March 9, 2018 Show with Earl Blackburn on “Jesus Loves the Church & So Should You” (Part 2)

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this ninth day of March 2018.

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I'm delighted to have back on the program for a second time to address part two of a discussion we began a couple of days ago,

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Jesus Loves the Church and So Should You, Pastor Earl Blackburn, who has been the chairman of the

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Administrative Council of the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America, otherwise known as ARPGA, for eight years.

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He is currently the pastor of Heritage Baptist Church of Shreveport, Louisiana. He's an author of a number of books, including the book that we are addressing today that I just mentioned,

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Jesus Loves the Church and So Should You, and we are going, as I said, to be discussing part two of this topic today, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back for the second time to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Earl Blackburn.

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Thank you Chris, it's a real joy to be with you and I am honored to be back and discuss this topic that I think should be not only central to our own thinking, but it is certainly central to all the redemptive purposes of God and Christ Jesus, and that is the

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Church. Amen, and for anybody who would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, and I could see a question like this, or should

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I say a theme like this, very readily lending itself to someone wanting to remain anonymous because people may not be in membership in a church because of something horrible that happened to them in a church in the past or something like that.

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Perhaps they'd rather not draw attention to their identity for a whole host of reasons, but we will grant your request if that is indeed the case, but otherwise please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.

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Before we go to any of our listener questions, Pastor Earl, for those of our listeners who missed you last time and who have not heard of you before, please let our listeners know about Heritage Baptist Church of Shreveport, Louisiana.

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Heritage Baptist Church is an old established church.

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If you go to our website, hbcshreveport .com, you can see the beautiful building.

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It was built in, we think, 1916 -1917, not certain exactly, and at one time it was in a very prestigious part of the city of Shreveport, but as a result of urban shifting and so forth, the neighborhood began to go down, and the church today is an inner -city church.

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It is a very multiracial, multigenerational, multi -ethnic, and multilingual church.

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We have our services, the sermons especially, translated into at least one other language, and sometimes they're translated, the sermons are translated simultaneously into another language.

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So we have quite a diversity here, and it has been a real thrill to be a part of such a church as that.

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It is a confessional church, meaning that we subscribe fully to the 1689

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Baptist Confession of, London Baptist Confession of Faith. It has historically been a part of the

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Southern Baptist Convention. We are duly aligned, or duly aligned, with both these

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Southern Baptist Convention and the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America.

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And for anybody who wants to look up the website for Heritage Baptist Church, the website is hbcshreveport .com.

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That's HBC for Heritage Baptist Church, Shreveport, S -H -R -E -V as in Victory, E -P as in Peter, O -R -T dot com.

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Well, the last time we left off the discussion on this very topic of Jesus loves the church and so should you, you wanted me to start today's program, part two of this topic, by repeating a question that was sent to us from Joe in Slovenia, because you were very intrigued by that question and you wanted to answer it more fully than you did the time allowed the last time we were on the air.

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So Joe in Slovenia wrote the last time, in part one of this discussion, Dear Brothers Chris and Earl, the church means so much less in our day than when

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I was a youngster. Even then, back in the 1970s, the local church did not have the significance in the lives of most

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Christians that the New Testament teaches us she should. But today our society and lives are so hurried and fractured.

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In our day, do we recover the authenticity, intimacy, and accountability in the church that should be part of a normative

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Christian life? May God bless you both in your ministry in a local church. So if you could respond as you wanted to, in a more full fashion than you did the last time, that we ran out of time and weren't able to address it to your satisfaction anyway.

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Well first of all, I want to thank the brother for sending in this question. He is in Slovenia, so I would assume that he is a church planter or missionary and that...

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He is a Southern Baptist missionary, as he has identified himself that way in the past on our program.

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Well kudos to this father, may the Lord richly bless him and his efforts to propagate the gospel there in that great country and land.

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That's where our First Lady was born and raised. Oh yes, that's right, that's right.

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This question is a pregnant question. It's a superb question, because I think we're living in a day,

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Chris, in which, one, the concept as the

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New Testament teaches it of a church is virtually lost. And then secondly, even when the word church is used, it's been denigrated to where I think that if Christ or the

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Holy Apostles were to come, they would not even recognize it. Now let me unpack that.

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How do we recover what Joe has questioned or asked in his email to you?

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How do we recover the dignity, the beauty, the purity, the holistic view of the church?

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Well, before I answer that, let me just say, I think one of the things that we're seeing, especially in Western society today, is a great denigration of the church.

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And this, I think, came about because of the the influx, the importation of the

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German higher critical redactional criticism that came, started in Europe and came to our country in the middle 1800s and really impacted our country around the turn of the 20th century.

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And so many things evolved out of that. So where liberalism quickly came in, in the midst of most of the

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Protestant churches, even the liberal church, or even the Roman Catholic institution, had the problem with liberalism.

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They had to get rid of theologians, they had to get rid of various high -up church officials because of the influence of theological liberalism.

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And it so impacted the evangelical churches and the conservative

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Protestant denomination that they begin to lose this concept.

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And it can be seen today. I can drive through this whole area of the two parishes in which

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I live in Louisiana, and you'll see religious edifices, and there'll be signs out there, but they won't even have the name church.

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They may have Worship Center, or they may just have Riverside, River Park, Forest Green, whatever.

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And many have even taken the name church out. And this whole concept of a worship center has become very popular, very trendy.

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And it tells you right away that there has been a loss of the

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New Testament meaning of the word church, the very understanding of church.

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And then because of the, how should I put it, because there's been such a falling away from biblical, apostolic,

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Protestant, Reformation Christianity, that people don't even think that the church is necessary.

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And if they do, it's only there as they need it for marriages, for funerals, social gatherings, and so forth.

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Well, how do we recover what our brother Joe from Slovenia has asked?

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And I think the answer is a simple one. It's an answer to any other question that we might have about biblical and saving

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Christianity. How do we recover the gospel? How do we recover biblical churchmanship?

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How do we recover the Christian life? And the answer is very simple. You need to return back to the

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Holy Scriptures. You need to return back to the Bible. And so when you go to the

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Scriptures, one thing that you find in the New Testament Scriptures, the New Testament is a church book.

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And I shared with you on Tuesday, I was listening to this guy on the radio and he said, don't worry about the church.

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All you need is Jesus. You don't need to be concerned about the church. Church can't save you.

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Agreed. Church can't do this. Church can't do that. Only Jesus can save. And that sounds good.

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That sounds spiritual and pious. But it is not in harmony with the New Testament Scriptures.

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Out of the hundred and twelve times that the word ekklesia, which is translated church in the language of the

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New Testament, out of the hundred and twelve times that it is used, a hundred and six of those at least refer to visible bodies of baptized believers that are gathered for the purpose of the worship of the triune

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God, the edification of itself, and the propagation of Jesus Christ as the only

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Savior of sinners. It is not referring to some social social club.

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It is not referring to a host of other things. It is referring to a body called out, a particular body of believers who are baptized, following Christ, gathered together for the worship of the triune

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God, and so forth. Let me pause there and see if there's anything that you would want to add.

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No, I can't think of anything to add right now. I don't know if you've completed that thought, or if you want me to move on to another listener question.

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No, I think that we will never see a recovery, and I hear all the time people talking, or I hear it mentioned, oh we need a revival, we need a move of God's Spirit, and of course

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I believe those things to be true. But what we need is a return back to the

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Scriptures in all their fullness, and not pick and choose.

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I think we have this mentality when we come to the Holy Bible, I like this part,

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I don't like this part, I like that other part, but I don't like what's over there. And I'm preaching through the book of Romans right now, and I was just thinking this week in my study, preparing for my

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Sunday morning sermon, I thought, this book is so controversial. You'll hear people say, oh, the book of Romans is my favorite book in the

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Bible. And then when you come to certain parts, chapters one and two, or chapter six and seven, or nine, chapters nine and ten, oh

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I don't like that, I don't like that. And so we have this sense of autonomy, and we have this sense of freedom.

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I am my own master, I am the captain of my soul, I am the master of my faith.

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And we think we have the right to pick and choose what we like about the Bible and what we don't like.

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And what we like we will follow, what we don't like we're going to discard. Well that's one of the things that has weakened biblical

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Christianity in America today, and we need to return to a full -orbed biblical

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Christianity. One of the problems I face here in the Deep South, and I've said this to our people so many times, we are surrounded, people will talk about the

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South or certain parts of the South as being the Bible Belt, and I say we may think, we may pride ourselves in being the

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Bible Belt or having biblical Christianity, but what is the most common pervasive view of Christianity in the

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South is not a biblical Christianity, it's a cultural Christianity. And like I said earlier, if Christ or the

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Apostles were to come and visit our churches, they would not recognize them as the apostolic churches which they founded as they delivered the gospel of Jesus Christ and all of the

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Word of God to them. Well we do have another question from that same brother in Slovenia who's listening again today.

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Joe in Slovenia says, Dear brothers Chris and Earl, thank you for focusing on the

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Bride of Christ. Within the biblical concept of the local church being described as a fellowship, a body, a building, and other metaphors which describe unity, connectivity, accountability, mutual dependence, etc.,

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what should we say biblically about one who isn't an active, committed, faithful member of a local church?

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In what way, if any, would lack of biblical fellowship indicate that a professed believer is a false professor?

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Would the Apostles have understood and accepted the concept that a true believer can live indefinitely without intimate fellowship in a local church?

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And in fact, I'm gonna read one more question from another listener that is basically on the same theme.

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I don't want to steal her thunder either, but we have, let's see here, we have

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Catherine in Asante, Minnesota. She says, when you get to the point, she's asking me this personally, when you get to the point in the podcast where you ask, meaning

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Iron Trip and Zion Radio, when you ask for monetary contributions, you mention that not going to church is living in disobedience to God.

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I regularly attend church myself, but was not raised attending church, and none of the other members of my family attend church, but they have accepted

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Jesus as their Savior. I have never heard that not attending church is actual disobedience to God, and maybe that is because no one wants to say it outright, but would you be willing to explain how

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God conveyed that to us? I would greatly appreciate any information, and I really enjoy your program and have learned a lot.

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That's Catherine in Asante, Minnesota. So she is basically asking the same thing that Joe in Slovenia is asking, although Joe perhaps was more in detail about, should we view such a person who is not a member of a church as a true believer?

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And of course that can be a sticky question because we cannot read the hearts and minds of people, and there are many reasons why people may not be going to church.

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I'm not saying it's excusable, but it may be understandable if they have been burnt out by a cult or even a doctrinally biblical church that acted like an authoritarian cult, or maybe they were molested in some way by the pastor or a deacon or something.

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There could be a long list of reasons why a regenerate person is not going to a church or becoming a member of one, even though they are in sin by doing so.

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But if you could pick up on those questions, Pastor Earl. Well, Chris, both

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Joe, I think, and Catherine have raised a vital issue that needs to be addressed today.

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Now of course we would confess very clearly that the

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Church cannot save only Christ as the Savior and Christ as the Redeemer, but when you turn to the

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New Testament, and I'll confine myself to the New Testament primarily today, when you turn to the

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New Testament, as I said earlier, the New Testament is a church book.

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And when you find on the day of Pentecost, when Peter concludes his great sermon there, it says in verse 40, and with many other words, he bore witness and continued to exhort them, save yourself from this crooked generation.

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So those who received his word were first of all baptized, and there were added that day about 3 ,000 souls.

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And then when you go to verse 42, it says, and they devoted themselves to the

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Apostles' teaching and the fellowship, the koinonia, to the breaking of bread, which

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I believe is a liturgical term for the Lord's Supper, and the prayer. And then this section ends that they were praising

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God and having favor with all people, and the Lord added to their number. I'm reading from the

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ESV, the old King James says, and the Lord added to the Church, day by day, those who were being saved.

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And I think here you see an apostolic example. These believers just didn't simply accept

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Jesus, make a little decision, pray a prayer, and go their merry way.

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I've got my path into heaven, I have my fire insurance policy, and now

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I'm safe, I'm secure, I can do what I want. But there was something about the gospel that Peter preached, which is found throughout the book of Acts and the rest of the epistles, of course the

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New Testament, that bound them together. The ESV says they devoted themselves.

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First of all, there were four marks here. First mark is the Apostles' teaching, not just some cute little sermonette filled with anecdotes and jokes and stories.

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I remember I had a professor one time, a pastoral theology professor, and he was talking about preaching.

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He said, listen, if you want to catch people's attention, you need to come in with some witty little joke.

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And I thought, really? I thought, you mean that's what's going to catch people?

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Does faith come by telling of witty little jokes, or does faith come by hearing, and hearing by the

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Word of God? They devoted themselves. They continued steadfastly under the

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Apostles' teaching. The Word of God so delighted their souls and so filled their hearts, they wanted to sit under its authority, under its ministry, to be guided by it, directed by it, corrected by it, reproved by it, built up and edified by it.

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The second thing, and this goes to the point of what Joe asked, the second point that Luke brings out here is not only did they devote themselves to the

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Apostles' teaching, but to the fellowship, that koinonia, that shared life.

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It wasn't that they just popped into church very quickly on Sunday morning, and we have a group here in town that would like to style itself as simple.

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I don't want to say more. I don't mean to castigate people, but their service is 55 minutes, very early, usually in the morning, 55 minutes.

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Rock music played the first 20 minutes, little quips and funny things, and then 15 -minute little pep talk, and it's over so people can go home on Sundays and watch football or whatever they want to do.

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And they're gone. My neighbor goes and he says, man, I really like it. He says, I don't have to interact with anyone,

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I don't have to talk to anybody, I go in, I go out, and I said, yeah, you flipped your quarter to God, huh?

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And you're due. And he said, well, I wouldn't put it that way. I said, well, how would you put it?

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Because you're just in and out, you've sapped your conscience, but here in the book of Acts, we find that they're interacting one another, they're with one another, there's a fellowship, there's a shared life.

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They weep with those that weep, they rejoice with those that rejoice, they care for one another, they love one another, they pray for one another, they help one another.

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I could go on and on and on and on. And then they continued, they devoted themselves to the breaking of bread.

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That's not sharing meals in their homes, it's in the context of the Church. The Lord's Supper meant something to them.

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It wasn't just something that was tacked on the service once every three or four months or something like that, it was something that brought vitality, it brought

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Christ to their minds and remembrance. And then it says something else, which has virtually disappeared in evangelicalism today, they continued and devoted themselves to prayers.

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The Church prayed together. They believed that God was absolutely sovereign, and if God did not move and work, none of their methodology, nothing of their schemes or programs would get the work done.

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Nothing they could do apart from the ministry of the Word of God and the proclamation of the gospel would get the work done, and they knew that it needed to be watered with prayer.

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Well, now here is the example, and then when you go through the New Testament, you need to ask yourself this, if I am not a part of the

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Church, what part of the New Testament applies to me? Because the

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Book of Romans was written to the Church at Rome, 1st and 2nd Corinthians to the

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Church in Corinth, Galatians to the Churches in Galatia, Ephesians to the

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Church at Ephesus, Philippians to the Church at Philippi, Colossae to the

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Churches in the Lycus Valley, Colossae, Laodicea, and Aeropolis.

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And then the pastoral epistle, they were written to minister of the gospel,

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Timothy, Titus, and Philemon, who were ministers, pastors in Christ's churches.

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And then, I don't have time, I developed this in my book. I'm not trying to promote or sell my book, but I developed this whole line of thinking.

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But then when you come to the Book of Hebrews, which is a different style of writing, and I'll not go into the authorship of Hebrews, that's irrelevant to our discussion.

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But when you come to the Book of Hebrews, there's a very poignant passage in chapter 10, verse 25, where the writer of Hebrews says, and do not forsake the

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English translations have assembling of yourselves. The New Testament Greek is the synagoguing of yourselves, together, as is the manner of some.

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But exhort one another, and all the more so as you see the day approaching. What day? Well, of course, the day of the

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Lord, the day of Christ's return. And so here is a clear commandment for believers not to forsake the assembling of themselves together, and to say, and I know,

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I understand, brother, I've had to deal in pastoral counseling with people who've been abused, been sexually abused, mentally, emotionally abused, people that have been under authoritarian abuse, diotrephean abuse, and understand the great damage and the wickedness that has been done.

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But those things are really no excuse. Somewhere or another, it may be small, it may not in the eyes of the world be very significant, but it's the true

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Church of Jesus Christ where they can gather together for the purpose that the

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Church is called into existence. And I would like to, sometime in this program, talk about why the

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Church, why did God ordain the Church. But to conclude this question, these two questions,

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I'm not questioning someone's salvation in Christ, in one sense of the word.

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But in another sense, if you don't want to be with the people of God, if you don't want to worship God, if something else is more important to you than the worship of the triune

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God, and there are other people that are more important to you than humble followers and disciples and believers in Jesus Christ, I would say you need to do some very serious examination.

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Because if you're not a part of a visible Church of Jesus Christ, then 95 % of the

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New Testament has no relevance for you as a Christian today.

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To think that you can be a Christian and not be a part of Christ's Church is a serious and a grievous error on the part.

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And I don't mean to sound hard or harsh, but when

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I look at the New Testament, I can come to and arrive at no other conclusion.

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I think people who are out there need to seriously say, where is a

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Church of Jesus Christ that I can be a part of, and see God glorified in worship, see my own heart strengthened and built up in the faith, and joined together with the making known of Christ as the only

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Savior of sinners. Amen. And in fact, since you went to the book of Hebrews, wouldn't you say that this is one of the key passages that's very important in regard to what you were just saying about the necessity of all

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Christians to be members of a good, solid, Bible -believing and biblically faithful Church, is

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Hebrews chapter 13, verse 17, Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls.

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As those who will give an account, let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

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Obviously, if a person's a member of a church, there is no one keeping watch over their souls in an earthly sense anyway.

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Right. Well, that goes back to Joe's point again of the fellowship and also of accountability.

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Man, I wish I could tell you that as a pastor, I've arrived, I'm a super saint, I'm a spiritual giant, but there are many times

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I go to worship on the Lord's Day, and I'm down.

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I'm discouraged. I'm not encouraged.

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I've had a hectic week studying, preparing, going to hospitals. My morning this morning was disrupted because I had to be at the hospital.

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A widow in our church is undergoing surgery. She has no husband. Her children are not in this area.

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They're on the East Coast or the West Coast. She has no one, no family, but the church. My wife wouldn't pick her up.

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Other people would be coming in. I was over there. I walked in. As she is getting ready to go to the surgery, just before the surgeon comes in,

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I read the scriptures. I pray with her. There are tears in her eyes. Thank you, Pastor. I said, there are many people that love you.

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Well, my week is... I lost three hours, and my schedule is constantly disrupted, and I come to church, and I'm being looked at as the one who's going to deliver the message, the sermon, and leading the worship, though we have other elders in our church that assist in these matters.

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And I come, and I'm often down and discouraged, and I need my gas tank filled up, so to speak.

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And as I'm there, we stand up. We in our church begin our worship with the reading of Holy Scripture, and the

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Scripture begins to be read. Then we sing the praises of God. And, man, my soul is transported from this world, and the things that surround me, the things that keep me from running the race with patience.

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And I catch a fresh view of glory, and of heaven, and I see

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Christ seated at the Father's right hand. And then, believe it or not, I actually get blessed occasionally by my own preaching.

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And as the Word of God is ministered, all of a sudden, truth begins to take hold of my mind and filters down into my soul.

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And I realize that the things that we see are temporary, and the things that are not seen are eternal.

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And I'm strengthened. I'm fortified. And someone comes up, a sister in Christ comes up and says,

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Oh, Pastor, pray for me. A brother comes up. Oh, Pastor, thank you. Different ones, young people come up, older people come up.

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We share our lives together. We care for one another. We've worshipped

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God. We've received divine energy and strength from heaven. And all of a sudden, man, there's fellowship.

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And then there's accountability. We've dealt with some of that on Tuesday. Dr. Truman, Carl Truman, brought that up and initiated the discussion about church discipline.

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And I can tell you, so many times, people have said thank you that this church practices such, because it makes me aware that I can't just sneak around and do this or that.

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That, be sure my sins will find me out. And it helps me to walk circumspectly.

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There's accountability. There's help. There's strength. There's that, again, that word that Luke used, that koinonia, that shared life with one another, that helps us in so many difficult situations.

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This is so missed by those who do not either go or are a part of a visible

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Church of Jesus Christ. Yeah, and as I brought up to Dr. Truman, church discipline saved my life, perhaps even physically, because of my return to the abuse of alcohol after 18 years of sobriety.

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And if I had not been disciplined, I might have continued in that. And it may have led to my death.

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It was such a high level of alcohol consumption that I thank God for the discipline

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I received, because I know for a fact that the motivation was love and restoration. And I was completely restored and on very good terms with my former pastors.

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The only reason they're my former pastors is that I moved to Pennsylvania and they were in New York. And I even interviewed my pastor at that time,

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Mark Romoldi, after I was restored, of course, and my program was relaunched.

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I interviewed him not only on my own discipline that I underwent, but also just on the subject in general.

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And that may have been the first time that somebody who was under church discipline interviewed the person that disciplined them.

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I don't know if that's the first time, but it's the first time I ever heard of it. Well, these things are missing.

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For instance, we're part of a regional association here of 129 churches, and here not too long ago, one of the pastors of the big megachurches, and this is a trend that I think is faltering, where people can go in and they can go out, there's no accountability, they have their consciences thinking that, hey,

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I've gone to church, for those that at least know something about the

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New Testament scriptures, so it's a matter of being a part of a church. And so these megachurches have become the trend, but there's this big church here in our area.

37:58

The pastor was called in a two -year adulterous relationship, and the deacons, the associate pastors, none of them really knew what to do, and so they didn't say anything for three weeks to the church.

38:19

And the people began to say, where's our pastor? Where's our pastor? And finally, they were forced to make an announcement to the church, well, the pastor had some personal problems, and we had to let him go, and nothing was done.

38:34

And I contacted the denominational authorities in our area, and I said, hey, something needs to be done.

38:41

So our son goes to work, and he comes home from work, and he says, Dad, he says, boy, you ought to heard them at work.

38:47

They were talking about this fact that this pastor of this big church had committed adultery, and they were laughing.

38:54

They said, well, if he can get away with it, I guess we can too. And he said, I was getting a cup of coffee, and one of them said to me, he said, hey, isn't your dad a pastor of a church?

39:06

And our son said, yes. And he said, what would your church do if he did something like that? Our son said, well,

39:14

Dad, here's what I told him. I hope it was right. I said, what did you say? He said, I said, well, first of all, my father is a member of the church before he is a pastor of the church, and he is subject to the discipline of the church, just like every other member.

39:30

And if my dad committed adultery on my mother, I can tell you what would be done.

39:37

The church leaders would publicly censor me, censor my father, and publicly rebuke him for committing adultery, and call the church to go after him to restore him.

39:53

And if he did not repent, after a period of time, they would excommunicate him from the visible body of Christ.

40:01

In fact, can you pick up where you left off there? We have to go to our break. We actually are long overdue for our first break.

40:08

And pick up where you left off when we return, okay? I shall. Okay, and don't go away.

40:13

We'll be right back with Earl Blackburn. Tired of box store

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Iron Sharpens today. Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to a visit to the

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Pastor's Study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am

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.com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the

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Pastor's Study by calling in with your questions. Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

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Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the Pastor's Study, because everyone needs a pastor.

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Charles Hedden's Persian once said, Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read.

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Church and So Should You, which is the topic that we are addressing today with our guest

45:08

Earl Blackburn. This is part two of a discussion that we already began earlier in the week, and we wanted to further address it because the time that we were allotted did not us to develop this theme in its fullest sense or in an inadequate sense.

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So I invited Pastor Earl back onto the program, Pastor Earl Blackburn, who is the author of Jesus Loved the

45:38

Church and So Should You. And by the way, if you want to order this book, go to solid -ground -books .com,

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Before the break, as you know, Pastor Earl, we were talking about a mega church in your area where a pastor who was caught in an adulterous relationship, they kind of quietly tucked him away without making any disciplinary action upon this pastor, and you were discussing how your son's co -workers brought the situation up to them, or should

46:26

I say to him, at work, and he was responding to their question on how your church would react if you were caught in such a crime.

46:36

Yes. So he's there in the break room before work starts, and they ask him, what would our church do if I had been caught in an adulterous situation?

46:48

And he said he would be, my father would be publicly censured and rebuked, and the church would be called upon to restore him if he repented, he would be restored back to fellowship, he would not be restored to the ministry.

47:04

He would be restored back to the fellowship of the church, but more importantly, his repentance would restore him back into fellowship with God and my mother.

47:15

And if he did not, he would be excommunicated. And one guy said, dude, that's hard stuff.

47:24

And my son said, no, it's biblical. And when he said that, everyone scattered like cockroaches in a dark room when the light was on.

47:40

And yet this is so true, I mean, we're living in a lawless society, culture rules our nation, and sad to say, culture rules the church, or whatever is professed to be the church.

47:58

And there just needs to be a return back to New Testament, apostolic, historic

48:06

Christianity. So that is the end of that story.

48:13

Okay, we have another listener. We have John in Bangor, Maine, who asked the question,

48:20

I understand your point that a church leader has to be brought to the light of the congregation's attention if they have committed a sin such as this that would warrant their discipline and their removal from office.

48:37

But would that be the automatic response for just a regular member if that member was seeking restoration and demonstrated repentance?

48:49

Should such a sin of an ordinary member be made to the public's attention?

48:56

I'm sorry, brought to the public's attention? Well, Chris, I think what we need to understand is that being a member of a visible church of Jesus Christ, and I use the term visible rather than local because of the times in which we live, many people drive great distances to get to a good, solid,

49:20

Bible -centered church. And so it's a visible church as opposed to invisible, and it is a regional church rather than a universal church.

49:34

So when a person is a member of one of the bodies of Jesus Christ, whether they realize it or not, they're under formative discipline all the time.

49:47

We are disciplined by the Word of God every time we gather to worship, every time we gather to pray, every time we gather to fellowship.

49:57

We're governed and disciplined, shaped by the

50:02

Holy Scriptures. And so when we come to situations such as this,

50:08

I think there's a rule of thumb, so to speak, that should be applied. All of us as Christians, those of us who have believed upon Christ for the saving of our souls, we will be the first to confess we have not arrived.

50:25

There is much work to be done in us, though we have been freely justified and we've had imputed to our account the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ.

50:36

In Romans 7, Paul deals with the struggle that every Christian has. Every one of us struggle with sin that remains within us.

50:46

We're dead to sin, but sin is not dead in us. Paul would state that in Romans 6.

50:53

We have died to sin, but sin has not died in us. And we are all flawed and broken, and though we're saved, you know, it goes back to Martin Luther's famous saying of being simultaneously just and a sinner.

51:12

And we have been justified, but we're sinners. And so we all struggle with remaining sin.

51:21

For some it's one thing, for others it's another thing. Even fear and doubt and unbelief, we lightly dismiss them.

51:31

But in reality, unbelief is just as sinful as anything else. Matter of fact, I believe every sin to one degree or another flows out of the sin of unbelief.

51:42

We do this because we don't believe God really means what he says in the word. We commit adultery because we don't believe that God says it's wrong and that there is a recompense for it.

51:53

We steal because we think that we won't get caught and that God really doesn't mean you shall not steal.

51:59

I could go on and on and on and on. So all Christians struggle.

52:06

And the rule of thumb is this, whatever is public needs to be dealt with publicly.

52:12

Whatever is private needs to be dealt with privately. It should be dealt with to the extent that it is known.

52:22

If someone in anger says something to his neighbor or her friend or whomever, that person needs to make that right with that neighbor or friend or whomever.

52:38

But when something is public and I've had to deal with situations of men and former church

52:46

I pastored embezzled hundreds of thousands of dollars. Well, that becomes a public matter and had to deal with situations where people who were not pastors or elders or deacons have beaten their wives and been arrested for spouse abuse, things of that nature.

53:09

These things became public. And once they become public, they must be dealt with publicly, whether they're a pastor, an elder, a deacon, or a, and I hate to use this phrase, a regular church member.

53:21

All Christians are under the discipline of Christ under the discipline of the church.

53:27

And this type of public discipline, this type of public censure should only be done if the matter is public.

53:36

In fact, believe it or not, I have to go to another break because we delayed the first break. So now we have to go to our elongated break because Grace Life Radio 90 .1

53:46

FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us a 12 minute break between our two hours. So please be patient with us and take this time not only to write down information of our advertisers, because we want you to patronize them, obviously, but also write us questions for Pastor Earl Blackburn and send them to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

54:04

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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One sure way all Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers.

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Solid Rock Remodeling, bringing new life to your home. Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am

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I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man,

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I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, Pastor of Providence Baptist Church. We are a

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Reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

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We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.

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That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostles' priority, it must not be ours either.

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We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

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If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

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You can call us at 508 -528 -5750, that's 508 -528 -5750, or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our

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that's providencebaptistchurchma .org, or even on sermonaudio .com. Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Linbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Linbrook, Long Island, is teaching

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It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant. It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement.

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It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing. We're a diverse family of all ages, enthusiastically serving our

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Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402, that's 516 -599 -9402, or visit linbrookbaptist .org,

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that's linbrookbaptist .org. Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune into A Visit to the

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Pastors Study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am

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.com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the

01:02:44

Pastors Study by calling in with your questions. Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

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Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the Pastors Study, because everyone needs a pastor.

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Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

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01:05:06

Before we return to our discussion with Earl Blackburn on Jesus Loves the

01:05:13

Church and So Should You, I just have a couple of important announcements to make. The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is once again having their

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Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology, affectionately named the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology in tribute of James Montgomery Boyce and that very long series of conferences that he held year after year at 10th

01:05:39

Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. The conferences are no longer held right in Philadelphia anymore but they still keep that name in an affectionate way of paying tribute to the late

01:05:52

Dr. Boyce. But they are being held in two locations now. April 13th through the 15th the

01:05:59

Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology is being held at the First Christian Reform Church of Byron Center, Michigan.

01:06:06

And then April 27th through the 29th it will be held at Proclamation Presbyterian Church in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania, a lot closer to Philadelphia.

01:06:16

And the speakers include Daniel Aiken, Richard Gaffin, Daniel Hyde, Conrad M. Bayway, who

01:06:21

I think is probably the most powerful preacher alive on the planet Earth, Richard Phillips, Jonathan Master, David Murray, and Scott Oliphant.

01:06:30

If you'd like to register for either or both of those conferences, whether they be in Byron Center, Michigan or Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania, go to alliancenet .org,

01:06:40

alliancenet .org, click on events, then click on the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology. The theme this year is the spirit of the age and the age of the spirit.

01:06:52

Now also I come to you humbly with my tin cup to beg money, beg for money.

01:07:00

If you love this program, you don't want it to go away, if you look forward to it every day, if you are edified and blessed by the guests and topics, if you share the

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MP3s with others, will please help us remain on the air by going to ironsharpensironradio .com,

01:07:17

clicking on support, making out a check payable to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and mailing it to the address that you will see when you click support at ironsharpensironradio .com.

01:07:28

Never ever ever siphon money out of the money that you are accustomed to giving your church where you are a member.

01:07:36

And as our listener in Asante, Minnesota rightly said, that I daily try to remember to tell you, if you're not a member of a local

01:07:47

Bible -believing church, and unless you are looking for one prayerfully, you are living in disobedience to God, as we have even been saying during this conversation with Earl Blackburn.

01:07:58

So please rectify that situation. Seek out prayerfully a biblically sound

01:08:04

Bible -believing church and join it. In fact, if you need help, I am aware of lists of excellent biblically sound churches all over the world that I can bring to your attention if you are having a hard time finding one.

01:08:19

And please do not siphon money out of your regular giving to the local church where you are a member.

01:08:26

And never put your family in financial jeopardy either. Never forego paying a bill just to pay, or should

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I say, just to give to Ironsharpensironradio .com. But if you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to support your church and support your home and family, please consider helping us remain on the air with a donation.

01:08:46

In fact, if you can afford to, with regular donations. Some of you have been blowing me away by sending in checks twice a month, sometimes more than that.

01:08:56

And I just thank you from the bottom of my heart for your generosity and your gratitude and your graciousness and your encouragement.

01:09:06

I am tongue -tied in trying to thank you because it means so much to me. And if you would like to advertise with us and you are a pastor perhaps, perhaps you run a parachurch organization, you own a business, you're a professional person like a lawyer, a doctor, a dentist, a chiropractor, or you're just having a special event of some kind that you want to promote.

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As long as whatever it is you're doing is compatible with the theology we express here on Ironsharpensironradio .com,

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we would love to help you launch an ad campaign. You don't have to believe identically with me, you just have to be promoting something that is compatible with the theology we express here.

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Send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line and we would be happy to help you launch an ad campaign because we surely do need the advertising dollars from that.

01:09:59

That's also the email address where you can send a question to Pastor Earl Blackburn for today's discussion on Jesus Loves the

01:10:05

Church and So Should You and that email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

01:10:11

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. And please give us your first name, city and state and country of residence if you live outside the

01:10:18

USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. And Pastor Earl, before the break you were saying that public sins must be made public to the church when they are discovered, private sins should be kept in private, and I assume what you meant by the latter, if there are certain sins that an office bearer, even if they are private initially, have to be made known to the public, am

01:10:47

I right? Yes. I think that there are certain things, when you look at 1

01:10:54

Timothy 3, 1 -7 and Titus 1, 5 -9, we're given the qualifications for bishops or pastors or elders, and I think there are 19 qualifications there, and only one of them deals with gifts or giftedness, you must be able or apt to teach.

01:11:17

The rest deal with graces. And I think that there is a standard laid out in scripture for pastors, elders, that is high because pastors are the servants of the

01:11:34

Word of God. They are, in the right sense of the word, mouthpieces of the

01:11:39

Word of God. They are called to deliver the Word of God, and there's a standard that's high there.

01:11:47

And even if some men have, some men in the pastoral ministry, or in the eldership or whatever, have transgressed and disqualified themselves,

01:12:00

I think these need to be known. I mean, they need to be known in a discrete way, but they can't just be shuffled under the carpet.

01:12:11

And I think that one of the things, the world looks at the church and they see this being allowed by the church, pastors doing this, and nothing is said or done, they let love, as it's often put, cover a multitude of sins, and the world looks at that and laughs.

01:12:31

And I think that's one of the reasons among a number why the church has lost such influence in our society today.

01:12:40

But I think there's, I don't want to, unless you want to,

01:12:48

I don't want to spend all the time on simply the matter of church discipline. No, no, no, no,

01:12:53

I want you to go on where you believe we should discuss different aspects of the church.

01:12:58

Well, I think we need to see the great value of the collected, gathered body of believers.

01:13:07

Right. There's, I mean, first of all, there is the worship of the

01:13:14

Triune God, and we're living in a time where the doctrine of the

01:13:19

Trinity means very little, if anything, to most professed Christians.

01:13:25

Oh, it's a hard doctrine to understand, so we don't need to worry about it. But we do need to be worried about it.

01:13:31

The early church fathers, the early church creeds and confessions, start out very solidly that God is one, but he makes himself known in three persons.

01:13:45

And we come to worship him. And when we understand that Christ himself is building the church, the first reference, first mention of the word church in the

01:13:56

New Testament is that Jesus made a very sovereign and solemn pronouncement.

01:14:04

I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

01:14:10

We need to see the value of the church and the beauty of the church as being that which Christ himself has built, is building, and shall build.

01:14:20

And that when we gather as the people of God, what great blessing!

01:14:26

We are called into the presence of this Triune God to worship him, and to give unto him the honor and the glory that's due to his magnificent name, to receive blessings and strengths and through the means of grace, and we might or might not be able to get to that and this program, but we receive from the hand of God such great blessings.

01:14:53

We strengthen one another. I was just thinking a couple of weeks ago, I saw this young person in our church with such a downcast face, and he was walking along, and I went over.

01:15:07

I said, are you okay? And he said, no, I'm really struggling, pastor. And the next thing I know, a whole group of people, young people, other people, hey, what's going on?

01:15:19

And man, they were able to encourage him and build him up and strengthen him. These are the great blessings. When we come to the ordinances, or some prefer to use the term sacraments of the church, and I believe there are only two, baptism and the

01:15:33

Lord's Supper, what great blessings are found in the observance of these things.

01:15:40

It calls our minds from earth below to heaven above and the world to come. And then the great privilege of making

01:15:48

Christ known. So many young people today are angry and bitter, and we've got this cultural war going on, and they think, well, this government, this president stinks, and this government stinks, and that government stinks, and that president stinks.

01:16:06

And they think, because of the mindset, many of them are being taught by the news media, by the university, you know, the answer is government, a good government, a better government.

01:16:19

That's never been the answer. Look at the histories and empires of the world.

01:16:25

There's only one answer that will remedy the ills and the evil of this day, as in any other day before are the days ahead of us.

01:16:37

And it is the gospel, the saving gospel of Jesus Christ, that Christ died for our sins.

01:16:46

Not our mistakes, not our slip -ups, but our sins, our transgressions of God's holy law.

01:16:53

And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day, according to the scriptures. And the free justification that comes from that, and the benefit of knowing that you're accepted of God, and that you're his child, and that he has clothed you in a perfect righteousness that will guarantee you a safe entrance into the presence of God on the last day.

01:17:17

These benefits, and many more, are so missing.

01:17:23

We've got this prosperity mentality, you know, God doesn't want you sad, so you hear these sermons on how to deal with stress, and how to deal with broken marriages, and on and on and on and on and on.

01:17:38

And yet the scriptures do cover those things. Where does the Christian find his greatest, her greatest comfort?

01:17:47

It's not in some psychologist's couch. It's in the house of God, under the worship of God, and under the ministry of the word of God.

01:18:01

And when God's word washes across our minds, and washes across our souls, and brings heaven before our very eyes, all of a sudden we get a real perspective of what the world really is.

01:18:17

And it changes the way we think, and that's why Paul would write, and of course R .C. Sproul was so wonderfully notorious about this.

01:18:26

Be transformed. Be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

01:18:32

And as the word of God goes forth, it transforms the way we think, and it transforms the way we feel, and thus it has the outworking of transforming what we do, what we say, how we have relationships with one another in the world, how we have relationships with the government, how we have relationships with those over us, those around us, those beside us.

01:19:00

It affects, the gospel has an effect on every area of our lives if we properly apply it.

01:19:08

This is the great benefit of the church, and God is not so much interested in your happiness.

01:19:14

He's more interested in your holiness. And if you're wondering, I just think of a big, big megachurch in our area.

01:19:25

This so -called health and wealth gospel is propagated. You know, God doesn't want you poor. I think, man,

01:19:32

I'm not poor. I've been blessed with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places, and I have all the hidden treasures of wisdom and knowledge in Christ, and the riches that God wants to bestow upon us are not physical or corporeal blessings.

01:19:51

They're spiritual blessings that we already possess in Christ, and we need to feed off of those.

01:19:57

And that's why this anemic, deficient preaching today, and I could, you know,

01:20:03

Chris, brother, there's so many topics related to this that need to be addressed, and I appreciate all that you're doing.

01:20:10

You're doing, I think, a great job with your radio show and trying to, radio program, trying to address all of these things.

01:20:18

But there's a real poverty of preaching. There's a real poverty of knowing the

01:20:24

Word of God. Most people are so ignorant of the Holy Scriptures, and of course there's such ignorance of the

01:20:32

Church. What is the Christian life? And so on and so forth.

01:20:38

These things are all centered around the Gospel and ethics.

01:20:46

What is right? What is wrong? We have a new morality today. I dealt with that last Sunday in my sermon from Romans, beginning as an introduction to Romans chapter 7.

01:20:57

You know, the law of God is set aside. Well, we don't, the Ten Commandments, wasn't that in the Old Bible? You know, that has no relevance, they have no relevance for us today.

01:21:06

Well, you see it all around us. It's okay to lie. It's okay to steal. It's okay to, I can remember when the first Super Bowl was played, and there was a huge controversy over it because it was being played on Sunday.

01:21:21

And man, people boycotted it, and a Lutheran guy I know, he was so upset over this.

01:21:29

He boycotted the Super Bowl and all these other things. Well, we've lost, we've lost the biblical ethic.

01:21:38

I was sharing with our people this past week, I said, you know, I had, in the past month,

01:21:43

I've had three owners of businesses call me and talk with me about how to handle employees.

01:21:51

They'll spend an hour and 15 minutes, hour and a half, one. One of his employees was spending two hours on the phone.

01:22:00

The reason they knew, because their businesses had supplied phones to their employers, and they were able to track their phone records.

01:22:09

How do we deal with it? There's a loss of work ethic. Well, why is that? That's because there's been a loss of the gospel.

01:22:17

And Paul talks about the ethic of the gospel in Philippians 129, let your manner of life be according to the gospel.

01:22:25

These are all rich benefits that we have through the church. And the sad thing is that many professed

01:22:36

Christians have relegated the church to a secondary or tertiary position out there.

01:22:42

And they have lost the riches that are found in Christ and his gospel and his church.

01:22:52

Yes, that is indeed true, and tragically so. Let's see here.

01:22:58

We do have Ronald in eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who says, what kind of compromise should someone make if they are searching for a church that truly teaches accurately the doctrines of the

01:23:14

Bible, but they are lacking in the churches that are near them? For instance, it may be a church that is

01:23:21

Wesleyan or Arminian, or maybe a church that is charismatic or other things that would give the person reason to be cautious, but they cannot find a reformed or biblically solid church within a reasonable driving distance.

01:23:37

Should they move, or should they make a compromise and join a church that disagrees with them, even if some of the issues are very important?

01:23:48

Well, one of the things that has helped me in not only my Christian life, but my ministry, is the confession of faith of our church.

01:23:58

And as I stated earlier, that our church fully subscribes to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

01:24:06

And I think that there, in a book that I recently wrote, published by Christian Focus, I'm not trying to push the book, but I deal with...

01:24:16

That's fine, you can push the book if you want, that's quite all right. Okay. Fifty world -changing events in Christian history.

01:24:27

The one event I had is the apex of Protestant confessionalism, 1689.

01:24:33

And when the Baptists, our Baptist forefathers, produced this confession, which had been written earlier in 1677, but formally adopted in 1689, they were following the early church fathers.

01:24:50

They were following the historical creeds and confessions of the church.

01:24:57

And one of the things that is realized is that even the best of churches are flawed.

01:25:04

Just as there's no perfect Christian, there are no perfect churches. And even the best of churches have flaws to them, to one degree or another.

01:25:15

I mean, just as whoever is listening today, if you are honest with yourself before our triune

01:25:22

God, you realize there are great deficiencies in your own life. Well, when you get Christians who have deficiencies in their own lives and they're joined together in churches, you've got a church full of deficient

01:25:34

Christians. And you know, that's a difficult question to ask from this brother in...

01:25:42

Did you say Long Island? Yes, Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, yes. Yeah. You know, that's a difficult question.

01:25:49

For some, it might be easier. For some, it might be more difficult. You know,

01:25:55

I know that I, for myself, I don't think I could be a part of a church that wasn't confessional to one degree or another, because it anchors me all the way back to apostolic

01:26:08

Christianity. And this thing... I remember one time

01:26:13

I had these two ladies knock on my door, and they... I came and answered the door, and they said, we'd like to invite you to our church.

01:26:23

And I said, great. And they said, it's a wonderful church. We don't emphasize doctrine.

01:26:29

We just emphasize Jesus. I said, oh, really? And they said, yes. I said, well, do you believe in the

01:26:37

Virgin? Do you believe that Jesus was born of a Virgin? They said, yes. I said, well, that's the doctrine of the

01:26:43

Virgin. I said, do you believe that Jesus lived a sinless life?

01:26:48

Oh, yes. I said, well, that's the doctrine of the sinless humanity of Christ. I said, do you believe that Christ died on the cross for us?

01:26:55

Oh, yes. I said, well, that's the doctrine of substitutionary atonement. I just went through the... I said, so you do teach doctrine.

01:27:02

And they said, well, we never thought about it like that. You need...

01:27:09

So there are certain things that are non -negotiable. And for this brother that is in Suffolk County, I don't know the churches of that area.

01:27:20

Yeah, there are a number. I mean, Suffolk County, Long Island is definitely on the border of being a barren wasteland spiritually, but there are some very solid churches out in that area.

01:27:34

But I'm not sure if the listener is asking about himself. He may be asking for others that he knows personally.

01:27:41

I'm just guessing here. Yeah. Well, and I don't know that I could fully answer that question because,

01:27:48

I mean, there are certain non -negotiables. I mean, the doctrine of God, what do they believe about God?

01:27:56

I was just... Interesting enough, I was just reading, re -reading A .W. Poser's excellent little book on the knowledge of the holy.

01:28:06

And it was written for the lay person. And he says, you know, what you believe about God will affect how you live and not only what you believe, but how you live and so forth.

01:28:20

And, you know, the doctrine of the Trinity and the personal work of Christ, these things, salvation by grace alone and through faith alone and Christ alone, these are non -negotiable.

01:28:33

If you're out in the Alaskan wilderness, you're going to be hard -pressed to find a good church or certain other places.

01:28:42

In Japan, for instance, we had a woman from Japan who contacted me a number of years ago thanking me for a program

01:28:53

I did on the Moonies because she was once trapped in the Moonie cult with her husband.

01:28:58

And she, in fact, her marriage was arranged by Reverend Sung Yong Moon. And she was heartbroken because she could not find a

01:29:05

Bible -believing evangelical church because in Japan, about 1%, at the time she wrote that, she said less than 1 % of the population in Japan was evangelical

01:29:17

Christian. Well, for me personally, I couldn't speak for someone else.

01:29:23

I would have to find some church that held some semblance of a historical confession of faith.

01:29:31

And if I couldn't find one, I think I would move somewhere where there was one, or drive a good distance.

01:29:41

We have people that drive 45, 50, 55 minutes to come to our church, and they pass literally hundreds of churches coming to our church.

01:29:53

And the person would have to be persuaded in his or her own conscience before the inerrant and infallible

01:30:04

Word of God as to what is negotiable and what is not. But I think there's certain non -negotiables, such as the

01:30:12

Trinity and the personal work of Christ and all that's involved with that, and salvation by grace alone, through faith alone and Christ alone.

01:30:22

Those things cannot be negotiated, because I think if you deviate from them, you've deviated from biblical and apostolic

01:30:31

Christianity. And whosoever transgresses and abides not in the doctrine of Christ has not

01:30:37

God. But he that abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.

01:30:43

So that's a difficult question for me to answer for a lot of people.

01:30:49

I think they have to wrestle through that before God and His Word. Amen. And in fact, since you brought up A.

01:30:54

W. Tozer, I'm assuming by your answer that if a Reformed person did not have any

01:31:00

Reformed churches, confessionally Reformed Calvinistic churches, within any kind of reasonable driving distance from them, that if A.

01:31:08

W. Tozer was alive, you would recommend that they go to the church where he pastored, even though he was not

01:31:15

Reformed and was not even a cessationist? Well, just in picking it up and rereading it again, his book

01:31:26

Knowledge of the Holy, I thought, this man is not Reformed, actually, as part of the Christian Missionary Alliance denomination.

01:31:34

And I thought, he has a better grasp of the God of Scripture than some of these modern

01:31:40

Reformed guys that are wanting to change all sorts of ideas and concepts about God.

01:31:46

I thought, here is a man who was a trained theologian and pastor, and though he wasn't

01:31:54

Reformed, his view of God is a glorious view of God. And of course, that makes him just so Christocentric in so many areas.

01:32:05

I wouldn't agree with him on every little thing, especially toward the end of the book. The book itself is just very refreshing in light of some of the controversies that are going on today about the

01:32:17

Trinity and about the essence and being of God and so forth that are out there, which are for another show and people more skilled in answering the questions.

01:32:33

But I think that a confessional Christianity, an Anglican—I can't remember his name right off the top of my head—wrote an excellent little article,

01:32:45

Why You Should Have a Confession, to say. And I think we've drifted from that.

01:32:52

We've wanted to become simplistic, and we would claim to be Biblical. There's a

01:32:58

Biblicism out there that wrongly handles the Word of God. And it's just weakened

01:33:04

Christianity all over the place. That's why Christianity is more of the brunt of a joke than it is something of reverence and awe and respect in Western civilization.

01:33:16

We have lost a glorious and grand view of God, and a lofty concept of God, in his great salvation, and his great and almighty conquering grace, and the power of the

01:33:27

Gospel, and the holiness that flows from a radically saving encounter with Christ in the

01:33:36

Gospel through repentance and faith. So I can't answer that question.

01:33:45

If I was in a situation like that, and there were no churches that held to my confessional faith,

01:33:53

I would sit under A. W. Tozer's ministry and thank God for it. Amen.

01:33:58

We have to go to our final break right now. It's going to be very brief. If you want to ask a question of Earl Blackburn, please send it in now because we are rapidly running out of time.

01:34:07

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away.

01:34:14

We'll be right back, God willing, right after these messages with more of Earl Blackburn. And Jesus loves the church, and so should you.

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01:39:02

Jesus Loves the Church and So Should You. If you have any intention of sending in a question today, do so now or forever hold your peace because we're running out of time rapidly.

01:39:12

Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

01:39:17

And Pastor Earl, I typically only read the first name of a listener who's sending in a question, but when

01:39:24

I receive a question from a pastor that I am aware is pastoring a very solid, biblically sound church,

01:39:32

I like to give that pastor a plug. And this brother is someone I know that you know,

01:39:39

Pastor Richard Barcelos of Grace Reformed Baptist Church in Palmdale, California, says, in terms of retrieving a strong ecclesiology, what place does ministerial training play?

01:39:52

And what kind of training is crucial for what you are advocating? Well, I think,

01:39:59

I know, I know Dr. Barcelos. I've had to bail him out of jail. See, that's what he gets.

01:40:15

That's what he gets for sending in a question. He is a dear friend and a beloved brother.

01:40:22

And in case you don't know, listeners, that was tongue -in -cheek. I think that a solid theological education is indispensable for a recovery of a biblical view of the

01:40:45

Church and biblical churchmanship. You know, one of the things that is lacking today, we've got men in the pulpit, and Al Mohler and an excellent,

01:40:56

Dr. Al Mohler, president of Southern Seminary, wrote an excellent book called, He Is Not Silent, Thoughts on Preaching in Modern Times.

01:41:07

And we have people, we have people that, they're embarrassed about the

01:41:13

Word of God. They don't want to preach it, and they don't want to teach it. And I remember when I started my series of sermons, expositional sermons on the book of Romans, a pastor nearby asked me, we were talking what we're preaching on and so forth, how pastors do, and I told him

01:41:29

I was beginning a book of Romans, and he said, oh, I would never preach on the book of Romans. I said, why is that?

01:41:34

And he said, because I drive away over half of my church. And I thought, well, if that would drive them away, they need to be driven away.

01:41:43

We've got men that don't know the original language, men that do not know biblical and dogmatic and systematic theology.

01:41:52

They do not know church history. They do not have proper pastoral theology.

01:42:01

And one of the things that I'm so thankful for is that the group of churches that I gladly associate with, the

01:42:11

Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America, are launching our own standalone seminary, the

01:42:19

Institute of Reformed Baptist Studies Theological Seminary, which will begin this

01:42:26

August, this September. Wonderful, wonderful faculty.

01:42:31

It's going to be unique among seminaries. It's not there to train church administrators. It's not there to train music ministers, music directors, church secretaries, on and on.

01:42:44

It's there to train men to be servants of the Word of God, to know the original languages of the

01:42:54

Old and New Testament, to know good, solid biblical doctrine and theology.

01:43:02

And I think that we have today, there's such a poverty across our country of men.

01:43:11

You know, I said the doctorate degree is so you can get one for a couple thousand dollars, and everybody is a doctor this or doctor that and so on and so forth.

01:43:24

But to have a real PhD or a DPhil is something that is prized, and it shows you that someone has studied and given himself to a diligent study of the

01:43:39

Holy Scriptures to be a capable and faithful minister of the

01:43:44

Word of God. Our seminaries likewise. I mean, as the seminaries go, usually the churches go.

01:43:53

And when you look at the spiritual state and condition of the churches in America today, well, you have to sit back in one route to the poor theological training that they've had.

01:44:08

And I think of one of my fellow pastors here, and graduated from a very prestigious seminary with a

01:44:17

Master of Divinity, had a Hebrew class, and the professor said, well, you're not going to ever use this.

01:44:25

He said, if you do the best you can and whatever you do that is the best you can do, you'll get a passing grade.

01:44:32

And he said, well, you know, that just took away all the incentive to learn the

01:44:38

Old Testament Hebrew. And I think that we need to have a hearty and robust theological education so that men might be fortified and they might be strengthened, as we say where I'm from back in the mountains of North Carolina, where they can get a backbone tougher than a saw lock to stand and proclaim the whole counsel of God.

01:45:05

And the churches today of all sorts of denominational stripes are filled with men, and sad to say, and this may get me in trouble, or you in trouble, but I stand by it,

01:45:18

God didn't call women to preach. And the churches today are filled with men and women.

01:45:24

They're more experience -oriented than they are Bible -oriented and theology -oriented.

01:45:31

And we need to have a good, solid theological foundation for our ministers and pastors in our churches, so that they might properly, to use

01:45:44

Paul's language, rightly divide the word of truth and preach the whole counsel of God.

01:45:50

As he said to the elders of Ephesus, I have not shunned, I've not held back to declare unto you the whole counsel of God.

01:46:00

And many today are ashamed, they're afraid, they think, oh, if I preach that, people will get mad and leave.

01:46:07

Well, they need to understand that a preacher greater than any of us, when he preached in John chapter six, it says when he finished, he said, no man can come unto me except the

01:46:19

Father which sent me draw him. And it says, and from that point on, many of his disciples turned and did not follow him any longer.

01:46:31

Well, if people turn away from us, one greater than us has had the same experience.

01:46:37

And we need to be faithful. We're not here to please people, we're here to glorify God. And that kind of segues into one of the purposes of the

01:46:48

Church. You know, the main purpose, the overarching purpose of the Church is to glorify

01:46:57

God, to declare unto this fallen, spiritually dead and depraved world that is bound in darkness and sitting in the shadow of death, the glory of this magnificent God as he is revealed in the face of Jesus Christ.

01:47:15

And when I think of what Paul says there in Corinthians, he's talking about when you come to worship, let it be done in a known language so that when the unbeliever, the heathen, the pagan, the one who has not believed upon Christ, comes into your assembly and he leaves, because things are done so decently and in order, he will say as he leaves, surely

01:47:39

God is in this place. And many churches today are so oriented, they want people to feel good, they want them to feel good about themselves, better about themselves.

01:47:51

Well, when you're sitting under the whole counsel of God, you may not feel better about yourself after you've left the worship, at the house of God.

01:47:59

You may be smitten in your own soul and conscience, or you may be rejoicing. There are many things that can happen, but you will have at least entered into the presence of God in the collective worship.

01:48:12

And men who have been internally called by Christ through his

01:48:18

Holy Spirit to be ministers of the Word of God, to be servants of the Word of God, pastors in Christ's churches, need to be men that are specially and specifically trained in the

01:48:32

Holy Scriptures so that they might be bold in this world and declare all that God has revealed to us in the self -revelation of himself found in the

01:48:44

Holy Scriptures. Amen. Dr. Barcellas, thank you for that question, and I will bail you out of jail the next time you get in.

01:48:57

And I want to let our listeners know that if you do live in Palmdale, California, or intend to visit there, or you have loved ones there or friends, you can find out more about the

01:49:10

Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Palmdale, California by going to Facebook and looking up that church,

01:49:16

Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Palmdale, California. And I thought I might as well also plug the fact that Dr.

01:49:23

Richard Barcellas is the visiting professor of New Testament studies at Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary, and that website is cbtseminary .org.

01:49:44

I'm going blind, so I'm pretty sure that's the correct website. CBT Seminary, standing for Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary .org.

01:49:54

And then providentially, and this is not planned, ladies and gentlemen, but we also now have a question from Dr.

01:50:01

James M. Renahan, who is the president of the newly forming seminary that you just mentioned,

01:50:09

Pastor Blackburn, IRBS Theological Seminary, which is going to have its home very shortly in Texas.

01:50:17

And in fact, I have been invited to the inauguration events, their first convocation on September 11th, and they plan to combine that event with the inauguration of President James Renahan, and they want me to have a live broadcast from there on site, which

01:50:38

I hope I can attend, because I would really love to do that, and I'm going to make every effort to be there,

01:50:43

God willing. But Dr. Renahan says, Pastor Earl, thank you for defending the

01:50:48

Church. Would you agree that the leadership of the Church should be well trained in doctrine and practice, and if so, what do you recommend for training?

01:50:57

That's a very similar question that we just heard before from Richard Barcellas. Well, I think also that Dr.

01:51:06

Barcellas is going to be the Professor of New Testament Studies at the

01:51:12

IRBS Theological Seminary, which will be located in the Mansfield, Dallas -Fort

01:51:18

Worth area of Texas. Read the question again,

01:51:25

I want to make sure, because it is similar to that of Dr. Barcellas, but it's different. He says,

01:51:30

Dear Pastor Earl, thank you for defending the Church. Would you agree that the leadership of the

01:51:35

Church should be well trained in doctrine and practice, and if you do agree, what do you recommend for training?

01:51:45

Yes, I wholeheartedly, absolutely agree, and I want to be careful here, because I know that they're attenuating circumstances with different ones, but I think that we cannot depart from the master -disciple methodology that Jesus taught, and I think as much as possible, there's a place for online study.

01:52:18

That I'm not going to question, but I think the best is to be in a classroom with a godly professor, and I think professors need to have pastoral experience, not just trained in the ivory towers of the growth of academia, which they need, and that is indispensable, but they need to have pastoral training, because we're not just training theologians, we're training pastor theologians, and they need to have that classroom experience where they can interact, where they can engage their professors, they can ask questions, the professors can respond back to them, and face all the nuances that are out there today.

01:53:06

I think that type of dynamic setting is indispensable to a good, solid, robust, hardy, full -orbed ministerial preparation, and if you don't have it, you know,

01:53:21

I look back over my theological training, and oh, there's so many deficiencies.

01:53:28

If I could write my life over, I would do things a lot differently, but in God's providence,

01:53:33

I've had to go the way that I've gone. But if I was the young man and called of Christ, the first thing

01:53:41

I would do, I would already have my application in for the

01:53:46

RBS Theological Seminary that will be opening the fall of this year.

01:53:52

And that website is irbsseminary .org, make sure you put two S's in there, irbsseminary .org.

01:54:01

Well, Pastor Earl, I want you to take the next four minutes to summarize what you most want etched on the hearts and minds of our listeners before the program is over today.

01:54:11

Well, thank you, Chris, for having me on. We've only touched the hem of the garment regarding biblical churchmanship.

01:54:20

The subtitle of this book is not just...the title is, Jesus Loves the

01:54:25

Church and So Should You, subtitle, Studies in Biblical Churchmanship. And we haven't even come close to discussing really a tenth of all that is here, and I know the publisher called me and said to remind you that if anyone calls in, if you order bundles of these books, there'll be a great discount.

01:54:48

If you're a seminarian, there'll be a great discount. The thing that I would...I

01:54:54

think that has most formed and shaped me is what

01:55:01

Paul says in 2 Corinthians chapter 4, verses 6 and 7, that the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

01:55:14

And the thing that the Church exists for is to make known the magnificence and glory and splendor of the

01:55:21

God of the Scriptures, His power, His might, His grace, His love, the full forgiveness, the acceptance, the joy, the blessedness of what

01:55:32

Jesus said, this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, in Jesus Christ, whom you have sent, to know the eternal life that only

01:55:42

God Himself can bestow. And its focus, its center, is not in the individual

01:55:49

Christian, it is in the collective body. The Church, the visible Church of Jesus Christ, is central to all the redemptive purposes of God in Christ Jesus.

01:55:59

And the one thing that I would want the people to know is to know the

01:56:04

God of the Scriptures, and to know His glory, His holiness, His magnificence.

01:56:11

And it can only be revealed in the Word of God through the face of Jesus Christ.

01:56:17

The Church is not for itself, it's not about itself. It exists for the glory of God.

01:56:23

It exists to make known the saving truth of Jesus Christ. And thus, from that, to benefit the world, to enrich the world, and to shape and change the world.

01:56:36

That is my burden, that is my desire and my longing. Not to just live long range or Christianity, but to be a part of that magnificent body of Christ.

01:56:49

The body of those that are, will one day be gathered around the throne of God, and Jesus Himself will say to the

01:56:58

Father, Here am I and the children you have given me, I have lost none. What a great joy and honor it is to be a part of that magnificent body.

01:57:10

When this passing world is done, it won't matter where you were born, or what language you speak, or what accomplishments or achievements you've gained in life.

01:57:21

What will matter is if you are savingly in Christ, and united to Him through faith.

01:57:29

And that will be all that matters on that last and great and notable day of the

01:57:34

Lord. Amen. Well, I want to make sure that our listeners have all of the contact information they will need for you,

01:57:43

Pastor Earl. First of all, the website for Heritage Baptist Church of Shreveport, Louisiana, once again, is hbcshreveport .com.

01:57:54

And that's H -B -C for Heritage Baptist Church, Shreveport, S -H -R -E -V as in victory,

01:58:01

E -P as in Peter, O -R -T, dot com, hbcshreveport .com.

01:58:08

Chris, may I make one other, to plug this, after each chapter, there are a series of discussion questions.

01:58:17

And I've heard from the publisher that churches as far away as India have ordered mass quantities of these.

01:58:27

And they've used them in their Sunday school classes, and small groups, all sorts of settings.

01:58:33

And they go through each chapter, and there's a series of questions there that will help instruct people on biblical churchmanship, and what it is to be a

01:58:42

Christian and to be a churchman or a churchwoman. Great.

01:58:50

And that website is solid -ground -books .com, solid -ground -books .com.

01:58:57

And look up Jesus Loves the Church and So Should You by Earl Blackburn.

01:59:03

And then let's not forget the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches of America.

01:59:08

Their website is arbca .com, a -r -b -c -a .com.

01:59:14

And the seminary that we just mentioned, the IRBS Theological Seminary, that website is irbsseminary .org,

01:59:24

irbsseminary .org. I want to thank you so much, Pastor Earl. If you could wait on line here so I can invite you back on the program soon.

01:59:34

I want you all to have a blessed and safe weekend and Lord's Day. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

01:59:43

Savior than you are a sinner. We look forward to hearing from you and your questions next week on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.