't necessarily my experience he went over different criteria of what how he was sort of describing the way the steps of intercession right that ylm does and Putting myself in his shoes as someone who's never been in a ylm intercession time

05:51

I can understand how if you're If your end goal in your thought process is trying to get something to be called the cult or not even inferring that um

06:04

That kind of motivation, but if you're investigating something and trying to see if it is a cult And you're putting all these statements up against like the h criteria that he had

06:12

To say if it is a cult or isn't the cult and the cult like like language I can totally see how he would start to put things together and think that it is very cult sounding

06:21

Yeah, but I assure you like I could explain all the steps of intercession and it's completely normal to what any

06:26

Non -denominational church would do as a process of intercession. So I I laughed a little bit because I could see how uh things were being misconstrued in his

06:36

Exemplification of what the steps of intercession were but I did understand sort of his thought process and what he was trying to Achieve by understanding them.

06:44

Yeah, gotcha. Gotcha. What would be some examples? So when you're looking at Um, like the definition of a cult like for you

06:52

I mean and you said because you mentioned we were talking before in a zoom call You know, you're into apologetics. You're kind of into a lot of that I mean you're a fan of walter martin a lot of you know

07:00

His different work and counterculture apologetics when you look at it Like how would you we want to define terms like from your perspective?

07:07

Like how do how do we define like a cult? Yeah, I think the most at least in my my assumption.

07:14

Um, The first thing that I go to when someone says is this thing a cult? I deal mostly with cults that come off of christianity because that's the realm that i'm in especially in asia

07:23

And so as soon as someone attacks the deity of christ the hypostatic union That's immediately what

07:29

I start to think about when I think about what is the definition of a cult, right? And of course, I think you can go into like there's one leader usually more charismatic

07:37

Starts to isolate people from a community. You can go into all of those sort of criteria um, but for me when

07:43

I immediately think of cults, I think of Um getting rid of the deity of christ And that's where you see a lot of the ones that we have in our world today around around the judeo -christianity

07:52

Right. So in other words, just it would be primarily the theological manipulation And the distortion.

07:57

Yeah. Yeah, and I would definitely agree with you And in fact a lot of times when you look at you know, even people like rick alan ross and people like steven hassan

08:06

They are they do a good job sort of looking at Aspects of the the the sociological and psychological manipulation.

08:14

Yeah. Yeah Um, you look at steve hassan's bite model, for example behavior control information control control thought control emotional control and you look at You know the way they describe that I think they do a good job but they can't give a full accounting because all that Goes from the theological all the sociological and psychological manipulation stems from the theological manipulation um, so but when it comes to Like what we see as far as one of the complex and nuanced things about this just from our perspective again

08:42

We're outsiders looking at this is that The issue what we can see with ywam is that usually when we look at a cult it usually evolves around exact centralization around around a charismatic figure or centralized around an organization specifically what we see though is that We see ywm as being decentralized not centralized but now that doesn't mean that there's around decentralization

09:13

There can be disorganization dysfunction in which spiritual hurt and abuse can still happen because a lot of times you have disorganization

09:19

Decentralization like that's the issue. Would you kind of see? When you look at just ywm as a whole being decentralized.

09:24

Is that how you define it or just explain to them? How how the ywm organization actually works from your perspective versus like centralized versus decentralized?

09:33

Yeah, absolutely. Um I think one thing to understand at the beginning is we are

09:39

Decentralized and it's important to understand what that means because for us decentralization doesn't mean disorder and disunity we're still all very connected, but ywm was founded not as an organization, but as people to have relationships with each other so a lot of our

09:57

Structure originated from relationship people just wanting to go and spread the gospel to all of the nations

10:02

Around in the 80s. It became a little more organizational by necessity, right? We need to be recognized by governments by medical agencies by all these places so we can get

10:11

Visas, we can become an actual organization all that kind of stuff. But a lot of our especially leadership is around peers respecting each other and being able to speak into each other's lives, especially when it comes to things like abuse or Manipulation of power and stuff like that to have accountability.

10:31

So when it comes to our decentralization I say you've got a base in kansas and you have another base in texas

10:38

And then you have another base in thailand, right? All those bases can look very different Because we're decentralized all those places have very different cultures

10:48

The one in texas is going to be nowhere near like the one in thailand I think a good example would sort of be if you've ever been overseas

10:56

Yeah, you'll understand that kfc and like mcdonald's are not the same restaurants

11:02

No, and you go to one in thailand versus if you go to one in texas, right? Like if we have the american version of kfc we think oh it's like the normal stuff

11:11

I go to kfc anywhere I go. It's probably gonna be the same menu But then you go in asia and you're like, oh now there's rice here and they they cater to the culture that they're in Right.

11:20

They don't just move their um Thing that's working well in america and just slap it in asia and then it's gonna fail if you do that You know what?

11:27

I mean? so the purpose of us being decentralized is that we can then adapt our ministry to wherever we go so that This is so important.

11:37

Um, we have Whole schools centered around this idea of that. We go to a place as missionaries we don't want to be like these great white saviors that we're the ones bringing jesus to you and if it wasn't for us like Everybody's going to hell all this kind of stuff you have to follow and do the things we do the way we do right we want to bring the gospel somewhere and then

11:59

If we were to leave It still runs right people are still christians. They know how to do like a biblical version of church

12:06

They have a christian worldview right but contextualized to their culture So we go somewhere we learn how they like want to use music to worship god

12:16

We don't just bring in our worship songs, right? We learn how they do Relational structures we learn how they structure organizations

12:23

We learn how they interact with their community and we don't just force our versions of evangelism on them We don't just force our versions of worship and teaching on them.

12:31

We still we never never never. Um, Disregard what scripture says and what theology says and we never um compromise that for culture but in ways of reaching people their culture knows how to do it much better than ours does because Mine isn't their culture, right?

12:46

Yeah. So the purpose of being decentralized is that Um when we show up somewhere we can immediately

12:52

Become like that culture to reach that culture just like paul did right? Yeah all things to all people Um, so that's the purpose of our us being decentralized when we talk about decentralization

13:02

That doesn't mean there's no communication. There's no accountability. Nothing like that. There is Structure on structure on structure around different bases and even between different bases so that you have accountability for example

13:15

Um the base that i'm at we have a board and every base has a board And that board can be made up of people from the community.

13:22

It can be made up of police officers It can be made up of pastors and usually is made up of pastors It can be made up of other base leaders so that there's inter -base.

13:30

Um, Communication and accountability and this board is responsible for making sure that the bases are running smoothly, right?

13:38

it's not someone that is biased because they're in yom usually people outside of yom mixed in so that Um if the base starts going south in whatever way it can go south in It can be corrected by this board.

13:50

And even if the board doesn't um Doesn't correct it any base literally any base can come in and bring correction and bring

14:00

Restoration to the base if it's going south Let me ask you about that because um and andrew i'll let you jump in too if you have thoughts as well, too

14:06

Yeah, we mentioned like a a base going south. Uh, just real quicky Are you aware of an examples of when a base went south and what actions was actually taken to correct that?

14:19

Are you talking to andrew? Sorry. Oh, I was asking. No, I was asking you we're on zoom. So Yeah, when you mentioned like going south

14:25

It sounds like you might have some familiarity that given that you're on staff Like what would be an example? You don't even you don't even have to name the specific base

14:32

But just an example because they'll be every base is separate from each other How did it go south and what was done to correct it?

14:38

Yeah, um this happens a little bit more often I would say in asia just because um, it's the mission field right there aren't all there isn't a church on every block to um,

14:49

To bring the culture correct theology, right? And so it can be very easy when you have like a base that's fresh in asia

14:56

You're trying to get people to come and teach the students that you have that are coming into your dts's um, the disciples that you're making right?

15:03

it's pretty easy for someone from america to come over and you know, just this white person usually and they sound like they're authoritative and stuff and If you have like a your leadership doesn't know about them

15:16

You do a little bit of research and it seems like they're good. A lot of times people can slip past the um

15:22

In asia, especially can slip past the means of figuring out if someone's a good teacher and can start to bring incorrect theology

15:28

Usually that's caught very quickly and someone will come they'll share in a week in a dts or in a different school and will realize

15:36

Oh This person doesn't have sound theology at all Whether teaching is heretical or non -biblical

15:41

And we need to never have them back and probably tell other y -on bases to also not have them back It happens all the time.

15:46

Okay, if a speaker is bad, we'll share among different bases and let them know Hey, don't have a speaker again. They shared this thing.

15:52

It wasn't biblical And unless they recant their statement or something. We should have them again Yeah So for example that can happen in some smaller bases where they don't catch the immediate problem and it might catch on with the young staff and then a base can go in that direction and Can make heresy actually pretty popular among certain bases doesn't happen a lot

16:15

But it has happened before that We've had a like more of an isolated base catch on to something like that And then ym leadership from around the world has had to come in and correct the theology

16:25

Usually it's just a correction. There have been instances where bases have had to been shut down because of um because of staff that just wouldn't let go of The heresy that they were believing but it's it's so far between um

16:42

Well, like the normal is usually correction is totally works is really easy to bring

16:47

Um, and we'll have other staff from different bases come in and bring that correction. Yeah Okay, why I appreciate that andrew.

16:52

Do you have any thoughts just real quickly as we kind of start to unravel? Uh all the issues surrounding, uh, why i'm here

16:58

Yeah, so the decentralization decentralization I see it kind of like this like we have There is a centralized focus of why wham

17:06

I kind of think of like a heart beating in veins and arteries attached to a heart Like we have we have like lauren right in his vision his purpose

17:13

Of of of why wham right and then we have the principles of why wham?

17:18

Uh values. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah They're kind of like the veins the arteries and the decentralization is where do these veins pump to which part of the world, right?

17:26

So there's still a kind of guiding focus but one of my one of my questions going back to the the cult question and defining a cult is um,

17:34

I'm sure that this is where it can kind of get confusing for people right when And i'm sure you can see the danger in this as well because when we know that people

17:41

Uh, typically what happens when they distort the deity of christ is they usually have a word from god like like god spoke to them

17:49

Oftentimes. Yeah, right. Yeah, so him in a vision or something exactly. So Clearly to that, right

17:54

So when people hear why women may not be super familiar with it They hear that there's a bunch of people, uh being trained to speak to speak with god or hear from god

18:02

You see what i'm saying where some of this these like this this interesting mentality comes in where people go

18:07

Well, that's a big a big big red flag and that could actually lead to a lot of uh danger, right?

18:13

Because if they're believing something that's coming from god, but if it's not true or doesn't actually end up happening It can cause lots of damage.

18:19

What what type of things are in place to try to uh, To try to counteract that that type of situation if that makes sense

18:26

Yeah, fantastic question. Um, first off to your example of like kind of a heart beating in the veins. I like that I would only replace lauren with um

18:35

With our foundational values because those were cut those came up through Groups coming up with them and agreeing on them.

18:42

Not necessarily just lauren lauren started the organization Um, but those values are our heartbeat

18:47

So no base would ever go against those values and we have tons of scripture to back up each value, right?

18:53

um, but No base would go against those values if they do then they're not a wyoming base anymore because they've gone against the core like The heartbeat of what wyom is so that's that's kind of what i've replaced.

19:02

Um, when it comes to your question of Us hearing from the lord speaking to the lord.

19:08

Um, yeah, that's definitely something that we do teach people to talk to god um And I think if someone had a necessary problem with just that Then it would be more of a broad church like theological problem because Every non -denom

19:22

I ever went to growing up also believed in that, you know what I mean? Not just like the charismatic churches that I went to um, or that I that I had gone to once or twice

19:31

Um, and of course that looks different between different churches and it's the same at wyoming bases, right?

19:36

It looks very different I would tell you the main things that we have set up And I think the church as a whole has set up and would never go against when it comes to hearing the voice of god

19:45

Is that scripture is our highest authority, right? And that if you ever think you hear from the lord if he ever gives you a vision if he ever speaks to you

19:54

Whether it's in your head or audibly or whatever If that doesn't line up with what god has spoken through scripture, you throw it out immediately

20:00

It's not from god that goes for someone else giving you a word or you getting a word from the lord

20:05

Um, you throw it out immediately if it doesn't go against scripture and every word you think you get you bring up against Um the word of god in scripture and you see if it lines up or doesn't line up So I think those are the um, or that's like just one thing that we use to bring accountability to someone saying.

20:21

Oh I heard from god. Um, at least to the base I work at and This has been my my general experience at ym2

20:29

Every time someone says I think this is from god It always is with an asterisk and they almost always verbalize that asterisk of saying

20:36

I think this is from god You need to take this word that i'm saying to the lord and to scripture and see if it's correct

20:43

And if it's not was from god, i'll totally admit that it's not from god. I'm not a prophet all those kind of things, right?

20:50

Um, those are kind of the things that we set up when we're talking about hearing the voice of god um, but I don't think it's unique to ym, right like Most non -denoms that i've ever been to do the same thing

20:59

Yeah, yeah fair enough. That's a good that's a great explanation. Okay, you can yeah clearly. Yeah Did you have another question andrew or no?

21:06

No, you're good. You're good. Yeah well Just another thing too because we're kind of talking about, you know the issue of authority and accountability and that's one something that a lot of people were kind of wanting us to ask but This is just something

21:17

I have a question of too because I mean I read I skimmed through Hearing the voice of god by lauren cunningham.

21:23

Um, you know, and I get I get his passion and his desire of What his initial vision was and kind of saw you know

21:29

The waves hitting against the beaches and to have youth from all around the world kind of go You know and preach the gospel all throughout the world.

21:36

Um Uh, give me one second here is that you know, it's What the issue that I kind of had with the book is that it seemed it was overly experiential

21:47

I mean, I feel like everything was almost as if like you wake up in the morning and you stub your like and that i'm Just sort of giving examples.

21:53

Oh you wake up in the morning. Yeah, you stub your like I stubbed my toe But then someone called me on the phone This means like god must be talking to me like this way and then

22:01

I got this call and everything's like super Super experiential it wasn't till around I think even page 70 was the first time that a scripture was quoted

22:10

Um, so it seems to me and this is the issue We've had to like we've had plenty of other people like josh lewis and rendon radio guy charismatic brothers

22:18

I get the idea of people having different views of the role of prophecy and spiritual gifts I do think there is dangers though and having an overemphasis on that where people tend to use experience

22:28

But not only but not only that, you know when I think about my mindset of where I was

22:34

When I was, you know, 20 something years old when I thought I knew I thought I knew everything about everything and now

22:39

I figure Nothing, but I think when you kind of have that combined with sort of being put in a very unique and different environments or or being on a base and even being put into A position of leadership rather quickly in a relative short amount of time or even being at a young age that can be a precipice for a lot of hurt and a lot of confusion just because You're you're you're being put

23:05

You know in a position of authority when you're not ready for that task yet and that to be totally honest

23:11

I think when people we've had zoom calls we talk with people that Have sort of had these experiences what they will call spiritual abuse.

23:19

It was a matter of someone being put into authority Um where this person and they're and they they are perfectly fair saying this is my experience

23:28

This is not representing every single y -o -a -m base. This is probably not representing your y -o -a -m base They would say that this was a situation where this person was put into authority in a very quick short amount of time and then the way he ran things, uh was

23:44

He was acting like a cult leader, but then there wasn't any real recourse that I could get to and then again

23:50

That's that base But I don't know give me your thoughts on that because I this is an issue too where I think the theology

23:57

And also a lot of time just the sociological infrastructure even from decentralization can create like a lot of these problems

24:04

So like how do we deal with both of those issues? Love to hear your thoughts there Yeah, which one do you want me to address first the hearing the voice of god part at the beginning?

24:11

Whatever whatever whatever however the lord leads you Yeah, yeah First thing I would say to anybody who's experienced those things happening spiritual abuse at y -o -a -m

24:21

A leader that has not done a good job or has been abusive or abused authority Y -o -a -m for one has admitted that that does happen and in every instance that it has happened we've tried to Like make recompense for those things, right?

24:35

We've tried to reach out to the people. We've tried to restore. Um The victims right and tried to heal them

24:41

And we've also taken action or we've tried to take action on the people who have been the abusers, right?

24:47

Um I would say that because y -o -a -m is the way it is with us trying to champion youth

24:55

It's a youth organization the biggest youth organization possibly the biggest missions organization in the world Yeah, it's a centralized it.

25:01

You definitely can have those problems where um someone is young and they get put in leadership and the leaders that put them in leadership maybe were incorrectly convinced by the person's

25:14

Level of learning or level of leadership or understanding or however They were deceived to put the person leadership and then that person abuses power

25:23

I think that as any organization does We learn right?

25:28

I see this less and less the longer that i'm in y -o -a -m Because our structures of accountability have grown so much more.

25:35

Um, something I want to explain is the way that y -o -a -m's Authority structures are set up is that it's a field

25:42

Um, jesus is the main leader, right? He is the servant leader the sacrificial leader that we all look to it's not lauren

25:48

It's not anything else, but jesus right and we all exist as leaders underneath him to different levels, right?

25:55

and so we are all um, like a leadership of Co -equals is kind of what we we talk about it as to where every leader

26:05

Doesn't have like a lot of power over another leader, but we're all accountable to each other, right? So if i'm if I start to abuse power the people that are the students that are under me are the people that i'm teaching

26:15

Or I start teaching something that's incorrect or I start. Um Maybe having one -on -one meetings alone with a girl or something, right something that's not good to do, especially in private, right?

26:25

um Other leaders and i've seen this happen all the time correction comes from any place You could be the kitchen manager.

26:31

You're a leader and you see a dts staff Who's also a leader do something that's inappropriate or say something that's just a little off, right?

26:39

That person can then go to that person and say hey like this isn't what you should be doing And if they disagree then what's the next step you go to a group, right?

26:46

And if the group disagrees you go to the leadership like as a whole the church, right? the biblical model if that doesn't work then there has to be like more serious matters that Um that have to be made in that situation depending on the the severity of it, right?

26:59

Okay What I don't want to do isn't invalidate anybody's experience because absolutely things

27:05

Abuse has happened in the past and I think will probably still happen in the future just because we're all human beings

27:11

And when humans are given power we corrupt it. It's just what we do. You know what I mean? Definitely not an excuse for what has happened.

27:18

Um I think though that our organization has set up good structures For accountability for when that does happen because it will happen to correct it another thing that I want to point out, um is that University of the nations which is the the accredited university that ywam runs under that's in kona.

27:37

Um They have a place where anybody can report any kind of abuse and they'll look into it, right?

27:45

so anybody from any base can report abuse to them or can report um authority being abused or Incorrect theology being taught and they'll look into it as well as the community like the community is is so interwoven into what ywam is

27:57

Every staff in ywam attends a church Um, at least at the bases that i've been to maybe there's some base

28:04

I've never been to that doesn't have that but every base attends a church and they're under the authority of the pastors of that church And the pastors have come to our bases

28:10

We invite the pastors all the time to come and speak and these are all different kinds of bases We have people who go to orthodox churches

28:16

We have people who um go to very charismatic churches and everything in between And we have all the different pastors come and teach to come to our worship nights

28:23

They come and share and we all have relationships with them So even when they see something going wrong when they see a student or a leader

28:31

Abusing power in some way abusing scripture in some way They have every right as a leader to step in and use their authority and correct those things so that it's not just one person

28:40

Correcting everybody's theology or everybody's use of power, but it's the community as a whole like correcting people and for me

28:48

I think that creates A system where I never feel alone And I know there have been people who have felt alone and have felt isolated and have felt like everybody's kind of against them

28:58

Totally valid and has happened for me when I understand this style of authority

29:03

I feel like everybody is on my side and the one person who's abusing power is by themselves And they're like the one leader in the mass in like in the midst of a hundred leaders

29:12

That if I go to these other leaders and talk to them They have the exact same amount of power and authority to tell this person what they're doing is incorrect

29:19

When like a student could come and correct them if that makes sense. Okay No, no, I definitely appreciate that.

29:25

So as a whole though when it comes to like the structure of accountability as a whole

29:31

Most is it why from what I understand is that? Ywam bases are encouraged to reach out to local churches and to be under the authority of the local church

29:39

But it's not it's recommended but not required Is that is that kind of like what does that look like as far as the relationship with the local church?

29:47

Yeah from my understanding Um, every staff is responsible for going to a local church. Um, and that's part of being on staff.

29:53

That's what I was told. Um, I'm, pretty sure that's a ywam thing like but as far as as far as You're your staff member as far as like a specific base

30:02

So like the base that you attend or the base that anybody attends regardless of location Is a specific base like under the or other biblical elders ultimately?

30:11

Oh, I get you You get that because there are parachurch ministries that kind of like run on their own That's a whole other separate issue.

30:16

But What about specifically the base in regards to the local church? Yeah, um, like I said ywam has a very

30:25

Um relational aspect when it comes to Authority and we invite all of those pastors in to have authority within our base

30:33

Um a more concrete and systematic way we do that is like I described before we have a board A board of elders that's over the base.

30:40

These are people in the community often pastors that are responsible for Decisions that are made and responsible for the health of the base overall

30:49

Okay Okay. Awesome. Yes, and I appreciate that because a lot of times uh when it when it comes to The issues of of the relationship.

30:57

There's a lot of parachurch organization I've seen where it happens where they they operate independently and then if there's a there's a leader being abusive or abusing his authority and i've seen the instances where Someone has to be confronted because there's ultimately no direct accountability people certainly wagons in that regard

31:13

Uh, andrew, did you have any other uh questions given where we're at right now? um, not not necessarily questions, but it was uh

31:20

Interesting it was good to hear that there is actually like a line or somewhere that people can contact kind of like a code of conduct line if they are uh experiencing some form of spiritual abuse or if they think they are

31:32

Uh, it's just it's it's interesting to me how we've talked to so many people too that said that they had no idea They they don't they don't think there is one or they even had no idea.

31:39

There was one So I wonder if that's something that could just be More pushed out in the future or it just depends like honestly on on the leadership of the base.

31:47

I guess I don't know Just interesting. Yeah I would say so Okay Yeah, so I guess the next question we would ask too because uh when it comes to the issues of making in the case

31:57

That's a call. Let me pull pull our outline here is um A lot of the students that i've talked to just trying to get understanding of people's like They're like They're just their experiences and why they see this in a negative light many times

32:12

Like when it looked like how is ywam from your perspective promoted? Like when you think of like students going in what are their expectations because my my understanding a lot of the conversations that people have a very they have certain expectations going in like I get when

32:29

I was younger and kind of the idea of kind of going out into the World and we're going to go change the world. This is our generation and kind of that that concept but then

32:38

You know doing that versus versus reality when you're actually on boots on the ground

32:43

You're having and you're having to be there like in the discipleship training group and there's people to talk about for example

32:49

And this is again. This is sometimes just standard practice, but usually they say hey, you know, you need to um,

32:54

You know not have you can't use your phone or you have limited contact because you're there to focus on the mission trip

33:00

Um, yeah, what are the expectations when someone goes? To ywam and how is ywam promoted?

33:06

Yeah curious about that? Yeah, absolutely Um, so when it comes to like our marketing and stuff, we do do ads on instagram tiktok all over the place, right?

33:14

Every social media, um, but a hundred percent we do we do surveys on this word of mouth is how people come to ywam

33:21

Someone will come then they'll go home and they'll be like I had this in this experience This is what it was like they'll share with their church or something

33:28

Or they'll tell a friend interpersonally and then that friend will be like, oh that's exciting. I want to go do that They'll look it up.

33:34

They'll apply and they'll go right and it seems like your question a little bit is like um

33:40

Is the expectation of how we share different from what it's actually like? Is that right? yeah,

33:46

I think a lot of a lot of the issues that i've seen just in hearing podcasts both from people who are That they now identify as ex -evangelical or even people who see ywam still

33:56

You know, they're still evangelical, but they have they still have issues with it And I think we had the conversation too with hayley and alex

34:02

Is that it's just their expectations versus reality once they get to the base and how it's run

34:08

There's a huge amount of adjusting and part of it. I would assume it's just natural I've been on I get that i've been on the mission field, but some of it's just you know, the culture shock

34:16

As a whole but um, yeah, I guess that would be my question too. Like yeah, do you think? Yeah it's such a hard question to answer because yeah, um

34:26

Every base is going to be so different because they contextualize the place that they're in right? so if someone from The midwest somewhere goes and decides to do a dts in asia somewhere

34:35

Or in the middle east or wherever they decide to go do a dts if it's out of their context Then that's going to be quite an adjustment period

34:42

You can I could write to you about what it's like to go and live in asia for a year, right? I can tell you my experiences.

34:47

I can tell you what the schooling is going to be like I can tell you what outreach is going to look like but until you're there until you realize like oh

34:53

I've never eaten this food before and now i'm taking this medication for malaria and my body's reacting badly to it And all of these things are happening in these contexts

35:01

I've never been with not to mention that i'm 18 to 20 And i've never been away from home before i've never been out of the country like all those things are very overwhelming um

35:09

I don't think that is the norm when it comes to people doing ywam Usually people go to a context a context they understand and then they'll go overseas and they'll be out of the context, right?

35:19

So usually people from the west will go to a ywam base in the west somewhere, right? someone from the middle from the midwest will go to Uh, the kona base or we'll go to the texas base or we have bases all over right?

35:30

Yeah um And that's pretty every base Of course has a little bit different of a culture just every church has a different culture kind of Displayed by the leaders and the leadership style that those leaders have whether it be more type a or type b um

35:44

That very much makes up what the the culture of the base will be like Um, and so their their expectations can be very different.

35:52

We explain in video form and written form Um on our websites what the dgs is like, you know, there's three weeks of lecture phase

36:00

These are what the lecture phase topics are like and then you're going to have prep for going on your outreach And you're going to go on your outreach We have tons of videos what going on outreach is like And what it can be like different kinds of ministries you can do we tell people that it's going to be complex

36:12

Um, it's going to be stretching. It's going to be hard. You're going to grow a lot. There's a lot of information, right? I think there's something like six months worth of sermons you listen to when you go through your three month lecture phase, right?

36:24

So there's a lot of content right and it can be very overwhelming Um, I don't think that's a problem

36:29

I think it's normal any any place where you grow is stretching and it brings you out of your comfort zone And even your context now the parts that aren't good are kind of like the parts you brought up of You know, maybe not telling someone you're going to take away their technology

36:42

Then they show up and all of a sudden you got to give up your phone, right? That's not something i've ever seen. Um, On any base that i've been to there are times on outreaches that i've led and i've been a part of where um

36:56

The youth can Start to be disinterested in the ministry and just be on their phones all the time even during ministry, right?

37:02

Like say you're doing a food distribution And you're supposed to be handing out food and sharing the gospel and you're on your phone watching youtube or something There have been times on outreaches, um where i've seen leaders be like hey

37:10

Like you need to give up your phone, especially on like while we're doing ministry You can have back when we're back at base or back at the house or whatever

37:17

It's never a forced thing though Like if you don't want to have that be a role over you You don't have to be a part of ywam or you can leave like we're not forcing you to be anywhere

37:26

Right or anything like that. We also communicate most of the time. Um with parents and with um,

37:32

The students before they come that that's going to be a thing Yeah, if it's going to be a thing i've never been to a base I I did read that some people have been to bases where um,

37:41

Their phone was taken or their computer was taken the whole time. I've never experienced that do I think that's a good practice? Not necessarily especially when it comes to you being able to communicate with um someone.

37:51

Um, I think the example that um, I read about was from the early 2000s though, where I think that would have been a lot more

37:59

Culturally normal to give up something like that because it like just not everybody had phones and stuff

38:04

And it could have been even more taboo to Or seen by the church as taboo like technology would have been not an excuse

38:10

I don't think we should be limiting people's communication with their parents and stuff I don't think it's something ywam does as a whole

38:16

I think it is something that certain leaders have done and that has been corrected and something we don't do anymore Okay, I got a question.

38:23

I got a question for you So, um in terms of like DTS and maybe people having like romanticized

38:29

Expectations and those not being met essentially when they get there. What about you personally? What what kind of expectations do you think that you would have that you had if you can go back in time?

38:38

Were there some anywhere where when you got there? It didn't live up to those expectations or what?

38:44

What was your experience like in that in that situation? Yeah um for myself,

38:50

I I I came I went into it with really good expectations because I had had so many friends who had done it before I had friends who were on staff at the base.

38:58

I went to I would say if anything I was already a very mature christian

39:03

And so I had heard about all these like revolutionary experiences with people who? Were a little bit newer of christians coming to this experience getting to know who god is understanding the bible

39:11

Going on outreach sharing the gospel seeing people get saved. It was really revolutionary for them I had seen a lot of that happen already in my life.

39:19

And so I went I was like, this is awesome It's a great. It's a great time. I'm getting told the lord It's just six months to just study the bible and get to know god, but i'd done a lot before so it wasn't as revolutionary for me as Maybe other people that was the only expectation.

39:34

I think I had that was a little different from what other people had experienced um, yeah gotcha, gotcha and another thing that we've heard from multiple people too is like there's a culture shock essentially kind of going into dts or But also coming out

39:49

Right and going back into normal Society like how do how can we explain that like in a place where we're supposed to spiritually grow and get closer to god

39:58

But when you're gone from the experience, it seems like all of that growth is out the window Like I find that very odd, right?

40:05

Like it's like a it's kind of like paradoxical in my mind or even what do you think? Or even uh, both haley and alex and other people i've listened to on different podcasts, uh, you know

40:14

Whether I think it's the phil missionary podcast or just a broad variety regardless of how they feel about it

40:19

A lot of them sort of almost give the description of someone who's like a veteran who's done a couple of combat tours in iraq

40:26

And if you've seen the movie american sniper with chris that uh, where that was portraying chris kyle like he comes back

40:33

And he's at a kid's birthday party, right and there's like a dog that barks and all of a sudden He's starting to get that like he's just struggling to adjust to a normal life

40:41

Um, so that seems to be experiential of a lot of people so what are your thoughts on that because I know that just that is an aspect where a lot of Why former yom students are even at once iraq when they go back.

40:52

That's just something they collectively share Yeah, this topic is so near and dear to my heart. I've seen this from Every from every angle from seeing my friends go to wyoming to come back and having that sort of um,

41:05

Difference in culture to me going and doing it myself to me having students who then will email me and tell me they're going through it right, um yom has a whole like, um

41:15

Leaving the base going back and integrating back into your own culture. Um culture shock like form that we'll go through Um, it's a whole like debrief form.

41:24

We have counseling for debrief as well that we offer and people can get um, but yeah To just explain it a little bit you're going from a context where maybe you're working every day

41:33

You're going to school every day, whatever your context is and you come to this place where it's not normal It's not real life, right?

41:38

You're going to just study god's word and you're going to get to know him and you're going to do ministry for six months and it's pretty intense and there are a lot of Systems set up for your success, right?

41:51

like we We ask everybody to have a quiet time at the beginning of the day and it's not usually a recommended thing

41:57

It's like you will study the bible in the morning. That's just what we do, right? You will spend time with god in the morning And then we have set up throughout the week different times of intercession different times of prayer and worship

42:07

Different times of evangelism that are all set up and you're also with your friends all the time. So it's almost like um,

42:13

Say you go to university. It's not real life. You're living in a dorm You're with all of these people that you've never lived with before in a small area

42:20

And when you leave university, you won't be the same either, right? So when it comes to yowam you have this intense experience where you're studying the bible constantly you're doing missions constantly um, you're doing all these things you're growing immensely and then when you leave that it's like a

42:35

Not a detox, but it's like you You crave it again, right? You crave the community you crave the structure.

42:43

I think the the military example you gave was really good because um something you hear all or i've heard all the time with the military is it gives you structure right and it gives you

42:52

An organized pattern to follow so that your life goes in a good direction

42:57

And when you leave when you leave yowam all of a sudden your grid for structure is completely gone because it was given to you by Like people that were all doing it together, right?

43:08

And all of a sudden now you're back home and you have all of these Old patterns that you used to go to and your friends aren't there anymore and you're not

43:16

Going corporately and worshiping four times a week And you're not going out with the group and evangelizing all the time and there isn't this like communal sense of we're all pushing

43:23

Towards christ together to understand him and to make him known That's a very very attractive thing to have we wish our communities were like that, right?

43:31

We wish all of our friends were passionate about god and passionate about every day studying the word and passionate about praying worshiping together constantly

43:38

Um, and that's the kind of church culture. We try to create right? But when you're living on a base, it's just not um

43:45

Recreatable in our communities because we have individual houses and we don't Uh all have the same job or we're just trying to do ministry all the time, right?

43:53

and so it's something that you have to um You have to decompress from when you leave whether you're a staff or whether you're a student um one thing i'll tell all my students is if you don't

44:04

Create a community when you're home because a lot of these students will come and not have christian friends when they come and um

44:10

Have a very revolutionary experience at yowam Um when you come if you don't go back home and immediately find a community

44:17

If you didn't have community or church You need to go to some kind of college group some kind of high school group and you have to find community because if you

44:23

Try to live the christian life by yourself. You will fail Right, you can read your bible every day.

44:29

You can have an awesome relationship, but that's not how god created Us to exist He created us to exist within relationships with one another and to sharpen each other

44:37

On towards being more like him if you don't have that you're going to fail, right? And so we have a lot of different structures set up to try to help people when they come out of yowam

44:45

With that kind of experience because you come out you're by yourself. All of a sudden the enemy is talking to you He's like was that real is the bible true?

44:52

You start to doubt it. You start to think maybe it was all just emotions Maybe the bible isn't true. Maybe um

44:59

Maybe all these things weren't real Maybe it was all just like emotionalism or something and all the ministry like I did overseas didn't really mean anything

45:05

And then people can start to deconstruct and lose their faith Because of that extreme decompression process.

45:11

Yeah happens all the time I've seen it many many times and that's why as wyland we try to have systems set up To help people decompress from this process.

45:21

We try to keep up with them when they leave the base but it's also sort of impossible like we can't Live everyday life with people when they leave our job is to be here and to continue to train people

45:31

Um, we can do the best we can we're preparing them and telling them what it's going to be like when they leave Yeah, um and giving them resources to to go to and tell them to be part of a church and stuff

45:39

But that's about as much as we can do Yeah, I mean I get the fact too that it can be challenging even for someone who has a positive experience

45:47

Um, let me ask you this was there so you're you were actively you're actually on staff now And then you were a student for a while.

45:54

Was there a while where you Came like you went back home or you decompressed? Is that when you experienced yourself?

46:02

Yeah, tell me what was that like for you? Yeah, um, it's a very lonely experience at first and The most helpful thing for me

46:11

Is to create a system of discipline outside of the one you just came from. I think this is the major point um

46:19

I think it's discipline and it's community because All of a sudden you're out of this place or I was out of this place where I Was reading my bible every day and I was doing evangelism and I was with people pushing me to do those things right communally

46:30

I don't have this anymore So for like a couple weeks, I was like I wasn't reading my bible really like I would go to church and stuff

46:36

But I was like there's lacking there's there's this thing that I was a part of that isn't there anymore And I realized unless I create those structures for myself

46:45

Unless I force myself to go and find community unless I say Unless I set an alarm and I say i'm going to read my bible every morning at six in the morning

46:54

I'm gonna wake up an hour early. I'm gonna do that like I did in my dts unless I set up those structures for myself

46:59

It's going to be a hard time for me, right and i'm going to face trials I'm going to face temptations in and i'm not going to be able to overcome those very easily unless I have

47:08

Structures set up for myself and this is something the church says all the time and people don't do very often is You have a regular quiet time reading time

47:16

With the lord right you have times where you worship and you're alone with him You have times where you're corporately with other people and worshiping him and you're finding community to sharpen each other have conversations about theology

47:27

Have conversations about how you can reach a community better Like those things need to be happening outside of y -o -m outside of the church in everybody's everyday lives

47:34

But when you come out of y -o -m and you're in a space where it is very organized and then you enter a space where there Isn't any organization

47:40

You have to create it for yourself or you will Fail most of the time. Okay Yeah, and I appreciate that.

47:46

I think that's one of the aspects too Regardless when you're in any sort of system like like that There's just a huge amount of adjustment and especially when you're at that when you're at that young of an age

47:56

This is the first time you've experienced something like that And so at least with me that i'm aware all this year

48:01

It's been a while since i've been on a mission trip But if I did that I would be very self -aware that if I spent six months over an average

48:08

Even if it's just two weeks, there's a huge amount of adjustment that definitely happens

48:13

And so, uh, why don't we just go ahead and do this? I think we've done a good uh sort of initial overview as far as as far as like the initial kind of looking at Just an initial overview

48:23

I I think what would be good to maybe kind of unravel is maybe sort of look at You know different people's experiences as well too both positive and negative, but I think one of the aspects too um is the issue

48:35

Uh that I think is coming out with uh, ywam because you know, there's the whole conversation now.

48:41

Is this a cult? uh, we see it from our perspective we see as Complicated and nuanced we see things that are problematic if i'm fully transparent

48:49

I think when it comes to uh When it comes to you know, lauren cunningham and really his focus on hearing the voice of god

48:58

I think there's sometimes there can be an emphasis. So just for yourself you would describe yourself as Pentecostalinian charismatic continuationist like still believing the spiritual gifts and you

49:10

Definitely a continuationist. I wouldn't I wouldn't uh characterize myself as charismatic.

49:16

Um I think if you think of like cavern chapel, that's a good Exemplification for myself, right?

49:21

Yeah as a whole. Would you say would you agree? with Everything put out and lauren cunningham's book like what he brings out about hearing the voice of god or just for yourself personally

49:32

Are there areas that are like i'm not too sure I like this aspect But I totally other areas that kind of i'm not sure if I fully agree with that or that lines up with scripture

49:40

I mean, how do you feel about his book as a whole? Yeah, I like his book for my personal walk with the lord

49:46

I don't experience like visions like he has right I don't experience um that often of a communication but I That's not to say that.

49:56

I don't I I would affirm. I have heard from the lord I have gotten like feelings from the lord

50:02

I and they've all panned out like I was in I was in church one time and I felt very depressed all of a sudden and And then the lord spoke to me and he said someone in this room wants to kill themselves and then

50:12

I saw this guy walk past me and the lord said that's the guy and this is a room of like Several hundred people and then

50:18

I was like, I don't know what to do And so the lord told me to walk after him And so I walked after him and he was just standing in the middle of foyer

50:24

And I walked up to him. I was like, hey, man, how you doing? And he was like i'm doing really bad Like i'm depressed and like i'm having suicidal thoughts and I got to talk to him about that experience.

50:32

So Mm -hmm I have had things like that happen to me to where i'm not going to invalidate someone else's experience of how

50:40

The lord has said they've talked to him if it's not going against scripture because i've had very charismatic things happen to me

50:46

It is not the normal for those things to happen to me, but they have happened before and so I'm, not gonna not affirm them happening in somebody else unless they go against scripture then

50:55

I absolutely will Gotcha. Have there been times where you're on a base just and again You're only speaking for yourself and your perspective as someone who's been both a student

51:03

And a staff member Has there been a time where you've seen someone, uh, you know go too far

51:09

Uh in regards to their emphasis of hearing the voice of god But they're acting in a way that's unbiblical and there's times where I think that Calls for confrontation you think about yeah our initial series

51:19

You're familiar the series defecting from bethel with lindsay davis and she yeah, she described, you know, some of her experiences um, you know now

51:27

You've you've heard the episode and there'll be instances I think where that would not even if you're a full -on continuationist

51:32

That's what i'm not like. Okay, that probably would lead to pulling aside Someone said hey, we need to talk about what happened there

51:38

Are there any examples that you could give either for yourself or something? Either you something you did yourself or something that you experienced or observed just with all your time being at the different bases

51:48

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um there There are at times Uh young leaders that I have seen once or twice who um

52:01

Use incorrectly their idea of god speaking to them and I don't want to say take it too seriously because We do believe god is speaking to us and you want to take that seriously, right?

52:09

but Saying god spoke to me for you. You have to do this thing. Now. I've never seen it so badly that like It's been like traumatic for somebody necessarily

52:21

But there have been times where someone will say something i'll be in intercession with them or They've given a word to someone and i'll take them aside and be like hey like This is an individual person and they get to make the decision of what god said or didn't say to them

52:33

Um, and they have control over their own life. It's between them and the lord. You don't get to say what? What god is doing or has to do in their life, right?

52:41

it's up to them to See if you're hearing from the lord see if they're hearing from the lord and take it to scripture and see if it's right

52:46

You don't get to have that authority over their lives. I've never seen a very extreme example I know that they do exist.

52:52

Um, for example, there's more charismatic bases than the one that i'm in. Um, there's a base in Reading that's for example, um more charismatic because they're pretty close to bethel they work with Um bssm every once in a while Um, the kona base is a little more charismatic than the base i'm in as well

53:08

But I know leaders from each of those bases that have publicly and to me personally

53:14

Um not affirmed that style of sharing with somebody um and also have completely disaffirmed like um the nra movement, um, you know apostolic reformation, um and have

53:25

You mean those things? Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. I was like, oh, yeah, that'd be that would be an interesting association

53:33

Yeah, no. Yeah that haven't affirmed those things. Yeah, and so I know that as a whole ywam has disaffirmed all of those styles and all those like theological points

53:44

Um of how we hear from the lord, um and have tried to bolster like yeah a pretty normal non -denominational version

53:51

Now there are people who have their own theologies and come to ywam and listen to um

53:57

Stuff that we don't affirm and try to practice it and when they do we shut them down So you would say that's that's not good, right?

54:02

So you'd say from your perspective that why I went with it being cross denominational um As much as and that was lauren cunningham's vision to be as cross denominational as possible that includes all all all branches but however, when it comes to issues with the nar issues with hyper charismania that we've kind of addressed sometimes we're

54:20

We had a recent podcast with josh lewis about how he practices discernment as a charismatic as well, too

54:26

Yeah, but normally as a whole you would you say then then they're trying to still sort of distance themselves from Those aspects of the nar is that is that kind of what you're trying to articulate?

54:37

Okay Yeah, every every leader i've talked to about the nar have has disaffirmed it and doesn't like it and thinks it's bad, um

54:44

Certain people like bethel more than others but all of them everybody that i've ever talked to has affirmed the hypostatic union and doesn't like Certain things that bill johnson has said and stuff like that.

54:54

They just like the worship music or something You know what? I mean? But that's not to say that everybody in ywam is that way but everybody every leader that i've talked to has been that way

55:02

Gotcha cool. All right. Well, uh, let's go ahead and wrap this one up here. We're going here for at least an hour

55:07

It's always uh, I really appreciate you coming on here and I appreciate you taking the time to talk about these issues Can I say one thing?

55:13

Yeah Um, just to give a little bit broader of a perspective really quickly about ywam um

55:19

I think it's good for everybody to know that ywam is Interdenominational so we have everybody from you could be eastern orthodox to like charismatic and you can come and be a part of ywam

55:29

Okay It's not a problem for us, right? So we try to accept all those things and there's problems when it comes to different people

55:35

Interacting with how to worship and how to pray because we have very different theologies But the point is is that we can do ministry together

55:41

And that's one of the biggest things on my heart is that like I know like you guys and myself We are brothers in christ and I think we could go on the streets and we could do evangelism together and we could preach

55:50

The gospel together and we could see someone get saved like in the same way Even though we have different theologies and that's like the biggest thing that I think is to bring unity to the body of christ and that The gospel is going out to every nation.

56:03

That's that's ywam's goal, right? And ywam is affirmed by tons of different organizations Like I have a list of organizations ywam is affirmed by like christian aid campus crusade for christ world race urbana the billy graham institute axe institute trans world radio wycliffe bible translators world vision

56:19

Food for the hungry and the list goes on and on of christian organizations that affirm ywam as not a cult

56:24

And as a good organization, right now, are there people in ywam who have acted in cult -like ways? Yes, and are there bases that have that have had to been shut down because of that?

56:33

Yes Okay, are there people that are still in ywam that maybe are way too charismatic for sure? Yeah, right and those things need to be addressed but in my opinion don't think ywam is a cult

56:42

I've seen I know there are thousands of thousands of churches all over india china

56:48

All over in parts of asia secretly all over the middle east. I have friends who are in the middle east right now I hear from every day that um are starting churches and seeing thousands of people get saved

56:57

So I think ywam is a very good organization that is doing a lot of good work for the lord And I think that's affirmed by a lot of other reputable christian organizations, especially like wycliffe, right?

57:07

And yeah, that's kind of like the last things I wanted to say about ywam I want there to be unity among christians so we can do ministry together.

57:13

Awesome Well, I appreciate the general overview What we'll do is we're going to go ahead and jump into part two We're going to go a little bit more in depth uh kind of surrounding the conversation and how how did this end up at our at our front door at our at our desk here to kind of look into regards to Uh ywam and why it's even part of a conversation here at cultist

57:30

So I appreciate you taking the time to talk to us So appreciate you all listening in if you enjoyed this, uh, this initial episode here at dairy

57:37

Uh, go ahead and uh, leave your comments Be sure that you will let us know what you thought and as always a program like this cannot continue without your support

57:43

So if you feel led to partner with cultish and help us, uh have conversations like these Go to the cultist show .com.