February 6, 2017 Show with Interviews from the 2017 G3 Conference! Part 4: Frank Mullis, Cameron Buettel, Phil Sessa

Iron Sharpens Iron

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister

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George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County and Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Monday on this sixth day of February 2017 and if you're wondering why

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I added Lake City, Florida in my opening announcement, that's because Grace Life Radio 90 .1

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FM in Lake City, Florida has launched Iron Sharpens Iron as a part of their lineup today.

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Today was the debut of Iron Sharpens Iron on Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida and they are airing a pre -recorded version of the program, a 90 -minute pre -recorded version that airs during prime morning drive time every day

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Monday through Friday from 8 30 to 10 a .m. and then they also air it from 8 30 to 10 p .m.

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Two excellent times, especially that morning drive time. I have been in the radio industry since the late 1980s and I know and everybody in the radio industry knows that that is prime real estate on the radio day part calendar.

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That is the the most prime time that you could possibly get. It's not too early in the morning, it's not too late in the morning, it's just perfect.

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8 30 to 10 a .m. and we thank Brandon and Justin Ellickson, the brothers, the

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Christian brothers that run Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida. We thank them from the bottom of our hearts for welcoming

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Iron Sharpens Iron to their lineup every day Monday through Friday and we hope that God bears much fruit through this new partnership.

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I ask of you to pray that many things are accomplished for the cause of Christ and his gospel through this partnership between Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida.

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As promised, I'm going to be resuming airing some of the interviews that I conducted in Atlanta, Georgia between January 19th and the 21st.

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It just so happens providentially that I'm not feeling that well today and I had a guest scheduled to do a live interview today but I thought it would be better that I postpone that interview because of the fact that I am battling something like a severe cold or flu and it's not quite over yet.

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So in fact I am holding back a cough right now with all the fiber of my being.

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But I am going to use this time today to air as many of the remaining interviews from the

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G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia that I recorded as I can. Any that I don't air today, if there are any left, will be aired at a future date but I think

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I may be able to air all of them today. And if you're wondering why there is all this background noise, once again this has nothing to do with a problem with our equipment or your equipment or some kind of atmospheric interference or what have you.

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This is because we were conducting these interviews on site at the Georgia International Convention Center at the

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G3 conference which is a phenomenal conference focusing on the doctrines of sovereign grace.

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And in fact this year it was in particular in commemoration or in celebration of the 500th anniversary of the

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Protestant Reformation with 19 speakers on the roster.

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And I only unfortunately had the opportunity to interview a handful of them due to the fact that everybody was very busy.

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But I also interviewed some guests that were there that proved to be very fascinating in their own right and some who were just your ordinary listener to Iron Sharpens Iron.

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And those folks are perhaps the most blessing to me above all because they are the ones that are listening every day and encouraging me.

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And it was just a joy to meet many of you there that some of whom I have never even heard from before, who have never even submitted questions before.

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I was one after another every single day I was bumping into people who saw my name tag or recognized my face from the internet and said that they have been listening to Iron Sharpens Iron for quite a while and have been blessed by it.

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But without further ado I'm going to start the program today with a truly fascinating interview with Frank Mullins.

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Frank is a certified counselor with a specialized focus in counseling sex offenders.

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This is not the kind of interview that's going to necessarily brighten your day today but it is nonetheless

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I think a fascinating interview. And Frank is certainly filling a niche in the counseling realm that needs to be filled especially by solid bible -believing

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Christians and I believe Frank is certainly in that category. And so here is

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Frank Mullins and I hope that you enjoy this interview or are blessed by it, edified by it.

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Perhaps someone in your life will need to hear this interview at some point and we're getting this interview ready right now.

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So God bless you and I hope that you are blessed by Frank Mullins' interview on Iron Sharpens Iron live at the

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G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia. Hi this is

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Chris Arnson again from live from the G3 conference here in Atlanta, Georgia and I am with Frank Mullins right now who's also attending the

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G3 conference and Frank has quite a multi -faceted ministry.

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And first of all welcome to Iron Sharpens Iron for the first time Frank Mullins. Oh I'm excited to be here thank you so much.

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And Frank tell us something about your ministry and also about your counseling ministry which is something that you don't hear about a lot especially in the reform circles that I travel in.

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I haven't heard or met a lot of those who counsel sex offenders but we're going to get to that in a minute.

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Tell us something about your church and your theological background and so on. Well I am a graduate of Southeastern Seminary.

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I have a Master of Divinity in Biblical Counseling from Southeastern and a Master of Theological Studies from there emphasizing historical theology there toward the end.

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I really thought I was going to end up in counseling to start with and then I really had a love for theology.

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Became a Calvinist in seminary. One of the rare Southern Baptist Calvinists back in 96 my first semester there.

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I found the reformed faith and wasn't too popular in those circles back in 96. I would say

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I was a Calvinist before Calvinism was cool in the Southern Baptist Convention. My love for theology led me to begin to teach.

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I taught World Religion, New Testament, Old Testament in Butner Federal Penitentiary and so it seems like God has moved me into an area to work in forensics in the criminal background to teach theology to do counseling and my first experience with dealing with sex offenders was through a couple of classes

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I was taking. Eventually my goal was to to teach and so forth and so on several things fell through at some

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Bible colleges that I was going to teach at and I ended up having to move back to Georgia and a friend that I had from several years ago had called me and said a company was needing someone to to work as a counselor but I had to get my license and so I had to go and jump through a few hoops in Georgia to get my professional counseling license and so the company that I work for is a secular company.

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We contract with the state of Georgia. We work with the federal government.

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We do federal probation and federal military parole and then we work with Georgia Department of Corrections.

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We counsel convicted sex offenders on probation and we counsel anyone on parole who has had a past sex offense so they could be currently on parole for murder, aggravated assault, burglary and now they have also sometime in the past committed a sex crime so parole wants to protect themselves and make sure those guys get counseling.

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So I am between two worlds, a world of light and a world of dark.

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As I work with the state I see myself as a sword and then on Sunday I pastor a small church outside of Millsville, Georgia, Devereux Baptist.

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We run about 30 members and I've been pastoring for 20 years total at two churches and so that's kind of my little bit of my background in those two areas.

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Yeah if anyone needs to hear about the mercy and forgiveness of God I'm assuming it would be sex offenders.

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Sex offenders are individuals who even in prison when you have the most heinous of criminals wandering about from what

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I understand the sex offenders especially when they involve children are even viewed by you know murderers and all kinds of criminals as the lowest rung of life in society and they're a sex offender's life from what

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I understand is very much in jeopardy when he is walking through the the doors of a prison.

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In your experience working with sex offenders and I'm sure just like anything else there is a mixture of people but do you see much true genuine brokenness of those crying out for forgiveness or mercy or or is there a lot of defiance a mixture of both?

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I would say if your audience if you have people who've worked as prison chaplains or do prison ministry it's very similar to the same thing you have a mix those who are quote -unquote jailhouse religion you have those who you know are just like normal people on the street they the way they were on the outside is the way they are on the inside and they come out the same way or worse a lot of times.

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Then you have those who seek repentance they they have a realization of the depths of their depravity and they have found in their life that they their family has turned against them they the society has turned against them and the only place that they find shelter a lot of times is the church and so the church is a bastion

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I've done statistically about half of sex offenders go to some type of church and whether it's the true church that's a a question over the years

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I've I currently counsel about 300 sex offenders a week in group therapy probably have evaluated close to 2 ,000 by now over the last 13 years and it's a it's a mixed bag of people from all walks of life anywhere you know

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I think I've dealt with close to 20 or 30 who offended within the church anywhere from pastors to youth ministers to Christian school teachers to deacons music ministers

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I had one guy was in a gospel quartet and was at a church and offended while he was in singing at a church so it's it's it's a mixed group you several youth volunteers uh so it's they come from a background where and it's really really interesting that they by all accounts their church trusted them they believed that they were

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Christians they they believed that they were born again and then they commit an atrocity against the church against God and and it and it changes people's views of them and it changes their view of themselves to a degree because they they have a realization of at once maybe their depravity one of the things

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I emphasize and people ask me this all the question how in the world do you do I can never do that and I I say look if Christ's atonement cannot save a sex offender cannot save anyone

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I look at them as someone who's created in the image of God and I start there

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I didn't you know certainly they're not children of God but they're definitely created in the image of God and they have dignity based on that fact and very few people treat them with dignity um

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I treat them with dignity because they deserve that because they have a creator just like I was created and and except for the grace and providence of God maybe there go

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I a lot of a lot of times and so we want to in a sense present to them and show them that there is a a way of reconciliation ultimately and of course being secular

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I I am the sword more than I am their pastor but I take opportunities and share from a

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Christian worldview my background is in biblical counseling so I share the Christian worldview and show the

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Christian worldview is superior to their to a moralistic view to a psychological view of recovery unfortunately our quote -unquote scientific world is moving toward a disease -based pedophilia and in the same way the homosexual agenda has worked the pedophiles are banding together and a lot of the therapists are moving to that model now

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I will say that there is something different about a pedophile the the average say quote -unquote sex offenders we have to separate that mentality of pedophilia and and a sex offender is about 10 percent are true what we call true pedophiles they are attracted to children and children only and there is something in their mindset that is different I I think we might can go to Romans 1 um you know we deal with schizophrenia we deal with other mental illnesses and there's just something there

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I don't I don't understand it even their brain when they do the MRIs and and the brain scans there's something different about the brain of a pedophile wow um and and that's one of the things that German research is there's something different about their they just are different and even when you talk to them you you can't understand the rationality of a person who is attracted to a child and I'm assuming of being a believer in the doctrines of sovereign grace that in spite of any proclivity toward a particular sin that any person may have he can never use anything as an excuse to perhaps be looked upon with less severity not only by God but by fellow humans he cannot use it as an excuse to continue in the sin even if it's a something different about the brain that should not give any kind of license to absolutely not you know

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I believe in the doctrine of total depravity I have no issue when somebody says well yes we're sinners to the core

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I believe in our DNA is even affected by by sin that's why we die right and so but Christ and his atonement transforms we're new creatures he renews the mind and I have and deal with guys who

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I believe are are born again and we talk and you know and I've vet them you know unfortunately the health and wealth movement has moved into the prisons more so than reform theology

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I know J .D. Hall Jordan does prison ministry very few sound theological guys go into the prisons we're ending up with charismatics that are finding their way in and they're going and reaching those people and they're coming out and I'm dealing with from all walks of life

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I'm dealing with bad theology you know and I you know

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I as I said the the worldview the Christian worldview that I present is oftentimes met with bad theology what's wonderful is

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I enjoy when I counsel into a class one of the guys he would say Mr. Mullis I don't know if you know this or not but that's in the

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Bible and I said really tell me more about that and so it's it's a reaching through and I have to trust the providence of God that God has placed me there in a unique a new you know almost like that Esther verse for such a time as this there's no one that I know of at least in the state of Georgia that is has a unique background like me working with sex offenders and God has given me a special grace to to reach him and I really think that because of my reformed faith that I understand by grace alone through faith alone that God can reach in and take a heart of stone that has done some of the most you know heinous things but again our sin that we quote unquote non -sex offenders commit you know and Jesus made sexual sin quite clear it's it's not just physical it's mental you know that God can save anyone he chooses to whether they have committed a little sin or big sin you know it's kind of the

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Martin Luther mindset yeah I'd like to have you give

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Christians some words of counsel um and chastisement advice because that sin is something that I believe most

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Christians including myself find probably more difficulty in extending any kind of attitude of forgiveness or even hope for transformation when we hear about someone who has committed those things depending upon the circumstances of course because as we both know in this day and age things can be truly trumped up or exaggerated and so on but but other than that the real acts that are undeniably acts of molestation we tend to have a an attitude that really can be described as nothing other than hatred and it boils up in us and very often we just look upon a person as a reprobate who has just no hope and the only thing that would be good for that person would be an execution or something well

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I mean I've heard that from Christians why don't we just put a you know what manner you judge you may be judged too you know and when

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I respond like that they just kind of look at me um one of the things I'll start with and this is kind of how

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I respond to that question is that there is a hierarchy among even sex offenders

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I've heard a child pornographer say

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I had no real victims they were just pictures I've had a gentleman who was a rapist who would say well at least my victim was an adult the statutory rape well she consented now the pedophile he's at the bottom of the list he suffers but what

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I notice is and this is this is very important I think to uh imputation of righteousness

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I feel really good about myself when I go counsel sex offenders because I look around the room and I go lord thank you

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I'm not the sinner like that we're like the pharisee thank you I'm not like that sinner and if I compare my righteousness to other people

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I'm always going to be self -righteous but when I look at scripture and I see

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Jesus Christ the God -man who came to this earth and lived and walked a perfect life and I take and look at my sin and my depravity and compare it to that righteousness it's filthy rags and that I know

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I need a savior who can atone no matter what my sin is that he can tone and forgive and you know thank thank

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God as I said that I have not gone down that road and I have dealt with pastors who you would have thought day one would have never done such a thing youth ministers who would have never done that your your your your youth minister your youth worker is a youth minister and your youth you know one of your you find out that he's he's been sleeping with one of your teenage girls in your youth group um

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I have a youth minister who is having sex with the pastor's daughter I mean all of these things nobody nobody thought these guys were going to end up like that I mean the church trusted them and they turned out to be wolves and shepherds clothing and you know do you know as I said and this and this is the the fear and the question is do they come to the church to molest kids or is it a circumstance that just ends up that way it's a little bit of both the church has to be has to be careful um but on the other end to to answer your question is that if I compare myself to a sex offender

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I'm always going to be a good person the uh the situation with uh especially pedophilia you continually hear in the media that this is something that has been described as incurable that a pedophile once a kind of a thing uh even though that may not necessarily be true uh in fact

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I I believe that obviously Jesus Christ can transform anyone at the same time sin has consequences and would you advise churches no matter how repentant an individual may be he should never be placed in a position of uh authority or a position where he is going to be spending a lot of alone time with children uh and as much as that may break your heart to treat someone like that who has repented for years and is a new person don't you think that that's just wise uh activity you know wise as serpents right um and and understanding you are dealing with and and that's the problem is when someone comes into treatment with me they generally have one sex offense that we know of then we do a sexual history polygraph and we find out that there's anywhere from three to twelve other victims and so we don't know if this guy's coming to us is a pedophile or not all we know that he is convicted of one maybe two sex offenses when we do the evaluation we do a polygraph and we find out so you you don't really know a lot of times who shows up at your church unless they've been in treatment or they've they are totally honest with you but who's totally honest about their past and their even within the church you know nobody's we don't do that with the average minute the average person who comes in the church and ask them oh so how many people you killed in the past you know we we don't we don't do those things so we we know very little about the past we we we know what we see you know and you know and jesus told us the wheats and the tears are are there together and um we don't know what the true motive of this gentleman is and i'll tell you this one of the things that has saved the church more than anything is insurance companies not wanting to pay out i met with our insurance company at my church this past week and we went through a lot of this and i spent a lot of time discussing churches are now being required to do trainings and sex offenders and one of the uh one of the things they they want them to do is have training of not only how to train your church to recognize sex offenders but also how to deal with sex offender who comes to your church now i want to scare you just very quickly 90 percent of all sex offenses are first -time offenders so background checks are not going to be sufficient wow my insurance company which is a fairly large insurance company did this have five sexual misconduct reports a week wow the national average is four now is this predominantly with children are you speaking about or generally it is it is going to be your your children and teenagers um i have consulted with several several churches over the last years i've been helping them put together sex offender policies um and and of course insurance companies are forcing that and recently i received a phone call from a church where they've had two um two separate men that they one was making inappropriate texts that were that were borderline flirtatious the other one is now being investigated by the police and more than likely is going to end up in prison or probation at the least for what he was doing and that um is a constant um you know i deal with allegations you know even from my guys who go to go to church and we very we vet try to vet them and the churches they go to and the probation officers are required to go and speak to the pastors where they're going to these churches and make sure they are and you know i i tell my guys i said look we want to not only protect children we want to protect you from false allegations because these guys are on uh if you have someone who is doesn't like sex offenders for whatever reason and who really does right you know and i make that you know and i ask my guys says now raise your hand how many of you like sex offenders before you came one you know and um you know it's in in and there are i've had instances where churches have purposely ran off sex offenders who were doing nothing but wanting to worship and and be forgiven and so i i found churches treat sex offenders one of most churches treat them one either totally anathema or total grace a free grace where you have free reign to come in and worship wherever you want to which is which is very scary and that's one of the things that i caution churches about is don't be one of those two find a middle ground where you can allow people to receive the grace of god but you do it in such a way that you're protecting your sheep there is real phenomenon that is quite disturbing quite frightening because it it could make any of us a victim and that is the victim that is the phenomenon as you just alluded to of false accusations of molestation of children or what have you and this has from what i understand become something that is on the rise these false accusations especially in areas of bitter divorces you might even have disgruntled church members who leave a church for one reason or another and who wants to seek vengeance somehow the national average that this is a statistic um is that false allegations are only about four to eight percent okay about four to eight percent and then matter of fact that's most all crimes is about four to eight percent are false allegations it doesn't make sense for someone to accuse someone of a sex offense but just because of all the drama involved but what you did mention is child custody cases anytime i have someone who comes in who has been involved in a serious um divorce child custody dispute all those things and they're accused of that we do polygraphs specific polygraphs and i dealt with a gentleman who i believe and the polygrapher believed was falsely accused by his ex -wife he spent 20 years in prison wow because of that yes wow um i he came to me and i asked him i said why are you if i were you i'd be angry and bitter and i'm the first you know we were the first one for the pilgrim the first one to believe his story and the polygrapher we use i trust very much if he said and i've only had him out of a couple thousand only maybe three people out of a couple thousand that he believed were truly innocent and he said i knew if i became angry and bitter it would make it more believable he says i knew that eventually hopefully someone would believe my story hmm you know it's kind of i don't know if i'm just speaking about myself here but i would think instinctively that the opposite would be true and and that's and that's and and you know and to be honest that's why i kind of believe the story to a degree is you know and and i don't want to you know i can't divulge really the the circumstances behind the case but from what he was accused of i believe the prosecutor had an agenda just because of who he was in the community i believe there was an agenda they had and and this is the sad part it's prosecution sometimes is like a bulldog that latches on to something and refuses and then of course even if they know they're wrong they can't go back because of lawsuits and and so it's sad 20 years of this man's life the prime and really the prime of his life um when i do counseling i said you know i said if you're really young when you get caught you got time to recover if you're really old and retired it's not that big of a deal because you've lived but when you get caught for a crime in your 30s or 40s that's when you know and i tell them that's when you make the most money financially that's when you raise and rear your children and you go to prison and you have really the vast majority of your life and you know and that leads to uh the gospel to a degree is really is this it that you were put on this earth to just commit a crime and go to prison and come out and die you know isn't there more you know to this to this life and is there something more in the afterlife you know um that that that is what's you know and a sad part is that most of these guys come from you know a lot of them are low -income families they they were raised they committed just another crime and that's all they all they knew and they don't they don't know um the god of the bible um or even have an understanding of what true theology is because a lot of them were raised in either not in church or they were raised in a church that was a false gospel have you developed a keen sense to detect i mean obviously you wouldn't be infallible uh in regard to this uh but have you are you confident that you developed a keen sense to be able to detect whether someone is being truthful or lying about something like pedophilia here's here's here's here's my joke i often use when i'm at because i'm asked that question a good bit i said i'm almost always right about the guys that are going to mess up but i'm more i'm more never more wrong when i think the guy is not going to mess up that's the ones who a lot of times that's the reason we polygraph you know you're of your you're a liar and you're a father of the devil you know um so you so you trust polygraphs you think that they're reliable i trust a polygrapher more so than the polygraph and i deal with a very good polygrapher who's been doing it since the 80s and he was a he was a an investigator um my the owner of the company i worked for he went to polygraph school very sharp very sharp and you know he's he's a former catholic agnostic quote -unquote and um god has god has placed me um very much in a position where i am around certainly um a reformed mindset probably one of the only ones in the country with a reformed mindset who's doing uh counseling with with sex offenders um and i i think that gives me a keen eye a keen eye and and i and i i use discernment you know i think charismatic would call it a prophecy but i believe in discernment um i believe in being polemical i believe that there is a need to study and know the behaviors of someone and understand that people are self -centered they're self -righteous they are uh in a belief and i deal with a lot of narcissism which is basically biblical pride and they they want to get over on me you know they want a lot of some of them know the game of the system um and you know it's no different than in the church there are people in the church who presented their pastor well look i'm this good christian and and i'm a good moral person and and they believe that their works righteousness is going to get them into heaven just like you know these guys believe that they're going to have a works righteous you know conscience that is going to convince me that they're cured quote -unquote and um that's that's where we are and you know you brought up um the question earlier is there a cure well the cure obviously is jesus christ for their sins now whether it's something they're going to struggle with that that sin that so easily entangles them i deal i deal with this guy i believe he's converted he has an issue with homosexuality he refuses to be that way but he falls into it well once a year he engages in a homosexual act and he comes to me crying repentant and he tells me this before the polygraph and i believe is no different than someone in your congregation who said pastor i've looked at porn this week pastor i had too much to drink this week you never hear one says pastor ate too much this week but we we tend to pick and choose our sins that we want to look at and it's usually the sins that we don't struggle with that we point out in others and and that's that's the scary part is that we condemn instead of have compassion for someone and i see jesus being compassionate towards sinners yes he did judge them but i believe he judged the ones who were not repentant those who were not sorrowful for their sins the one who comes with with true sorrow and true remorse and they're looking i don't like being this way that's who that's who i believe is someone that is is working through their salvation with truth having said what you said do you don't you think or should i say do you think i don't want to feed my own opinions into your head but let me just tell you where i have some difficulty in our day and age with modern evangelicalism is that they seem to be buying too much of the secular society's understanding and view of homosexuality and even many conservative evangelicals who would view it as a sin will actually categorize a group of people as homosexual and will uh deem them as homosexual christians who happen to be chaste or gay christians and it appears as if it is buying too much into the world's understanding of being homosexual or or if it if that is even a category because that's an activity it's a sin and i don't think that we should necessarily be defining ourselves by sinful activities but uh you don't hear people saying i'm a fornicating christian right i'm an adultery christian you know why is that the sexual sin that we we want to say oh you identify with that sexual sin okay well i used to be a fornicator i used to be an adulterer or i still am i mean because that's what they're doing they're actually still participating in an unrepentant ongoing sin what i find interesting and i deal i deal with homosexuals in in my my group um i still treat them with respect and dignity as human beings um i'm very careful in my groups to guys who use derogatory epitaphs to them um but i i certainly i don't condone it um and this is the issue of ethics within my field um my as i said i'm working on my doctorate now my first class uh is dealing with the ethics of that and and counselors who are going to be forced within such a way um who are going to be forced some of the ethics now say that you cannot refuse to treat a transsexual someone who is homosexual and that's one of the ethics and that's why a lot of christians are not getting licensed now professional counselors are like myself are not getting a license because of those new ethics but you know what's funny if a guy said i refuse to treat sex offenders they wouldn't bat an eye because i know several who refuse to treat sex offenders and so it's almost this agenda that counselors are being forced into um i've spoken to several legals and you know worry that you know i'm going to maybe something i've said in a sermon is going to be used against me as a counselor um someone i refuse to counsel a certain way is going to be used against me um so there's definitely an agenda uh toward that sin um and look if you're if your only testimony is i used to be a homosexual or how's that any different i used to be a fornicator or adulterer i mean to me yes god's grace but god's grace didn't save a homosexual any different than he saved anyone else it's the same grace his justification is equal his justification is equal so i i don't i don't understand the church's desire to embrace it we don't embrace any other sin like it's as if especially obviously you you are baffled when you hear evangelicals who embrace it as not necessarily embrace it as something good but they embrace it as something that god cannot change myself personally i'm about ready to disavow the term evangelical it doesn't it doesn't you know i think r .c.

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sprawl says imputationist might be a better term um i look i think there's a reason that most as reformed there's a reason that most of us have small churches is because we don't cater to the mindset of the world we believe in the sufficiency of scripture um what's very scary to me is the same people who fought for inerrancy and believe in inerrancy don't trust the sufficiency of scripture and even in the counseling of the people within the church now i do have and i want to make sure i say this um understanding is that the only thing that scripture is sufficient to counsel the lost is the gospel you can preach the gospel but they cannot understand they can't see no matter what i try to counsel them from the bible they may they may have some mental assent to it but it becomes very difficult and so if you choose to be a christian who counsels you have to see yourself as a sword of the state if it's in forensics that your goal there is to protect society it is to uh to make sure that they don't reoffend that they don't harm anyone else whether men women or children and if so i i testify as an expert witness in court and i have and i've testified and sent many to prison um and that sometimes uh that romans one we do know that there are some who are reprobate and i now i don't know who they are right only god knows them but we do know they exist yes and when someone presents signs that they do not care what happens to society totally well hardened conscious yes the those that are hard and i've come across those and and i i can't we we don't understand we can't fathom it and there's stories i could tell that would you know would would you know just mess with your listeners minds that i've had to deal with i've seen and heard stuff that the depths of depravity of man is almost like that old show the shadow who knows god knows right the the hearts of men and it is desperately wicked and don't don't let us forget that is that we're desperately wicked and and i come across men who are desperately wicked and have their only desire is to harm and to hurt and um and but yet the grace of god can if he so chooses to reach down and save them i think a valuable way to come to the conclusion of our interview would be for you to give practical advice to churches or perhaps anyone teachers and others who are involved in any kind of activities that involve children scout masters whatever the case may be coaches in fact i know that you're involved in martial arts i think people who are training children martial arts so there's a whole obviously countless things that we could come up with but perhaps with a particular focus on churches obviously since this is a christian radio program i would assume that the advice that you would give to churches on how to be best on the alert and best prevent acts of child molestation or other kinds of sexual assault would also be simultaneously and very often ways to prevent false accusations of these things so if you could give us some practical counsel on that um those i have four children i love my daughters very much but there's a point where i'm glad when they go to bed i'm glad when they go visit my parents on occasion and me and my wife can have a break we understand that as parents so if you have someone who comes in your church who all they want to do every waking moment is to spend time in your nursery in your children's program with your youth program let your radar antennas be up because nobody likes to be around children all the time those are the ones that you have to be very those who immediately try to get involved in your kids program without being vetted anytime that they're alone with children there seems to be some some quietness one of the things i will tell you is believe the children's stories no matter how off the wall it is if it seems strange to you even though we give people the benefit of the doubt as christians remember we're all sinners and that once you once you look back in retrospect you go man how did i not see that well the reason was you you didn't want to see it because you didn't want to believe what you thought trust your instincts to a degree um vet your people your insurance company is making you get the background checks sometimes those do do help have your church do trainings with your children and nursery workers follow your insurance policies i will say two things i'd like to say if you have an accusation of your church first three calls you should make number one to your insurance company number two to your lawyer and number three to the proper officials to report it believe the victim first before you believe the perpetrator and follow biblical principles of of church discipline and um but again i want to reiterate call your insurance call your lawyer report it to the authorities because you are mandated if a victim reports it in most every state the state of georgia is one of them that now requires pastors to report if the victim tells it now if the perpetrator tells it in georgia you still have the um that confidence of the quote -unquote priesthood here in georgia but um again um i'm i'm a um i work with striving for eternity ministries uh with the report yes i'm on his board and i'm one of their speakers if your church would like me to come in and uh to do a talk on on this i would i would gladly do that i do these talks on a regular basis so you can reach us at striving for eternity and you can find us there through google and so thank you great and uh well just briefly obviously i couldn't just completely pass by your experience and your skill involving brazilian jiu -jitsu because it's obviously an unusual thing i've had programs on martial arts with a couple of folks who are black belts in various martial arts and there is obviously some level of controversy and that kind of a thing because there are christians who think that anything that evokes violence of any kind is improper is sinful and obviously i i would believe that training oneself to better protect not only themselves but their their wives their children and others who are uh less capable of defending themselves i think is a is a very noble and good thing but tell us something about your view of the martial arts as a christian how you got involved in them and how you specifically uh were drawn to this unique form of martial art well i guess i could talk about that as about as long as i did with the sex offenders but but in short i was bullied as a child i was much smaller than i am now when i was 17 my youngest my middle brother started karate and i was like no way he started karate gonna be able to beat me up too so we started karate and i progressed through that and eventually i ran into some people who in seminary who were doing brazilian jiu -jitsu i played around with a little bit but became involved in it pretty heavily in 1996 when i started seminary i helped start a program at southeastern seminary we had a you know for those who talk about it the seminary itself had a martial arts program i taught brazilian jiu -jitsu and i've been involved in brazilian jiu -jitsu for about 20 years now and we actually have started a podcast on the bible thumping wingnut network lynn pettis and i are doing grappling with theology and we discuss many of the questions that you just brought up we we take um martial arts um self -defense and those aspects and we transition them to topics of theology and the gospel how can you transition you know what you do in in the sports world you know how can you do it in the martial arts world how do you transition that and we're going to talk about different topics that um a lot of martial arts um enthusiasts who are christians deal with and how they have to respond and act to those questions and so um that mentality of martial arts is one that i deal with just about like the sex it seems like i deal on the fringe of a lot of things that christians like really can a christian do that can a christian be involved in that and um i would say yes it's your right motive don't let it be your idol um i know people whose martial arts is their idol you know we're idol factories as calvin said we're we're constantly trying to put something in place of god don't don't let anything you know any sport i know christians who let basketball in north carolina during that time their idol you know sunday's is is their football idol so no different and uh obviously uh indianapolis would be a place where that would be from um indiana um the um before we go i'd like you to give perhaps some advice to christians who may have an interest in pursuing or investigating being involved in martial arts i have interviewed as i said a couple of christians pastors who have been very prolific and skilled and they achieve very high levels of expertise and success in the martial arts who have distinguished between those martial arts that do not have as innate aspects of them pagan worship pagan or occultic philosophy religion worship and those that are basically neutral in regard to those things activities in the martial arts forms of martial arts that do not require one actually do things that would be uh involving occultic practices or pagan practices whether one views them with a religious uh ideology or not um if you could give your own thoughts on that well i was drawn to brazilian jiu -jitsu because it was basically surely invented um at the time for a smaller guy to be able to defend himself against a larger person it was invented solely martial and no arts even though there is art it's a beautiful sport very if you understand it and understand what these people are able to do and see and how they're able to do these techniques you you look at and you're going no way he just did that that's the beauty of it it is i like the beautiful patterns that the blood splatter makes well you know and then that's that's definitely one one of the issues but you know again brazilian jiu -jitsu is definitely and and voddie bachman we we interviewed voddie bachman uh he he received his blue belt in brazilian jiu -jitsu in competition and he talked about the how it how you're humbled by it but one of the things i want to know how you achieve the miracle of interviewing voddie bachman i've been trying jiu -jitsu oh that's it okay he's passionate he's passionate about jiu -jitsu and as soon as i saw him light up i was like he loves this sport um very much in the same way any any you know any any parent who takes their children to a martial arts school um sit and watch and listen and see how the kids respond how they act that have been there for a while talk to the parents you know read what the reviews are i mean we live in a modern age of facebook that school is on facebook you can see the reviews yelp may have some reviews you know kind of get some ideas um make sure that they are legitimate instructors that they're not you know just something there to collect your money month to month and your child never really achieves anything you know most american martial arts today very little of them are really eastern philosophies you may get some of that you know in the kung fu or things like that but most if you go to a average taekwondo school or brazilian jiu -jitsu school they're emphasizing respect confidence how to treat one another and it's teaching them to deal with adversity and not be bullied you know and that's a total different aspect today is that we we have gone bully crazy to a degree and i'm not you know i'm not completely convinced that what everybody says is bullying is always bullying we use that term a lot i was talking to jordan hall about polemics and bullying how people accuse him of being a bully when he's just telling people the truth so um find a school that is going to fit your fit your child and and and listen to see what they're doing you know i mean are they teaching them transcendental meditation you know um but but again you're more than likely going to be your child is going to be getting secular worldview and make sure that you know that what they're learning is conducive to christianity and that you are following up with them and making sure they understand that if they're learning something make sure they're learning the biblical principle that is involved with that and teach them to be analytical about understanding and and are they teaching them to hurt others you know martial arts can be very much to defend or to harm and so that's that's my suggestion well i'd like you to close with once again repeating any kind of contact information you care to share now striving for eternity .org

01:01:45

that's our website uh with andrew rapaport and we have anthony silvestro from creation revival uh the bible thumping wingnut network you can find me on there um our podcast should be out within the first a couple episodes out in the next month um you can find us on there um you can reach me if you want to through email rfmullisjr at gmail .com

01:02:08

rf as in frank mullis mullis m -u -l -l -i -s jr jr as in junior at gmail .com

01:02:17

great well it's been an honor and a privilege to interview you today brother i'm glad thank you it was wonderful thank you so much all right god bless well we're going to a station break right now i truly enjoyed that fascinating interview with frank mullis and hope you did as well if you'd like to join us on the air here i am announcing my email address for uh questions when i am completely forgetting that we are not doing a live show but airing the g3 conference interviews i apologize for that false start there but we're going to a break right now don't go away we're coming right back after these messages iron sharpens iron welcomes solid rock remodeling to our family of sponsors serving south central pennsylvania solid rock remodeling is focused on discovering understanding and exceeding your expectations they deliver personalized project solutions with exceptional results solid rock remodeling offers a full range of home renovations including kitchen and bath remodeling decks porches windows and doors roof and siding and more for a clear detailed professional estimate call this trustworthy team of problem solvers who provide superior results that stand the test of time call solid rock remodeling at 717 -697 -1981 717 -697 -1981 or visit solidrockremodeling .com

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forward slash iron sharpens today Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read he who never quotes will never be quoted he will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own you need to read solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart the mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world since it's beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting books for all ages we invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com

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that's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from solid ground solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio iron sharpens iron radio is sponsored by harvey cedars a year -round bible conference and retreat center nestled on the jersey shore harvey cedars offers a wide range of accommodations to suit groups up to 400 for generations christians have enjoyed gathering and growing at harvey cedars each year thousands of high school and college students come and learn more about god's word an additional 9 000 come annually to harvey cedars as families couples singles men women pastors seniors and missionaries 90 miles from new york city 70 miles from philly and 95 miles from wilmington and easily accessible scores of notable christian groups frequently planned conferences at harvey cedars like the navigators intervarsity christian fellowship campus crusade and the alliance of confessing evangelicals find harvey cedars on facebook or at hcbible .org

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hcbible .org call 609 -494 -5689 609 -494 -5689 harvey cedars where christ finds people and changes lives paul wrote to the church at galatia for am i now seeking the approval of man or of god or am i trying to please man if i were still trying to please man i would not be a servant of christ hi i'm mark lukens pastor of providence baptist church we are reformed baptist church and we hold to the london baptist confession of faith of 1689 we are in nofolk massachusetts we strive to reflect paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how god views what we say and what we do than how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity but since that wasn't the apostles priority it must not be ours either we believe by god's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of christ in truth and love if you live near nofolk massachusetts or plan to visit our area please come and join us for worship and fellowship you can call us at 508 -528 -5750 that's 508 -528 -5750 or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our tv program entitled resting in grace you can find us at providence baptist church ma .org

01:10:23

that's providence baptist church ma .org or even on sermonaudio .com providence baptist church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio hi i'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm eastern time on wlie radio www .wlie540am

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.com we bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions our time will be lively useful and i assure you never dull join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor welcome back and uh i just heard some uh good news uh it actually had to do with an error i made at the beginning of the program i believe i said that the uh morning drive slot that iron sharpens iron's pre -recorded version uh is airing uh on during the lineup of grace in lake city florida 90 .1

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fm i believe i erroneously said 8 30 to 10 30 a .m

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but it's actually 8 to 10 a .m which i think is even better uh because it keeps it more in that drive time period when people are commuting to work and so on so it is uh the the pre -recorded version of iron sharpens iron airing daily on wpgt 90 .1

01:12:08

fm grace life radio in lake city florida and also of course airing live every day monday through friday via live streaming 4 to 6 p .m

01:12:20

eastern on iron sharpens iron radio .com and we are now returning to our pre -recorded interviews that we conducted on site at the g3 conference in atlanta georgia between january 19th and the 21st and we are going now to an interview we had with cameron butel and i hope that you are blessed by this uh this interview as well and uh please uh as this uh prepares to play keep praying for iron sharpens iron radio as we need sponsors very urgently so here we are this is chris arnzen of iron sharpens iron radio here live at the g3 conference in atlanta georgia and um going about speaking to some of the folks who are here and at the exhibitors booth right next to mine we have representing grace to you ministries which is the ministry of john macarthur i'm sure most of the iron sharpens iron listeners are fully aware of uh dr macarthur and his ministry and we have cameron butel here and i'd like to find out more about uh cameron uh why he is here in the states all the way from his homeland in australia and what led him to the master's seminary and grace to you but it's a honor to have you on today cameron well thanks for having me chris and uh as i said you are from australia whereabouts in australia a small western queensland town called chinchilla but probably best i spent most of my adult life in the city of brisbane which is the third largest city and i'm assuming that's where the animal comes from the chinchilla no no not actually no it's um it's a mistake the aboriginals there was pine trees out there it's a very dry area but there was pine trees and the aboriginals called them gingilla and the people who heard them say it thought they said chinchilla so no connection to the animal all right and uh so what uh brought you from australia all the way here to the united states and specifically to master's seminary well actually um my wife is danish and we lived in australia for the first six years of our marriage when she was pregnant with our second child she wanted to go back home to denmark and i agreed to that so we lived in denmark it was at that time when the internet was really coming alive with with um information i was i was starting to hunt down good sources good water holes to drink from so to speak and getting better understanding of the gospel but also of ecclesiology and at church and and and we were naive in going to denmark because when we got there as we really looked close and we hunted and so forth we found there was no gospel preaching churches there wow in the whole country we couldn't find any no it's a country of five million people we really couldn't find anywhere that was faithful to the gospel even it's very liberal lutheran predominantly there's a few conservative lutherans but even the conservative lutherans are really mainly big on baptismal regeneration so it was really grim um there was some prosperity that the other vibrant churches if you want to say that were prosperity churches but there was no faithful gospel preaching no one really um faithfully um teaching the doctrine of man you know a right understanding of man a right understanding of the gospel the the cross and need to repent our guilt before god the reality of judgment just those things were completely absent from everywhere we looked and you're talking about a very tiny population a lot of people token lutherans through baptism i think 80 of the population are baptized but sprinkled as babies they'll go to church a few times in their life they'll go there for their baptism for their confirmation for their marriage and for their funeral maybe some christmases and easters but it's a very token and uh even among the lutheran churches there's no real belief in the bible certainly no reflection on the life and teaching of martin luther whatsoever so obviously if you went to master seminary eventually there must have been some belief that you had a call upon a call from god placed upon your heart to pursue the ministry in some way yeah well it's amazing how far a lot of anger can take you i guess i was just i was really ticked off i was really frustrated um we found some other believers around the country i worked very hard through social media i think to find other believers but i was the one who was on sufficiently ticked off to make some trouble and and try and make some things happen and we managed to get some believers together and eventually with the help of paul washer who graciously came and visited us we were able to plant a church there and i took on the preaching responsibility not that i was a trained preacher but someone had to preach so i i ended up preaching working in a factory and preaching um but it was and by the grace of god you know god graces us to do things beyond what we're capable of especially in desperate circumstances and so god has still prospered the work of the reformed churches that we planted in denmark and uh we're very grateful for that but at the same time you know i i am not being danish i it was very hard to really support ourselves um also i wanted to preach better you know martin lloyd jones called logic on fire and when you hear i think sermon audio and hearing through wretched radio and things like that i really started to hear just amazing preachers just preaching that just made me sore and and i really wanted to do that you know i really want to preach um just great sermons because god is great i want to represent him in a great way you know his his word deserves to be preached in a in a in a powerful life -changing turning your world upside down kind of way and so to you from the land down under to use that reference yeah that's right that's right no truth to the rumor that the toilet water circles the other way there's no truth to that but um i wanted to go and the fact was you know listening to different people there's there was a number of good preachers but john macarthur i saw his theology consistently applied in every sphere and see were you exposed to that through tv radio literature initially through wretched by the master radio that became wretched they'd play sound bites of him and i'd go and check out but my favorite stuff was things like john macarthur went on larry king and i just thought this is how it should be done he's not he's not being a jerk but he's not backing down and he's speaking clear propositional truth he's preaching profound truth simply and excessively but he's not apologizing and i saw his theology what he preached consistently applied whether he's talking to a church member or a elder or a false teacher or a or in the secular media or to politicians it was consistent all the way you know so he was i always said he's one of the only preachers who could go on tv and lower my blood pressure at the same time and so when the theological bombs were dropping i wanted to be in his trench so there was no question in our mind my mind i wanted to go to the master's seminary because he's president there that was the main reason and i was heavily influenced by his series on the doctrines of grace and so i wanted to go there how long ago was that master the another reason was master seminary is the only seminary in america to have an in and out burger on the same street so that was a that was the clincher probably yeah i have not had the privilege of eating there yet but uh so how long ago was that you uh i started master's seminary in january of 2012 and i recently graduated last summer so i've graced you hired me during my time at master's seminary they liked about me the things that most people hated so what would those things be i think a passion for the truth and a commitment to understanding paul's expectation in galatians one is that the gospel is knowable and easily differentiated from a false gospel and people should be held to account for that we have a responsibility to get that right and so yeah i i was um intensely disliked in denmark by a lot of people people didn't really want me to i guess what would rather i just go away you mean are you talking about your average lost person or even brothers no you know not actually professing believers mainly church leaders you know i was a problem because i was um what we were preaching we were really making waves and they didn't like it they wanted us to go away these would be like mainstream evangelicals it's hard to say you know what yeah yeah you could say you're you're run -of -the -mill um 40 days of your best prayer of jaybez now kind of kind of church i guess they didn't like us and that's understandable you know i don't expect them to like me i've always said you can you know they say you can judge a man by his friends i like to think you can also judge a man by his enemies and i like to think i made the right kind of enemies please say you know other people i guess it's up to other people to to judge that but i like to think that and certainly um they appreciated the work that i'd done over there and they were they were keen to um have me as part of their research and writing there on the in the web department so i write on the blog now grace to you and it's it's a real honor and privilege because i absolutely love the ministry i love the people i work for and i it's not just that i i understand the importance of the ministry for someone who's in a far -flung corner of the world grace to you was like drinking from a fire hydrant for me you know so and i like to drink from a fire hydrant i think that's the best way to drink so i i was very grateful that um i was able to tap into that resource learn in a sense that's how i did the best i could to to preach and and and learning about i guess a blueprint for a church blueprint for gospel preaching to doing ministry and they were just um incredible blessing that the vault was thrown open at grace to you and i was able to access their material and use that and so that very grateful for that and i'm acutely aware there are other people in far -flung corners of the world who might be struggling to find a church something you need help and that's lifeblood for them and so i'm i counted a great honor to serve there and i i want to see the ministry flourish because i think it's important that it it reaches all those obscure corners of the world and uh while you're there in california are you still thinking contemplating about pursuing pastoral ministry anywhere yeah i mean my my greatest desire is to preach um writing is my second outlet and it is a wonderful outlet a great blessing that i'm able to be employed and and do that i can't believe that you know i guess i feel like the kid who played nintendo all his life and then he gets hired by nintendo to test all the games out so there is a kid in the candy store i guess kind of experience for me in a way but um my greatest desire is to preach and i do some preaching at the moment i'm in a little bit of a visa limbo just in a bit of a in -between holding pattern kind of situation so we're just waiting to see what happens with opportunities and so forth but my greatest desire is to preach but certainly any opportunity i have to to to um contend for once for all delivered faith i i that thrills me and i i counted a great privilege and i i i hope and pray that i do it in a way that honors the god who saved me and obviously uh god's plans are often different than our own but uh do you what is the place that you envision at least eventually becoming a preacher would you prefer to stay here in the states do you have a longing to return to australia uh any or perhaps even denmark or someplace else yeah people ask me about homesickness sometimes and i and i say to them you know i felt homesick all my life and then i came here you know so um i love america not for the reasons a lot of people might think i i i i know america has many problems but the thing i love about america is it's still it's the heartland of good and bad theology but it's it's um everyone in america is an evangelist for something and it's alive and so um i would take an atheist who hates me over a fellow believer who's indifferent because i like the um the contending that that it matters and that we're alive and it's on and it's happening and i love that um at least in america i guess there are people who take these things uh very seriously it's where the opportunity has been but i'm open to an opportunity anywhere um and i do preach now but as a pastor we'll see what opportunities open up and what happens i guess um i'm waiting and seeing and just trying to um work hard with whatever doors open to me and by the way uh you may not know this but one of your superiors at grace to you is supposed to be joining us very soon phil johnson is going to be uh sitting down with us and having a little interview but uh before you go i want to get your reflections i can guarantee you the interview with phil is going to be a whole lot better never a dull moment with phil johnson yes i've had phil on my program many times it's amazing to me how accessible he makes himself to me and that's a great great honor and blessing and it's very humbling actually that he uh even sometimes with very little notice has come on the show if a guest canceled or something i'm glad you say that because you know a lot of people don't notice phil is an exceedingly kind man who is zealous about the truth in person and he's and he's uh he's the the the the man in james that talks about those who are respecters of persons and that sin of being the sin of partiality phil is the opposite of that as much as i can think of anyone being the opposite of that just in terms of his generosity with people who even he doesn't know of his time so yeah it'll definitely be a better interview i i think of phil sometimes as a walking ground zero there's always something happening around him but i'm sure that interview there won't be a dull moment but before before you go i'd like to get some of your insights or reflections on the the differences between being in australia and anywhere else in the world where you have lived or visited in in contrast the united states yeah i i think i i was kind of alluding to that earlier when i was talking about what i liked about america um that the difference is many places in australia and in europe there is an indifference there is just a cultural indifference to almost everything and people complain america's going that way but it's still very different americans aren't indifferent americans energize and gather around things you know even when it's wrong they still they still will get worked up about it you know people are passionate about things people are not neutral about things and i like that i like that i think that's a great marketplace of ideas where things are thrashed out and i like to be there where that's happening um i find it insufferable to be in a place of indifference where people don't care either way about anything and there is that um there is a in australia we say that she'll be right you know it'll all work out it'll be okay no need to worry about it i think because no one worries about anything because things sometimes action often doesn't get taken when it needs to be so um and i and i encountered that with i guess things that mattered i thought even relating to hillsong church in australia which is a a very problematic issue in australia on the evangelical scene they are a huge problem because of the false gospel they preach they're man -centered gospel which which dominates everything but there's just widespread reluctance to really say anything about it and so you know at grace to you i had opportunity we actually had opportunity to write a series about that and not i hope it doesn't come across as self -promotion but i would hope people would go to our website and and check that out because i think it's an important issue a lot of people don't know about and i would like that information to circulate in fact i'd like you to give the url or whatever way else that people can find that a series of articles because i have friends and brothers in christ who routinely will email me youtube links for hillsong music and they just think the world of hillsong and i became first aware that there was something seriously wrong i believe it when my friend dr james r white started to be critical of a softness on the sin of homosexuality that seems to be prevalent amongst those involved in that when you are a pragmatist and this is something a really important thing i've learned that doctrinally we want to have good doctrine we want to have good doctrine but a good doctrine statement can sometimes be a smokescreen and when you are a pragmatist the thing you want to ask someone with a good doctrine statement still is your allegiance to your doctrine statement greater than your allegiance to your pragmatism because if not then that can change depending on the circumstances and so um with with things like hillsong you know people can get the um you can read a doctrine statement can sound right but they're not preaching what they're saying they're they're they're saying what appeals to people but also doctrine statement is just there for jerks like me to back off you know and and and see that hey we're orthodox we're sound and and that's a that's a really um sneaky deception these days so what is the i don't know if you know by heart but is there a certain link where someone could find yes sorry the the articles we did an article hillsong and worship hillsong's view of worship hillsong's view of god and hillsong's view of man and we did a post script based on a lot of the comments and i i think the comment threads are very interesting to read some um some senior pastors at hillsong actually commented in the blog thread it's interesting to see how what they said and how they reacted to but if you go to gty .org

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forward slash blog then you'll find a list of our articles and go back into i think november and december of last year and you're going to see those articles or you could just google hillsong and man hillsong and god hillsong and worship and you should find those articles at grace to you but i think it's important information i hope it circulates and spreads far and wide and did you say so you you just mentioned that um someone from leadership in hillsong was responding to it on the blog yeah there was a comment by one of their their executive pastor in sydney joel abel he uh put a posted a comment on there again not dealing with the substance of what we say i just don't like what you're saying oh okay so he wasn't saying what you're saying is a misrepresentation oh yeah he said it was all false but he didn't really yeah but yeah it's it's not true he called us there's no grace in what we say nor is there any truth either um but he didn't again and that's the typical the way they do it of course he didn't engage with anything that was said or point out anything that was wrong he just said it was wrong you know and that's that's the way yeah you should be false teachers that's that's that's false teacher 101 right yeah to to say that somebody's wrong and offer no documentation just cry foul um right we saw it all through the strange fire conference you know people crying foul this is no good we don't like it you know people need to differentiate there's a difference between factual error and just not liking i mean some fact there's a lot of facts we don't like but that doesn't make them wrong by the way i don't know if you've met uh a pastor who's right down the aisle from me here he was affiliated with grace life radio but he uh is a pastor in the church of god denomination which is a pentecostal denomination and the strange fire conference radically transformed his thinking on the uh cessationist continuous debate uh he is now a cessationist uh as a result of witnessing the the strange fire conference i don't know if he was physically there or sort on the internet or what have you who didn't see it it's like the whole internet exploded the day john macarthur preached the first sermon there i think a very important point about strange fire that got lost in all of the fighting that happened after it was cessationism and continuationism were not the major issues they were issues it was part of the argument but the issue the real issues were even pleading with conservative charismatic leaders to call out the wolves right to deal with it so even if you don't become a cessation the point is that please speak up make a dividing line between yourself and the heretics because they get legitimacy you know i think the really unfortunate thing about um john piper who have learned a lot from appearing at passion conference is he doesn't really gain a lot from that they gain a lot from his credibility they can they keep doing what they're doing and they get a bit of theological credibility as well are they some of these people whether they mean to or not become enablers and it's it's it's a really uh unfortunate thing and so i maintain that the strange fire conference should have initially been done years ago decades ago by continuationists and charismatics who are sound on the gospel and who care about biblical truth and are offended by the circus that is going on dominates social media and christian television and at strange fire i wrote an article and just googled this the elephant in the strange fire where i raised 11 major questions that no one was answering after strange fire that was put forth for example the statistics that were brought out that 90 of charismatic churches in in i think in asia and africa are prosperity gospel churches preach the prosperity the prosperity heresy people were offended by that but no one really made any effort to refute that and all people wanted to debate was cessationism and yet if if you're going to deny the truth of that then come forward with some evidence or agree with it that that was i guess you expect that but that can be a frustrating thing so that article the elephant in the strange fire i think is an important article because gets to the what many of the really important issues were about strange and and michael brown who criticized it relentlessly and he is supposed to be a clear thinking one of the better clear thinking charismatics um you know he said that's just the fringes that's just well is the fringe the mainstream that's the question and just a few days later he appeared on benny hin's show which was only reinforcing our argument all along it was it was surreal so um you have a problem with that do i have a problem with that i was just kidding yeah i know i think it's it's a self almost self -explanatory self -fulfilling prophecy right there i don't know if i don't know if i told you but i was speaking to somebody earlier about how years ago when i was doing my show in new york i got a call from somebody involved with benny hin's ministry who was setting up his speaking engagement at madison square garden and they asked me they must have just looked through some kind of an internet list or something of for talk shows christian talk shows and he said we would love to have benny hin on your program and i said uh to the person who called me i would too but i have to tell you that when he comes on i'll be exposing him as a false teacher because i believe that he's one of the most dangerous uh professing christians in the media leading people astray and to hell with a false message and he said well well thank you anyway and he hung up and i sometimes i i kick myself for being that blunt even though i know a christian should never lie i'm not sure a christian always has to divulge all the information to somebody when they're involved in a conversation because i actually uh at some i actually sometimes wish that i had had benny hin on to uh have a uh an expose if you will but uh i was i was following my my instincts as a christian just to be completely open about it really is staggering that he's had a ministry as long as he has when he i mean someone justin peters pointed out to me he can't find a prophecy he's got right do you know if i start i could start a prophetic ministry and if i made a hundred prophecies you know i'm not getting prophetic words but but if i made a hundred i would expect to maybe get i expect to you know hit the bullseye on occasion right yeah if you take me out to the three -point ring and i throw 20 balls one will go through on pure luck so you'd think i'd hit it on occasion but benny it's always if god is telling us making it so clear benny's a false prophet because he gets everything wrong he's got like a hundred percent success rate at getting it wrong that's it people even even even christians and even professing christians seem to have amnesia when it comes to that it's like he can have make all the false prophecies that he cares to and it doesn't seem to affect anyone who still continues to follow him uh and of course the idolatry has a lot to do with it because there are people who uphold him as an idol and it doesn't really matter what he may do wrong some people follow uh people right into their graves just like with the classic example would be jonestown guyana uh it doesn't seem to matter what the person does or says uh they will follow that person but uh i am so blessed that uh that you've come on iron sharpens iron today here live at the g3 conference and i look forward to further communication with you and perhaps getting you on the program sometime in the future to more fully address hillsong or something well thank you for that chris it was great being on the show fortunately for me the only amnesia i suffer from involves my car keys i think that's fairly universal it's a man thing i think yeah right and this has been a camera cameron butel uh and by the way how do you how do you pronounce cameron am i pronounced yes cameron butel uh from grace to you ministries and originally from australia and it's been an honor and i look forward to speaking to you again at some point in the future god willing that'd be great thanks god bless well i hope you enjoyed that uh interview as well as much as i did and we are now going to conclude the program with our final interview of the day and this is an interview that i uh conducted with philip sessa so i hope it blesses you and that uh that you are left with something to help enable you to be a better soldier for christ and a better evangelist a better disciple a better member of the body of christ and uh here is our interview with philip sessa and chris arnzen here again uh and now participating in perhaps my final interview of the g3 conference in atlanta georgia i have philip sessa who is i believe the founder of soul fishing yes sir and it's a ministry that he is going to describe and it just so happens that providentially not only was phil's booth exhibitors booth right next to the iron chirpins iron booth but we've discovered that we have mutual friends in common including his pastor and phil if you could before you even go into soul fishing tell us about the church where uh i go to grace baptist church in woodhaven queens uh pastor peter nicotra i help serve alongside him uh he's very godly man and as we were searching for a local church we wanted a healthy local church i was specifically looking for two main things one a man that handles the word of god very well and one that that lovingly shepherds his people and everything else for us kind of umbrellaed under those two things amen and pete has been a friend of mine for many years as has his former pastor and fellow colleague in ministry at north shore baptist church i've known pastor ed for quite a long time i believe going back to 1990 or whatever the year was that ed first became pastor at north shore baptist church in bayside queens i i got to know ed within weeks of him taking that post and then subsequently became friends with pete nicotra and i i cherish many memories fellowshipping with those brethren and i hope that you extend my warm regards to them amen i will do that and can do that so tell us about soul fishing how the concept came up in your mind and and when you first launched it so uh when i was in bible college a friend of mine began to disciple me he asked me if i was going to get married and have children one day and i said yes and he said well what are you going to do when you have a child you're going to have somebody else raise that child i said of course not and the reason he asked me that was because initially prior to that he asked me what do you want to do for christ what does god called you to do and i said i believe god's called me to be an evangelist go out and win the world for jesus and then so he really put my feet to the fire and said shouldn't you be able to raise kids spiritually and not just point them to christ which is the greatest need that they have but when they do come to christ how are you going to help them to grow and so at that time my response was i will just uh introduce him to the pastor and that will be his job that will be his burden and he said wrong that should be your job and your burden you should be able to spiritually raise people if god uses you if you will to birth them into the kingdom you should be able to raise them in the kingdom too shouldn't you and he began to disciple me and he introduced me to greg bonson so in apologetics he also introduced me to john mcarthur's book the gospel according to jesus and now and mind you this was in a pentecostal college before we were reformed and then of course he introduced me to hell's best kept secret how did you get exposed to those materials in a pentecostal college uh the guy that discipled me uh he kind of i guess went outside of the pentecostal circle and he was a disciple by the navigators he's just a fellow student he's a fellow student okay from washington dc his name was cj uh copeland jackson and uh inner city guy uh he was a guy from the army and he said i want you to listen to this this tape it's called hell's best kept secret and um i guess through the navigators and the discipleship with them he got exposed to some of these other ministries and when i first heard how it's best kept secret i didn't really hear it it didn't absorb then again it was 6 30 in the morning and i had just gotten out of bed but i started discipling somebody and that that student had the whole 16 audio cassettes of ray comfort and i was going on spring break and i said i need to borrow these i listen to every one of them and within within like a week my theological world was greatly transformed and so many of the frustrations that i had uh began to be settled with good biblical answers i asked my theology professor why does it seem that so many christians get saved every week i said it's like a yo -yo game and i said this is like yo -yo christianity how do they get saved and unsaved again and then saved again and i i remember asking him i said professor when does it stick and stay because i've i've not walked away from christ how does it get lost again how does this salvation get removed you know why can't it just stay like so i was very frustrated and i heard hell's best kept secret heard true and false conversions there's the answer because people are not being converted that's why they're losing it they never had it you know so they really weren't losing it it wasn't there to begin with right and the reason that i didn't lose it was because it was real it couldn't be lost because god saved me and he was keeping me and i'm sure some people i'm sure you would agree that there are some truly regenerate people who go through that whole treadmill of going forward over and over again because they are judging their salvation by their own emotions correct at the time absolutely absolutely perhaps they're just they know that they're sinners and they perhaps are feeling some kind of guilt and they automatically think they're either they lost their salvation or weren't saved to begin with sure and therefore they're getting manipulated by that whole system agreed agreed when uh when i came out of uh an assembly god bible college i went in i i moved from a suburban area called mayapack and the lord brought me into into new york city in the bronx oh mayapack do you know redmills baptist church yeah james harrison yes great brother yeah i i grew up about five minutes away from that church and um i went to a church about a mile away a pentecostal church near there i wish i would have went to redmills but i guess god in his sovereignty he's done what he's done and he's got me to where he needs me to be uh on this day um well what had taken place was when i when i came out of bible college i went into the bronx i i always worked and did ministry at the same time and i went from one church to another i was an assistant pastor youth pastor children's pastor did everything in there ended up in harlem in new york city assisted in a church plant then took over the church plant it was a hard work um it was built on a really faulty foundation the way the church started off was if you came to church you got a bag of groceries at the end of the service and when that stopped the attendance cut in half i came sometime after that and then that pastor left and i kept it going for a while but since it was built on a faulty foundation i shut it down and just let the thing die eventually but we but one of the things that god did was i really cut my teeth in open air preaching in harlem every thursday night i would preach on the streets there'd be drug dealers a stone's throw away that were probably stoned as well um threatening me i would stand on a steel chair and preach the gospel every thursday night and so god god knew what he was doing of course uh putting me into harlem and it didn't look like i fit in and then we went back to another church and we had started up soul fishing ministries and i asked the pastor at this other church it was called pellon bay assembly of god and he let us put it under their church that pastor ended up being heretical he ended up holding to soul sleep annihilationism and all hosts of other things that are unbiblical he wanted everything through there he he begged he break traditions now they were yarmulkes and prayer shawls i mean it's just ridiculous and the assemblies of god did nothing to discipline him when we brought it up to the assemblies of god because they cared more about i think numbers than doctrine you would probably be more in jeopardy of believing in eternal security or calvinism i guess than those things absolutely absolutely so tell us specifically how the ministry of soul fishing operates and how our listeners could benefit from it so the way soul fishing ministries operates uh we do several things we we come into local churches we train in biblical evangelism and i like to go from the classroom to the streets so once we do the training we might do some role playing we take them out and we like to work through local churches so we want to take the people of that local church not just the leadership the people in the pews out into the streets of their community so that they see their their community as their mission field you know when jesus said a city that is set on a hill should not be hidden that local church is in that community for a reason to reach the people in that community so we need to equip and train them to do that and to make sure that they see that so you know looking at it from a kingdom perspective uh we train people in open air preaching we're training young men in expository preaching so a lot of young men they're not going to go to seminary but some of them may be called to preach paul washer is called to preach he's never been to seminary and so we're training young men and creating teachings and trainings uh you know at a basic level and and we're seeing young men being faithful to the text and delivering a good simple but godly impactful sermons that are faithful to scripture and life -changing so tell our listeners how they can get a hold of you and invite you to participate in something in their congregation sure we have a website soul fishing ministries .org

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you can also call my cell phone 646 -773 -1221 my email is fish dove like to fish in the ocean and the dove in the sky 1122 at gmail .com