August 27, 2019 Show with Alan Dunn on “Gospel Intimacy in a Godly Marriage” (Part 2)

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 27th day of August 2019.

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And I'm thrilled to have back on the program a returning guest who is going to be addressing part two of a discussion that we began eight days ago on Monday, August 19th.

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I'm speaking of Pastor Alan Dunn of Grace Covenant Baptist Church of Flemington, New Jersey, and we are addressing his book,

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Gospel Intimacy in a Godly Marriage. And as I said, this is part two of our discussion, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Alan Dunn.

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Thank you, Chris. It's a pleasure to be back with you again today. For those of our listeners who did not hear your interview eight days ago and who have not heard of you before, why don't you tell our listeners about Grace Covenant Baptist Church of Flemington, New Jersey.

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Well, we are a confessional church. We hold to the London Baptist Confession 1689 in Flemington, New Jersey, the county seat of Hunterdon County.

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We've been together now over 30 -plus years. We were constituted back in 1985, and many of us were together for some time prior to that.

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So we're a small church but vital, and evidencing what we believe to be manifestation of God by his spirit dwelling in our midst.

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We meet at 35 Court Street in Flemington for anyone who may be in the vicinity.

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One thing that always pops into my head, and I'm sure you would concur with this, is that far too many people put far too much emphasis on the numeric size of a congregation.

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They think the bigger the better, the smaller the worse. There must be something wrong with that church if it's small.

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They must not have a zeal for evangelism. There must be something crazy going on there. But isn't it true that very often you will have a group of biblically faithful people who take seriously the word of God.

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They don't compromise. They don't cater to the lost surroundings to their congregation by providing music and sermons that will appeal to the hearts and minds of lost people in order to draw them in.

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And therefore, very often, such faithful churches like that remain numerically small.

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I don't mean to bash some of our huge churches in the

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United States like Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, California, where John MacArthur is the pastor, and you have many other churches that are quite large.

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In fact, the church where you will be conducting your marriage conference,

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Trinity Baptist Church of Montville, has always been considered a megachurch for Reformed Baptists as far as the size.

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But if you could let me know what your response to what I just said is. Yeah. You know, the numerical profile of the congregation in any given situation certainly can ebb and flow.

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Now, there are, I think, unique blessings through a smaller congregation that perhaps isn't characteristic of a larger church.

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Often in a larger church setting, some of the blessings of a smaller, more intimate grouping is pursued in the small group ministries.

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And then on the other hand, there are other limitations that a small church has relative to how many hands are on deck and resources and the exercise of gifts and so forth.

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So in any given context, I think you've got, you know, pluses and negatives.

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It's a sobering stewardship for any of Christ's under -shepherds to realize that they're going to give an account for those under their shepherding responsibilities.

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Sometimes that thought makes me thankful that the church isn't any bigger.

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Amen. And I just want to let our listeners know, we will be repeating this later, God willing, but the website for Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey is gcbcnj .squarespace

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.com That's G -C for Grace Covenant, B -C for Baptist Church, N -J for New Jersey, dot

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Squarespace dot com. And by the way, Squarespace, you spell out those words,

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Squarespace. I confused a friend the other day who thought that that was actually a key on the keypad of his computer,

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Squarespace. And he said, where's the Squarespace key? I don't see it. It's not a key. It's a word.

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But anyway, well, I am very happy that we are continuing our conversation, because we really barely put a dent in it last time, on gospel intimacy in a godly marriage.

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And if you could, we touched on it a bit last time. Why don't you further expand an explanation of the doctrine of redemption and how it directs our journey into marital intimacy?

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Well, one of the central themes of this book project was to emphasize what

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I've called gospel love. And by that,

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I mean the responsibility of two believers who are married, that they are committed to love one another with the love that we have received from Christ himself, so that our love is distinctively gospel -conditioned, gospel -defined.

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There's a supernatural resource to that love. We're not limited or bound by our own personal experiences, or the things that we learned at school, or the futile way of life inherited from our forefathers, as Peter says.

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But we have a resource, which is the risen Christ, and it's his love communicated to us by the

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Spirit, defined in terms of his death and resurrection, whereby our sins are forgiven.

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That redemption is to be the practical dynamic operative in the relationship of the husband and the wife.

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And the reason that that is so necessary is because the greatest challenge to the cultivation of interpersonal intimacy, the greatest challenge is sin.

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And there's only one resource that is provided for us to address the death -separating dynamic of sin, and that is with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

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So the main thrust of the book is an encouragement for Christians to see themselves in relation to God, and in relation to who we are in an image of God created male and female, understanding the reality of the fall, the impact of sin, but drawing upon the resources of the risen

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Christ that we might learn to love each other with the essentials of the gospel of God.

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And, of course, since husbands are to love their wives, as Paul tells us, and just as Christ laid down his life for the church and gave himself up for her, there is something that God intended to picture in a marriage that is deeply connected with redemption, isn't it?

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Yeah, yeah. The marriage is a profound, all -encompassing motif of Scripture.

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Of course, we see it in its pristine beauty there at the end of Genesis chapter 2, where the man and the wife are both naked and unashamed.

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And that image is marvelous because it speaks to us of the dignity of our createdness, the dignity of who we are as an image of God in our gender -distinctive identities and roles.

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And then, of course, the place of marriage in the event of the fall.

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My understanding, there are many facets to what's happening in the fall in Genesis chapter 3, but in a real way, the evil one attacks the headship, the leadership of the husband at this point, his responsibility to have communicated those words that God gave to him in Genesis 2, 16 -17 concerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

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It was his responsibility to have communicated those words to his wife upon God's fashioning of her.

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And the evil one attacks that. He attacks the man, really, at the point of his leadership.

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Has he done what he needs to do in order to lead his wife lovingly in obedience to the word of God?

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It's stunning in Genesis 3, 6, when you ask the question, well, where's Adam?

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Well, Eve is having this dialogue with the devil. Well, Moses says he was with her, and it's amazing.

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Later, I believe in verse 17, it indicates that there was some conversation that they even had, and the whole point of the fall and how that had penetrated into the marriage relationship and the result of sin in the marriage.

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Maybe we'll talk about some of the tendencies to the imbalances that we face that we have to fight against with the gospel.

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But then, of course, the place of marriage and the gospel, Christ being the husband, as you made reference alluding to Ephesians 5, the nature of his love for his bride, his church, we then see that consummated in glory, where John sees in Revelation 21 the bride of Christ coming down from heaven as a new

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Jerusalem. And these wonderful, rich metaphors that have been accumulated across the pages of Scripture or across the course of redemptive history now all come to their consummated fulfillment in the

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Resurrection. So that eternity, in a real sense, brings us to anticipate all of the wonders of intimacy and love that are originally depicted in the

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Garden. We come back to the Garden now as the bride of Christ, with Christ, in a new heavens and new earth, and the

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Bible, as it were, ends, but in actuality, things really now begin. And the next part of your book that deals with gospel intimacy is that marital intimacy and the grace of the gospel of love, or the grace of gospel love, it challenges the married couples to or toward gospel love.

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If you could further expand upon that. I know that somebody,

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I believe, asked during the last interview, or perhaps it was just a spoken statement rather than a question, but I remember somebody referring to the fact that there would be far more arguments and splits and anger and perhaps even bordering on hate in marriages if we both, the husband and the wife, were to constantly recall to our memories what

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Christ forgave us for. And we very often don't do that. We just want to demand our rights.

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We want to receive what we think we should deserve in a marriage. And the wife very often says,

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Well, I'm not going to submit until my husband truly leads like a Christian man. And the man says,

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I'm not going to truly lead like a Christian man until my wife submits. And then there's a standoff, all that kind of thing.

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But if you could expand on that. Yeah, let's put a footnote on the second part of what you just said there,

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Chris, in regard to that headship submission dynamic. Because I think there is a real challenge in how to attain and maintain balance in that dynamic.

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And we're vulnerable to imbalance because of the impact of sin. But backing up before that, the challenge that we face in marriage is the challenge of intimacy.

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In my book, I discuss something of the tension.

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On the one hand, we get married because we want to be intimate. We want to be known.

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We want to be accepted. We want to be embraced. We want to be loved. And we desire to have that profound intimacy and union with another person.

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God has made us to be social. And that desire is innate in us.

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And yet, no small part due to our sin. On the other hand, we often find ourselves saying,

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Hey, leave me alone. You're intruding on me. I don't want you to press this close to me.

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This is uncomfortable. And what you have is a balance that desires that intimacy and yet runs from that intimacy because there's this realization,

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Hey, I'm being exposed here. This is someone with whom

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I'm living constantly. And the reality, the core essence of who

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I really am, my personality, my habits, so forth, character, these things are being exposed.

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And that exposure can oftentimes be uncomfortable because it's the realization that there are things about me that are not particularly attractive, that are coming into the light not only of my conscience, but now the scrutiny of another conscience and the potential for offense, the potential for sin.

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Because when you dig deep into yourself, you discover the pockets of remaining sin that can gush out, as it were, and soil and pollute the relationship.

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What is the enemy of gospel love? Well, again, succinctly, the enemy of gospel love is sin.

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And we're reluctant, I fear in our day, for perhaps many different reasons that converge to make us somewhat allergic even to the word sin.

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We don't like to talk about sin. We couch moral offenses with different language and different terms and different phraseology.

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And we need to call sin, sin. And John makes it very clear in 1 John that sin is lawlessness.

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And we have to be able to identify sin as a violation of God's law.

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And you made mention earlier there of the potential in marriages for anger, for embitterment, that kind of polluting of the relationship, which is all circling around the

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Sixth Commandment, you shall not murder. And it's absolutely stunning when you realize that that is the sin that Paul warns

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Christian men against when he tells them that we are to love our wives as Christ loved the

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Church, that no one fails to nourish and cherish his wife because that's a failure to cherish and nourish and cherish himself.

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No one hates his own flesh. And he uses the language of hate in contrast to love.

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He tells us in Colossians 3 that we're not to be embittered toward our wives.

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And the liability many times is a violation of the Sixth Commandment, that a failure to love in stark terms is, in fact, a commitment, a violation of the

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Sixth Commandment in terms of hatred. I'll tell you a little story that is in the book, and it's a dear friend of mine, a pastor friend.

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We were sitting on his porch having a conversation one afternoon. I was visiting and preaching at his church, and his wife came to us with some refreshments, and we stopped our conversation, engaged with his wife for a bit, and then she excused herself and went on back to the house.

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And as he was watching her, I could tell he had an expression on his face of real affection and real love for her.

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And I just commented to him and said, Brother, you know, it's evident you love that woman, don't you?

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And he just put his head down, shook his head, and said, Oh, my friend, I've murdered that woman in my heart so many times.

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God forgive me. And we just started laughing at the raw reality of that kind of realistic love, that here is a woman that I truly love.

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And there are times where my biggest struggle is precisely what Paul says, that hatred that can sever the relationship and anger that can be expressed in the full spectrum of emotional distancing, words, and even as we referenced last time, even on occasion it can spill out into acts of violence that are sinful.

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And we have to recognize that dynamic of sin, and that's why we have the Gospel. Amen. Amen.

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Well, let's move into being a Gospel lover.

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Tell us about that. Yeah, well, that basically concerns two postures that are prescribed in Scripture, and this is a dynamic of love that is prescribed for the relationships of Christians in the local church primarily.

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But these principles, of course, are applicable within the bonds of marriage as well.

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And the first is the posture, the disposition, and attitude of forbearance. As you mentioned earlier,

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Chris, I mean, if we were to stop and mark every offense, every irritation, every annoyance, we wouldn't get out of first gear.

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We wouldn't move very far, very fast at all. So there has to be that love that Peter talks about that covers a multitude of sins.

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There has to be the willingness to prayerfully, with a disposition of patience and kindness and forbearance, be willing to forbear.

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And to have an attitude of a peacemaker that doesn't take every flight as an opportunity to go to war, so to speak.

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But then the other disposition, and here is where actions and words come more to the fore.

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Certainly forbearance requires action of words, but the other disposition, the other matter has to do with forgiveness.

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And here, I think, I've been asked, well, what's the difference? How do you transition from forbearance to forgiveness?

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And I think that is something that is, you're made aware of the dynamic of death.

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When there is an offense, when there is a sin that is of such a degree and has developed to such an extent that we realize, or one of the partners realizes,

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I'm separating from my spouse. My forbearance mechanisms are not working here, and this thing, this whatever it is, is causing us to pull apart.

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And separation is the essence of death. Separation divides what

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God has united in creation life. And so when there's this realization of severance, that's when we ought to move to the dynamic of forgiveness.

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And there's where we need to implement what I call a gospel exchange, a transaction.

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There's where the whole issue is of bringing sin to light. There may have to be the admonition on the part of one, the pointing out of the sin on the part of one's spouse.

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We should be willing then to confess. This is the area of our expertise, Chris. This is what we're really good at as Christians.

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Here's what we really excel at. We should excel at identifying sin, confessing sin, forgiving sin, being reconciled, and then maturing in grace so that we can grow in conformity to Christ.

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That's our expertise as Christians. And so we bring that dynamic, and it requires words.

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It requires confession. It requires prayer. It requires forgiveness. It requires a restoration that is a result of true repentance and faith and an opportunity to learn and to grow and develop dimensions of heart intimacy because you exercise muscles of your heart when you engage at that level.

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They actually bring you closer together, and you learn more tenderness and love for one another because you embrace each other in the love that you have both received from Christ.

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Amen. And we're going to our first break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Pastor Alan Dunn regarding marriage, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please, as always, at least give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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And I can understand with a topic like gospel intimacy in a godly marriage, whenever you have marriage as a theme in any way, there may be very deep and personal questions you might have, some very painful perhaps, and we wouldn't even want you to identify yourself in those cases.

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But if it's not a personal and private matter, though, if it's just a general question, a biblical question on marriage, a theological question on marriage, doctrinal question on marriage, please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. So don't go away. We will be right back with more of Pastor Alan Dunn right after these messages from our sponsors.

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A church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

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They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

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and always tell them that you heard about them from Chris Orensen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio we are now back with Pastor Alan Dunn of Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey we are discussing

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Part 2 of Gospel Intimacy in a Godly Marriage a topic we began on the 19th of August eight days ago and if you have any questions our email address is

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ChrisOrensen at gmail .com C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com

40:23

please as always give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter before we move on with any questions from me or from our listeners

40:35

Pastor Dunn tell us about the Couples Conference coming up at Trinity Baptist Church in Montville, New Jersey yeah the conference is scheduled to begin on Friday this

40:51

August the 30th there is a meal that we'll all be enjoying together that night and then the ministry of the word is scheduled for Saturday the 31st

41:04

Sunday September the 1st and then a spillover to a brief ministry on Monday September the 2nd that will precede a

41:15

Labor Day picnic so it's a it's a four day event and information concerning the details and registration and participation in the conference can be can be found at Trinity Baptist Church webpage online great and do you happen to have that handy that website?

41:38

you know I should well that's alright we can have you announce it later and if you could please let

41:48

Pastor Chansky know that I would love to have him return as a guest on Iron Trip and Zion Radio it's been a long time since I've interviewed him and I'd love to have him back yeah

41:56

I will try to communicate that message to him

42:02

I'll see him God willing this weekend and he's also scheduled to to fill in in my pulpit in my absence this coming

42:10

Lord's Day so I know that our paths will certainly cross Praise God well

42:17

I have a question for you if anything would be a buzz kill or something that would completely rob romance from a situation with a spouse is by using the word transaction but let me ask you about the transaction of gospel love yeah you know that term is part of what

42:47

I envision to be an exchange you know I've called it in the past an exchange of gospel commodities in other words

42:55

I'm bringing I want to do business here I want to do the business of restoring the relationship on a moral footing

43:03

I want to I want to transact those things that comprise the essentials of our commitment to Christ in the gospel and in so doing essentially what we're attempting to do at that point is to Christians is to reconfirm our identity in Christ as sinners who have been justified by grace through faith in Christ so let's let's get to the basics of our identity together as two believers in Jesus Christ who are forgiven through the blood of Christ and who have the power in the gospel which is the power of God under salvation we have the power of the of the

43:48

Holy Spirit who is our provision from the hand of the resurrected enthroned Christ we have the wherewithal with the gospel when it is applied by faith to reconstitute ourselves as it were in our union with Christ and our fundamental commitment to honor him in our marriage and so we touch base at the foundation of of our life in Christ our justification in Christ and then on the on the basis of that shared forgiveness in Christ let's work this let's work this issue out so I as a sinner confess you know those words that I said my spirit was angry the words were cutting

44:35

I displayed I displayed what is nothing other than the violation of the sixth commandment that's wrong on my part

44:42

I repent of that I want to to turn from that I want to learn to be obedient in my love for my wife will you please forgive me and then she brings to the table to the transaction that that commodity of forgiveness not and it's it's not necessarily at this point you know such an emotionally warm sort of thing it's an obedience to Christ as disciples

45:10

Peter I mean Jesus has asked if someone um sins against you seven times in a day

45:17

Jesus says you forgive him seven times seventy I mean someone sinning against you seven times a day that's somebody that you're living with that's somebody that has close proximity and what you're to do you're to obey

45:30

Christ and you are to extend forgiveness and you are to extend that forgiveness that is given to you from the cross and then by faith the repenter and the forgiver enact the gospel and then exchange those commodities so to build the relationship back into a a restored and reconciled relationship and you continue then to to you know to remind one another of that of the of your unity in Christ and you put away the sin and you you cultivate the fruit of repentance and you prosper on the dynamic of spiritual vitality in the relationship by you know by the fruit of repentance your words are are intentionally not cutting but but building up and restorative and you pray together you you you reestablish that that foundational identity that you have in Christ now

46:31

I know that uh first Corinthians thirteen has been uh perhaps especially in the lives and marriages or should

46:44

I say even weddings of non -believers it has been a hallmark and people don't people don't realize that the context of that is far broader than just for a wedding or a marriage uh but having said that there is an important uh aspect or teaching from that text about love keeps no record of wrongs and I know that uh in your section on the transaction of gospel love you are uh forbidding vengeance and and uh tell us about that because I think that um uh an argument between uh spouses very often the old dirt is flung up yeah and also perhaps give us some counsel on on when and when not that is to be brought up let me give you an example let's say a husband uh has a drinking problem and uh yeah you know he has had in his history moments where he is going off to uh bars and he has gotten into trouble he's gotten into fights and of course the wife months later catches him drinking again and is she not to bring that up but that's just one thought that is attached to keeping no record of wrongs and also uh no vengeance involved yeah well

48:13

I think um you know keeping no record um is is is

48:20

I mean we're not naive we we don't as you've just alluded to we don't we don't forget

48:26

I mean in the sense that you know we have a history um but in the sense that we don't keep accounts so as to occasion retaliation um we need to understand again if we're dealing with sin then it's

48:43

God's law that has been violated most essentially as David prays in Psalm 51 against thee and thee only

48:49

I have sinned and done what is wrong in thy sight even though you know he's confessing the sin of murder um and that you know in order to cover up the sin of adultery and cost the lives of of people under his charge

49:04

I mean yet he isolates and understands that sin is a violation of God's law an offense to uh to the holy to the holy

49:13

God and so in the face of our sin we have to put ourselves in the context of of who

49:21

God is and how does God respond to to sin now God responds to sin in wrath and that we image that in as image bearers when we are morally offended when we when we when we discover uh you know something that is wrong and especially if we are in some ways if we sense being victimized by that wrong we we generally respond with some sense of anger um our conscience is offended and and uh you know and and that's an image bearing dimension well what does

49:58

God do with with sin well he he's angry with it um and he has provided two places for the resolution of his anger one is in eternity of hell there is the outpouring of unmitigated wrath upon impenitent wicked men forever that's the

50:19

God who meets them in wrath without any mediator without any redeeming grace but the other place that God satisfies his wrath against sin is in the cross of Jesus Christ and there we have to put the offense that we've experienced against the backdrop of the cross of Jesus Christ or eternity in hell and if we see the sin in relation to the cross of Christ and our spouse is a

50:48

Christian then we realize as you mentioned earlier Chris I have been forgiven of my sin and my spouse is forgiven of her sin we have to we have to see the wrath of God propitiated in the cross and there's where it ends there's where it's satisfied there's where justice is achieved in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ if I'm dealing with an unbeliever and their sin is violating

51:16

I have to see them in the context of eternity in hell and when

51:22

I juxtapose their sin relative to the eternal wrath of God a Christian then should respond with a sense of compassion with a sense of concern and with a sense of entreaty and prayer so we don't keep counts wrong in the sense that we're not going to retaliate we're not going to have vengeance it's not ours to punish the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God James tells us

51:52

Paul at the end of Romans 12 tells us that vengeance is the Lord that we are to overcome evil with good we're to be peacemakers and it's the peace that has been established in the cross of Jesus Christ now that's not to say that if you're dealing with chronic issues and so forth that once the framework has been established that we're not bringing this up in order to argue or in order to fight but we're bringing it up in order to discover how it is that we can grow how it is that we can learn how it is that we can mature how it is that we can continue to demonstrate the fruit of repentance because the

52:40

Christian life is a constant repenting and a constant believing a constant working out of our salvation so it's not that we never talk about these things but we talk about them in the context of grace in the context of the gospel we have an anonymous listener who asks the last time

53:02

Pastor Dunn was on your program when asked if he believed that a person who divorces his spouse could that person ever remarry that same spouse and Pastor Dunn replied that that would be under many circumstances acceptable if my memory serves me right but I don't remember anyone asking the question that I'm asking now does

53:27

Pastor Dunn believe in the remarriage of someone who is divorced to someone else other than their first spouse so you're asking me is does the bible allow for divorce and remarriage yeah that's that's basically what the anonymous person is asking yeah

53:48

I believe I believe that that um there are essentially three justifications for um a a a a remarriage after a divorce but the back up before that Chris I think one of the things that we have to to answer is what is the definition of marriage what constitutes a marriage what makes a couple married in fact

54:20

I want you to pick up when we return from our midway break with that very thought because we have to go to our midway break which is a longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio 90 .1

54:32

FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us this longer break so that they can localize Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida with their own public service announcements and commercials so please be patient as we take this extended break during the middle portion of the show use this time wisely write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more successfully and more frequently patronize them because remember whenever you patronize one of our advertisers you are helping to further ensure a long life for Iron Trip and Zion Radio because our advertisers will more likely stick around and continue advertising with us and we rely upon their advertising dollars to exist so write down the information provided by our advertisers and also write down a question for Pastor Alan Dunn and send it to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

55:23

that's C -H -R -I -S A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com and as always give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

55:34

USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter that's

55:40

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com don't go away we'll be right back with Pastor Alan Dunn and more of our discussion on gospel intimacy in a godly marriage

55:59

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I love it and Chris Arnzen was there last year he's been there I think every year it's great to see him there you and I actually did some recordings in the lobby at that place which is a highlight tons of stuff going on tons of great speakers and no matter where you are in the building you will hear

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Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Hi, this is

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John Sampson pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the

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I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised

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Iron Sharpens Iron financially Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

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And remember it's Monday through Friday 10am to 4 .30pm Eastern Time when they man that phone line

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Always tell them that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio Before we return to our interview with Alan Dunn we just have some important announcements to make

01:11:00

First of all this coming weekend from Friday through Sunday Alan Dunn is speaking at Trinity Baptist Church in Montville, New Jersey for their

01:11:12

Couples Conference And if you want more details on this conference go to TrinityMontville .org

01:11:21

TrinityMontville .org That's TrinityMontville .org

01:11:27

And all of the information will be there including the phone number of Trinity Baptist Church in Montville, New Jersey if you need more details

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Also coming up just in a matter of a week or two my friend

01:11:40

Pastor Bruce Bennett of the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York is going to be having a debate with a

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Roman Catholic apologist Matthew Luke Broderick That is Saturday, September 7th 6 .30pm

01:11:57

at the Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York The theme is Is the Office of Pope Biblical?

01:12:04

Is the Office of Pope Biblical? Saturday, September 7th 6 .30pm at the

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Word of Truth Church Farmingville, Long Island, New York If you want more details wotchurch .com

01:12:19

wotchurch .com or call them at 631 -806 -0614 631 -806 -0614

01:12:28

Then coming up in December I am heading back to my old stomping grounds in New York City to the

01:12:34

Foundations Conference that's Thursday and Friday December 19th and 20th in the heart of the Christmas season I'm so thrilled to be going back to New York City during the

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Christmas season because that's my favorite place to be during the Christmas season and I'm also excited because the Foundations Conference is always excellent

01:12:50

This is for men in ministry leadership only one of the reasons for that is that it is a small venue less than 200 people can fit in this venue so if you have any intention to go please register quickly and tell them that you heard about them on Iron Trip and Zion Radio The speaking roster includes

01:13:10

Dr. Stephen J. Lawson Paul Washer Jeff Thomas Rev. Armin Tomasian Richard Colwell Jr.

01:13:17

and Andrew Quigley That's Thursday and Friday December 19th and 20th in Manhattan thefoundationsconference .com

01:13:25

thefoundationsconference .com Then in January I'm packing up my bags again but this time heading down south to Atlanta, Georgia more specifically

01:13:35

College Park, Georgia for the G3 Conference The G3 stands for Gospel, Grace, and Glory The event is held at the

01:13:44

Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia and they are expecting over 5 ,000 people they have that many attend every year and this year

01:13:56

I think the situation is going to be different I think they're going to have about 1 ,000 more than that but the theme is

01:14:03

Worship Matters and the roster as always is absolutely extraordinary the speakers include such men as Kosti Hinn who was just my guest the other day in fact he was my guest yesterday on Iron Trump and Zion Radio the nephew of the notorious charlatan and heretic

01:14:25

Benny Hinn and Kosti has renounced and repented of his

01:14:30

Word of Faith upbringing he is a Reformed Baptist pastor and a cessationist in Arizona now you've been hearing

01:14:37

James White promote the G3 Conference and mentioning that Kosti is in California well he just recently took a position in Arizona so that's a bit of an update and other speakers include

01:14:48

Derek Thomas, Dr. James R. White who I just mentioned Dr. Joel Beeke and Phil Johnson, the

01:14:56

Executive Director of Grace TU Ministries once again we have Paul Washer and Stephen J.

01:15:03

Lawson on the lineup at this conference my friend Todd Friel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, Dr. Tom Askell of Founders Ministries which is the

01:15:11

Calvinistic ministry in the Southern Baptist Convention Voti Baucom, one of the most powerful preachers on the planet

01:15:17

Earth and John MacArthur himself has been added to the lineup that's the reason

01:15:23

I think they're going to have over 6 ,000 this year or should I say this January rather than merely over 5 ,000

01:15:30

I really think they're going to have 1 ,000 more than they normally have because of the addition of John MacArthur if you want to join me there

01:15:37

Thursday January 16th through Saturday January 18th at the Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia go to g3conference .com

01:15:46

g3conference .com and I would strongly urge you as I keep reminding you if you have a business or parachurch organization

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I would strongly urge you to register not only to attend but to register for an exhibitors booth at the

01:16:03

G3 Conference I have always found it to be extremely beneficial and fruitful to have an exhibitors booth for Iron Trip and Zion Radio at the

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G3 Conference something wonderful has always happened every year I'm at the G3 Conference and that's no exaggeration

01:16:20

I've gained not only donors, financial donors from being there but I've gained new guests made new friends have been blessed by being reacquainted with old friends have been blessed by meeting listeners that I've never met before it's just a wonderful time so go to g3conference .com

01:16:41

g3conference .com to register finally if you love Iron Trip and Zion Radio you don't want us to disappear from the airwaves you count on us every day for very fascinating and exciting and interesting guests and topics sometimes that are never heard anywhere else and you have extra money well please if you don't want us to go away help us remain on the air go to irontripandzionradio .com

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I have helped people find churches all over the world including Australia and all kinds of states here in the

01:19:11

United States not only for people who have a need of a church home where they want to join and become a member, but also people who are looking for churches where they're going on vacation sometimes it's churches for their family, friends, and loved ones who are without a church, please send us an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:19:27

and put in the subject line by the way, I want to thank my friends at the

01:19:36

Covenant Protestant Reformed Church in Northern Ireland who just sent

01:19:41

Iron Trumpet and Zion Radio today a very generous check a donation for us and we want to thank them so much for their generosity and I hope that that starts a domino effect with other churches and people all over the

01:19:58

United States and all over the world who want to help us out they actually didn't send a check, they donated through the donation app at irontrumpetsionradio .com

01:20:10

click support and then click to donate now, that's how Covenant Protestant Reformed Church in Ballymena, Northern Ireland donated to us so thanks again brothers and sisters we love you and we look forward to being a benefit and a blessing to you as the weeks and months and years go by and now we look for your emails for questions or with questions for Pastor Alan Dunn during our discussion on gospel intimacy in a godly marriage and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:20:46

and Pastor Dunn, before the break, you were defining marriage yeah in regard to the whole question of divorce and remarriage,

01:20:58

I think it's helpful to take a step back and define marriage biblically it certainly isn't cohabitation or sexual intimacy or having kids or having a shared bank account the essence of marriage has to do with a covenant of having made vows and of having entered into a covenantal relationship, of course that isn't a proper reflection of Christ's love to the church that is a love that is expressed in covenant it makes promises, it keeps the promises and there are distinctive responsibilities and stewardships of maintaining that relationship now, if marriage is a covenant relationship, is it possible that that covenant can be broken that that covenant can be terminated and the scripture would have us understand certainly that death is a termination of that relationship and then that adultery is such a violation of that relationship it puts a bullet in the temple of that covenant union and although that is a justifiable warrant for the ending of that relationship, it's not necessary that someone particularly

01:22:26

Christians pursue divorce on that occasion because God raises the dead and there can be and I've seen often,

01:22:34

I mean not often but I have seen restoration of relationships after that kind of violence and then there's the matter of willful abandonment which there are different perhaps opinions on this third matter but I think that Paul speaks to that matter in 1

01:22:51

Corinthians 7 that the abandonment of a spouse where that covenant relationship is been destroyed that that then also brings a legitimate warrant for the ending of that relationship

01:23:09

By the way Anonymous if you give me of course off the air and an email your full name and mailing address you will receive a free copy of Gospel Intimacy in a

01:23:23

Godly Marriage by Alan Dunn and we want to thank our friends at Pillar and Ground Publications for donating these books but we also want to thank

01:23:32

CVBBS .com, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service who will actually be shipping the book out to you if you provide for us your full name and mailing address and of course we will keep you confidential as you have requested.

01:23:46

We have another anonymous question and it really dovetails perfectly from what you were just saying

01:23:57

Can a spouse rightfully in God's eyes divorce their spouse who may be imprisoned for many years if not life especially if they are guilty of the crime for which they are in prison?

01:24:12

Wow! You know you're getting into the weeds here that goes beyond my

01:24:17

I mean I would I would encourage the anonymous writer to to get involved in a

01:24:29

Biblical church and to seek specific pastoral ministry. I would think that the personal details of that particular situation would exceed the bounds of wisdom for me to try to make any sort of answer that would give that listener any real directive

01:24:47

That's very very difficult. I mean we can There are very very challenging providences but I think we are at least served in this format to try to establish some principles and defining point of references that give clarity to these issues

01:25:06

By the way we've got an email from Bart who is a member of Trinity Baptist Church in Montville, New Jersey and he said that he is going to assist me in arranging an interview with David Chansky.

01:25:18

Thanks a lot Bart and I'm sure you're looking forward to Pastor Dunn being with you this weekend

01:25:25

I know who Bart is and let's see here we have

01:25:33

Bobby in Hartsdale, New York and Bobby says in relationship to a marriage and to obviously raising children one thing that has puzzled me is that of course the well known commandment in the

01:25:53

Decalogue Honor thy father and mother sometimes raises questions that are not easily answered.

01:26:02

For instance there are parents that have been horribly abusive to their children and their spouses that may involve even sexual abuse that may involve unspeakable violence that may involve all kinds of satanic false teaching and the brainwashing of children or at least the attempts at doing that into all kinds of sinister and evil thoughts and ideologies and practices.

01:26:32

How does one apply this command in all of those cases? Wow. Wow. Again, I mean the details of these questions are very very challenging.

01:26:47

I mean is there any ever a case where a child specifically is to for all intents and purposes when people are observing the way the child views and acts with and treats his parent that is quite evil?

01:27:13

It may be viewed as that the child is not honoring his or her parent even though there may be some element of honor in there.

01:27:24

Is there ever a case in your opinion? I mean obviously there's all kinds of details as you're saying with specific marriages and families but do you think there's ever a case where a child, for instance,

01:27:36

I'm never speaking to my parent again because of some kind of deeply evil actions?

01:27:45

Well, again, I mean sin you're talking about deeply evil actions I mean sin has its repercussions there is such a thing as we already made mention relative to marriage.

01:27:56

I mean there is such a thing of the destruction of a relationship due to the death that is the result of sin.

01:28:11

I think as Christians we have to posture ourselves to be obedient to the

01:28:21

Fifth Commandment in terms of our principled love and respect for our parents but the intricacies of that relationship bring so many different factors to bear.

01:28:35

What is the nature of the evil? To what extent has there been a repair to the relationship?

01:28:44

Again, I mean maintaining an understanding again of Biblical love that it has the law of God as its backbone in Romans 13, 8 -10.

01:28:56

It has a manner of patience and grace that is seen in 1

01:29:02

Corinthians 13. And then it has the element of sacrifice, of self -sacrifice for the one loved and the seeking, the good and the holiness of the one loved.

01:29:13

Jesus teaches that in John 13, 34 -35 when we are as his disciples to be known by virtue of our love.

01:29:23

A lot of that when implemented in person relationships then brings along with it that love one another fervently from the heart that Peter talks about in his epistle that there is an emotional dynamic that accompanies the expression of love to love between human beings that's appropriate and right.

01:29:43

But there are different ways in which that love can be expressed in these sort of relationships.

01:29:50

You have to be principled, have a good conscience, order a relationship in a biblically obedient,

01:29:57

Christ -honoring way. Pray and be available and make yourself available to implement gospel grace and reconciliation and peace where you can.

01:30:11

As Paul says, as far as it depends upon you, be at peace with all men.

01:30:17

And sometimes, you know, you can only take things so far because a relationship isn't totally dependent upon one party.

01:30:27

We have Ronald in eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York who asks, can you lay out some boundaries that you think married couples should have in regarding, in regard to the friendships that the couples have with members of the opposite sex?

01:30:46

Wow. Well, I mean, I can tell you if you don't like my wife, you're not going to be much of my friend.

01:31:00

We kind of come as a package deal. There's, again,

01:31:08

I would think there probably would be people that have different nuances and different ways to respond to that.

01:31:18

I would think that whatever relationships one spouse has with anybody else, it certainly is as a married individual.

01:31:28

Whatever that relationship is, it is a relationship that the other spouse is aware of, is comfortable with, is invited into, that there's no, again, there's no separation.

01:31:42

There's no distance that develops because of a siphoning off of emotional energy or time or any occasion in which there would be resentment or anything like that.

01:31:58

Certainly, particularly if you're in a workplace situation, long -standing friendships from relationships before marriage,

01:32:08

I mean, certainly we have relationships with people. In terms of the opposite sex,

01:32:14

I would be very loathe to encourage much of that.

01:32:21

I don't think there's a lot of wisdom to cultivate any sort of emotional rapport in any way that would render a possibility of having your good, evil spoken of or opening you up to dimensions of infidelity.

01:32:41

I mean, there is a certain dimension of emotional infidelity that can transpire where you find more of an emotional affinity towards someone that's not your spouse, and we need to protect ourselves from that, and we need to be one flesh and invest ourselves in the spouse that God has given to us.

01:33:00

Our discipleship to Jesus Christ as married Christians is lived out in relationship to our spouse as a primary expression of our obedience to Christ.

01:33:12

We have B .B. in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania who asks, Should two ex -spouses ever be permitted to do something together with their children that does not involve the current spouses?

01:33:30

Again, I think that you would have to get the input of the current spouses. I think that you would have to, again, walk in a principled way with a good conscience, understand that things,

01:33:48

I would think, are not business as usual from the two divorced spouses relative to their children.

01:33:57

Again, I mean, the details and nuances of all of what that would entail would come into factor.

01:34:06

There may be some people that you could envision taking those roles who would be more comfortable with that than others.

01:34:15

Again, I mean, it's a matter of keeping a good conscience, being biblical, and seeking in that situation to both divorced parents being faithful to those children as best that they can.

01:34:32

Again, challenging questions. Yes, and it is always there's something always

01:34:43

I don't even know how to phrase it. On the one hand, when you see ex -spouses getting along well with their children, there's something to be thankful and grateful to God about that, that they are not pouring into their relationship with their children constant tension, heat, negativity, hate, and all kinds of things that very often accompany divorces.

01:35:13

You know, you see these ex -spouses getting together, you see their current spouses even getting along together with each other, the new husbands getting along with each other, the new wives getting along with each other.

01:35:25

There is always something unusual about the setting when you're at like a picnic or a gathering and you see the exes together, and even if they're getting along well, there's something a little unnerving about the situation, but at the same time

01:35:44

I can't help but think, well, it's certainly better that they're getting along than there being coldness and indifference and total separation.

01:35:58

Yeah, God hates divorce, Malachi tells us. I mean, divorce is a very damaging thing, and even when we can patch it over with civility and personal rapport, the fact of that trauma remains.

01:36:17

I think that maybe is what you're referring to, Chris, when you have this sense of a little bit of uneasiness, a little bit of apprehension when that situation is there and it's sad, but divorce is a very, very terrible thing.

01:36:37

Can I segue to the reference earlier where I made a comment about having a footnote about those imbalances of head -shaking?

01:36:46

Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah, and one of the things that is often so very offensive to unbelievers and those who have yet to come to a more...

01:37:03

to a greater appreciation for the biblical meaning and function of head -shaking and submission is the fact that more often than not, so often, we see head -shaking and submission in imbalanced forms and, of course, the perfect balance is

01:37:30

Jesus' relationship to the Church. The perfect balance is Christ and His loving and obedient Church, but when these two dynamics get distorted, they teeter in one or two different directions.

01:37:50

The one direction is what I've called the perversion of extremes, and that's where the head -shake and the submission are both taken to an extreme.

01:38:00

The man takes his head -shake to an extreme, and he becomes a domineering tyrant, and then, often coupled with that, the woman can take her head -shake to, rather, her submission to an extreme, and she becomes effaced, a non -entity.

01:38:16

She's a ghost presence in the house. She doesn't have a voice.

01:38:22

She's not contributing. Her industry is not benefiting the household, and everything is determined by the mood and by the actions of the tyrannical head who has taken his head -shake to an extreme.

01:38:40

That's one perversion. And then the other perversion is what I've called the perversion of inversion, and that's where the roles are reversed.

01:38:50

The head -shake is inverted, and he abdicates his head -shake.

01:38:58

He is absent. He's not engaged. He's not taking initiative.

01:39:05

He's not leading. And the wife in this inversion, perversion of inversion, well, she becomes a de facto head.

01:39:14

In these scenarios, you have a perversion, again, of the basic human relationship.

01:39:20

The perversion of inversion, which is very prominent in Western cultures, basically, the woman, the wife becomes a mother, and the husband becomes a son.

01:39:38

The rule and authority that is characteristic of the feminine partner is one of maternal, one of being a mother.

01:39:49

There's an alarm that goes off if you're talking to a couple, and you have some concerns, and she says to you, yeah,

01:39:57

I know he's got this, that, and the other, but he'll change when we're married.

01:40:03

He'll change because of my love. That could be an indicator that she's expecting to mother him.

01:40:09

She's expecting to train him as a mother would for her son, her child. Likewise, also, in the tyrant to the effaced wife, there you have this distortion of a father - daughter kind of thing that, you know, again, there's an imbalance in the relationship.

01:40:29

Both husband and wife are one. They are identical in their dignity, their identity, as image of God.

01:40:41

In that sense, there's equality. But in their function, in the economy, in the dynamic of the roles that the scriptures prescribe for the marriage relationship, there's differences, and there's diversities.

01:40:55

And the challenge for us is to exercise those roles and do our best to be balanced so that she helps him to be a biblical head, and he helps her to be biblically submissive.

01:41:14

And Christ is the one who teaches both headship and submission.

01:41:20

You find an interesting text in 1 Corinthians 11 3, I want you to understand

01:41:25

Christ is the head of every man. Man is the head of a woman. God is the head of Christ.

01:41:31

So Christ learns his headship by being submissive to Christ. And the woman learns her submission by seeing how

01:41:38

Christ is submissive to the father. So our discipleship is still gender distinctive.

01:41:45

We follow Christ as male disciples. We follow Christ as female disciples.

01:41:51

And our genders condition our marriage and family, condition our life in the church.

01:41:57

Paul makes it clear that he has different directives for the old and the young, for the male and the female there in Titus 2 and Titus 3.

01:42:06

So these creational issues still pertain to us in our identity as Christians.

01:42:14

And this area of headship and submission is often an area of conflict and confusion.

01:42:21

And if we can understand the biblical prescription for these roles, I think we can strive toward balance and moral and gospel beauty in our marriages.

01:42:33

And we are going to our final break. Please send us your email with your question, if you have one. ChrisArnson at gmail .com

01:42:40

ChrisArnson at gmail .com We're rapidly running out of time, so if you intend to send a question, send it now.

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S's in the middle. I hope to hear from you soon. God bless you. And don't forget, folks, keep praying for Joe Jakiewicz, the founder of First Love Radio, who was recently diagnosed with leukemia, and the prognosis is from his physicians that he has a 70 % chance of survival, and obviously that's good news, but it's also still scary.

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So please pray for him, not only that the great physician would completely heal him, either by a miracle or by guiding his doctors into the absolute best treatment available, but also pray that Joe is mentally, emotionally, and spiritually equipped to face this trial with the utmost of grace and poise and confidence in Christ and confidence in His word, that he may be a testimony to all surrounding him.

01:54:11

And we will give you updates on his health as we receive them. And this is the final portion of our interview with Alan Dunn of Grace Covenant Baptist Church.

01:54:21

We have been discussing Part 2 of Gospel Intimacy in a Godly Marriage, and Pastor Dunn, I wanted to ask you about the challenge of selfishness, which is obviously a key to all conflict.

01:54:36

Yeah, absolutely. It's at the very core of our identity as disciples of Jesus Christ.

01:54:45

Discipleship is the continued denying of self, taking up one's cross in order to follow

01:54:55

Christ in obedience to His commands. And again, as I mentioned earlier, for a married

01:55:02

Christian, the most immediate stage upon which our discipleship is played out is in our relationship to our spouses, so that there is a pursuit of Christ's will relative to our marriage relationship, relative to our fulfilling of the roles that the scripture prescribes to us, not of self, and of self then expanding also into the agendas and the worldviews of this present age.

01:55:33

A denial of self is a turning away from the gods of this age and the value systems that are contrary to scripture, and that is at the root of being willing to both confess your sin and to repent in order to do the will of Christ in relation to sin, not the will of self.

01:55:56

Amen. And if you could, one of the final sections of your book

01:56:03

I think deals with something important, and if you could address it in the moments that we have left, the challenge of unbiblical communication patterns.

01:56:12

Yeah. Well, our communication, our one flesh, the communication entails certainly the totality of who we are in our humanity.

01:56:26

Foremost under that heading would be our words, the communication of words, to speak the truth in love.

01:56:34

Part of that communication entails our physical intimacy, a communication that is unique to the marriage relationship.

01:56:44

But primarily it has to do, again, with communicating that which is conducive to the strengthening of faith, the nurturing of grace, and laboring together in service to Christ in the local church and the community so that we are word -based creatures.

01:57:04

And the words that we say to one another, particularly as you mentioned earlier about men and the responsibility of men speaking, the responsibility of leadership in words and love in words, the communication is a very essence of our marriage relationship, our parenting relationship, all of our personal relationships.

01:57:30

And finally, if you could, as briefly as possible, address the challenge of unavoidable death.

01:57:37

Yeah. You know, it's tough to cultivate one flesh union when the outer man is decaying, but if the inner man is being renewed day by day, we understand that the relationship of marriage is a harbinger of what is in store for us in Christ Jesus.

01:57:55

The institution of marriage will no longer pertain in the Resurrection.

01:58:01

However, the love that we foster as Christian couples has a quality that is of the age to come.

01:58:09

And I've often said, I look forward, God willing, to meet my wife in the future and in glory.

01:58:16

She'll no longer be my wife. She'll be my pure, glorified sister. And for us to be able nonetheless to say to each other, thank you.

01:58:26

In the strength of God's spirit, your love was used by Christ in order to help me to love

01:58:33

Christ, to serve Christ, to pursue sanctification. And the society that we will then be part of, all of us will enjoy an intimacy and a love and purity of fellowship that will far exceed even the best of marriages this side of the

01:58:51

Resurrection. Amen. And I want to make sure our listeners have your website for Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey.

01:58:59

It's gcbcnj .squarespace .com.

01:59:05

G -C for Grace Covenant, B -C for Baptist Church, N -J for New Jersey, .squarespace

01:59:11

.com. And don't forget about the conference this weekend, Friday through Sunday, at the Trinity Baptist Church of Montville, New Jersey.

01:59:17

And their website is trinitymontville .org, trinitymontville .org. Thank you so much,

01:59:23

Pastor Dunn, for being our guest today. I look forward to many future visits as my guest on Iron Trap and Zion Radio.

01:59:29

I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater