October 9, 2019 Show with Dr. Tony Costa and Chris Date Debating “Eternal Conscious Punishment vs. Conditional Immortality” (Part 2)

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This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this ninth day

of October 2019 and today is part two of the debate that we began

yesterday on the theme eternal conscious punishment versus Conditional

immortality.

Our debaters.

Once again, our dr Tony Costa who is an advocate of eternal conscious

punishment?

That sounds like a kind of a strange things to say.

You're an advocate of eternal conscious punishment but he believes that this is a biblical truth and

he is professor of apologetics in Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary in Toronto, Canada and.

Our other debater today is Chris date who is a conditional immortality advocate and

he is host of the theopolytics podcast and co -editor of rethinking

health and consuming passion and a consuming passion and the.

The sub theme that we are debating today or that our two debaters are debating today is.

Is.

Conscious torment of the damned eternal is conscious torment of the damned

eternal and.

We are going to begin the debate or part two of the debate with Chris state once again giving

opening remarks lasting ten minutes.

Chris if you will.

Yesterday, I demonstrated that the Bible consistently teaches that the resurrection bodies of only the saved will be

made immortal.

Contrary to the doctrine of eternal torment.

Despite this clear and consistent message my brother in Christ and friend.

Dr.

Costa said in his rebuttal what virtually all believers in eternal torment say and must say In

order to defend belief that the resurrection bodies of the damned will be immortal as well.

Namely, he said that a handful of texts seem to teach that the resurrected lost will suffer torment

forever in hell.

Requiring that they will be immortal.

Despite the reams of biblical evidence to the contrary.

Now, of course, I could just flip dr Costas argument around and say the reams of biblical evidence indicating that only the resurrected

saved will be made immortal.

Certainly that he does but I won't do that.

And here's why what convinced me to abandon belief in eternal torment more than anything else was that

with virtually no exception.

Every single proof text historically cited in support of eternal torment proves upon closer

Examination to be better support for conditional immortality.

And so I'm happy to demonstrate now in my opening that the handful of texts dr Costa thinks prove his view

do nothing of the sort and that they prove instead that the resurrected lost will literally die a second time.

Then be made immortal and live.

I'll start with what we conditional three.

That is the three texts most commonly cited in support of it.

Matthew 25 41 to 46.

Everything about this passage support conditional immortality and works against eternal torment.

The phrase eternal fire in verse 41 was used earlier by Jesus in Matthew 18 8 and 9 where it

is parallel to Gehenna.

The New Testament Greek transliteration of the Old Testament value of the top within them.

God says in Jeremiah 7 32 to 33 that this valley will one day be called the valley of slaughter.

Because God's enemies will be slain and their bodies eaten up by scavenging beasts and birds.

This picture of death destruction is the picture Jesus evokes when he speaks of Gehenna.

And therefore when he speaks of eternal fire there is used in intertest mental literature like

Qumran's community rule.

Which says the wicked will be sentenced to the gloom of everlasting fire to a shameful extinction in the fire

of hell's outer darkness other destruction with neither remnant nor rescue.

And Jude uses eternal fire to describe the fire that came down from heaven and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

So when Jesus says in Matthew 25 46 that the wicked will go into eternal punishment We already have a sense of what that punishment

is death by eternal fire the likes of which destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

The Greek word translated punishment can refer to capital punishment as it does in 2nd Maccabees 438 in which

Antiochus Executes the murderer andronicus and then quote the Lord that's repaid him with the punishment

He deserved.

And in Matthew 25 46 eternal punishment is the alternative to eternal life so the punishment must

be death if the punishment for sin is death the cessation and ongoing probation of life and if an

Executed sinners lifelessness lasts forever.

His punishment is as eternal as the life of the saved.

So Matthew 25 41 to 46 does not teach that the wicked will be tormented forever.

It teaches that they will be killed and never live again.

14 9 to 11 he's three symbols to describe the

fate of the wicked.

Drinking God's wrath torment and fire and brimstone and smoke rising from torment forever.

But all three of these symbols are used later in the very same book and vision in Revelation 18 9 and 19

where the harlot mystery Babylon is made to drink.

She's tormented in fire and brimstone and smoke rises from her forever.

But in Revelation 18 21 an angel interprets this imagery for John Saying that it

symbolizes that Babylon the great will be thrown down with violence and will be found no more.

Now we 21st century Westerners might not understand why this imagery can symbolize destruction.

But that is how John's original readers would have understood it after all this imagery comes from the Old Testament

such as Genesis 19 in which Abraham sees smoke rising from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and In Isaiah 34 10

where smoke rises forever from the destruction of the city of Edom.

So Revelation 14 9 to 11 does not teach that the wicked will be tormented forever.

It teaches that they will be killed destroyed.

The third of the big three is Revelation 20 10 to 15 and there's so much I could say about this text in

Demonstrating that it supports conditional immortality, but I'll say just two things for now.

First it is not only the devil beast false prophet and unsaved humans who are thrown into the lake of fire.

Death and Hades are thrown into it as well symbolizing what God says just a few verses later in Revelation 21 for

Etsy death shall be no more.

The lake of fire that symbolizes Destruction when it comes to death and Hades who were depicted in the vision as conscious entities the horsemen

of the apocalypse.

We should not expect the imagery to symbolize destruction when it comes to all the conscious entities John sees thrown into the lake of fire

and 21 8 saying it symbolizes the second death.

Symbolic visions are perplexing and mysterious, but their interpretation is delivered in plain straightforward language.

So as the interpretation of the perplexing imagery second death is straightforward in meaning the risen wicked

having died a first time and come back to life will now die a second time.

Contrary to the doctrine of eternal torment which says the risen wicked will be made immortal and will never die.

Now I'll turn away from the big three and look at a few other texts taught by some to teach eternal torment.

In Mark 9 48 Jesus says that in Gehenna their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

But this does not refer to living immortals forever providing food and fuel to worms and fire.

Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66 24 Which says it is the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against

God whose worms shall not die and whose fire shall not be quenched.

Like the scavenging beasts and birds in Jeremiah 7 33 who will completely consume the corpses of God's enemies because they

can't be frightened away.

So to the maggot here won't be prevented by death from fully consuming corpses.

Unquenchable in texts like Ezekiel 20 47 to 48 Jeremiah 17 27 and Amos 5

6 in those places this Unquenchable fire is said to completely burn things up and that's the

point of fire that can't be quenched.

You see to quench does not mean to die out.

It means to put out completely burn things up.

So mark 9 48 does not support eternal torment.

It supports conditional immortality according to which the damned will be killed and destroyed.

Now dr Costa mentioned Daniel 12 to yesterday which says the righteous will rise to everlasting life and the wicked to shame and

everlasting contempt.

Notice only the righteous were can't be made immortal

and live forever as dr Costa believes they will get feeling

contempt forever.

The only other place the Hebrew word translated contempt is used They are home is used in

Isaiah 66 24 where it describes the corpses of God's enemies as

another Daniel 412 to

the wicked bolt will be raised shamed destroyed and remember

believers in eternal torment sometimes 5 seconds.

Thessalonians 1 9 in which some translations say the wicked will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction away from

translation away from leads some to think the

picture at the Preposition apart

just means from and here it makes the presence of God the cause of the wicked's eternal destruction.

Indeed in verse 8 Paul mentioned flaming fire and inflicting vengeance a combination of terms found in well only one

other place in Scripture Isaiah 66 15 a scene in which God's enemies are slain.

So eternal destruction is being killed forever not being made immortal and living forever in hell as dr. Costa

believes.

Interestingly, dr. Costa cited Matthew 10 28 in his rebuttal yesterday in which Jesus indicates that whereas men

can kill the body But not the soul God will destroy both soul and body.

In Gehenna in cross -examination yesterday.

Dr. Costa admitted that in the synoptic Gospels when the Greek word Apollon is here translated destroy is

used in the way It's used here in Matthew 10 28.

It means to slay or kill.

So Jesus is here saying God will slay both the bodies and souls of the wicked in hell not Make them immortal

so they can live forever as dr. Costa believes.

I'll offer one brief theological argument before I close to supplement my exegetical case.

The doctrine of substitutionary atonement means that Jesus suffered what we deserve for our sin in our place.

What did Jesus suffer death?

He died literally the wages of sin is death and because Jesus bore that fate in our place We

will instead one day live.

The wicked then must ultimately suffer death for their sin not be made immortal so they can live forever as dr.

Costa believes.

So Matthew 25 41 to 46 Revelation 14 9 to 11 Revelation 20 10 to 15 mark

9 48 Isaiah 66 24 Daniel 12 2 and 2nd Thessalonians 1 9 all

Positively teach the same thing as Matthew 10 28 in hell the resurrected wicked will not be

made immortal and live forever.

They will die never to live again.

That's why Jesus died for his people to suffer We will one day be raised from death.

Thank you, Chris.

And now dr.

Tony Costa will begin with his 10 -minute opening remarks.

Thank you very much, Chris.

And again, thank you.

Chris state for joining during this debate and and being with us again on this second day.

So I'm going to defend the thesis is conscious torment of the damned eternal.

I'm going to be defending it in the affirmative and I think that we need to begin by first

Establishing that I agree with Chris state that the rule of authority here should be the scripture

alone.

But not just all the scripture of a toast of scripture.

It's not just one one portion of scripture says but also with all of scripture says.

It's also important to Maintain here that the hermeneutical method that the Lord Jesus Christ

taught his disciples.

The method to interpret the Old Testament is to interpret through the New Testament.

That is to say through Christological lenses not to interpret the New Testament by the old.

But to look at the Old Testament through the eyes of Jesus Christ where he is presented therein.

We also must not ignore the fact that whereas there are shadows and types in the Old Testament The New Testament

has the fulfillment also the Old Testament We need to remember for the most

part is this worldly it addresses issues Pertaining to this world and living long in the land so

that it is in a sense Geocentric not to say that there's nothing that speaks of the new heavens in the new earth.

There certainly is my day 65 and 6 but the Old Testament folks is mostly on the here and

now whereas the New Testament looks forward to The kingdom of God coming on earth and the new heavens and the new

earth and the new Jerusalem and so forth.

Another point I think that must be established is that We need to maintain the the reality of progressive revelation.

That is to say that God progressively reveals things to us through scripture.

We don't find everything revealed in the book of Genesis or or in first Samuel or Isaiah

we need to look at the whole counsel of God as he has revealed it and also understand that the

Development of theology also took place during the second temple Jewish period.

Third which is a part of it and then of course into the New Testament.

What we do see is that from the Old Testament?

We do see pastors that speak about the damnation of the law and I truly believe That Daniel 12

to does make reference to that idea.

66 24 also alludes to that.

But then that develops into the Intertestate period that we see that in second Maccabees and fourth Maccabees in the book of

Judas in various Intercontinental writings that clearly speak about eternal torment

eternal conscious torment the first book of Enoch and so forth.

And I believe that in the New Testament We come into a world where this is clearly taught and assumed.

Most Jews according to many scholars of the first century and second temple Judaism believed in eternal

conscious punishment.

They did believe that the damned would be judged in the next life.

The Jews believed in the Olam Haba that is the world to this world and the Olam Haba the world

that is to come.

You'll let the Olam has let me repeat that Sorry, the Olam has a this world and the Olam

Haba is the world that it's become.

We also know from Josephus that the Pharisees and the Athenians also believe in the eternal punishment of

the wicked.

Josephus was a Pharisee himself and the Apostle Paul also was a Pharisee and it's interesting that in Jesus

disputes with the Pharisees.

He never disputed the issue of eternal punishment or eternal conscious torment.

The only thing that he disputed with them was issues over the Torah his identity issues concerning the Sabbath

tradition of the elders.

And so we never see any dispute whatsoever other than with the Sadducees denied resurrection of the dead.

And again, I think it's important that we understand the biblical context speaks about an honor shame paradigm.

The honor shame paradigm has a lot to say about The faith of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

The unrighteous would face eternal shame and temp the righteous would Have honor from God

and justification so forth.

Now the passages that I'm going to also use to support my contention is is the ones that Chris also

used.

But from a different angle and in Mark 9 Jesus points out that if your hand calls you to sin cut it

off.

Better for you to enter life crippled and with two hands to go to hell to the unquenchable fire.

He goes on to mention that if your foot calls you to sin cut it off.

It's better for you to enter into light flame and with two feet to be thrown into hell.

Of course the word hell there's henna and if your eye calls you to sin tear it out.

It's better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the henna where their worm does not

die and the fire is not quenched.

And the Jews of Jesus's day and the Pharisees as well understood these terms taken from

Isaiah 66 24 to Refer to the eternal punishment of

the wicked and There's nothing said here about cessation of existence or going out

as my friend Chris maintains the final judgment scene in Matthew 25 where the Jesus compares

himself to a shepherd who comes to separate the goats from the sheep.

It's very clear.

There are two parties here.

There's a sheep from which he says come and here at the kingdom Prepared for you from the foundation of the world and then he turns to those

on his left and he says depart from me.

You cursed it into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

And then in verse 46 of Matthew 25 and these will go away into eternal punishment.

But the Rikers into eternal life, you will notice in verse 41.

Jesus says depart from me.

This is spatial distancing.

This is the punishment away from the presence of Christ.

You see that also in Matthew 7 Where he says depart from me you workers of iniquity I never knew you and then he sends them

forth into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels in verse 46 Is

used interchangeably with either the sign of God's judgment throughout the Old Testament

and so here it is used interchangeably so that's the eternal fire and the eternal punishment are

Phenomenal and the righteous go into eternal life.

It's also important to realize this are the same here I own you they are both

eternal state and this has always been understood States or as

I put it there's only two places the smoking section and the non smoking section.

And so in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 1 5 to 10 the Apostle Paul tells the Thessalonians About the wicked

in verse 9 that they will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction Away from the presence of the Lord he saw

that in Matthew 25 part for me indicating in moving away from the presence of the risen Christ and

Paul goes on to say that they will experience its eternal punishment away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His

might and so here in this one verse we notice that this destruction described as eternal.

This does not have.

My friend Chris would argue that this has eternal consequences.

I.

See this as a state that they will experience and that they will be away from the presence of the Lord.

The same thing in The book Revelation 21 22 where those outside the city are the dogs notice

They're outside of the presence of God.

In the New Jerusalem Revelation again 14 9 to 11.

If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand.

He will drink the wine of God's wrath pourful strength into the cup of his anger and he will be Tormented

with fire and sulfur in the presence of the Holy Angels and in the presence of the land

Judgment being portrayed here.

This torment is described in verse 11 as the smoke of their torment goes up forever and

ever and they have no rest day Or night.

Throughout the book Revelation the word I own knows the word forever and ever appears 13 times and in each instance

It means forever and ever that is eternally and so notice as well that the the

saved experience rest.

But the unsaved the damned experience Unrest or torment and this can only mean

conscious Torment.

There's nothing in this passage to indicate that this is a terminal act where there's something snuffed out of

existence or annihilated.

In Revelation 20 Verse 10 the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the

false prophet were.

1920 were told that Armageddon that the beast and the false prophet would be torn to the lake of fire

That burns with sulfur and here the devil is now thrown after the millennium the thousand -year reign of

Christ.

He's thrown there.

The beast and the false prophet are still there and they will be tormented night and day

Forever and ever.

That phrase night and day is using the book Revelation to denote continuous time and then

Revelation 20 20 verses 14 to 15 then death and Hades were thrown to the lake of fire.

This is the second death the lake of fire.

If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life He was thrown in the lake of fire.

And so this comports with what we read in Matthew 25 that Unsaved men and women

unsaved humanity goes to the same place as the devil and his angels in here Revelation 20 14 15 we

find a confirmation of that fact that the wicked those who do not have their name written in the book of Life are thrown

into the lake of fire in the same same bird in the very same place.

Where the devil and the false prophet the beast and of course his angels are so I believe that these texts show

that there is.

A.

Conscious torment that goes on here and that this conscious torment is Described as Ionio's pit Ionio's from

forever and ever day and night.

They have no rest and so Our emotions aside we have to

subscribe to what God has revealed in his word and it seems clear to me from Old Testament Through New Testament.

I hold to the dichotomous view that man is not just material that he's not just physicist.

I'm not a physicist like as my friend my good friend Chris Davis.

I'm a dichotomous.

I believe that humans have both a soul and a body so that Survives death and I believe that they are conscious

after death and they remain conscious even after the resurrection.

Their bodies are not described explicitly as mortal.

But it's very clear that they do continue to exist even in the lake of fire away

from the presence of God.

Thank you very much.

Well, thank you Tony and we are going to our first station break.

When we return from our station break we will be continuing The debate with

a different phase or session where Chris date will have seven minutes to rebut

the opening statements of Tony Costa and that will be followed by Tony Costa's seven -minute

rebuttal with Chris States opening statements.

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We are now back with our debate.

This is a debate between an advocate of Conditional

immortality Chris date and an advocate of eternal conscious punishment

who is dr. Tony Costa.

And.

Now is the session during this debate where our two debaters are offering their rebuttals.

To the opening statements that you heard.

And we are going to begin with a seven minute rebuttal by Chris date.

Remember what I said in the beginning of my opening.

Dr. Costa's argument is that a handful of texts require that we believe the resurrected Wicked.

The reams of biblical evidence indicate but as

you've just heard the very same text.

Dr Costa has in mind are the ones I exegeted as positive evidence in support of my view.

This should cause listeners to be skeptical of dr. Costa's argument that these texts justify Believing the

resurrected wicked will be made immortal when so many other texts in the case.

They will not that having been said after dr. Costa's case.

He began by saying that we shouldn't interpret the New Testament through the lens of the old but rather the other way around.

And I don't dispute this.

But when the New Testament does not elaborate on the language of the old when it just uses Language and idioms and symbols

that appeared in the old that don't elaborate on them to give an indication that they mean something Fundamentally different from what they meant in the

Old Testament.

We can't impose our 21st century Western English minds and readings upon those texts.

We have to let the New Testament authors use the language as they would have understood that language which they would have gotten

from the Old Testament.

Dr. Costa also said that the Old Testament is primarily this worldly not next worldly.

That's that may be true.

But hell is on earth.

The resurrection is to a to earth.

It's on earth and it's there that the wicked will be finally destroyed.

And it's there is a new heavens in a new earth.

But it's not as if this is some other place in the cosmos some other dimension or anything.

It's this dimension but glorified and made perfect.

So that that point really doesn't have any merit to it.

Now when it comes to the actual text he began he touched on two Old Testament passages.

First Daniel 12 only the righteous are going to receive eternal life

when it comes to the wicked dr Costa misquoted Daniel 12 to a little bit later in his opening and said that

it speaks of eternal shame and contempt.

That's false.

It speaks of shame and eternal contempt.

Now.

This is important because dr. Costa is right.

This was an honor shame culture and shame is the experience the emotion felt by the one who is

shameful.

But but that's not what contempt is.

Contempt is an experience felt by the ones

24 it's the emotion that the righteous feel when they look at the corpses of God slain

enemies that are Contemptible or an abhorrence to all mankind.

So yes, they are held forever in contempt of them the way we might remember Hitler in contempt, but it does

not follow that they will live forever and be immortal.

In fact, as I've already pointed out Daniel 12 to you says only the righteous will rise unto eternal life.

As for the intertestimal intertestamental literature, dr. Costa is

and now out the

debunked view.

Namely that the intertestamental literature is primarily One that attests to the

doctrine of eternal torment.

That is false.

That's actually not true.

The reality is that that literature it contains a diversity of views.

For example Edward Fudge in his the fire that consumes he writes.

There's no question that eternal torment is very ancient and that it finds expression in some parts of the Jewish intertestamental

literature but the literature of Second Temple Judaism also documents the continuation of the view we found throughout the Old

Testament the Expectation of a future day when the wicked will be slain will cease to be in fact track and

Billerbeck.

Leading authorities on Jewish rabbinical literature suggest that whenever the pseudepigraphy speaks of eternal punishment It may

intend for the phrase to mean everlasting annihilation.

I quoted the community rule from the coop from the first Qumran scroll in my opening which says which

sounds at first like it's Eternal torment.

It says the judgment of all who walk in such ways will be afflictions at the hand of the angels of perdition Everlasting damnation

and the wrath of God serious vengeance and etc, etc, etc.

But then it says with a shameful extinction outer darkness generation.

They will know doleful sorrow bitter evil and dark happenstance and with neither remnant

nor rescue.

He closes his

contribution.

He's an expert on intertestamental literature incidentally and he points out that no one in Jesus generation as far as we know was

asking what hell was like or where it was.

Or what kind of punishment occurred there?

They were all agreed that it was characterized by fire and darkness with pain and torment and eventual destruction.

Contemporaries of the rabbis tended to emphasize the eternal consequences of hell more than others in order to counter the idea that

someone could Visit hell for a short punishment.

You see the Literature between the Testaments is first of all not unifical.

It is not.

This is not a test primarily to eternal torment.

It actually contains a diversity of views and arguably the bulk of those views are the view that I have

which is that the wicked Will finally die not be made immortal and live forever.

In fact, that's how the phrase second death is used throughout the intertestamental intertestamental literature to refer to the wicked either

not rising at all Or rising and then literally dying again.

So the intertestamental intertestamental literature provides no support for I shouldn't say no support.

It provides little support for Dr. Costa's view as for the Pharisees.

Yes, he says in one passage.

Sorry, Josephus says about the Pharisees in one passage that they believed in eternal torment, but he's also there

what he's saying.

There is.

We could be skeptical but about what he said there because one person saying what the Pharisees believe is Does not

prove that he's right about it all and he's trying to make he's trying to appeal to Greeks to pagan Greeks in that passage

who already believed to be the mortality of the soul and he may very well have just been Trying to make the Pharisees be more palatable to

them in any event when it comes to the New Testament.

Dr. Costa quoted a number of texts that I've already exegeted in my opening.

So I'll just mention some that he did not mark 943 does say Jesus does say you don't want to go with two

hands into the unquenchable fire.

But again unquenchable fire is fire that can't be put out and so completely destroyed in fact.

That's how it's used in Matthew 3 12 and and Matt 13 30 in which unquenchable fire

causes It kata kayos the things that are thrown into it kata Kayo is a Greek word that

doesn't mean it's just to burn it means to completely burn up.

So unquenchable fire doesn't support Dr. Costa's view.

It works against it.

He pointed out that Matthew 25 41 to 46 uses the part for me and he called that spatial distancing and yet.

Then he went on to quote Revelation 14 9 to 11 where it says they'll be formatted in the presence of a lamb.

I don't.

It's just interesting the the argument that he's trying to make there which seems pretty Self -contradictory.

Much more could be said about his case.

The thing I want to emphasize is just that the vast majority the text Dr. Costa cited or wasn't I cited in my opening because they teach

the final destruction of the wicked.

Thank you.

Thank you, Chris state and now we will hear a seven minute rebuttal From dr. Tony

Costa who is rebutting Chris states opening statements and once again, the Tony

Costa is An advocate of eternal conscious torment or punishment and if you will

Tony you can begin.

Yeah, thank you very much.

The point I think that also has to be stressed in this debate is that Nowhere in the New

Testament or the Old Testament We see the notion that things that are destroyed simply

are snuffed out of existence or annihilated.

And I think the problem here is that I know Chris yesterday said that he doesn't use the word annihilation.

But that is exactly what it is at the end that were killed or snuffed

out or brought to nothing and therefore They no longer exist.

The words to destroy to kill do not logically Mean that you are

making something you're making something non -existent.

The other thing I also mentioned about Matthew 25 41 to 46 when I talked about the spatial distancing of

Departing from the presence of Christ, of course, that's why I said in Revelation 14 9 to 11 We have a court

scene there.

That is a judgment scene where they're being punished in the presence of the Lamb and the Holy Angels who are acting as witnesses

against them.

But second Thessalonians 1 9 also says that they are shut out there shut out from away from the Lord from the

presence of the Lord into eternal destruction.

The other thing that is important to note here is that when I was mentioning the New Testament

Explaining the Old Testament what I was pointing out here was that the New Testament does

emphasize an otherworldly Position the Old Testament for the most part is about

the land living long in the land.

And yes, the prophets did look forward to the time of Messiah would come and God would create a new heaven and a new earth.

It's important to realize that many of the types and The shadows that were used in the Old Testament are

expanded in the New Testament.

So for example in Mark 9 42 43 and following or Jesus talks about the worm

not dying and The fire not being quenched that he's referring to Isaiah 66 24.

But Isaiah 66 24 as acknowledged by a number of Old Testament scholars like Daniel

block They and also all trade more care.

He has child they point out that is a

background of a of a battle scene.

And people going to the temple Worshiping the Lord every Sabbath every new moon from Sabbath the Sabbath new moon to

new moon in the temple.

And then they would walk out and see those who the Lord had destroyed.

Daniel block points out in his book in the book that that he's one of the contributors hell under fire

page 65.

He says prior to Daniel 12 to we find no clear evidence of belief in hell.

If by hell we mean a place of eternal torment and judgment to the wicked.

It would be left to later revelation in the New Testament to develop this image from the doctrine of health.

It calls much of its imagery on the Old Testament.

Particularly the images of perpetual suffering through maggots and unquenchable fire and Isaiah 66 24.

And so I think it's important to realize that we understand that when Jesus speaks about

Punishment of conscious eternal punishment.

He's borrowing the imagery from the Old Testament now Josephus.

He said That he did say that Pharisees believed in eternal punishment and the

survival of the soul.

After that Josephus himself was a Pharisee.

And so I don't see why Josephus would be disingenuous there on that particular point the

Apostle Paul was a Pharisee.

You'll notice Chris did not address the point that Jesus never entered into any disputes with the religious leaders of his day with the Pharisees.

About the subject of eternal punishment or or what or conditional immortality for that matter.

To be a given that as scholars have noted the the Jews of the first century Sanders note that

most Jews believed in eternal punishment eternal conscious punishment and life after death and The

schools of Shammai and halal which were the two main schools of Jesus.

They also subscribe to eternal conscious punishment.

It's also important to understand that in in the Old Testament world The Hebrews were not physicalist

as the position that that Chris Tate holds to the Jews believed that the soul the spirit of

the deceased went to Sheol everybody went to Sheol and They believed that there was a real existence a

spiritual place of shape as it was known.

And so the everlasting contempt that that Daniel is speaking up.

The only reason why I brought in the word shame is I'm simply using the paradigm That it was known in the

engineering including Israel of honor and shame and what I'm trying to point out here.

Is that contempt is is something that that does bring shame?

And even whether it's from the person who is shamed or the ones who are looking upon that shame.

It's still based on that paradigm of honor and shame in the ancient world.

So I don't take everlasting contempt in Daniel 12 to necessitate that that the wicked

simply died or annihilated.

The other point I'd like to mention is that the second death that Chris Tate makes mention of he takes that as simply

a literal second death.

But in fact the wicked actually really died three deaths when you think about it.

They they're spiritually dead even now.

Away from God's grace unless God regenerates them.

They remain dead in their trespasses and sins.

And so The unbelievers are presently dead and then they experience physical death.

But then the second death is that final separation from God's presence at the Great White Throne Judgment and that is

why they are Judged books are open they are judged and they are cast into the lake of fire where the

devil and his angels or Also the false prophet and beast are and so the the

pattern here seems to be the same.

So to say that I'm maintaining that the bodies of the wicked are immortal.

I've said before that the word immortality only appears three times in the Greek New Testament and that it is applied to believers in

1st Corinthians 15.

But the fact that the wicked do continue to exist as a unit of spirit

body the composite entity.

In the resurrection of the wicked I think is a well -established fact in Scripture and and that the

consciousness of the wicked is something that they will experience that Torment that they will experience and that torment is

Separation from God, but that's the the pain of the damned is to be separated

from God.

Goodness to be separated from his presence that that's the some of the church fathers and the

Reformers alluded to is the beautific vision of God of seeing God and so forth.

And therefore I think that it's important to maintain that when the Bible does use language like

Destruction and internal punishment and internal fire Chris has yet to demonstrate that this

demonstrates the part taken out

that they simply cease to exist.

And so I think that that is something that I don't think I've heard yet either in today's debate or

yesterday's debate and so the The idea then that that the wicked

continue to suffer eternal torment eternal conscious separation from God I think it's very well

established in the scriptures.

And I think that is why The church for for most part of its history up till today

Has maintained this position both in the Protestant?

I'm sorry.

We're out of time.

Okay, and now we are going to our midway break.

This is the longer than normal break that we have because of Grace Life Radio in

Lake City, Florida Who airs our program in a pre -recorded format twice daily?

They require of us a longer break in the middle because the FCC requires them to

air public service announcements and other things that Localize iron

sharpens iron radio and the rest of their programming to Lake City, Florida.

So while they air their own Public service announcements and other local

things during this break we air our globally heard commercials.

And once again, I urge you please To write down as many of the or as

much of the information that is provided by our advertisers So that you can more frequently and successfully

patronize them because keep in mind folks if you love this show.

The only thing that's going to help us Remain on the air is the donations of generous

listeners like you and also our advertisers who spend a very hard

-earned money on These commercials that are aired during this program.

So please Obviously the longer or should I say the more frequently you

patronize our advertisers the more likely We are going to remain on the air because our

advertisers are more likely going to stick around and continue to support us financially.

So keep that in mind and also During this break write down questions That we will try to

squeeze in at the end of this debate we will read as many of

the questions that you offer as Time will permit after the closing statements

of our two debaters.

So we look forward to hearing from you and your questions for both Chris date and Tony Costa at Chris

Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with the second half of our debate on

Conditional immortality versus eternal conscious punishment.

Don't go away.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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our debate today on conditional immortality versus eternal conscious punishment.

Punishment we have a couple of events that we want you to be aware of that.

We hope that you will attend.

One that I am going to be attending.

God willing is the Long Island Spurgeon Fellowship Conference Presenting the doctrines of

grace.

This is going to be held November 1st and November 2nd at the Hope Reformed Baptist Church of

Quorum, Long Island, New York.

And if you want more details on this conference, you can go to hope reformed li .net.

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Won't get all the information that you need then after that.

I Am going to once again attend the foundations conference in New York City.

This is a phenomenal conference and it's for men in ministry leadership only.

One of the reasons for that is that the venue is very small can only seat less than 200 people.

So if you're a man in ministry leadership When you want to join me Thursday and Friday December 19th

and 20th in Manhattan.

And what better place to be during the Christmas season than in Manhattan?

Then please go to the foundations conference calm above foundations conference calm.

The speakers include Stephen J. Lawson Paul Washer Jeff Thomas Arman

Tamasian Richard Colwell jr.

And Andrew Quigley.

Once again, that's the foundations conference calm.

The foundations conference calm then in January.

I Am going to be once again Packing up my bags and heading down south to Atlanta, Georgia.

More specifically College Park, Georgia to the Georgia International Convention Center.

And that's where they held the g3 conference which stands for gospel grace and glory.

This January's theme is worship matters and Once again, that's Thursday,

January 16th through Saturday, January 18th.

The lineup of speakers is always extraordinary and This January is no exception.

They include once again, Stephen J. Lawson.

They include my friend, dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega ministries, they include my friend Phil Johnson who has

been Interviewed on the iron truffle design radio more than any other guest in the history of this program.

He is the executive director of John MacArthur's media ministry grace to you.

My friend Todd Freel of wretched TV and wretched radio is on the roster.

Derek Thomas the world -renowned Presbyterian author and pastor and conference

speaker.

Dr. Tom Askell who is the executive director of founders ministries the Calvinistic ministry within the

Southern Baptist Convention.

Stephen J. Nichols the president of The Reformation Bible College the college founded by the late R .C.

Sproul and Ligonier ministries the aforementioned Kosti Hinn the nephew of the

notorious charlatan and heretic Benny Hinn and Kosti doesn't mind me saying that because he says that and more

about his uncle who he has renounced publicly as a heretic and charlatan and More than

that has repented of the word -of -faith heresies of his youth.

He is now a reformed Baptist pastor and a cessationist and as you have heard in a

previous ad John MacArthur himself has been added to the lineup and I am so excited

about that if you want to join me there in College Park, Georgia

Thursday January 16th through Saturday January 18th.

Go to g3 conference calm g3 conference calm and remember as I have been urging you if you have a

business a power of church ministry a special event that you want to promote.

Anything that you want to promote to the body of Christ to a large number of people at the same time.

Well, I would urge you not only to register to attend the g3 conference.

But register for an exhibitors booth just like I have done.

This will be my fourth year in a row Manning an exhibitors booth for iron trip and Zion radio and it's always

I'm not exaggerating.

It's always an extraordinary experience Manning an exhibitors booth there.

I can't even count the number of blessings.

I have received powerful blessing blessings and significant and Vital and

extraordinary blessings I have received not only for myself But for this radio program as a result of Manning an

exhibitors booth there.

They typically have over 5 ,000 people attending the g3 conference and with John MacArthur Added to the

lineup.

I truly believe that they are gonna have over 6 ,000 people.

That's just my hunch.

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So you want to register to just attend or also to register for an exhibitors booth go to g3

conference calm.

G3 conference calm, please.

Tell them that you heard about the conference from Chris Arns and an iron sharpens iron radio.

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in the subject line.

That's also the email address where you can send in a question to our guests Chris date and Tony Costa

on the debate that we are having conditional immortality versus eternal conscious

punishment and today.

The sub theme this is the second day of the debate.

The sub theme is is conscious torment of the damned eternal and Defending

the eternality of of the conscious torment is Tony Costa

of Toronto Baptist Seminary where he serves as a professor of apologetics in Islam

and and defending Conditional immortality or opposing eternal conscious

punishment is Chris date who is host of the theo apologetics podcast and co

-editor of rethinking hell and consume and a consuming passion.

So send in those questions and we will try to read as many as we can.

While time permits at the end of the program after their closing statements.

So that's Chris Arnson at gmail .com and now we will have our cross examinations begin.

I love this part of the debate.

That's the best part of the debate and we will begin with Chris state who will have 10 minutes to cross

-examine Tony Costa you can begin now.

Thanks Chris, and thank you.

Dr. Costa.

You said a couple of times in your rebuttal dr Costa that I haven't established that biblical language of destruction.

Means to cease to exist.

Have you ever heard me claim that it does whether in this debate or anywhere else?

If God will be no more

an isolation.

I'm pretty sure that throughout my opening statements in both of these debates I haven't talked about becoming no more or ceasing to be.

I've been talking about dying.

But you agreed in cross -examination yesterday that where the Greek word Apollo me is

used in the synoptic Gospels in the form that it's used in Matthew 1028.

That is the active Greek voice Transitively to describe a one personal agency to another it means to slay or kill

in any of those places.

Does the slaying or killing refer to being made immortal and living forever?

No, no, it does not.

Okay, it refers to it refers to the distort the destruction of the Christ child that is What

do you mean

by the slayings of the Christ

child.

I agree I grant that when a person violated It's not like the molecules.

No is not a living immortal person.

Okay.

Now you would agree I think that when a body is slain or killed it

ceases to be animate ceases to function that kind of thing.

Is that right?

Leave the soul departs.

What then do you think would happen to a soul that is also slain or killed as Jesus says God would do

to them in?

Matthew 1028 28 the word Apollo me there That is used there in Matthew 1028

is not for those who kill the body.

Mean that and he had up.

I take that to mean that I take the word Apollo me there to render useless to.

We've already

talked understand you think you have reasons for thinking

to assume for a moment that it's not if a body is slain or Killed just like it's the word

Apollo me is used everywhere else in that form and it's not the Gospels if a body is Apollo meet in that way meaning

slain or killed to a soul.

What do you think would happen to a

soul what it means?

I understand dr. Costa.

I'm asking you if if it you if it means What you and I have talked about it means and

so many of a body that becomes a

corpse ceases to be Functioning ceases to be animate etc.

What would that same fate be to take

the dichotomous you?

I believe that the soul is distinct from the body and I believe that if a soul is

Destroyed or killed it means that it is rendered useless that it is Given up to

to misery that it is not Functioning as it should be and so forth when a corpse

is slain is it?

No, that's because due to

my dichotomous

view.

I believe

that the soul

question I'm asking is You agreed if I am NOT Misrepresenting you that in

many other places and it's not the Gospels.

It's not all of them.

We haven't obviously gone through them all but it's not all of them when the Greek word Apollo me is used Me

it means to slay or kill and you admit that so

slain or killed any more and yet you think that destroy means something

different in Matthew 10 28.

Because you don't think that the bodies of the risen wicked will be rendered inanimate and non -functioning anymore.

And I understand you think you have reason for understanding it differently there.

But the question I'm asking you is if it means the same thing in Matthew 10 28 that it means everywhere else and it's not Gospels when used in

this way namely to slay a person and if to slay the body means to render it

Non -functioning and inanimate lifeless.

What would that same fate mean for a soul because God because you just does there say that men can't do that.

That's right.

What would a 28 the word Jesus uses for

kill there is not the same word He uses for what God

are you saying that most

translations Roy and those other passages

be fine.

We'll move on from this because it seems like you don't want to understand moving on.

Fine, we'll move on.

You said that second Thessalonians 1 9 says the wicked will be shut.

Can you please point me to the Greek words properly translated on the usage of

the preposition apple?

In chapter 1 verse 9 of 2nd Thessalonians and so The Greek preposition apple

means but it doesn't mean shut out.

I mean, can you can you show me anywhere in based on

the understanding that is

translated by by a number of samples

away from the Lord as it is.

In.

Okay, so you can't point anywhere.

That's why in my opening statement. I mentioned that it's not just full of scripture.

It's photo scripture.

And and so second Thessalonians 1 9 agrees with what Jesus says in Matthew 25

41.

Well, I think we agree with that but differently.

Um, yeah, the scholars agree that the terms flaming fire

Odin's 1 8 They appear together only in Isaiah 66

15 and the very next verse by fire Will the Lord enter into judgment and bite his

sword with all flesh and those slain by the Lord will be many.

My question for you then is why shouldn't we think Paul has the same idea in mind since he uses terminology only found together there.

I think in the context of Isaiah 6 6 a lot of these passages deal with God

subduing the enemies of Israel and sometimes even the apostates within Israel Bringing them to naught and

I think that poems 1 8 and 9 is clearly in this Psychological

context where he's dealing with the parochial and the Lord returns where.

Since since the final judgment is is

why should we think that the eschatological? Context means that Paul has something different in mind than the very language He quotes from

Isaiah 66 together that it has

judgments only birth found.

It's very obvious that We're dealing with The new heaven and then you were it's we're

dealing with the Jerusalem.

We're dealing with the world to come.

As is known in Hebrew allah baba and so the eschatological Context

I think it's referring to that last time the time of judgment Where God will bring in the

new heavens and the new earth and and the new Jerusalem.

I think there's also both a heavenly and earthly aspect

to this is the logical event.

Okay.

Now in your rebuttal, you said that corpses in Isaiah 66 24

experience with the

phrase eternal fire.

A number of times and you made the claim several times the first century Jews largely believed in eternal torment.

But in my opening I pointed out that eternal fire used in Qumran community rule.

Which said those confined to the gloom of everlasting fire will face a shameful Extinction and the fire of hell's outer darkness

utter destruction with neither remnant nor rescue.

How do you reconcile your reconciled your claims about eternal fire and first century Jewish views of hell with this text?

Would you just say that it's all unusual outlier?

Well, well because as you admitted there was not a monolithic view

among the Jews about Eternal punishment or a Maccabees

fourth Maccabees is very clear on this first knock as well Uses words like eternal torture

eternal punishment The apocalypse of Peter as well

the New Testament apocalyptic.

Okay, we're out of time for the first cross -examination.

Period by Chris.

Date now.

Dr. Tony Costa will cross -examine for a state.

Opening statement.

I made reference to EP Sanders and and a number of other scholars who have shown that in

the first century.

That the pharisaic belief was that there was.

Not only did they believe in the soul but they also believed that there was rewards of punishment.

And Rewards of eternal life in hereafter and also at the schools of Shabbat

Halal eternal conscious punishment as well.

Can you explain to us why it is that Jesus.

That this was an area that was never disputed by Jesus or the Apostles with the Pharisees of the day.

Yeah, because I don't think there was really anything to dispute.

I mean, we're gonna play a game of dueling.

EP Sanders.

We'll all fight.

David in stone Brewer.

David in stone Brewer an expert on Second Temple Judaism and intertestamental literature.

The schools of Shema Shema and Himel and Hillel and others.

And and other rabbis and other intertestamental literature all taught what I teach about hell and

final punishment.

Now there were exceptions to that.

But the point that I'm getting at is there was nothing for Jesus to dispute.

Unless we simply blindly accept Josephus's testimony about the Pharisees and treat that as the lens through which we

interpret everything else.

We note that the only fact that Jesus had any issues with when it

came to the question of the afterlife.

With the Sadducees because of their denial of the of the resurrection.

But would you admit that the only contention that Jesus had when it came to the afterlife?

Only pertain to that of the Sadducees and never the Pharisees.

Not necessarily because it's doctor.

He actually challenged their things like a

contribution out.

But again, the point I'm getting at is that Dr In stone Brewer and other scholars of the intertestamental period

will disagree with you and your scholars and say that no the Pharisees didn't.

That the rabbis didn't all believe in eternal torment.

And so I Your question.

I don't know what relevant it'd be like saying why doesn't Jesus tell the Pharisees?

They're wrong if he held to the view they held because I think they probably did hold the view that I hold.

So you believe the Pharisees of Jesus they would have helped to the things you help.

That's I think that's very plausible.

Yes so in in in intertestamental literature like that of 2nd

Maccabees and 4th Maccabees where it speaks in 4th Maccabees 9 -9 about eternal

torture by fire and Also eternal punishment in 2nd

Maccabees and 4th Maccabees each of the concept of

eternal punishment.

I would not.

I would not agree to that for the simple reason

that way too quick.

They believe Ron Scroll uses a lot of language that eternal torment

believers would think has to do with eternal torment as well.

And yet they're talking about extinction and utter destruction.

So I'm not convinced.

No that the Maccabees text that you cited teach that but even if it does you've got a host of other Intertestamental

intertestamental literature that disagrees mentioned already that we don't

have a monolithic.

You here when it comes to the question that you and I are both debating.

But anyway, I'll move on to the next question in in Isaiah 26 verses

13 14.

You have a Bible handy there.

Yeah with you and Isaiah 26 verses 13 14

the prophet there speaks about the dead not living.

And I was wondering if you could probably.

It says there.

Oh Lord our God other masters.

Then thou has ruled us but through thee alone.

We confess thy name the dead will not live.

The departed spirits Will not rise therefore that was punished and

destroyed them thou has wiped out all remembrance of them.

Is Isaiah saying here that the wicked would not have a resurrection and the judgment of God?

I would.

I don't think so because I believe in in the inerrancy of script.

That's what Isaiah is saying that eat that language.

I think what he means is they won't remain

alive.

That's what it'll be as if they really never rose to begin with.

But it does say in 14 that the dead the dead will not.

You believe

in the resurrection of the just and the unjust that there'll be a punishment a

resurrection to eternal life in a resurrection 28 to 29 29 points out

so so in Isaiah 26 Here that I've alluded to is Isaiah.

Is Isaiah contradicting that concept?

No, and I've just explained why.

We can speak about somebody not partaking in the resurrection and we can mean not that they won't rise at all.

But that they won't rise and remain alive forever.

And as I demonstrated yesterday.

That's the idea that Jesus seems to indicate in Luke 20 where he says that the sons of

30 He said those who are worthy to attain to the resurrection and that age will not be able to die anymore.

The obvious implication notwithstanding your disagreement is that those who are not so counted worthy will remain able to

die.

So we can talk about people not

partaking in the resurrection and not mean by that that they won't rise at all.

We can just mean they won't remain.

Then Isaiah 26 19 the prophet then turns and speaks of

your death.

The dead that belong to God will live and their corpses will rise in here.

We have a I think it's quite interesting that Isaiah here seems to think that

it's it's God's debt.

Those who are his people that will rise.

Whereas he seems to be indicating here at least at this point in progressive that do not

rise.

But Daniel again gives us further light on the model point there

Chris going on here.

I agree.

Yeah, let me just move on to the next question that revelation 14 and 9 to 11

where it says that They will drink the wine of God's wrath the full power and

full strength and and then it says he will be tormented with fire and Salt in the presence of the Holy Angels and present land

and the smoke of their torment goes up forever.

Never and they have no rest today or night.

Can you explain why it is that the smoke of their torment goes up forever?

When if they are simply taken out or

why would the smoke of their torment continue to go up forever?

Never?

Yeah, this is apocalyptic imagery and we have to let apocalyptic imagery be interpreted for us by not only the standards

of hermeneutical principles but also by the Interpreters in the text itself and that's important

because that same Concept of smoke rising forever from torment is used elsewhere in Revelation chapter

18.

The harlot mystery Babylon is tormented in fire and then at the beginning of Revelation 19 a chorus cries out

Hallelujah the smoke from her goes up forever and ever.

But you've got this picture of the harlot being tormented forever and ever and yet the angel interprets that imagery in

Revelation 18 21 saying so will the great city be thrown down with violence and be found no more.

But does it say the smoke of her torment is going up further?

We're dealing with a city there, right?

We're not dealing with a woman in Revelation 14.

Well, it's a woman that is the personification of Babylon the great but here in Revelation 14 9 to

11 we're dealing with people who have followed the beast and have Turned their backs on the Lamb

of God and so forth and here is a judgment scene that the presence of the Holy Angels Indicates the

judgment.

Shouldn't you then?

At least Admit here that the context is different.

We have it.

We have these are persons under judgment and If the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, I mean if

they're if they are extinguished or taken out.

How does how does the smoke their torment keep going up forever and ever?

You appear to think that I think the book of Revelation Depicts the wicked being slain

and not living for not living again forever.

But I've never made that claim in fact in all of the literature that I've produced and in the audio stuff that I've produced

I've Firmly admitted that yes, the book of Revelation depicts The wicked being tormented.

The question that we as biblical interpreters have to ask is what does that imagery mean?

And that in order to answer that question We have to look at what that imagery means elsewhere.

And as we just saw in Revelation 18, it means destruction not life and immortality and suffering forever.

And it comes from imagery elsewhere, which means the same thing.

So I prefer to apply standard principles of hermeneutics and to interpret the imagery in light of what?

That imagery means elsewhere in the very same vision.

Yes.

So in this context, we're dealing with people right

not not a city correspond to reality.

It may be there.

Oh, that's actually not correct the interpreters, but they are pictures there.

They are there are pictures of something but but let me just move on to the night.

We actually we are actually out of time for this segment.

I'm sorry.

We have reached the 10 -minute point now.

We're going to go to our final break and We are going to have final seven -minute rebuttals from

each of our debaters, so don't go away.

This is a much more brief break.

We'll be right back after these messages.

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You.

Welcome back.

And now it is time for Chris state to give his final seven minutes closing remarks.

Thank you as a rebuttal.

And just encourage listeners to check out my work at rethinking hell calm or the rethinking hell youtube channel

Edu profile where I've got some journal articles published on the topic.

Or just reach out to me by email at Chris state at rethinking hell calm be

happy to discuss further.

In the meantime when it comes to the case that dr. Costa has offered today He a number of times as

we discussed to exist and

that's despite the fact that I've never claimed.

Otherwise local language is to be slain and to not live

anymore and in contrast to that Dr. Costa believes the risen wicked will never be slain.

They will be made immortal and live forever in hell despite the reams of biblical evidence to the contrary.

Yes.

When a person is slain he does.

The molecules that makes it make up his body don't cease to exist those atoms don't poof out of existence.

Examination argue in the context of

this debate is a red herring.

It's utterly meaningless in this debate that could remain alive and immortal forever.

Dr. Costa believes they will.

Agreed when we were supposed that he's aware of anyway in which the

Greek word Apollo me translated destroy in Matthew 1028 is used in.

The same way it's used in Matthew 1028.

It means to slay or kill.

Yes, it's translated destroy.

But it means to slay or kill like this.

Like Herod wanted to do to the baby Jesus the Pharisees wanted to do to the adult.

It means in the way that Jesus uses it

in Matthew 1028 where elsewhere where it means ruin or properly.

It's all either they're inanimate objects like coins or oil or they

are animals like sheep.

Or the word is not in the Greek active voice or not used transitively.

Doesn't matter what the word means in those contexts.

What matters is what the word means when it's used in the active voice.

Transitively to describe to another and everywhere else.

That's not the Gospels.

It's used in that way.

It means to slay or kill but it's precisely slaying and killing that dr Costa does not believe will ever

ever ever happen for billions and trillions of years to the risen wicked in hell because they will be Immortal and

one line in cross -examination and he agreed that there's not there's no Greek

text sort of the idea of

being a 15.

There's flaming fire and inflicting vengeance where the language of destruction has to do with being slain.

And when I asked dr Costa why we shouldn't therefore understand Paul in the same way.

He said well, it has to do with the otherworldly context of the eschatological final judgment.

I've yet to see any reason for thinking why that justifies.

Gives no indication that he means something other than what was meant in Isaiah 66.

Why we should nevertheless and understand Paul to be speaking about something.

It's okay to take also.

He also argued in his rebuttal about shame and yet as he admitted in

cross -examination the corpses in Isaiah King shame

but explicitly in that language and in fact the word translated abhorrence or contemptible

is Used in only one other place and that's Daniel 12 to where only that this contempt

this tune that the righteous has

eternal.

Oh, he quoted it as if it said the shame was eternal as well.

But it's not the shame the emotion that the wicked experience is not eternal and that's and that's interesting.

But the point regarding Daniel 12 to as we discussed only the righteous are there said to receive eternal life and yet dr

Kosta believes that the Risen Wicked will live forever, too.

Dr. Kosta a number of times quoted his view even though I demonstrated

that Matthew 18 89 and Jude 7 and the Qumran scroll I'll use the language to refer

being slain not to being immortal and living forever in fire.

And so I found it a little bizarre that he used the phrase as if it supported his view.

Scroll uses the phrase of air that makes the wicked extinct.

That many Jews believe that the real

wanted wants to press us in that

wants to press me into saying that Jesus

Acknowledging that I pointed out.

I don't even I don't agree in the first place off the claims.

And so the fact is irrelevant

unless even for thinking so

well, there's only two reasons for thinking to see this.

Why that's the standard and therefore?

Meanwhile, I pointed out that dr. Instone Brewer points out in his article in my book of consuming passion

again Dr. Instone Brewer is an expert on the intertest mental literature and Second Temple Judaism.

He points out that in fact most Jews of that time including the rabbinical school

action not Immortality and eternal life in hell as dr Kosta believes so I'm happy to

Remaining 30 seconds and

one which

by many traditional at

the idea that claim to make

since emotions haven't been a part of anything I've said I agree.

Let's let's create in no way supports dr. Kosta's view.

Thank you.

Dr. Kosta.

You now have seven minutes for a final Statement.

Thank you very much.

I think that this debate as well comes back to the question of a world view and where.

And now my reference to emotions was not directed at Chris stated.

It's that it becomes an emotional issue for many people especially those who think that the idea of internal conscious

punishment Somehow smears thought as a cosmic tyrant and so forth.

So that was not directly aimed at Chris.

But of what I would say is that the biblical view of the human at the biblical Anthropological view of the human is that the

human being is made in God's image that the human being is a composite thing.

It's not just material as Chris holds it as a physicalist that man is just physical.

I believe that man is is both physical and spiritual made in the image of God and I think it's very clear from

the Old Testament that The departed those who died went to shelter with the belief in an afterlife that the person

just they continue to exist.

Now the other issue that we need to understand is as we move to the Old Testament.

We have progressive revelation.

Isaiah 26 points out that God's people will live again.

He looks at the wicked as those who will not live as I demonstrated in my cross -examination with Chris.

The the main passage that clearly speaks of a resurrection of the just and the unjust is Daniel 12

and verse 2.

And now of course, he looks at the word everlasting contempt and he says well.

The only other word that that appears is in Isaiah 6 but again the

resurrection to those who are raised to eternal life and of

course eternal life is the qualitative life that we have in relationship with.

God and.

The ones who are raised to eternal contempt are those obviously who are outside of that life with God.

And so I think what Chris is doing is he's collapsing Isaiah 6 to 6 24 with Daniel 12 to Isaiah 6 to 6

24.

In fact is actually a picture of a battle scene where the dead are are exposed to to the to the

elements.

And their bodies are being ravaged by maggots and so forth and so on.

That imagery is what created the ideology in the Intertestinal spirit about those who did believe in eternal

punishment to use the phrases like that.

No worm that does not die in the fire that is not quenched.

Obviously when bodies are completely consumed the maggots disappear the worms are gone when the fire has done its

job.

The fire is gone.

But it's described there is unquenchable and a worm that does not die and this was later adapted by the Lord Jesus Christ

Described the horror of those who reject God.

I think that the idea of self -conscious torment also underscores the fact that God's

justice will prevail at the end.

That the language of being taken away from the presence of God is The language of outer darkness

the language of gnashing of teeth.

It's the language of unquenchable fire.

It's the language of the undying worm.

These are these are expressions human expressions to describe the utter horror of being separated from God.

Now Chris pointed out that second test bones the nine does not talk about Being this idea of being separated or shut out

from the presence of the Lord and yet many translations translated that way by many competent Greek and Testament scholars.

And so the issue here is that Chris has to explain why it is that a number of translators

Have translated that way and that's because the preposition apple from does denote this idea of expulsion from

the presence of the Lord.

Now remember I brought Matthew 25 41 and 46 into the cursed ones into

the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels and.

This language of departure and away from the presence of the Lord is later seen in the book Revelation.

Where they are sent into the lake of fire where the devil and false prophet and the beast are.

Let me make the point clear that for 2 ,000 years the church has in its History

it has primarily held the Phillip Schaap has said that it has held to eternal punishment.

It has been the view of the church.

He says it was held by the Jews at the time of Christ with the exception of the Sadducees who denied the resurrection

origin in five in origin third century a church father.

It was the first to question the whole idea of eternal punishment origin.

Suggested that there would be actually a what he called an apocatastasis a reconciliation a

restitution of all things which led him to teach universalism.

And the Council of Constantinople the second Council of Constantinople in 553 AD

condemned him as a heretic and they also condemned the teachings of Arnobius who taught

annihilationism and conditional mortality.

Which is the view that Chris states holds.

I know he denies the word annihilationism.

But I can understand how the person who exists and then is slain and taken out that cannot mean

anything but annihilationism.

We also know that this view was also held by later heretics like the Sassanians and today's held by

Jehovah's Witnesses and Christadelphians and and Seventh -day Adventists.

I think it's important for us to understand there's a reason why the church held to this view and why it has been the dominant view

in both the Roman Catholic Orthodox churches and the Protestant churches and the reformers themselves affirmed

us in their confession as the Westminster Confession the Oxford Confession and so forth and.

So I think that if you look at the passages We looked at very clearly read them at face value

and ask the Lord to guide you in the reading of his word.

I think it's pretty clear that after 2546 when it says that the righteous go into eternal life and

The others the but the ghosts go into eternal punishment.

I think it's very clear that the destinations of both these parties are both eternal.

You have to read into the text the idea of conditionally mortality.

And I think the fact that the church has rejected this historically.

I think the fact that the church continues to reject this even though there are some like Chris Date has

has is not alone in this we've had John Stott.

But then we've got Clark Bennett who then veered off into the heresy of open theism and also to the point that he

believed in post -mortem Evangelism and so what I think the death of Christ says to us is this

it took the most pressure the most perfect thing.

To take the place of sinners on the cross of Calvary not to just die so that he could just

take away Physical death, but he came to remove Spiritual death our separation from God

and in the cross of Calvary he bore the awful wrath of God in our place and the awful wrath of

God is seen in the last book of the Bible where People whose names are not written in the book of life are cast

out into the lake of fire and they are forever Removed from the presence of God himself.

And so the preaching of this place Vienna hell Jesus Christ preached

on this more than he preached on the subject of heaven and that's because it's real sinners go there

by divine judgment and Christ Jesus paid the one penalty that would save us

from Satan sin.

Separation from God.

And we're out of time.

And we're out of time.

We have time for one question for each of you and then I want to invite you back.

Both of you to just have a full two hours of answering audience questions.

The first query.

The first question is from John and Bangor, Maine.

For Tony Costa if the Bible teaches that the eternal

punishment is That some will have few stripes and some will have many.

How on earth could few stripes possibly mean?

Eternal conscious torment

degrees of punishment and can vary from.

You go up to somebody on the street and punch in the face You're gonna probably get some time for assault.

But if you go up to the president of the United States and punch the president United States in the face

You're gonna get a.

I believe that in hell Jesus spoke about it'll be more tolerable for some cities than for others.

I believe that there are degrees of punishment in hell.

And Chris did you want to respond?

I'll just add that I believe in degrees of punishment as well.

It's a it's a common any

content within our view, but we'll save that for the next

time we come on.

We have Gary in Southbridge, Massachusetts who has a question for Chris date.

And the question is if Necromancy is a sin condemned in the Old

Testament.

How on earth could these people not be conscious who have died?

I'm not here to defend my view of physiconstrated Irenaeus

of Lyon who was well before Arnobius who by the way.

It's a fault.

It's false.

It aren't Rome Ignatius of

Antioch.

All of these fathers taught my view.

And several of them if not, all of them were dual at intermediate state.

So I'm just gonna let that question and Tony Costa your

response.

Yeah, I would say that the very fact that necromancy existed in Israel Suggestion shows that

the Hebrews did believe that their loved ones or the departed were still conscious.

Well, why otherwise like try to communicate with them?

You see in 1st Samuel 28 how Saul King Paul goes to the witch of Endor and we're told that

From from shows he knew Saul.

Excuse me.

Samuel.

The Prophet Samuel was was brought up from show.

He knew King Saul and even predicted and prophesied his death and that he would join them in Sheol as well and

so the fact that Jesus when he appeared after his resurrection were told in in Matthew.

Excuse me, Luke chapter 24. I believe was verse 39 or 37.

It says when they saw him they were terrified and they thought that they saw spirit or a ghost Numa and so this

shows us that first century Jews like the Apostles of Jesus did Believe that the soul did survive the death of the

body and therefore they were dualists and not.

And if you could Tony Costa Chris state has already given his contact information if you could provide any contact

information you care to share.

Yes, my email he and Tom and as in Michael

Susan Christie Rogers comm.

They could also follow my videos on YouTube.

They're called the third degree.

Third degree, I just put my name Tony Costa third degree on YouTube and you'll see that.

And I'm also on Twitter.

At.

The MC OS underscore Tony.

All right.

Thank you both of you so much.

I want to thank everybody who listened and Stay tuned or keep your ears and eyes open for

our third Edition of this debate where we are only be taking questions from our listeners at an

undetermined date.

So I want to remember I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior

than you are a sinner.