February 1, 2018 Show with Dewey Roberts on “Historic Christianity & the Federal Vision” (Part 2)

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Now here's our host Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Thursday on this first day of February 2018 and I'm delighted to have as a returning guest today someone who is continuing a subject that we began last

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Friday on a very very important issue and that issue is the federal vision and so today

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Dr. Dewey Roberts who was my second guest last Friday after Doug Wilson who was explaining in further detail why he departed from any identity with the federal vision.

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Dewey Roberts was the second guest speaking on historic Christianity and the federal vision which is the title of his book on federal vision and today since we only had

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Dewey on for a brief 25 minutes or so last Friday we knew that we needed to have him come back to give a fuller treatment of this very important subject for the full two hours so it is my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Dr.

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Dewey Roberts. Thank you very much Chris I'm very happy to be here again. Let me right off the bat give our listeners our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own

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I would actually love especially to hear from people who fully affirm the federal vision not that I would love the fact that you are fully affirming that but I would love to hear from those who oppose what

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Dewey is saying today so that the program might be more balanced and not seem so one -sided on this issue and we would love to have

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Dewey actually respond to reasons why people are still clinging to this theology known as the federal vision but of course

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I'm not restricting our questions only to those who agree with the federal vision anybody even if you're not a

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Christian we would love to hear from you at chrisarnsen at gmail .com c -h -r -i -s a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com

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please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and why don't you tell our listeners again about Cornerstone Presbyterian Church in Destin Florida.

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Thank you Chris I'm the pastor of Cornerstone Presbyterian Church in Destin Florida and this is a church which

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God enabled me to start a number of years ago and our primary mission of course is to proclaim the gospel and according to our understanding of reformed soteriology the doctrine of salvation which is the great message of the bible and we invite anyone who's in the area to come and worship with us on Sunday mornings we meet for worship at 10 30.

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And your congregation is in the Presbyterian Church in America denomination correct? Yes that's right we are in the

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PCA I've been a PCA minister for 42 years I was ordained in 1976.

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And typically when we have a first time guest on Iron Trip and Zion Radio I know this is your second time with us but the last time your your first appearance on this program was very very brief and we did not have time to get some of your background but I would love to I would love to have you give a summary of the religion of your upbringing the religion of your youth if any that your parents raised you in and how providentially our sovereign lord got a hold of you and drew you to himself and saved you and perhaps even if you could tell us how you came to embrace reformed theology.

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Great I'll be glad to do that I my wife and I both grew up in the Methodist Church when we lived in Winston -Salem,

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North Carolina. I had gone to a Baptist Church when I was younger but the

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Methodist Church was really the denomination of my parents. Was it a liberal

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Methodist or was it more of an evangelical bible -believing Methodist? It was liberal

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Methodist we never heard the gospel being preached in the congregation and the social gospel was very prominent at that time and then we moved to my family moved from Winston -Salem,

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North Carolina to Jackson, Mississippi in my senior year and we started going to a

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Methodist Church there as well but God was working in my heart and life and through reading some

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Billy Graham materials and other Christian books I came to saving faith in the

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Lord Jesus and interestingly at that time

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I came across a Presbyterian minister shortly after I was converted who was the pastor of First Presbyterian Church in Jackson, Mississippi.

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He's now deceased and gone to be with the Lord his name is Don Patterson. That's quite a historic church also.

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Yes it is. I ended up becoming a member of that congregation as a result of my meeting him.

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He came to the junior college where I was attending at the time and he was preaching a religious emphasis week and it was preaching like I'd never heard before after all those years of being in a liberal

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Methodist church and so I was very interested in that. I spoke with him in private about things and I remember him speaking about the beauty of the doctrines of the

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Presbyterian Church and the greatness of the Westminster Confession of Faith and it kind of piqued my interest but I remained in the

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Methodist Church for a while that I would attend the college fellowship at his church on Sunday evenings but I would go to my church on Sunday mornings and it's interesting that there was a professor at a liberal

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Methodist college in Jackson by the name of Bill Saps and he went to the same

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Methodist church that I did in Jackson, Mississippi and he told me one day he said, the minister died and his wife, his widow has given a lot of books to the you're invited to come down there and to look through those books and to see which ones you would like to take.

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So I went down there and two books stood out to me. One of them was a compound of John Wesley's theology.

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The other was a compound of Calvin's Institutes and so I thought okay this will settle the issue for me.

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I'm going to read these men and see what they say and Wesley was philosophizing in various matters of theology and Calvin would say, and thus says the

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Lord and that just kept being driven into my mind and so through that I became a

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Calvin Calvinist and so I often tell people that a Methodist college is responsible for me being a

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Calvinist today and very interesting in God's providence how he worked that out, but after that I knew that I needed to leave the

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Methodist church and I went to become a member of First Presbyterian Church in Jackson, a great historic church and from there

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I went through Belhaven College, Reformed Theological Seminary and into the ministry of the

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Presbyterian Church in America. Well praise God and let's get now right to the the book.

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This is a very sensitive subject. I have friends on both sides of this issue pro and con when it comes to the federal vision and there also seems to be among them a varying degree of understanding of what that actually means.

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There are some of my friends who boldly and unwaveringly declare that they are federal visionists and yet they also make very clear pronouncements that they are believers in sola fide, justification by faith alone, and they would believe be believers in unconditional election just as the rest of the

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Calvinistic world throughout the centuries has believed since the 16th century reformation and of course we would believe that the

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Bible believed in Christians of all generations. There was at least a remnant who who believed in unconditional election if not by that name but please for the sake of those who are just tuning in to this program for the very first time they didn't hear perhaps

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Doug Wilson or you or even John Otis who was on just the day before yesterday on the same subject.

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Please give a definition of how you believe federal vision should be rightly understood.

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I think the simplest and clearest definition of the federal vision is it is a scheme of works salvation based on both ceremonial and moral works seeking to attain righteousness through them because you have both aspects of that in the federal vision.

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You have the moral works and their idea of covenant faithfulness, final justification, and things like that and then you have the ceremonial in their doctrine of baptism where they say that everything that Christ has to give to us is given in water baptism.

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With reference to Doug Wilson what he said last week I do want to say that I think that Doug Wilson is probably the best press secretary for the federal vision that could ever be obtained but if Doug Wilson believes the things that he said on the show last week then he's in conflict with some of the quotes that I can give to you today from his writings and from his magazine.

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One thing that I found about the federal vision people is that they don't want to deny that they are reformed but it's like Christ said about having two masters you either love the one and not the other you serve the one and not the other and the one thing

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I've done is investigate what is it that really is the heartbeat of the people in the federal vision.

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I haven't read every article that's on the Doug's former magazine that he used to send out the credenda agenda but I read a lot of them.

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I never saw anything in there that was upholding the reformed faith that was dealing with the doctrine of election that was talking about the certain perseverance of the saints that dealt with the imputation of Christ righteousness as necessary to our salvation that was showing unconditional election none of those things was always on things that were nipping away at it in the opposite direction and so what

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I have to conclude about all of these people is that it's not what they say when they're backed into a corner and say oh yes

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I believe in the reformed faith it's really what they teach what do they spend their time focusing on is it the gospel or is it something else and I found that it's something else it's this thing called the federal vision and so I could

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I want to Chris give you a quote from Doug Wilson he said on the show last week that he believed in personal regeneration this is what he said in an article in the credenda agenda magazine and he it was an article that was really trying to discount the whole matter of personal regeneration and even an article said that when the bible talks about regeneration it talks about it in terms of the regeneration of the whole cosmic and so this is what he said in that article he said if you assume that in the supernatural act of regeneration

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God comes down and implants a grace note in your heart then this is a form of gnosticism and it helps perpetuate that pestilent nature grace dualism but if you hold that the act of regeneration is supernatural and that the results are entirely natural then this is not gnostic now first of all where does he come up with this idea that regeneration is

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God giving us some grace note he gives us a whole new heart he gives us a new heart yeah a grace note

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I've never heard anybody say that in regeneration but then to that that almost sounds like the

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Arminian idea of a spark of goodness or even beyond Arminianism that Pelagianism would yes believe that there's some kind of spark within us or something yeah and then this distinction between it's supernatural in heaven it's natural when it comes down to earth where does he find that in scripture you know so that's something that argues against his view of of a regeneration that he espoused last week because this is speaking very much against it and within an article where he was quoting from this liberal historian

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I think out of Yale University and that guy was talking about how evangelical

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Christianity is eaten up with gnosticism and Doug Wilson was buying into all of that argumentation and so he was castigating those of us in reform theology wouldn't wouldn't would you not think that I mean

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I want to broad brush but it seems to be at least an existing thread among those who profess to be federal visionists that they are the ones that more resemble having gnostic tendencies because they claim to have some kind of knowledge about the faith and salvation that has been absent from reform theology for centuries

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I do think that they they're the ones that have gnosticism in their system and that's one of the chapters in my book it's the next to last chapter is is on how the federal vision is very very gnostic in its makeup and people should read that chapter and see and I think they will be able to identify that it's a peculiar type of gnosticism that is more judaistic in nature because the federal vision is more judaistic in nature rather than christian but you're exactly right because I've known people have gone to these federal vision men and tried to talk to them one -on -one and they would always be told by the federal vision guys you're just not understanding us right and I say well if it's so difficult that trained theologians cannot understand you but you think you can preach it to babes in christ and they'll understand it completely then this is some form of gnosticism where only the initiates understand it yeah everybody else outside does not and by the way

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I think I should point out or remind our listeners that Doug Wilson was interviewed last Friday and you can go to the if you didn't hear his interview already you can go to it afterwards because he is claiming that he has one of the key reasons he denounces identity with the federal vision uh is the very fact that that two of it at least two of its primary uh leaders or at least those who are recognized as their leaders at least two of them

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Jim Jordan and Peter Lightheart have denied that such a thing as regeneration exists so it's kind of interesting that quote that you gave

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I don't know if that means that Doug has returned to a historic reformed understanding and a biblical understanding of regeneration or I I don't know what to make of that um uh it's it's hard for me to say without him here obviously yeah

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Chris whether it's out pondered over that statement many times and in the context of the article Doug never last week said that he believed in supernatural regeneration the emphasis being on supernatural and in this quote here he distinguishes between supernatural with respect to God natural when it comes down to man there's no such thing as natural regeneration well isn't the only natural regeneration that's going to come to us was when we rise from our graves at the last day

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I mean how else could you call anything natural regeneration yeah but that's what he says he says the results are entirely natural entirely natural well nothing about regeneration is entirely natural because Christ said you must be born again that is you must be born of the spirit you must be born from God you must not be born just by the natural thing that comes from birth and so he doesn't endorse he did not endorse supernatural regeneration last week he did not say that and that's a question that Doug's going to have to answer does he affirm it is entirely supernatural if he does not then he's still not in our camp and of course just because he didn't say that specifically last

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Friday does not mean that he does not agree with now that's right that's right maybe he has come along to our position that the scripture holds but if so then it's incumbent upon one who's a teacher as James says the teachers incur a stricter judgment it's incumbent upon him to go through and make a series of retractions and recantations of the false things that he's taught before and this particular quote is one of those things he's calling those of us he's first of all falsely caricatured caricaturing us as being people who believe that God gives us some grace note we've never said that but then he's calling us in that article people who are gnostic because we believe that so he needs to recant of that if he's going to uh hold to supernatural regeneration now and of course i think that we should probably primarily focus on those who are still boldly unwaveringly unapologetically involved in federal vision who make no bones about their involvement in this movement when it comes to the quotes that you're providing yeah let me give you a quote here from joel garver he's not one of the ones that was mentioned by doug last week on this matter of regeneration but listen to this quote we do not baptize because the one to be baptized is already regenerate rather we baptize in order that the one who is baptized be made regenerate so there garver is teaching baptismal regeneration and that's one of the fundamental errors of the federal vision but in my book if i can give just a overview first of all of what my yes purpose was in the book as i had read various things by different people who had dealt with this problem of the federal vision the one conclusion i came away with was that most people had restricted their study of the subject to four five or six different aspects and yet the federal vision was more multifaceted than that it encompassed more doctrines across the whole spectrum of the doctrine of salvation and that all of that had to be dealt with and for instance nobody had really gone into any great depth about the view of the false view of grace which the federal vision people have and so what i did was that i went from the very beginning to the end their view of covenant theology their view of baptismal regeneration baptismal efficacy and then got into the whole matter of soteriology and i said last week that i pulled regeneration out of this what i originally wanted to have two sections preliminary and then soteriology and i pulled regeneration out and put it at the beginning because if you don't have supernatural regeneration by the holy spirit then you don't have supernatural christianity everything it becomes natural without supernatural regeneration and so it's the most important and so i have 22 chapters that go through each aspect of what the federal vision believes and deals with them in terms of what does the scripture say about this in response what do the reformed creed say about it and what do the great theologians of the church say about these same things now and then feel free to jump in and ask me a question anytime chris but otherwise i'll continue on here i wanted to give you this is the view of grace that the federal vision has some people don't understand this because the reformed faith is a view of grace this is what peter lightheart said about grace if grace is the favor of god manifested in the bestowal of favors then baptism is and confers grace the grace of standing in the house of god the grace of membership in the community of the reconciled the grace of immersion in the history of the bride of christ the grace of god's favorable regard upon us there's something missing in all that and that is they never look at he doesn't look at it i found it was true of the federal vision people i've read on this subject they don't look at it in terms of that saving relationship that we have when we enter into a new relationship with christ that is permanent and lasts forever and so they fall short on that and then steve wilkins said this about grace the grace of god is not that blue pepsi gatorade stuff that really juices up your system it's favor it means being in a favorable and receiving the favor of god and that is only found in christ he was the one whom god favored he is the beloved of the father and it is in him that we are granted favor as well now now he says that it's in christ but of course in other places then he says we have this in christ only because we are baptized we get all this through being baptized and then we have all this that christ has to give us but we can lose it and so that's a great concern but in their definition of grace they don't define it in terms of saving grace they define it in terms of favor not saving grace and so that was a something that was errant on their part from the very beginning they're starting at a different point we have to understand that uh one thing that i can say and i don't know if he ever changed his opinion but i remember years ago when i had a conversation with steve schlissel about the federal vision he said that he was uncomfortable with statements made by those in his camp about baptismal regeneration he told me he did not feel comfortable with that language i don't know if you have any evidence that he ever joined them in speaking in those terms but he seemed to be uh distancing himself from that specific element of it well i think all of them have distanced themselves from a one form of baptismal regeneration and it's because they they began to see that if they held consistently to what they were saying then every person who is baptized would end up ultimately in heaven according to their view of things they at one time said that every person who is in christ gets everything that christ has to get including perseverance uh and in the trial of peter lightheart by pacific northwest presidentary the the court convinced him that he had to change his position on perseverance and so he says in the trial documents that they had been convinced of that and he he now says you get everything except perseverance then they started changing it up and they would say you get everything that christ has to offer and if you persevere in it you'll be saved for instance let me give you some quotes from them on baptismal regeneration in fact why don't you give us those quotes when we return from our first break because we have to go to a break right now if anybody would like to join us on the air our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

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we still do have a few of you waiting to have your questions asked and answered and we will get to as many of you as we can as many as time will allow but if anybody would like to join them and get in line our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

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chris a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com whether you agree with our guest dewey roberts whether you disagree with him and you think that federal vision theology is completely in accord with the holy scriptures and with historic reform theology then please send us an email and cite why you disagree with dewey on this and anybody whether you are a christian whether you are a jew whether you are an atheist whatever you happen to be if you have a question we would love to hear from you at chris arnzen at gmail .com

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chris a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com give us your first name city and state and country of residence unless you want to remain anonymous because your person your question involves a personal and private matter don't go away god willing we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors i am chris arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio here to tell you about an exciting offer from world magazine my trusted source for news from a christian perspective try world at no charge for 90 days and get a free copy of rc sproul's book relationship between church and state i rely on world because i trust the reporting i gain insight from the analysis and world provides clarity to the news stories that really matter i believe you also find world to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets armed with this coverage world can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community this trial includes bi -weekly issues of world magazine on -scene reporting from world radio and the fully shareable content of world digital simply visit wng .org

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that's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from solid ground solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio hi i'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m

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eastern time on wlie radio www .wlie540am .com

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we bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions our time will be lively useful and i assure you never dull join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor welcome back this is chris arnes and if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with about 90 minutes to go is dr dewey roberts and today we are entering into part two of a discussion that we began with him last friday after our discussion with doug wilson and this involves dr roberts book historic christianity and the federal vision if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

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chrisarnsen at gmail .com please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the usa and dr roberts if you could continue where you left off you were going to offer us some quotes yes you know talking about baptismal regeneration we have to understand that the federal vision people whether they think they do or not actually do believe in one of the two views of of baptismal regeneration and you can't really understand the federal vision unless you know that they believe in baptismal regeneration and for instance the one of the great theologians of the church samuel miller said that there were two views of baptismal regeneration that have been held by protestants he said the first theory is that the inward grace of regeneration always accompanies the outward sign of baptism and so this first theory emphasizes the subjective experience of grace through the operation of the holy spirit the other view is that it's objective in nature you don't have the inward grace of regeneration which is subjective in nature you have this objective experience that identifies you as a member of the church and if you'll remember chris last week that's what doug wilson was alluding to when he said that that forget the word he was talking about he said that it's like a snapshot you can see it happening oh he's talking about the covenant that you could actually take a picture yeah of somebody entering into the covenant because it is a visible tangible physical thing that we can see yeah so he's making it objective in nature that is still a view of baptismal regeneration according to samuel miller and historic reform theology it's one aspect of it and so what the federal vision people do is that they think they have moved away from baptismal regeneration by no longer holding to supernatural regeneration being bestowed through baptism but they hold to this objective form and type of baptismal regeneration and that's very involved in all of the whole system but i could give you quotes and i'm going to give you some here from various people from norman shepherd steve wilkins uh nt right and others and they all make the point of how baptism is the defining moment in the person's life and of course of course i think we should bring up at this point since you mentioned nt right uh nearly every single person not every but nearly every single person that i know that is involved with federal division uh says that we who are opponents of it wrongly blur the distinctions between nt rights new perspective on paul and the federal vision yes uh and that's may be correct in some ways but that's an incorrect statement in other ways because as i studied out this matter and looked at nt rights views of the doctrine of salvation i found that at every single point he lines up exactly with the same place that the federal vision takes on the same issues whether it's election or perseverance or final justification or justification by faith or whatever he's always in the same place theologically as others are so in that respect we're not blurring any distinction they're failing to see that there is no distinction between their view on sociology and his view the difference is that nt right comes at this whole matter from a different perspective he he comes at it from this new perspective on paul that was begun by liberal theologians and talking about what were the jews like when they came back from the captivity in babylon and syria what were they like when they came back and so he says that they had undergone a change and that they were no longer a graceless community or believing that that you had to be saved by works so he comes at it from a different perspective but they end up at the same point when they come to the doctrine of salvation whereas the federal vision people come at it from the question of what is it that happens when my little child is baptized that's their starting point so yes the peripheral issues are different between them the core issues are 100 exactly the same between nt right and the people in the federal vision there's not a single one of them that could write a book and show where they differ with him on soteriology so here for instance let me read you what nt right said about baptism this is what he said in order to understand baptism here and elsewhere we have to say something about sacramental theology i have come to believe that the sacraments are best understood within the theology of creation and new creation and of the overlapping of heaven and earth that i have been exploring throughout this book the resurrection of jesus has brought about a new state of affairs in cosmic history and reality thus the event of baptism the action the water the going down and the coming up again the new clothes is not just a sign post to the reality of the new birth the membership in the new family it really is the gateway to that membership that is the event of baptism is the gateway of membership into the body of christ that's what he's saying then he continues the important thing then is that in the simple but powerful action of plunging someone into the water in the name of the triune god there is a real dying to the old creation and a real rising into the new with all the dangerous privileges and responsibilities but then accompanied the new life for many baptism remains in the background out of sight whereas it should be the foundational event for all serious christian living all dying to sin and coming alive with christ so then you couple that with for instance what steve wilkins says about baptism he says baptism unites us to christ and his church and thus in him gives us new life by our baptism we have been reborn in this sense having died with christ we have been raised with him that's a simple summary of what nt wright just said there and wright is saying the same thing norman shepherd says the same thing he says baptism is the moment when we see the transition from death to life and the person is saved this covenant sign and seal marks his conversion and his entrance into the church as the body of christ from the perspective of the covenant he is united to christ when he is baptized baptism marks the entrance into the kingdom of god and the beginning of a lifelong training as kingdom subjects according to the great commission conversion without baptism is an anomaly a sinner is not really converted until he is baptized christians are those who have been baptized unbelievers are those who have not been baptized so so then those who are in the salvation army and some other groups that that do not practice water baptism although we would strongly disagree with them you and i as reformed christians we would not go to the extent to say that they necessarily are not christians right well and the other side of it is that i was an unbeliever when i was baptized saying christians are those who have been baptized i was not a christian in fact i was baptized you'll like this chris i was baptized first by immersion as he has a baptist yes i uh i'm happy but but it is interesting that these pato baptists are all speaking in terms of the mechanics of a baptist immersion if you will the way that they're describing their baptisms is not uh the way that they actually baptize babies right yeah that is an interesting good sidelight note there to point out and i was very much aware of that when i was reading those various quotes by shepherd wilkins and nt right because all of them were in denominations the practice baptism by sprinkling and not by immersion right and one of the things that's interesting about what you're saying is that there are some ways in which federal visionists might resemble our brethren who are lutherans and yet on another note they are very very different from our brethren who are lutherans because our lutherans are lutheran brethren and i don't mean the denomination lutheran brethren although we have brethren among the lutheran brethren but you know your missouri synod lutherans and so on your wisconsin synod and other uh christians in that those denominations um they are very meticulous and the the pillar of their existence is justification by faith alone right yes well yeah of course we could get off into lutheranism but i think that they went astray pretty much from the beginning because they never completely got rid of the idea of baptismal regeneration uh that had been in catholic church and luther did not really make a clear divorce and distinct right right in his denomination but once again uh this quote from steve wilkins about baptism by baptism the spirit joins us to christ since he is the elect one in the churches the elect people we are joined to the body we therefore are elect since he is just the justified one we are justified in him since he is the beloved one we are beloved in him being brought from death to life occurs formally that is it's publicly signified and sealed at baptism and so they put this emphasis on that which is formal outward objective and they deny the the subjective and of course that's one of the problems all the way through their system is they want to deny the subjective grace that is given to us by the holy spirit that enables us to believe that regenerates us that transforms us so that we are a different people as a result but you can't understand the federal vision unless you know they have this regeneration view because they make election itself to follow baptism right we would believe that it's part of the foundation of the world obviously you and i and all reformed christians for his for centuries and the scriptures themselves especially teach that election was before the foundation of the world yeah they say that you are covenantally elected when you are baptized so baptism comes first and then you have your covenantal election you might think well that's just something outward but then they say and if you continue to persevere in that and you received all these benefits and blessings by your baptism peter lightheart said you are justified in baptism you are sanctified you are adopted into god's family and i have a chart in my book that shows how lightheart and the federal vision line up with thomas aquinas and pelagius on their views of what happens at baptism because they list lightheart does and then the federal vision does they list all these different things that happen and they line up with saying the same things as thomas aquinas the scholastic theologians and before him going back all the way to pelagius who was the great opponent of saint augustine and perhaps we could now move on from baptismal regeneration to actually get at some of the more critical issues i mean you did touch on a twisting or out and out denial of unconditional election but also of course a denial of justification by faith alone seems to be the the most serious charge that those outside of federal vision would hurl against those who are adherents of it okay do you have a specific area that you would like me to go to because i've got quotes from a lot of them why don't we why don't we go uh to the area of justification by faith alone and how it is clear from your quotes that you have that key adherents to the federal vision are actually either blurring that or outright denying that okay i've got quotes from three different people here peter lightheart steve schlissel and rich lusk on the matter of justification by faith alone first of all uh peter lightheart says biblically again the case is fairly simple does the new testament ever claim that works are in any sense necessary for justification romans 2 16 again claims that the doers of the law are justified that is a controversial passage but it shows that works and justification are legitimately linked james 2 is even clearer again this is a controversial passage but whatever the specific sense of james 2 he explicitly states that we are justified by works and not by faith alone of course whiteheart needs to read that entire passage of james 2 because james 2 teaches that faith is evidenced by works not that works replace faith as the means of our justification that's not now would you say that james when he is using the term uh i don't know what the original greek term is but the the term that has been translated i believe in every single english translation when james is using justification is he not talking about justification before men and not by god yes he's talking about how our faith is truly justified and proven to be right as evidenced before the watching world it's not evidenced by saying to someone go and be filled and be warmed and doing nothing for them uh if we truly are people who have been born again then we're going to have a concern for others we're going to want to take the gospel to them but we're also going to want to help them in various ways that we can and so james is pointing that out he's not contrasting in fact what james says is very similar to what the apostle paul says i believe it's galatians 5 6 he says um faith is evidenced by works if it is true something to that effect i have to let me go and get that passage very quickly here and we'll read that but paul is saying essentially the same thing as james in what james says in james 2 and we should understand it that he says for in christ jesus neither circumcision or uncircumcision means anything but this was what means something that's the rest of the verse i'm just saying this my interpretation of what he's saying is this is what it means but faith working through love isn't that what james says in james 2 if it's true faith it's faith working through love so paul and james are not in contrast to one another but the federal vision people try to put them in contrast the one thing i found about specifically peter lightheart because he's written more prolifically than anybody else in the federal vision camp except maybe james jordan but peter lightheart very clearly shows that there are three times that he holds to justification by faith one is at baptism and you mean justification by works i think you meant to say am i right no he said would be justification justification he calls it justification he calls it justification by faith well he calls it let me back up he calls it justification right yeah you said faith that's why i wanted to have you clarify he calls he calls it justification he says we are justified when we are baptized then we are justified when we believe but neither of those first two are the real and final thing then we have final justification when god surveys our whole life and all of our works and on the totality of our lives basically putting it in the the measures and if the balance is in our favor then we get in that almost sounds like the seventh day adventist heresy of the investigative judgments but anyway i'm sorry well it's it's very similar but chris the thing is that's the view that the person in the street takes about justification every man in the street as i've talked to so many people in various places about their view of god and the eternal state and how they were going to get into heaven they will tell you well i try to be a good person and i believe that god is going to understand that in the last day and he's going to be merciful to me right that's the view of every person in all over the world and so this final justification is not christian in fact i'm going to read a question for you before we go to our midway break that relates exactly to what you just said okay uh and then we have to go to the break and we'll have you answer this when we return this is from joe in slovenia he says dear brothers chris and dewey thanks for taking my question i'm very ignorant about the details of federal vision and i'm also fuzzy about john piper's teaching of final salvation based on works are these two teachings similar or related in some way if so how if not why not and of course i don't know if you're familiar with what john piper said about that but we'll have you answer that when we return from the break if anybody else would like to join us and we already still have several waiting but our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com don't go away god willing we are going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors are you a christian looking to align your faith and finances then you'll want to check out thriving financial we're not your typical financial services provider we're a not -for -profit fortune 500 organization that helps our nearly 2 .4

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that's batterydepot .com paul wrote to the church at galatia for am i now seeking the approval of man or of god or am i trying to please man if i were still trying to please man i would not be a servant of christ hi i'm mark lukens pastor of providence baptist church we are a reformed baptist church and we hold to the london baptist confession of faith of 1689 we are in nofolk massachusetts we strive to reflect paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how god views what we say and what we do than how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity but since that wasn't the apostles priority it must not be ours either we believe by god's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of christ in love if you live near norfolk massachusetts or plan to visit our area please come and join us for worship and fellowship you can call us at 508 -528 -5750 that's 508 -528 -5750 or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our tv program entitled resting in grace you can find us at providence baptist church ma .org

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that's providence baptist church ma .org or even on sermonaudio .com providence baptist church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio welcome back this is chris arnds and if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with just about an hour to go is dr dewey roberts we are discussing his book historic christianity in the federal vision if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chris arndsen at gmail .com

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chrisarnz and gmail .com please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the usa please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter let's say you disagree with the federal vision and you are in a church that adheres to it or the reverse you believe passionately in the federal vision and yet your pastor disagrees with you your spouse disagrees with you whatever the case may be that would require or at least compel you to remain anonymous we understand that but otherwise please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the usa before i return to our discussion i just have a quick announcement to make uh as i am making it my practice to do every day even though i hate doing it that is begging you for money we are in serious need of donations in order to remain on the air here at iron trip design radio many of you have been uh taking heed to the call the urgent call the urgent plea for financial assistance and we thank god for you you have been so uh so much of a blessing and an encouragement to know that this program means enough to you that you would donate hard -earned money in order to keep it on the air i thank all of you who have been sending in checks and some of you even sending them in weekly that's just totally amazing to me as i try to remember to remind you never siphon money out of your regular giving to your local church and never put your family in financial jeopardy by giving to to iron trip design radio those two things are commands of god providing for church and home and so therefore please don't ever take money away from those responsibilities but if you are blessed above and beyond your ability to provide for your church and home please consider donating to us if indeed you do not want us to disappear from the airways and that uh website that you can go to to find out information on how to donate to us is iron sharpens iron radio .com

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then you click on support and then you'll be given a mailing address where you can mail a check made payable to iron sharpens iron radio for any amount you can afford please give as much as you can and as often as you can if you do indeed love this program and want us to remain on the air if you'd like to advertise with us whatever it is you're advertising your church your parachurch ministry your business your professional practice if you're a doctor or a lawyer a dentist a chiropractor if you're having a special event of some kind no matter what it is as long as it's compatible as long as what you're promoting is compatible with the theology we express here on iron trip design radio we would love to help you launch an ad campaign you don't have to believe identically with me but as long as what whatever it is you're promoting does not violate contradict or actually oppose what we are teaching then we would love to help you launch a campaign send me an email to chris arnzen at gmail .com

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chris arnzen at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line that's also the email address where you could send a check for i'm sorry that's also the email address where you could send a question for our guest dewey roberts right now on the federal vision that's chris arnzen at gmail .com

01:07:19

and uh dr roberts before the break as you recall our listener joe in slovenia says i'm very ignorant about the details of federal vision and i'm also fuzzy about john piper's teaching on final salvation based on works are these two teachings similar or related in some way if so how if not why not first of all let me say for joe in slovenia i don't know if he reads russian but my book historic christianity in the federal vision has been translated into russian uh and i can make sure that he gets a copy of that in russian if he would uh oh wow if you can just uh link me up later with his email address and i can make sure that he gets a copy of that oh sure in fact i think that i um perhaps i didn't i thought that i emailed you his question but perhaps i didn't i'll make sure i get it to you though okay and uh concerning dr piper dr piper want to be very careful what i'm saying he is a great man of god and he is not a federal vision proponent but i do think that he is maintained too close of a relationship and friendship theologically with some of the people who are in the federal vision or the new perspectives he for instance he has doug wilson come to things uh and i've seen on youtubes where he's introduced him and and said that doug is a great communicator and that's why he has him uh and he's been undiscerning about the errors in in doug's theology at certain points at least some of the statements that that i have seen out of doug but the whole matter of final justification and uh uh salvation uh by works at the end i don't say you can really in the end make a distinction between those two uh they ultimately end up in saying the same thing because if you have to be justified finally by god on the basis of your total life that's justification by works however you might want to try to make it sound like it's something else it's really by works because if we are justified by faith alone that has already taken place and the judgment day has already been determined for us when we came to faith in christ and we're not justified by our works or according to our works or anything and so piper is a little fuzzy at that point i think that he fell into that fuzziness because he wrote a book on justification which is trying to counter nt wright he let nt wright see every chapter that he was writing and make corrections and suggestions to it and as soon as piper got through with that nt wright came out with the book countering what piper had said and nt wright used the excuse well i didn't have time uh to let uh dr piper look at this before i went to print sorry for laughing at that but that uh that wasn't very fair now was it well but i'm just saying that i have found that to be the way that the federal vision people do all the way through they want you to treat them with kid gloves well and i have in my book many places where they call us heretics but they tell us please don't call us heretics because we're not yeah the thing that's interesting is that the reason why they rose into existence is because they were saying that the majority of the traditional reformed community the churches within historic calvinistic theology are wrong they missed the boat they somehow went off the rails and they are seeking to restore what they believe biblical christianity is so therefore their reason for existence begins with a strong rebuke and critique of of those that would be considered uh mainline reformed christians i don't mean mainline like the liberal mainline denominations i'm talking about those that are more uh traditional and mainstream within the calvinistic camp so they're so am i right in saying that oh yes you are and particularly they have reacted against anything that they think smacks of subjectivism and there's been an awful lot of subjectivism in modern evangelical christianity where people base their views upon their feelings their inner impressions and things like that but subjectivism is not the same thing as subjective grace which is the work of the holy spirit uh working in our lives and applying the work of salvation to our hearts but what they have done is they painted with a broad brush in their reaction against subjectivism and they've tried to remove every aspect of the subjective completely out of their system well you can't do that unless you're going to end up in cold -hearted formalism that denies the reality of saving grace in the life of a sinner by the way i want to uh make a quick uh disclaimer of sorts but i don't want it to be a rabbit trail or something that takes us away from the subject at hand uh but uh i don't know if you would agree with this but you said basically that you were being critical of john piper for having doug wilson speak at conferences and and publicly applauding him now i have heard many outside of the federal vision even those that would be opposed to it from the reformed camp from the historically traditional reformed camp that think that doug in many ways on on many issues is brilliant they they may disagree with him on some uh ambiguity in these areas that we're discussing but they would say that he is amazingly uh articulate on on a number of issues would you concur with that or would you disagree with that i think that he is a good communicator as far as using smooth words and things like that i have not found doug to be an exact and precise theologian and so i could not call him a brilliant in that respect and that's where i have a problem with him i think a lot of times he simply doesn't understand what he's saying he's communicating something in nice words and slogans but he doesn't know what the substance is behind it just like what he said about regeneration that i read earlier when i read that statement that he made i come away thinking doug doesn't even know what he said well let's not dwell on him now i just wanted to make that right clear that that it's not like everybody in the in the traditional reform camp thinks that he is totally off base on everything or anything close to that uh but let's get to some more specific quotes because i did want this program to be more filled with quotes than anything else right from the horse's mouth as they say uh and uh you know so we know what federal visionists are actually saying rather than giving our our friends who are within the federal vision more fodder or more fuel for the fire to accuse us of hearsay and caricature and slander let's hear more exactly what they have to say all right you know to kind of go into another aspect of this is let's look at this on a lot of people in the federal vision would want to say that they're not denying assurance of salvation okay let's look at what their quotes on assurance of salvation are this is from john i think his name is probably barrett chattel i've never met him and i've never heard his name called but i'd always said it was maybe barack but i guess it's bearish this is what he said how do you know that promise is really for you and not just for other people in the church people who have advanced further in their sanctification or you've had some special experience that convinced them of god's love the answer is that you've had that special experience and then he tells us what that special experience is you've been baptized so what they do i found this about their whole doctrine of assurance this is what they nail it all down to because they go so far onto the objective side they say here's where your assurance is you've been baptized and because you've been baptized you can have assurance that you're going to be saved but if you followed that out that would mean everybody who's baptized is going to be saved you know but they have to deal with the fact that there are many people that then fall away and so that's kind of troubling and this really doesn't bring them any satisfaction do they have real assurance of salvation not on the basis of trusting in their baptism i can assure you that another person who points us out also is peter lightheart he says we cannot get assurance unless we're convinced that god declares me his beloved child in the water of baptism so they're trying to remove the work of the holy spirit enabling us to have true assurance of our salvation uh you know they're it's not the only aspect of it but the work of the holy spirit is important we have assurance also not because we were baptized but because our faith comes back to this resting point that it's because jesus christ died for our sins that's why our assurance for salvation is and we trust in him alone for our salvation and then the holy spirit works within us and the spirit ministers to our spirit or witnesses to our spirit that we are children of god and we have assurance from that but it's not in baptism and that's one of the areas where they go wrong so their view of assurance is something that would give no comfort to a person in the end i had a friend of mine who was no theologian her husband passed away last summer and she's suffering with alzheimer's and someday she remembers who i am another day she doesn't but when i was telling her about the book that i had written on the federal vision and gave her some of the stuff she immediately knew exactly the implications of this because she'd been roman catholic she said in other words they believe in work salvation i said let me ask you something i said when you used to go to the priest did you come away there from there feeling like that everything was right with you she says yes for about five minutes well that's the kind of assurance that a person in the federal hand if he's looking for his baptism to assure him for about five minutes he'll have that then the questions come back am i really a child of god now one of the things they have to ask you i know that you are a presbyterian and i am a reformed baptist and there are federal visionists who will say that their understanding of entrance into the covenant is more consistent uh than their fellow presbyterians uh hold to uh i'll give you an example and i brought this up with john otis as well the day before yesterday uh reformed baptists believe that although there are false converts within the church you might be a member of first baptist church of smithville arkansas uh and you might even be a deacon or a pastor in that congregation but later in your life you could prove to be a false convert you could uh it could be revealed about you that you are involved in unrepentant scandalous sin and of course if the church was functioning properly according to the scriptures in regard to discipline that person would be excommunicated if they refused to repent and so on and we would say as baptists that person was never a member of christ's covenant we would say that they were members of first baptist church but that was just because we didn't know that the person was a false convert and but we would say that they were never a part of christ's covenant now there are i'm not saying all pato baptists but it seems that many pato baptists do believe that there is a real entrance into the covenant of christ upon baptism uh and they would hold to the the uh the fact that there is an invisible invisible covenant and so on does this in your opinion kind of open the way for a federal visionist way of thinking i know that david engelsma who is a pato baptist uh formerly on the faculty of protestant reform seminary he seemed to agree with the typical reform baptist understanding of only the elect being truly in the covenant but if you could just respond to what i said well i do think that it's only the elect that are in the covenant you know sometimes people will say to me there's something that happens in baptism so what is that what is it that happens and i never can get them to answer other than well it's something well that's not a good answer if you're that nebulous in your thinking but the the fact of the matter is there's really nothing that happens in baptism except for the elect and it doesn't necessarily happen at the time of baptism because the person can be elect before i mean they're always like i mean they can be transformed before during or after their baptism and i want to make a statement here that probably is not said often enough as a presbyterian i can say this the great reform theology theologians in reform theology has never said or never tried to prove that baptism is something that is obviously proved from infant baptism is proof in the new testament it's not there's no instance of infant baptism in the new testament and charles hodge and many other great reform theologians herman bob inc and others have said this that infant baptism is not properly baptism because baptism requires the profession of faith of the one who's entering into that and so but by the way i just i just got up off the floor i fell off my chair here well i mean do you practice infant baptism as a presbyterian in the pca sure but it i know i understand that it's a covenant sign we we argue on the basis that that uh baptism uh is a something that god said in acts the second chapter for the promises for you and for your children after you and even as many as the lord our god shall call unto himself and so we understand that but when we baptize somebody here at cornerstone presbyterian church i make it very clear that what we are doing is we are acknowledging this child's innate sinfulness their need of the cleansing blood of the lord jesus christ and we are promising to pray for this child that that god by his spirit will work in their hearts and bring them to will regenerate them and bring them to saving faith but that the baptism itself does not transform them because that's a mistake that we must get far away from and of course of course you wouldn't say i'm assuming that baptism means nothing it is an act of obedience and it does for instance we who are reformed baptists and i believe it would be the same with presbyterians we would not admit someone to membership who was not biblically baptized well yes i didn't say that baptism means nothing what i've said earlier is that people say that in baptism something happens right you know that is they're trying to say well there's some kind of something that god does every time a person is baptized something transformational something yeah right yes no baptism is as important as given to us as a sacrament in the word of god and so we have to hold to that but that it doesn't do anything for the non -elect they don't get some spark in their baptism that then if they perfect they will be saved i remember uh years ago i saw a young black boy on tv who was deemed a child uh preacher and uh he actually was speaking about this and he said baptism doesn't save you if you're a devil and you get into that baptismal font you're just going to come up a wet devil you know and um when i get into that on uh the federal vision's paradigm for baptism in in my chapter on that in the book and then on baptismal efficacy you read those two chapters chris you can see the various quotes that i have from these great reformed theologians all in agreement that infant baptism although in many churches today excuse me being the the most the most obvious form of baptism that is practiced particularly in present -day churches excuse me i'm gonna have to take a i'm gonna have to put them in fact we're gonna go to our final break right now and uh this is a brief break and uh if anybody would like to join us before we go off the air and we still have a couple of you waiting to have your questions asked and answered our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com

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you'll receive for free a book retailing for twenty dollars and that's john macarthur's book on forgiveness uh so please uh also make sure you mention chris arnz and an iron sharpens iron radio whenever you order if you're ordering online you could do that by uh clicking on instructions and specifically say i heard about this uh this company from chris arnz and an iron sharpens iron radio and if you're calling you can obviously verbally tell them that and entering the coupon code or or speaking verbally when you call the coupon code iron will automatically actually take care of that just please make sure that they know that you heard about them from chris arnz and an iron sharpens iron radio we are now back with our guest uh dewey roberts and we are discussing his book uh the uh historical christianity and the federal vision and if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

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chris arnzen at gmail .com and please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the usa and uh dr roberts you you uh we're having a little bit of a cluffing fit if you wanted to to what you were planning on saying before we go to any of our listener questions yes and chris i'm going to blame you for my cough i picked it up over the radio all right you know this is a very important point and i'm going to read you both what peter lightheart says and then what charles hodge says and i think you'll see the difference and i want to uh kind of make a statement about that peter lightheart says in my work on baptism i have exactly taken the paradigm of infant baptism as the model of baptism that is whatever infant baptism he says it is then he can pour that out into that model uh all the things that he thinks it is and make that the model of all baptism this is what charles hodge says the difficulty on this subject is that baptism from its very nature involves the profession of faith it is the way which by the ordinance of christ is to be confessed before men but infants are incapable of making such confession therefore they are not the proper subjects of baptism now hodge hodge is not saying we don't baptize infants he's saying the right model is adult baptism huh that's interesting and not infant baptism it's not the other way around and he was a pato baptist and he was on the faculty at princeton and he was known for being someone who actually participated in infant baptism so it's an interesting yes he performed it he's just saying that you can't define what baptism is by starting with infant baptism you can define what it is by starting with adult baptism because that's defined in the scripture and infant baptism is never defined in the scripture in any way and so therefore it would be speaking out of turn right because even in even a pato baptist would have to admit the first people that were ever baptized in the new testament were adults who believed absolutely and you know i can honestly say that in my congregation here we baptized infants but i baptized more adults over my time as pastor of this church than i have infants really and i'm and i'm glad for that not that i demean infant baptism my own children were baptized as infants but unless the infant baptism means nothing unless the child comes to faith in christ so you still have to preach the gospel to them instead of just holding into that but the interesting thing about all this is a few years ago chris i went on a mission trip to india and i was teaching some of the chapters of my book on the federal vision to these pastors in southeast india who grew up as hindus and now christians and the lead pastor there who spoke english very well he said you cannot imagine how well what you're teaching here applies to hindu theology and so when i came home i started studying this subject out and i found out the first people who ever believed in baptismal regeneration were the hindus that it came into the christian it came into judaism by the hindus influencing the babylonians and assyrians and then when the children of israel carried off into captivity there it influenced them and then the greeks were influenced by it so the pagan philosophers and there's all this mountain of evidence by the greatest historians and others showing this train here of of it starting with the hindus and their idea that once you were plunged in the water you came up as a new man a twice born man and it came into the church through that means and so this is not a christian view at all the federal vision and all that they say is not a christian theology it is hindu theology at its core and of course of course the adherence to federal vision though are not claiming some kind of polytheistic understanding of you know as hindus have many uh hundreds of deities and so on and they do not believe in any sense that's christ alone is our hope for salvation and that his work on calvary is necessary so you don't want to go overboard in that analogy do you i'm talking about their view of baptism okay and what baptism does that is not christian theology that comes from the hindus and the evidence i've got the evidence in my book on that and you can read that but it's very clear in there that this comes from but um your hardest boss traces it back even further this whole magical view of the efficacy of baptism as though something happens every time a person is baptized you know where he traces it back to chris the garden of eden and he said satan was the one who first introduced this he said the tree will make you wise that is that object there is able to do something in you and to change you you eat from that tree it's going to make you wise and you will be like god and uh your hardest boss in his uh biblical theology lays that out very clearly and so ultimately we must say about this and i will not give them any uh freedom on this area the federal vision is outside of christianity on their view of baptism and they need to renounce it and come back into the christian fold because that is the source of all their errors and they will remain on the outside as long as they hold to this magical view of the efficacy of baptism by the way we do have a listener who's a mutual friend of ours uh john otis and i give his full name because he has been a guest on this program uh john otis uh who was actually my guest day before yesterday speaking on this very issue uh he is in winder georgia unless it's pronounced winder i don't know how to pronounce that i'm assuming it's winder he says thanks dr roberts for your stand let me just share larger catechism question number 61 question are all they save who hear the gospel and live in the church and the answer at that hour the gospel and live in the visible church are not saved but they only who are true members of christ church invisible i i don't know if there was a typo in there uh all that hear the gospel and live i'm sorry all that hear the gospel and live in the visible church are not saved but they only who are true members of the church invisible and that is something that even reformed baptists can say a hearty amen to even though this is being taken from the larger catechism of the westminster catechism well you know chris uh reformed presbyterians and reformed baptists when they have the right view of salvation they're really not at odds on this matter of who is in the covenant because they know it's by eternal election and they know therefore and you would agree that just because a person as an adult professes outwardly professes faith in christ and is baptized that does not make him a christian that does not mean that he's a christian that does not mean that he's going to be eternally saved because there's a difference between the outward and the inward and that distinction is completely blurred and destroyed by the federal vision people they make them identical and by the way for some of our federal visionist listeners who may think that all theonomists are on their side john otis happens to be a theonomist unlike my guest dr dewey roberts and i but he is a theonomist who is very very opposed to the federal vision as is everyone in the specific denomination to which he belongs the reformed presbyterian church in the united states which is a theonomic presbyterian denomination so i just wanted to make that clear that's because there may be some federal visionists who think that that that all theonomists and reconstructionists are fully in their camp and that's just not true well the first theonomist dr greg bonson was not in their camp because i had him as a professor at reformed theological seminary in jackson in 1975 and 76 and he taught reformed soteriology the doctrine of salvation very clearly and the people who have moved into the federal vision have taken theonomy in the wrong direction completely and they've tried to apply theonomy to the doctrine of the covenant and basically think that thereby they can baptize somebody and bring them into a living relationship with christ but not an inward living relationship they're very careful to make that distinction just a formal and outward living relationship and of course dr bonson went home to be with the lord before the federal vision even existed so but it seems to me uh i mean i'm not a a thorough knowledgeable expert on everything greg bonson taught but what i have heard him say especially in regard to roman catholicism would make me believe that he would be if he were alive very opposed to the federal vision even though one of his sons is a leading advocate of them i dr bonson would have had to have changed his position completely i don't see that he would have done that having uh known the man and and having discussed with him various things that are now leading positions of the the federal vision men i discussed those things with greg bonson himself as an aside just the two of us and he was always on the side of reform theology and not with the federal vision camp at all uh we have uh i don't know if you got uh a link that i emailed okay uh a listener an anonymous listener actually sent me this link and providentially uh i was actually talking about this link with a very close friend who is a believer in federal vision and this uh this link uh would have us believe if the if the author of this article was correct that that everything or nearly everything we're talking about is an error today this i don't know if you know who luke newsma is do you know who this individual is i mean i hope i'm not butchering his name i do not okay well he seems to be an advocate of the federal vision and he says what federal vision theology is is an emphasis on biblical definitions an emphasis on the external covenant a different definition of christian an emphasis on strong church authority an emphasis on the sacraments particularly baptism another aspect to the church a global ecclesiology and another aspect to election now we might not really disagree with that so much or any of those elements where we today or should i say what you have presented today seems to be in conflict with the second part what federal vision is not salvation by works justification by works baptismal regeneration a denial of assurance of salvation the new perspective on paul a denial of classic reform theology is found in the westminster or heidelberg a denial of the imputation of christ's righteousness heresy taught by men who have been tried in an ecclesiastical court uh now just out of curiosity do you know of anybody who has been tried in the ecclesiastical court and found guilty i don't remember specifically what happened with norman shepherd for instance i was not involved in in that trial in any way um well if you could just respond especially to yes what this i'm going to say i was trying to think of anybody that i knew that had been tried guilty i think that the pca has made some very serious errors in trying some of the men that they have tried uh and there was overwhelming evidence of their heresies you know as i look over this there are things on both what federal vision theology is and what it is not that are outside of uh reform theology uh i mean i differ with what he says on what it is not and i'll go over those but uh you know he says an emphasis on the external covenant that's one thing that i said they they emphasize the external and objective and formal to almost the exclusion of the internal uh and subjective uh covenant of god and they do not like those terms and that's an error and in my book i show that that error leads all the way back to pelagianism because that was the essential controversy between augustine and pelagius that is whether the grace of god is an inner working in the heart of man or whether it is just something that is all outside of him and therefore it's up to him to obey out of the ability that he already has and so that's an essential error and to go astray there is is a grievous error and then he says it's a different definition of christian i guarantee it's a different definition of christian when when i call someone a christian is because they have believed in the lord jesus christ not because they simply have been baptized with water i don't call a person a christian yeah i the the the issue that i in speaking with some of these folks it seems to me that that what they are saying is the bible will call christian those whom later prove themselves to be false converts whereas many of us will say that they were not truly christians you know like for instance we may use the term christendom even you and i might use that term to include people that aren't genuinely regenerate born again christian right but they will extend that term christendom to even christian and it to me just confuses the issues like for instance i will say if i if a person's a false convert i will say that person is a false christian they weren't they're not a true christian but it seems that they want to insist that anyone baptized in the name of the trinity is a true christian right even if they're not saved right uh and uh i just think that that's going down the complete wrong road at that point they say that it's a another aspect to election yes their idea of covenant election is contradictory to and in a disagreement with unconditional election and you can't hold both of them together because they have they have actually i've heard quotes and perhaps you might have one handy where people are considered to be elect and then unelect the same people yes yes i've seen um steve wilkins says something like that i think it's in the chapter on perseverance um no no boy you're looking for i can't find that but uh right off the head but i want to go through these what it is not say they say it's not salvation by works well if you're saved on the basis of covenant faithfulness if you're saved on the basis of final justification based on the totality of your life and call it whatever name you want to but that's salvation by works and so that's a fanciful denial this particular individual needs to get my book and read it and i would challenge him or anybody in the federal vision to try to dispute my book and i don't think they're going to be able to do that uh because what i did was i tethered my views to the greatest commentators on scripture the greatest creeds of the church and the greatest theologians of the history of the church and if i'm wrong in what i've said then everybody else is wrong as well that's in the true reformed tradition uh and so i don't think they're going to be able to prove that but i would just lay the gauntlet down read my book and try to say that i'm wrong on what i've said there and uh describing what you've said and and using the quotes that i have i don't think that they will be able to do that now he says baptismal regeneration we've gone over that one today they have a particular type of baptismal regeneration where they believe in this objective entrance into the covenant but then they try to meld that all together into one so that they say that if you receive this objective relationship with christ and you persevere in it then you will be saved so somehow or another it moves from formal to real you know by your obedience well that's salvation by words at that point if that's what can be accomplished by your perseverance and then he says it's um not the new perspective on paul we've dealt with that one in that i say yes there are peripheral issues that are different different between them on the doctrine of salvation there's no difference between them uh then he says it's not a denial of classic reform theology is found in the westminster heidelberg once again read my book because i show in all of these chapters every single chapter i show that their views are contrary to the westminster confession of faith uh and other reform symbols and so uh their problem is trying to show otherwise because i've got the proof in the book on that uh then he says it's not a denial of the imputation of christ righteousness well it certainly is because if i am righteous on the basis of what is imputed to me through christ i don't have to try to present to god on the last day my own life of good works as a recommendation to him on why i should get into heaven in fact isn't isn't that the very thing that turns what otherwise are wonderful deeds of obedience it turns them into filthy rags because we're offering them to god for salvation yes yes they are you know the very best thing that i do are in the end you know christ taught us to say when you have done all that i've commanded you then you're then to look up and say forgive us lord for we are unprofitable servants for we have only done what you required of us so every good thing we ever do is nothing in god's sight because it falls short of that standard of perfection that standard is not 90 or 95 or 99 or 99 .99

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it's 100 anything less than that is unworthy because god cannot look upon the tape of sin and so we have to have the perfect righteousness of christ imputed to us so yes their view does militate against the imputed righteousness of christ by the way i want a quick i just want to make a quick announcement that everybody who has written in thus far is receiving a free copy of the book we are discussing by dr dewey roberts historic christianity and the federal vision and if we don't have your mailing addresses already please send them to me immediately so that cvbbs .com

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carmelin valley bible book service can ship these copies out to you at no cost to you or to iron sharpens iron radio but if you could perhaps because we only have a few minutes left we have five minutes left if you could please quote as many of the federal visionists as possible so that we're hearing exactly what they are teaching from their own mouths or or should i say from their own uh written words okay the the final thing that he says is that it's not heresy taught by men who have been trident in the ecclesiastical court well steve wilkins left the denomination uh before he could be tried uh and he was going to the standing judicial commission was going to have to take uh original jurisdiction of his case and try him and i think that in 2007 or 8 whenever 2008 i believe it was that he at that time would have been tried and found guilty of heresy on that because the sjc did vote i was the the prosecutor in the trial of louisiana presbytery they did vote 11 to 7 in favor of prosecuting louisiana presbytery for harboring someone whose views were outside of the reformed faith now i did not like to be in that position because steve wilkins was one of my two or three best friends at reformed seminary i've gone to general assembly with him and stayed in the same hotel rooms with him i've spent nights at his home uh and so we were close but truth has to win out uh and so when the peter whiteheart cases came before the denomination in the sjc in 2013 for technical views concerning process not theological views uh they decided to to not deal with that issue and just to find cover under the decision that the presbytery had made and to leave it at that point uh doug wilson came out and this proves that the federal vision is an acceptable view within the presbyterian church in america and so the debate is all over well one year after my book came into print and i know that doug had many people close to him who received copies of my book one year afterwards doug raises this white flag and says federal vision no moss don't call me federal vision anymore but he didn't say that he was taking back anything that he believed in fact he said it doesn't mean i've changed my views and so i find it interesting i can't say that doug has read my book but i find it interesting because in my book in every chapter i show that the federal vision on their views is heresy and i did not like having to do that i don't like being political but it was necessary because the federal vision is heresy and we need to avoid it like the plague well uh we are now uh pretty much close to the end of our program and i want to make sure that our listeners have all of your contact information uh first of all i want to make sure that they know how to contact your church the cornerstone presbyterian church in america which is obviously in the pca in destin florida that website is cornerstone pca destin which is spelled d as in david e s as in sam t as in thomas in .org

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cornerstone pca destin .org and if anybody wants to purchase this book i know that cumberland valley bible book service cvbbs .com