Two Kingdoms (with David VanDrunen) | Theocast

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Hi, this is John, and today on Theocast, Justin and I are interviewing David Van Druden on his book

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Two Kingdoms. It's a lively conversation and a helpful one. If you want to know about what is the

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Christian's role in the culture and what is the church's role in the culture, this conversation is extremely helpful from a redemptive,

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Reformed understanding of Scripture. And in the SR Podcast, we even dip into common objections, specifically dealing with theonomy.

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We hope you enjoy the conversation. If you'd like to help support Theocast, you can do that by leaving us a review on iTunes and subscribing on your favorite podcast app.

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You can also follow us on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. Plus, we have a Facebook group if you'd like to join the conversation there.

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Thanks for listening. Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ.

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Conversations about the Christian life from a Reformed and pastoral perspective. Your hosts today are

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Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina. And I am John Moffitt, pastor of Grace Reformed Church here in Spring Hill, Tennessee, just south of Nashville.

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Justin, my friend, it's a fun day, special day. Why don't you talk about our book giveaway and also our special guest?

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Yeah, happy to, bro. It's always good to be around the microphone with you to talk about Christ and what He's done for us.

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And we are excited today to have joining us Dr. David Van Drunen, who is the Robert B.

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Strimple Professor of Systematic Theology and Christian Ethics at Westminster Seminary, California. I think

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I got all that right. And also an ordained minister of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. And we are thrilled to have this brother on with us today.

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We've been helped very much, Dr. Van Drunen, by your work in not only Two Kingdoms theology, but even on natural law and the biblical covenants and all those kinds of things and are excited to be able to have a conversation about Two Kingdoms today and just what that looks like and what that means for the

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Christian in the local church. So Dr. Van Drunen, welcome and thank you for being with us today. Thanks.

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Great to join you. Yeah. And so I introduced Dr. Van Drunen initially because we're going to be giving away one of his books today.

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I mean, what else would we do if we've got him on the podcast with us this morning? And so I'm going to hold this up for those who are watching on YouTube.

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We're going to be giving away Dave's book called Living in God's Two Kingdoms. This is an excellent treatment of a reformed view of Two Kingdoms theology.

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And the subtitle is A Biblical Vision for Christianity and Culture. And I'm sure nobody's interested in reading on anything like that these days with everything we have going on.

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And so our winner in terms of one of our members this week that we will be giving this book to is Janna Show.

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So Janna, if you are listening to this podcast, you can send us a message or we will try to get in touch with you.

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I can't ever remember which way this flows, John, my bad. And we will happily read this book to you.

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So we're going to send you an email, Janna, basically. Wait for an email from us and we'll get you your free copy of Dr.

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Van Drunen's book. And if you are listening to this podcast as it releases on a Wednesday and you are interested in getting a free copy of Dr.

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Van Drunen's book, you can go to any of our social media handles on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter and you can enter into the frenzy in the fray to try to win a free resource.

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And we will announce that winner as you're listening to this episode tomorrow, which is Thursday. And so I think

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I've done everything I need to do there. And now let's transition to our conversation. John, why don't you, I've already done a little bit of this, but why don't you set it up for the listener briefly and then we will get

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Dave's thoughts on this since he is certainly more versed in these things than we are. Yeah, so probably,

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I mean, it's always a relevant conversation because it's a biblical conversation, but what's going on in our culture and what we're feeling today is there's a lot of confusion on two things.

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What is the purpose of the Christian life? How are we to involve ourselves in the world? And then secondly, and I think even more of a confusion today is what is the purpose of the church and what is the church to be accomplishing?

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And are we actually accomplishing what God has designed the local bodies to be doing?

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And that's what the conversation is going to be about today. And we're really not going to work through the book.

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My encouragement to you is read it, engage it in that way. What I would love to do is just kind of hear from Dave, kind of,

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I would say, even taking what's going on in modern times and applying it to what I would say a two -kingdom theology.

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There's multiple perspectives that are out there. We're not going to talk about them as far as what is available.

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But one of the things that does happen in this conversation when there's a deemphasizing of the work of Christ in local churches when we're preaching and we aren't talking about what it is that Christ has accomplished and specifically even what

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Christ has accomplished in the work of Adam, right? Where Adam failed, first Adam, Christ succeeds as second

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Adam, and when this isn't herald week after week that all that is required is done, and not only that, the promises of Christ, which is the restoration of all things, when that is not emphasized, you're going to naturally see the work of men then emphasized.

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And so Dave, it would be great to hear from you just talking about how it seems like in our culture,

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Christocentric preaching, the work of Christ, and really what the role of Christians as it relates to the work of Christ is not being emphasized, and because of that, the results of what's happening today.

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Well, I'm afraid that's probably true. I think there's a lot of pressure for preachers to be very practical and to sort of hit the bottom line as people understand that, and even if they don't deny the importance of the work of Christ in some sort of theoretical way or in some background way,

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I think it's just very easy for preachers who are caught up in the pressure of being relevant to sort of leave

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Christ in the background rather than at the very center of things. It doesn't mean we don't talk about practical things, of course, but Christ has to be, he has to be foundational, he has to be central or else we're not really talking about a

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Christian view of things any longer. So I really appreciate that emphasis that you're bringing out, and that's certainly one of the things that I'm trying to bring out in my book,

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Living God's Two Kingdoms, and in other things I've written and in my teaching, and, you know,

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Christians have been debating Christianity and culture issues for as long as the church has existed under different forms and, you know, there are different kinds of debates that have gone on, and I think there is some danger of it becoming abstract or somehow a different debate from our debates about salvation, our debates about the work of Christ, and I really think that's a mistake, and so that's part of what

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I'm, part of what I was trying to show in that book, and I think even for some ideas or some aspects of doctrine that are really not distinctive of what

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I'm saying, I think the way I kind of tie it into the Two Adams theme and to the broader covenant theology is somewhat distinctive.

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Yeah, yeah, one of the things that we discuss all the time here on our podcast is the sufficiency of Jesus Christ to save sinners and the centrality of Christ in terms of the life of the church and the mission of the church and all those things, and even the language that you just used about how

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Christ is often removed from the foreground where he should be and is not because anybody means to do this, but he is sort of relegated to the background, and we really put the

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Christian life and the Christian up in the foreground and make that the focus. I was very encouraged by your book when

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I read it for the first time, even just in the ways that I thought you were super clear about how cultural activities that we engage in are important.

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We're not saying they're unimportant. We need to be engaged in loving neighbor and all of those things, absolutely, but our cultural activities don't usher in the new creation, but instead

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Christ is the one who has done that. You even used beautiful language about just the first Adam, after the first Adam failed and before the second

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Adam, Jesus came. Nobody accomplished the task of the first Adam, but once the second

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Adam came and did it, nobody needs to anymore, and that's a remarkably helpful concept, and I think it's important for the

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Christian in the pew, to put it proverbially like that. Would you want to talk anything about that, just how our cultural activity does not usher in the new creation, but that's

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Christ's business. That's Christ's work? Yeah, sure. I'd be happy to say a few things about that.

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I think one of the things that kind of got me thinking along the lines of what I developed in that book, that there's some influential writers on Christianity and culture issues who have really portrayed the

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Christian life or the Christian cultural engagement as a sort of a picking up of the work of the first Adam.

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Basically, the idea that we look at Genesis 1, we see that God at the beginning gave

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Adam this great commission, this cultural mandate in which he was to be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, exercise dominion, subdue the other creatures, and then as the story sometimes is told, of course, there was a fall, and then human beings just kind of struggled with this task that they had, and then

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Christ comes, and a big part of what Christ's redemption does is sort of gets us back on track, gets us back on the first Adam track, as if now we can kind of do what

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Adam was supposed to do and kind of carry on. And for a lot of people, that seems to be a compelling story, but it doesn't seem to me that that is the way that Scripture portrays it.

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And if you think about the way that Paul puts it into extremely important places in Scripture, Romans 5 and 1

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Corinthians 15, he puts it in terms of two Adams, first Adam, the last

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Adam. The first Adam did have this cultural task, and he should have been obedient, and God would have blessed him richly if he had been obedient.

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He wasn't, so what happens then? What's the solution to that?

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And as Paul puts it, it's not just Paul that says it, but I think Paul kind of crystallizes it.

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And he says, the answer to the first Adam's fall is the last

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Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ. And it's really interesting. It's not the next

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Adam, it's the last Adam. There are no more Adams.

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Yeah, there's only two. And what Paul is getting at is that Christ accomplished what the first Adam was supposed to accomplish.

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And ultimately, that means he accomplished the new creation, right? He is the one who, by whose work the human race reaches its original destination, its original goal, which is that new creation.

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And his work, which the New Testament makes so clear, his work is sufficient.

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There's nothing to be added to his work to bring new creation, to accomplish the kingdom.

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And what we are called to do is to trust in him. And as we trust in him, we have all the benefits that he has won for us as the last

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Adam. And so, I mean, that's just putting it in that way, that's something that all

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Reformed people should just affirm. But I'm not sure always that people think about the implications of that for thinking about Christianity and culture issues.

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If Jesus is the last Adam who has won and accomplished the kingdom, the new creation for us, then is it really correct for us to think of ourselves as sort of new

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Adams, getting back on the original Adam track? Now, I think it's true that we still have certain responsibilities that resemble that original commission.

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I mean, we still have a certain task of ruling this world under God's lordship.

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To look at it through the grid of doing what the first Adam was supposed to do, I think is just very confusing in terms of our broader conception of Christology, our broader doctrine of salvation.

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And there are certainly responsibilities that we have under the covenant God made with Noah that would govern this common kingdom.

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There's two things. I would love to maybe trace out some of those implications that you were even referring to.

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There's a lot of implications of understanding the work of Christ this way with respect to issues of church and culture,

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Christianity and culture and the like. But maybe really quickly before we trace out those implications, you were talking about the task or the charge of the first Adam, and had he obeyed

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God, there was eternal blessedness that awaited him and all of his posterity.

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This is not a podcast about covenant theology proper, but we do talk a lot on Theocast about covenant theology.

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It seems to me, and I know John agrees, that really, really vital to this conversation and this understanding is an affirmation, not just of covenant theology in general, but of the covenant of works in particular.

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Because if a person rightly understands the covenant of works that God made with Adam in the garden, and how should he have obeyed that charge, that commission, how he would have earned eternal life and blessedness for himself and his posterity.

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But then in breaking that covenant, by violating it and eating of the tree that he should not have, he failed that test and therefore plunged himself and all of us into ruin.

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Could you talk for just a minute about the importance of the covenant of works even when it comes to this two kingdoms understanding and even thinking about the work of Christ and what that means for us?

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That'd be great. Sure. I'm not sure I can do it in a minute, but if you give me a minute. Take several.

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Take several. Take your time. Yes, I really appreciate your, what you just said and your appreciation and wanting to promote the idea of the covenant of works.

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I do think it just is, it is very foundational for a lot of other things. And for my own work, just trying to connect our

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Christian culture debates with covenant theology, I think is just, it's really important.

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And it's remarkable that as much as so many people with reformed convictions want to talk about the covenants or covenant theology, sometimes that drops out of focus when we're talking about Christianity.

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In this conversation. Which is remarkable in a way. And so, that's one thing that has been sort of a burden for me is to say, can we reconnect these lines of discussion?

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Because they seem so dependent upon each other in many ways. So, okay. So, yes.

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I think if we believe that God entered covenant with Adam at the beginning and through Adam with his posterity yet to be born, and that if Adam had been obedient,

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God would have blessed him with that same blessing that we are looking forward to now, that new creation, that eschatological glorification, that's really important.

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And that means that if, since Adam failed at that, there's this huge looming question as to how will, how can human beings attain that goal if the one who was commissioned to accomplish at the beginning failed miserably at that task?

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And that's where the idea then of Jesus coming as a last

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Adam, which meant he was coming under a new covenant of works.

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He came to accomplish that, to pay the penalty for violating that first, but also, and this is really important, also to do the work, to obey

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God's law perfectly, to love God and neighbor as human beings are called to do.

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So, I mean, this is just fundamental Christian theology, certainly fundamental reform theology.

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And, you know, if that's the case, then our obedience as Christians and our calling in this world, we are not doing these things as the first Adam was called to do them or as Christ accomplished them because we are not under a covenant of works.

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Thank God for that. I mean, we're, we don't want to be under a covenant of works that would mean death for all of us.

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And so we're under the covenant of grace and, and, you know, this is,

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I think part of the difficulty getting back to the previous, the previous question, if we see ourselves as sort of new

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Adams called to do the original Adamic work, I mean, that implies it's not necessarily people don't necessarily mean this, but it would seem to imply that we are under a covenant of works.

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I mean, that's how that original commission came to Adam. That's right. The creation mandate was part of the covenant of works and do this and live.

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That's right. And, and so, I mean, we don't want to say that, and so I think that the question is, can we just, can we take that original

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Adamic mandate and just strip it out of its original context and then just put it on Christians today?

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Well, that, that, that, that seems problematic. And this is why I think as, as part of this, of my attempt to frame these

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Christianity and culture debates within a, within a covenant theology, the

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Noahic covenant after the great flood recorded at the end of Genesis eight, beginning of Genesis nine, this is where this becomes important because we say, okay, well, what don't we still have some sort of creation mandate after the fall?

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Don't we still have some kind of creation mandate as Christians? And I say, yeah, we do. But it comes to us not sort of directly from Genesis one, but it comes to us when

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I say filtered or refracted through this Noahic covenant. This is the creation mandate that comes to sinners.

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Yeah. This is the mandate that says, okay, now you're living in a fallen world, right? God is preserving through its common grace and you look at, you know, the, those kind of basic moral requirements in the

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Noahic covenant in Genesis nine, they kind of resemble those in Genesis one, but they don't come in exactly the same way.

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And we can see that they're geared for a fallen world. Retributive justice and things of that nature. Right.

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I mean, yeah. He who sheds the blood of man by man shall his blood be shed. Genesis nine, six. Right. We don't find that in Genesis one.

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Why not? Well, I mean, there were no, there's no violence, there's no bloodshed before the fall.

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You didn't need that. But after, you know, after the fall in this preserved world, you know, if we are going to be responsible, if we are going to rule creation in some way, now we have to have a justice system.

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We have to think about how we correct and punish wrongdoing.

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And so it just seems to me so much more helpful to say, instead of looking at Genesis one as our, you know, that's sort of our go -to text in thinking about our cultural responsibilities, making us new

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Adams. Well, no, it's really more like Genesis nine. I agree. You know, this is how it comes to us in a fallen world.

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And I mean, people ask me this question a lot is like, people who are vaguely familiar with what I'm doing on these issues.

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And they'll say, well, why don't you just look at creation? I mean, can't you just talk about the creation order? And doesn't that kind of get you to the same place?

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And basically what I've just been saying is my explanation for why I think it's much more helpful to look at this through the grid of the

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Noahic covenant, Genesis eight and nine. If you're new to Theocast, we have a free ebook available for you called

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Faith vs. Faithfulness, A Primer on Rest. And if you've struggled with legalism, a lack of assurance, or simply want to know what it means to live by faith alone, we wrote this little book to provide a simple answer from a

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Reformed confessional perspective. You can get your free copy at theocast .org

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slash primer. If I may briefly, yeah, in the

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Noahic covenant, you do get not only the principles of proportionate retributive justice that we've already acknowledged, but there still is the defense and the cultivation of procreation through marriage and the family, that's implied.

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I mean, so those are things that every human being, Christian or not, should be concerned to protect in the common kingdom.

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And yeah, I agree that it's very helpful when we can point that out, that we're not necessarily going back to the Adamic covenant, the covenant of creation, the covenant of works, but really the covenant

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God made with Noah to see how we now live in this fallen world that's being sustained so that the Redeemer can come.

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Yeah. Yeah. To add to that, probably the greatest questions that a lot of humans ask is, what does

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God think of me? What must I do? And then once we deal with the relationship between sinner and sovereign, now it's, what do

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I do with all this brokenness around me? And there's a thousand and one questions or answers that are provided.

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I think what's been helpful for me in my transition from a dispensational to reform perspective is the introduction of a redemptive historic understanding of Scripture.

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Because when you, Justin, what made me think about this is when you say the fall, we're really talking about, in Genesis 3, the whole earth is cursed, right?

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Romans says we're all groaning under this curse. So from Genesis 3 forward, we're not dealing with a world that is simply fallen apart and needs to be put back together.

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We're dealing with the world that is cursed and that curse is held by God and He's the one who releases it.

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And obviously, Jesus is the one who comes and He is the restorer of all things. So now we have to look at pain and suffering and what's going on in this world and fracturing.

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And we have to ask, what is our role in this? Like, how do we handle this? So I would love to kind of talk about and hear your thoughts on when we understand the

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Bible from a redemptive historic understanding, we understand the arc of it and our role in it, I think it changes your perspective of when you look at pain and suffering, we can't abolish it now, but what can we offer?

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What is the responsibility of the Christian that is now a child of God dealing with a world that is in utter chaos?

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Yeah, I mean, I think the prime thing that we offer as Christians is something that nothing but Christianity can offer.

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That's right. Which is the fact that there is forgiveness of sins and there is an everlasting inheritance that is ours in the

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Lord Jesus Christ. And there is hope of resurrection in a new creation in which there is no more brokenness.

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There's no more disease. There's no more injustice. Ultimately, what we offer is an eschatological hope.

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And I think it's just essential that when we proclaim the gospel to unbelievers, and as we are instructing believers within our churches, that we are very clear that becoming a

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Christian, living as a Christian in this life does not exempt someone from suffering or it's not a promise to lessen suffering.

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In fact, I think we could say it's actually just the opposite of that. Theology of the cross. We'll have to,

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I mean, we as Christians have to, we have to continue to endure all the ordinary sufferings of this world, right?

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Sickness and financial struggle and relationship break. I mean, political unrest, war.

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All those things are, Christians have to endure those alongside non -Christians.

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But we also have the additional suffering of being persecuted, being reviled for the sake of Christ.

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And so, that's just part of what the Christian life is. And our hope within that, our comfort, our consolation is the fact that we belong to Christ.

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Already by his spirit, he gives us incalculable comfort in the midst of the sufferings of this life, and we know that there's a time coming when he will wipe every tear from our eyes, as the scripture says.

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Now, I would also add, I mean, I think as part of it is that we, of course, we as Christians can and do rightly participate in what we might say are common grace activities in this world that can lessen suffering to some degree.

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I mean, Christians can become doctors or nurses and contribute to the healing of illness. And of course, many, many other examples.

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But the thing is, I mean, it's not, we as Christians don't do those things uniquely, right? I mean, we can join unbelievers, and we ought to join unbelievers who are interested in these things as well.

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And those are good things. We want to affirm that these are good things. But the ultimate answer to the brokenness and the curse of this world is not advances in medicine or economic development.

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However beneficial those might be for day -to -day life, but it's that everlasting hope that we have in Christ.

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And that's what the church has to proclaim. I mean, that is... Real quick, you've mentioned a couple of times, I think it'd be helpful just to the theological understanding of common grace.

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I think that was really helpful for me in understanding kind of God's common grace to all humanity versus his salvific grace.

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Yeah, this is an idea that's been a part of Reformed theology really since its beginning, but I think it's perhaps become more emphasized or more clear as a theological category in more recent years.

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So, the basic idea is that God's grace comes in some kind of a two -fold way in this world.

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Of course, what we're most interested in, what we tend to emphasize is God's saving or special grace, which is that grace by which he forgives sins, by which he makes us his children, gives us everlasting life, that comes through the atoning work of the

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Lord Jesus Christ. But this other form in which grace comes, it's common grace, is a grace which he gives to this world in general.

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It's a preserving grace. It's not a grace that brings new creation, but it's a grace which sustains this world that maintains the cycles of nature that gives the blessings of rain and sunshine to this world at large.

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And so, Christians and non -Christians both benefit from this common grace. And so,

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I think as not all Reformed theologians, but as many

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Reformed theologians have put it that this, the Noahic covenant after the flood, which we were talking about earlier, this is a common grace covenant.

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It doesn't promise redemption. Jim It doesn't say anything. It doesn't promise a Messiah. It doesn't talk about forgiveness of sins.

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What it does is it promises the preservation of this present world and the cycles of nature and the sort of the basic structures of family life and a system of justice.

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Yeah, I think that's super helpful. So, even these common ordinary things that we participate in alongside unbelievers, it's not as if these things are independent of God or of God's supervision,

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God's governance. It's not that they're utterly secular as we sometimes refer to them in our culture.

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Yeah, that's right. I mean, these areas of life are accountable to God. They're in covenant with God, not through the new covenant.

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Not through the Noahic covenant. So, I think this is a biblically sound way, a theologically helpful way to be able to explain that all areas of life are under God's control and we are responsible to God and accountable to God for how we conduct ourselves there without simply collapsing all areas of life into the work of the church and not maintaining the important distinction between these other areas of life and what the church is accomplishing.

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Right, you're kind of already going there. I think it'd be great for us to maybe riff for a minute on how Two Kingdoms theology does keep the mission of the church clear, which makes the church more effective in what the

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Lord has instituted it to do. But then it also, on the other hand, it liberates the Christian to be involved in good pursuits in the culture, in society, and doing various things motivated by love of neighbor.

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So, maybe we could go there for a few minutes. Two Kingdoms theology and how that helps the church and then how that helps us as Christians be engaged in the culture.

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Yeah, and I would just add the difference between assuming that we're going to actually see progress in this cursed world versus Noah, you're actually playing out the second greatest command.

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Yeah. Yeah, sure. Yeah, let me begin. Just a brief note.

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I mean, you're using the term Two Kingdoms theology. I've never used that term and people have different reasons for using different terms.

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I'm happy to not use it then. Well, I'm not telling you can't use it. I just want to briefly say why

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I don't use it and you can see whether it makes any sense. So, what do you say?

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You don't need to tell me. So, I tend to think of the Two Kingdoms as a doctrine or as maybe a theological category that it fits as part of a broader reformed theology or broader covenant theology.

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I don't think you mean it by this, but I think perhaps sometimes people, when they

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Two Kingdoms theology, that it sort of implies that there's some kind of idiosyncratic, esoteric, weird theological thing going on here and it's actually just,

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I think the Two Kingdoms doctrine or category makes sense within a broader reformed or covenant theology.

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So, that's, I just want to - Hey, I received it. We can say Two Kingdom perspective. The doctrine of Two Kingdoms.

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Yeah, I mean, whatever terms we use, sometimes we just have to explain what we mean by them.

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Yeah, absolutely. And precision is good, clarity is good. Especially in today's world. Yes, yeah. So, okay, getting to, yeah, why does the

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Two Kingdoms doctrine or the Two Kingdoms idea, why does it, how does it help? First of all, you're asking for the church -

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The mission of the church. And yeah, I think that's great. So, the idea of the Two Kingdoms, at least the way it seems to me,

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I think this is in line with historical reformed ways of thinking about this. You might think of these

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Two Kingdoms, these two rules of God in terms of common grace and special grace, they basically correspond.

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Or these two covenants, God's rule through the Noahic covenant, God's rule through Abrahamic, Mosaic, new covenants in progressive stages of redemptive history.

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God rules this whole world, but He carries out His rule in this twofold way through preserving this world in which

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He's truly ruling the world, but He's also ruling in this special way by way of redemption, by way of saving a people for Himself and preparing them for this new creation which

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He's bringing. And yeah, I think we could talk about this for a long time potentially, but I think to try to put it really briefly, the church is not an instrument of God's common grace.

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The church is an institution created by His special grace to serve the purposes of this special saving grace.

34:49

Yeah, there are so many institutions or bodies, whatever you want to call them in this world, right?

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We have political institutions and legal institutions and educational institutions and economic institutions, and I think you can see all of these, they kind of arise organically through the

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Noahic covenant, right? As we carry out our responsibilities in this world, we're going to create governments and courts and businesses and schools and they carry out these various tasks, and that's great, that's fine.

35:30

It's interesting that when Jesus came, He didn't establish any of those things, right? He didn't establish a government, didn't establish courts,

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He didn't establish a school, He didn't establish a business. In a sense,

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He didn't have to do any of that. I mean, those things already existed. He said,

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He only established one institution, Matthew 16,

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I will build my church. He never said that about any other thing.

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And He said, and I give to you, Peter, on behalf of the other apostles,

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I give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. So, when Jesus is talking about establishing this church,

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He says that the gates of hell are not going to prevail against it, right? This is an unconquerable kingdom, and what is the one thing

36:27

He wants us to know about this kingdom? It has the keys of the kingdom, and it's not,

36:34

He doesn't give the keys of the kingdom to any other institution. He doesn't give it to the government, or these keys,

36:41

He doesn't give them to the government, He doesn't give them, He doesn't even give them to the family, I mean, per se, right?

36:46

Petey That's right, that's good. That's right, right. Aaron And I think this is, to me, this fits in with the two kingdoms doctrine because when

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He's talking about the keys of the kingdom of heaven, He's talking about this redemptive kingdom, this everlasting kingdom.

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The church is serving that kingdom. Petey Right, an eschatological kingdom even.

37:12

Aaron Yeah, it doesn't have the physical sword, right? So, it's not, He doesn't, Jesus doesn't commission the church to be taking over political functions or to take over economic functions.

37:24

It's not even, not to take over the family's functions, right? And these other institutions are good, they have their place, they're important.

37:34

But those other institutions are supposed to be doing certain things, right? The church is to be doing what Christ gave it to do.

37:41

Petey Yeah. Aaron What business does the church have of making up its own functions? We are called as a church to administer the keys of the kingdom.

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And as Jesus explains it, I mean, this is about, you know, what is bound on earth shall have been bound in heaven, what's loosed on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

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So, this is about opening and shutting the gates of the kingdom of heaven. And, you know, there's obviously a lot more to say here, but there's so much pressure on churches to do all sorts of things to be sort of all purpose organizations that are going to, you know, serve the city.

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And, you know, they're going to, you know, be, they have this ministry, you know, quote unquote, ministry here and ministry there.

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And some of these things are, they're fine, they're good in and of themselves. But you think, why is the church actually doing these things?

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Petey That's right. Aaron Testament doesn't talk about the church doing these things. Petey Right. Aaron The church has enough struggle doing what

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Christ gave it to do. Petey That's right. Aaron Administering the word and sacraments. Petey Exactly. Aaron Diaconal work, ministry to its own members, shepherding, discipling, disciplining, folks evangelizing.

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I mean, those are pretty, those are pretty weighty, difficult, time consuming tasks.

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So the church ought not to be getting distracted by trying to do all sorts of other things. And I think that Two Kingdoms idea helps us see that.

39:06

Petey Yeah, absolutely. Aaron So anyway, I still want to follow up, but that's. Petey Yeah. So, I mean, as I'm listening to you, there's a lot of things that I want to talk about.

39:12

I'd love to talk about the mission of the church longer, but we won't go there right now. But I mean, effectively too, I think it helps us see an understanding of Two Kingdoms doctrine helps us see how the church as an institution has a certain mission that it needs to give itself to.

39:25

Petey That's right. But then Christians, individual Christians can be involved in any number of activities and pursuits and even found other institutions in this common kingdom of the world to do good to neighbor, pursue justice, etc.

39:40

Aaron Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. So I guess that's getting to your second question before, right? Yeah. So I think, yeah, that's great.

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And I think that's really important. This is what I've just been saying is not at all designed to say, well, these other are unimportant or Christians should just forget about them and just focus on evangelism.

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No, I mean, we do have responsibilities in this broader world. We as Christians have responsibilities in the other kingdom, in God's common kingdom.

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Petey That's right. Aaron And yes, I like the fact that you bring out that there's sort of this liberty that this implies for Christians.

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We as Christians, if the church wasn't in charge of all these other things, I suppose we'd have to do all of these things under the direction of the elders of the church, telling us, if you want to be involved here, here's how you do it under us.

40:32

No, I mean, we as Christians are, we are freed to serve God and serve our neighbor in all sorts of different ways, depending on what sort of opportunities do we have?

40:45

What sort of skills do we have? What sort of talents do we have? What are we interested in even? Petey Do we have?

40:50

Yeah, sure. Right. And so to say, well, that, you know, maybe running medical clinics is not actually what the church ought to be doing.

41:00

It's not saying Christians with medical training shouldn't be doing that.

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No, I mean, go out and find a medical organization that's doing good work, or as you're saying, go ahead and found a medical organization that does this work and gather like -minded people together who can do this work well and serve, you know, be an instrument of God for serving your neighbor by doing this.

41:29

It doesn't have to be the work of the church in order to be legitimate and meaningful and Christ honoring.

41:35

And in fact, I would say it's going to be more Christ honoring and beneficial for your if you're not doing it under the guise of the church.

41:44

I think that just confuses what's going on. The elders of the church, hopefully were not appointed to their, they're not set aside, appointed to that task because they have expertise in medicine or expertise in economic development or whatever.

42:01

Hopefully it's because they meet the kind of criteria that Paul lays out in Titus 1 or 1st Timothy 3, which had nothing to do with those sorts of things.

42:10

I mean, some of those things that you just said, like in the last 30 to 45 seconds, kind of blow the minds up of so many evangelical

42:18

Christians because it is so different than what they have ever been taught to think in the church because they've grown up or cut their teeth in a context where it is the mission of the church and the church needs to be engaged in A, B, and C.

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And how in the world could it be better and more Christ honoring for the church not to be doing these things formally, but for us just to be going and doing them ourselves in love of neighbor?

42:41

It really is kind of a category paradigm shift for so many people. Yeah, I mowed,

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I know this doesn't sound like a big deal, but my neighbor has a massive yard. So it can be like an hour and a half, but I mowed my neighbor's yard yesterday and I didn't tell him, we have a ministry at our church where we mow people's lawns.

42:59

It's like, it's just a nice, kind, loving thing to do. And I don't need to blame the church for it.

43:04

That's what love of neighbor means. One last thing before we move over to the

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SR podcast is that we always kind of love to think about this from a pastoral perspective, like how do we shepherd people here?

43:18

How do we love on them? And it is hard as two pastors, and I know that you as well,

43:24

Shepard, and I can even hear your Shepard's heart in this, which is what Justin and I love. But pastors receive a lot of pressure to be involved in a lot of things, and it would be great just to kind of close this out and just to love on congregants, but also love on pastors and say, this is how you shepherd people who really feel that pressure to be involved in social justice when we really need to focus in on the gospel advancement in our local context, caring for the burdens of each other, and then also how do we advance the gospel in our community?

43:58

Yeah, boy, I guess there's so much we could talk about there. I mean, there is one way that I sometimes put it when

44:08

I'm talking to churches about this, is remember the incompetence of your pastor.

44:16

So that's not usually what people would expect to hear, but it's - Received. And pastors wouldn't typically want to be called incompetent, but actually a lot of pastors, they really appreciate this because at least most pastors, there may be some self -deceived pastors, but most pastors know that they're incompetent on all sorts of things.

44:40

I mean, sometimes we'd sort of feel incompetent just on the things we're supposed to be doing, just ministering the word and -

44:45

Yeah, we're insufficient. We feel our own weaknesses, but we know that we're not, at least most pastors are not trained in medicine, they're not trained in accounting, they're not trained in law, they're not trained in engineering.

44:59

I mean, whatever. They're not trained in community development. And I think it can be really helpful for just ordinary

45:13

Christians to remember that their pastors are not omni -competent and their elders are not omni -competent.

45:20

And so don't expect them to be experts on everything and therefore don't expect your to be the kind of thing that can micromanage every possible area in which

45:32

Christians can offer good service to God and neighbor. And so I think that can be helpful for both pastors and congregants to hear.

45:43

And at the same time, I do think pastors have this responsibility to help the people under their care to be growing in wisdom.

45:55

I think that's a better way to think of it. It's not as if we're indifferent to how people under our care are carrying out their ordinary cultural endeavors.

46:07

I mean, we appreciate it when they care enough to want to know how to do it well. And even though we're not called to micromanage their broader cultural lives, what we are called to do is to help them grow generally in wisdom.

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And as we minister the Word of God to them, as we step alongside them pastorally and help them just try to encourage them,

46:33

I think we are helping them become wise people who can then go out and make better decisions and serve other people better.

46:42

And I think sometimes there are times when people come to us and want to know, how do I do this?

46:49

Something that we say, well, I can't give you what thus says the Lord about how to do this, but I can sometimes help people ask the right questions and to put things in the right perspective.

47:04

And I think that can be tremendously helpful, even if we're not going to take the last step and say, okay, this is what you need to do.

47:10

Yeah, yeah. I guess those are a few thoughts. No, that is really helpful. So maybe a very quick parting shot here.

47:19

If you're talking to the average congregant who's a church member, they're not in vocational ministry.

47:25

They've got a nine to five. Maybe they're married. Maybe they've got kids. And they're asking the question, okay,

47:30

I've heard about this doctrine of the two kingdoms today, and give me some just handles.

47:36

Give me something. Why would this matter for me as just a member of the church?

47:42

What difference would this understanding make for me? Yeah, I think I would probably first of all want them to see that this elevates the church and its ministry.

48:00

I hope it would help them to understand why the church is different from every other institution in this world and why it's so important and so crucial.

48:15

And why they need to be looking to the church as that place where they receive the means of grace week by week.

48:28

And then on the other hand, to say, look, this is also a way for you to understand that what you're doing in the rest of your life, in your ordinary vocations, whatever you want to call that, that this too is meaningful, but you don't have to look at these things in terms of bringing in the kingdom in order to understand them as meaningful.

49:00

And so, it would help them, I hope, to see their vocations in a new light.

49:08

And I hope also that when they fail at their vocations or when, you know, when things don't go well, they're not failing to bring in the kingdom.

49:19

They're not, it doesn't mean that somehow Christ's work is, you know, they're bad instruments of Christ's redemptive work in this world, right?

49:29

I mean, this is part of what happens in this life is that, you know, we try things, we fail at things sometimes, and God still has his purposes in bringing us through these things.

49:43

And all we're called to do is be faithful, right? Be faithful in the various tasks God sets before us.

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And in a sense, we leave the results to him. And we trust that he will continue to work out all things for our good and for his glory.

50:01

And as we're faithful, he will use us as instruments to bless others in this world. He who began a good work, we don't complete it.

50:09

He completes it. Well, we're going to move over to the Simple Reformanda podcast where we're going to have a little bit more of a lively conversation.

50:16

We're going to deal with some common objections, and those are a lot of fun, to this perspective of Reformed theology.

50:24

This doctrine of the two kingdoms. This doctrine of the two kingdoms. You know, Justin, you were graciously rebuked.

50:29

You took it well. Justin Perdue I received it, and I will speak differently moving forward. Forever changed as a result of our time.

50:36

Dr. Benjriner, we really appreciate your time. Dr. Benjriner Absolutely. Justin Perdue I know the listeners will be encouraged by this conversation. Dr. Benjriner If you'd like to join in this conversation, you can go to our website, theocast .org,

50:44

and we have a private podcast there. We have an app where you can come in and join in the conversation there as well.