The Apologetic Legacy of William Lane Craig

Revealed Apologetics

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Welcome back to another show of Revealed Apologetics with your host Eli Ayala and I am super excited today because we have a wonderful guest that I'll be interviewing to discuss the topic of the apologetic legacy of Dr.

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William Lane Craig of reasonable faith and so I'm going to introduce our guest in just a few moments just by way of quick announcements.

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I'm going to be having a couple of other interviews coming up with some very fascinating guests covering various topics that range from theology apologetics and all those other related areas.

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Also if those of you who are following my ministry at any level I will also be engaging in a debate on the topic is there evidence for the

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God of the Bible and on June 2nd so stay tuned for that as well and today

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I'm super excited because we're going to be talking about the legacy of William Lane Craig who if anyone knows me specifically okay they know

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I'm a Calvinist and they know that I'm a presuppositional apologist and so you're probably wondering why on earth do

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I have a good friend of Dr. Craig Kevin Harris who actually hosts the reasonable faith podcast.

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Why would I have someone like Kevin Harris on my show talking about the apologetic legacy of William Lane Craig?

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Well if you are reformed and you are a presuppositional apologist and you have a problem with that you could always go to a different channel because regardless of my theological perspective and my apologetic perspective

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I would have to be living under a rock to not acknowledge the apologetic influence that Dr.

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Craig is having in the world of Christianity today and more specifically I would be very dishonest if I couldn't admit that Dr.

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Craig has had a profound influence on my own thinking and so it's a great pleasure and a joy to have

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Kevin Harris here and maybe one day we can get Dr. Craig as well. I have been very influenced by Dr.

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Craig's work and I think Kevin Harris has done an amazing job kind of asking the questions and sifting through material so that Dr.

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Craig can address those issues and can provide a great help to the body even if there are those who come from different perspectives.

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So without further ado I'd like to welcome Kevin Harris and if you want to take just a few seconds to tell folks about you they probably know more about you than they would about me but you can take a few moments to share a little bit about yourself and what you do.

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I was in top 40 in rock radio for a long time all during the 80s, started when

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I was in high school and moved more toward production in the 90s and I saw,

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I said you know how can I use my gifts in radio and in production and my love for apologetics and sharing my faith and sharing the cause of Christ, how can

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I somehow put those together and yet also be as mainstream as possible because I often think that we as followers of Christ miss opportunities by just going into the

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Christian world and we need to learn how to in God's grace navigate the mainstream because well that's where the people are you know and so I've tried to stay in the mainstream and be salt and light.

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I'm a salt and light guy and that takes a lot of discipline and maturity to do that because it can be treacherous from time to time and eat up by the big entertainment machine but I think that we're really doing that with reasonable faith with these podcasts.

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It's interesting, my introduction to apologetics was interesting.

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It came through my study of eschatology and so my brother -in -law actually was called upon to DJ a wedding at the last second because the

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DJ had for some whatever reason he was unable to do the wedding and so he wanted to borrow my iPod okay and hook it up to some speakers and use that for the music and so after the wedding he gave me my iPod back and I'm listening through stuff and he put music on there and a bunch of other audio material and I was like who's this

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William Lane Craig guy like and that was my first introduction to Dr.

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Craig and the Reasonable Faith Podcast and so from there I have learned so much since then and of course

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I have Dr. Craig's book here and I know folks who are involved in apologetics this is a very well -known work and as a teacher prior to getting a job as a teacher

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I was posted guard of the bathroom doing bathroom duty as a permanent sub from the morning to the afternoon and I spent my entire day guarding the bathroom like a boss and reading the living daylights out of this book and so it was immensely helpful and of course in my study of Dr.

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Craig I was very familiar with your soothing radio voice which I have to admit

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I've been listening to you for years before I actually saw what you look like and I kind of see like you don't look the same as the way you sound which is usually the case with radio do you get that a lot?

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Oh yeah, yeah gosh if you listen to a tape of me when

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I was 20 okay into a tape of me when I'm 60 which is now okay that's how ancient

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I am I still sound 20 and so if people see me and go ah you know well you know it's just part of it your voice kind of stays the same but but yeah it's it's fun it's so funny the whole history of radio back when

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I started radio you had to have a radio voice and just really puke and do all that stuff and MTV changed all that about 1981

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I mean everybody said they were more casual hey we got some music from Duran Duran coming up thanks for hanging out and radio had to adapt because we all sounded like buffoons after they're you know we're talking like this it's casual so that's one good thing a little more transparent and a little more real and the whole bit and that's moved right on into what you're doing as well we're having a conversation the podcasts that I do with Dr.

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Greger are very conversational I try to keep it on the lay level which is not hard to do because I've still got some reading to do on some of the things that we discuss so I ask from the position of a layman what the what the average person is gonna is gonna ask the thing about it is is that people who listen to reasonable faith are so sophisticated for the most part that they're going yeah yeah yeah

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I've heard all this but just think about again the mainstream that there are a lot of people who are coming in sure and want to try to find that middle ground you know as much as you and I think

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I think that's very important because I think one of the the great tasks of the apologist is to kind of take that ivory tower material and bring it down to the everyday person so it can be useful on the everyday level as well as you know it's useful within that context of scholarship and I think that's a very a very challenging thing to do but I think you do it very well because you're kind of like the inner voice in the lay person's head well

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I want to ask this and you ask it and they're like oh there you go he asked it and so hearing you kind of interact with someone like dr craig and the way you ask questions

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I think is uh to be honest I think it's I think it's amazing on multiple levels which is what I want to ask you about one of the reasons why

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I wanted to have you on and of course I mean who wouldn't want to have dr craig on as well I mean you know folks like him are very busy and we understand that goes but as I've been listening to you

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I have actually found that there is great apologetic insight in what you do not merely with dr craig answering the questions and doing the explanations and things like that what do you think is the apologetic value of doing what you do in the sense of researching material sifting through good information and bad information such that you can crystallize the issues to in such a way that yes this is the package this is what we're going to talk about this is the important issue to address how do you put your finger on the pulse of what's going on in the world around us such that you give us relevant information first of all a lot of people help

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I mean I get emails and I need to put my email out there more often because um

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I maybe I haven't done it as much but even on Facebook people will send me topics hey you ought to do a podcast on this uh hey what about this and so um people have helped from all over the world you know it'll brazil uh canada and uh everywhere um and so that's one thing um and oh man you know

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I have to go into the sewer of the uh internet and I have to wade through all the horrible things that people say about dr craig right we'll talk about that later if you want

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I mean he's the real deal I'll just give you a spoiler alert he is the real deal I'll tell you straight up and we'll talk about it but uh but I'll wade through there and kind of see what people see if I can

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I'm pretty good at getting the buzz what's what are people talking about what's the chatter I'll see what our atheist friends are talking about um kind of wade through that and some things like that and dr craig is a he's a philosopher he's a professional philosopher uh he's not an apologist first uh apologetics just kind of comes out of that and which is very valuable because we need to study philosophy and theology and all the disciplines and then culminate that into our apologetics and so I will try to take his philosophical training and knowledge which is like insane um he's such an egghead but uh and then and then find the apologetic um nugget nugget in there mine that nugget mine that nugget and bring it out so that we can use it in a practical way and so that's that's what

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I try to do yeah and and that and I'm sorry can you say that again very accommodating of that because he had rather talk about something else and then

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I'll say I'll get him down you know I'll get him down off of the uh the top shelf but again

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I have to say that people are becoming more and more sophisticated people in junior high seventh grade eighth grade they know a lot these days people are boning up on their on their apologetics and philosophy so it's good so now

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I guess a quick question for you before we move on to Dr. Craig is um can you speak to the idea of the apologetic value of what you do

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I mean what what is it what is so apologetically valuable to be able to differentiate between good material and bad material and zero in on those important issues because you're going to run into not only some simple question that you've heard a million times from your brother -in -law uh you're going to run into some of the most sophisticated atheistic non -christian materialistic philosophy out there and uh it's becoming more and more necessary to really wade through that have the basics down and then you know build from there with a better better standpoint so I would say people tend to ask the same questions sure they're certainly getting more sophisticated uh these days

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I remember back in the day uh apologetics was a secret weapon

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I mean all of us apologists were running around in the 70s and 80s cocky because we could knock you your argument out of the park and you know well all of a sudden the 90s hit and the internet hit and I was shocked to find out that there were lots of my atheist friends who

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I didn't know too many until the internet uh actually knew these arguments too and I go this is no longer the secret evangelistic weapon right or evangelism we've got to be on our game and at the same time not lose sight of glorifying the lord because you know the tendency of course is to just get into a brawl and try to line up together and stuff like that right and that's one of the things

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I appreciate with Dr. Craig is that he is in the heat of the philosophical conflicts and uh watching

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I think I've watched almost every debate he has because I've been listening for a long time um and I have not

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I can honestly say I have never seen him ever uh lose his cool in the midst of the conflict and so um even just for myself

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I'm going to ask you the question but just for myself one of the uh the things that I think um

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Dr. Craig is a perfect example of is what a Christian gentleman looks like regardless of what people might what you know other

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Christian brothers and sisters who may um you know share his philosophical and theological positions or whatever uh no one can fault him from uh for the godly character that he that he always presents uh especially in the heat of conflict and something very much that we all need to learn from so I think that's important all right well let's shift now um we're talking about the leg of the apologetic legacy of Dr.

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Craig let me ask you a question and it's going to sound a little morbid but it's it's it's not you kind of get the spirit of what I'm going to ask if Dr.

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Craig were to pass away and you were speaking at his funeral how would you briefly summarize the impact he's had on you personally and the impact as you perceived that he's had um on the

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Christian world I'd walk out and I would open my bible and I would say the

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WLC and then I was down okay because uh it's it's it's screamingly obvious I mean um not that I would

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I can't answer the question but uh he has somehow been given the grace to do these debates and these lectures and other things that have been so disseminated and so widespread um that there's just a whole lot of people who who know who he is and have been influenced by him and overlap between Armenians, Calvinists, Molinists I mean we all share the same uh apologetic value on things and so that's what he's done as well and you pointed that out during the intro uh which

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I I thought was great because while there are theological differences and and things like that there there is a lot of common ground and so he has been able to hone in on that.

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Sure. He's been able to show that he's got three rebuttals for everything anything that you can bring up and so that says that makes people interested in learning.

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Not again not so you can one -up somebody but so that you can represent better so that you can make a bigger impact so that you can represent your faith better and um and and you're right he he is a gentleman he genuinely cares and he's charitable he will give his his opponent his debate opponent when he reads their material or if they say something he'll give them the benefit of the doubt he will try not to set up a straw man he will try to really hone in on what they say and then interact with it so um this has captured a lot of people um and electrified them.

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Sure. It's caused them to want to uh at least bone up and a lot of people say well I'm going to debate like that you know well it's

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I'm telling you that takes a lot of research if you're going to have a mainstream debate thing debates are great you know

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I used to do them um and uh but but it takes a lot of prep you know.

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Well let's just say Dr. Craig knows how to come prepared for a fight. He really does.

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Now now now less people I could say um from my knowledge of him as kind of just the person who's followed his work um he's got a razor sharp mind obviously he's got a a kind of uh charming and cheesy scholar sense of humor so that kind of is it's kind of like it's cheesy but it's

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Dr. Craig so it's okay but he uses that to his benefit when making some point that he wants to get across and I think there is there is a um there is a balance to how he uh presents arguments and he uses a mixture as I see it of the intellectual strength of the argument along with the

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Christian character the character that's required to engage in those sorts of discussions and kind of that little charm that he has to make a point

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I think all of these things other apologists can can learn from in that we try to employ all of the uh the things that God has given us um to uh the purpose of promoting the gospel giving an answer to those who uh you know who ask us for the reason for the hope that's in us and I think he exemplifies that very uh very well now on a more personal level what what kind of for people who are only familiar with Dr.

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Craig at that professional level uh what sort of person is he um just uh um you know when you're just having a basic conversation

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I have a friend uh who is um uh he's over at Trinity radio radio is a Christian apologist

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I believe he's the the president of uh Trimony uh Trinity Bible College um I think there's a complicated name it's a it doesn't roll off the tongue but uh

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Braxton Hunter who uh had the pleasure of going with Dr. Craig and a few others uh on a trip to Israel and I asked him a while back you know how was

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Dr. Craig and and you know in that setting where he's kind of just hanging out you guys are traveling along and he's like he's exactly the same so I kind of get that consistent answer do you think that there that Dr.

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Craig is a different Dr. Craig when he's kind of like laid back having normal conversations or or does he give you syllogisms for everything um well what you see is what you get he uh he really cares about people and he really cares about the arguments and he's disturbed by misrepresentations um of the

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Christian faith he's disturbed by um unsophisticated you know theology that we need to be as sophisticated as we can in our theology and our

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Bible knowledge in the grace of God um and so he's very passionate about that but he but he cares about people he started in ministry in the in the you know in college um working with young people working with people in the dorm and he just he really does care um this if you'll listen to the podcast

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Dr. Craig's secret weapon uh his wife Jan that was great man she is something and she um has uh she keeps him organized and it's helped him really uh in fact

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I um we all need a Jan in our lives my wife pretty much that way she's kind of like that very practical because Dr.

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Craig is thinking these you know he's going over philosophy and in theology and thinking about uh infinite regresses and uh and and vicious ones and and and so he's in thought and he's pouring everything into this and that's hard to stay organized when you're doing this me

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I'm a creative guy and my brains are totally on that side okay so I'm here it's hard for me to be organized and I've learned from Jan just from the over 10 years of of um of watching her because I'm thinking pink blue colors and I can be just a you know real scatterbrick yeah

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I suppose I suppose if we are to talk about the legacy of Dr.

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Craig it's really impossible to talk about the legacy of Dr. Craig without mentioning the influence of his wife and being behind I mean that that in that particular episode of Reasonable Faith where you guys spoke about you know

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Dr. Craig's secret weapon I mean it just goes to show the importance of having a significant other that stands behind you in your ministry and gives you the strength uh to you know emotional strength or whatever whatever kind of support that that that is a very very important feature as to you know how an apologist or a minister or a pastor whatever can be effective to to the best degree possible

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I think that's I think it's amazing yes and he's he's very disciplined of course

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Jan I'm sure has helped with that but sure he does this at this point and this at this point and working from his home office you know you have to yeah because it'd be very easy just to chill as we're all finding out yeah it takes a lot of discipline if you're going to you know work out of your home and he sticks to it he sticks to it he has a time that he looks at email he has a time that he's going to read and he's up early early in the morning and what if I could interrupt you there

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I do apologize I think people would be interested in this and I know that Dr. Craig has mentioned it in articles because people have asked this question but maybe you can kind of uh specify what does a study day for Dr.

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Craig look like have you ever spoken about that with him I mean what time does he wake up what does he like to read how does that all work out throughout his day do you ever talk about that with him yeah

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I do and he boy he's been doing the same thing for a long time he's very consistent and that's why

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I think he's so effective he is just uh he's up I think for 4 30 in the morning goes to bed early gets up early devotions straight off the bat he gets up and he will read passage then he'll read a report or something that he's interested in sure that's more devotional rather than philosophical like for a while he was going through the to the church fathers and for a while he was going through his devotions for a while he was going through the growth of the church in different areas and so he knew you know a lot about that and then um and then he prays uh works out um he's got a muscular uh ailment that he has to really keep an eye on he eats right

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Jan sees to that um he's in really good shape he has struggled with uh with you know with that health issues but he has stayed on top of it and and so he gets exercise um and then he probably hits that study um right towards seven o 'clock in the morning and goes till five you know and so um or or sometimes longer yeah but so the key thing is is consistency yes and he

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I mean he won't check he won't check email this is insane to me you know because we have phone

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I mean I got to check this thing every five minutes and email uh he very seldom will he ever check it before five in the afternoon if they're confident

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Jan will come down and let him know you know but he really sticks to it you know well that that's actually it makes me feel really special because Dr.

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Craig is a high -class philosopher he's renowned around the world I reach out to people all the time uh to uh you know do interviews like this and it's very hard to get in touch with people and uh there are people who

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I've messaged multiple times and just you know I acknowledge people are busy and I reach out no responses but I I have to say

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I have reached out to Dr. Craig on Facebook and he has responded to every every uh even if it's a quick question hey what what bible translation do you use it gives me the time of day and I think uh for me who

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I'm I mean he doesn't know who I am I'm just a friend on Facebook and I think uh someone of his stature who recognizes um the impact that he's having

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I think when he's able to he finds it important to you know uh say hello or to or to you know answer a person's question

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I think that's that's really difficult to maintain everything you're doing and also pay attention to the people that are not really involved in your life but you're just kind of aware of your even your

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Facebook profile or something like that I think that's very um I think it says a lot about his character

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I'll guarantee you he'll be on your show you know he's doing a lot more interviews these days yeah

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I'll hook you up as well because I appreciate that to be on it'd be great for him to be on so yeah yeah he's doing a lot more interviews these days yeah well

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I would greatly appreciate that I'd love to have him you bet um but that now now when we're speaking about uh the the legacy of Dr.

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Craig what do you what do you think in your estimation is the impact that he's making in the world of atheism

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I mean how do atheists around the world people that he debates how is he being perceived on the philosophical landscape today as you see it you know

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I think the respect for him has grown among the atheist agnostic non -christian um anti -theistic community um for a while everything you read was was just horrible um it was all at home and I you know if you think about it suppose you know that you there was a

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Mormon apologist who was so good and so smooth and so effective and had three answers to everything that you said and could was an outstanding debater it'd be you know you'd you'd kind of go get a little sour grapes there

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I know let's see if we can find something on this guy okay so um and which is not charitable and it's not

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Christlike to do that but um a lot of it has been just because he's been so effective and his argumentation is his arguments are good um and he's been you know has been consistent so I see a growing um admiration for him and there are others who have always admired him who are very prominent uh in the like in the new atheist movement and in some of that group um and who were around before all that happened in the early 2000s who always admired him and are good friends with him so that that's good um somebody asked me the other day

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Dr. Craig really he started kind of having an impact with Willow Creek debate in the in the 90s uh late 90s and because Zindler the guy that he debated was just real formidable and people were very much that debate multiple times by the way man he hit a brick wall and I watched that on like a

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VHS uh I bought that that that debated

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VHS and I was stunned and I started calling Dr. Craig to interview him on my show right because he did such a good job without being snarky yeah and well and that kicked it and then

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I was at a debate in Dallas Texas uh right around 98 99 wherever it was uh when he debated

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Parsons there were 4 ,000 people at that big mega church yeah there were overflow and that was a very

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I mean that just launched this explosion sure and they go look if he exploded and we're we've seen this renaissance of apologetics which we have sure and um and and and believers and followers of Christ are finally starting to see the value in this which they're supposed to do biblically you know all of us uh why did the atheist movement the new atheist hit right after 9 -11 and just grow so big if you guys had such an impact all

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I can tell you is imagine what it would be like had he not had that impact had there not sure uh impact from Robbie Zacharias and Norman Geisler and and and others when it was just growing you know um it was almost as if God was kind of prepping the planet for yeah as a as a result of uh of 9 -11 you know for the most part the full horsemen of the atheists uh the new atheists and things like that and so boom a lot of people were ready yeah and and that Zindler and that Zindler debate

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I think that might have been the first debate I had ever seen Dr. Craig do and one thing that amazed me was just his razor razor sharp intellect and an ability to kind of recall certain facts

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I think it was something where he mentioned a a quotation from Josephus I think where I him actually just saying the quote and the reference where it was found actually brought the audience to a chuckle people are laughing like are you serious

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I mean he was like on page this paragraph that and um on the one hand you could see that as wow what a smart guy this guy is but on the other hand what an encouragement and an inspiration for believers to value the facts so much that in our own engaging within a within the apologetics context that we learn to memorize uh certain facts and bible verses and arguments and things like that I think that was the big impact that Dr.

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Craig had on me on the one hand of course I mean he's a razor sharp guy and I think a lot of people are attracted to his work because he is a brilliant mind but at the same time what an amazing example

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I mean he definitely puts that bar up there I'm like well I'm not going to be at the next William Lane Craig anytime soon but sure

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I can I can learn from some of those things that he's doing that he can speak so much over the head sometimes that you feel like you've accomplished something if you grab just a little piece like okay

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I think this I think I was able to wrap my head around and that is helpful it's useful and it speaks both to the lay person as well as to uh the people with the more scholarly bend

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I think that's why I think I read an article just on unreasonable faith not that long ago which it's an older article but he was talking a little bit about how he double dips with his work uh on the one hand he will write something that is scholarly in nature but then he'll take that information kind of retweak it a little bit and provide something for the lay person and I think that right there is striking that balance that I think he does he does so well yeah

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I think so too and another thing because of his position um that by the grace of God he is he has attained it because of these major secular or mainstream colleges that he goes to the highest echelons sure he also he'll read what his opponent has written or look at a few videos or something just and that's part of that charity that he he's talking about that I was talking about he's charitable he'll say well what do you believe what do you think and then he will he'll he'll know what they're going to say right for the most part and that's why some kind of sometimes studying they'll say

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Bert Bertrand Russell said somewhere that uh and then Dr. Craig will get up and say yeah that was on page 28

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Bertrand Russell said well I've got it right here that's you know that is such an important piece

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I've seen him do that and that's because he's read um their their work sure and and so he uh and you can benefit from reading people's work but you can also um um test it and see where you think the person's wrong and what what a

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Christian response will be right and so that's part of that preparation right and I think that principle of charity is a key point another another uh apologist that does that well and and I I say this with caution because he can be rough around the edges and there's always controversy surrounding him and he doesn't always have nice things to say about Dr.

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Craig but Dr. James White over at Alpha and Omega Ministries definitely different perspective right but what

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I've noticed uh between Dr. Craig and Dr. White is that in their debates they go out of their way to read the other side and I think that's something that that that principle of charity that you want to you don't want to present your argument and not care what the other person has to say even if you disagree with it yeah but I but I think what you've explained uh with regards to how

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Dr. Craig studies where he begins his day with devotional material there needs to be that balance that if you're going to be immersing yourself in the work of unbelievers that you also need to be catering to your spiritual formation and your devotion time and things like that why don't you speak a little bit to that what why is that such a vital uh aspect of not just being a

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Christian in general but doing uh apologetics in particular yeah and by the way James White has had such a great impact on me as well

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I mean I just watch him on the John Ankerberg show which was very for him in the 80s when he had that afro you know

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I've been watching him for a long time and uh and admire his uh his abilities um if if I were hope the devil doesn't hear this if I were the devil

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William Lane Craig is one of the people I'd really try to go after sure because he has had an impact there are plenty of people that I would try to go after and so uh man he does recognize that uh it's very humbling and so he's very consistent in his prayer life in his life it's an is it really is an inspiration because yeah he's under attack and he could it could be a lot worse and I know a lot of people are are praying for him because of his position sure but again very very humbling and and you better know that um especially online we've all learned when this happened in the mid 90s and we all started getting on and doing our apologetics online when the internet was new we had to learn not to get out of shape with each other say say that again your voice kind of skipped out but what can you say that again we had to learn not to get all bent out of shape with each other we had to learn to be charitable and loving because man there were some knockdown drag outs and and still you know it still is um and you want to you know you could just easily start getting into ad homes right but he um he really sees the importance of that um he really sees the uh the need to to ask for God's grace and and really protection because uh man

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I would think he'd be a big target um and I think that's an important piece to keep in mind there's that there's that balance you know people can be so obsessed with apologetics that they that's all they focus on and there's an imbalance in their own spiritual life and that's a detriment in and of itself as well

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I've been there I've been there you know yeah oh absolutely you go into that mode and just start kind of just depending on that one aspect of your life and um and then all of a sudden you haven't you're not doing what you told everybody else to do love the lord you got with all your your strength all your you know with all your heart with all your mind and you know us apologists are saying look guys y 'all leaving the mind part out of it you know and so uh there's been a very anti -intellectual movement that we've had to deal with in the church yeah a lot of it unfortunately came out of the charismatic movement some of the excesses of that sure and that's not all

38:17

I'm not trying to paint with a very broad brush but there has been a real anti -intellectualism so we've been trying to get them to come along in that area sure in this meantime they've been trying to get us to come along in the heart area yeah so there is that's very true uh well let's shift gears here um and I think those are super important points to keep in mind because I don't want to keep going on it because we can speak on that that's a that's a topic worthy of an episode in and of itself the importance of keeping that devotional balance and that you know a full kind fully robust spiritually healthy life a good apologist is one who is also um being obedient to God in those other areas right because I'm sure

38:57

I'm sure you're aware that it is quite possible to do apologetics unbiblically we can we can right so so uh so let's leave that aside that's very important we give uh some folks something to think about now um kind of a fun question here if you um had to identify your favorite reasonable faith uh episode in which after you were done with it you were like man that was a great conversation you know dr craig was on point in these on these issues and I think people are really impacted by that what would you identify as your favorite um reasonable faith episode wow um well one of my favorite episodes is because um uh dr craig he really gets into a zone and I do too where we're we don't let our emotions show you know we're trying to do all this and um we kind of key off of each other guys you know a couple of men but we both got emotional several times and one of them was dr craig's secret weapon talking about jan and I let in I could have edited it out but you could hear you get getting choked up at the end if you listen to that um that's that's one of them

40:17

I don't know sometimes we are so excited about a topic um that uh it'll really come out um um this spot is fun but the the the west wing episode that we did oh yeah homosexuality a christian response to homosexuality that has helped a lot of people because I think he got some deafens down that needed to be gotten down and aspects of the issue of of homosexuality that needed to be spelled out and that we needed to be a little more precise in our in our terminology and some things because it was just all kind of weird stuff and I I think he did a job on that our compassion and love but at the same time spelling out what we need to do as a church um for people same -sex attracted yeah yeah um of a big that last week episode that you know that a lot of people that pointed to us nailed all you christians you know sure in that in that episode it's well well written it's well written it is it is quick and it ties things together it hits all the stereotypical ways of looking at that particular topic with old testament laws and how you would apply it today um and it it was sharp and of course you have someone like uh what was it michael douglas who played the president or something like that was it michael douglas and sheen um martin michael douglas there we go sheen there we go martin sheen did play though okay

42:12

I remember the episode I remember the the actual episode of the show I remember the reasonable faith episode okay and and and so uh let me ask you a more subtle question and and maybe you could answer maybe you can't

42:24

I asked you what your favorite episode was what do you think is the most important episode that you've done that afterwards you're like hey this is a central issue that people need to get down they're talking about it and this and after coming away from that episode you were like yes this is going to be very helpful and important to the church uh as people listen in well we've done several on same -sex attraction sexuality and that I think are really going to help uh there are three or four all of them

42:55

I think were good and so those those have been important because for so long uh

43:01

I mean we had to resist that's all people um in in in in the last several years all people wanted to know what does derek think about gender issues and things like that and he's disciplined enough where he will stay in his lane and so he has sometimes he's we're we're in territory that's not his specialty like social uh social um what am

43:31

I trying to say um social issues and things like that um where you have to be pretty versed in sociology and culture and that and so people want to know what he has to say about these things and I'll push him from time to time bill you're going to have to talk about this uh even if you just go pastoral you know maybe just offer you know some of the insight and things like that most of the time he he goes

43:59

I need to stay in my lane this is this is my area you know but yeah um so but anyway so we we do get into important cultural and social issues from time to time and some of those

44:12

I think have been very important but probably not as important as some of the stuff that we've done on cosmology and the kalam the design argument the moral argument um platonism and things like that because that will give you a foundation by which to launch against and tear down these arguments effectively because all of them will have tentacles from these from these views when these worldviews from this philosophy right these philosophies that we need to evaluate and be able to respond to and so um and and and obviously um boys boy that's really hard I'd have to really for a while but his work on the atonement is also very very important because again we we'd kind of gotten lazy on the atonement in the church it seems to me and we kind of scattered out and didn't really know what we believed and um so his work on the atonement for a lot of people he's tightened that back up biblically and philosophically to where it really needs to be okay more rigorous view of the atonement because sure you know we were all yeah yeah now

45:33

I have not read I've read a lot of his work not his not specific although I might have something on the

45:39

I think I have this little book over here uh on the atonement here that I have not uh read yet but I eventually will get

45:46

I mean there's just so much to read but I definitely want to get to uh maybe if I wake up at 4 30 in the morning maybe

45:53

I'll have time to you know you would think Dr. Craig when he wakes up he's spending at least a half hour on social media yeah there you go he's like this is the this is a green screen background so uh they're not even real um now you said something very important and I think is very useful for people is when you're talking a little bit about how

46:12

Dr. Craig knows to stay in his lane please unpack the the importance of this within the context of apologetics because um if you're familiar with online apologetics you know everyone's an expert you know right everyone's an expert on the topic and so they try to speak uh to areas

46:31

Christians will try to speak to areas that they have no business uh speaking in um why don't you tell us the value of knowing to stay in your own lane and kind of use uh

46:40

Dr. Craig as the example there even being who he is you know he's kind of the guy to go to in the area of apologetics for a lot of people but he still knows hey that's not my not my area yeah um it's okay to know a little bit about everything by the way the air conditioner just kicked on that's okay

46:59

I need to run over there and turn it off I will if it's uh okay but it it's great to know and have a a well -orbed um be educated on a whole lot of things but where are your gifts where are your passions um that's that's a gift from God and it probably when you were six seven eight years old it was beginning to form and so just look at your whole life and so yeah what where is it that I can be most effective what are my areas of interest you know that I do well and I think that uh all of us have to do that but I'm telling you when you get online you get in these chat rooms back in the day and in some of the forums now people ask a billion questions sure and so the pressure is to know it all you know uh

47:58

I'm I have done so many podcasts with platonism on platonism with dr craig but I I've put that off a little bit

48:08

I need to bone up on that so much more and I am interested in the topic but um there's still a lot that I need to read sure you know um so um

48:21

I'll try to get to it and you know when I can but where are and then

48:28

I had to decide for me as well I'll tell you this well am I going to be um a person who teaches and who debates and who lectures and apologetics because I'm I I'm so overwhelmed with the with the with the topic or am

48:51

I going to use my stronger gifts production radio podcasting sure creativity music and all that and facilitate those who have the education so for a while they're thinking do

49:08

I need to go back to school you know and that'd be great why did you get my phd you know in order to do this and no you know you don't have to be smart you just have to be informed sure and so um and you can be largely self -taught but there are a lot of people who they do need to get their phd they do need to go to seminary they need to be teaching they need to be lecturing and debating and writing and doing that but uh but not everybody sure uh it's got that and then those guys need you and me you know as well who've got some some of the creative things going on in the interview process yeah what's happening yeah yeah now now

49:53

I've I've engaged in some debates uh online as well and some on youtube that that are available on my my youtube channel and I tell people right away um

50:01

I have and this is a removing the burden off the shoulders of the apologist and I think this is this would be helpful just what

50:07

I'm about to share about myself and what I'll share about Dr. Craig is that if someone asks a question it is a great powerful apologetical tool to say

50:16

I don't know that's a great question let me let me go back because that that shows that you respect where the person's coming from and that caters to prolonging the interaction the people don't just look at you as kind of you're just trying to pull an answer out of thin air

50:30

I think there is a great apologetical god -honoring value in admitting when you don't know something um and I and I've never

50:39

I've never heard Dr. Craig in a debate say well I'm not sure about that maybe he has um but I did remember his debate with Hector Avalos in which

50:48

Hector Avalos pointed out an error in one of Dr. Craig's books I believe and I was like oh my goodness is this true and you're going back and forth the first time you know and how is

50:58

Dr. Craig gonna respond and Dr. Craig if I remember correctly admitted the error and says yeah I gotta change that and I was so drawn aback by the integrity of here you have

51:08

Hector Avalos who was just really going for the jugular and um putting

51:14

Dr. Craig in a corner and Dr. Craig had no problem saying yeah you know that that's that's that's something

51:19

I need to go and fix and not only did that not derail Dr. Craig his argument still came on top even if you're granted the you know the error there um he was able to be the gentleman show his honesty in the discussion and mount uh a great defense for the resurrection yes absolutely

51:35

I've seen him do that a few times where he'll go nope gotta change that you know yeah sometimes it's the publisher you know if you're in publishing you gotta make sure that that they get it right too right somebody online will you know you'll get an email from somebody who's reading on page 432 some some kind of thing and you go

51:58

I didn't put that in there and so you gotta go back and you know that'll happen from time to time but yeah just be transparent be authentic sure not right at all costs you know um be willing to to just humbly say well yeah yeah you know you're right but um um well the debates that he's done for the most part have never been that way

52:23

I mean that the issues were clear -cut yeah they were large and just demanded rigorous um philosophical theological answers and responses both defensive and offensive right now what what would you say is your favorite debate that he's engaged in what do you think when you watched it you were kind of like man that was a great back and forth there's a lot of meat here people are going to find this valuable yeah um there are a lot of good ones probably the

52:56

Zimmer debate had the biggest impact on me because it launched this whole thing I eventually called

53:03

Dr. Craig and said Bill I've been um for a long time

53:09

I've been interviewing you we need to do our own show for radio he goes yeah some people tell me that this podcasting thing is going to be a big deal maybe we need to do that okay well let's try to do both so we are looking toward um you know looking forward to doing some radio as well sure sure yeah oh god

53:29

I see that I have one percent power left on this I'm gonna have to plug this in in just a minute yeah good why don't you take a few moments and I'll just make a couple of announcements there you want to plug that in now see if I can find a plug yeah all right uh well folks um

53:42

I hope you guys are enjoying this discussion I love this sort of stuff I know a lot of people like to just jump into some theological issues and and apologetical issues but I love to take uh an influential thinker and kind of uh look at their legacy look at the impact that they're making um uh studied the you know learn about the different ways that the person studies

54:01

I like to learn about those uh sorts of things and so I hope you guys are enjoying this especially coming from uh

54:07

Kevin Harris who who knows Dr. Craig very well so we kind of get like an insider scoop so to speak now um of course those of you who know my uh my own uh theological and apologetical convictions of course

54:19

I am reformed I'm a Calvinist uh Dr. Craig obviously is is not okay um and I'm a presuppositionalist in my apologetic methodology um but at the same time one of the goals that I have with doing this uh ministry revealed apologetics obviously is to promote apologetics in general and being a presuppositionalist promoting presuppositional apologetics um specifically but one of my goals also is to build bridges between the differing apologetic methodologies because without compromising one's apologetic convictions you can still find benefit from uh interacting with with other material and uh and seeing kind of the value that other apologists from different methodologies the value that they can bring to uh to our study of apologetics and so I I I want to just kind of encourage people not to be so narrow that they just can't stand learning something from someone who doesn't agree with them right and of course we're not undermining those disagreements obviously certain disagreements are you know they're a big deal

55:25

I think apologetic methodology is important I think the issues of Calvinism Arminianism and Molinism those those issues are important we don't want to downplay those things um but I think we need to learn to live with certain differences um seek to understand what the other side is saying and then what you'll find is uh just as there are inaccurate representations of a presuppositional apologetics uh sometimes there can be inaccurate representations of the presuppositional representing the classical side or the evidential side and so I think these are important things to to keep in mind

56:01

I am by no means uh uh compromising my strong convictions I'm a I'm a I'm a a very ardent follower of the presuppositional methodology um

56:10

I'm I have very high regard for Dr. Cornelius Van Til and Greg Bonson um but I do not want to eliminate uh many of the other resources that are out there within the

56:21

Christian community that can serve a great purpose now um I just want to ask you guys for just a few minutes

56:27

I'm going to try to reconnect with with Kevin here and uh let's see if I can get him back on I think in his attempt to reconnect um let's see here that there is a connection issue let's see just bear with me folks okay and uh connect all right let me see here okay so I've sent uh

57:11

Kevin the link here uh can someone give me a heads up if you guys can hear me okay yeah okay

57:17

I'm gonna put uh Kevin back on let's see here and you are back on sorry about that okay that is quite all right no no worries at all um yeah while you were while you were gone

57:35

I was just talking about the importance of being able to benefit from those whom we disagree again as I mentioned before I am a presuppositional apologist

57:45

I am very heavily read in in Cornelius Van Til and Dr. Greg Bonson um but I've always had a great appreciation for the classical tradition and I do think that the methodological differences are important but I think that a lot of people have seen these differences in such a way that they've uh they've seen no value in looking at the other side and saying hey that's actually a really useful thing let's see if we can um benefit from the different methodologies and we may have different theological convictions but there's definitely uh kind of a a a how can

58:20

I say this there's there's a way to benefit even with those with whom we disagree and I and my goal is to build bridges um not only between presuppositionalists and classicalists but with calvinists and molinists and arminians again not to undermine the differences we have those strong convictions um but but let's talk about them and I think a lot of people are so narrow -minded in the sense that nope this is where I stand and I'm not even going you know heresy and that we throw that word around a lot and so I was just talking about how we need to be careful about that oh yeah and there's so much value to read each other and to to find out where you come down on a particular issue and why right but if you're not reading

59:03

Bonson if you're not um if you don't avail yourself of stuff that James White is is saying and what he's written you're ripping yourself off I mean uh there's some good stuff and um so don't you know don't be so narrow you know and convince you you're exactly right these are as you say important issues they're still peripheral but they are important you know so we hold to the essentials of course well 101 but uh the peripheral issues can be very important as well yeah and so yeah we we can learn a lot from each other a lot of these are in -house debates and uh

59:52

I'm a little more charity for a while we're kind of going after everybody's the calvos were in the precepts yeah

01:00:00

I mean and just really nag getting in each other's grill and uh

01:00:07

I'm saying enough guys come on right and now I'm seeing I'm seeing a little more dialogue you know and I'm seeing some good nerd uh ribbing each other right all right well that's what

01:00:20

I'm trying to do here with this show I I usually get uh if I'm not doing something myself and teaching something apologetically or theologically

01:00:27

I like to have uh you know conversations for example we did have James White on on this show critiquing

01:00:32

Molinism and of course I had uh Tim Stratton over at Free Thinking Ministries to come and respond to Dr.

01:00:38

White's critique of Molinism so you could hear both sides and I think um regardless of where you stand that's a useful tool

01:00:45

I mean you can learn from hearing both because what I find um as I'm a Calvinist I used to be a

01:00:50

Molinist and I used to before that used to hold a different position but when I came out of Molinism and I don't mean that in a pejorative sense uh like came out of it like it was some cult or something that's not what

01:01:00

I mean um but when I came out of it I did notice that a lot of the the critiques that were offered by my

01:01:07

Calvinist brothers were misrepresentations and so again I'm a Calvinist I I I someone's someone just made a comment

01:01:15

Eli keeps touching his face that's a no -no I'm so sorry I have to be careful of what's going on over here um but um

01:01:23

I think having these kinds of conversations open up those gateways of communication so that even if you disagree in the end at least you understand the person's perspective more accurately.

01:01:35

Think about Matt Slick. Matt Slick had one of the first Christian websites in the history of the planet you know

01:01:42

Christian Apologetics Research Ministry gosh I guess it was the mid -90s he got he got good at that he got good at making a website and bulletin boards and you know and and these debate boards and stuff like that early he was he just had a knack for it he got con launched and we all just flocked there we learned so much from that and he's

01:02:09

Calvinist um and um I've stayed with in Matt's house a couple of days with his family

01:02:17

I mean we have this great relationship I didn't know that Matt's a good friend of mine I didn't know that you guys were connected anyway and so we learned to um um he's invited me to speak to some of his conferences and some things like that um we just learned um where to be to be close and be friends uh despite some peripheral differences you know sure sure yeah um now uh we're gonna try to wrap things up and I want to kind of bring it back to Dr.

01:02:50

Craig but I think those are important conversations to have and I think um the communication between the different groups and different perspectives and things like that need that built bridges need to be built and they don't always have to be built within the context of debate and so a lot of people might be frustrated with Dr.

01:03:07

Craig for example when he doesn't want to debate other Christians and so you have the you have the people who are very hungry well we want to hear how he would defend against this person they're so obsessed with this you know and and I'm guilty of that too

01:03:19

I'd love to see you know Dr. Craig and someone like James White hash out you know uh you know apologetic methodology or Calvin it was interesting you know but at the same time

01:03:29

I kind of understand where Dr. Craig is coming from me I think he has a good sense and maybe you can kind of confirm this

01:03:35

I think he has a good sense of the importance of the work that he's doing that he doesn't want to veer off to engage in some of these never -ending uh kind of disputes that are kind of in -house that are important like you mentioned uh but are not necessary for what he's doing would

01:03:50

I be correct there yeah um mission statement you know you can read the mission statement and also his personal mission statement is he will lecture and debate in the top colleges and universities in the world with some of the top scholars in the world and that's what he's been given the grace to do uh a lot of people would do a really good job at debating some of these top atheist scholars but they won't get because they don't have the credentials and you know and things like that um and you know the whole credentials debate and things like that did you and you you got to be as assistant as you can with your strategy um uh and I think there'll be some really good debates from non -Ph .D.

01:04:43

people who would like to debate Dr. Craig but he's just trying to be a consistent knowing how academia works sure and how and if you're going to continue to be invited back it's going to have to be a certain decorum and strategy and some things like that um but at the same time if you'll look on reasonablefaith .org

01:05:06

around the website you'll see that he has interacted theologians who

01:05:12

Christian docs and evangelical even on some of those in -house debates in print so he needs to do those just responding and goals and and things like that and the public debates he's more interested in doing what

01:05:31

I spell and that is you know debate the uh materialist the atheist the agnostics scholar you know and I think that's a very important to oh

01:05:41

I'm sorry go ahead your voice skipped out I didn't want to I'm saying that's him but I am glad to see good uh interactions and even debates uh between brethren between you know

01:05:53

Christian scholars on some of these issues so that we can so that we can be educated on them yeah yeah and and I I think it's important to recognize too that we we live in a very visual uh society and so everyone looks at these uh

01:06:10

YouTube videos you know uh the podcast and things like that and I think people need to understand

01:06:15

I think people know this but they don't really it doesn't really you know process in their minds Dr.

01:06:20

Craig is a scholar and the majority of his work is in scholarship research and writing and so these debates although very popular is not the main focus of of what he's all about and so to his defense uh especially for many of my

01:06:37

Calvinist friends who wish you know wishes he would debate some person you know whoever that might be we have to grant him that even though he hasn't engaged in a lot of public debates on in -house issues he has addressed those issues in writing that's available for people uh so we can't act as though as though those things don't exist if you're interested in what

01:06:55

Dr. Craig thinks about those areas you know read those materials uh just because he doesn't cater to our visual audio sensibilities to touch on the topics we wish he would um he has addressed those in writing and I think people need to avail themselves of that and guess what if you disagree with him okay that's what the material is there for so you can work with and grapple with um and I think he does that quite charitably it's really a matter of sticking with your strategy sure because people think why doesn't

01:07:22

Dr. Craig debate Matt Dillahunty you know the big atheist spokesman who does the show down in Austin well it's not a pride thing it's not an arrogant thing it's just a strategy thing and then good debate you know but um

01:07:42

Jeffrey J. Louder you know has wanted to debate Dr. Craig for a long time and there's great admiration for for Dr.

01:07:49

Craig but to his to Dr. Craig's credit he is stuck with a strategy and again he knows kind of behind the scenes how academia works sure if you get into too much what they'll can be fluffy that it could it could harm your ability to be invited for a lecture series or for a debate or to write in one of the journals to be published in all those things that we don't tend to know as people um but um

01:08:25

I do want to see good you know some good debates on doctrine you know yeah and so we can start working on and have a better a clearer aspect of God's sovereignty human responsibility uh okay what are the views of free will what people need to know that people do need to know that and so there's a lot of room for it it's just it's just Dr.

01:08:50

Craig uh he's he's kind of strategy he's probably going to you know stick to it now okay so so we're going to try to wrap things up a little bit

01:08:58

I'm going to ask you one question which is a reiteration of the first question I asked you one of the first questions I asked you um and it overall if we were to summarize then uh if we were if someone were to say uh

01:09:09

Kevin what do you think is the the overriding legacy of Dr. Craig now and a legacy that you perceive him to leave behind when he's gone what how would you answer those two questions what is his legacy now and what is his legacy as you perceive that one day when he's no longer with us uh what does he leave behind that is a great benefit to the church he has probably been instrumental in the kalam cosmological argument and very cosmological argument that needs to be in the forefront but we all stand on the shoulders of giants just like he dies but um and you know and he loves

01:09:53

Alvin Platt has great admiration for Dr.

01:09:58

Platt again but he's really brought the kalam front and center um his his work on the atonement

01:10:06

I think uh is very strong and I want to tell you what what

01:10:12

I think is going to happen I think he's again by the grace of God he's going to be very instrumental on where we are on any of the historical

01:10:24

Adam and Eve while the biblical scientific archaeological geological uh genealogical questions and all these things that uh some of the new scholarships is coming out

01:10:38

I think he's for some reason that a lot of this has moved toward him and um he's facilitating some people like Josh Swamadas who've done a lot of good uh and and kind of giving them a platform as well and figuring out what you know well in light of some of the new stuff

01:11:01

Bill is saying and Dr. Craig is saying himself where do I fall on this you know in light of some of the newest evidence and what is the newest evidence and things like that sure and so you're going to see a lot of work coming out and also being either inspired or facilitated for Dr.

01:11:18

Craig on this question yeah so he he hopes that his work on the kalam and the atonement uh leaves a legacy but I'm telling you

01:11:30

I think that that this Adam and Eve question and some of the newest stuff that's coming out and it's all good you know there's nothing

01:11:37

I don't think anything really radical sure going on there uh and and another thing is he seems to think sometimes that when when he's gone when the

01:11:47

Lord calls him home um that that'll be it as far as reasonable faith and the legacy and things like that I don't want that to happen uh you know and personally

01:12:02

I don't not that you know I mean his work is going to be around forever but I want to continue to build on some of the stuff that he's put in motion and he's not going anywhere anytime soon he works out he's right

01:12:16

I could tell I've seen some pictures man he's got some he's got some pretty pretty big guns for a guy his age now now

01:12:24

I I do think that there is one one piece of advice that I can give to Dr.

01:12:30

Craig measly little me uh if I can give any advice to Dr. Craig if he wants his arguments to be sharper and more powerful is he needs to grow back his beard because he sounds much more convincing

01:12:41

I don't know every time I watch those older debates with that beard man he sounds brilliant I mean he sounds brilliant either way but the beard it's got it's got power that he needs to tap into again what do you think about that hilarious funny the memes that come out are about Dr.

01:13:00

Craig and his beard you know that's right and uh I'm gonna try to bring the mullet back you can you can do it my contribution to uh apologetics is bringing the mullet back 1988 but uh listen we don't we don't need the mullet anymore if you bring back the mullet people are just gonna it's gonna add more ammunition to the problem of evil if god is good why do mullets exist come on all right are there any um closing uh words you'd like to uh leave us with a word of encouragement or something before we wrap things up I think we've covered a lot of good bases uh you're

01:13:39

Eli I appreciate your emphasis on getting along in -house um finding where we have common ground because we do have the great commission that we're working toward together um and being charitable and being loving uh not trying to just stand under a waterfall you know and and take it all in at the same time because there's a lot of information out there but to learn as you go find out where you specialize but I will tell you this

01:14:14

I'm I'm a guy who's Texas um I'm pretty parent

01:14:20

I pretty much tell it like it is he is the real deal he is a genuine um king individual who loves god who loves his family and who who loves everything he engages with um he's got to be firm because of the onslaught of naturalism materialism atheism and all these things but he really is a decent caring human being and I've had a lot of we do these podcasts and we break for lunch and we try not to talk about apologetics and philosophy we try to get around other topics and I've been doing this for over 10 years going to lunch with him sure and I can just tell you he's a real deal we've been vulnerable and then we'll go to the dinner when

01:15:15

Jan will come along and so uh they are an admirable couple they have a great marriage it's it's almost ridiculous it's like it was makes you sick those pet name holly feather

01:15:31

I'm just going would you enough already so they have a tremendous relationship and I'll tell you a secret a while back as good as their relationship was they said why not avail ourselves of some marriage counseling

01:15:47

I mean if there's anybody who's not a candidate it's those two you know and I said what and they said well

01:15:55

I mean why not improve we're not you know maybe you can't always see things and so they actually talked to a council friend of theirs and it strengthened their marriage even more and so but anyway there is a great heart behind that great mind

01:16:14

God has given him both pray for him he's got some physical challenges and then he's got the spiritual challenges that I think anybody that is in his position is going to have and so you know yeah well thank you so much for that by the way

01:16:32

Kevin my birthday is in July but we can pretend my birthday is like a couple of weeks from now and your gift to me could could be getting me

01:16:41

Dr. Craig on this show I'd love to interview him I'm a very happy camper you're on and thank you for having me

01:16:48

I I really appreciate it well I appreciate you being on and I think you give a very unique perspective on on the work that Dr.

01:16:55

Craig is doing and I think with that gift that you have to take complicated things and kind of simplify them for the average listener

01:17:03

I think that is in itself an apologetic valuable a valuable thing and so of course everyone wants to hear the arguments and things like that but as you mentioned before that issue of strategy

01:17:14

I think that's an important strategy to have to be able to not only listen to what the scholar's saying but listen to the kinds of questions that are being asked that are touching on those very important important issues and I think that makes you in your own right a very useful apologetic tool for people who are listening and so kudos kudos to you and I appreciate it so guys that's going to wrap up the show for today

01:17:40

I hope you guys enjoyed this I'm going to also be using the audio to put on the Revealed Apologetics podcast if you have not already please subscribe to Revealed Apologetics on YouTube and of course if you

01:17:52

I would not imagine anyone who does apologetics and is not already a regular listener to Reasonable Faith but of course

01:17:59

I would point you over to Reasonable Faith as well their their podcast YouTube channel and their website has many great resources there that I think people will find very very helpful and useful well that's it for today's episode thank you so much if you guys have any

01:18:11

Bible questions or anything apologetics questions you can email me at revealedapologetics at gmail .com that's it for today take care and God bless, buh -bye.