October 8, 2019 Show with Dr. Tony Costa and Chris Date Debating “Eternal Conscious Punishment vs. Conditional Immortality” (Part 1)

Debate Introduction and the Meaning of the Theme

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania. It's iron sharpens iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this eighth day of October 2019 and I'm thrilled to have another debate being conducted here on iron sharpens iron radio.

Anybody who knows me knows that I love Arranging live public moderated debates not only between those that are defenders of the Christian faith and Adherence to the true gospel against those that are in false religions or who are apostates.

But also between brothers in Christ who disagree on Areas in-house debates if you will collegiate debates Where an area may be very important over which they disagree, but not serious enough to Cause them to label their opponent a non-believer.

So today we have such a debate we have a debate between two brothers in Christ and The theme is going to be eternal conscious punishment versus conditional immortality. This is a two-day debate. It begins today and ends tomorrow at 6 p .m. Eastern Time Tuesday and Wednesday, October 8th and 9th and Those that are involved in this debate are first of all, dr Tony Costa who is an who is an advocate of eternal conscious punishment?

He is professor of apologetics in Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary in Toronto, Canada. He's also an author and a dear friend who has been involved in many speaking Engagements that I have arranged and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio.

Dr. Tony Costa.

It's a great pleasure to be back with you again, Chris.

Amen, and we have also on the program Who is a conditional immortality advocate? His name is Chris date. He is the host of the the apologetics podcast and co-editor of rethinking hell and a consuming passion.

He and I have been wanting to bring this debate to fruition for years. And finally it has come fallen into place and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to iron trip and Zion radio Chris date.

The honor and privilege is all mine. Thank you so much for having me Chris and.

The the actual theme the subtitle if you will of the main heading the actual theme of our debate today is is a mortality only given to the saved and Defending that position or affirming it is Chris state and Opposing it is dr. Tony Costa and right now Chris state is going to begin with his opening remarks and.

Conditional Immortality and the Resurrection Body

If you will begin now in asking the question is immortality only given to the saved. We are not asking about the immortality of the soul in our debate today. The real dividing line between both sides is the immortality of the resurrection body.

You see both sides affirm with scripture that one day everyone who has died will be raised from the dead to be judged and that Those who are by faith covered in the blood of Christ will be given immortal bodies and will live Embodied forever in the presence of God and in the community of his people.

But when it comes to what sorts of bodies will be given to the risen lost. That is where the doctrines of eternal torment and conditional immortality part ways. According to eternal torment believers throughout church history.

The resurrected lost will also be given immortal bodies and will live embodied forever. I'll be it in hell. This goes as far back as around 175 AD to the church father Tatian who said we to whom it now easily happens to die.

Afterwards received the immortal with enjoyment or the painful with immortality. A couple of centuries later Augustine's ality be in the bodies of the damned Jonathan Edwards John Gill George and Wayne Grudem.

They all torment believers say the resurrected bodies of the lost will be made immortal and that the risen lost will live forever in hell. But before Augustine popularized this view the church fathers Clement of Rome and Ignatius of Antioch writing around 100 AD.

Along with Arnobius Uranus and Athanasius after them all indicate that immortality is a gift received by those who rise in Christ. As important as these Chris and I are all Protestants and we believe the Bible is our final authority.

I also believe the Bible is inerrant and infallible as I think that dr. Costa and Chris do as well. So the question that we really need to ask today is whose resurrection bodies does the Bible say will be?

Immortal and capable of living forever. The doctrine of eternal torment says that everybody's will be including those of the lost. I will here argue that the Bible indicates instead that only the resurrected bodies of the saved will be made immortal.

This truth is taught in Scripture literally from cover to cover at one end in After Adam and Eve have three of life and eat and live forever the Garden of Eden. The tree of life the bodies of human beings are mortal and will certainly eventually die.

And the tree of life reappears at the other end of Scripture. Like I said, it's from cover in Revelation 22 where only the saved have access to its fruit. Symbolizing that only they will be immortal and that it will be received only by some God Paul says will render to each one according to his works to those who by patience in well-doing seek eternal life.

So immortality must be sought and will be received. But only by some the gospel Timothy 110 Christ brought life and immortality to light. It largely veiled in the old unveiled brought to Corinthians 15.

He says in verses 42 to 44 with the resurrection of the dead. What is is imperishable only about believers? 23 of first Corinthians 15 the lush and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

See resurrection immortality is meant for the purpose of making believers fit to inherit the kingdom of God 53 when we are raised from the dead we shall be changed for this perishable body must put on the imperishable and this mortal body must put on immortality as Paul says in 2nd Corinthians 5 for while we are still in this tent.

That is this present mortal body. We groan being burdened not that we would be Unclothed but that we would be further clothed. This is why Paul says in Romans 6 23 to death and view here for at least two reasons.

First in the very next of her he lives he is released from the law of marriage 23 is essentially the same thing Paul had said a chapter earlier in Romans 5 14 and 17. Sin is not counted where there is no law yet death reigned from Adam to Moses.

Because of one's man's one man's trespass death reigned through that one man and much more of those who receive the abundance of grace and The free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

You see Paul is saying that even though there was no law between Adam and Moses The fact that everyone died is proof that they sinned in Adam. So every descendant of Adam dies, but the free gift of eternal life is available through faith in Jesus Christ.

This is Paul's consistent message resurrection immortality and eternal life for only the risen saved. And he didn't come up with this on his own in John 5 28 and 29 Jesus says. And as will hear his voice and come out those who have done good to the resurrection of life and Those who have done evil to the resurrection of the evil ones must not ultimately result in life 20 35 to 36 those who are considered worthy to attain to that age into the resurrected angels and our sons are Lord then.

Those so counted worthy will be unable to die again. Implying that the unworthy that is the unsaved will be able to die again. In fact, this is the message of the most famous verse in the Bible in John 3 16.

Jesus loved the world that he gave his only son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. So eternal life is given only to those who believe in Jesus and in the two verses that immediately precede this one Jesus likens himself to the bronze serpent that Moses had made back in numbers 21 9.

Anyone who had been fatally bitten by venomous snakes was to look at that bronze serpent and in so doing they would live. Jesus is saying implement the exegetical case perfectly if not infinitely holy to tolerate evil forever.

But consider that the doctrine of eternal torment says. God will not only tolerate evil forever. He will ensure and secure the everlasting existence of evil by making immortal those who go on doing it in hell.

My view is that one day God will eradicate all evil from the cause not be made immortal when they are raised to be judged. They will remain able to die and they will die never to live. Let me close by reminding you that the question about the immortality of the future Resurrection bodies of the unsaved bodies of the unsaved will be every bit as immortal and imperishable.

Therefore of living embodied forever scripture and revelation to the only the resurrection bodies of the saved will be made Immortal and imperishable. These are the lost must therefore remain mortal and perishable and they will die and the cosmos will be perfect.

Thank You Chris. And now dr. Tony Costa Who opposes the thesis that only the saved are given Immortality, he will now have 10 minutes as well for an opening statement. Dr. Costa.

God’s Unique Immortality and the Derived Life of Creatures

The Holy Spirit and God. God is the only being without beginning without end. He's also the only sovereign. Have he derived regal authority? He's also called the Lord in Romans 13 that all authority comes from God and that rulers rule God we're told in 1st Timothy 616 dwells in under culture never seen him were told and no can they see him.

But certainly this does not mean that no one will ever survive because believers will see God. Jesus said they'll see God so that they will be God. So 1st Timothy 615 to 16 speaks of God is unique. There's no one like him Who possesses these incommunicable attributes that are not shared by his creatures now.

We must unequivocally understanding of the immortality of the soul. Many have mistaken Plato's new apparently immortal Christians never have and do not believe that but that's in the spheres of not because we are inherently immortal.

But because the 28th Apostle Paul points out of course does not use the phrase the immortality of the soul continues to exist. Into eternity is also created a host of heavenly things such as the angels elected not only humans.

But also elected angels. 1st Timothy 521 in the presence of God and Christ Jesus and of the elect angels. I charge you to keep these rules without Christ's pre-judging doing nothing from partiality. These elect angels obviously are not human.

That's the thing but they do implicitly possess immortality as they do not die, but they're implied. Immortality again is not inherent in them as part of their nature or rather is derived graciously from God who sustains them.

Angels are not saved or redeemed being this. Christ did not die for angels as he who stooped only died for the seed of Abraham. For humans those angels who are not saved directed humans cannot die anymore.

Which means that doesn't that's immortality because he says they're equal to angels and so in Luke 20 34 to 36. The sons of this age Mary and are given in marriage. But those who are considered worthy to obtain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead.

Neither Mary nor given in marriage. They cannot die anymore. Because they are equal to angels and our sons of God being sons of the resurrection. Of course, the angels are not immortal as God is immortal.

That would be a qualification contingent beings and their ongoing existence is derived from God. The word of the word mo can be used to describe their continued existence not their beginninglessness. But they're beginning and there's the sustenance by the Creator.

The word immortal is never used of angels in the case of humans. We're not inherently immortal things that always depend on God. Humans of the image of God I believe continue to accept your death either in the presence of God or away from his presence.

Many passages in Scripture on the steps and this has been the view of the church who denied. It's like origin who denied eternal punishment lapsed into universalism while others like Arnobius Who died in 330 a .d. Church, which in effect was equivocation?

He misunderstood obvious also incidentally lapsed into heresy saying that Christ is not equal to the Father. Now it's important to note that Christ as the federal head of believers Demonstrated that reality of life after death even dead in Acts 7 59 to 60 as the God-man Jesus Christ.

Listen to nature's spirit and body. Others believe that in the intermediate period between Christ's death and resurrection He will clear his victory for the 220 which of course is a disputed passage. And it is also a path that illustrated the reality of existence on to a 22 and also in John 10 18 17 and 18 we claim to have the authority to lay down his life and take it up again.

But the word resurrection itself is used in the context of believers for strength in 15 15 and Verses about the fact that I affirmed this as well that the word athanasia and a farce. They are applied here.

So that is not to say that the immortality of the angelic beings in the sense that they are Derived beings who continue to exist by the grace of God and that human beings continue that does not mean that this necessarily implies That the souls of people died with their bodies.

And so while the word immortality is used of Christian believers It does refer whenever it's used to the resurrection body and I definitely grant that mortality Mortality will put on immortality the rock will put on Impossibility and our bodies are to be conformed and changed like that.

In fact, it's correct. Dr. Tony costly. You're out of time.

Yes. Okay.

Opening Rebuttals on Conditional Immortality and Eternal Conscious Punishment

Well, we're going to our first commercial break. We will when we return we will have both of our debaters. Give rebuttals to those opening statements that you just heard. They will be seven minutes a piece and then we're going to go to our midway break and And continue with the debate after that with the cross examination sessions, which are always my favorite.

I don't think you that you can have a proper debate without cross examinations. Although some have tried to insist that we have debates in the past without cross examinations I always refuse those requests because those are I think the most fascinating and most important aspect of the debates, but we're going to our initial break right now and Don't go away.

God willing. We're gonna be back after these messages from our sponsors with more of the debate between Chris date and Tony Costa. When iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in today is day one of a two-day debate between dr Tony Costa professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary and Chris date who is host of the Theopologetics podcast and co-editor of Rethinking hell and a consuming passion.

The theme of the debate is eternal conscious punishment versus conditional Immortality. Dr. Tony Costa is an advocate of eternal conscious punishment and Chris date is an advocate of conditional Immortality.

This first day of the debate Involves a sub theme under that main heading is Immortality only given to the saved where our guest Chris date is defending that position that Immortality is only given to the saved and dr Tony Costa is opposing that thesis.

Now it is time for our rebuttal session where each debater will have seven minutes to rebuttal to rebut. I should say the opening statements that were given before the station break and.

We begin with Chris date with your seven-minute rebuttal clarify one thing before I get started in my rebuttal proper but I just wanted to explain that when I said we're debating the Immortality of the resurrection body and not the immortality that human beings don't if human beings are conscious in death while awaiting Resurrection including Jesus between his death and resurrection.

It in no way follows from that that the resurrection bodies of the lost will be made immortal. That's the point I was making by emphasizing that our debate today is about the resurrection bodies Torment maintained might be more relevant to our discussion today.

And in fact, we'd be having a very different discussion. But no the doctrine of eternal torment maintains that the lost will be resurrected and that their bodies will be made immortal and incorruptible.

Clarification out of the way, it seems to me and I Really enjoyed my Getting to know dr. And I do count him as a friend and as a dear brother in Christ way about me and so in what about this but so Far as I can tell the large majority of dr Costas opening really didn't make a case at all.

I'm that immortality is given only to the saved. So far as I can tell the following is God is innately in Creatures from receiving a derived immortally agree and you the listeners will know that I didn't mention first in arguing.

We're not talking. We're not debating about Innate immortality. We're talking about whether immortality will be given to the saved only as I affirm or to the resurrected lost as well. As luckily he argued that Christian traditionalists throughout history that is believers in eternal torment Don't believe in the platonic doctrine of the innate immortality of the soul or in the innate immortality of angels it's all the right an innate immortality arguing that Whereas the doctrine of eternal torment says that immortality will be given to the resurrected bodies of the lost and I Am NOT disputing that but even if that's true Clement of Rome and Ignatius of Antioch and even Athanasius the Great Athanasius Contramundum at Doxy between the councils of Nicaea and Constantinople in the fourth century.

He all of these people Taught that immortality is something that will be given only to the red Arnobius Come the dog one other argument that dr. Costa made that I think is fairly irrelevant to our discussion today is the intermediate conscious ten.

I'm not disputing. Otherwise, I'm not claiming. Otherwise. So if humans have souls including Jesus that are conscious between death and resurrection It in no way follows from that that their resurrection bodies will also be made it immortal.

So the vast majority as far as I can tell of my friend. Dr. Costa's opening case really didn't 33 so it's not an outright quote Resurrected humans can go check out loop 33 verses 34 and following because it doesn't say.

Worthy.

33 doesn't it says what I've said that only. It indicates at least what I have said that only this resurrected saved. But saved will be or are equal to angels. It's important to note that in the parallel passages I and 30 who will be unable to die anymore are the angels in heaven.

We came to that age case and I'll remind you what that was. First of all the tree of life. Access to it was revoked. Tree of life reappears in the closing chapters of Revelation where only the saved had access to its fruit.

Indicating that all but living forever Paul says that immortality has to be sought and will be received only by some. He says that it's meant To make the gave his only son that whoever. Thank you Chris and now we're going to have dr.

Tony Costa provide his seven minute rebuttal to Chris States opening statement.

Cross-Examination on Angels, the Intermediate State, and the Nature of Death

By.

The way, dr. Costa, I have to interrupt you briefly. Could you get closer to whatever phone or device you're using because you seem very distant. That much better, please continue to do the.

Was pointing out in my rebuttal for my rebuttal period I just want to point out that the the part our debate today is time of the resurrection. Daniel talked about the of the damned and the bodies of the dead.

There will be a resurrection of the just and the unjust now. It's true that the script that we are now married to a new husband. That is Jesus the relationship. We don't believe that there's only believer Sharon because they are in relationship and are not In you know ending.

That's why Jesus come here. I know more as resurrected being we can mind elated.

Well, thank you. Dr. Tony Costa, and we're going to be going to our midway break right now. The midway break is always a longer than normal break that we have that is because Grace life radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida Who airs this program twice a day in the morning drive 8 to 10 a .m.

And also 8 to 10 p .m in a pre-recorded fashion. They require of us this midway break because according to FCC regulations They have to localize iron sharpens iron radio to Lake City, Florida and therefore they use this time in the middle of our show to air their own public service announcements and local Content so please while they air their local Public service announcements and local content.

We are going to be airing our globally heard commercials and Please use this time wisely don't just to go to sleep or necessarily take a bathroom break or whatever, of course, you might have to but Please use this time to write down the information provided by our advertisers.

Because remember folks we depend upon our advertisers to exist as a program the financial support their advertising campaigns provide. Enable iron sharpens iron radio to continue to broadcast. Therefore the more you patronize our advertisers.

It is logical that the more likely they will remain on the air as our advertisers for a longer period of time. Which obviously subsequently means that we will remain on the air due to the fact that they are supporting us financially.

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Be successful in your attempts to patronize them. I'll also use this time to write down questions because at the end of the debate we're going to be Given five minutes or more God-willing for listener questions and we hope that they are evenly divided between those that are either neutral on the issue or who either support immortality only be given being given to the saved or that they are given to all of humanity either for eternal life with Christ or eternal damnation and torment.

So Write down those questions and you can send them to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris a RNZ and a gmail .com and keep in mind That we will read these questions at the end of the program about five minutes before the conclusion of the program.

Don't go away. God willing. We're gonna be right back after these message from our sponsors with more of the debate.

James White of Alpha and Omega ministries and the dividing line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach preach and debate at numerous venues some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the Brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church now located at their new beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York.

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