Why We're Not Antinomian | Theocast

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Emphasizing grace, grace boys, antinomianism. The law, preaching, harsh.

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These are all words that seem to be searched and circulating on the internet and YouTube. And we wanted to speak into, first of all, what is antinomianism?

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Is preaching Christ from all of scripture, Christ -centered preaching, antinomianism in general? And why is it that Reformed theology, theocast, is not antinomian?

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We'll explain that by using the uses of the law and church discipline. Stay tuned.

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If you're new to theocast, you may not have heard of this word. It's called pietism. You ever felt like the

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Christian life is a heavy burden versus rest and joy? That you wake up worrying about how well you're gonna perform, instead of thinking about what

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Christ has done for you? It's dread versus joy, really. That's pietism. Pietism causes

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Christians to look in on themselves and find their hope, not in what Christ has done, but what they're doing.

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And we have a little book for you. It's free. We want you to download it. And we're gonna explain the difference between pietism and what we call confessionalism.

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Reformed theology, really. How it is that we walk by faith, seeing the joy of Christ, and when

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Jesus says, come to me and I will give you rest, what does that look like? You can download it on our website.

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Just go to theocast .org. Welcome to theocast, or the

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Theocast Nation. Theocast Nation, let's rock. No, we're totally kidding. That sounds too much like Christian nationalism.

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John, get back to the intro. Encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ. Conversations about the

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Christian life from a reformed, pastoral, and confessional perspective. Justin, our aim today is to take the clutter off the gospel and, in our opinion, reclaim the purpose of the kingdom.

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What we're doing. What is it we are doing? The two pastors who desperately are in need of God's grace who consider themselves to be sinners, saved by Jesus, is

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Justin Perdue, who is the pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina, and I'm John Moffat, the pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee.

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And Justin, you know how we see ourselves. Two sheep underneath the shepherd trying to love other sheep, man.

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I think pastors forget their sheep, you know? And I think it's good for us to remind ourselves we're smelly, stinky sheep who needs a shepherd.

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We are. We're jogging along, trotting along with the rest of the flock, and all we're doing is trying to remind us all to keep our eyes on the

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Savior. But we are with the people, and we are weak. We are prone to wonder, and may the

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Lord have mercy on us all. May so. All right, if you're new to Theocast, man, we have a growing community, and this is true.

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There are times I read the comments and the posts in there, and it brings me to tears, just how kind and loving and gracious you guys are.

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Real conversations happening. I think we're almost over 1 ,200 people now in the app. It's a safe place.

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It's really only designed for questions, requests, and theology. So no fighting, no memes, none of that stuff.

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And you don't have to worry about seeing offensive things. That's right. You don't have to worry about seeing. Yeah, no ads.

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And courses, there's courses on there. Justin, speaking of, man, we haven't promoted this in a while, but he just put a series on there on law and gospel.

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So if you guys want a law and gospel distinction. Still going, yeah. With notes, it's still ongoing.

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We'll have the third installment coming up in the next few days, probably. Yep, I just did something on Saint, sinner, and the supernatural.

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So that's available on there. Anyways, there's a lot of good stuff on there. I did something on prayer. Justin, today is an important subject.

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We're gonna go ahead and jump into it. You and I have already asked the Lord to give us mercy and wisdom on this subject, and that is really our intention, is to be wise in how to address this.

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So I'm gonna throw it over to you, my friend, and talk to us about this title that seems a little punchy. Yeah, why we're not antinomian.

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Let's not bury the lead, right? So I don't know that we need to mention the occasion for this.

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I don't think that's necessarily helpful, but it's a pretty common thing. Yes, it feels like the antinomian debate is back on the rise, and it feels like it's being thrown all over X and all our

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YouTubes and stuff. So it seems like it goes in cycles, so just kind of jumping back in that cycle.

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And we are often charged with being antinomian or radical grace guys or whatever. And I'll say this now.

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John and I were talking before we recorded this episode. I am kind of doing a deep dive on the marrow controversy in the

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Church of Scotland in the 18th century, and even some of the ministers who were serving in the church in the aftermath of the marrow controversy.

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And the more I read of that, the more I am convinced that it is an apt comparison to our day.

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And John and I do take comfort in the fact that the marrow men, Thomas Boston, Ralph Ebenezer Erskine, John Cahoon, people like this, were often charged with being antinomian.

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And they were meaning to offer Christ freely to sinners and to hold out the whole Christ for the entirety of salvation, which is exactly what we mean to do.

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The reason we're having this conversation today is not so much to defend ourselves, but it's to defend the clarity of the gospel and the sufficiency of Christ as a

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Savior. And so this is not a personal conversation. This is a doctrinal conversation, and we hope a pastoral one.

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I will ask, if you're tuning into this, regardless of whether you're a regular Theocast listener or maybe you have concerns about us and you're tuning in to hear what we have to say, either way, listen to the entire thing.

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Don't turn it off 10 minutes in. Give us half an hour, 35 minutes of your time, and we're gonna try to make a reasonable, not argument per se, but just try to lay some things before you that we hope will be helpful.

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So, John, I don't know that anything else needs to be said before we get off and running on this.

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I think to launch the conversation, where we wanna begin, I think what concerns people most is the tone and the emphasis of what you and I say and the tone and the emphasis even of our preaching.

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It's different. It sounds different than what a lot of folks have been accustomed to in the Calvinistic world that is in evangelicalism, right?

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So I'm talking about the Shepherds Conference, the Gospel Coalition world, the

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Calvinistic evangelical space. We sound different than that. And so I think it concerns people.

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Some people that are on Ligonier, yeah. Sure, some, sure. And so people hear us and they say,

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I don't know. And they have some legitimate questions. And so I think let's start there on our tone and our emphasis and why it is the way that it is.

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And first and foremost, it's what we already alluded to. We mean to hold

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Christ out freely to sinners, meaning like Isaiah 55, one, Matthew 11, 28.

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Come everyone who thirsts, come to the waters, right? Come buy and eat, buy wine and milk without money and without price, or come to me all who are weary and heavy laden and I'll give you rest.

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That's the offer of the gospel. That's that free part. And it doesn't require anything of the sinner, right?

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That's the big thing that I think trips people up sometimes where we are never going to condition the offer of the gospel on anything inside of you, the person who is hearing the good news.

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It is entirely, here is Jesus, here is who he is, here is what he did, here is how he loves his own, cast yourself upon him.

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That's the gospel offer, right? So that's the first part. The second part, and then I want you to talk for a while because I'm monologuing here.

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The second part is that we offer a whole Christ, meaning not just for justification, but also union with Jesus for sanctification and also for eternal life.

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And so he is a complete and all sufficient savior and everyone who is united to him by faith will be sanctified and will be finally saved.

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And we are unashamed to herald that from the rooftops. And I might make a punchy observation about the sanctification thing in a moment, maybe, but I want you to go and say some more pastoral things before I might do that.

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Justin, some of this really does come down to our understanding of men and the status of men.

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There is, I referenced this lecture, it should be available by now, Saint Center and the Supernatural. We don't, we acknowledge the sinner side, but we understand,

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I think, the weight of it in scripture and how the saint side of it really is the center of the

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Christian life. And let me give a couple of passages that have really helped me recently just really think through why

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I'm not ashamed of the message that we preach, the tone. Paul, so I'm preaching through first Peter right now.

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Peter says that Christ is our cornerstone and he quotes Isaiah and David's psalm in there.

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And he says, you will not be put to shame if you fully rest in Christ as the foundation of your faith, right?

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He says, you will not be put to shame. In the, Isaiah says, it will not be a decision of haste.

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You didn't count the cost, right? Right, right, exactly. In that particular area of second

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Peter, Peter is really forcing you to, even in the imagery, that your entire Christian faith and obedience, because he's about to go into obedience.

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Like, you need to obey and here's all the areas you're gonna obey in. He says, the foundation of your faith and your obedience is

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Christ. Like, you have to stand fully on him. So, you compare this to Romans chapter seven, which it seems like there's a rise, there's some new books on trying to turn this back into.

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Oh, bro, it's so in vogue right now. First use of the law, I know. Well, to see Paul writing as an unregenerate man.

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Yeah, exactly. But he's using present tense. We know from context, we've got episodes on this, we'll link to it on Romans seven.

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But this statement is one that's not unusual because he makes it multiple times in multiple letters.

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But Romans 7, 18, for I know that I am nothing, there's nothing good that dwells in me, that is in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right.

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Now, Justin, you and I have both said, there are times that even without Christ, people have desires to do what is right.

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But even as Christians, even more so, our spirit within us yearns to do what is right and our flesh agrees.

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Our flesh tells us we want to do that. Particularly when Paul will say in the context of this that he delights in God's law and his inner man.

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It's pretty plain that he's writing as a regenerate person. As a regenerate person. Right, who is delighting in God's law and wanting to do good in that regard.

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That's right. So in light of that context, he says, in my flesh, I have the desire to do what is right, but I not the ability to carry it out.

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Now, that's not an obscure passage because how many more times, Galatians chapter three is another good example.

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You begin by the spirit, you're gonna perfect yourself by the law, by the flesh. You know, you're looking at Hebrews 12.

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I could give a lot of examples. What I want to point out here is that our preaching takes in an acknowledgement that we believe that the flesh is completely incapable of producing fruit and obedience to the

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Lord that is acceptable before God. That's what he says, I do not have the capacity. Now, he's, Paul is not saying,

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I don't have the capacities to obey as a human being. He is going to obey, but it's how he obeys, he's saying it's not in the flesh, it's in the spirit.

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Well, and he's also saying that because of the fact that he drags the corpse of that old man around with him, he cannot run as he wants to run.

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No, no. That's what he's saying. No, and this is why, you know, I love Galatians 5 .16 because he does the opposite here.

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So in Romans seven, he says, the flesh is not capable, but he doesn't leave us hanging.

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I mean, it goes on in Romans to explain that to us. In Galatians 5 .16, he says, but I say, walk by the spirit and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

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Now think about what the spirit is. The spirit, so sometimes we just, we kind of disconnect words and go to like immediate actions.

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He is talking about, this is capital S, Justin. This is, he's talking about the tri -part of the

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Holy Spirit, the God who indwells within us. So you can't, you cannot hear walk by the spirit and not think of the benefits of our union in Christ through the gospel, right?

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How do you disconnect those two? Well, that and in Romans, I'm convinced that Paul, the way he uses that phrase there, walk by the spirit and not the flesh is to trust in the righteousness of Christ and receive it and not try to establish your own righteousness.

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To try to establish your own righteousness is to walk in the flesh. And to walk by the spirit is to trust

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Christ and receive his righteousness, which is exactly what you're saying. It's union with Jesus, yeah. Well, even in first Peter, when he's talking about, he tells them to be holy as I am holy, in that context, he is running through the benefits of their union in Christ.

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And he's describing who they are and what they are now. It's like this, you are to be the very thing that I've already described you to be.

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So it's always, right, go ahead. I'm sorry, man, we're excited about this, it's okay. So the thing is, is we're trying the tone.

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So we started this conversation by saying what concerns people sometimes is our tone and our emphasis. Well, the emphasis is always

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Christ and union with Jesus, but in the tone is one generally. Now, is there a place for firm warning?

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Absolutely. But even in warning the saints, you don't call their salvation into question.

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First Corinthians chapter six, right, we're familiar with chapter five, where Paul rebukes the whole church for not removing a man who is living a debaucherous life of sexual immorality.

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And then Paul rebukes the church in Corinth because they're suing each other in court.

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I mean, it's not going well. But then what does he say? He says, do you not know, like, have

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I not told you that people who do all of these things, and he lists a number of sins, will not inherit the kingdom of God?

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But then what does he say? Such were some of you, but you were washed, you were justified, you were sanctified, you've been united to Jesus, that's what he says.

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So again, notice he doesn't call their salvation into question, not one moment does he do that. He warns them, why would you do something for which the wrath of God is coming?

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But then he grounds them in what? Their identity and their union with Christ. And so the reason

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I bring that up is that's as severe a language is aimed at Christians in the New Testament that I can think of. Having said that, how did the apostles speak?

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Right, how did they exhort? They always point the Christians to their union with Christ and say, live like who you are now.

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Put off the old man, put on the new man, live like who you are. That's exactly what you're saying. And that's why our emphasis and our tone sounds a little bit different, because that's the way that we're meaning even to exhort and admonish and encourage the saints.

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And even to correct and warn, we're not doing that in a way that calls salvation into question.

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We're doing that completely after the pattern of the apostles, grounding people in their union with Christ and their identity in him.

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Yeah. Well, and again, we believe in...

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So, sorry, there's so many thoughts that I have here. Paul multiple times uses this concept of...

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I'm actually just gonna pull it up here because this will be easier. Pull it up, John. Pull it up. Pull it up, come on now.

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So Paul says, when he's talking about the weakness of his flesh, right, where he's struggling with the thorn in the flesh, he's asked for help three times, and God says no.

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And he ends up having this fascinating dialogue with Jesus, because Jesus comes in and says this conversation with him after his prayer request, that in, and remember,

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Paul is, I think, referencing the frailty of his flesh. He is thinking, my work is gonna be hindered now to do the work that I've been called to do because my flesh is getting weaker.

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And Jesus responds with, my grace is sufficient for you, for when you are weak, at your weakest points, you are then strong, because you have to rely in a force and a power and a person that's stronger than yourself.

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And there's this constant war that's between the believer and his flesh. And Justin, this is where people get really upset with us and call us antinomian, because we are not flesh -bound preachers.

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We're spirit -bound preachers, right? We're teaching people to let go of the flesh and run to the rest.

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Now, sometimes when people hear us say rest, they think we're saying to relax, kick it up and coast.

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That's right. Kick your feet up, that's not what we're saying. No, may I quote Jesus? He says, come to me all who are heavy laden by the law of requirements of the flesh.

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And I will give you rest from those laws because I'm going to give you my righteousness for my yoke is easy, my burden is light.

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And then he says, abide in me. That's right. Which is what we're trying to encourage people to do. That's right, so we will fight and wrestle and we will exert energy, but it's always by means of resting in Christ and the sufficiency of Christ.

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So we must first and always rest in him so that the burden we carry is not heavier than it needs to be, which is what we feel preaching does, is that we are trying to encourage people with the wonderful call of coming to Christ and resting upon him to do the work that is set before them.

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This is Ephesians two, right? But we don't want to offer an additional burden upon them because there is fear, true love cast out all fear, all doubt, all worry that I'm doing enough.

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You'll never going to be doing enough. And the difference between the tone, Justin, is that with, and I'm going to say this,

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I don't know if this might be the first time I've ever said this, but I don't know if some of these preachers realize they are trying to preach to convince the flesh, but they call it spirit -based preaching.

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Because I'm just telling you right now, if the center of your, like if he says walk by the spirit, you cannot disconnect the person and work and role of the spirit from the walking.

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You are literally in line with, following with the realities and the truth of the person who is sanctifying you, saving you through Christ.

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I mean, Jesus literally is like, I'm leaving, he's coming, this is your benefit, you want all of this.

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But yet when we hear the preaching and teaching, it is an exacting, it's almost like you and the spirit are in this role of producing the fruit.

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And what's lacking is your side of getting it up and going. And so we're going to preach to the flesh side of doing that.

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And I'm not, this is not a let go and let God type of theology at all. So I know that's here, people are going to quote this, they're going to put it out on YouTube.

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And so he's, John said, let go and let God. No, but it's every day saying that I will not put confidence in the flesh.

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I don't know how many times Paul has to say that. Well, then you have to have confidence somewhere because you're about to pull off an act that no one can do, which is to love neighbor and love

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God. How are you going to do that? Well, I'm going to wake up every day believing in the truth and the freedom and the sufficiency of Christ in his word.

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And that's the weapons of our warfare versus I'm going to trust in the manipulation of my flesh.

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We don't word it that way, we call them spiritual disciplines. But if you're disciplining your flesh, the only thing,

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I'm sorry, I know now I'm on the monologue, but Justin, this is my last statement, I'll throw it to you. You and I discipline our flesh every single day.

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We have to tell it no, get out of the way and obey. And we establish patterns and habits to try to help us in that.

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Yeah, for sure. We have to turn our eyes away and turn our hearts away and turn our flesh away from things.

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But we do that because we're walking by the spirit, not so that we can walk in the spirit. And there's a difference.

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Controlling, if you want to control the flesh, you walk by the spirit. Unfortunately, the kind of antinomian accusations that are coming our way are saying,

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John, that doesn't work. I've literally had people tell me, preaching grace does not produce holiness. And then

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I said, okay, well then you're either not preaching grace correctly or you don't understand holiness. There's a confusion somewhere.

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I agree. I mean, I'll just go ahead and riff on that real quick and then we'll pivot to maybe the second half of the episode. The idea that the preaching of Jesus and the preaching of grace does not produce holiness is biblically insane.

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It is. I'll just go, this is kind of my punchy comment. Like, I'll put it two different ways.

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I'll put it negatively and then positively. If we think, I'm not gonna say you,

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I'm gonna say if we think that Jesus in union with Jesus, and that being the emphasis, is gonna produce sin, effectively what we're saying is this, that even though Christ took all of our shame, all of our guilt, all of our corruption, all of our sin upon himself and died for it, right, and that he was sent by the

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Father to condemn sin in the flesh, even though that's true, and even though Jesus is the fountainhead of holiness, somehow the preaching of Christ and the emphasis on grace, the grace of Christ, is going to then produce debauchery?

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Are we serious? Like, listen to what we're saying. Listen to what we're implying. That, I can't stand for that,

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John. Biblically, I cannot. I'll die on that hill. Then, let me put it positively.

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The believer's sanctification rests on the same foundation and comes from the same source as the believer's justification, and that is union with Christ.

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Jesus is the fountainhead of holiness, and once that fountain begins to flow, John, it will not dry up.

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It won't, and so it's like this, we're gonna get to the law in just a second. The law in sanctification can only guide us.

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It cannot transform our lives. Only Jesus Christ and our union with him is the power unto sanctification, and we've got to be plain on that.

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If we're not, we're not preaching the gospel. We're preaching transformation of life, or we're preaching a gospel of sincere obedience, not the gospel of Jesus Christ, the savior of sinners, right?

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All right, so if you have other comments on that kind of tone and emphasis piece, please, let's do that now, and then we'll pivot to maybe a couple of reasons why we are not antinomian specifically, like, aimed at answering that question.

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I do. I think that, in my opinion, we're trying to reclaim the supernatural power, power by the spirit side of Christianity.

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I am not saying the other side isn't either. It's just there's a way that the scripture seems to be producing that where the confidence is at, so the confidence is not in beating

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Christians by harsh preaching into submission with their flesh, but enticing them with the glory of Christ.

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So think about it this way. Here's a couple of passages I just want to read. This is 1

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Peter, no, actually, I'm going to go back. I had quoted this, but I want to read it, because I think it's important. 2 Corinthians 12, verse nine, he says, but he says to me, my grace is sufficient for you.

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Listen to this one. For my power is made perfect in weakness. So you have to understand, when your flesh is weak, not under control, not disciplined, but when your flesh is, you can acknowledge that you have zero capacity to follow

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Christ as you should. It's at that moment the power of Christ becomes more significant, right?

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This is why Paul, we kind of misinterpret this all the time, but this is why Paul says in Philippians chapter four, verse 13,

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I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me. Not the discipline of my flesh, through the power of Christ.

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One last one, this is 2 Peter 1, 3. His divine power has granted to, and we just skipped these words,

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Justin. His divine, God -forced, God -like power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness through the means of this right here, through knowledge of Christ and his glory.

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So we believe that when we've herald Christ to people, we preach to them. Man, we were slapping the power of God down on people's flesh saying, trust

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Christ and your flesh will get in line. But we are not going to manipulate your flesh so that you can have

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Christ's power. It's just not the same. Sorry. I know it's confusing, because it's a conversation that you and I are having long -term for the last few years, but it's one of those things that I just,

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I don't trust my flesh, man. It terrifies me. And every time you convince me to try and use it, I'm like, that's dangerous.

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That's really dangerous. Hey guys, real quick. Some of you are listening to this, and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions.

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So where do you go? How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources? We have started something called the

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Theocast Community, and we're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like -minded believers, all of our resources there, past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's there, and you can share it and ask questions.

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You can go check it out. The link is in the description below. So we've begun this conversation, why we're not antinomian, by emphasizing, it's not that we're against the law.

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It's that we are unashamedly preaching Jesus Christ, who is the end of the law for righteousness for everyone who believes, period.

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That is the emphasis of our ministry as we understand it. But then secondarily, let's speak in a couple of more ways,

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John, as to why we are not antinomian. So first, in the spirit of 1 Timothy 1 .8,

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Paul says, we believe that the law is good. We maintain that the law is good. John and I agree, the law is good.

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And like Paul says in 1 Timothy 1 .8, provided that we use the law lawfully. So why are we not antinomian?

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We uphold the law and we use the law lawfully. What do I mean? Well, we use the law in its historical three uses.

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John and I affirm all of them, and we preach this way, and we try to speak this way and live this way in our local churches.

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Briefly, the first use of the law is to show us the depth of our sin and drive us to Christ who kept the law for us.

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So we preach that use of the law to any non -believer who's present in our services, amen. For all have sinned.

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We're crushed, we're crushed by the standard. You know, that covenant of works that Adam failed to keep, but then think

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Jesus in Matthew five, you've heard it said, don't murder, but then I'm gonna apply the law at a spiritual level to your heart.

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If you've been angry, you've broken the law. You've heard it said, don't commit adultery, but I'm gonna apply that to your heart at a spiritual level.

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If you've lusted, you've broken the law. So you must be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect.

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We preach that first use, certainly to non -believers in our midst, and then implore them to trust

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Christ and cast themselves upon him. But then we also preach that first use to the saints, John, week over week to remind us all, we have not done this.

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We are not doing this. We need Jesus just as much today as the first day we trusted him. Let's not get it twisted, right?

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So we do that. But then second use of the law, to restrain human corruption. We uphold how

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God has forbidden evil and he encourages good. And how if you do these things that God says, don't do them, it's gonna wreck your life.

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And if you pursue these things that God says, hey, this is good, it generally speaking is gonna be good for your life even now.

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That's second use of the law. We talk like this. Third use of the law, this is the big one. To be an antinomian historically defined, you would need to deny the third use of the law.

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And we love it. The third use of the law is in Christ Jesus, the law is the perfect guide for our living.

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Now, here's the thing. We do not understand that the law in its third use is condemnatory or threatening to the believer as it pertains to his or her standing.

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And so that's where I think the rub comes sometimes. But the third use, guiding our lives in Christ, this is where we,

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John, not cracking a whip necessarily from behind, but pulling from the front, we say, guys, saints, beloved of God, look at the law.

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It's so good, is it not? We know this is good. Let's live this way. Let's conform our lives to this by the power of the

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Spirit. Let's flee from sin and pursue righteousness. And let's do that as we look to Christ, the author and the perfecter of our faith.

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That's how we talk. And so that's the first thing. I'll let you comment on that, John. But we are not antinomian because we uphold the law and we use it lawfully.

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Yeah, it's why we obey is why we get in trouble. It's the intent and tone. So like, for instance,

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Jesus says, seek first the kingdom of God. He spends the last 40 days of his resurrection before he goes to be with the

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Father, teaching on the kingdom of God. So that means he's talking about obedience after gospel justification.

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So that's awesome. Jesus is preparing his people to be like, right, you're gonna do kingdom work, which is all obedience, by the way.

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So I'm all for obedience, 100%. Like when you are justified and you are brought into sonship with Christ, you are, listen to your descriptions.

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You're a royal priesthood. You're a part of it, which means you carry Christ, right? You're an ambassador, right?

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You know? So there's this language that you can't do either of those roles. You can't even be a body member if you're not obeying.

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So we're all about the obedience. And not only that, we think that church discipline is God's love upon his congregation, upon his people, right?

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So we want church discipline. Yeah, that's the second prong. So why are we not antinomian in this second half?

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One, we uphold the law and use it lawfully. Two, what John just said, we practice church discipline. So I don't know what it means to be antinomian and practice church discipline.

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I don't see how those things are, like those possibly go together. To me, they're mutually exclusive.

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So in our congregation - Like I know for a fact, you've had to practice it. I know that I have even recently.

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It is not something that we say in theory. You can call our churches and find out.

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I mean, this is legitimate. So we have sourced, we have a document that our elders have written, which is church discipline protocol for the elders and congregation of Covenant Baptist Church.

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And we've sourced old Baptist documents as well as the PCA Book of Church Order. And so we practice the three historical tiers of censure, of admonishment, suspension from the table, and excommunication.

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We have a formal way that we commence process of church discipline, which we do on a regular basis.

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When there are allegations of sin that are significant in nature, the elders get involved by sending a letter to the individual and saying, we're asking that you come meet with us.

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And this is the commencement of process. This need not end in any kind of censure necessarily, but we're involved in it.

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And so then we get involved. And sometimes those end in admonishment, which is a formal letter from our elders.

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Sometimes people are suspended from the table as we're hoping to see repentance in their lives. Sometimes if people remain obstinate, hard -hearted, stubborn, and just burn the church down, metaphorically speaking, or just leave and dip out, sometimes that does end in excommunication, being barred from the fellowship.

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Why do we do that? We do that not to be punitive and mean. We do that, 1

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Corinthians 5, so that individuals might be kept and restored by God. And so even there,

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I wanna emphasize this. We practice church discipline, and we understand that church discipline is a tool of God's love to keep his people.

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And we are meaning, I'm gonna use this word intentionally, we are meaning to be faithful to the scriptures as we see them, and in practicing discipline in our congregations,

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John. I know you do it. I know we do it. I know that the churches of the Grace Reform Network that we're a part of, we emphasize this.

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And so, again, we are the furthest thing from lawless people trying to promote debauchery.

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We desire very much that our people would grow in godliness and holiness, that they would be sanctified.

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And we are convinced that the preaching of Christ and the emphasis of grace is the power for that. And when people go astray, which they will, we have a mechanism for it, and it's called church discipline.

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I mean, I'm sorry, I just gotta read this. Now that you're just saying that, even listen to Paul's tone. This is

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Galatians six. Brothers, if anyone, six one, if anyone is caught in transgressions, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness.

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Yeah, keep and watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted, lest you too fall. All right, listen, let's believe a pastor thinks his entire half of congregation, section of the congregation, a few congregants is caught in transgression.

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That means his sermon should be in a spirit of gentleness. How else do you interpret that? Hello, why?

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Lest you too are tempted. Tempted by what? Self -righteous judgmentalism.

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Justin, what's interesting to me is the people who I think produce the least amount of holiness are the people who promote this self -based righteousness, this like,

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I've controlled my flesh and I'm a disciplined person. And all they do is seek out to blast everyone who doesn't do it their way.

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And because they've got a couple parts of the fruit down that are coming out well, they find that they've now become the judge and they're just gonna judge everyone.

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And I find that the people who are the most effective in my church and in the Christian community are the humble sinners who are desperately, they are not in sin.

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They're not cheating on their wives. They're not cheating on their husbands. But they are meek and humble and quiet because they are trying to rest in the sufficiency and walk by the flesh or walk by the spirit to not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

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And they understand their frailty, their weakness. And so they're less quick to judge and be harsh and exacting.

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Well, it kind of sounds like the spirit of gentleness that Galatians is talking about here. Pastors should be gentle men.

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I'm just saying. But yeah, there's something about manliness of like, we got to stand up and bash people because they don't know what sin is.

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It's like, you can still tell people they're in sin and be gentle about it. I'm just saying. No, you can.

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I mean, patience and gentleness bears so much fruit over the long term. And I already said, look, there's a speed, like there's a gear in our gearbox for earnest warning.

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Sure. Like in that 1 Corinthians 6 vein. But again, remember what we said about that. In warning and rebuking and correcting people, you're not calling their standing into question, which is what is constantly done by those who,

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I'm using this phrase and I'll probably get shot at for it. But those who preach a gospel of sincere obedience, this is not what they do.

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They end up scaring everyone and calling standing into question six ways from Sunday in order to motivate people to obey.

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And that from our vantage point, from our vantage point is not the Protestant biblical way to handle this.

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And you need to have various tools in your tool belt. And we are also convinced that the preaching of Christ is the power, that church discipline is the mechanism that God has given us for people who are straying, and we should use it regularly.

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And yes, gentleness and patience over the long haul will bear much fruit. And last comment from me, and then

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I'll let you shut it down, John. Sure. I've said this before. I think it's fitting to say this again. My assumptions about my people, because sometimes

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I hear guys preach. You kind of said this a minute ago. I hear guys preach and I'm thinking, who do you think your audience is, bro?

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Like, it sounds to me like you think your entire congregation is just a bunch of fakers.

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They're Christians in name only. Or all of the people who have paid literally probably thousands of dollars of their own money to come to this conference or something.

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That everybody who's sitting here listening to your message is a faker. Who deep down just want to be lazy and deep down don't really give a rip about God or a rip about holiness.

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And I just am confused by that posture. Because if you're practicing church membership in a reasonable way, and you're practicing church discipline in a reasonable way in your church,

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I trust you would assume what I'm about to say. Because I assume that my people who gather on the

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Lord's Day in Asheville, North Carolina at Covenant Baptist Church are sincere.

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They love the Lord. They want to obey Him. They want to honor Him with their lives. And they're grieved by the thought of offending

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Him. And they lament their weakness. And they lament their capacity to sin. They lament the fact that they desire sin sometimes in their flesh.

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And this whole thing produces in them a posture of, brother, please, give me the

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Savior. Give me Christ today. Tell me of the good news of Jesus Christ.

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Because He is what I need. I know He's who I need. He's my only hope. I'm casting myself on Him as I battle the corruption of my flesh and I pursue conformity under the law of God.

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And that informs very much the way that I mean to preach the scriptures. And I know it does for you too.

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Well, Justin, this has been hopefully encouraging to you. It's been extremely encouraging to me.

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Probably the number one accusation that you and I get in Theocast is that we're antinomian. We're the grace boys or radical grace, all those titles.

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And listen, we're not here to defend ourselves. We just want to proclaim the truth. This is what we believe. You can do with it what you may.

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I will say that sometimes people, I don't think, give us the benefit of the doubt that take a clip or concept or something else.

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Which is fine. Take us out of context, which is gonna happen. Yeah, but if you've been helped by this and join the community, let us know or share this episode.

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Our encouraging to you is this. Nobody has ever been an antinomian and found joy.

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It just never happened. You can't live outside of God's design and find joy.

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So God's design is to be within his love, within his holiness, within his grace and mercy. And that's where we find rest and joy and satisfaction.

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What does he describe himself? He describes himself as the water that brings everlasting satisfaction to our thirst, right?

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And that would - Never thirst again. To come to Jesus would mean we're finding our satisfaction in him and not in sin.

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So we believe that with our whole heart that you can be satisfied in Christ, that he can bring the joy that you're gonna, you don't have to go after the passions of your flesh anymore.

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And if you're listening to this and you're exhausted by using your flesh to control your flesh, as Colossians says, it has an appearance of wisdom, but if it's no value, then keep listening to the power of the gospel.

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Let it rinse over your mind, renew your mind daily, looking under Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. And the critics around you will criticize you for this, but they criticize

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Paul. So take comfort in that.

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Hey, thanks for listening. Justin and I are honored to be a part of this community that's growing, it's wonderful.

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We get the opportunities here just in a second to hop on with some other brothers. We've got some interviews and collaborations coming up, brothers that we love that get this message as well.

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So stay tuned for that for the next couple of weeks. And love you guys, talk soon, bye. Hey everyone, before you go,

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Justin and I first wanted to say thank you. And if this has been encouraging to you in any way, please feel free to share it, but we also need your support.

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And it's when you give that it really helps us financially reach more people. So the next time you consider giving to a ministry, we hope that you would pray about Theocast and partner with us as we share the gospel around the world.