February 1, 2018 Show with Dewey Roberts on “Historic Christianity & the Federal Vision” (Part 2)

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. Lake City, Florida. And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arnz and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Thursday on this first day of February 2018.

And I'm delighted to have as a returning guest today. Someone who is continuing a subject that we began last Friday on a very very important issue and that issue is the federal vision and. So today a dr. Dewey Roberts who was my second guest last Friday after Doug Wilson who was Explaining in further detail why he departed from any identity with the federal vision.

Dewey Roberts was the second guest speaking on historic Christianity and the federal vision which is a the title of his book on federal vision. And Today since we only had Dewey on for a brief 25 minutes or so last Friday We knew that we needed to have him come back to give a fuller treatment of this very important subject for the full two hours.

So it is my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio. Dr. Dewey Roberts.

Thank you. Very well.

Let me right off the bat give our listeners our email address if you'd like to join us on the air. With a question of your own. I would actually love especially to hear from people who? Fully affirm the federal vision.

Not that I would love the fact that you are fully affirming that but I would love to hear From those who oppose what Dewey is saying today so that the program might be more balanced and not seem so One-sided on this issue and we would love to have Dewey actually respond to Reasons why people are still clinging to this Theology known as the federal vision, but but of course, I'm not restricting our Questions only to those who agree with the federal vision.

Anybody even if you're not a Christian. We would love to hear from you at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris A-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And Why don't you tell our listeners again about Cornerstone Presbyterian Church in Destin, Florida.

Thank You Chris. I'm the past invite anyone who's in the area to come in and your congregation is in the Presbyterian Church in America. Denomination, correct? Yes, that's right. We are in the PCA. I'm 42 years.

I was ordained in 1976 and.

Typically when we have a first-time guest on our interpreters on radio I know this is your second time with us but the last time your first appearance on this program was very very brief and we did not have time to.

Get some of your background, but I would love to give I would love to have you give a summary of the religion of your upbringing the religion of your youth if any that your parents raised you in and how providentially our Sovereign Lord got a hold of you and Drew you to himself and saved you and perhaps even if you could tell us how you came to embrace reform theology that I.

My wife and I both I have gone to a Baptist. The Methodist Church was really the.

Denomination of my parents. Was it a liberal Methodist or was it more of an evangelical Bible-believing Methodist?

My family Don Patterson. That's quite a historic church. Also. Yes, it is. I ended up becoming of my meeting him. He came and I was invited to come down so I went down there and the John Wesley's theology.

The other was a people that a Methodist College is Responsible for. I knew that I needed to leave. Well, praise God and.

Defining the Federal Vision and Its Claims

Let's get now right to the the book. This is a very sensitive subject. I have friends on both sides of this issue pro and con when it comes to the federal vision and there also seems to be among them a Varying degree of Understanding of what that actually means.

There are some of my friends.

Who.

Boldly and unwaveringly Declare that they are federal visionists and yet they also Make very clear Pronouncements that they are believers in sola fide justification by faith alone and they would believe be believers in unconditional election just as the rest of the Calvinistic world throughout the centuries Has believed since the 16th century Reformation.

And of course, we would believe that Bible-believing Christians of all generations. There was at least a remnant who who believed in unconditional election if not by that name, but please. For the sake of those who are just tuning in To this program for the very first time they didn't hear perhaps Doug Wilson or you or even John Otis.

Who was on? Just the day before yesterday on the same subject. Please give a definition of how you believe.

Federal vision should be rightly understood. I think it's like Christ said you could love the one was always on things. Not what they said Doug Wilson. He even an article said comes down. He gives us a whole new heart.

He gives us a new heart. Yeah, he did. That almost sounds like the Arminian idea of a spark of goodness or.

Even beyond Arminianism that Pelagianism. What? Yes, I believe that there's some kind of spark within us or something.

Yeah, and then this is natural when it comes down to earth. Where does he find that inscription. Wouldn't wouldn't would you not think that. I mean, I want a broad brush, but it seems.

To be at least an existing thread among those who profess to be federal visionists that they are the ones that more resemble having Gnostic tendencies because they claim to have some kind of Knowledge about the faith and salvation that has been absent from reformed theology for centuries.

I.

Think that papers in my book the next to last. You're exactly right because I've known people of Gnosticism.

Yeah.

Everybody else outside does not. And by the way.

I think I should point out or remind our listeners that Doug Wilson was interviewed last Friday and you can go to that if you didn't hear his Interview already. You can go to it afterwards because he is claiming that he Has one of the key reasons he denounces identity with the federal vision Is the very fact that that two of its at least two of its primary Leaders or at least those who are recognized as their leaders at least two of them Jim Jordan and Peter Lightheart have denied that such a thing as regeneration exists, so.

It's kind of interesting that quote that you gave. I don't know if that means that Doug Has returned to a historic reformed understanding and a biblical understanding of regeneration or.

I.

Don't know what to make of that. It's it's hard for me to say without him here, obviously.

Yeah, Chris, whether it's up on Doug never. Last week's supernatural.

Well, isn't. The only natural regeneration that's going to come to us was when we rise from our graves at the last day. I mean, how else could you call anything natural regeneration?

Yeah, but that's what he says. He says the result he doesn't and of course just because he didn't say that specifically last Friday.

It does not mean that he does not agree with us now.

That's right. That's right. Maybe he has come along to our and of course, I think that we should probably primarily focus on those who are still.

Boldly unwaveringly. Unapologetically involved in federal vision who make no bones about their involvement in this movement when it comes to the quotes that you're providing.

Let me give you that's one of the five. Yes purpose was in the book as I had read old regeneration preliminary and then two chapters.

One thing that I can say and I don't know if he ever changed his opinion. But I remember years ago when I had a conversation with Steve Schlissel about the federal vision.

He.

Said that he was uncomfortable with statements made by those in his camp.

About.

Baptismal regeneration. He told me he did not feel comfortable with that language. I don't know if you have any evidence that he ever joined them in speaking in those terms, but he seemed to be.

Distancing himself from that specific element of it. I think all of them changing it out the next in fact.

Why don't you give us those quotes when we return from our first break because we have to go to a break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

We still do have a few of you waiting to have your questions asked and answered and we will get to as many of you as we can as Many as time will allow but if anybody would like to join them and get in line.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris a RN z en at gmail .com. Whether you agree with our guest Dewey Roberts where there you disagree with him and you think that Federal vision theology is completely in accord with the Holy Scriptures and with historic reform theology then please send us an email and cite why you disagree with Dewey on this and Anybody.

Whether you are a Christian whether you are a Jew whether you are an atheist. Whatever you happen to be if you have a question. We would love to hear from you at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris a RN z en a gmail .com.

Give us your first name city and state And country of residence unless you want to remain anonymous because your purse your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away God willing. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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This is Chris Arns and if you just tuned us in our guest today For the full two hours with about 90 minutes to go is dr. Dewey Roberts. And today we are entering into part two of a discussion that we began with him last Friday after our discussion with Doug Wilson and.

This involves dr. Roberts book Historic Christianity and the federal vision. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arns and at gmail .com chris arn ze energy mail .com.

Please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA and dr. Roberts if you could. Continue where you left off. You were going to offer us some quotes.

Yes, you know. Talking about baptismal regeneration we have to understand actually do. Oh, he's talking about the Covenant that you could actually take a picture.

Yeah of somebody entering into the Covenant because it is a visible tangible Physical thing that we can see.

Yes, so he's making it so. What the federal I could give you. Quote life.

And of course, of course, I think we should bring up at this point since you mentioned NT, right? Nearly every single person not every but nearly every single person that I know that is involved with federal division says that we who are opponents of it wrongly blur the distinctions between.

NT writes new perspective on Paul and the federal vision. The doctrine of selling someone into the new life. It's united to cry of a lifelong. So then those who are.

In the Salvation Army and some other groups that that do not practice water baptism although we would strongly disagree with them you and I as reformed Christians We would not go to the extent to say that they.

Necessarily are not Christians. In fact, I was baptized. You'll like this.

As a Baptist, yes, I I'm happy but but but it is interesting that these pedo Baptists are all speaking in terms of the mechanics of a Baptist immersion if you will. The way that they're describing their baptisms is not The way that they actually baptize children or babies.

Right. Yeah, that is an impression, right? And one of the things that's interesting about what you're saying is that.

There are some ways in which federal visionists might resemble our brethren who are Lutherans and yet on another note they are very very different from our brethren who are Lutherans because our Lutherans are Lutheran brethren, and I don't mean the denomination Lutheran brethren, although we have brethren among the Lutheran brethren.

But you know your Missouri Synod Lutherans and so on your Wisconsin Synod another Christians in that those denominations. They are very meticulous and the the pillar of their existence is justification by faith alone.

Right you get off in the listing right. Right in his denomination. But once again by baptism since he is the beloved on that which is right.

We would believe that it's power the foundation of the world. Obviously you and I and all reformed Christians for his for centuries and the scriptures themselves especially teach that Election was before the foundation of the world.

Yeah, they say that you are covenantally. Oh, you might think well, that's just something outward, but then they say and If you continue to persevere in that and you received all these benefits and blessings by your baptism fight in baptism.

You are sanctified light-hearted. And perhaps we could now move on from.

Baptismal regeneration to actually get at some of the more critical issues. I mean you did touch on a Twisting or out and out denial of unconditional election, but also of course a denial of justification by faith alone.

Seems to be the most serious charge. That those outside of federal vision would hurl against those who are.

Adherents of it. Why don't we why don't we go?

To the area of justification by faith alone and how it is clear from your quotes that you have that key.

Adherents to the federal vision are actually either blurring that or outright denying that and not by now.

Would you say that James when he is using the term? I don't know what the original Greek term is, but the the term that has been translated. I believe in every single English translation. When James is using justification, is he not talking about justification before men and not by God?

Yes, he's talking about it's not evidenced by he's not. Contrasting. In fact what James said one thing I found about you mean justification my works.

I think you meant to say am I right?

Now he said would be justification. Justification he calls it justification.

Well, but he calls it justification by faith.

Well, he calls it let me back up. He calls it justification, right? Yeah, you said faith.

That's why I wanted to have you clarify because he calls it justification.

He says we are justified then we get in. That almost sounds like the Seventh-day Adventist heresy of the investigative judgments.

But anyway, I'm sorry.

Well, it's right. You have every person and so this final justification is not Christian.

In fact, I'm gonna read a question for you before we go to our midway break that relates exactly to what you just said.

Okay.

And then we have to go to the break and we'll have you answer this when we return. This is from Joe in Slovenia. He says. Dear brothers Chris and Dewey. Thanks for taking my question. I'm very ignorant about the details of federal vision and I'm also fuzzy about John Piper's teaching of final Salvation based on works.

Are these two teachings similar or related in some way. If so. How. If not, why not. And of course, I don't know if you're familiar with what John Piper said about that. But we'll have you answer that when we return from the break if anybody else would like to join us and we already still have.

Several waiting but our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. God willing. We are going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Orrins, and if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with just about an hour to go.

Is.

Dr. Dewey Roberts, we are discussing his book historic Christianity in the federal vision. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. See HR is a RN Z and a gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Let's say you disagree with the federal vision and you are in a church that Adheres to it or the reverse.

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Send me an email to Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line. That's also the email address where you could send a check for. I'm sorry. That's also the email just where you could send a question for our guest Dewey Roberts right now on the federal vision.

That's Chris Arnson at gmail .com and Dr. Roberts before the break as you recall our listener Joe in Slovenia Says. I'm very ignorant about the details of federal vision and I'm also fuzzy about John Piper's teaching on final Salvation based on works.

Are these two teachings? Similar or related in some way. If so, how. If not, why not?

First of all, let me say for make sure that he oh, wow, if you can just that. Oh sure. In fact, I think that I.

Perhaps I didn't. I thought that I emailed you his question, but perhaps I didn't. I'll make sure I get it to you though.

Okay, and Concerning dr. Piper that dr. Piper want to be very careful what I'm saying. You do think that he is being undiscerning. It sound like it's something else. It's really by work. She's trying to counter in T wrong and make correct came out with the dr. Piper.

Look at this before I went to print.

Sorry for laughing at that but that that wasn't very fair. Now was it?

Well, but I'm just saying that I have found your gloves. Wow.

Yeah, the thing that's interesting is that the reason why they rose into existence is because they were saying that the majority of the Traditional Reformed community the churches within historic Calvinistic theology are wrong.

They missed the boat. They somehow went off the rails and they are seeking to restore what they believe biblical Christianity is so therefore their reason for existence begins with a strong rebuke and critique of Those that would be Considered Mainline Reformed Christians, I don't mean mainline like the liberal mainline denominations.

I'm talking about those that are more Traditional and mainstream it within the Calvinistic camp. So there so am I right in saying that? Oh, yes, you are.

And particular max of modern evangelical, by the way, I want to.

Make a quick Disclaimer of sorts, but I don't want it to be a rabbit trail or something that takes us away from the subject at hand. But I don't know if you would agree with this, but you said basically that you were being critical of John Piper for having Doug Wilson speak at conferences and Publicly applauding him now.

I have heard many outside of the federal vision Even those that would be opposed to it from the Reformed camp from the historically Traditional Reformed camp that think that Doug in many ways on on many issues is brilliant.

They they may disagree with him on some ambiguity in these areas that we're discussing but they would say that he is amazingly Articulate on on a number of issues. Would you concur with that or would you disagree with that?

I think that he is a good. I have not found. I could not call. Nice work. Well, let's not dwell on him now.

I just wanted to make that right clear that that it's not like everybody in the in the traditional Reformed camp thinks that he is Totally off base on everything or anything close to that. But let's get to some more specific quotes because I did want this program to be more filled with quotes than anything else right from the horse's mouth as they say.