The Apologetic Legacy of William Lane Craig

Welcome back to another show of Revealed Apologetics with your host Eli Ayala, and I am super excited today because we have a wonderful guest that I'll be interviewing to discuss the topic of the apologetic legacy of Dr. William Lane Craig of Reasonable Faith.

And so I'm going to introduce our guest in just a few moments just by way of quick announcements. I'm going to be having a couple of other interviews coming up with some very fascinating guests covering various topics that range from theology, apologetics, and all those other related areas.

Also if those of you who are following my ministry at any level, I will also be engaging in a debate on the topic, is there evidence for the God of the Bible, on June 2nd. So stay tuned for that as well.

Kevin Harris on Radio, Apologetics, and Reasonable Faith

And today I'm super excited because we're going to be talking about the legacy of William Lane Craig, who if anyone knows me specifically, okay, they know I'm a Calvinist and they know that I'm a presuppositional apologist.

And so you're probably wondering why on earth do I have a good friend of Dr. Craig, Kevin Harris, who actually hosts the Reasonable Faith podcast. Why would I have someone like Kevin Harris on my show talking about the apologetic legacy of William Lane Craig?

Well, if you are Reformed and you are a presuppositional apologist and you have a problem with that, you could always go to a different channel because regardless of my theological perspective and my apologetic perspective, I would have to be living under a rock to not acknowledge the apologetic influence that Dr. Craig is having in the world of Christianity today.

And more specifically, I would be very dishonest if I couldn't admit that Dr. Craig has had a profound influence on my own thinking. So it's a great pleasure and a joy to have Kevin Harris here and maybe one day we can get Dr. Craig as well.

I have been very influenced by Dr. Craig's work and I think Kevin Harris has done an amazing job asking the questions and sifting through material so that Dr. Craig can address those issues and can provide a great help to the body, even if there are those who come from different perspectives.

So without further ado, I'd like to welcome Kevin Harris. And if you want to take just a few seconds to tell folks about you, they probably know more about you than they would about me, but you can take a few moments to share a little bit about yourself and what you do.

I was in Top 40 in rock radio for a long time, all during the 80s, started when I was in high school and moved more toward production in the 90s. And I said, you know, how can I use my gifts in radio and in production and my love for apologetics and sharing my faith and sharing the cause of Christ?

How can I somehow put those together and yet also be as mainstream as possible? Because I often think that we as followers of Christ miss opportunities by just going into the Christian world. And we need to learn how to, in God's grace, navigate the mainstream because, well, that's where the people are.

And so I've tried to stay in the stream and be salt and light. I'm a salt and light guy. And that takes a lot of discipline and maturity, you know, to do that because it can be treacherous, you know, from time to time and eat up by the big entertainment machine.

But I think that we're really doing that with reasonable faith with these podcasts.

It's interesting, my introduction to apologetics was interesting. It came through my study of eschatology. And so my brother-in-law actually was called upon to DJ a wedding at the last second because the DJ had, for whatever reason, he was unable to do the wedding.

And so he wanted to borrow my iPod and hook it up to some speakers and use that for the music. And so after the wedding, he gave me my iPod back and I'm listening through stuff and he put music on there and a bunch of other audio material.

And I was like, who's this William Lane Craig guy? Like, and that was my first introduction to Dr. Craig and the reasonable faith podcast. And so from there, I have learned so much since then. And of course, I have Dr. Craig's book here.

And I know folks who are involved in apologetics, this is a very well known work. And as a teacher, prior to getting a job as a teacher, I was posted guard of the bathroom doing bathroom duty as a permanent sub from the morning to the afternoon.

And I spent my entire day guarding the bathroom like a boss and reading the living daylights out of this book. And so it was immensely helpful. And of course, in my study of Dr. Craig, I was very familiar with your soothing radio voice, which I have to admit, I've been listening to you for years before I actually saw what you look like.

And I kind of see like you don't look the same as the way you sound, which is usually the case with radio. Do you get that a lot?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Gosh, if you listen to a tape of me when I was 20, OK, to a tape of me when I'm 60, which is now, OK, that's how ancient I am. I still sound 20. And so if people see me and go, ah, you know, well, you know, it's just part of it.

Your voice kind of stays the same. But but yeah, it's it's fun. It's so funny, the whole history of radio back when I started radio, you had to have a radio voice and just really puke and all that stuff.

And MTV changed all that about 1981. I mean, everybody said they were more casual. Hey, we got some music from Duran Duran coming up. Thanks for hanging out. And radio had to adapt because we all sounded like buffoons after we're talking like this is casual.

So that's one good thing, a little more transparent, a little more real and and the whole bit. And that's moved right on into what you're doing as well. We're having a conversation. The podcast that I do with Dr. Greger are very conversational.

I try to keep it on the lay level, which is not hard to do because I've still got some reading to do on some of the things that we discuss. So I ask from the position of a layman what the what the average person is going to is going to ask.

The thing about it is, is that people who listen to Reasonable Faith are so sophisticated, for the most part, that they're going, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've heard all that. But just think about, again, the mainstream, that there are a lot of people who are coming in and want to try to find that middle ground.

Yeah, and I think I think that's very important because I think one of the great tasks of the apologist is to kind of take that ivory tower material and bring it down to the everyday person so it can be useful on the everyday level as well as, you know, it's useful within that context of scholarship.

And I think that's a very, very challenging thing to do. But I think you do it very well because you're kind of like the inner voice in the lay person's head. Well, I want to ask this and you ask it and they're like, oh, there you go.

He asked it. And so hearing you kind of interact with someone like Dr. Craig and the way you ask questions, I think is to be honest, I think it's I think it's amazing on multiple levels, which is what I want to ask you about.

One of the reasons why I wanted to have you on. And of course, I mean, who wouldn't want to have Dr. Craig on as well? I mean, you know, folks like him are very busy and we understand that goes. But as I've been listening to you, I have actually found that there is great apologetic insight in what you do, not merely with Dr. Craig answering the questions and doing the explanations and things like that.

What do you think is the apologetic value of doing what you do in the sense of researching material, sifting through good information and bad information such that you can crystallize the issues to in such a way that, yes, this is the package.

This is what we're going to talk about. This is the important issue to address. How do you put your finger on the pulse of what's going on in the world around us such that you give us relevant information?

First of all, a lot of people help. I mean, I get emails and I need to put my email out there more often because maybe I haven't done as much. But even on Facebook, people will send me topics. Hey, you ought to do a podcast on this.

Hey, what about this? And so people have help from all over the world. You know, Brazil, Canada and everywhere. And so that's one thing. And oh, man, you know, I have to go into the sewer of the Internet and I have to wade through all the horrible things that people are saying about Dr. Craig.

Right. We'll talk about that later if you want. I mean, he's the real deal. I'll just give you a spoiler alert. He is the real deal. I'll tell you straight up and we'll talk about it. But but I'll wade through there and kind of see what people see if I can.

I'm pretty good at getting the buzz. What's what are people talking about? What's the chatter? I'll see what our atheist friends are talking about. Kind of wade through that and some things like that.

And Dr. Craig is a he's a philosopher. He's a professional philosopher. He's not an apologist. First, apologetics just kind of comes out of that and which is very valuable because we need to study philosophy and theology and all the disciplines and then culminate that into our apologetics.

And so we'll try to take his philosophical training and knowledge, which is like insane. He's such an egghead. But and then and then find the apologetic nugget nugget in there, mine that nugget, mine that nugget and bring it out so that we can use it in a practical way.

And so that's that's what I try to do.

Yeah. And and that and I'm sorry.

Can you say that again? Very accommodating of that, because he had rather talk about something else. And then I'll say I'll get him down. You know, I'll get him down off of the top shelf. But again, I have to say that people are becoming more and more sophisticated.

People in junior high, seventh grade, eighth grade, they know a lot these days. People are boning up on their on their apologetics and philosophy.

So it's good. So now I guess a quick question for you before we move on to Dr. Craig is, can you speak to the idea of the apologetic value of what you do? I mean, what. What is it what is so apologetically valuable to be able to differentiate between good material and bad material and zero in on those important.

Issues? Because you're going to run into not only some simple question that you've heard a million times from your brother in law, you're going to run into some of the most sophisticated, atheistic, non-Christian, materialistic philosophy out there.

And it's becoming more and more necessary to really wade through that, have the basics down and then, you know, build from there with a better, better standpoint. So I would say people tend to ask the same questions.

Sure. They're certainly getting more sophisticated these days. I remember back in the day, apologetics was a secret weapon. I mean, all of us apologists were running around in the 70s and 80s, cocky because we could knock you your argument out of the park.

And, you know, well, all of a sudden the 90s hit and the Internet hit. And I was shocked to find out that there were lots of my atheist friends who I didn't know too many until the Internet actually knew these arguments, too.

And I got a little longer. The secret evangelistic weapon, right? You know, or evangelism. We've got to be on our game and at the same time not lose sight of glorifying the Lord, because, you know, the tendency, of course, is to just get into a brawl and try to one up and stuff like that.

And that's one of the things I appreciate with Dr. Craig is that he is in the heat of the philosophical conflicts and watching. I think I've watched almost every debate he has because I've been listening for a long time and I have not I can honestly say I have never seen him ever lose his cool in the midst of the conflict.

And so even just for myself, I'm going to ask you the question, but just for myself, one of the the things that I think Dr. Craig is a perfect example of is what a Christian gentleman looks like, regardless of what people might, you know, other Christian brothers and sisters who may share his philosophical and theological positions or whatever.

No one can fault him for the godly character that he that he always presents, especially in the heat of conflict. And I think that's something very much that we all need to learn from. So I think that's important.

William Lane Craig's Debating Style, Christian Character, and Public Influence

All right. Well, let's shift now. We're talking about the leg of the apologetic legacy of Dr. Craig. Let me ask you a question and it's going to sound a little morbid, but it's not. You kind of get the spirit of what I'm going to ask.

If Dr. Craig were to pass away and you are speaking at his funeral, how would you briefly summarize the impact he's had on you personally and the impact, as you have perceived, that he's had on the Christian world?

I'd walk out and I would open my Bible and I would say. The WLC. OK, because. It's it's it's screamingly obvious, I mean, not that I would I can't answer the question, but he has somehow been given the grace to do these debates and these lectures and other things that have been so disseminated and so widespread that there's just a whole lot of people who who know who he is and have been influenced by him.

And overlap between Armenians, Calvinists, Molinists, I mean, we all share the same apologetic value on things. And so that's what he's done as well. And you pointed out during the intro, which I thought was great, because while there are theological differences and things like that, there is a lot of common ground.

And so he has been able to hone in on that. Sure. He's been able to show that he's got three rebuttals for everything, anything that you can bring up. And so that says that makes people interested in learning.

Not again, not so you can one up somebody, but so that you can represent better so that you can make a bigger impact so that you can represent your faith better. And you're right. He is a gentleman. He genuinely cares and he's charitable.

He will give his opponent, his debate opponent, when he reads their material or if they say something, he'll give them the benefit of the doubt. He will try not to set up a straw man. He will try to really hone in on what they say and then interact with it.

So this has captured a lot of people and electrified them, has caused them to want to at least bone up. And a lot of people say, well, I'm going to debate like that. You know, well, it's I'm telling you, that takes a lot of research.

If you're going to have a mainstream debate, debates are great. You know, I used to do them and but but it takes a lot of prep.

Well, let's just say Dr. Craig knows how to come prepared for a fight.

You really got now.

Now, now, less people, I could say from my knowledge of him as kind of just the person who's followed his work. He's got a razor sharp mind, obviously. He's got a a kind of charming and cheesy scholar sense of humor that kind of is it's kind of like it's cheesy, but it's Dr. Craig, so it's OK.

But he uses that to his benefit when making some point that he wants to get across. And I think there is there is a there is a balance to how he presents arguments. And he uses a mixture, as I see it, of the intellectual strength of the argument, along with the Christian character, the character that's required to engage in those sorts of discussions and kind of that little charm that he has to make a point.

I think all of these things other apologists can can learn from in that we try to employ all of the the things that God has given us to the purpose of promoting the gospel, giving an answer to those who, you know, who ask us for the reason for the hope that's in us.

And I think he exemplifies that very, very well. Now, on a more personal level, what kind of for people who are only familiar with Dr. Craig at that professional level, what sort of person is he just, you know, when you're just having a basic conversation?

I have a friend who is he's over at Trinity Radio. Radio is a Christian apologist. I believe he's the president of Trinity Trinity Bible College. I think there's a complicated name. It's so it doesn't roll off the tongue.

But Braxton Hunter, who had the pleasure of going with Dr. Craig and a few others on a trip to Israel. And I asked him a while back, you know, how was Dr. Craig? And, you know, in that setting where he's kind of just hanging out, you guys are traveling along and he's like, he's exactly the same.

So I kind of get that consistent answer. Do you think that Dr. Craig is a different Dr. Craig when he's kind of like laid back, having normal conversations or or does he give you syllogisms for everything?

Well, what you see is what you get, he he really cares about people and he really cares about the arguments and he's disturbed by misrepresentations of the Christian faith. He's disturbed by unsophisticated theology that we need to be as sophisticated as we can in our theology and Bible knowledge in the grace of God.

And so he's very passionate about that. But he but he cares about people. He started in ministry in the you know, in college, working with young people, working with people in dorm. And he just he really does care this.

If you listen to the podcast, Dr. Craig's secret weapon, his wife Jan. That was great. Man, she is something. And she has she keeps him organized and has helped him. Really? In fact, I we all need a Jan in our lives.

My wife is pretty much that way. She's kind of like that. Very practical because Dr. Craig is thinking, you know, he's going over philosophy and theology and thinking about infinite regresses and and vicious ones.

And and so he's in thought and he's pouring everything into this. And that's hard to stay organized when you're doing this. Me, I'm a creative guy and my brains are totally on that side. So I'm it's hard for me to be organized.

And I've learned from Jan just from the over 10 years of of of watching her because I'm thinking pink, blue colors. And I can be just a, you know, real scatterbrain.

The Discipline, Devotion, and Study Habits Behind Craig's Work

Yeah, I suppose I suppose if we are to talk about the legacy of Dr. Craig, it's really impossible to talk about the legacy of Dr. Craig without mentioning the influence of his wife and being behind. I mean, that in that particular episode of Reasonable Faith, where you guys spoke about, you know, Dr. Craig's secret weapon.

I mean, it just goes to show the importance of having a significant other that stands behind you in your ministry and gives you the strength to, you know, emotional strength or whatever, whatever kind of support that that that is a very, very important feature as to how an apologist or a minister or a pastor or whatever can be effective to to the best degree possible.

I think that's I think it's amazing.

Yes. And he's he's very disciplined. Of course, Jan, I'm sure has helped with that. But he does this at this point and this at this point and working from his home office. You know, you have to. Yeah, because it'd be very easy just to chill as we're all finding out.

It takes a lot of discipline if you're going to work out of your home and he sticks to it. He sticks to it. He has a time that he looks at email. He has a time that he's going to read and he's up early, early in the morning.

And if I could interrupt you there, I do apologize. I think people would be interested in this. And I know that Dr. Craig has mentioned it in articles because people have asked this question, but maybe you can kind of specify what does a study day for Dr. Craig look like?

Have you ever spoken about that with him? I mean, what time does he wake up? What does he like to read? How does that all work out throughout his day? Do you ever talk about that with him?

Yeah, I do. And he boy, he's been doing the same thing for a long time. He's very consistent. And that's why I think he's so effective. He is just he's up, I think, for 430 in the morning, goes to bed early, gets up early devotion straight off the bat.

He gets up and he will read passage, then he'll read a report or something that he's interested in that's more devotional rather than philosophical. Like for a while he was going to the to the church fathers and for a while he was going through his devotions, for a while he was going through the growth of the church in different areas.

And so he knew a lot about that. And then and then he prays, works out. He's got a muscular ailment that he has to really keep an eye on. He eats right. Jan sees to that. He's in really good shape. He has struggled with that health issues, but he has stayed on top of it.

And so he gets exercise and then he probably hits that study right towards seven o 'clock in the morning and goes till five, you know, or sometimes longer.

Yeah. So the key thing is is consistency.

Yes. And he I mean, he won't check. He won't check email. This is insane to me, you know, because we have phones. I mean, I got to check this thing every five minutes and email. He very seldom will he ever check it before five in the afternoon.

Jan will come down and let him know, you know, but he really sticks to it.

Craig's Impact on Atheism, Debate Culture, and Apologetic Strategy

Well, that's actually it makes me feel really special because Dr. Craig is a high class philosopher. He's renowned around the world. I reach out to people all the time to, you know, do interviews like this.

And it's very hard to get in touch with people. And there are people who I've messaged multiple times and just, you know, I acknowledge people are busy and I reach out no responses. But I I have to say, I have reached out to Dr. Craig on Facebook and he has responded to every every even if it's a quick question, hey, what what Bible translation do you use?

It gives me the time of day. And I think for me, who I mean, he doesn't know who I am. I'm just a friend on Facebook. And I think someone of his stature who recognizes the impact that he's having, I think when he's able to, he finds it important to, you know, say hello or to or to, you know, answer a person's question.

I think that's that's really difficult to maintain everything you're doing and also pay attention to the people that are not really involved in your life. But you're just kind of aware of your even your Facebook profile or something like that.

I think that's very I think it says a lot about his character.

I guarantee you, he'll be on your show. You know, he's doing a lot more interviews these days. Yeah, I'll hook you up as well, because I appreciate that to be on. It'd be great for him to be on. So, yeah, yeah.

He's doing a lot more interviews these days.

Yeah, well, I would greatly appreciate that. I'd love to have him. You bet you bet. But now now when we're speaking about the legacy of Dr. Craig, what do you. What do you think in your estimation is the impact that he's making in the world of atheism?

I mean, how do atheists around the world, people that he debates, how is he being perceived on the philosophical landscape today as you see it?

You know, I think the respect for him has grown among the atheist, agnostic, non-Christian, anti-theistic community. For a while, everything you read was was just horrible. It was all at home. And, you know, if you think about it, suppose, you know, that you there were a Mormon apologist who was good and so smooth and so effective and three answers to everything that you said and could was an outstanding debater.

It'd be, you know, you'd you'd kind of go get a little sour grapes there. I know. Let's see if we can find something on this guy. So and which is not charitable and it's not like to do that. But a lot of it has been just because he's been so effective and his argumentation, his arguments are good and he's been, you know, has been consistent.

So I see a growing admiration for him. And there are others who have always admired him, who are very prominent in the like in the new atheist movement and in some of that group and who were around before all that happened in the early 2000s, who always admired him and are good friends with him.

So that's good. Somebody asked me the other day, Dr. Craig, really, he started kind of having an impact with Willow Creek debate in the in the 90s, late 90s. And because Zindler, the guy that he debated was just real formidable.

And people were very much that debate multiple times, by the way.

Man, he hit a brick wall and I watched that on like a VHS. I bought that that that debated VHS and I was stunned and I started calling Dr. Craig to interview him on my show because he did such a good job without being snarky.

Yeah. And well, and that kicked it. And then I was at a debate in Dallas, Texas, right around 98, 99, wherever it was when he debated Parsons, there were 4000 people at that big mega church. Yeah, there were overflow.

And it was a very I mean, that just launched this explosion. Sure. And they go, look, if he exploded and we've seen this renaissance of apologetics, which we have. Sure. And and and and believers and followers of Christ are finally starting to see the value in this, which they're supposed to do biblically, you know, all of us.

Why did the atheist movement, the new atheist hit right after 9 -11 and just grow so big? If you guys had such an impact, all I can tell you is imagine what it would be like had he not. Had that impact, had there not been an impact from Ravi Zacharias and Norman Geisler and and and others when it was just growing, you know.

It was almost as if. God was kind of prepping the planet for, yeah, as a as a result of 9 -11, you know, for the most part, the full horsemen of the atheists, the new atheists and things like that. And so.

Boom, a lot of people were ready.

The Kalam Cosmological Argument, the Atonement, and Historical Adam and Eve

Yeah. And that's in there and that's in there. I think that might have been the first debate I had ever seen Dr. Craig do. And one thing that amazed me was just his razor razor sharp intellect and an ability to kind of recall certain facts.

I think it was something where he mentioned a a quotation from Josephus, I think, where him actually just saying the quote and the reference where it was found actually brought the audience to a chuckle.

People are laughing like, are you serious? I mean, he was like on page this paragraph that. And on the one hand, you could see that as, wow, what a smart guy this guy is. But on the other hand, what an encouragement and an inspiration for believers to value the facts so much that in our own engaging within within the apologetics context that we learn to memorize certain facts and Bible verses and arguments and things like that.

I think that was the big impact that Dr. Craig had on me on the one hand, of course. I mean, he's a razor sharp guy, and I think a lot of people are attracted to his work because he is a brilliant mind.

But at the same time, what an amazing example. I mean, he definitely puts that bar up there. I'm like, well, I'm not going to be at the next William Lane Craig anytime soon. But sure, I can I can learn from some of those things that he's doing.

He can speak so much over the head sometimes that you feel like you've accomplished something if you grab just a little piece like, OK, I think this I think I was able to wrap my head around. And that is helpful.

It's useful. And it speaks both to the lay person as well as to the people with the more scholarly bend. I think that's why I think I read an article just on unreasonable faith not that long ago, which it's an older article.

But he was talking a little bit about how he double dips with his work. On the one hand, he will write something that is scholarly in nature. But then he'll take that information, kind of retweak it a little bit and provide something for the lay person.

And I think that right there is striking that balance that I think he does. He does so well.

Yeah, I think so, too. And another thing, because of his position, that by the grace of God, he is he has attained it because of these major secular or mainstream colleges that he goes to the highest echelons.

Sure. He also he'll read what his opponent has written or look at a few videos or something just. And that's part of that charity that he he's talking about that I'm talking about. He's charitable. He'll say, well, what do you believe?

What do you think? And then he will he'll he'll know what they're going to say. Right. For the most part. And that's why some kind of sometimes studying, they'll say Bert Bertrand Russell said somewhere that and then Dr. Craig will get up and say, yeah, that was on page twenty eight.

Bertrand Russell said, well, I've got it right here.

That's you know, that is such an important piece.

I've seen him do that. And that's because he's read their work. Sure. And and so you and you can benefit from reading people's work, but you can also test it and see where you think the person's wrong and what a Christian response will be.

Right. And so that's part of that preparation. Right.

And I think that principle of charity is a key point. Another another apologist that does that well. And I say this with caution because he can be rough around the edges and there's always controversy surrounding him.

And he doesn't always have nice things to say about Dr. Craig, but Dr. James White over at Alpha and Omega Ministries, definitely different perspective. Right. But what I've noticed between Dr. Craig and Dr. White is that in their debates, they go out of their way to read the other side.

And I think that's something that that that principle of charity that you want to you don't want to present your argument and not care what the other person has to say, even if you disagree with it. Yeah, but I but I think what you've explained with regards to how Dr. Craig studies, where he begins his day with devotional material, there needs to be that balance that if you're going to be immersing yourself in the work of unbelievers, that you also need to be catering to your spiritual formation and your devotion time and things like that.

Why don't you speak a little bit to that? Why is that such a vital aspect of not just being a Christian in general, but doing apologetics in particular?

Yeah. And by the way, James White has had such a great impact on me as well. I mean, I just watch him on the John Ankerberg show, which was very formative in the 80s when he had that Afro. You know, I've been watching him for a long time and I admire his his abilities.

If if I were. Hope the devil didn't hear this, if I were the devil, I'd be like, William Lane Craig is one of the people I'd really try to go after. Sure. Because he has had an impact. There are plenty of people that I would try to go after.

And so, man, he does recognize that is very humbling. And so he's very consistent in his prayer life and his life. It's an it really is an inspiration because yeah, he's under attack and he could it could be a lot worse.

And I know a lot of people are praying for him because of his position. But again, very, very humbling. And you better know that, especially online, we've all learned when this happened in the mid 90s and we all started getting on and doing our apologetics online when the Internet was new.

We had to learn not to get bent out of shape with each other.

Say that again. Your voice kind of skipped out. Can you say that again?

We had to learn not to get all bent out of shape with each other. We had to learn to be charitable and loving because, man, there was a knockdown drag outs and still, you know, it still is. And you want to, you know, you could just easily start getting at home.

Right. But. He he really sees the importance of that. He really sees the the need to to ask for God's grace and really protection, because, man, I would think he'd be a big target.

And I think that's an important piece to keep in mind. There's that there's that balance. You know, people can be so obsessed with apologetics that they that's all they focus on and there's an imbalance in their own spiritual life.

And that's a detriment in and of itself as well.

I've been there. I've been there. You know. Oh, absolutely. You go into that mode and just start kind of just depending on that one aspect of your life. And and then all of a sudden you haven't. You're not doing what you told everybody else to do.

Love the Lord, you got with all your your strength, all your, you know, with all your heart, with all your mind. You know, you know, us apologists is saying, look, guys, you're leaving the mind part out of it, you know.

And so there's been a very anti intellectual movement that we've had to deal with in the church. Yeah. A lot of it, unfortunately, came out of the charismatic movement. Some of the excesses of that. Sure.

And that's not all. I'm not trying to paint with a very broad brush, but there has been a real anti intellectualism. So we've been trying to get them to come along in that area. Sure. In the meantime, they've been trying to get us to come along in the heart area.

Yeah. So there is.

That's very true. Well, let's shift gears here. And I think those are super important points to keep in mind because I don't want to keep going on it because we can speak on that. That's a that's a topic worthy of an episode in and of itself.