October 9, 2019 Show with Dr. Tony Costa and Chris Date Debating “Eternal Conscious Punishment vs. Conditional Immortality” (Part 2)

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this ninth day of October 2019, and today is part two of the debate that we began yesterday on the theme,

Eternal Conscious Punishment versus Conditional Immortality. Our debaters, once again, are

Dr. Tony Costa, who is an advocate of eternal conscious punishment.

That sounds like kind of a strange thing to say, that you're an advocate of eternal conscious punishment, but he believes that this is a biblical truth, and he is professor of apologetics in Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary in Toronto, Canada, and our other debater today is

Chris Date, who is a conditional immortality advocate, and he is host of the

Theopologetics podcast and co -editor of Rethinking Hell and Consuming Passion, and a

Consuming Passion. And the sub -theme that we are debating today, or that our two debaters are debating today, is

Is Conscious Torment of the Damned Eternal? Is Conscious Torment of the

Damned Eternal? And we are going to begin the debate, or part two of the debate, with Chris Date once again giving opening remarks, lasting ten minutes.

Chris, if you will. Yesterday I demonstrated that the Bible consistently teaches that the resurrection bodies of only the saved will be made immortal, contrary to the doctrine of eternal torment.

Despite this clear and consistent message, my brother in Christ and friend, Dr. Costa, said in his rebuttal what virtually all believers in eternal torment say, and must say, in order to defend belief that the resurrection bodies of the damned will be immortal as well.

Namely, he said that a handful of texts seem to teach that the resurrected lost will suffer torment forever in hell, requiring that they will be immortal, despite the reams of biblical evidence to the contrary.

Now, of course, I could just flip Dr. Costa's argument around and say the reams of biblical evidence indicating that only the resurrected saved will be made immortal require that we understand

Dr. Costa's proof text differently than he does, but I won't do that. And here's why.

What convinced me to abandon belief in eternal torment more than anything else was that with virtually no exception, every single proof text historically cited in support of eternal torment proves, upon closer examination, to be better support for conditional immortality.

And so I'm happy to demonstrate now, in my opening, that the handful of texts Dr. Costa thinks prove his view do nothing of the sort, and that they prove instead that the resurrected lost will literally die a second time and forever, rather than be made immortal and live forever in hell.

I'll start with what we conditionalists affectionately call the big three, that is, the three texts most commonly cited in support of eternal torment.

First, Matthew 25, 41 -46. Everything about this passage supports conditional immortality and works against eternal torment.

The phrase, eternal fire, in verse 41, was used earlier by Jesus in Matthew 18, 8, and 9, where it is paralleled to Gehenna, the

New Testament Greek transliteration of the Old Testament Valley of the Temple of Edom. God says in Jeremiah 7, 32 -33 that this valley will one day be called the

Valley of Slaughter, because God's enemies will be slain and their bodies eaten up by scavenging beasts and birds.

This picture of death and destruction is the picture Jesus invokes when he speaks of Gehenna, and therefore when he speaks of eternal fire.

After all, that's how eternal fire is used in intertestamental literature, like Qumran's Community Rule, which says the wicked will be sentenced to the gloom of everlasting fire, to a shameful extinction in the fire of hell's outer darkness, utter destruction with neither remnant nor rescue.

And Jude uses eternal fire to describe the fire that came down from heaven and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. So when

Jesus says in Matthew 25, 46 that the wicked will go into eternal punishment, we already have a sense of what that punishment is, death by eternal fire, the likes of which destroyed

Sodom and Gomorrah. The Greek word translated punishment can refer to capital punishment, as it does in 2

Maccabees 4, 38, in which Antiochus executes the murderer Andronicus, and, quote, the

Lord thus repaid him with the punishment he deserved. And in Matthew 25, 46, eternal punishment is the alternative to eternal life, so the punishment must be death.

If the punishment for sin is death, the cessation and ongoing cremation of life, and if an executed sinner's lifelessness lasts forever, his punishment is as eternal as the life of the saved.

So Matthew 25, 41 to 46 does not teach that the wicked will be tormented forever, it teaches that they will be killed and never live again.

The second of the big three is Revelation 14, 9 to 11. Here, drawn up, John's apocalyptic vision features at least three symbols to describe the fate of the wicked, drinking

God's wrath, tormenting fire and brimstone, and smoke rising from torment forever. But all three of these symbols are used later in the very same book and vision in Revelation 18 and 19, where the harlot

Mystery Babylon is made to drink, she's tormented in fire and brimstone, and smoke rises from her forever. But in Revelation 18, 21, an angel interprets this imagery for John, saying that it symbolizes that Babylon the

Great will be thrown down with violence and will be found no more. Now, we 21st century

Westerners might not understand why this imagery can symbolize destruction, but that is how John's original readers would have understood it.

After all, this imagery comes from the Old Testament, such as Genesis 19, in which Abraham sees smoke rising from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and in Isaiah 34, 10, where smoke rises forever from the destruction of the city of Edom.

So Revelation 14, 9 to 11 does not teach that the wicked will be tormented forever. It teaches that they will be killed, destroyed.

The third of the big three is Revelation 20, 10 to 15, and there's so much I could say about this text in demonstrating that it supports conditional immortality, but I'll say just two things for now.

First, it is not only the devil, beast, false prophet, and unsaved humans who are thrown into the lake of fire. Death and Hades are thrown into it as well, symbolizing what

God says just a few verses later in Revelation 21, 4. Hathanathas ukethai eti.

Death shall be no more. The lake of fire thus symbolizes destruction when it comes to death and Hades, who are depicted in the vision as conscious entities, the horsemen of the apocalypse.

We should thus expect the imagery to symbolize destruction when it comes to all the conscious entities John sees thrown into the lake of fire.

Second, John and God interpret the lake of fire imagery in 2014 and 21, 8, saying it symbolizes the second death.

Consistent with vision interpretation throughout Scripture, going as far back as Joseph in Egypt, symbolic visions are perplexing and mysterious, but their interpretation is delivered in plain, straightforward language.

So as the interpretation of the perplexing imagery, second death is straightforward in meaning. The risen wicked, having died a first time and come back to life, will now die a second time, contrary to the doctrine of eternal torment, which says the risen wicked will be made immortal and will never die.

Now I'll turn away from the Big Three and look at a few other texts taught by some to teach eternal torment. In Mark 9, 48,

Jesus says that in Gehenna their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched, but this does not refer to living immortals forever providing food and fuel to worms and fire.

Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66, 24, which says it is the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against God whose worms shall not die and whose fire shall not be quenched.

Like the scavenging beasts and birds in Jeremiah 7, 33, who will completely consume the corpses of God's enemies because they can't be frightened away, so too the maggot here won't be prevented by death from fully consuming corpses.

Similarly, because the fiery wrath of God is unquenchable in texts like Ezekiel 20, 47 to 48,

Jeremiah 17, 27, and Amos 5, 6, in those places this unquenchable fire is said to completely burn things up.

And that's the point of fire that can't be quenched. You see, to quench does not mean to die out, it means to put out, and a fire that can't be put out completely burns things up.

So Mark 9, 48 does not support eternal torment, it supports conditional immortality according to which the damned will be killed and destroyed.

Now Dr. Costa mentioned Daniel 12, 2 yesterday, which says the righteous will rise to everlasting life and the wicked to shame and everlasting contempt.

Notice, only the righteous receive everlasting life, the risen wicked therefore can't be made immortal and live forever, as Dr.

Costa believes they will. Besides, everlasting contempt doesn't refer to the wicked feeling contempt forever.

The only other place the Hebrew word translated contempt is used, dehahon, is used in Isaiah 66, 24, where it describes the corpses of God's enemies as an abhorrence to the still living righteous.

That is the picture painted by Daniel 12, 2. The wicked will be raised, shamed, destroyed, and remembered forever in contempt.

Believers in eternal torment sometimes cite 2 Thessalonians 1, 9 in which some translations say the wicked will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction away from the presence of the

Lord. Unfortunately, this poor translation, away from, leads some to think the picture here is of the wicked being shut out from God's presence, as even some translations render it, and they're tormented forever, when in fact the preposition apa just means from, and here it makes the presence of God the cause of the wicked's eternal destruction.

Indeed, in verse 8, Paul mentions flaming fire and inflicting vengeance, a combination of terms found in only one other place in scripture,

Isaiah 66, 15, a scene in which God's enemies are slain. So eternal destruction is being killed forever, not being made immortal and living forever in hell, as Dr.

Costa believes. Interestingly, Dr. Costa cited Matthew 10, 28 in his rebuttal yesterday, in which

Jesus indicates that whereas men can kill the body, but not the soul, God will destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

In cross -examination yesterday, Dr. Costa admitted that in the Synoptic Gospels, when the Greek word apolimi, here translated destroy, is used in the way it's used here in Matthew 10, 28, it means to slay or kill.

So Jesus is here saying God will slay both the bodies and souls of the wicked in hell, not make them immortal so they can live forever, as Dr.

Costa believes. I'll offer one brief theological argument before I close to supplement my exegetical case.

The doctrine of substitutionary atonement means that Jesus suffered what we deserve for our sin in our place.

What did Jesus suffer? Death. He died, literally. The wages of sin is death, and because Jesus bore that fate in our place, we will instead one day live.

The wicked, then, must ultimately suffer death for their sin, not be made immortal so they can live forever, as Dr.

Costa believes. So Matthew 25, 41 to 46, Revelation 14, 9 to 11,

Revelation 20, 10 to 15, Mark 9, 48, Isaiah 66, 24, Daniel 12, 2, and 2

Thessalonians 1, 9 all positively teach the same thing as Matthew 10, 28. In hell, the resurrected wicked will not be made immortal and live forever.

They will die, never to live again. That's why Jesus died for his people, to suffer the fate we deserve, so that we will one day be raised from death and live forever.

Thank you. Thank you, Chris. And now, Dr. Tony Costa will begin with his 10 -minute opening remarks.

Thank you very much, Chris. And again, thank you, Chris State, for joining this debate and being with us again on this second day.

So I'm going to defend the thesis, is conscious torment of the damned eternal?

I'm going to be defending it in the affirmative, and I think that we need to begin by first establishing that I agree with Chris State, that the rule of authority here should be the

Scriptures, sola scriptura, Scripture alone, but not just sola scriptura, but tota scriptura.

It's not just one portion of Scripture says, but also what all of Scripture says. It's also important to maintain here that the hermeneutical method that the

Lord Jesus Christ taught his disciples, the method to interpret the Old Testament is to interpret through the

New Testament, that is to say, through Christological lenses. Not to interpret the New Testament by the

Old, but to look at the Old Testament through the eyes of Jesus Christ, where he is presented therein. We also must not ignore the fact that, whereas there are shadows and types in the

Old Testament, the New Testament has the fulfillment of those types and shadows.

Also, the Old Testament, we need to remember, for the most part, is this -worldly. It addresses issues pertaining to this world, and living long in the land, so that it is, in a sense, geocentric.

Not to say that there's nothing that speaks of the New Heavens and the New Earth, there certainly is in Isaiah 65 and 66, but the

Old Testament focuses mostly on the here and now, whereas the New Testament looks forward to the

Kingdom of God coming on Earth, and the New Heavens and the New Earth, and the New Jerusalem, and so forth. Another point,

I think, that must be established is that we need to maintain the reality of progressive revelation, that is to say, that God progressively reveals things to us through Scripture.

We don't find everything revealed in the book of Genesis, or in 1 Samuel, or Isaiah. We need to look at the whole counsel of God as he has revealed it, and also understand that the development of theology also took place during the

Second Temple Jewish period, sometimes called the Intertestamental period, which is a part of it. And then, of course, into the

New Testament. What we do see is that, from the Old Testament, we do see passages that speak about the damnation of the lost, and I truly believe that Daniel 12 -2 does make reference to that,

Isaiah 66 -24 also alludes to that. But then that develops into the Intertestament period, we see that in 2

Maccabees, in 4 Maccabees, in the book of Judas, in various Intertestamental writings that clearly speak about eternal torment, eternal conscious torment, the first book of Enoch, and so forth.

And I believe that in the New Testament, we come into a world where this is clearly taught and assumed.

Most Jews, according to many scholars of the 1st century and 2nd Temple Judaism, believed in eternal conscious punishment.

They did believe that the damned would be judged in the next life. The Jews believed in the

Olam Chabah, that is, the world, the this world, and the Olam Chabah, the world that is to come.

Let me rephrase that, sorry. The Olam Chazeh is this world, and the

Olam Chabah is the world that is to come. We also know from Josephus that the Pharisees and the

Essenes also believed in the eternal punishment of the wicked. Josephus was a

Pharisee himself, and the Apostle Paul also was a Pharisee, and it's interesting that in Jesus' disputes with the

Pharisees, he never disputed the issue of eternal punishment or eternal conscious torment. The only thing that he disputed with them was issues over the

Torah, his identity, issues concerning the Sabbath, tradition of the elders, and so we never see any dispute whatsoever other than with the

Sadducees' denied resurrection of the dead. And again, I think it's important that we understand that the biblical context speaks about an honor -shame paradigm.

The honor -shame paradigm has a lot to say about the faith of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

The unrighteous would face eternal shame and contempt. The righteous would have honor from God and justification and so forth.

Now, the passages that I'm going to also use to support my contention is the ones that Chris also used, but from a different angle.

In Mark 9, Jesus points out that if your hand caused you to sin, cut it off. It's better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell through the unquenchable fire.

He goes on to mention that if your foot caused you to sin, cut it off, it's better for you to enter into life acclaimed than with two feet to be thrown into hell.

Of course, the word hell, there's Gehenna. And if your eye caused you to sin, tear it out, it's better for you to enter the Kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into Gehenna where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

And the Jews of Jesus' day and the Pharisees as well understood these terms, taken from Isaiah 66, 24, to refer to the eternal punishment of the wicked.

And there's nothing said here about cessation of existence or going out of existence, as my friend

Chris maintains. The final judgment came in Matthew 25, where Jesus compares himself to a shepherd who comes to separate the goats from the sheep.

It's very clear there are two parties here. There's the sheep, from which he says, come and inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

And then he turns to those on his left and he says, depart from me, you cursed into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

And then in verse 46 of Matthew 25, and these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

You will notice in verse 41, Jesus says, depart from me. This is spatial distancing. This is the punishment away from the presence of Christ.

We see that also in Matthew 7, where he says, depart from me, you workers of iniquity, I never knew you. And then he sends them forth into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

In verse 46, the reference to eternal punishment is used interchangeably with fire. Remember, fire is used as a sign of God's judgment throughout the

Old Testament. And so here it is used interchangeably so that the eternal fire and the eternal punishment are synonymous and the righteous go into eternal life.

It's also important to realize that both adjectives are the same here. Ionia, they are both eternal states.

And this has always been understood throughout church history to refer to two eternal states, or as I put it, there's only two places, the smoking section and the non -smoking section.

And so in 2 Thessalonians chapter 1, 5 -10, the apostle Paul tells the Thessalonians about the wicked in verse 9, that they will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction away from the presence of the

Lord. We saw that in Matthew 25, depart from me, indicating a moving away from the presence of the risen

Christ. And Paul goes on to say that they will experience eternal punishment away from the presence of the

Lord and from the glory of his might. And so here in this one verse, we notice that this destruction is described as eternal.

This does not have, my friend Chris would argue that this has eternal consequences. I see this as a state that they will experience and that they will be away from the presence of the

Lord. The same thing in the book of Revelation 21 -22, where those outside the city are the dogs.

Notice they're outside of the presence of God in the New Jerusalem. Revelation, again, 14, 9 -11, if anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he will drink the wine of God's wrath, pour full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the

Lamb. The judgment being portrayed here. This torment is described in verse 11 as the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest day or night.

Throughout the book of Revelation, the word aionios, the word forever, never appears 13 times, and in each instance it means forever and ever, that is, eternally.

And so notice as well that the saved experience rest, but the unsaved, the damned experience unrest or torment.

And this can only mean conscious torment. There's nothing in this passage to indicate that this is a terminal act where they're simply snuffed out of existence or annihilated.

In Revelation 20, verse 10, the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were.

In 1920, we're told at Armageddon that the beast and the false prophet would be thrown into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

And here, the devil is now thrown after the millennium, the thousand -year reign of Christ, he's thrown there.

The beast and the false prophet are still there, and they will be tormented night and day, forever and ever.

That phrase, night and day, is used in the book of Revelation to denote continuous time. And then

Revelation 20, verses 14 to 15, then death and Hades were thrown to the lake of fire.

This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone's name was not downwritten in the book of life, he was thrown in the lake of fire.

And so this comports with what we read in Matthew 25, that unsaved men and women, unsaved humanity, goes to the same place as the devil and his angels.

And here, in Revelation 20, verses 14 to 15, we find a confirmation of that fact, that the wicked, those who do not have their name written in the book of life, are thrown into the lake of fire in the very same place where the devil and the false prophet, the beast, and, of course, his angels are.

So I believe that these texts show that there is a conscious torment that goes on here, and that this conscious torment is described as Ionios from forever and ever, day and night, they have no rest.

And so, our emotions aside, we have to subscribe to what

God has revealed in His Word, and it seems clear to me, from Old Testament through New Testament, I hold to the dichotomous view that man is not just material, that he's not just a physicist.

I'm not a physicist, like, as my friend, my good friend Chris Day does. I'm a dichotomist. I believe that humans have both a soul and a body, a soul that survives death, and I believe that they're conscious after death, and they remain conscious even after the resurrection.

Their bodies are not described explicitly as immortal, but it's very clear that they do continue to exist, even in the lake of fire, away from the presence of God.

Thank you very much. Well, thank you, Tony, and we are going to our first station break. When we return from our station break, we will be continuing the debate with a different phase or session, where Chris Date will have seven minutes to rebut the opening statements of Tony Acosta, and that will be followed by Tony Acosta's seven -minute rebuttal of Chris Date's opening statements.

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Because Solid Ground Christian Books is one of our primary sponsors, they even tripled their advertising budget on this program since they first began advertising with us, not only because they love this program and want it to remain on the air, but because they've been getting such a great response from you, the listeners.

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please do so. And remember to always mention to them that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

We are now back with our debate. This is a debate between an advocate of conditional immortality,

Chris Date, and an advocate of eternal conscious punishment, who is

Dr. Tony Costa. And now is the session during this debate, where our two debaters are offering their rebuttals to the opening statements that you heard.

And we are going to begin with a seven -minute rebuttal by Chris Date. Remember what

I said in the beginning of my opening. Dr. Costa's argument is that a handful of texts require that we believe the resurrected wicked will be immortal and live forever, despite the reams of Biblical evidence indicating that only the saved will be made immortal and live forever.

But as you've just heard, the very same texts Dr. Costa has in mind are the ones I exegeted as positive evidence in support of my view.

This should cause listeners to be skeptical of Dr. Costa's argument that these texts justify believing the resurrected wicked will be made immortal, when so many other texts indicate they will not.

That having been said, as for Dr. Costa's case, he began by saying that we shouldn't interpret the New Testament through the lens of the

Old, but rather the other way around. And I don't dispute this. But when the New Testament does not elaborate on the language of the

Old, when it just uses language and idioms and symbols that appeared in the Old and don't elaborate on them to give an indication that they mean something fundamentally different from what they meant in the

Old Testament, we can't impose our 21st century Western English minds and readings upon those texts.

We have to let the New Testament authors use the language as they would have understood that language, which they would have gotten from the

Old Testament. Dr. Costa also said that the Old Testament is primarily this -worldly, not next -worldly.

That may be true, but hell is on Earth. The resurrection is to Earth.

It's on Earth, and it's there that the wicked will be finally destroyed. There is a new heavens and a new

Earth, but it's not as if this is some other place in the cosmos, some other dimension or anything.

It's this dimension, but glorified and made perfect. So that point really doesn't have any merit to it.

Now, when it comes to the actual text, he touched on two Old Testament passages. First, Daniel 12 .2.

And as I pointed out, this text says that only the righteous are going to receive eternal life. When it comes to the wicked,

Dr. Costa misquoted Daniel 12 .2 a little bit later in his opening, and said that it speaks of eternal shame and contempt.

That's false. It speaks of shame and eternal contempt. Now, this is important because Dr.

Costa's right, this was an honor -shame culture, and shame is the experience, the emotion felt by the one who is shameful.

But that's not what contempt is. Contempt is an experience felt by the ones who are hold of the wicked in contempt.

It's the experience, as I pointed out in Isaiah 66 .24, it's the emotion that the righteous feel when they look at the corpses of God's slain enemies that are contemptible or an abhorrence to all mankind.

So yes, they are held forever in contempt the way we might remember Hitler in contempt.

But it does not follow that they will live forever and be immortal. In fact, as I've already pointed out, Daniel 12 .2

says only the righteous will rise unto eternal life. As for the intertestamental literature,

Dr. Costa is perpetuating a fairly old and now outdated and proven debunked view, namely that the intertestamental literature is primarily one that attests to the doctrine of eternal torment.

That is false. That's actually not true. The reality is that that literature contains a diversity of views.

For example, Edward Fudge in his The Fire That Consumes, he writes, there's no question that eternal torment is very ancient and that it finds expression in some parts of the

Jewish intertestamental literature. But the literature of Second Temple Judaism also documents the continuation of the view we found throughout the

Old Testament, the expectation of a future day when the wicked will be slain, will cease to be. In fact,

Strack and Billerbeck, leading authorities on Jewish rabbinical literature, suggest that whenever the pseudepigrapher speaks of eternal punishment, it may intend for the phrase to mean everlasting annihilation.

I quoted the community rule from the first Qumran scroll in my opening, which says, which sounds at first like it's eternal torment.

It says the judgment of all who walk in such ways will be afflictions at the hand of the angels of perdition, everlasting damnation, and the wrath of God's furious vengeance, and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

But then it says, with a shameful extinction in the fire of hell's outer darkness, for all their eras, generation by generation, they will know doleful sorrow, bitter evil, and dark happenstance until their utter destruction, with neither remnant nor rescue.

Dr. David and Stone Brewer, in his contribution to the Festschrift of Consuming Passion that I edited, he closes his contribution, he's an expert on intertestamental literature, incidentally, and he points out that no one in Jesus' generation, as far as we know, was asking what hell was like or where it was or what kind of punishment occurred there.

They were all agreed that it was characterized by fire and darkness, with pain and torment and eventual destruction.

Contemporaries of the rabbis tended to emphasize the eternal consequences of hell more than others in order to counter the idea that someone could visit hell for a short punishment.

You see, the literature between the Testaments is, first of all, not unifical. It is not attested primarily to eternal torment.

It actually contains a diversity of views, and arguably, the bulk of those views are the view that I have, which is that the wicked will finally die, not be made immortal and live forever.

In fact, that's how the phrase second death is used throughout the intertestamental literature, to refer to the wicked either not rising at all, or rising and then literally dying again.

So the intertestamental literature provides no support for—I shouldn't say no support, it provides little support for Dr.

Costa's view. As for the Pharisees, yes, he says in one passage— sorry,

Josephus says about the Pharisees in one passage that they believed in eternal torment, but he's also there—what he's saying there is, we can be skeptical about what he says there, because one person saying what the

Pharisees believe does not prove that he's right about it all, and he's trying to make—he's trying to appeal to Greeks, to pagan

Greeks in that passage, who already believed in the immortality of the soul, and he may very well have just been trying to make the

Pharisees be more palatable to them. In any event, when it comes to the New Testament, Dr. Costa quoted a number of texts that I've already exegeted in my opening, so I'll just mention some that he did not.

Mark 9 43 does say—Jesus does say you don't want to go with two hands into the unquenchable fire, but again, unquenchable fire is fire that can't be put out and so completely destroyed.

In fact, that's how it's used in Matthew 3 12 and Matthew 13 30, in which unquenchable fire causes—it katakaios the things that are thrown into it.

Katakaios is a Greek word that doesn't mean just to burn, it means to completely burn up. So unquenchable fire doesn't support

Dr. Costa's view, it works against it. He pointed out that Matthew 25 41 to 46 uses the part for me, and he called that spatial distancing, and yet then he went on to quote

Revelation 14 9 to 11, where it says they'll be formatted in the presence of a lamb. I don't—it's just interesting the argument that he's trying to make there, which seems pretty self -contradictory.

Much more could be said about his case. The thing I want to emphasize is just that the vast majority of the texts Dr. Costa cited are ones that I cited in my opening, because they teach the final destruction of the wicked.

Thank you. Thank you, Chris Date, and now we will hear a seven -minute rebuttal from Dr.

Tony Costa, who is rebutting Chris Date's opening statements, and once again,

Tony Costa is an advocate of eternal conscious torment or punishment, and if you will,

Tony, you can begin. Yes, thank you very much. The point I think that also has to be stressed in this debate is that nowhere in the

New Testament or the Old Testament do we see the notion that things that are destroyed simply are snuffed out of existence or annihilated, and I think the problem here is that—I know

Chris yesterday said that he doesn't use the word annihilation, but that is exactly what it is at the end, that the person is destroyed or killed or snuffed out, or they're brought to nothing, and therefore they no longer exist.

The words to destroy, to kill, do not logically mean that you are making something non -existent.

The other thing I also mentioned about Matthew 25, 41 -46, when I talked about the spatial distancing of departing from the presence of Christ, of course that's why

I said in Revelation 14, 9 -11, we have a court scene there, that is the judgment scene, where they're being punished in the presence of the

Lamb and the holy angels who are acting as witnesses against them. But 2 Thessalonians 1, 9 also says that they are shut out there, shut out away from the

Lord, from the presence of the Lord, into eternal destruction. The other thing that is important to note here is that when

I was mentioning the New Testament, explaining the Old Testament, what I was pointing out here was that the

New Testament does emphasize an otherworldly position. The Old Testament, for the most part, is about the land, living long in the land, and yes, the prophet's visit forward to the time the

Messiah would come and God would create a new heaven and a new earth, but it's important to realize that many of the types and the shadows that were used in the

Old Testament are expanded in the New Testament. For example, in Mark 9, 42 -43 and following, where Jesus talks about the worm not dying and the fire not being quenched, he's referring to Isaiah 66 -24.

But Isaiah 66 -24, as acknowledged by a number of Old Testament scholars like Daniel Block, J.

N. Oswald, J. Mortier, D. S. Charles, they point out that the background to that picture there is a background of a battle scene, and people going to the

Temple, worshiping the Lord every Sabbath, every new moon from Sabbath to Sabbath, new moon in the

Temple, and then they would walk out and see those whom the Lord had destroyed. Daniel Block points out in his book, in the book that he's one of the contributors,

Hell Under Fire, page 65, he says, prior to Daniel 12 -2, we find no clear evidence of belief in Hell.

If by Hell we mean a place of eternal torment and judgment to the wicked, it would be left to later revelation in the

New Testament to develop this image. When the doctrine of Hell develops in the New Testament, it borrows much of its imagery from the

Old Testament, particularly the images of perpetual suffering through maggots and unquenchable fire in Isaiah 66 -24.

And so I think it's important to realize that we understand that when Jesus speaks about this place of punishment, of conscious eternal punishment, he's borrowing the imagery from the

Old Testament. Now, Josephus, he said, he did say that Pharisees believed in eternal punishment and the survival of the soul after death.

Josephus himself was a Pharisee, and so I don't see why Josephus would be disingenuous there on that particular point, that the

Apostle Paul was a Pharisee. You'll notice Chris did not address the point that Jesus never entered into any disputes with the religious leaders of his day with the

Pharisees about the subject of eternal punishment, or commissioning mortality for that matter.

It seems to be a given that, as scholars have noted, the Jews of the 21st century and others note that most

Jews believed in eternal punishment, eternal conscious punishment, and life after death. And the schools of Shammai and Halal, which were the two main schools of Jesus' day, also subscribe to eternal conscious punishment.

It's also important to understand that in the Old Testament world, the Hebrews were not physicalists, as the position that Chris Bate holds to.

The Jews believed that the soul, the spirit of the deceased went to Sheol. Everybody went to Sheol.

And they believed that there was a real existence, a spiritual place of shame, as it was known. And so the everlasting contempt that Daniel is speaking of, the only reason why

I brought in the word shame is I'm simply using the paradigm that is known in the engineering, including

Israel, of honor and shame. And what I'm trying to point out here is that contempt is something that does bring shame.

And even whether it's from the person who is shamed, or the ones who are looking upon that shame, it's still based on that paradigm of honor and shame in the ancient world.

So I don't take everlasting contempt in Daniel 12 to necessitate that the wicked simply died, or put out of existence, or annihilated.

The other point I'd like to mention is that the second death that Chris Bate makes mention of, he takes that as literal second death.

But in fact, the wicked actually really die three deaths. When you think about it, they're spiritually dead even now, away from God's grace, unless God regenerates them, they remain dead in their trespasses and sins.

And so the unbelievers are presently dead, and then they experience physical death.

But then the second death is that final separation from God's presence at the Great White Throne Judgment.

And that is why they are judged. Books are opened, they are judged, and they are cast into the lake of fire, where the devil and his angels, or also the false prophet and beast are.

And so the pattern here seems to be the same. So to say that I'm maintaining that the bodies of the wicked are immortal,

I've said before that the word immortality only appears three times in the Greek New Testament, and that it is applied to believers in 1

Corinthians 15. But the fact that the wicked do continue to exist as a unit of spirit body, as a composite entity, in the resurrection of the wicked,

I think is a well -established fact in Scripture. And that the consciousness of the wicked is something that they will experience, that torment that they will experience.

And that torment is separation from God. That the pain of the damned is to be separated from God's goodness, to be separated from his presence, that some of the

Church Fathers and the Reformers alluded to as the beatific vision of God, of seeing God, and so forth.

And therefore, I think that it's important to maintain that when the Bible does use language like destruction and eternal punishment and eternal fire,

Chris has yet to demonstrate that this demonstrates, or shows, that the persons or persons are taken out, that they simply cease to exist.

And so I think that is something that I don't think I've heard yet, either in today's debate or yesterday's debate.

And so the idea then that the wicked continue to suffer eternal torment, eternal conscious separation from God, I think is very well established in the

Scriptures, and I think that is why the Church, for most part of its history up until today, has maintained this position, both in the

Protestant... I'm sorry, we're out of time. ...confession. Thank you. And now we are going to our midway break.

This is the longer -than -normal break that we have because of Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida, who airs our program in a pre -recorded format twice daily.

They require of us a longer break in the middle because the FCC requires them to air public service announcements and other things that localize

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and the rest of their programming to Lake City, Florida. So while they air their own public service announcements and other local things during this break, we air our globally heard commercials.

And once again, I urge you please to write down as many of the... or as much of the information that is provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them.

Because keep in mind, folks, if you love this show, the only thing that's going to help us remain on the air is the donations of generous listeners like you and also our advertisers who spend very hard -earned money on these commercials that are aired during this program.

So please, obviously, the longer, or should I say, the more frequently you patronize our advertisers, the more likely we are going to remain on the air because our advertisers are more likely going to stick around and continue to support us financially.

So keep that in mind. And also during this break, write down questions that we will try to squeeze in at the end of this debate.

We will read as many of the questions that you offer as time will permit after the closing statements of our two debaters.

So we look forward to hearing from you and your questions for both Chris Date and Tony Costa at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with the second half of our debate on conditional immortality versus eternal conscious punishment.

Don't go away. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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Gary Kimbrell, pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Laurel, Mississippi. God tells us in James 127 that pure and undefiled religion is a visit to fatherless widows and their affliction.

In the providence of God three years ago, I discovered a poor small church outside Lusaka, Zambia in a township called

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In this season of hope and giving, will you consider giving hope to 24 orphans? Please send your gift of any amount to Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838

Reed Road, Laurel, Mississippi 39443, or donate through our website bbclaurel .com.

Again, the address is Bethlehem Baptist Church, 838 Reed Road, Laurel, Mississippi 39443, or bbclaurel .com.

Thank you. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

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It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Corham, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

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I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as I have.

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Tell the folks at Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

Chris Sorensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron radio here. I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years.

His name is Dan Buttafuoco. Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

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Dan Buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878. 1 -800 -669 -4878.

Or email me for Dan's contact information at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. I'm so grateful to our sovereign

God that while manning an exhibitor's booth for Iron Sharpens Iron at a major Bible conference, I providentially met

Pastor Andrew Smith of Christ Reformed Community Church just south of Jacksonville, Florida, right off I -95 in St.

Johns County. Andrew is certainly the kind of pastor that is a perfect match for my radio show, and has already proven to be an ideal guest.

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That's ChristReformedCC .com. Or call 904 -955 -9881.

That's 904 -955 -9881. Tell Pastor Andrew that you heard about them on Iron Trumpet's Iron Radio.

I'm Pastor Andrew Smith, and I'd like to urge you to consider joining Christ Reformed Community Church of St.

John's, Florida in financially supporting Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnson on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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make a long list of all the books that you want to order from Solid Ground Christian Books, and then go to cvbbs .com

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is a book distributor, and they carry all of Solid Ground Christian Books' titles. If they don't happen to have them in stock, they will order them for you.

So that's the way you can help both of our sponsors that are book -related at the same time. Before I return to our debate today on conditional immortality versus eternal conscious punishment, we have a couple of events that we want you to be aware of that we hope that you will attend.

One that I am going to be attending, God willing, is the Long Island Spurgeon Fellowship Conference, presenting the

Doctrines of Grace. This is going to be held November 1st and November 2nd at the

Hope Reformed Baptist Church of Quorum, Long Island, New York. And if you want more details on this conference, you can go to www .hopereformedli

.net or you can also go to www .reformedrookie .com and get all the information that you need.

Then, after that, I am going to once again attend the

Foundations Conference in New York City. This is a phenomenal conference, and it's for men in ministry leadership only.

One of the reasons for that is that the venue is very small. It can only seat less than 200 people.

So if you're a man in ministry leadership and you want to join me Thursday and Friday, December 19th and 20th in Manhattan, and what better place to be during the

Christmas season than in Manhattan, then please go to www .thefoundationsconference

.com. www .thefoundationsconference .com. The speakers include Stephen J. Lawson, Paul Washer, Jeff Thomas, Armin Tomasian, Richard Colwell Jr.,

and Andrew Quigley. Once again, that's www .thefoundationsconference .com, www .thefoundationsconference .com.

Then in January, I am going to be once again packing up my bags and heading down south to Atlanta, Georgia, more specifically

College Park, Georgia, to the Georgia International Convention Center, and that's where they hold the

G3 Conference, which stands for Gospel, Grace, and Glory. This January's theme is

Worship Matters, and once again that's Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th.

The lineup of speakers is always extraordinary, and this January is no exception.

They include once again Stephen J. Lawson. They include my friend Dr. James R.

White of Alpha Omega Ministries. They include my friend Phil Johnson, who has been interviewed on Iron Trump and Zion Radio more than any other guest in the history of this program.

He is the Executive Director of John McArthur's Media Ministry, grace to you. My friend Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio is on the roster.

Derek Thomas, the world -renowned Presbyterian author and pastor and conference speaker.

Dr. Tom Askell, who is the Executive Director of Founders Ministries, the Calvinistic ministry within the

Southern Baptist Convention. Stephen J. Nichols, the president of the Reformation Bible College, the college founded by the late

R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries. The aforementioned Kosti Hinn, the nephew of the notorious charlatan and heretic

Benny Hinn, and Kosti doesn't mind me saying that because he says that and more about his uncle, who he has renounced publicly as a heretic and charlatan, and more than that has repented of the word of faith heresies of his youth.

He is now a Reformed Baptist pastor and a cessationist. And as you have heard in a previous ad,

John McArthur himself has been added to the lineup and I am so excited about that. If you want to join me there in College Park, Georgia, Thursday, January 16th through Saturday, January 18th, go to g3conference .com,

g3conference .com. And remember, as I have been urging you, if you have a business, a parachurch ministry, a special event that you want to promote, anything that you want to promote to the body of Christ to a large number of people at the same time, well,

I would urge you not only to register to attend the G3 Conference, but register for an exhibitor's booth just like I have done.

This will be my fourth year in a row manning an exhibitor's booth for Iron Trip and Zion Radio and it's always,

I am not exaggerating, it's always an extraordinary experience manning an exhibitor's booth there.

I can't even count the number of blessings I have received, powerful blessings and significant and vital and extraordinary blessings

I have received not only for myself, but for this radio program as a result of manning an exhibitor's booth there.

They typically have over 5 ,000 people attending the G3 Conference and with John MacArthur added to the lineup,

I truly believe that they are going to have over 6 ,000 people. That's just my hunch, but I think it's an educated guess.

So, if you want to register to just attend or also to register for an exhibitor's booth, go to g3conference .com,

g3conference .com. Please tell them that you heard about the conference from Chris Arns and Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

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If you are not a member of a local Bible -believing church, and you're not even prayerfully looking for one, you're living in rebellion against God, I can help you rectify that situation,

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I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to our guests,

Chris Date and Tony Costa, on the debate that we are having, Conditional Immortality vs.

Eternal Conscious Punishment. And, today, the sub -theme, this is the second day of the debate, the sub -theme is,

Is Conscious Torment of the Damned Eternal? And, defending the eternality of the conscious torment is

Tony Costa, of Toronto Baptist Seminary, where he serves as a professor of apologetics and Islam.

And, defending conditional immortality, or opposing eternal conscious punishment, is

Chris Date, who is host of the Theopologetics podcast, and co -editor of Rethinking Hell, and a consuming passion.

So, send in those questions, and we will try to read as many as we can, while time permits, at the end of the program, after their closing statements.

So, that's chrisarnsonatgmail .com. And, now, we will have our cross -examinations begin.

I love this part of the debate. It's the best part of the debate. And, we will begin with Chris Date, who will have 10 minutes to cross -examine

Tony Costa. You can begin now. Thanks, Chris. And, thank you,

Dr. Costa. You said a couple of times in your rebuttal, Dr. Costa, that I haven't established that biblical language of destruction means to cease to exist.

Have you ever heard me claim that it does, whether in this debate or anywhere else? Well, the only conclusion,

Chris, that I can come to is that if God, the way you phrased it, God destroys the wicked, then they will be no more.

And so, that sounds, to me, like annihilation. I'm pretty sure that throughout my opening statements in both of these debates,

I haven't talked about becoming no more or ceasing to be. I've been talking about dying, as opposed to being made immortal and living forever.

But, you agreed in cross -examination yesterday that where the Greek word apollumi is used in the Synoptic Gospels in the form that it's used in Matthew 1028, that is, the active

Greek voice transitively to describe what one personal agent does to another, it means to slay or kill.

In any of those places, does the slaying or killing refer to being made immortal and living forever? No. No, it does not.

It refers to the destruction of the Christ child, the destruction of the

Christ child. What do you mean by destruction of the Christ child? Well, Herod wanted to destroy the Christ child.

What do you mean by destroy? In the passage you quoted from Matthew 2, he wanted to kill him. Kill him. Okay. That doesn't mean annihilate.

That doesn't mean annihilate. I agree. I grant that when a person is slain or killed, his corpse isn't annihilated.

It's not like the molecules that make him up cease to exist. But is a corpse a living immortal person?

A corpse in and of itself, no, is not a living immortal person. Okay. Now, you would agree,

I think, that when a body is slain or killed, it ceases to be animate, ceases to function, that kind of thing.

Is that right? That's right. And I believe the soul departs from the body of death as well. What then do you think would happen to a soul that is also slain or killed, as Jesus says

God would do to them in Matthew 10, 28? Matthew 10, 28, the word apollumi there, the first word that is used there in Matthew 10, 28, is not for those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul.

But the other word that Jesus uses there, apollumi, means that to fear God who can destroy both body and soul, and die anna.

I take that to mean that I take the word apollumi there to render useless, to...

I understand. Let me clarify my question. Let me clarify my question. We've already talked about how everywhere else in the

Synoptic Gospels, where that Greek word apollumi is used in the way it is here, it means to slay or kill, to render somebody a corpse, etc.

I understand you think you have reasons for thinking this is an exception to that, but let's assume for a moment that it's not.

If a body is slain or killed, just like the word apollumi is used everywhere else in that form in the Synoptic Gospels, if a body is apollumied in that way, meaning slain or killed, made a corpse, if that is also what happens to a soul, what do you think would happen to a soul?

Well, I think that in the case of the soul, what it means is... I don't take the word destroy there in Matthew 10, 28.

I understand, Dr. Costa. I'm asking you, if it means what you and I have talked about it means in so many other places in the

Synoptic Gospels, namely to slay or kill, like a body becoming a corpse, and if a body that becomes a corpse ceases to be functioning, ceases to be animate, etc.,

what would that same fate be to a soul? Well, again, it's because I take the dichotomous view.

I believe that the soul is distinct from the body, and I believe that if a soul is destroyed or killed, it means that it is rendered useless, that it is given up to misery, that it is not functioning as it should be, and so forth.

When a corpse is slain, is it put up under misery? No, that's because...

Can I answer that question? Yes. Biblical anthropology, at least the one that I hold to in the

Church has historically held to, is that the body is a tent, according to 2 Corinthians 5, that it's a tabernacle, a tent in which our souls live, and so due to my dichotomous view,

I believe that the soul survives death, but the soul could also be destroyed. Yeah, but so I feel there's a bit of a miscommunication here, and I'm struggling to identify where it is.

The question I'm asking is, you agreed, if I am not misrepresenting you, that in many other places, and it's not the

Gospels, if not all of them, we haven't obviously gone through them all, but if not all of them, when the

Greek word apolomy is used in the way it's used here in Matthew 10, 28, it means to slay or kill, and you admit that the bodies of people so slain or killed are not animate and functioning anymore, and yet you think that destroy means something different in Matthew 10, 28, because you don't think that the bodies of the risen wicked will be rendered inanimate and non -functioning anymore.

And I understand you think you have reason for understanding it differently there, but the question I'm asking you is, if it means the same thing in Matthew 10, 28, that it means everywhere else, and it's not the

Gospels when used in this way, namely to slay a person, and if to slay the body means to render it non -functioning and inanimate, lifeless, what would that same faith mean for a soul?

Because Jesus does there say that men can't do that to the soul, but God can. So my question is, what would a soul be that is slain or killed in the way a

God is? But in Matthew 10, 28, the word Jesus uses for kill there is not the same word he uses for what

God does to the body and soul. God does apolomy to the body and soul. Okay, so are you saying that...

I don't have a ton of time. Okay, I'm just trying to say that most translations will render that destroy, not kill.

I understand, but it also is rendered destroy in those other passages we looked at where it means slay or kill, so that's irrelevant.

So that's fine. We'll move on from this, because it seems like you don't want to answer my question, and that's, I guess, okay.

Moving on, you said that... Well, but you're not, and that's fine. We'll move on. You said that 2

Thessalonians 1, 9 says the wicked will be shut out from the presence of God. Can you please point me to the

Greek words properly translated shut out? Well, it's based on the usage of the preposition apo in chapter 1, verse 9 of 2

Thessalonians, and so the Greek preposition apo means from. That's right, okay.

Now, okay, but it doesn't mean shut out. I mean, can you show me anywhere in the New Testament or in the

Septuagint where the Greek preposition apo is translated properly, shut out? Well, it's based on the understanding that the

Greek preposition apo is translated by a number of scholars as shut out as it does in the

NIV, for example, away from the presence and strength of the Lord as it is in...

Okay, so you can't point me to anywhere in the New Testament or the Septuagint where it's... Well, again, that's why in my opening statement

I mentioned that it's not just sola scriptura, it's sola scriptura, and so 2 Thessalonians 1, 9 agrees with what

Jesus says in Matthew 25, verse 1. Well, I certainly agree with that, but as I try to demonstrate my opening,

I understand it technically. Now, scholars agree that the terms flaming fire and inflicting vengeance in 2

Thessalonians 1, 8, they appear together only in Isaiah 66, 15, and the very next verse of Isaiah 66 says that by fire will the

Lord enter into judgment, and by his sword with all flesh, and those slain by the Lord will be many.

My question for you, then, is why shouldn't we think Paul has the same idea in mind since he uses terminology only found together there?

Well, because I think in the context of Isaiah 66, a lot of these passages deal with God subduing the enemies of Israel and sometimes even the apostates within Israel, bringing them to naught, and I think that Paul's context here in 2

Thessalonians 1, 8, and 9 is clearly an eschatological context, where he's dealing with the parallel seal when the

Lord returns. Since the final judgment is not in some other dimension, it's here in this cosmos after we've been resurrected, why should we think that the eschatological context means that Paul has something different in mind than the very language he quotes from Isaiah 66?

Well, I wouldn't say altogether that it's only earthbound, that this judgment is only earthbound.

It's very obvious that we're dealing with the new heaven and the new earth, we're dealing with the new

Jerusalem, we're dealing with the world to come, as is known in Hebrew, olam haba, and so the eschatological context,

I think, is referring to that last time, the time of judgment, where God will bring in the new heavens and the new earth and the new

Jerusalem. So I wouldn't say that it's just earthbound, just earthly, I think there's also both a heavenly and earthly aspect to this eschatological event.

But it's this cosmos, correct? I'm sorry? It's this cosmos, correct? Yeah, it's this cosmos, which is heaven and earth, and yeah.

All right, now in your rebuttal you said that contempt must bring about shame. Are the corpses in Isaiah 66, 24 experiencing shame?

No. Okay, number nine, my last question with only 30 seconds left is, you quoted the phrase eternal fire a number of times, and you made the claim several times that first century

Jews largely believed in eternal torment, but in my opening I pointed out that eternal fire is used in Qumran's community rule, which says those confined to the gloom of everlasting fire will face a shameful extinction in the fire of hell's outer darkness, utter destruction with neither remnant nor rescue.

How do you reconcile your claims about eternal fire and first century Jewish views of hell with this text?

Would you just say that it's an unusual outlier? Well, because, as you admitted, during the

Second Temple Jewish period, there was not a monolithic view among the Jews about eternal punishment or recognition of mortality.

So 2nd Maccabees, 4th Maccabees is very clear on this. 1st Enoch as well uses words like eternal torture, eternal punishment.

The Apocalypse of Peter as well, the New Testament Apocalypse of Peter also goes into great detail about eternal punishment, torment of the living.

Okay, we're out of time for the first cross -examination period by Chris Date. Now Dr. Tony Costa will cross -examine

Chris Date. Chris, in my opening statement,

I made reference to E .P. Sanders and a number of other scholars who have shown that in the first century, the pharisaic belief was that there was—not only did they believe in the soul, but they also believed that there was rewards of punishment and rewards of eternal life in the hereafter.

And also, the schools of Shabbat and Hallel also believe in eternal, conscious punishment as well.

Can you explain to us why it is that Jesus—that this was an area that was never disputed by Jesus or the

Apostles with the Pharisees of the day? Yeah, because I don't think there was really anything to dispute.

I mean, we're going to play a game of dueling scholars here, because you're going to cite E .P. Sanders, we'll all cite

David and Stone Brewer. David and Stone Brewer, an expert on Second Temple Judaism and Intertestamental Literature, says exactly the opposite, that the schools of Shammai and Hillel and others, and other rabbis and other

Intertestamental Literature, all taught what I teach about hell and final punishment. Now, there were exceptions to that, but the point that I'm getting at is, there was nothing for Jesus to dispute, unless we simply blindly accept

Josephus' testimony about the Pharisees and treat that as the lens through which we interpret everything else. Okay.

But also, in the New Testament, we note that the only sect that Jesus had any issues with when it came to the question of the afterlife were the

Sadducees, because of their denial of the Resurrection. But would you admit that the only contention that Jesus had when it came to the afterlife only pertained to that of the

Sadducees and never the Pharisees? Not necessarily, because as Dr.

Stone Brewer explains in his chapter of A Consuming Passion, he actually challenged their views about the afterlife when it comes to other things, like,

I'll just have to invite listeners to go check that contribution out. But again, the point I'm getting at is that Dr.

Stone Brewer and other scholars of the Intertestamental period will disagree with you and your scholars, and say that no, the

Pharisees didn't, that the rabbis didn't all believe in eternal torment. And so, your question kind of baffles me.

I don't know what relevance. It'd be like saying, why doesn't Jesus tell the Pharisees they're wrong if he held to the view they held?

Because I think they probably did hold the view that I hold. So you believe the Pharisees of Jesus, they would have held to the view you held?

I think that's very plausible, yes. So in Intertestinal literature, like that of 2

Maccabees and 4 Maccabees, where it speaks in 4 Maccabees 9 -9 about eternal torture by fire, and also eternal punishment, and so forth, would you agree that 2

Maccabees and 4 Maccabees teach the concept of eternal punishment? I would not.

I would not agree to that, for the simple reason that believers in eternal torment who have studied this literature are way too quick to assume that when they read a verse or two that sounds like what they believe, those writers must believe what they believe.

But as I quoted in my rebuttal, the Qumran scroll uses a lot of language that eternal torment believers would think has to do with eternal torment as well, and yet they're talking about extinction and utter destruction.

So I'm not convinced, no, that the Maccabees text that you cited teach that, but even if it does, you've got a host of other

Intertestinal literature that disagrees. Right, so as I've mentioned already, that we don't have a monolithic view here when it comes to the question that you and I are both debating.

But anyway, I'll move on to the next question. In Isaiah 26 verses 13 -14, you have a

Bible handy there with you, in Isaiah 26 verses 13 -14, the prophet there speaks about the dead not living.

And I was wondering if you could probably...it says there, O Lord our God, other masters than thou has ruled us, but through thee alone we confess thy name.

The dead will not live, the departed spirits will not rise, therefore thou has punished and destroyed them, thou has wiped out all remembrance of them.

Is Isaiah saying here that the wicked would not have a resurrection and the judgment of God?

I don't think so, because I believe in the inerrancy of scripture and coda scriptura.

I think it's more likely that if that's what Isaiah is saying, that they won't live and arise in the way that we would ordinarily read that language,

I think what he means is they won't experience resurrection life, they won't rise and then remain alive.

They'll rise to judgment but then die again, so it'll be as if they really never rose to begin with. Okay, but it does say in 14 that the dead will not live.

Yeah, that's right, that's correct. So how do you reconcile that with, you believe in the resurrection of the just and the unjust, that there'll be a punishment, a resurrection to eternal life and a resurrection to judgment, as Matt has done, 5, 28 -29 points out.

So in Isaiah 26 here that I've alluded to, is Isaiah contradicting that concept?

No, and I've just explained why. We can speak about somebody not partaking in the resurrection, and we can mean not that they won't rise at all, but that they won't rise and remain alive forever.

And as I demonstrated yesterday, that's the idea that Jesus seems to indicate in Luke 20, where he says that the sons of this age, he says those who are worthy to attain to the resurrection and that age, will not be able to die anymore.

The obvious implication, notwithstanding your disagreement, is that those who are not so counted worthy will remain able to die, but they're not those that he says will attain to the resurrection and to that age.

So we can talk about people not partaking in the resurrection and not mean by that, that they won't rise at all.

We can just mean they won't remain arisen, they will die again. Right. In Isaiah 26, 19, the prophet then turns and speaks of your dead, the dead that belong to God will live and their corpses will rise.

And here we have an early passage about the resurrection, but I think it's quite interesting that Isaiah here seems to think that it's

God's dead, those who are his people that will rise, whereas he seems to be indicating here, at least at this point in Progressive Revelation, that the dead do not rise.

But Daniel, again, gives us further light on that. My whole point there, Chris, is to show that there's a

Progressive Revelation going on here. Oh, I agree. Let me just move on to the next question.

Revelation 14, 9 -11, where it says that they will drink the wine of God's wrath, pour it out in full strength, and then it says he will be tormented with fire and salt in the presence of the holy angels and the presence of the

Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest day or night. Can you explain why it is that the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, when if they are simply taken out, or killed as you put it, why would the smoke of their torment continue to go up forever and ever?

Yeah, this is apocalyptic imagery, and we have to let apocalyptic imagery be interpreted for us by not only the standards of hermeneutical principles, but also by the interpreters in the text itself.

And that's important, because that same concept of smoke rising forever from torment is used elsewhere in Revelation chapter 18.

The harlot Mystery Babylon is tormented in fire, and then at the beginning of Revelation 19, a chorus cries out, hallelujah, the smoke from her goes up forever and ever.

So you've got this picture of the harlot being tormented forever and ever, and yet the angel interprets that imagery in Revelation 18 -21, saying, so will the great city be thrown down with violence and be found no more.

Right, but does it say the smoke of her torment is going up forever? Where else would that smoke be coming from, sir?

Well, we're dealing with a city there, right? No, we're not, we're dealing with a woman. In Revelation 14, well, it's a woman that is the personification of Babylon the great, but here in Revelation 14, 9 -11, we're dealing with people who have followed the beast and have turned their backs on the

Lamb of God and so forth, and here is a judgment scene. The presence of the holy angels indicates the judgment scene.

Sure. So wouldn't you then at least admit here that the context is different?

We have these are persons under judgment, and if the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever,

I mean, if they are extinguished or taken out, how does the smoke of their torment keep going up forever and ever?

You appear to think that I think the Book of Revelation depicts the wicked being slain and not living again forever, but I've never made that claim.

In fact, in all of the literature that I've produced and in the audio stuff that I've produced, I've firmly admitted that yes, the

Book of Revelation depicts the wicked being tormented forever in fire, but the question that we as biblical interpreters have to ask is, what does that imagery mean?

And in order to answer that question, we have to look at what that imagery means elsewhere, and as we just saw in Revelation 18, it means destruction, not life and immortality and suffering forever.

And it comes from imagery elsewhere, which means the same thing. So I prefer to apply standard principles of hermeneutics and to interpret the imagery in light of what that imagery means elsewhere in the very same vision.

Right. But context is king, which is great. Context. Yes. So in this context, we're dealing with people, right?

Not a city. But you're dealing with people in a vision. In an apocalyptic vision.

But apocalyptic visions still correspond to reality. They may be there. No, that's actually not correct.

But they are pictures of something. But let me just move on to the next one.

We are actually out of time for this segment. I'm sorry. We have reached the 10 -minute point.

Now we're going to go to our final break, and we are going to have final seven -minute rebuttals from each of our debaters.

So don't go away. This is a much more brief break. We'll be right back after these messages. When Iron Trumpets Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

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I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries, and my friend Chris Arnzen and I are excited to be attending another

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That's G3conference .com. See you there! Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio here.

I want to tell you about a man I have personally known for many years. His name is Dan Buttafuoco.

Dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer, but not the type that typically comes to mind.

Dan cares about people and is a theologian himself. Recently he wrote a book titled,

Consider the Evidence for the Bible. Ravi Zacharias wrote the foreword. Dan also has a master's degree in theology.

Dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states. He represents many

Christians in serious injury matters all over the country. Dan is an exceptional trial lawyer.

He wrote the test for the National Board of Trial Advocacy, and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for $1 million or more, and in approximately 10 different states.

In Illinois, his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history. In New York, his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the law journal.

If you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state, I recommend that you call

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That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Welcome back, and now it is time for Chris Date to give his final seven minutes closing remarks.

Thank you. I hadn't prepared a closing remark. I'll treat this more as a rebuttal and just encourage listeners to check out my work at RethinkingHell .com

or the RethinkingHell YouTube channel. Find my academia .edu profile where I've got some journal articles published on the topic, or just reach out to me via email at chrisdate at RethinkingHell .com

or to befriend me on Facebook at facebook .com slash chrisdate, and I'd be happy to discuss further. In the meantime, when it comes to the case that Dr.

Costa has offered today, a number of times, as we discussed in cross -examination, he had said that I haven't established that the biblical language of destruction means to cease to exist, and that's despite the fact that I've never claimed otherwise.

What I have consistently claimed is that to be destroyed in biblical language is to be slain and to not live anymore, and in contrast to that,

Dr. Costa believes the risen wicked will never be slain. They will be made immortal and live forever in hell, despite the range of biblical evidence to the contrary.

Yes, when a person is slain, the molecules that make up his body don't cease to exist. Those atoms don't poof out of existence.

But a corpse is not a living immortal, as Dr. Costa admitted during cross -examination, so this entire does -not -cease -to -exist stuff that Dr.

Costa and other traditionalists often argue in the context of this debate is a red herring.

It's utterly meaningless in this debate. The question is whether or not the risen wicked will remain alive and immortal forever.

Dr. Costa believes they will. The Bible teaches otherwise. Now, Dr. Costa agreed, when we were discussing

Matthew 1028, that everywhere else in the Synoptic Gospels that he's aware of, anyway, in which the Greek word apollumi, translated destroy, in Matthew 1028 is used in the same way it's used in Matthew 1028, it means to slay or kill.

Yes, it's translated destroy, but it means to slay or kill, like Herod wanted to do to the baby

Jesus, the Pharisees wanted to do to the adult Jesus, and so forth. That's what that word means in the way that Jesus uses it in Matthew 1028.

Elsewhere, where it means ruin or waste or not function properly, it's all in other forms of that word or in other contexts.

Either they're inanimate objects, like coins or oil, or they are animals, like sheep, or the word is not in the

Greek active voice or not used transitively. It doesn't matter what the word means in those contexts.

What matters is what the word means when it's used in the active voice, transitively, to describe what one personal agent does to another, and everywhere else in the

Synoptic Gospels it's used in that way. It means to slay or kill, but it's precisely slaying and killing that Dr.

Costa does not believe will ever, ever, ever happen for billions and trillions of years to the risen wicked in hell, because they will be immortal and live forever.

We discussed 2 Thessalonians 1 -9 in cross -examination, and he agreed that there's no Greek text that properly is translated shut out there.

He thinks it has to do more with sort of the idea of being away from the presence of God. And yet, as I pointed out,

Paul is quoting language from Isaiah 66 -15, this flaming fire and inflicting vengeance, where the language of destruction has to do with being slain.

And when I asked Dr. Costa why we shouldn't therefore understand Paul in the same way, he said, well, it has to do with the otherworldly context of the eschatological final judgment.

I've yet to see any reason for thinking why that justifies taking the fact that Paul quotes this text and gives no indication that he means something other than what was meant in Isaiah 66, why we should nevertheless understand

Paul to be speaking about something completely different. I don't understand why eschatological context means it's okay to take death and destruction and make it mean immortal and living forever.

I don't understand that. He also argued in his rebuttal that contempt must bring about shame, and yet, as he admitted in cross -examination, the corpses in Isaiah 66 -24 aren't experiencing shame, but they are objects of contempt explicitly in that language.

And in fact, the word translated abhorrence or contemptible is used in only one other place, and that's

Daniel 12 -2, where only that, this contempt, this emotion that the righteous have when they look at the corpses of the wicked in Isaiah 66 -24, that's what is eternal.

He quoted it as if it said the shame was eternal as well, but it's not. The shame, the emotion that the wicked experience is not eternal, and that's interesting.

But the point regarding Daniel 12 -2, as we discussed, only the righteous are there said to receive eternal life, and yet Dr.

Costa believes that the risen wicked will live forever, too. Dr. Costa a number of times quoted the phrase eternal fire as if that supported his view, even though I demonstrated that Matthew 18 -89 and Jude 7 and the

Qumran scroll all use the language to refer to destruction, being slain, not to being immortal and living forever in fire, and so I found it a little bizarre that he used the phrase as if it supported his view.

And when I pointed out that the Qumran scroll uses the phrase eternal fire to refer to fire that makes the wicked extinct and utterly destroyed, and when

I pointed out that there are other Intertestinal literature as well, which indicate that many

Jews believe that the risen wicked would finally be destroyed, Dr. Costa still wants to press me into acknowledging that Jesus doesn't dispute the

Pharisees' view of hell. But as I pointed out, I don't agree in the first place that the

Pharisees would have believed in eternal torment, as Dr. Costa claims, and so the fact that Jesus doesn't dispute them is irrelevant unless Dr.

Costa can prove that they did, in fact, monolithically, the Pharisees, that is, believe in eternal torment.

And his only reason for thinking so, well, his only two reasons for thinking so, are a questionable statement by Josephus and a mixed diversity of views in the

Intertestinal literature. I don't understand how that should, or why that should establish that the Pharisees monolithically believed in eternal torment, and therefore it's somehow significant that Jesus didn't dispute them on it.

Meanwhile, I pointed out that Dr. Enstone Brewer points out in his article in my book, A Consuming Passion, again,

Dr. Enstone Brewer is an expert on the Intertestinal literature and Second Temple Judaism. He points out that, in fact, most

Jews of that time, including the rabbinical schools, believed in final destruction, not immortality and eternal life in hell, as Dr.

Costa believes. So I'm happy to let the Intertestinal literature inform our understanding of the New Testament, but it doesn't help

Dr. Costa, it hurts him. Now, in the remaining 30 seconds that I've got in my rebuttal,

I'll just point out that this debate has been one which, from my perspective, should wake people up, because it's believed by many traditionalists that we conditionalists are just soft -hearted, sentimental liberals who can't stomach the idea that the wicked will be tormented in fire forever, as immortals living forever.

In fact, Dr. Costa said toward the end of his rebuttal that emotions shouldn't be our guide. That was a really bizarre claim to make, since emotions haven't been a part of anything

I've said. I agree, let's let Scripture be our guide, but as I've demonstrated, Scripture in no way supports

Dr. Costa's view. Thank you. Dr. Costa, you now have seven minutes for a final statement.

Thank you very much. I think that this debate, as well, comes back to the question of worldview and how we're approaching the text.

Now, my reference to emotions was not directed at Chris Bates. It's that it becomes an emotional issue for many people, especially those who think that the idea of eternal, conscious punishment somehow smears

God as a cosmic tyrant, and so forth. So that was not directly aimed at Chris. But what

I would say is that the biblical anthropological view of the human is that the human being is made in God's image, that the human being is a composite being, not just material, as Chris holds it, as a physicalist, that man is just physical.

I believe that man is both physical and spiritual, made in the image of God. And I think it's very clear from the

Old Testament that the departed, those who died, went to Sheol, there was a belief in an afterlife, that the person just didn't disappear out of existence, but that they continued to exist.

Now, the other issue that we need to understand is, as we move to the Old Testament, we have progressive revelation.

Isaiah 26 points out that God's people will live again. He looks at the wicked as those who will not live, as I demonstrated in my cross -examination with Chris.

The main passage that clearly speaks of a resurrection of the just and the unjust is Daniel 12 and verse 2.

And now, of course, he looks at the word everlasting contempt, and he says, well, the only other word that that appears is in Isaiah 66, verse 24.

But again, the resurrection to contempt there, there's two sets of people, those who are raised to eternal life, and of course, eternal life is the qualitative life that we have in relationship with God, and the ones who are raised to eternal contempt are those, obviously, who are outside of that life with God.

And so I think what Chris is doing is he's collapsing Isaiah 66, 24 with Daniel 12, too. Isaiah 66, 24, in fact, is actually a picture of a battle scene where the dead are exposed to the elements, and their bodies are being ravaged by maggots and so forth and so on.

That imagery is what created the ideology in the intertestament period about those who did believe in eternal punishment, to use the phrases like the worm that does not die in the fire that is not quenched.

Obviously, when bodies are completely consumed, the maggots disappear, the worms are gone. When the fire has done its job, the fire is gone, but it's described there as unpunishable.

And a worm that does not die, and this was later adapted by the Lord Jesus Christ, described the horror of those who reject

God. I think that the idea of conscious torment also underscores the fact that God's justice will prevail at the end, that the language of being taken away from the presence of God is the language of outer darkness, the language of gnashing of teeth, it's the language of unquenchable fire, it's the language of the undying worm.

These are expressions, human expressions, to describe the utter horror of being separated from God.

Now, Chris pointed out that 2 Thessalonians 1 -9 does not talk about this idea of being separated or shut out from the presence of the

Lord, and yet many translations translate it that way by many competent Greek and New Testament scholars. And so the issue here is that Chris has to explain why it is that a number of translators have translated it that way, and that's because the preposition apple -from does denote this idea of expulsion from the presence of the

Lord. Now, remember, I brought Matthew 25, 41, and 46 into the picture. Christ said,

Depart from me, you cursed ones, into the everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. And this language of departure and away from the presence of the

Lord is later seen in the book Revelation, where they are sent into the lake of fire, where the devil and the false prophet and the beast are.

Now, let me make the point clear that for 2 ,000 years, the Church has, in its history, it has primarily held, as Philip Schaap has said, that it has held to eternal punishment.

This, according to Philip Schaap, has been the view of the Church. He says it was held by the Jews at the time of Christ, with the exception of the

Sadducees, who denied the Resurrection. In Origen, the 3rd century

Church father, or Church writer, actually, it was the first two questions, the whole idea of eternal punishment.

Origen suggested that there would be actually a, what he called an apocatastasis, a reconciliation, a restitution of all things, which led him to teach

Universalism. And the Council of Constantinople, the 2nd Council of Constantinople in 563

A .D., condemned him as a heretic, and they also condemned the teachings of Barnobius, who taught

Annihilationism and Conditional Immortality, which is the view that Chris holds.

I know he denies the word Annihilationism, but I can understand how the person who exists and then is slain and taken out, that cannot mean anything but Annihilationism.

We also know that this view was also held by later heretics, like the Thessalonians, and today it's held by Jehovah's Witnesses and Christadelphians and Seventh -day

Adventists. I think it's important for us to understand that there's a reason why the Church held to this view, and why it has been the dominant view in both the

Roman Catholics, Orthodox Churches, and the Protestant Churches, and the Reformers themselves affirmed this in their confessions, as the

Westminster Confession, the Augsburg Confession, and so forth. And so I think that if you look at the passages we looked at very clearly, read them at face value, and ask the

Lord to guide you in the reading of his Word, I think it's pretty clear that, as in 2546, when it says that the righteous go into eternal life, and the others, the ghosts, go into eternal punishment,

I think it's very clear that the destinations of both these parties are both eternal. You have to read into the text the idea of conditional immortality, and I think the fact that the

Church has rejected this historically, I think the fact that the Church continues to reject this, even though there are some, like Chris Tate is not alone in this, we've had

John Stott, but then we've had Clark Tennant, who then veered off into the heresy of open theism, and also to the point that he believed in post -mortem evangelism.

And so what I think the death of Christ says to us is this, it took the most precious person in the universe, the most perfect being, to take the place of sinners on the cross of Calvary.

Not to just die so that he could just take away physical death, but he came to remove spiritual death, our separation from God.

And in the cross of Calvary, he bore the awful wrath of God in our place. And the awful wrath of God is seen in the last book of the

Bible, where people whose names are not written in the book of life are cast out into the lake of fire, and they are forever removed from the presence of God himself.

And so the preaching of this place, Gehenna, hell, Jesus Christ preached on this more than he preached on the subject of heaven, and that's because it's real.

Sinners go there by divine judgment, and Christ Jesus paid the one penalty that would save us from Satan, from sin, from death, from eternal separation from God.

And we're out of time. And we're out of time. We have time for one question for each of you, and then

I want to invite you back, both of you, to just have a full two hours of answering audience questions.

The first question is from John in Bangor, Maine, for Tony Costa.

If the Bible teaches that the eternal punishment is that some will have few stripes and some will have many, how on earth could few stripes possibly mean eternal conscious torment?

Well, I believe there are degrees of punishment, even if it's eternal. We understand that degrees of punishment can vary from, you go up to somebody on the street and punch them in the face, you're going to probably get some time for assault, but if you go up to the

President of the United States and punch the President of the United States in the face, you're going to get a greater degree of punishment.

So I believe that in hell, Jesus spoke about it would be more tolerable for some cities than for others.

I believe that there are degrees of punishment in hell. And Chris Date, you want to respond?

I'll just add that I believe in degrees of punishment as well. It's a common myth that believers in eternal torment perpetuate that annihilation doesn't support any concept of degrees of punishment.

I reject that myth, and I think there are degrees of punishment within our view, but we'll save that for the next time we come on.

We have Gary in Southbridge, Massachusetts, who has a question for Chris Date, and the question is, if necromancy is a sin condemned in the

Old Testament, how on earth could these people not be conscious who have died?

I'm not here to defend my view of physicalism. I'm here to defend conditional immortality.

And as I've demonstrated, Irenaeus of Lyon, who was well before Arnobius, who by the way, it's false. Arnobius, in his view, was not condemned at the

Second Council of Constantinople. That too is a myth. But anyway, even well before Arnobius, Irenaeus of Lyon, Athanasius the

Great, Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, all of these fathers taught my view, and several of them, if not all of them, were dualists who believe that people are conscious in the intermediate state.

So I'm just going to let that question go unanswered, because I'm not here to defend physicalism. And Tony Costa, your response?

Yes, I would say that the very fact that necromancy existed in Israel suggests and shows that the

Hebrews did believe that their loved ones, or the departed, were still conscious. Otherwise, why try to communicate with them?

You see in 1 Samuel 28 how King Saul goes to the Witch of Endor, and we're told that Saul was summoned from Sheol.

And Saul was fully conscious, he knew Saul, excuse me, Samuel, the prophet Samuel was brought up from Sheol.

He knew King Saul, and he even predicted and prophesied his death, and that he would join them in Sheol as well.

And so the fact that Jesus, when he appeared after his resurrection, we're told in Luke chapter 24,

I believe it was verse 39 or 37, it says, when they saw him they were terrified, and they thought that they saw a spirit, or a ghost, a pneuma.

And so this shows us that first -century Jews, like the apostles of Jesus, did believe that the soul did survive the death of the body, and therefore they were dualists and not physicalists.

And if you could, Tony Costa, Chris State has already given his contact information, if you could provide any contact information you care to share.

Yes, my email is tmcos at rogers .com, T as in Tom, M as in Michael, C as in Christopher, O as in Oscar, S as in Sam, at rogers .com.

They could also follow my videos on YouTube, they're called the Third Degree, T -H -I -R -D,

Degree. I just put my name, Tony Costa, Third Degree, on YouTube, and you'll see that. And I'm also on Twitter, at tmcos underscore

Tony. All right, thank you, both of you, so much. I want to thank everybody who listened, and stay tuned, or keep your ears and eyes open for our third edition of this debate, where we will only be taking questions from our listeners at an undetermined date.

So, I want to remember, I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater