Everything Presup!!! w/Toby Sumpter

Presuppositional Apologetics, the Public Square, and the Lordship of Christ

Welcome back to another episode of Revealed Apologetics. I'm your host Eli Ayala, and today we are back on the topic, well, back on the topic, we're always on the topic of something relating to presuppositional apologetics.

Part of my goal in doing this channel is not just to make people aware of apologetics in general, but more specifically the presuppositional method, as you guys know, is the specific method that I adhere to.

I think it is reflected in Scripture that we should do apologetics in this fashion, and so one of my goals is just to tackle that topic from every different angle, and hopefully it is useful for folks as they seek to engage in the defense of the faith in a way that is honoring to the Lord and consistent with His word.

So I am happy to have as my guest today Toby Sumter, who I will invite on the screen with me in just a moment to introduce who he is, but just real quick by way of reminder, if folks are following the channel and they know that I often have pre-scheduled interviews of various guests, theologians, apologists, people like that, I have coming up, just as a reminder, Jason Lyle, Dr. Jason Lyle on November 18th to talk about the topic of the historical Adam, so mark that on your calendar, November 18th at 9pm Eastern, and I got a couple of other things coming up, hopefully moderating a debate with an atheist and a presuppositional apologist, I'll introduce, we're waiting for some responses, but I'll introduce that specific debate and the date and the time so folks can check that out.

I think it's very important that we do more than simply talk about what we would call meta-apologetics, you know, talking about apologetics methodology, it's important that we actually do it, and so one of the ways we do that is through formal debate and informal discussions with unbelievers, so hopefully you guys can take what we talk about in this channel and couple that with kind of seeing how that's played out when you're actually interacting with an unbeliever, so I think those two things are important to make a connection with.

Toby Sumter and CrossPolitik

Alright, well, without further ado, I'd like to introduce Pastor Toby Sumter, who in just a few seconds here will introduce who he is, and I just want to remind folks who are listening in, we will be taking questions on everything presuppositional apologetics, so if you have a question about anything, transcendental arguments, preconditions of intelligibility, the problem of the one and the many, all those sorts of interesting topics that tend to relate to presuppositional argumentation, feel free to ask your question.

If you were in the previous livestream yesterday and you did not get your question answered, then retype it in the comments here and we'll see if we can address some of those. Alright, well, without further ado, I'd like to introduce on the screen with me Pastor Toby Sumter.

How's it going? Can I just call you Toby? Is that okay?

That's great.

Alright, cool. How's it going, man?

I'm doing great. Thanks for having me, Eli.

Well, it is a pleasure to have you on. I actually saw you for the first time on YouTube. You were explaining presuppositional apologetics, and I've heard some good things about you, and I figured, you know what, let me reach out to him and kind of have him on the show to talk about some presuppositional apologetics, so thank you so much for being here.

I appreciate it. Thanks for having me.

Alright, well, why don't you take a few moments to tell folks who you are, and if you have content, if you have a channel yourself, a podcast or whatever, you can point folks in that direction. Why don't you take a few moments to do that?

Sure, thanks. So I'm married and have four kids. I'm a pastor and associate pastor at Christ Church here in Moscow, Idaho, and I am also one of the hosts of a podcast called CrossPolitik, which is the I guess that's the logo behind me.

And we try to cover politics and culture and current events, applying the word of God to those areas as much as possible. So that's who I am.

Now, CrossPolitik, what is the specific topics that you cover? Is it just politics from a Christian worldview perspective? Do you guys do analysis on current events and things like that?

Yeah, so it's about, I would say, half news, half we do a lot of interviews with people who are involved in the public square, people who are either politicians themselves or people who are commenting on politics and culture.

And yeah, it's both reporting but also analysis. And we are trying to We believe that basically one of the reasons we're in the mess that we're in is because the church abandoned the public square and failed to proclaim the lordship of Jesus over every square inch of the universe.

And so we want to, in our own small way, in whatever way God will bless, basically speak into current events, politics, what's going on, and say Jesus is lord of this and his word has something to say about all of it.

And so we're just everything from immigration policy to taxation policies to whatever Biden said this week or Kamala Harris or whatever, whatever insanity is going on in our world, try to bring the sanity of the gospel, the sanity of Genesis to Revelation, all of God's word to bear in this insane world.

Why Christians Retreat from the Public Square

Yeah. Well, that's super interesting. I think it would be really interesting to hear you kind of unpack for us then. You said something very interesting there. You said that Christians have sort of retreated from the public square.

Why do you think that's the case? Perhaps you can give us an example of how Christians have done that and then maybe connect that with this idea of the lordship of Jesus Christ. When we talk about presuppositional apologetics, we talk about the lordship of Christ over our apologetic.

But of course, as you know, Toby, this is a worldview issue, and so it applies to areas far beyond apologetics. So why don't you share with us a little bit about how Christians have abandoned the public square and how we can do better to apply the lordship of Jesus Christ to all areas of life?

Right. I think the abandoning of the public square probably happened for numerous reasons and happened in numerous ways, but I think it's been driven largely by two particular streams. One is, I think, really bad eschatology, where basically we have largely in American evangelicalism, American Protestantism, I think, for the last, I don't know, roughly century, have basically said that you have a lot of, you know, the end of the world is near.

Jesus is coming back any minute. And of course, we do profess the physical return of Jesus Christ to this earth, but he gave us marching orders to disciple the nations and basically the exact timing of his return is not really any of our business.

But I believe that, you know, sort of the Howard Lindsay's and so on of the last century who say, you know, he's coming back on this date, everybody get ready. The idea of, you know, why would I get involved in a politics?

Why would I get involved in the culture? If it doesn't matter if it's all going to burn? I think that's been part of it. So I think there's sort of an escapist mentality that's crept into the church. And I think related to that, closely related to that is a dualism.

I think a certain kind of Christian Gnosticism of sorts, where we've hit spiritual realities against physical realities and concrete material realities. And of course, Christ is Lord of all. Christ is Lord of our hearts.

Christ is Lord of our bodies. Christ is Lord of the church. He's also the Lord of the state. He's the Lord of our families, our businesses. And so I think, but if you think that being Christian and being spiritual primarily has to do with things you think in your head or things that are happening inside your heart or in your head, and you downplay the importance and significance of, again, material things, business, money, politics, whatever.

Again, even if you don't completely deny it, it's not as important to you. And so I think, again, you abandon the public square because it's messy, because it has to do with people, money, immigration reform, whatever.

And I think, but again, if Jesus is Lord of it all, if we believe in the resurrection of the dead, if we believe in the goodness of creation and the fact that the gospel has not obliterated the dominion mandate, but has actually restored the dominion mandate.

The great commission sending us into the world to disciple the nations is actually an invitation to the nations to get back to work at the job that God gave Adam in the beginning, which was to make the whole world fruitful, to take everything in creation and return it in praise to its maker.

Everything in creation includes economics, includes politics, includes sex and entertainment and everything in between. And so absolutely the Lordship of Jesus Christ over it all. I mean, he is the new Adam.

He is the one who is restoring the whole world through the work of his spirit, through the preaching of the gospel. And so all of that is bound together in one of those pieces that we're trying in particular to highlight, of course, the arts, economics, all of it applies, but we're focused particularly on the public square and public policy and politics.

Eschatology, Dominion, and the Lordship of Christ

Now you said something very interesting that one of the reasons why Christians have retreated from the public square, you made mention of kind of a particular eschatology. Were you referring to kind of the sort of pre-millennial dispensational mindset?

Number one, is that what you're referring to? Number one. And number two, do you think such an eschatology is a consistent application or can someone hold that eschatology and consistently apply a kind of presuppositional lordship mindset?

Or do you think there's kind of a conflict between those perspectives? I hope that question makes sense.

It does. Yeah. I'm primarily thinking of pre-millennial dispensationalism. Yes. Although I do think some of the same pessimism can bleed into some of the other more historic eschatologies as well. So more historic pre-millennialism I think is more biblical and a non-millennialism sort of more biblical.

But sometimes I think, again, can still, some of that pessimism can still seep in and it's like, well, what's the use? We're not going to make very much progress anyways. But I think to your second question, I think there's a fundamental tension if you don't see, I mean, I think people are happily inconsistent.

It's sort of this glorious gift of God that all of us to some extent are inconsistent and God's grace is covering all of our inconsistencies. And so there's going to be piles of believers in heaven who had all kinds of things.

We all had all of our blind spots. But yeah, I mean, if your view is that basically the history of the world is kind of a number of cul-de-sacs where God's sort of trying different plays. That didn't work.

I guess I'll try this. Oh, that didn't work. I guess I'll try this. That didn't work. You know, your lordship theology is kind of impotent. I mean, it's sort of weak, but a more covenantal view of history, seeing Genesis to Revelation as one great epic story with Jesus as the hero.

You know, that's that kind of story. I mean, that's Jesus's Lord. He was Lord from the garden. He was Lord through the flood. He was Lord through the Exodus. He was Lord through the kingdoms. He was Lord, of course, on the cross.

He's Lord in glory now, and he's reigning until he puts all of his enemies beneath his feet, as it says in 1 Corinthians 15. You know, there's kind of different, you know, you can, of course, dispensationalist say Jesus is Lord and praise God that they do and, you know, and praise God.

But, you know, when that's your story, you know, when you say Jesus is Lord, it's kind of a different picture emerges.

Sure. That's interesting. So I know we're going to get to the questions later, but there's someone put a question here that I think is relevant. It's kind of what I was going to ask, because we're talking about presuppositionalism, worldview mentality, applying Christian worldview to the area of politics.

So S Armstrong asked this question, and maybe you could address it here. Do you think people stop being involved in society because the church has stopped asking the congregation to be involved in the politics of the church?

And I don't know what they're asking specifically, but maybe I can kind of rephrase or paraphrase or maybe re ask the question. Do you think one of the ways that the church has retreated from society is that they have stopped speaking into the area of politics?

Yes, absolutely. I think we, I mean, uh, you know, uh, not to be beat up on anybody, but, uh, you know, and Andy Stanley famously preached a series of sermons a few years ago called unhitching the old Testament from the new Testament.

Um, I think we, you know, a lot of that has happened where we, we're not preaching. I mean, we confess that all of the Bible is God's word. All of scripture is God breathed and useful in all these ways to equip the man of God for every good work.

And of course, when Paul wrote those words to Timothy, I mean, the primary thing he had, he was working with was the old Testament. All those scriptures are useful, uh, for equipping us to do everything we need to do.

Um, and so I think, um, absolutely we have, I think the first thing is that we have failed to believe that fully. Uh, that it is the word of God. It is authoritative. It is sufficient for all that we need.

Um, secondly, I think what comes with that is, I think we've become, you know, we, we pick and choose the, um, the verses that we like. And, you know, even, even reform types sometimes are, you know, camping out in Romans and it's like, you know, Romans for the next six years and, you know, yay Romans.

But, you know, there's the rest of the Bible. Um, and, and, you know, for that matter, in terms of politics in particular, we have whole sections of the Bible that are given to law and justice. And, um, you know, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm not at all, um, into the whole social justice, um, movement.

Um, but I'm grateful that God has brought it to our doorstep because it's requiring us to ask questions about justice and, you know, the Bible has a lot to say about justice. And, um, and so, uh, we, yes, the church has failed to be involved, uh, in the public square.

Christians have failed to be involved thoughtfully, intelligently, courageously in the public square, uh, because we have not taken God at his word. Um, and we have not studied his entire word, Genesis to Revelation to find out what it is, um, that is just in the public square.

And so we, you know, I think you have well-meaning Christians that end up in the public square and they don't, they have no idea what a biblical worldview is. They have no idea what biblical justice is.

And, you know, again, I'm thankful for people trying. Um, I'm, you know, I'm thankful, you know, we, you know, last few decades, we at least have a fairly, you know, unanimous on let's not kill babies.

Um, and, you know, so like you can get an evangelical Christian and he says, I'm pro-life. I'm going to try to stop, you know, I want to end killing babies. Um, and I'm grateful for that, but that's a, you know, the sort of like big E on the eye chart.

Yeah. Don't kill people. Um, you know, especially the most innocent and those who cannot even defend themselves. Um, but there's a lot more to justice than that. And, um, and I think, yeah, we failed to disciple our people.

We failed to disciple our nation. Um, the way Jesus commanded us to in the great commission.

The Bible as the Standard for Justice and Public Policy

Very good. Now. Okay. So when we talk about presuppositionalism as an apologetic method, and we talk about Lordship over apologetics, and then we apply this to the Lordship over every area, every area of life, and a politics is, is one of those areas.

And we talk about the importance of applying a Christian worldview to the realm of politics, to the realm of justice and things like that. What is that supposed to look like? Given the fact that facts and issues are always interpreted within a context, as we learned from Van Til, right?

Uh, that facts without a context are meaningless. Um, and you have multiple people claiming to operate under the assumption of a Christian world and life view. But even within that camp, you have people who differ over the interpretation of what justice looks like.

And I'm not talking about black and white issues like abortion. I think that's a black and white issue for Christians. I think we should, we should be able to come down pretty strong on a particular position, but there are some other nuanced areas that you have people who have a Christian worldview and they're trying to speak to these issues, but they differ.

What does it look like to say, I believe in Christian justice, or I believe in Christian this, how do we apply that Lordship in an objective way where it just doesn't become subjectivity within the context of Christians who disagree with each other?

Absolutely. Great question. And I, I mean, I think the answer is the Bible. So the answer is you have to have an, a fixed standard. Um, you know, and so, you know, uh, so the, the, the fundamental question Christians need to be asking all the time and every, and every place in every area of life, but especially, uh, when it comes to issues of justice and morality is by what standard.

But, you know, what's, what standard are we talking about here? We get a bad rap for that. We say it a lot, but I, it's true. I don't, I don't think a lot of people become ashamed of like, Oh, the priest supper's coming.

You know, he's going to say by what standard, but that's a completely valid response. I'm glad you said that, but go ahead. I'm sorry. I interrupted you.

No, but I just, but I think that's what we want to do though, in all the particulars. So, you know, how, how do we, you know, how do we adjudicate, um, you know, I don't know, uh, uh, racial animosity and crime.

How do we adjudicate, um, you know, what is, what is a just taxation? I mean, I mean, our, um, our cry as Christians needs to be to the word and to the standard. It's, it's what, it's what Isaiah said to the word, to the standard.

And if it's not there, um, then we don't have anything to do with it. Um, we're Christians. And so I think, um, I think that's the bottom line. And I would just say the Bible says a lot about money. It says a lot about economic policy.

It says a lot about, um, hatred, prejudice, injustice, and it says a lot about partiality. Um, you know, it, it says, uh, it, it has, I mean, there's again, criminal code in the Bible for us, um, that we should be studying.

I mean, the it's, it's actually, there's, you know, chapters and chapters, books of it. Um, and we of all people should know it. Uh, it's, and I think, so I think that's the issue. And I think, um, yes.

And even, you know, even within that, I mean, you can have people who agree, okay. The Bible is our standard, and then we gotta, we gotta start hashing it out. And we're in kindergarten, basically. I mean, we, our, our forefathers would be ashamed of us.

Um, you know, the founders of this country, um, the Western, um, you know, our reformational fathers, our Puritan fathers, um, you know, they, they knew what the Bible said about justice and politics.

I mean, they were the ones establishing this country, uh, the colonies and so forth. And they intentionally sought to frame governments after the word of God and the principles found therein.

Old Testament Law, General Equity, and Christian Society

Hmm. Now, do you think that, uh, you know, I agree with you, by the way, they would roll over in their grave to, uh, briefly pop their head up and, uh, you know, metaphorically speaking and observe the ignorance.

Um, but do you think that's primarily due to the fear of the old Testament for the modern Christian? They just, cause a lot of these principles you're speaking of, uh, deal with the law and principles of the law that are in the old Testament.

And I know Dr. James White often says, you know, some Christians are operating under a 27 book Canon. Um, and, and, uh, so, so do you think there's a relation there that the average Christian today just doesn't see, or either a relevancy of the old Testament, or they're just afraid to kind of dig deep because it's just so foreign to them.

Yeah, absolutely. And again, I would, I would lay that at the feet of pastors. I mean, that's, that's seminaries and pastors have failed us utterly. Um, but yes, absolutely. I mean, many Christians have, you know, rarely hear sermons from the old Testament, much less actually, you know, delve into Deuteronomy or Leviticus or numbers or whatever.

Um, you know, maybe an occasional Psalm and, you know, that's all you got. Um, but yes, I think it's, uh, um, you know, it's, um, it, yeah, it, that's the problem.

Now I'm going to make a transition here to more specifically the issue of apologetics, but before we go, I just feel obligated to do this because someone is, is listening right now and feel feels kind of convicted of the fact that like, you know, man, I really need to dig into the, into the old Testament.

There's a difference between saying you need to read the old Testament more, uh, and actually knowing where to begin, right? You say, you guys got to pray more of it's like, well, how do I pray? You got to study more.

Well, how do I do that? Uh, can you give kind of a brief, uh, you know, piece of advice as to, uh, you know, where should someone start when they say, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to dig into the old Testament, where should I start?

There's 39 books. It's difficult. How would you navigate that and kind of lay that out for someone?

Sure. I mean, I, I really do. I mean, it's, uh, you know, maybe it just, this is the Sunday school answer, but I do think like Christians should be the people who are reading their Bibles, Genesis to revelation, and then start over.

So like, that should just be like default, like, just do that and do it. Like you eat every day. Um, which means that like when you read the Bible, like that, you don't have to, every meal doesn't have to be a steak dinner.

Like, I, like, I don't even remember what I had for lunch yesterday. You know, it's like, like, you know, like we eat, but that doesn't mean that it's not working. So read the whole Bible, like it's food because the Bible says it's food.

That'd be the number one. Um, number two, I think a really helpful, um, Bible study, um, tool, um, for starting to understand the old Testament better would be, um, I would suggest start in Matthew. Most Bibles actually have footnotes.

Um, every place an old Testament passage is quoted. And I would suggest work your way through the whole new Testament, um, writing down every old Testament passage that's quoted. And every time you see it, go to the old Testament and read that section and then go back and see how the new Testament writer used it.

Maybe make a little note about it. And then I would just work through the entire new Testament. So one of the principles of exegesis is allowing the scripture to interpret scripture. I mean, you know, let God tell us what his own word means.

Um, and you have an, uh, it's like, if only we had an authoritative exit, you know, a commentary on the old Testament. We do it's called the new Testament. And so let the new Testament authors, the apostles themselves do an old Testament Bible study for you by working your way all the way through, uh, the new Testament.

Um, and, and I would say that will give you, if you do that and you are just taking notes and you just, all the times that the old Testament is quoted, um, that is a great introduction to the old Testament.

And then from there, I think you can probably drill down into certain areas, um, where you're, you know, have particular questions or challenges, um, or, or difficulties. But I think, um, uh, one, um, uh, book, I'll just throw out another, um, uh, title though, that might be a helpful introduction to thinking about things like this, um, is called the shadow of Christ and the law of Moses.

Um, by Vern Poitras.

Yes.

Um, and Poitras is a, was a seminary professor for many years. Um, I think at Westminster seminary. Um, and, uh, but that's a great introduction to seeing Christ in the old Testament. Um, particularly he's working through some of the sections of the law that might be more difficult, but he's trying to show how, um, uh, it's still relevant.

Um, and that there are principles of justice and principles of morality that are found there, even though, um, the particulars of the law have expired. Um, the, the, there are, there's what's what theologians call the general equity of the law.

Um, the, the principle, the moral principles behind those laws that are still fully applicable and, and they point us to Jesus, but then also point us to what a Christian society ought to look like.

Excellent. And folks, if you're interested, Vern Poitras has got some really good work in general, not just in the, the reference that, uh, Toby just mentioned there. If you guys are interested, he's got some great work, interesting work in the area of the Trinity.

Um, if you guys, uh, search back, um, in older episodes, I actually had Dr. Poitras on to talk about the Trinity. So you guys can check that out. Maybe after listening to that, you can check out some of his books.

He's got some great stuff. Now let's shift a little bit to a more specified, uh, look at apologetics here. Um, now when you talk about applying the Lordship of Jesus Christ to the area of politics, um, sometimes the voice of the Christian can be drowned out in the sense that it is viewed as just one other opinion amongst all of the arguing opinions.

But of course, as Christians, we believe that the Christian worldview is objectively true. And so, uh, sometimes we're going to have to bring really this issue of the truth of the Christian worldview to bear so as to then be able to speak with authority to these specific issues.

So how do we link now what we're talking about now, you know, having a voice, speaking to these issues, learning, you know, studying the Bible and engaging, you know, the word of God and applying it to our lives.

How do we then, uh, demonstrate the truth of the Christian worldview so that we can speak with authority in those areas and have the backing of, you know, the evidence, uh, the coherency and just the objective truth of the system that we are putting forth.

The Truth of the Christian Worldview and Presuppositional Proof

Yeah.

Um, I, you know, there's several things occur to me. I mean, one is, I mean, I think one of the problems we have had as Christians, and I think this actually goes somewhat to the heart of the whole, um, um, presuppositional method has been.

I think we have, uh, failed as Christians to the extent that we have been ashamed of the Lordship of Jesus. And, and, and so when we see this, particularly when people are defending the faith and they're unwilling, uh, or unable to merely say the reason why this is true is because the Bible says so.

Um, and, and, and they say, but I don't believe the Bible and it doesn't who cares. Um, it, you know, it, it doesn't, you don't, um, it's the word of God, um, my, my, uh, I, I pastor with, um, Douglas Wilson.

And one of the things he's fond of saying is, um, that, you know, if, if somebody, if you have a loaded gun in your pocket, you know, um, your concealed carry, whatever. And you walk up to someone and you say, you know, you, you know, give me all your money.

Um, and, uh, and they say, why should I? And you say, cause I have a loaded gun and they say, but I don't believe in loaded guns, you know, or I don't believe you or whatever. Like it's who cares if they don't believe you, you have the loaded gun, you have, you have the sword of the spirit.

Um, and so, um, just because they don't believe in it, just because they pretend not to care, um, uh, gives is, is no, there's no reason to it. Um, fundamentally we do all of our apologetics. We do all of our living before the face of God.

Um, and, and that means the fundamental thing we need is the blessing of God. That's what we need is the blessing of God. We need to please him. And if we please him, then he is the one who is going to do the work for us.

Um, it, it, and so I would say that in terms of apologetics, of course, but I think that applies to politics as well. And so I think, uh, as we bring the word of God to bear on the public square, Christians need to be right out there in front and just say, well, the reason why, um, you know, for example, our, um, our prison system is absolutely wicked.

It's because the Bible says, uh, that you're not allowed to, um, put people in, um, in, in chains indefinitely. That's called slavery. Um, that's wicked. You're treating people like animals. Um, and, and if someone has stolen something, the Bible says very clearly that they must return what they have stolen with restitution and then it's over.

You don't lock people up and treat them like animals. It's dehumanizing. It's wicked. It's unjust. Um, and why will Exodus 22 says that? And they say, well, I don't believe in Exodus 22. We don't care.

It's the word of God. We don't care.

Not now. Now I want to clarify for people, um, what you're saying sounds dogmatic because it is. And, and people who disagree with you are also dogmatic. So you have multiple dogmatisms at work here. Right now, when, when you say, and you can correct me if I, if I'm misinterpreting, when you say, I don't care.

This is not just the irrational. I don't care what you have to say. You are willing to unpack the reasons why you think that's true.

Right.

And, and that gets back to what I'm originally saying. So why think it's true? So you have the unbelievers saying, okay, I know you believe that to be true. Why should I think your book is true? Which brings us right to the quintessential apologetic question.

So as a presuppositionalist, how would we engage, you know, we're having these conversations about, you know, politics or these issues of the prison systems. How do we now get behind that to the foundational truth of the Christian worldview?

How would you unpack that for someone who is perhaps a skeptic interacting with you on these issues?

Worldview Critique, the Unbeliever's Standard, and the Limits of Proof

Yeah.

Well, there's again, layers here. I mean, I would say I'm, I think you're free to point to, um, just, you know, how, how's it going for you? Like, you know, like how's your prison system working out? You know, is that going well?

I mean, how's the culture going? You got a lot of people, you know, they, they, are they being rehabilitated and, and, you know, going back into society? How, you know, how's that going? So I think you can, you can walk out just results.

That would be one thing. Um, I think also, of course we would go back to, so by what standard, um, why do we, why do you think this is just, why do you think it is just to incarcerate someone for stealing a car, uh, for, for 20 years?

Why is that just, where'd you get that? You know, lady justice, you know, in all the old paintings and statues is a woman blindfolded or blind. I'm holding a sword and a set of scales and all the old pictures, all the old statues, she's blindfolded or she's blind and she's got a sword and a set of scales.

Um, justice, um, equity as it's understood historically, not as it's been understood more recently, um, is, um, biblically defined as eye for eye, tooth for tooth. Um, that, that what you are doing in justice, when, when some crime has been committed, as you are restoring, um, a kind of equilibrium to society and culture, um, that's the biblical standard.

Um, where'd you, where'd you get your standard from? Um, and then, you know, obviously we can keep going further up and further in, um, you know, uh, there's, there's, um, also deeper realities going on that presuppositionalism gets at, which is, um, you know, the fact of the matter is, is that people actually, um, are naturally at war with God and at war with his system.

Um, they're at war with his morality. Um, and they are, um, at, at some fundamental level, uh, suppressing the truth willfully, um, uh, knowing that there is a God that he, his invisible attributes can be known and seen in creation around them.

They hate that. Um, and they are resolute, uh, to defy it. Um, and that is infecting, um, how they think about the world, how they act in the world. Um, and so, you know, you, you, uh, you, you can't, and here's the thing is fundamentally, um, you, um, there's no place you can go in this universe where you are actually outside of God, outside of God's reality.

And, and the attempt, and so, um, you, and you can't, so you can't stand somewhere and say, let me do some testing and see if I, if I can, um, you know, prove God, well, um, God's too big to prove God's too real to prove, um, fundamentally, ultimately.

Now we have real evidence and real, um, and, and again, um, helpful argumentation. Um, ultimately, um, it comes down to, are you going to believe the word of God or the word of man?

Right.

Okay.

So, um, so, okay. So now that you, you, you kind of gave some, uh, tantalizing phraseology, people might want to tease that apart. You said that God is too big to prove. Um, and I kinda, I kinda know what you mean in a generic sense, uh, but those who, who tend to be more philosophically minded and kind of want to, well, wait a minute.

Um, if you're going to tell me that we need to live our lives according to this book that you call the Bible, uh, and you can't prove that your Bible is true, then why should I believe it? Um, so, um, are, are you of the position that you, that the Christian world you can be proved?

And if so, how would you unpack that for someone who's asking for the proof?

Yeah, I would say, um, yes, it, it can be proven, um, what the right adjective is, but, um, it can be proven, um, humanly. I think it can be proven in a, um, to, uh, sufficiently, but, but it cannot be proven.

Um, uh, absolutely. It can't be proven. Um, and there's, and so there's, um, and I would say fundamentally that's because we're finite human beings. Um, and so we're, but I would say, absolutely. There are all kinds of evidences.

I mean, the scripture itself gives evidences. This, you know, John says that he has written these things, uh, so that you might, um, no. So you might believe and have life in his name. Um, you have, um, uh, he's referenced Paul references, witnesses of the resurrection miracles, um, the, the testimony of scripture itself, creation.