July 14, 2017 Show with Thaddeus Williams on “Reflect: Becoming Yourself by Mirroring the Greatest Person in History (Part 2)” PLUS “Love, Freedom & Evil”

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Good.

Afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron Sharpens iron radio .com.

This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Friday.

On this 14th day of July 2017 I'm delighted to have back on the program

Theodosius Williams who's assistant professor of theology at Biola University in La

Mirada, California a former teacher of literature at Saddleback College jurisprudence at

Trinity Law School philosophy at LaBrie Fellowship in Switzerland and Holland and ethics for Blackstone

legal fellowship and Federalist Society in Washington DC and author of love freedom and evil

does authentic love require free will.

And Frequent speaker at churches and conferences today.

We are discussing part two of a topic.

We began weeks ago with Thaddeus reflect becoming yourself by

mirroring the greatest person in history and that is a the most recent book by

Thaddeus Williams and We may be entering into in the second hour if we have time.

Love freedom and evil.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron Thaddeus Williams.

Hey, it's a joy to be back with you Chris.

Let me give our listeners our email address right away.

If you have any questions that you'd like to ask Thaddeus our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail

.com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and.

This book that you have written reflect.

You basically go through seven ways that

we reflect and we have.

Let's start with the reason Mirroring the profound thinking of Jesus.

If you could give us in summary form what you mean by that.

Premise the book we've talked a little bit about last time that it's not a question of The theists

out there who worship God and the atheists who don't according to Paul and Romans

Psalm 115 everybody's in that process of becoming like what we worship for better or worse.

And so I'm asking the question if we worship Jesus, how will we how can we expect to become like him?

And so that first chapter is digging into our intellectual lives and I get into about nine

facets of the mind of Christ and I doubt we're gonna have time to get into all nine.

But just a little the mind of Christ if you look at Jesus giving the great

commandment, he doesn't just say Love God with all your mind.

He's not only the the giver of the great commandment.

He's history's greatest keeper of the great commandment.

So I think the best way to exegete that text what does it mean to love God with our mind is to look at Jesus himself and

So when we see the see Jesus in that relationship moment by moment with the Father loving God

intellectually.

You see that he had a really really high biblical IQ.

He was able to cite Scripture off the top theological arguments

based off the verb tense of the single Hebrew word.

And so as we get to know scripture better, it's not just hey, we're getting to know scripture better.

We're learning to love the Father with our minds the way Jesus does.

He's also logical.

He's able to when when challenged by the Sadducees with a very complex philosophical argument against an

afterlife Jesus doesn't bully them.

He doesn't give him a little condescending pat on the forehead and say

just believe because I say so he gives them a Logically brilliant arguments

and I'm I'm trained as a philosopher in my master's degree.

And when I read Jesus in the Gospels, I see a just a

mind that fully loves the Father's biblical.

It's logical.

And it's also Something I dive into with worldview aware

is maybe one way of putting it he was able to tap into common points with the Sadducees and

Find things they agreed on.

In Matthew 22 they agreed on the authority of the penitent.

And he's able to use that point of contact to build a really compelling argument for an

hour from that.

If we're worshiping Jesus and becoming like him, we'll think more biblically.

We'll think more logically and we'll be more worldview aware.

Let me just ask you something and I hope it's not too far off topic.

But it just popped into my head when you mentioned that You were trained in philosophy.

And I'm assuming that you notice the same thing that I do from time to time.

Is that you?

On occasion see a clashing of heads

between philosophers and theologians.

Sometimes it is a friendly brotherly Clashing and then sometimes they can

develop into more heated debate but it seems that sometimes you'll have a theologian saying that the

philosopher is Using using human reasoning to the point where they are

teaching things that are not found in the scriptures.

But if you get am I off base here, am I seeing something that's not there or what?

In my

document the way free will debate where we take

Something the Bible is clear about that.

We make choice in Deuteronomy 30 whose

life is God's Plea through Moses to Israelites and so we

take and then we draw like

well, therefore I must have Autonomous choice -making power.

I must have this power inside myself to go this way or that way and then we draw all kinds

of big theological conclusions.

But what's really happening is we're smuggling all kinds of assumptions about how free

will must work into the text.

That then becomes a set of God in ways that Causes to see

less.

I lay that out in a lot of depth in my love for medieval book How

philosophers with great intentions can smuggle in

extra patently unbiblical.

Yes.

Sometimes Philosophers will

Use the ordinary thinking of 21st century humans and try to

superimpose that upon The text of Scripture and just come to a conclusion

that God did not attend nor did his inspired writers of

millennia ago intend to convey.

Let me just

give one

quick exam.

If I'm just sitting around philosophizing.

Can I get Chris love me as

a human because I'm finite.

The only ways I could do that Would be to violate.

You know.

Coerce you and say love me or else with a gun in your back

and your brain that when you wake up in there in The morning, you're like, well, I love you.

So that was you.

All these means to guarantee your love response, but in every scenario every creepy scenario

we could lay out I'm violate what results is

something less than love and so and then

we project that to be limited by the same Constraints that I am

the finite creature and we overlook things that you read in Scripture like

Deuteronomy 30 with your heart so that you will love me

or Ezekiel 36 for

his commandments and loves him Jeremiah

3rd 31 Love him.

So to me, that's one of the big problems with

Autonomously with our own fallen reason is we often project our own Limitations on to

God and end up with a way too small view of God.

Here from Genesis to Revelation God isn't limited by the same

limitations that are.

Yeah, you you will have philosophers.

Or those attempting to be philosophers coming up with these

Placards if you will that have no biblical basis at all like for instance the one that I hear a

lot just one of many is a Gift cannot truly be a

gift unless the one receiving it willingly accepts it and.

And I'm like, oh, where does that.

Where does it say that in the Bible there?

They're making that point of faith for instance being a gift from God and.

And I and I have I have retorted.

Oh really.

So if you are Unconscious on an operating table and you are given the gift of

blood or the gift of an organ.

You have to be conscious and awake and say, okay.

Yeah, I'll take that.

No, you don't do you I mean so that that.

Putting it in New Testament categories when Lazarus's and Jesus

sovereign to reject it

doesn't make his new life any less.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, so.

Unless you have anything else you want to say right now, we can move on to emotes mirroring the

just sentiments of Jesus.

I begin by exposing something strange about 21st century

Western people that we tend to make our emotions unquestionable

the sacred Standard and authority on all reality a kind

of controversial example of what I'm getting at here if you were to time warp back

100 years or any time prior in virtually any civilization in human history and

somebody maybe felt like Born into the wrong body, you know, I'm a I'm a

man trapped in a woman's body or vice versa.

One of the question is well how do I take my emotions how I feel

and make them correspond to objective reality to the external world and If you

live in the 21st century, that's not even a live question.

I feel my feelings are supreme.

My feelings are unquestionable.

My feelings are sacred.

My feelings are sacros so it's not even a question.

How do I conform my emotions to anything objective beyond them?

The question in our day is how do I make the external world bow to my feelings?

How do I change the exterior and part

of the

premium wherever I am?

Whatever I feel that given moment is sacred and unquestionable and It's

happening out the whole world.

There's no way to move upward from Broken emotions to more

noble or more sanctified feelings.

And so once I do some of the work confused our culture that

Jesus When he said love God with your heart

is keeper of that command her real emotional progress.

We want to ask ourselves the question.

Am I feeling what Jesus feels?

Am I enjoying what Jesus enjoys?

Am I?

Outraged by what outraged Jesus do I feel compassion to my guts twist towards what got

Jesus's guts twisting?

And then where the chapter lands is to say look we can't generate these feelings

Inside of ourselves by just trying harder.

I can't make myself have the heart of Jesus, but God is sovereign enough to do that

a miracle.

He can do something supernatural.

He has access to the human heart in a way that nobody else does and he can actually infuse in

us.

Just sentiments the feelings that reflect reality the way Jesus is feeling.

So there's a very short version of about a 25 page argument.

Yeah.

Well, I might as well start taking some of our listener questions.

Let's see.

Here we have Jenny in Ben Salem,

Pennsylvania.

And Jenny asks she actually has two questions.

The secular worldview of love incorporates free will as a necessity as

evidenced by books movies, etc.

However biblical free will differs in many aspects.

Can you provide a concise definition in light of Acts? 14

28.

And If you like I can read that for our listeners that text.

Great.

Yeah, and let me just look up the text while I'm sitting here and while I'm looking it up.

Our email address.

If anybody would like to join us is.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And please give us your first name.

City and state and country of residence unless you're asking about a personal and private matter.

Acts 428 says to do whatever your hand and your purpose

predestined to occur.

And if you hold on a minute, I will read the Context

of what that is from.

I will read in fact, let me Read the verses before

that.

Let's see, I will start at.

23.

On their release Peter and John went back to hear their own people and reported all that the chief priests and the elders

had said To them.

When they heard this they raised their voices together in prayer to God sovereign Lord.

They said you made the ants you made the heavens and the earth and the sea and everything in them.

You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant our father David.

Why did the nation's rage and the people plot in vain?

The kings of the earth rise up and the rulers band together against the Lord and against his

anointed one.

And by the way, that's an excellent song by a Group

by my soul among lions.

They do a musical version of that.

That's absolutely superb.

But anyway, if you could comment.

There's this legal ruling that comes down that basically comes down to Shut up about Jesus or

we will shut you up.

That's what the the political powers that be in Jerusalem.

And that's a pretty Scary verdict coming from you know,

Luke is writing acts.

He's very careful to list the same people.

Giving that verdict is the same people in his gospel that exit

out and have a chicken

little complex.

The sky is falling this is the end.

Peter and John deliver that bad news and they get together and they pray and

To me what so in Greek?

It's a supreme

Unchallengeable power, but they remind themselves that hey these human powers

are aligned against basically giving us a gag order from Preaching the gospel, but let's

remind ourselves Who's despotate who's sovereign Lord who's really on the throne of the universe?

And then by the time they end the prayer, which is what Jennifer is asking about in verse versus 28

they're talking about the crucifixion of Jesus and They don't say

on God's watch certain

non Jews Did exactly what your

hand in your will?

Predetermined and what Luke is doing there.

He's stacking.

Luke uses that language.

It's the unstoppable sovereign hand of God.

And he follows it with the bullet.

I'll say again every time Luke uses that it's the unstoppable plan

the hand of God.

You have the will of God and that would be

predetermined the execution of Jesus and So when you think of it in that in those categories.

It's not like evil is happening willy -nilly.

Their answer to the question.

Where was God when Jesus was executed is right where he's always been on the throne.

Their answer to where is God when they're facing these legal threats

about Jesus or be shut up the way they encourage themselves Is to say where's God?

Oh, that's right, right where he's always been on the throne.

And I think there's a huge lesson for us as Christians in the Western world in the 21st century.

There's a lot of legal

rulings execution and I've seen a lot of the church

a chicken little complex.

So this is the end and Christendom

and and the answer is right where he was in Acts 4.

Right where he was at the end of the gospel accounts with the crucifixion.

He's just as sovereign as he's ever been.

And so from that comes a fearlessness to kind of unflinching bring it on universe.

God is always on the throne and it's impossible to dethrone him.

And I think when you have that mentality it's incompatible with fear and if you're not in

the state of fear.

It makes it a heck of a lot easier to love people.

Well, thank you, Jenny, and I'm sorry.

We gave away all of Thaddeus's books the last time he was on so we don't have any free books to

give away.

But thank you for your excellent question and in fact, I'll I'll wait to the second half of the

program to ask you your second question that you have here but thank you very much for contributing to the program and

continue to spread the word about iron sharpens iron in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania and beyond and

Let's see here we have William Skinner

and Greensboro, North Carolina and Let's see here didn't intend to

give William's last name out.

Sorry about that if you If you didn't want me to do that William actually he goes by the name

Seth.

I don't know why but His question is concerning Jesus's love and how

he manifested that love toward the lost.

How do most Christians compare?

What areas would you see us lacking as a whole?

Yeah, Jesus

just

had a sure he loved the Word of God.

In fact in Matthew 22, which is my primary passage in chapter 1 showing what a

mind that fully loved the Father looks like in action the Sadducees challenged Jesus on the

question of the afterlife and his opening line to them is.

You're wrong because you don't know the scripture.

I think that indictment right there aimed against first century Sadducees Rings

every bit is true to most Christians in the 21st century.

And let me back that up.

Not a very have a George Gallup

gathering data.

Is that Americans revere the Bible but by and large they don't read it because they don't read it.

We've become a nation and if you look at George Barna has been doing

similar research for decades.

He reaches the exact same conclusion that in his words America is immersed in it.

And that's not Christ -like.

Not only does it make us ignorant But it makes us un

-Christ -like because he knew the scripture so well.

Chasm between Jesus's mind in the way

most of us in 2014 the American Bible Society did

the state of the Bible report Found that half of Americans half of the entire country quote

strongly agrees.

That the Bible contains everything a person needs to know to live a meaningful life.

Half of Americans think where you find meaning in life.

But for all that lofty regard percent of graduating high school seniors think that Sodom

and Gomorrah were husband and wife.

That's wrong for many reasons.

Americans think that Joan of Arc was Noah's wife.

That's hilarious.

Just 4 % of Christians polled believe that poverty is an issue that the church should care about.

100 In many respondents credited the Sermon on the Mount to none other than

Billy Graham.

No, the one that surprises me.

Well, actually they all kind of surprised me because those are really unbelievable Unbelievably bad mistakes, but you

said you said that there was a very low percentage of Professing Christians that thought poverty was

an issue.

We should be concerned about.

That strikes me as odd only because.

And I'm not I'm not saying this is a liberal exclusively liberal

notion.

But that kind of idea permeates society today.

Which would include those outside of Christianity ie the liberals as well.

The liberals have I think a wrong way of going about caring for the poor.

But that seems to be something that you would think that every person at least would think.

Even if they were going to be Dishonest in a poll you would think that that would be something they would say.

Of course.

Yeah, sure.

It's supposed to take care of the poor.

Yeah, you would think even if you disagree with mid

redistribution of wealth.

You would still say we ought to love the four out

of a hundred.

Wow.

Poverty is the primary driving concern of the church and that ought to just make our stomachs turn, right?

I mean what what Bible are we reading if any at all through a page of Scripture without seeing

God's profound love for the poor?

Yeah.

In answer to that question, I'd say that that's the big area of the nine attributes of the mind of Christ I get

into in that chapter that to me is the most embarrassing.

Yeah.

Well, thank

you.

Very much, I guess that was Seth that asked the last question

in Greensboro, North Carolina.

Now Jenny is saying It's x4 verse 28 not x14.

I read from x4.

Didn't I?

I'm not sure why Jenny is Saying that we made an error here.

Perhaps you could clarify what you mean Jenny.

Maybe it may be you meant x14, but I.

Anyway, thank you very much.

Anyway, Jenny and in fact, we have to go to a break right now.

And our email address if anybody else would like to join us.

We do have some Still waiting to have their questions asked and answered by you.

But if anybody else would like to join us our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris a RN Z n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least.

Your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA and

Don't go away.

We are coming right back after these messages God willing with more of Thaddeus

Williams and more of our discussion on reflect and

We look forward to hearing from you as well the listeners so don't go away.

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a pass.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Ornson your host of iron sharpens iron and our guest today for the full two hours.

With about 90 minutes to go is Thaddeus Williams and we are discussing his book reflect becoming yourself.

By mirroring the greatest person in history.

And as I said in our last interview, that is not a book by Joel Osteen.

Although it may sound although it might immediately sound like that.

In fact, I think that you were sort of being tongue -in -cheek there, weren't you?

And if anybody would like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and My

friend David Murray wrote a book with a similar title that escapes me right now.

It was something like The be happy Christians or something like that.

It was but it was a very excellent book.

Flip mirroring the upside -down action of Jesus that sounds like a very compelling

Chapter heading there.

Yeah.

So if chapter one reason is about, you know Developing the intellectual virtues of Jesus and the E and

reflect is about emoting like Jesus feel and he feels then chapter three moves from thinking and

feeling to doing.

What are we doing with ourselves and.

The argument in that chapter basically goes like this that whether we're trying to or not there's

three Core drives behind everything we do.

We're all seeking pleasure.

We're all seeking power and we're all seeking purity all seeking pleasure.

We're all seeking power.

We're all seeking purity and the secular mind gives us ways to do

that.

If I'm going to gain power Then I gain power by taking power from others

powers kind of zero -sum game.

If I'm seeking pleasure by seeking to make my three best friends me

myself and I happy I make my happiness my primary goal from the time I roll out of

bed seeking purity that I justify

and make myself and

I argue that Jesus flip says behind what you do.

If you want real power, you don't get powerful by taking it from others.

You get power if you want pleasure, you don't get it by

always seeking your own pleasure first you do that.

You're gonna end up miserable.

If you seek the glory of God you end up happy as a byproduct.

Oftentimes without even trying to be happy.

If you want purity and try to justify your corrupt.

If you receive The purity that Jesus

often you become actual.

How Jesus flips up flips upside down

purity and the whole thing is really a 20 -page

exegete and

we have a

Christian in.

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Who says I know that John Piper?

Agrees with much of the theology of Chris Arnzen and his guests today.

But I was wondering if you agreed with John Piper on the notion of Christian hedonism.

Yes, I do for the most part.

I'm not sure.

I'm not entirely sure that hedonism Piper's

trying to do.

Because hedonism if you're reading a philosophy textbook sense of the word

means the only good that exists.

And so I have to maximize pleasure and minimize pain.

Go away more

Theology, which I think is exactly right.

Yeah, the first question of the shorter catechism is what is the chief end of man?

And it's to glorify God and enjoy him forever, right?

Yeah, and Piper famously changes one word, right that you glorify God not and enjoy

him forever, but you glorify God by enjoying him forever and I Think that's

exactly right.

If you look at if you look at Psalm 1 as a case in point

The psalmist says I delight in the law of God.

Now notice it's not this cold -hearted duty there's a delight there's an enjoyment of

God and the reason I think Piper so helpful on that point is

You know in my experience a lot of people think of Christianity as I say no to sins

pleasure By saying no to pleasure.

Psalm 1 for Christianity doesn't say

no.

It says no to sins pleasure by saying yes to superior pleasure by saying

yes to pleasure in the infinite God.

That's how I say no to sins pleasure.

You know, it's it's C .S. Lewis's point in his weight of glory essay when he says, you know, we're

splashing around in in the puddles making mud pies Because we can't even

fathom The offer of a holiday at sea we mess around with sex and ambition and

alcohol because we can't even Ponder what's being offered by the infinite God?

And I think high

Christian life that had been largely lost from a lot

of the American Christian world.

Yes, amen to the enjoyment of God if he wants to call that Christian hedonism and more power to him.

And by the way, I do want to make it clear and I don't mean any disrespect towards John Piper but I don't agree with

everything that John Piper has said or done especially Involving

those whom he invites to speak at his conferences and so on.

I have a very big problem with Rick Warren these days.

In fact, probably ever since I've ever heard of him so I wouldn't want to have somebody think

that I Enjoy or approve of everything that John Piper has to say and again, I don't mean any disrespect for

him because I think Much of what he has written is a is a wonderful gift to the body of Christ.

And Tyler at Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York

Says is the problem with the modern church.

That it has adopted a social gospel rather than the ordinary but powerful

means of preaching the gospel.

I'm not sure if it's exactly on topic but good question anyway, and in fact, I think it is

interesting and I wonder if you would agree with me that that the social gospel

gospel of decades ago was exclusively the backyard or the

neighborhood of the liberals and today you have professedly

conservative Christians just preaching a different social gospel in many cases where they will

take very true and good and vital things.

Like opposing abortion and opposing same -sex marriage and things like that.

But they will make that the primary Mission in this life is to overturn

things like that and that becomes the gospel in essence.

Sure

the Problem in the church in the 21st century if I had to

narrow it down to the problem I'd say it's a small view of God and from a small view of God

Christianity certainly think it's a major problem and one that flows from a small view of

God now if you look at just the history of Western Christianity last

hundred years or so.

You had Chris you're exactly right the more liberalizing denominations tended to

adopt motifs that denied Depravity

denied sin nature they tended to blame everything outside.

Broken institutions.

If we can just fix those institutions, then we could you know usher in the kingdom of God I think

far left

identify themselves as society and redistributed wealth and

achieved Marx's vision of economic equality.

We would be bringing the kingdom of God you find a lot of that and increasingly so in the last few

years.

But there's kind of an opposite as you're pointing out from the

far, right?

But if we can just

affect reasons and some different reasons.

But if you look at the fundamentalists in the early 20th century.

They were oftentimes so committed to the theological fundamentals.

We don't want to budge on the inerrancy of Scripture.

We don't want to budge on substitutionary crosswork of Jesus.

We don't want to inch on but what tended to

happen was they ended up in their little enclaves their little holy huddles and.

We're oftentimes indifferent to and so you have this kind

of radical spirit about.

And other people who

slowly

got got I

think biblical says now what

is he you

had in Ephesians 1

and what Paul is

doing in chapter 1

is explaining the gospel and.

At one

point

he said

unblemished.

And we can read that in the 21st century context and just gloss over the deeper meaning here.

When Paul is writing to

after human dumps human dump

I

mean

burden some often

than not in the first century if

it was female that

was you're blemished.

You're unwanted and.

So when Paul's writing the Ephesians a lot of his first century audience would have been the

blemished.

Would have been the unwanted that had been picked up and made Ephesian slaves that was the fate of

a lot of the momos was they would be turned into to have an audience many of

whom had had been unwanted by their fathers and Here's God creator of

the entire universe.

And he's renaming them from the blemish to the unblemished.

From momos to ah momos.

And then the next line in Paul's argument is now we've been adopted as cherished sons and daughters.

And so there's one way that Paul one way of many that Paul explains the gospel.

Now when the early church believed that spiritual reality between me and Jesus.

They went out to the literal human dumps outside their cities and they did for us.

They went and called societies unwanted they're wanted and adopted them as cherished sons and daughters.

And so I think it's it's a false dichotomy to think we either have to have pedophile or

orthopraxy.

We either have to care about social issues or care about the actual

gospel is going to spill

again in the

21st century.

So much so just a final thought on that

the early church happened

through legislation.

Transformed regenerate by the gospel and then living out the

social Wow.

That's not In fact just to show you how

much of the conservative wing of Christendom Has fallen into their own

trap of their own brand of social gospel.

I have I don't know if you have but I've had a number of professing Bible believing

evangelicals express their opinion to me that Mitt Romney and

Glenn Beck are our brothers in Christ in spite of some of those

Unimportant secondary differences that we have with Mormon.

And I say that tongue -in -cheek there.

I'm obviously the Mormon religion.

You cannot get farther away from Christianity from biblical Christianity than

Mormonism.

I mean, yeah, they're.

Good keeping a mile -long list of do's and don'ts.

That's not a secondary issue.

And of course that you can become God of your own planet.

And And Jesus is the spirit brother of

Lucifer and you can go on and on that got that our God

Evolved from a man into being of a God through his obedience.

And On and on and on you could go.

Um.

Love.

Mirroring the radical relation relationality of Jesus.

If you could explain with a

few Johnny Cash the man in

black one of my favorite all -time musicians a little -known story about him was he.

It was I think it was 1967 and he crawled into a cave

Tennessee countryside.

It was a little cave called Nick Ajak and he was just done.

It was his attempt.

Yeah, it was the fall of 1967 called into Nick Ajak cave in the Tennessee country.

And he just laid down in the dark to commit suicide.

He was just why I alone in this cave.

And he says in his autobiography He says the absolute lack of light in that cave was appropriate

for at that moment I was as far from God as I've ever been a Separation from him.

The deepest most ravaging various kinds of loneliness that I felt over the years seemed finally complete.

And so you have Johnny Cash all by himself and by the grace of God He ended up getting saved from

Nick Ajak cave.

And then I get into to John Lennon, you know The lead singer the one of the lead singers of the Beatles how he had

what he called his lost weekend When he was separated from Yoko.

And he was during that his song I'm the song is called scared and

First verse just says I'm scared.

I'm scared.

I'm scared.

I'm scared eight times and then in verse two He adds one letter to make I'm scared.

I'm scarred and he sings that eight times and then the final

Echoes, you know, I'm tired of being alone.

And so I start with a few examples of People all by themselves.

In fact, if you could pick right if you could pick up if you could pick up right where you left off there after the John.

Lennon.

Story, we'll pick up on that when we return from the break.

Because I don't want to I don't want to interrupt you.

In the middle of a an important sentence here.

So if anybody else would like to join us on the air, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the good old USA and

Please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter.

Don't go away.

We are God willing coming back right after these messages with more of Thaddeus

Williams and reflect and I'm looking forward to hearing from your

questions at.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

We'll be right back.

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Who is Thaddeus Williams.

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Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and I will get to those of you who are patiently waiting To

have your questions asked and answered.

I will get to you as soon as possible.

But before the break you were mentioning Thaddeus about Johnny Cash

Being rescued from a cave and also the very last thing you were talking about was John Lennon

Being scared scarred and alone if you could pick up right where you left off

brilliant rock stars.

Each experience the

Genesis to create and at the end

of that day it is good.

He creates some more at the end of that day.

It is good and so sure is open with and you

get the very first and the very first thing that God looks at and says.

It's not good.

And that is it's not good for man to be alone.

I argue that You know scripture

has been telling us for millennia that were created for relationship and.

By the time you get to the New Testament We go a lot deeper into why that is.

Why do we need relationship to thrive and in John 17 Jesus

gives us a lot of insight.

He says.

Towards the end of the chapter.

He says father.

You loved me before the foundation of the world.

Before anything existed before there were butterflies before there were atoms and electrons.

Before there was war strife loneliness.

Before any of that you have a triune God who has always been engaged in Interpersonal

relationship.

Light on why it's not good for Johnny Cash to be alone in Nick Jack cave in the Tennessee

countryside.

It shows a lot of light on why it wasn't good for John Lennon to be alone in an

LA bar.

We lost weekend.

It explains why.

We feel less ourselves when we're all by ourselves for extended periods of time why

too much introspection and too much aloneness makes us after

on love.

I go deeper to that and show that.

Because Jesus is always in relationship and if we're mirroring him and becoming like him we find ourselves in

relationship.

Something that a relationship with Jesus offers that you really don't find in any other relationship.

And I get into a few facets of that but one we're talking about now is in John

17 Jesus prays father those that you have given

me would they be with me to see me in my glory and.

So in the context here, he even says in John 17.

He says I'm not praying for the whole world.

I'm praying for for those who believe in me through the disciples words.

Which means you Chris that means me it means your listeners who trust Jesus.

We are love gifts given from the father to the son as an expression of his

eternal infinite Intra -trinitarian affection we are living breathing.

I love you that the father speaks to the son and.

That that's what's going on in John 17 where Jesus is praying.

You know that us his love gifts would be able to see him in his glory.

Well when you flip forward a few chapters and get to John 6 Jesus is again talking about the

believers through all the echelons of history including us right now.

And he says all that the father gives me will come to me.

So you're listening right now and you've come to Jesus.

You didn't start that process.

You came to Jesus.

You trusted him you have faith in him.

Because before that decision the father had already given you to the son as an expression of his

Intra -trinitarian affection and he says in John 6 the father's will is

that I would lose none of all he's given.

I would lose none of all that he's given me and so the father's will is that the son wouldn't lose us.

The son's will in John 17 is that the father and when you get to

John 10 both of those come together.

Jesus is talking about his love gift.

There's his sheep and he says, you know, my sheep.

I know the sound of my voice they come to me.

No one can pluck them from my hand.

If you think about that the omnipotent Jesus holds us secure in the hollow of his hands.

That would be security enough, but Jesus goes further.

So you have the omnipotent sovereign father wrapping us up in his fingers holding tight and

then in Ephesians 1 Salvation so our core

identity as Christians is a love gift

carrying love grip used to let go.

So we could no more lose our identity.

We could no more lose our salvation than the father's to love each other.

And so I argue in that chapter that on the basis of the Trinity

We are secure.

It frees us up to love others.

I'm not loving other people now because I need validation and just need other people to

accept me.

I am Unshakably secure in the triune God and so now I can love other people for their own

kind of neediness or insecurity.

Being behind that love what I'm up to in the 20 pages

of you know.

And before I forget why I was going to mention Peter Jones to you.

Peter Jones, who's the director of Christian witness to a pagan planet?

Yeah, a good friend of mine.

Oh, really?

Yeah, well, I don't know.

Conferences.

Yeah, and professor at Westminster Theological Seminary in California.

I don't know if Peter's ever mentioned this to you, but during my several interviews with him He said that

he has a friend who he believes is being accurate to he has a lot of faith in His

discernment and so on who told him that he believes that John Lennon got saved before he

perished.

I don't know if you heard that from Peter.

I hadn't heard that.

I know that Peter and John went to school together.

Yes, but I never heard that.

There's a possible possibility conversion.

That'd be great.

Yeah, he said not singing.

Imagine.

There's no heaven anymore exactly.

He I'm utterly amazed when I hear about people using that song at funerals just totally

flabbergasted by that but.

Her nihilistic despair.

Yeah, right, but but Peter yeah Peter has a friend who is an evangelist

who Apparently and of course Peter would not be caught up in the easy

believism Scenario of evangelism or just because somebody recites a prayer they're going to heaven.

And he seemed to have a lot of constant confidence that this friend of his had the discernment To

recognize a genuine conversion not that he would infallibly know that of course.

But so that is an interesting Bit of information from our

friend Peter Jones who I've got to get right.

Yeah I've got to get him back on the program again.

He's a fascinating guest.

And going back to what you were just saying also Our Mutual friend

James are white Has been taking a lot of heat lately and this is I'm bringing this up

in relationship to What you were just saying about our

ability as Christians to love others there are people who are furious

with him because of the way that he is demonstrating his love for Muslims in

Recent dialogues that he is having with Muslims and imams and The

the fact that he is not just Saying harsh words of warning to

them and rebuke as Jesus Himself did to the Pharisees.

They think that that should be the sole way that James functions as an apologist by

telling Muslims that they're dead wrong that they Are headed for hell and that we do not need to

have any kind of a Respectful dialogue or discussion with them, especially in public

and I think that those folks who are only looking at Jesus talking to the Vitriolic

Pharisees who were openly condemning Christ and his disciples.

They seem to overlook Jesus's conversation with Nicodemus.

And the different tone that he had not that he had a different attitude towards disbelief or you know, he

didn't have He wasn't schizophrenic Jesus.

But there was a different way that he treated Nicodemus because Nicodemus was earnestly seeking

truth from him.

And you may have an imam that really wants to know what Christians believe about eternal life.

Isn't this Completely an acceptable thing if not a commendable thing for someone as long as

they are not sweeping truth or differences under the rug or as long as they're not giving the the

impression that there is a faith that is in

agreement With a false religion in regard to eternal life and so

on.

If you are making it clear that there are eternal Differences that we have a chasm of differences.

Isn't it completely acceptable to have conversations like this with? members

of false religions as long as there is no Impression

of an ecumenism being presented.

Peter's saying be ready with a ready defense for anybody you ask you for the reasons of the hope within.

He also says do with gentleness and respect.

And I've been Julie 20 years and you've known him a long time.

He knows how to how to be respectful how to engage people lovingly, but James isn't the kind of guy to

budge one centimeter on the gospel.

He's got a crystal -clear understanding of

Justification.

He 400 page tome on the doctrine of justification.

He's written The potter's freedom.

He's not budging on the sovereignty of God.

You're talking about a man who has a deep deep understanding of the sovereign grace of God.

That isn't willing to budge an inch on that but because he's so deeply committed to the

gospel.

He's willing to engage that community with heck of a shout out and well

done.

Amen, basically, I even recently pasted pasted I recently posted on

Facebook that I could hardly believe any Christian would disagree with a private

dialogue with a Muslim or leader in a false religion and.

Really?

It must boil down to they just don't want this to be available for public viewing and public hearing and they would have to

the onus is on their end to prove that having a public viewing of that is is

Unbiblical.

And of course you had Paul on Mars Hill.

I mean, how more public could you get than that?

Yeah, I think the the public facet to that makes it even better it models or.

The next general budging

inch on the essentials of the history.

I think it's all the better that it's out there in the public eye.

Well, your next chapter is elevate mirroring the saving grace of Jesus if you could.

Conversation.

I had a man I met a few years ago

Ordering from the bar out of 151 Which just in case your

listeners aren't aware.

That's a brand of rum where 151 also stands for the proof of the alcohol.

So it's seventy five point five percent pure alcohol and it's not your typical drink order.

And so it caught my ear and I Watched this guy just taking shot

after shot after shot and as I looked over at him I could see on his forearm He had in

big gothic Capital letters the phrase going.

I thought man.

I mean I need to talk to this guy.

What is happening over there?

And so I struck up a conversation and it turns out he'd been raised his name was in the book I

call him Richard was raised and

under the crushing weight you're

gonna merit not only God's

love, but if you're gonna merit your mom and dad's love and so he had tried to Do

that whole works based earn?

Love earn salvation thing for a few decades before he just gave up and decided to

Get the tattoo.

I'm just going to hell.

I might as well embrace it.

I'll never and so when I was talking to Richard We ended up

outside the restaurant on it was pretty clear night here in Southern, California.

And you can see the moon, you know hanging in the sky above us and so I challenged Richard to a little game.

I said, all right Richard first one to touch them, you know, and he looked at me like and so I gave

him this scenario you know, I'm not the most athletic guy in the world.

I run and jump to imagine you jump off a car hood you get

five feet in the air and Let's say somebody jumps off the the roof of the restaurant.

They get 30 feet higher than us who wins the game.

It was well, nobody wins

somebody.

Some people might be more quote religious than others.

Some people might keep more rules than others.

But at the end of the day if God if a holy God's standard is pretty

all need grace we all need the God

work of Jesus and so I was able to Explain

to Richard moon

jumping by our rule keeping and lifting us up to himself as a free

Utterly undeserved.

It's really the foundation of every other system

whether it's Islam like aging the

Muslim community.

I think in James's experience he would tell you that in a lot of one -on -one

conversations with Muslims and I've had this experience of I'm

trying to keep you I'm trying to measure up and I never quite know

if I've if I've done enough.

Even Muhammad the founder of Islam.

There's a hadith what some of the Muslim scriptures outside the Quran there's a hadith where

Muhammad witnessed an eclipse and thought it was the rack him dead for his

and I find that same kind of Fear that same kind of panic that same lack of assurance and a lot of

my Mormon friends.

And a lot of my Jehovah's Witness friends.

There's this deep sense of how do I ever know if I've done enough and so in chapter 5 I'm getting into.

You haven't done enough.

Let's but Jesus has and he's your great substitute.

He stands in your place.

And so now you can have not just I hope but I know that I know

will change us how being saved by grace.

Helps us to be more gracious.

We've been helped for

horizontally and help.

We're going to our final break right now.

And if you'd like to join us now is the time to do it because we're running out of time.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen and this is the last 25 minutes of our program Featuring Thaddeus Williams

and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question do so quickly before we run out of time.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and now Thaddeus we come to a very

Controversial issue Create mirroring the artistic genius of

Jesus.

And you have some people unfortunately, perhaps well -meaning but some

people in Christendom go far beyond I think the boundaries of what Scripture would allow

in This category and do some very shockingly foolish and I think unbiblical things, but if you could

comment about what you mean.

Passing a church out here in Southern, California doing series on the creativity of God and

I had a skeptic in the congregation who pulled me aside after one of the sermons and said.

He had serious objections to the idea of Christian art.

Before number one he felt like he didn't have an artistic bone in his body.

He felt like the kind of guy who couldn't draw a stick figure to save his life.

And number two, he had seen a lot of Christian art.

That Was just lousy.

He saw Christian movies Christian paintings.

What's the Christian music that seemed?

So just bad that it dishonored God and so he brought a lot of

skeptic creativity.

And so what I did with him is really what I do in the chapter in chapter 6

I get into a theology of creativity and I show that in the Opening line of Scripture that

all of your listeners should be familiar with what's the first line of the Bible in the

beginning God created and so the first time we meet God in the pages of

Divine Revelation we meet God as God thinking

up ladybugs not thinking up sunsets.

God thinking up the flavor of watermelon the flavor of coffee beans.

And so that's two of my very favorite flavors, by the way.

And watermelon.

Struggling with the problem of evil because of that I highly recommend my first book which is all about the problem of evil.

But what's interesting to me is at the end of each creation day when God is thinking up all this new Beautiful,

he says it's good now

what he just made.

What does that word good mean there?

Does it mean is it morally good seem to make much sense

ever of watermelons is?

Morally good a peacock or a chameleon or sunset is

morally good.

So I'm arguing that God is actually making an aesthetic, you

know Little Johnny was good because he listened to mommy in the 80s ate his vegetables ate his broccoli at dinner.

And it's more like somebody asked you how was it?

It was good or beholding a sun

he's making those aesthetic declarations even before he's created Adam and Eve and

It follows real beauty in the universe that

predates us.

Things are beautiful whether we recognize them or not.

And so that changes everything now, we approach the world.

I mean in the 21st century postmodern mindset.

We're just kind in this still universe and so whatever beauty we

find has to be in the eye of the beholder.

We have to impose beauty on a void, but that's not a biblical worldview.

In a biblical worldview.

Beauty is already there.

Because the creation is the handiwork

and beautiful.

And then I argue that by the time you get to the New Testament if you look at Colossians 1

Jesus is the creator and sustainer of the entire universe and so if you've

enjoyed a rainbow lately if you've enjoyed a sunset lately if you've enjoyed a

Child lately and looking into their eyes and seeing this this ingenuity of this beautiful little person

God thought up of Jesus.

Jesus has Created and are the universe if you look at

John 1.

Nothing that has been made has been made without him.

If you look at Hebrews 1 Jesus is the one laying the foundations of the earth.

And so I think there's a lot there.

Theologically that's been untapped which we've failed to see Jesus

Correctly and biblically and then when you look at his

earthly ministry after the incarnation.

Before he launches his official ministry.

He spends the majority of his earth.

He's a craftsman.

You know, we think of Jesus as a carpenter.

Which is kind of true is a little more than a carpenter

do masonry Jesus could work with metal Jesus and that's how God

incarnate the say

Anthropocene and we

take Making stuff culture mandate back in Genesis

to them.

He just made the world out on us to make something of the world.

And so I think there's just a whole untapped work to be done in the contemporary.

What it means to live out the Lord.

I think that we should have you back get new a lot of Francis Schaeffer and Hans Fruckmacher Biggest

theological heroes who did work in the arts and both of them had this very robust vision that Jesus

isn't just Lord.

And I think we should have you back to discuss that one topic for the entire two hours because there's a lot.

And you just said something that lends us to the last chapter, which is really a summary I believe of everything that

you've said.

Transform mirroring Jesus in all of life.

That chapter with Fruckmacher the great Dutch

theologian who inspired me in many ways.

Fruckmacher.

I was just last week in the Dutch countries in one

of Fruckmacher's.

It's not just an order that we might

become.

No.

Christ came in order to make us human in the fullest sense.

To renew our lives at all levels.

And artworks food we eat.

He makes it possible for the totality of a person.

And so that you

know.

To try to reason like Jesus.

To try to emote like Jesus.

To try to flip things like Jesus in our action.

Try to love like him.

To try to elevate people and live out his grace.

But that touches I argue if

you really try to do that.

It's almost it's almost a recipe for the Jesus.

It's just

that try to be all those things In and through our own power.

We will find ourselves.

Find ourselves Exhausted fraying at the edges.

Our spiritual life will not be a source of and from

the final chapter.

I say, how do you actually become all those things?

It's not by your power.

It's not by your free will saying let me try harder.

It is by in his gracious work inside of us the

gracious working fuses the emotions of Jesus.

It causes us to love in ways that reflect the way Jesus loves.

Horizontally the gosh in our

creative the final chapter is what really keeps reflect from being a self.

And that is a perfect place to segue into the other book.

You've written love freedom and evil.

Does authentic love require free will.

If you could give us a summary of that book?

Yeah, do justice to that one in the in the short time that we have.

So reflect is very popular.

It's intended for

broader

that if

I'm

going to

love Almighty

which

in

the

adjustment

of evil.

Why is the universe

so messed up?

Well because God wants the book.

I'm challenging what has become convention.

And it

was 99 up to God what

I'm arguing over

the universe.

He has access to us to love

just to love in a

way.

Happy dolls that were

you I love you.

And we have a first -time questioner Taylor in Orange County,

California who says Dallad Dallad Dallas Willard has said

grace is not opposite to effort, but to earning.

How does this effort?

Reconcile with your views of love freedom and evil.

Yeah, so in part three of the tension

between what I call Divine act promise and the human act commanded and

I trace this tension all the way from the Old Testament through the new and so just just an example of this tension in

Deuteronomy is.

But then by the time you get to

Deuteronomy 30 So that

you love early in

Ezekiel, but by the time you get further into Ezekiel

I can get to chapter he will.

That beats for his

that runs all that

the Arminian concept of free will can't do justice to because

it denies God something definitively that changes us from the

inside out that causes us to love.

Arminian theology libertarian free will denies God as heart surgeon and to

do something.

He can't perform this heart surgery so that I love him or

one theology Calvinist view of human freedom

in us as meaningful choice makers

and and God as and let me just

just bring that down.

One of my primary reasons for writing and

one of the issues that kept popping up in in ministry

was Young men battling pornography

that was you know

get an internet filter and when

I was working on love freedom and evil.

It dawned on me reading Paul's letters of the Thessalonians his first letter.

This is a church that was immersed in sexual

immorality or may God

in love.

May God cause you to increase in the bound and love and that was just a lightbulb Moment for me that he

doesn't say go try harder.

He does a few things there.

He acknowledges porneia for flattening

them into just two dimensions and not respecting or

loving them as an image bearer of God.

Just using them as the means to the end of the selfie diagnosing

porneia as a failure to love and then he's saying May God cause you to increase in the bound in

love now.

The premise of that prayer is that God is actually sovereign enough to answer it.

Let's to love in ways that left to our own willpower.

We wouldn't love church and writing the book.

It was a game changer in my ministry.

So when people were coming through my office with pornography addiction instead of the standard

group get an internet filter I began

to to

recalibrate the

porneia taste as

disgusting to you as it actually is and So that Jesus

he actually is and let's ask God for that internal miracle and see what he does.

I tried that with if I ordered

when he came back to me a week later.

And he

was the outward look

as I

said,

you know

sad me

behind this

book and

Taylor since

you

are a first -time

questioner.

Please give us your full name and mailing address in Orange County, California.

Because you have just won a free New American Standard Bible.

Compliments of the publishers of the NASB and compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

Who will be shipping that out to you at no charge to you or to our interprets on radio?

That's CV bbs .com.

That will be on the return address on the shipping label.

So keep your eye out for that, but we need your full mailing address to receive the new NAS

Bible and we have Daniel in San Jose, California who says

though I have not had an in -depth discussion with someone who claims The libertarian free will

position.

My question is if humans are slaves to sin and cannot accept spiritual things.

How does the libertarian free will view explain this seemingly obvious problem of not being

able to act outside of our nature?

Why do they feel the need to choose freely for themselves without attributing their salvation to God's

sovereign hand.

Well.

And there's a range of answers that you could get from from people who espouse libertarian free

will.

And many of them would include my brothers and sisters in Christ here and What I've heard many of them

say is Yes, you're dead in sin.

Yes, you're slave to sin by your very nature but God

extends grace and that grace restores Your

freedom that was lost back in Genesis 3 when when Adam blew it you lost your libertarian free will.

But God extends in Arminian theology a provenient grace that now restores your two -way power to say

yes or no to the gospel.

It's only by grace that you know, let

me just respond number one

in account of free will I'm only praise I

could have done otherwise and I'm only blame worthy for something if I could have done otherwise.

If I have to do it, there's no moral responsibility.

There's no praise or blame If I'm born

in sin By Arminian theology and I can't I don't have the libertarian free

will then by Arminian standards I can't be held morally blameworthy for

not choosing God to choose otherwise.

Didn't want anybody to pair Arminian theology.

They would never extend Provenient grace to give us libertarian free will

because to be blameworthy for choosing

evil.

And so it's the moment God extends provenient grace in Arminian theology that now you have two -way

choosing power.

Now all of a sudden blame kicks in.

And so you have this and where God extends grace and that grace

actually increases our damnation that grace actually Increases the amount of people who are morally culpable.

Eternally for now rejecting the gospel.

And that to me just sounds

not only strange you redemptive not

the damning power in an Arminian or a libertarian.

So that's one problem the second problem and that I get into in the

book and left human evil.

But I think problem would be if I can choose

and go against my fallen nature if I'm not enslaved by sin or dead

in sin.

Then I can actually give myself a little pat on the back for the fact that I'm saved and somebody else isn't.

And let me just just humanity in the

bottom of a pit, you know at the bottom of this.

Well, we can't can't climb out.

Then Arminian theology is going to say God lowers the rope.

Because you can't climb out by yourself.

But now it's on you you can say yes or no to the offer of the wooden

climb.

You can get out of the well you can be quote saved.

Well in my view I Think what scripture is teaching is yeah, we're in the bottom of a well.

But if God threw a rope down it wouldn't do us any good because we're dead in the bottom of that well so in a biblical

view God not only throws the rope down he climbs down the rope and then with like

divine defibrillators.

Jolt spiritual life into our corpses.

Throws us on his back and climbs out of the well, so in that view Salvation beginning middle

and end is grace grace and from beginning middle and

end in the Arminian picture.

If I end up out of the well and somebody else doesn't and I have to question Why am I out and they

aren't the only possible answer is I use my free will to say yes.

They use their free will to reject the rope.

They rejected God's offer salvation.

That's the case.

I can give myself a little pat on the back that I'm saved and somebody else isn't.

Amen in fact believe it or not.

I read an excellent article on that very thing years ago by a minister in the Church of

Christ who had come to a Sovereign grace understanding of salvation and he wrote an article

called dead men don't climb ladders.

Which which is exactly about what you were just mentioning.

I am sorry to Joe in Slovenia.

We don't have time for your question, and we don't have time for Jenny and Ben Salem, Pennsylvania's second question,

and we don't have time for Rose and Harrisburg's question, but the maybe the next time God willing when

Thaddeus comes back on we can ask your questions to him.

And I want to thank you Thaddeus for being our guest today.

If anybody wants to learn more about Thaddeus his book reflect go to Weaver book

company calm.

Weaver book company calm any other contact information you care to give.

If you just calm that would work to THA.

Double -d.

Us Williams Thaddeus Williams.

Calm that'll help get you to the books.

Or you could just Amazon either book reflect by Thaddeus Williams or love freedom and evil by

Thaddeus Williams.

And I hope they're a big blessing to you to your listeners.

And of course CV.

BBS calm is always a website you could go to to order any book you hear about on iron sharpens iron radio.

And if they don't have it in stock, they will order it.

CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible book service calm.

Thank you again Thaddeus.

I want to thank everybody who listened especially those who took the time to write in.

I hope you all have a safe blessed and joyful weekend.

And a wonderful God honoring Lord's Day.

And I look forward to hearing from you next week with your questions for our guests on iron sharpens iron radio.

And I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than

you are.

A sinner.