March 7, 2018 Show with Daniel Deeds on “Will I Make it to Heaven? A New Look at the Perseverance of the Saints” (Part 2)

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions

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Now here's our host Chris Arnton Good Afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron Radio .com.

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This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Monday on the 7th day of May 2018

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I am sorry for the delay in broadcast Broadcasting I should say today because we were testing new software at first love radio and it wasn't matching up with the software here and Carlisle, Pennsylvania Where I am broadcasting from so we had to revert back to our old practice of Broadcasting and I am sorry for that delay, but we will be on the air for a full two hours nonetheless

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But regardless of that I am delighted to have back on the program today

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Daniel Deeds who received his BA in theology at Randall University in Moore, Oklahoma he's the son of American missionaries to Brazil church planter and pastor at Igreja Batista Historica, and of course, we will once again have that corrected that Portuguese accent correction corrected and He is the director of The Historic Baptist Theological Institute and board member of the

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Reformed Baptist Convention of Brazil He is a published author and today we are addressing part two of a discussion.

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We began last Monday Will I make it to heaven a new look at the perseverance of the

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Saints and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio Daniel Deeds Well, thank you.

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It's an honor to be here and I appreciate you giving me another opportunity to be on your wonderful program Well, I really appreciate it

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Daniel and let me give our email address for those Wanting to join us on the air with questions of your own

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Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris ar n z e n at gmail .com

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Please give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA and Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter

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Before we go into the topic there are no doubt going to be a number of listeners

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Today who are discovering you for the very first time So, why don't you let us know something about the church?

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Were you a pastor in Brazil? Sure. Yes, we are in a city of about 120 ,000 people in Brazil in a region that very

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Traditional a very small number of evangelical churches proportional to the population and that's where we've started the church

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We've planted a church and we have two congregations that we're working on getting two more churches started in neighboring cities in the city where we are we are the basically, the only church that has really stood for Reformed theology.

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There are some other churches that have they have some Identification with reformed theology, but that has not really been their emphasis and it's not something they really

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They really call for and so that might be speaking to people we are

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Brother you're you're getting muffled with your voice again Is there anything that you you got to make sure you keep your mouth close to the mouthpiece of whatever you using?

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Sure, let me see if I could do it like this if that helps Okay, and you could continue

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I'm sorry, yes, well But we're in a we're in a region where? Not very much missionary work has been done.

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But some has been done and there are You know some evangelical churches, but it's one of the according to the

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Brazilian government statistics It's the part of Brazil that has the lowest proportion of evangelicals within the population so that's a mission that we have to be there in and carry the gospel to that part of the country and The the

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Lord is really blessed in the last few years. We've seen significant growth. We've seen the church become stable and we're able now to reach out to other communities and we're starting new churches in new cities where again, we don't have we don't have very many churches that would have a identification with the kind of theology the kind of message that we're teaching most of the churches in that region are

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Pentecostal or neo -pentecostal I think most I'm talking about probably over 80 % So most of what is being preached in evangelical churches when we use the name evangelical very broad name.

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We're talking about prosperity theology and very little message about repentance and forgiveness of sins and service to God and that sense that Christians have traditionally stood up for now.

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There are some other churches I don't want to give the impression that we're the only ones there are other churches that really preach the

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Gospels Christ and forgiveness of sins, but but we are in the minority even of the evangelicals So it's a very needy part of the country, but the

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Lord's blessed us and allowed us to read some very dear people there and we've seen people just Coming from different backgrounds.

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Most of the people that make up our church have no past in Evangelical churches at all

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They either came out of unbelief completely and in the Bible or they came from some religious background

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Where they didn't believe in salvation by grace through faith, even though they professed to be Christian And so that's been the emphasis of our mission there.

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So have the majority then been Who have come to Christ through your ministry former

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Roman Catholics? Yes, I would say the majority are and There are some also who have come out of the spiritism

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Spiritism is very popular in Brazil. And so these are people who have believed in the past and things like reincarnation and just the whole idea that Jesus was not

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Divine in any sense. He was just a leader that Brought spiritual light to the world was that just like maybe a

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Buddha or something like that? so there's no real Christian distinctive even though sometimes there's a

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Message that you know, they would go to the Catholic Church and they get baptized there but you wouldn't find even the elements that we would agree with and The traditional

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Catholic doctrine and some of their views other ones are from a Catholic background But then of course, they don't understand the gospel of grace.

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They don't understand the way of salvation You know the emphasis that the Reformation brought and so those things were also needed to be

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Communicated to those who came from that kind of background Now So I'm assuming from what you said those

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Folks who may profess to be Christian, but are saying that Jesus Christ Isn't the

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God man He's just a great leader or something a great prophet and teacher I'm assuming from what you said that this isn't coming from some specific cult or denomination that has a false understanding of Christ This is just people

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Using the the basic The basic teaching of humanism that May not be atheistic or agnostic

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They are you know, like your average liberal in the United States might even believe something like that Is that what you're saying or is it coming from a specific cult?

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No, that is correct. It's basically people who have received no teaching about the Bible even though they profess to be

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Christian So they've learned what they believe to You know random sources within society that kind of thing great and Do you think

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I've noticed that? in all of the Latin countries

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Where Roman Catholicism has been dominant for centuries the rise of the

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Pentecostal and charismatic movements there Do you see that You see the connection of the flourishing of Pentecostals and charismatics because of the connection with Roman Catholicism on one major issue and that is an emphasis of the miraculous even though I Don't know what it's like in the

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Latin countries today in regard to Roman Catholicism. But for instance in most

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American Roman Catholic churches They will be very stoic. They will be very reserved in nature and in the way people worship

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But there will still be a very strong belief in Holy water and relics having some kind of power to them because they've been blessed by a priest even even modern -day

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Manufactured crucifixes that might be made out of plastic Are deemed to have some kind of supernatural power because they are blessed by a priest and you have people who have vials of water from Lords and things like that.

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Is that do you think that that is a connection to the flourishing of? penis Pentecostal is a man in the charismatic movement because they they really

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They they out miracle the Catholics if you will in in the 21st century in the way that they of course we don't believe that That what we are seeing in those churches and denominations are really miracles

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But they will claim the claims of the miraculous are far more abundant than you would find at least in America And I'm assuming places like the

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UK and so forth Yes, that's certainly true in Brazil the population is very mystical in many ways and that's

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I think always been part of Catholicism There are many people who will have claims that they've received Revelations through apparitions of Mary and things like that.

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There's a large part of the population today That's skeptical of that kind of thing, but that's also very popular.

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And so there are claims for healing and supernatural Intervention right near where we are.

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There's a church Catholic Church It has a room of miracles and it will have a lot of testimonies that are posted on the wall and Different reports of cases where people received miracles in their lives and things that supposed to be supernatural interferences like this that came from praying to a saint or praying to Mary or sometimes even praying to to God directly and this kind of emphasis does

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Already exist in the society. And so I believe that that does contribute for this kind of religion like the

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Pentecostal ism and the neo -pentecostal ism to come in and Actually emphasize that even more and attempt to do one better Like you said,

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I think that really does contribute to the growth of movements like that in a country like Brazil And I do want to say once again

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That I'm not or I'm I'm sorry if I am broad -brushing Pentecostals and charismatics.

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I believe that there are Many fine genuine brethren in Christ who come from those backgrounds

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And they run a very large spectrum of belief under the umbrella of What would be called

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Pentecostal or charismatic just like under the umbrella of Baptists you have? Quite a spectrum as well.

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I mean, that's true but and of course The miracle of salvation which is the greatest miracle of all

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I believe does occur within Pentecostals Pentecostal and charismatic movements and churches and so on so I don't want to completely

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I don't want to completely erase any miraculous things that Are actually happening. I'm just talking about the majority of things that are viewed as signed gifts where where Alleged miracles are happening through the laying on of hands and all that kind of thing now

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I have heard and I have seen in in documentaries and videos and Things like that that Many of us who were

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Cradle Catholics born and raised in the Catholic Church in America and perhaps

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UK and other places We don't really know what? Catholicism is like until we've been to places like the

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Latin countries That where where Mariolatry is far more abundant and prominent and vibrant and superstitious.

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Would that be true of Brazil? Yes, I believe that is true

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I've noticed that Catholicism changes Depending where it is in the

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United States. You would have very few images in the churches and homes Whereas in Brazil there it's very common to see a lot of emphasis like that in our city

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On Holy Week, there will be processions in the street where You know Over a thousand people sometimes will make a line just following an image from one church to another where they have this ceremony where they

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Put crowns on the heads of the image and people could come to kiss the image and touch it

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With the belief that that's one way that they will receive a blessing from God and even healing and things like this

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Does change and even in Brazil depending on where you are in Brazil such a big country that we have local

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Cultures that are a little bit different and in some parts of Brazil, it's very Connected even to spiritist practices what you see going on in some of the

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Catholic churches. So that really depends on where you are Yes, I I used to Broadcast from an all

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Spanish Christian station. I was the only English program on the station and the only reformed program on the station and This was because a

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Spanish Christian Network Bought out the English -speaking Christian station that where my program aired and it was funny.

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Hey, are you there brother? I think I just lost my guest Daniel deeds. Are you there?

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Yep. Daniel is gone. Well, we will have to wait for Daniel to call back and I'm sure he'll be calling back.

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Well, at least I hope he'll be calling back any second now and there goes Daniel and Hello Daniel, I'm not sure what happened there

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Yes, I did. I've lost I've heard you saying that you used to broadcast and that was the last thing

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I heard Yeah, my show iron sharpens iron radio used to broadcast out of WNYG Radio on Long Island, New York and it was bought out.

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It wasn't English Speaking Christian station predominantly contemporary

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Christian music and it was bought out by a Spanish Network that has stations all over the tri -state area of New York and even in Puerto Rico and I believe some other

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Latin American countries But my program is the only The only

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English speaking program when it got taken over by the Spanish Network And in fact,

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I for a couple of days Lost the the program because everybody who was working for the

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English Station English -speaking station when the Spanish station took over everybody lost their jobs and I got a call a few days later from the general manager of Radio Contigo Nuevo and who said to me is this?

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Mr. Chris Would you like to come back to this station our phones are ringing off the hook people want your show back

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So I remained on that station for several years until I relocate relocated here to Pennsylvania, but I noticed something that just as in American and English -speaking

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Pentecostal ism and charismatic Churches You will

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I you could tell when a Spanish -speaking pastor on the air was speaking in tongues

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He was very using he was very often or most often just using a couple of syllables and repeating them over and over again

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So if this if it was if it was a real language it would be the same word just being repeated over and over and I noticed that I III was a lot of the the noise that was being made but but As we were saying there is a seemed it seems to be a close connection to the charismatic movement and Roman Catholicism even though you might have a lot of Pentecostal and charismatic pastors denouncing the

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Church of Rome from their pulpits because of theological reasons, there's still a lot of Similarity and and I don't know what it's like in the

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Hispanic culture and perhaps you could tell us But in the American culture or in the

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American Pentecostal and charismatic movements You will find a lot of ecumenism or ecumenism

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Today, whereas I remember in the 1980s when I was searching before I Finally found a home in a

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Reformed Baptist Church where I believe I was saved when I was visiting a lot of Pentecostal and charismatic churches

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Even in the 80s, which isn't really all that long ago for some of our listeners.

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It's their whole lives But but I can remember there being a lot of Correct sentiments opposed to Roman Catholicism whereas today

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Ecumenism is rampant with Rome and the charismatic and Pentecostal churches. What is it like in the

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Latin American countries and In Brazil in particular in that regard Right.

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Well, I'll speak mostly for Brazil because I don't keep up so well with what's going on in the Spanish -speaking countries

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But what is going on in Brazil is is very much like what you described some of the most important leaders in even churches that come from historical traditional denominations like Baptists and groups like the

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Assembly of God and some of these other groups some of them have become very friendly towards the

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Catholic Church even having Catholic priests come and speak to their congregation preaching in the church that kind of thing has happened and it's caused you know concerns of how much do these people really understand the gospel and the doctrine of justification by faith alone

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Because that is not something that you will find within the theology of these of these Catholic Priests who will accept an invitation to come and speak at your church

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One of the things that I believe does contribute to that. It's just the fact that the

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Pentecostals Emphasized the experience of speaking in tongues as evidence of the Holy Spirit Which they will also realize that happens in the same manner with the charismatic

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Catholics And so I think that that has a tendency to make them look Well, it must be our brothers because There is a common experience here that we associate with the

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Holy Spirit And of course, it's also true that that same kind of experience can be

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Christian brother your voice is your voice is getting muffled again. You have to make sure you keep your mouth near the voice piece

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Okay, I'll try it like this but The experience of speaking in tongues and having the charismatic experience can be identified also

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Even in some other groups, they don't even claim to be Christian So it might have been the Hindu religion people who have the same kinds of phenomena going on These people don't believe in Christ.

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And so there needs to be more Understanding that what is really going on there is not enough to say.

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Okay. We have a common place a common Lord here we need to look at the essentials of the

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Bible of the Christian faith and understand as Martin Luther said that the article of the church stands or falls off and things like that need to be

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Taken into account when we're talking about these kind of things more than just looking at the experience Which I think may be the factor in some of these people's minds

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Yes, and well our topic today is not the Roman Catholic Church it is the perseverance and Preservation of the

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Saints and more specifically the theme of your book, which is

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Will I make it to heaven a new look at the perseverance of the Saints? And once again,

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I want to repeat our email address If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, it's CH RIS a

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RN Zen at gmail .com CH RIS a RN ze n at gmail .com

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That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the

22:40

USA One of the phrases I don't think that we mentioned during part one of our discussion on this is once saved always saved and I want to get your answer to the same question that I get a lot but if I am talking with or speaking with a

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Christian that typically believes you could lose your salvation They will say to me.

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Do you believe in once saved always saved and I will say well It depends on what you mean by that And then

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I say yes, I do believe that once a person is truly saved They are always saved, but I do not believe once a person thinks they're saved that they're necessarily

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Truly saved and therefore they don't they may not necessarily be always saved because they never were saved to begin with and I'll have to explain to them that a lot of Christians that use that phrase once saved always saved you will find that a lot amongst fundamentalist

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Baptists and other Christian groups who rightly believe that a true Christian cannot lose their salvation, but They will use that phrase which is also used by many people who have adopted a heretical understanding of salvation that is commonly nicknamed cheap grace or easy believism where once a person makes some kind of a profession of inviting

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Jesus into their heart and As long as they really mean it now Obviously a person can be deceived as to whether or not they really mean it

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But there are people who Think that they are becoming

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Christians because they are being told by those around them perhaps even a pastor or preacher You're saved now and once saved always saved if you ever doubt it.

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That's just the devil trying to tempt you into Doubting your salvation.

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So once saved always said now that that obviously is that that kind of a minimal way of Describing Security in Christ is a dangerous way, even though we believe in its core essence

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It's true. If you're talking about somebody who's truly born again. So how would you answer that question you believe in once saved always saved?

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Yes, I do I agree with you about this I believe that if you're truly saved you will be saved forever

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But I don't think that is the best way of expressing it depending on you're talking to that might really generate that kind of confusion

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I can recall very clearly when I was When I came out of the free will

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Baptist denomination where I was brought up and I joined the Southern Baptist I went on the visitation team or doing evangelism when we were visiting people who are coming to the church and I was with another person with me who was basically training me on how to do these visitations and We went to a person's home

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Who had shown up in church on a Sunday, but had not been to church for like 20 years and This person

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Began to talk about why they went to church They were concerned that their kids how their kids were being raised they felt their kids needed to have some kind of church influence in their life basically that was motivation and the person who was leaving the visit asked well

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Have you ever been saved the person said oh, yes I have and they she walked out and went in the other room and came back with a little card that showed that she had been made a profession of faith in a

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Baptist Church years ago is like over 20 years ago and She showed that and so this individual looked at the card and said oh, this is wonderful See, this is your spiritual birth certificate.

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So this guarantees that you are saved and this person had Had no interest in being the church for a long period of time

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I think that you know demonstrates how many times people have not understood What we intend to communicate when we say that there is security for the believer

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That's a very superficial way of looking at and that is dangerous because you can go around assuring people of salvation

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Who don't have fruit don't have evidence of salvation. That's that's not what we're going for. I think that's a misunderstanding.

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It's unfortunate There are churches that are teaching that now that's kind of a recent phenomena churches didn't teach that anywhere

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From anything that I was able to find in the research that I've done Let's say a hundred and fifty years ago.

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You wouldn't find that that was not the reformed belief That was not what Baptists thought that was not what evangelicals taught in any church

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There were people who thought that you could lose your salvation But people who are more in line with the

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Reformed theology thought no Christians don't lose their salvation But that kind of a superficial attachment to Christianity is not salvation

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That's not what we're talking about people like that aren't necessarily saved and so that's something that I think is really important and I Tried very much to communicate this reality in the book.

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The book is basically addressed to people who do not know for sure or are totally against the idea that The truth the truth saved the saints do persevere and that there is no loss of salvation that was basically the audience the target audience for this book and what

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I did is I I've read just about everything that I can get a hold of That's from the

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Arminian perspective that keeps that salvation can be lost and I've really tried to interact with these authors

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I've tried to be fair with them to really understand her position I held that position in the past and I think that it's very clear

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What goes on with most of these people they don't understand the reformed position and they usually react negatively this idea of once saved always saved exactly because they have

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Understood that in the way that some of these people have very superficially and so that is something to react against That is something to show concern about because that is dangerous.

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It can mislead people give people false assurance But of course the answer is not to say

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Okay then what happens is initially when you make that kind of a professional faith you do get saved and then you lose it as you grow cold

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Move away from church or lose interest in the spiritual things that is not really what's going on either and so That's a concern that we have.

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I think that the misunderstanding here is unfortunate because As I look back in history as I read the books that have come out through the centuries that address this everything from systematic theologies to Bible commentaries to specific doctrinal books the

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Christians have labored very hard to communicate What really is the doctrine of the

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Reformation? What really is the doctrine of doctrines of grace about perseverance and there have been many many

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Statements of faith even in doctrinal statements that make it clear that we're not teaching a kind of once saved always saved even for the people who have no fruit in their life, but Even so that message has not always gotten across and Sometimes I'm concerned that if we don't make that very clear and we convince people leave

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Oh, yes, a Christian can lose the salvation if we just talk about no We can't a Christian can't lose salvation and don't fill in the gaps about how that really works

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That what we can do is actually try to convince somebody to take a position. That's not really even we're trying to say

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I Can illustrate that if I imagine talking to somebody who doesn't believe in Christianity He doesn't believe in the

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Trinity. He says well, the Trinity is three gods. And so I don't believe in three gods I believe in one God and you say oh look

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Jesus is God and you show him biblical evidence for the claims of Christ and This that person well, he's it's time to be

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God and you don't clarify that actually we're talking about Because a

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Person could say okay, you convinced me. So I'm with you now and they would not convert to biblical

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Christianity They might come to try see is more they believe in three gods now And so that kind of a leap from one position to another

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We really want to avoid that when we talk about the security of the believer and perseverance of the same we want to make it clear that we're not teaching that a person can just Receive salvation without life transforming regeneration

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Without fruit that will continue throughout his life and the signs of new life making that person walk in and faithfulness and grow in and faithfulness without that kind of evidence and Teach people that that that can still that person is still saved and unconditionally saved

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Because at one point they made a profession of faith that would be Very unfortunate if people went from one position to the other along those lines

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In fact, we have to go to our break right now. And when we return I want you to Define even though you did this last time in part one.

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I want you to define what perseverance of the Saints is How it's been historically understood and of course most importantly

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How it is biblically to be understood and then after that I'd like you to go through some of the major The major Attempts at refuting this teaching that Armenians or non

32:41

Calvinists make and Show how they are being biblically Incorrect or inconsistent, etc.

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Okay, and if anybody would like to join us on the air we do have one Listener already waiting to have

32:58

The I'm not sure if it's a man or a woman because of the name it looks like an Asian name But we have a listener named and I'm sorry.

33:06

I'm probably gonna be mispronouncing your name, but Siki Lee In fact, let me read

33:13

Siki Lee's Question and when we come back from the break if you want to Send me a follow -up email

33:21

Siki with the correct pronunciation of your name if you want to send it to me phonetically

33:28

I will I will try to correct myself when we come back, but Our listener in a

33:35

Pinocchio Alberta, Canada, and I don't even know if I've pronounced Pinocchio correctly Pinocchio or Punica Hi, Chris and Daniel great show you mentioned people thinking they're saved and if you doubt it

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That's just the devil. What would you say to people who are doubting their faith?

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Some people struggle with assurance depression, etc. The list goes on. Thanks excellent excellent question and We'll have our guests

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Answer that question when we return from the break if anybody else would like to join that Listener our email address is

34:09

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com don't go away We will be right back after these messages from our sponsors with more of Daniel deeds and will

34:19

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Forward slash iron sharpens today Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am

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I now seeking the approval of man or of God? Or am I trying to please man if I were still trying to please man?

35:55

I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church We are a reformed

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Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist confession of faith of 1689 We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts We strive to reflect

36:09

Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

36:14

Than how men view these things? That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the

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Apostles priority It must not be ours either we believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and To be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth

36:35

And love if you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship

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Welcome back This is Chris Arnson if you just tuned in our guest today For the full two hours with 90 minutes approximately to go is

39:00

Daniel deeds And we are discussing part two of a discussion that we began last week

39:06

Will I make it? Will I make it to heaven a new look at the perseverance of the

39:11

Saints? Which is also the title of his new book published by Calvary Press If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is

39:18

Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com and before the break

39:23

I Read a question from one of our listeners in Panoka, Alberta, Canada Who just sent me an email with a correct pronunciation of the name?

39:33

I still don't know if it's a man or a woman Sorry that that wasn't that wasn't confirmed. But it

39:39

I was not only wrong in the pronunciation I was wrong on the the nation of origin.

39:45

It is a Dutch name mixed with a Canadian name So it is sick ah

39:51

Lee sick ah Lee from Panoka, Alberta, Canada and sick ah asked

40:00

You mentioned thinking you mentioned people thinking they're saved and if you doubt it, that's just the devil

40:06

What would you say to someone or two people who are doubting their faith? Some people struggle with assurance?

40:13

Depression, etc. The list could go on. Thanks. Well, that would obviously Depend a lot on the person you're talking to wouldn't it?

40:22

Yes, I believe that's true one of the things that you have to be very careful when you're

40:28

Speaking specifically to a person who's in doubt. You need to keep in mind that the doubt may be coming from the devil that is trying to get a true

40:37

Christian just to Paralyze him and his Christian walk and service to Christ to believe he's not saved and not forgiven on the other hand

40:46

There's also the reality that it might be the Holy Spirit is showing this person that he's had false profession of faith and he needs to really

40:57

Have a faith in Christ. It's something real and so talked about the issue of doubt

41:07

We're talking to and I would say this if we're talking to a person who has Truly come to faith in Christ and is struggling with doubt

41:16

His doubt will be not based on the idea that I I can see that I've lived a false life and I'm a

41:25

Sam. I'm not a true Christian. His doubt would be more along the lines of Okay, I know that my life has been transformed.

41:32

But am I really good enough? Am I a person who has come to? So the fruit of the

41:40

Spirit in a way that Demonstrates a genuine conversion and not a person who is just looking for a way to Appease his conscience and say yes

41:49

I know that there are things that I need to change in my life if I'm going to be biblical But I don't want to do that. I don't want to have my life any different from what

41:58

I am right now So I believe when the Holy Spirit is working convicting there will be a direction.

42:04

That's very clear This is what you need to do This has got to be changed.

42:10

You are not living a life According to the Word of God you're you're living in sin.

42:15

You're rebelling against Christ You need to repent that would be the Holy Spirit if we're talking to a person who really has

42:23

Nothing that he can say. Well, this is where I am still Resisting the Word of God. This is where I'm I'm not willing for for Christ to to lead me

42:33

But the person is saying actually What I want to do is serve

42:40

Christ and in every way that that I understand the Bible I am serving Christ and I'm still seeking to understand

42:46

God's will more in my life and do it But even so I'm not sure I think that would be more the symptoms of the devil trying to paralyze a person and not allow a person to enjoy security and Assurance that they can have but the issue of assurance

43:04

I think it's very personal and I don't think we can give a blanket statement that says, okay If you're in category a this is your case if you're in category

43:13

B I think that would involve a little bit more personal knowledge of each case and probably a best thing to do would be to seek counseling with a godly leader that has good biblical knowledge and a good basis to give advice and listen to the the kinds of personal

43:29

Questions and issues that are coming up in that individual's life. I wouldn't try to make a generalized statement along those lines

43:36

Yeah, let me in fact read some of the most chilling words of Scripture Coming from Matthew chapter 7 starting in verse 15

43:48

Beware of the false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing But inwardly are ravenous wolves.

43:54

You will know them by their fruits grapes are not gathered from Thornbushes nor figs from thistles are they so every good tree bears good fruit

44:03

But the bad tree bears bad fruit a good tree cannot produce bad fruit nor can a bad tree produce good fruit

44:10

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire

44:17

So then you will know them by their fruits not everyone who says to me

44:22

Lord Lord will enter The kingdom of heaven, but he does he who does the will of my father who is in heaven will enter

44:31

Many will say to me on that day Lord Lord did we not prophesy in your name and in your name cast out demons and in your name perform many miracles and Then I will declare to them.

44:44

I never knew you depart from me you who practice lawlessness quite a

44:51

Chilling passage because you have people there on Judgment Day expecting to be allowed entrance into heaven with Christ Because they believed in Christ they profess

45:03

Christ and even did all kinds of miraculous things in his name And isn't it interesting that Jesus never says to them you never did those things

45:10

And yet they were false professors and For the person who believes you could lose your salvation

45:19

Do we not have to point them to the fact that Jesus says at the conclusion of that passage that I read

45:25

I Never knew you he didn't say he never say I no longer know you

45:31

He said I never knew you so that means they were never saved Exactly. Yeah, that's not talking about people

45:39

You you're broken up brother. I didn't understand what you said. You just said that's not talking about people and then you got cut off Okay, I'm sorry, yeah that does not apply to people in the sense that these people got saved they were active in church

45:53

They kind of got backslidden and that was the reason that they'll now they are lost. They never were saved exactly

46:00

Well, uh, by the way Sika Lee or Sika, I'm sorry Sika Lee Just confirmed that he is a man a brother in Christ so Sika You since you live in Canada we cannot have

46:18

CV bbs .com ship you a free copy of Daniel Deeds's book because the offer for the free books to those submitting questions is only for those living in the

46:29

United States because of the post the postal cost of shipping to Canada and overseas so if you do know someone in the

46:39

United States that you would like us to ship this book to Or if you know somebody in the United States, so you want us to ship this book to who will ship it to you we could put your name on the

46:51

Address care of if you have a friend in the United States or perhaps a family member who will ship that to you

46:57

Once CV bbs .com ships it to them, but we I'm sorry We cannot ship it to anyone outside of the

47:03

United States because we have a lot of listeners in Canada and overseas who submit questions and the

47:09

The Costs would just mount up to an astronomical figure for CV bbs .com

47:15

to be shipping out books to non United States residents so if you could let us know of a

47:24

United States resident we can ship both the book to Will I make it to heaven and also?

47:33

Hello hello, are you there Daniel Deeds? Daniel Deeds are you there

47:39

Daniel Deeds got disconnected again for some reason? But anyway as I was saying to you sickly if You have a name that we can ship that to in the

47:49

United States. We will surely do that and They could they could ship it to you If if you'd like them to or if you want them to keep it, that's fine

47:57

Oh, yeah, I was also saying that you have won a free New American Standard Bible That we will include in that shipment to your

48:04

United States resident friend or family member So let us know with a with an email

48:11

Thank you for calling back. I don't know what's happening Daniel with our connection, but this is the second time. Yeah but if you could

48:20

Let us know what you mean by perseverance of the Saints and as it is also Historically known as perseverance and preservation of the

48:29

Saints. What do you mean by that? Okay The Saints I think that we find that very clearly stated in the

48:37

New Empire Baptist Confession of Faith that was from 1833 when Baptists in America Formulated a doctrinal statement that churches adopted most

48:49

Baptist churches adopted this at that time The statement says on the perseverance of the

48:54

Saints. We believe that only such That such only our real believers as endure and to the end that they're persevering attachment to Christ is the ground the ground mark which distinguishes them from superficial professors that a special providence watches over their their welfare and They are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation

49:27

What you find in this particular statement is that there's a mark when somebody is truly saved when there's a true believer that this person will

49:36

Persevere people who profess to be Christians and then do not persevere do not continue in faith in Christ Those people are superficial and they're not that truly saved

49:48

And so there's a special providence of God that watches and cares for believers Do not allow them to be taken away doctrine by Return to a life of deliberate sin and these things we believe are marks of God's operating grace in the person's life

50:05

So I think that statement very well in a few words the perseverance of the

50:10

Saints is a Reality by the grace of God in the case of every person who is truly saved we can call it preservation

50:17

Because of course God is the one who acts and he preserves his people

50:23

We don't do our part to get him to acknowledge that by then giving us grace

50:29

Grace is what God gives us to bring about our conversion initially our faith in Christ initially and then of course our perseverance in faith and Our walk and perseverance all the way to the end

50:43

These things are the result and not the cause of God's accepting us when

50:48

God gives us his grace He brings about a perseverance also These things are distinguishing marks that make a clear difference in some circumstances.

50:56

You see people Falling away and not having an interest in persevering in Christ and you then realize okay, then that was a superficial faith

51:05

It was not a work of the Holy Spirit when God begins the work God also finishes the work and We have a listener

51:17

Robert in Westchester County, New York who asks

51:24

Can a Christian that does not hold to all for all five points of Calvinism?

51:31

logically and consistently believe in perseverance and preservation of the Saints as some do

51:39

There are those who actually believe that a

51:44

True Christian must demonstrate repentance in order for it to be deemed a genuine faith

51:50

But they deny the other points of Calvinism to me It makes no sense because if they are still clinging to libertarian free will

52:00

They cannot really deny The fact that a person with a free will could choose

52:09

To leave the faith that they once claimed it seems to be absurd and nonsensical for someone to agree with us on the area of Perseverance and yet deny the rest of the points of Calvinism that includes total depravity which of course as you know means that man's will is totally depraved and incapable of pleasing

52:35

God Unless they are already regenerate if you could comment on this it would truly help clarify matters with friends that I Dialogue with over this issue and we will have you respond to that if you could

52:50

When we return from our break and by the way, Daniel, I'm going to I'm going to email you a different phone number

52:58

That that you can call Because I think that this may may clear up some of our

53:04

Technical issues with your With your phone connection

53:10

So I am I am sending you an email in about 30 seconds.

53:16

So keep your eye open for that email So if anybody else wants to join us, our email address is

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Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors

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Monday. Will I make it to heaven a new look at the perseverance of the Saints? We just have a couple of important announcements to make

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01:10:49

Daniel deeds on will I go to heaven? Will I make it to heaven? That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

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Daniel before the break we had Robert in Westchester County who basically wants to know if Believing in perseverance of the

01:11:22

Saints makes any sense if you deny any of the other points of Calvinism Well, that's actually very interesting because I think what that points out is that there is inconsistency

01:11:36

When people don't hold to a system that actually fits in with each other

01:11:41

With all the points it can with each other. I think that's true with most of us we probably all are a little bit inconsistent in in since that as We grow in our understanding of the

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Bible Realized that some ideas that we had were were not Didn't make sense that were not biblical and then when we look back we say well

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I should have seen that before that didn't make any sense with what I believed already But as we grow we understand that more and I think that that's definitely true

01:12:12

Those are grace and things along that line if you read for instance somebody like John Wesley He says some things that are just wonderful about the nest the need for God's grace to to save people

01:12:25

He understood depravity. He did not believe in partial depravity then again

01:12:31

He goes into contradiction with that with some of the other statements that he makes and so if you look at it from a point of view that We tend to be inconsistent until we're confronted with positive biblical teaching that really brings us out of our

01:12:46

Contradiction and makes us become more coherent in this way that we systematize our thoughts. I think that's what people really go through and You know the first day somebody tells you look salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone and you say yes, okay

01:13:03

I believe that that doesn't mean that you've understood how it works out and all the ramifications that that will bring into all the areas of theology it's going to be necessary to think that through and Reread the

01:13:16

Bible over and over with an open mind and apply the biblical texts in different areas

01:13:23

What that means and what that brings to bear on the doctrine of salvation? Until we really get a grasp on a lot of the things and you know

01:13:31

We grow as we as we learn more, but it's definitely inconsistent to believe that now on the other hand

01:13:38

It's also a danger to not be consistent because every time somebody is not consistent

01:13:45

That opens the door for them also to drift and I believe what we're happy what we're seeing happen

01:13:51

With some people is that they don't become Clear on some of these issues.

01:13:56

They leave doors open Misunderstandings to just grow and their perception of the Bible and I've heard people who believe that you know salvation is reversible work with people that already believe that salvation begins through a

01:14:11

Decision of free will and they'll say no what happens to the person's free will after they get saved you saying that To begin with a person can make a decision out of their own free will and then

01:14:23

God takes away their free will they can't Reverse that and people will think about that for a little bit and say yeah

01:14:28

Well, maybe there could be loss of salvation And so that's definitely leaving a door open for people to even lose the perception

01:14:36

Of the permanence of salvation that they are to profess if they believe that and so it's necessary to be consistent necessary to be doctrinally precise, but the way

01:14:47

I look at people who Understand that salvation is by grace and they believe that and they don't see how it all works out

01:14:55

I believe there's just a need there for a growing understanding and Actually looking at how grace operates in each one of these areas

01:15:04

Looking at the fact that yes, we persevere by grace and perseverance is assured to every true believer

01:15:10

But it's also true that we believe initially by grace. It's not something that is

01:15:17

Just a test that God gives humans and says look nobody's good enough. I'm going to lower the standard just do this and I'll give you salvation as a reward if you can be at least this good and then somebody comes along and does it and Does what

01:15:32

God is requiring as a lower secondary? Entry level standard and says, okay.

01:15:38

I'm in now. That's not how salvation works. It's grace It's grace from beginning to end. And so when people don't understand that and don't

01:15:47

See the connection of that people are open to this kind of misunderstanding and it's definitely an inconsistency but what

01:15:55

I would suggest working with people who believe at least in some points of the doctrines of grace is to reinforce those things and get people to look at those more closely and understand why that's true and Then say look the same principles are also true about other aspects of salvation

01:16:12

Look, it's God that keeps us by his grace, but it's also God who converts us initially

01:16:19

It's God who produces faith in our heart by a work of the Holy Spirit It's not our initiative.

01:16:26

It's God's in this initiative and it's God's grace that opens our eyes He changes our heart

01:16:31

He removes the heart of stone so that then we can actually have a receptive attitude towards the gospel if God doesn't do that first It's just hearing the gospel is not going to go anywhere.

01:16:42

And if we can work at it from that end I would really hope that we could preserve the

01:16:47

Elements that are still present because a lot of historic churches have their roots in reformed theology and they've drifted in piece by piece people have been working to Dismantle the understanding of grace and so if there's still some elements there that can still be preserved.

01:17:03

I think that's important, too amen, and If you in fact,

01:17:10

I know of a pastor and of course, I actually know more than one pastor, but There is a specific pastor

01:17:18

I'm thinking of who agrees with Calvinists on the very important issue that repentance is necessary for salvation he deplores easy believism and cheap grace and yet he also deplores unconditional election and limited atonement and irresistible grace and He he thinks that if you remove libertarian free will from humans that makes them robots and What I have said to him is so you think someone becomes a robot after they're saved.

01:17:52

I mean, I don't understand why Why he would agree with us That a true

01:17:58

Christian will demonstrate the fruits of repentance throughout the entirety of their lives until they are in glory with Christ why he would agree with that and Yet somehow not see that that is inconsistent with his understanding of free will and so so while we rejoice

01:18:20

That some of our non Calvinist brothers and sisters in Christ Agree with us on repentance, which is the most important thing.

01:18:28

They are more inconsistent they're more inconsistent than the full -blown five -point

01:18:33

Arminian or the even the person that Sadly and tragically believes in the heresy of easy believism and cheap grace because they believe

01:18:43

That someone by their freedom of will can abandon the truth, but they will believe tragically that that person will remain saved and is truly saved and We can expect them to be in heaven even if they live like Satan for the entirety of their lives and Even tragically someone as beloved as Charles Stanley Had that included in his book on eternal security but in fact one of my modern -day heroes

01:19:16

John MacArthur came to believe in the five points of Calvinism, but when he first believed in Lordship salvation

01:19:27

He was Still a non Calvinist, but he I believe recognized the inconsistency of that, but if you could

01:19:35

Let before we go to any more listener questions, and by the way, Robert, you've won a free copy of the book

01:19:40

We are just discussing will I make it to heaven? So please give us your full mailing address If you could give us some of the major arguments that you sought to overcome by those who are opposed

01:19:52

To the doctrine known as perseverance of the Saints Okay. Yes.

01:19:57

Well the people who are scared basically of the idea of perseverance of the

01:20:02

Saints and the And the security of the believer in Christ are Worried that this will create a license to sin and that's one of the big things that people will emphasize the fact that look the

01:20:15

Bible Teaches the need to persevere and they will be very correct in showing that the

01:20:21

Bible does say The people who make it to heaven are the people who go all the way the people who believe in Christ and continue to believe

01:20:27

In Christ and as they make that point Really they're fighting an enemy that we would agree with that That's not the right way

01:20:36

The idea is that you can be saved and not persevere and continue saved we would agree with that And so some of their some of their guns are aimed at a common enemy

01:20:46

I would say and at the same time they need to realize that there are not just two positions it's not just you can be saved and lost again, or you can be saved and Never be lost even though you might cease to believe in Christ.

01:21:01

Those are not the two positions there's also the position that says Salvation is permanent because the transformation of the heart of the new

01:21:09

Christian is permanent and God will lead you all the way to Salvation and so the two final salvation

01:21:16

I should say initially saved by faith through Christ and being justified all the way to glorification

01:21:22

And so that's one of the things that we need to Understand that some of the arguments that are used are not arguments that we have any objection to I think at that point

01:21:31

We need to clarify that and show people look Consider this there is not only this position and this other position there's also a third position which is really the historic position of the

01:21:41

Christian Church all the way back to the church fathers and When people are trying to show that the warnings against apostasy

01:21:50

Meaning that there is a danger of losing salvation. I think there's a very precarious in that approach because to the closing of the passages in the

01:22:00

Bible that talk about the need for perseverance, that talk about the need for continuing in Christ a lot of those passages that will be cited by Our minions that are trying to say look you can't lose your salvation.

01:22:14

Come and look at these texts with me. A lot of those texts Are so clear Brother you are breaking up really badly again.

01:22:23

You're gonna have to stay close to the mouthpiece of whatever you're speaking into Sorry, you're just really becoming muffled and inaudible.

01:22:31

So if you could repeat your last sentence, I'm sorry Sure. Okay, so When people are looking at these passages of the

01:22:39

Bible that talk about the need for perseverance The fact that you need to stay in Christ that you need to be faithful to the end those texts as Arguments that there is the chance of the possibility of a true

01:22:54

Christian falling away from the faith and being eternally lost But these people sometimes are doing is they're using tech

01:23:01

They actually go against their belief and they don't even look at it because they look at it as only two alternatives either a person may believe in Christ and continue faith or a person will

01:23:16

Need to persevere to the end which means a true Christian can be lost if he doesn't

01:23:22

And if we look at these passages, I'd like to read a few of them and I'd like to draw out what the passages truly say and I think it's clear once you realize that the

01:23:30

Doctrine that we're presenting is not the easy -to -believe -ism kind of thing once saved always saved regardless of faith in Christ and perseverance

01:23:39

John chapter 8 verse 31 says So Jesus said to the

01:23:46

Jews who had believed in him if you abide in my word

01:23:52

You are truly my disciples. That's John 8 31 See in that passage people bring this out and say look

01:23:59

Jesus said if you abide in my word You're truly my disciples. If you don't abide if you don't continue then you won't make it to heaven and The part that is not really noticed when that emphasis is brought out

01:24:12

Is that Jesus didn't say if you Abide in my word

01:24:19

You will continue to be my disciples but he said is if you abide in my word you are my disciples and see that presupposes the fact that If you are now a disciple

01:24:31

You will abide in the future if you don't abide in the future It doesn't mean that you will cease to be what it means is that right now even now

01:24:40

You are not truly a disciple and it's very similar to what was what we mentioned earlier about Matthew chapter 7 where Jesus said

01:24:48

I never knew you that's a emphasis that sometimes is overlooked And that happens in several of these passages.

01:24:53

Let me read another passage in Hebrews chapter 3 Verses 6 and verse 14 very interesting passages.

01:25:00

Here's what Hebrews 3 says But Christ is faithful over God's house as a son

01:25:09

We are his house if indeed We hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope

01:25:19

See that passage is We are Christians we are the house of God the house of Christ if we hold fast our confidence

01:25:28

So what happens if in the future we don't hold fast? What does that show? Well, it doesn't show that we can cease to be the house of Christ It shows that at the present at the moment when this verse is speaking

01:25:39

We are not the house of Christ because if we are the house of Christ, we will hold fast to the end Also Hebrews 3 14 says so we share in Christ we share in the present

01:25:50

If indeed we hold our original confidence firm To the end see in passages like that what the

01:25:58

Bible is really saying It's not that true Christians can be saved now and then not hold fast and not hold firm to the end

01:26:05

And become lost what the Bible is saying is that we share now presently in Christ if we hold

01:26:13

Firm to the end. So that is exactly our doctrine That's exactly the reformed position the idea that true saints do persevere

01:26:21

And so it's really unfortunate that people will look at these passages and all they'll glean from them is the fact that those who don't persevere

01:26:30

Will not be in heaven without noticing that it's also saying that those who Don't persevere are not presently in Christ.

01:26:38

And that is really the the thrust of these passages now When we speak about the need to persevere in these terms

01:26:47

I think it's comparable to the way that we speak when we're talking about how can you tell if this is genuine?

01:26:54

Let's say we're talking about a diamond. Somebody shows up with a diamond. They believe it's a diamond

01:26:59

They're not really sure and they say could you test this and see if this is a real a real diamond? Okay, the person might look at that.

01:27:06

Okay. Well, let's do a test here. I'll tell you what we're going to see If this if this stone of yours cuts the glass

01:27:14

Then it's a real diamond. I'm not sure that that's a perfect test for for Jules But anyway, that's let's say that we're doing it that way and then he takes it and it doesn't work and he can realize that the

01:27:27

Zone is not an authentic diamond. He won't take that back to the person handed to the person and say well

01:27:33

I'm sorry, it didn't pass the test. This is no longer a diamond What he will say is no the test

01:27:40

Brought out the fact that it wasn't a diamond to begin with and that's exactly what these passages are saying

01:27:46

That people who do not persevere to the end are shown to not have been the house of God From the beginning did not have been true disciples of Christ from the beginning because in the case of true conversion

01:27:58

There's working of God within the person and he who began a good work and you will continue to Perform it until the day of Christ.

01:28:06

And so the true Christian is actually Preserved in person and perseveres therefore by the grace of God And so that's one of the main ways that people argue to try to undo the doctrine of the saints and they use these passages without really being very

01:28:23

Attentive to the way that they make their make their case Well, I've got the perfect title for your sequel to your book will

01:28:31

I make it to heaven how about glass Christians versus diamond Christians Okay, but we have to go to our final break right now

01:28:41

It's gonna be very brief Sure If anybody else would like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:28:47

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01:28:53

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01:35:01

Forward slash iron sharpens today. Welcome back This is Chris Arns and if you just tuned us in our guest has been for the last 90 minutes and the next 25 minutes or so to come

01:35:12

Daniel deeds and we are discussing part two of will I make it to heaven a new look at the perseverance of the

01:35:18

Saints a Discussion that we began last week and if you'd like to join us on the air Send in a question now or forever hold your peace because we're rapidly running out of time

01:35:28

Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com and we have an anonymous listener

01:35:35

Daniel who says you keep repeating these five points of Calvinism I know I've heard that slogan before But can you please at least list these five points so I can understand in some way the context from which you are speaking

01:35:47

Okay, we have total depravity, which means that man is

01:35:53

Totally depraved not that he is depraved as he could be because even because of God's merciful restraint

01:36:00

The worst of men are not as bad as they they can be God even restrains the most evil of people even

01:36:09

Hitler had his evil restrained to some measure but that means that God that Man in by his nature after the fall of Adam cannot please

01:36:20

God through anything they think believe or do because they are bound to their sinful flesh and only desire to please themselves and to act in disobedience to God an unconditional election means that God chose before the foundation of the world those

01:36:37

He desired to elect that had nothing to do with his foreseeing any

01:36:43

Future faith or any good work that they might do limited atonement Means that the number of people for whom

01:36:51

God died or for whom Christ died on Calvary The the number of people were limited to the number of the elect

01:36:59

But the power of that atonement is unlimited which is why every single person for whom

01:37:04

Christ Died will be saved with certainty irresistible grace means that Ultimately every person who is among the elect will be drawn to a saving knowledge of Christ and Perseverance of the

01:37:21

Saints is what we are discussing today that spells out the acronym tulip Do you have anything to add to that that I may have missed or misstated?

01:37:30

Daniel oh, that's a very good statement. That's a very good statement to me. Okay, how I see it as well

01:37:36

Right and they are really Links in a chain that can't be broken if you are to understand

01:37:43

Logically and consistently major truths of the scripture even including what we are talking about today whether or not

01:37:49

Someone you could lose someone can lose their salvation like for instance even limited atonement or definite atonement or particular redemption if for instance

01:38:01

God knows Who his elect are and who will be in heaven with him for eternity?

01:38:07

Why would he be dying for the sins of people he knows will be in hell, isn't that an inconsistency?

01:38:15

Yes, that's truly an inconsistency, I believe that the whole concept of sins being paid for in full by Christ is

01:38:26

Something that when we really understand what it means for Expiation to take place that that really makes a difference

01:38:32

The atonement that Christ makes if we understand what that really means we'll understand that There's a very specific intent and the death of Christ on the cross

01:38:42

It works together with all the other points the understanding that salvation is God's work It's grace of the grace of God that brings about our salvation

01:38:51

Right, and we believe as reformed Christians that Christ died even for the sin of unbelief so Because other

01:39:00

Christians who to denounce limited atonement They say that they will say that Christ died for every sin typically for everybody

01:39:11

But what about the sin of unbelief wouldn't that really? conclude in the the doctrine of full -blown

01:39:18

Universalism where everyone will be saved if most people who reject limited atonement and Reject other points or all the points of Calvinism don't even realize that their their theology will should actually eventually lead them to full -blown

01:39:37

Universalism as it did with a well -known

01:39:42

Pentecostal Who I am? going I'm going to be doing a a

01:39:51

Program at some point God willing Reviewing the movie come

01:39:57

Sunday And that's about a well -known

01:40:04

Pentecostal pastor who was a graduate of Oral Roberts University who?

01:40:13

Began his ministry believing in The fact that that those who reject

01:40:20

Christ will be in hell But he but he eventually came to embrace full -blown

01:40:27

Universalism His name is Carlton Pearson Yeah, he came to believe in full -blown

01:40:37

Universalism because not only because of a Voice from God an extra biblical voice from God that he claims he heard

01:40:46

But also because of biblical texts that Armenians use all the time But he used them actually correctly

01:40:55

In an Arminian understanding I mean if you're gonna interpret many of these passages that have universal language in the

01:41:03

Bible like world and all and so on as Always to mean every single person when it comes to the death of Christ, and you really should be a universalist

01:41:11

Not that anybody ever should be a universalist, but but I think that he was more logically consistent with an

01:41:17

Arminian Hermeneutic For universal atonement yes so That's the risk

01:41:27

I believe If I may just that's the risk I believe that we have when there is inconsistency.

01:41:32

It's just like the open theism question when people start having this kind of Inconsistent perspective about theological issues.

01:41:42

It's very dangerous for that to become an open door to just drift away from orthodoxy Yep, and By the way, thank you anonymous.

01:41:52

Give us your full name. Of course off the air. We will not divulge or Expose your name you've requested to be anonymous

01:42:01

So if you'd like to give me your full name off the air and your full mailing address You have also won a free copy of will

01:42:10

I make it to heaven by our guest Daniel deeds? That will be shipped out to you by CV BBS comm

01:42:15

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01:42:22

Let's see here we have CJ and from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York who asks is there any real danger?

01:42:35

Behind believing that you can lose your salvation. I can understand the danger behind one believing that a

01:42:45

Person living in unrepentant satanic life will go to heaven Even though I'm a

01:42:51

Calvinist. I recognize that is a very dangerous and heretical teaching but tell us specifically how understanding the scriptures

01:43:00

To teach that you can lose your salvation is actually dangerous, even if it's incorrect Well, I believe that we really do have some dangers in this and the basic danger is that it begins to tip away at the understanding of grace a grace is such an important concept and it goes against our natural way of thinking and We need to preserve that Really at you know at a very high price if we lose the understanding of how grace operates in salvation

01:43:30

We start believing that it's what we do. You know, God looks at us like we're on some kind of a probation

01:43:37

We have to prove ourselves worthy and if we don't do a very good job We can lose our salvation if that kind of thinking permeates our mind

01:43:44

We can really get away from the idea that salvation is by grace in a fundamental way

01:43:49

I think that this is all about being consistent with the idea that salvation is by grace

01:43:55

Alone, and I've talked to a lot of people who believe that Salvation can be lost and they will say no.

01:44:02

I believe in salvation by grace alone and When we really begin to you know, flesh that out and see what we're talking about we always run into the fact that that really hasn't been understood and how it applies in this point and when we lose an

01:44:18

Emphasis on God's grace being what really saves us what we begin to do is we start getting away from a very central core

01:44:26

Christian doctrine and So I would be very Ready to say that you know our minions can you know many

01:44:34

Armenians are our brothers in Christ and I don't have the view that unless you embrace all five points of Calvinism.

01:44:40

You haven't become a Christian I don't believe that I believe that you can understand the gospel in a very

01:44:47

Limited way and become saved by God's grace, but then you know, you should grow in that understanding

01:44:53

But in reality What goes on is that when you talk to a lot of the people who are on this side of the other side of this?

01:45:00

Issue you'll begin to realize that there really are some issues that they have not Understood and they tend to make grace become less and less important and in the

01:45:13

Perspective of Christianity. I'd like to read a couple of quotes from a book just to show you

01:45:19

What kind of thing that scares me and in churches where this kind of theology predominates

01:45:26

There's a book written by an author called guide duty and he has this statement he says

01:45:31

God gave Abraham an everlasting covenant and an everlasting kingdom because He obeyed

01:45:39

God's covenant conditions God also gives us an eternal covenant of life if we do the works of Abraham Okay.

01:45:48

No, this is a coming from an author who's in an Armenian Church He's not, you know saying he's

01:45:53

Pelagian and he's not saying that he's you know, Roman Catholic If you say look salvation is by grace, it's not through works, he'll say oh no definitely

01:46:02

I agree salvation is not through works but when he begins to explain what he really means things start coming out that are a real concern and I think that church history stands as a lesson that when grace is

01:46:16

Depreciated within our understanding and we stop understanding that it's God's grace that that saves us

01:46:22

It's God's grace that keeps us. It's God's grace that converts us initially If we don't understand how this works

01:46:29

What happens is we tend to go down a slope where grace becomes less and less important less emphasized and less understood

01:46:36

And I think there really is a danger, you know, I've talked to two people within this

01:46:43

Perspective that salvation can be lost that are really looking at their own works as the means to keep them safe Sometimes they won't would they won't say in those terms, of course, but what they will say is things like oh, no

01:46:55

I have to be good. I have to perform because if I don't What will happen is my faith will become corrupted and I'll end up losing my salvation

01:47:05

Instead of looking at God as the source of everything many times what they're really doing Unwittingly, that's what they're doing is they're turning their eyes upon themselves and saying, okay

01:47:16

It not only depends on me But actually I'm the one who is doing this

01:47:23

I'm the one who is making sure that I get to heaven and That's very unfortunate.

01:47:29

I think that when we read the Bible we see that the gifts that God gives his people He also has makes a big point a big issue of the fact that we have to give him the glory for that and if we don't

01:47:44

Underscore the fact that God's grace is doing this for us. We really allow the the glory of God to be

01:47:53

To go unrecognized and what he is doing for us And I think that that opens up a lot of problems for the church.

01:47:59

I think that there's a reality that a lot of the pragmatism that we have in the church today a lot of the things that are done just from the perspective of how can we

01:48:10

Bring people into the church just by using human methods and not understanding the way that the

01:48:16

Spirit works to convert people and that it's a The work of the grace of God, I think things like that have a tendency to be

01:48:24

Also a problem when we run into this kind of an issue that people will

01:48:31

Frequently start thinking in terms of okay. I've got to do this. It depends on me and In the end, they also start thinking.

01:48:38

Okay, I've done my part I think I kind of deserve this instead of really understanding that it all came from God It all came from grace.

01:48:44

And so I think there is a real danger in that Yes, there is It's always a danger when we give

01:48:52

More credit to man and less credit to God for any blessing, especially salvation

01:48:59

And that that leads to all kinds of heresies and is in and of itself heresy

01:49:07

We have Bobby in Hartsdale, New York who says Or asks do all free will

01:49:15

Baptists believe you could lose your salvation now I don't know if Bobby is referring to the denomination that you used to believe in or to Baptists in general who believe in free will

01:49:24

But obviously we know that many Baptists who believe in free will believe in quote quote eternal security

01:49:31

But how about the denomination? Right. Well the free will

01:49:36

Baptist denomination has different views about how you can lose salvation But it's the point that if you're going to be in the denomination you have to agree with that There is a possibility of a

01:49:46

Christian losing his salvation the predominant view I'm not really sure what it might be some people believe that it might be from backsliding and being in sin falling into Deliberate sin you're you're lost and you have to repent to get saved again

01:50:00

I know some people who do believe that but a lot of other people also believe that no salvation is a one -time thing

01:50:06

You only lose it if you commit complete apostasy where you turn your back on faith in Christ and renounce faith in Christ And then that would be a one -time thing

01:50:14

But in one way or another you have to believe that within the free will Baptist denomination Now do the does the denomination?

01:50:24

Are there any at least significant people spokesmen for that denomination who believe in In Easy believism it would seem to be contradictory to that but But since you said there are different reasons

01:50:43

That they list or they disagree with each other on how you can lose your salvation Does any of them do any of them hold to an easy believism?

01:50:51

I? Don't believe so. I never ran into that within the free will Baptist denomination, and I know quite a few people so I really believe that you know, they do teach you have to be serious about repenting of your sin and coming to Christ and living a faithful life and A lot of the message that they teach when they're preaching the gospel to unbelievers

01:51:11

They will you know tell people you have to renounce your sin You have to believe in Christ for salvation. And so the easy believers in part where you can just you know very easily without any kind of Repentance at all just make a profession of faith and get salvation like that I don't think that that's something that you really find among free will

01:51:30

Baptist Please give us your full name and address

01:51:35

Bobby in Hartstall, New York because you have also won a free copy of will I make it to heaven and CV bbs .com

01:51:43

will ship that out to you once we have your full mailing address we have Joe in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York who says how would you comfort a person?

01:51:56

who is perhaps near death and struggling over Confidence that they are saved without Giving them false assurance.

01:52:06

What would you ask them and tell them to make sure that when you are giving them encouragement and comfort?

01:52:13

That you are not falsely doing so to a reprobate Well, if I don't know the person enough to be able to make any kind of a judgment on that I would address them in terms of Well, no matter what may have happened or may not have happened in the past You can believe in Christ now if that's something that you have any doubt about So if you could say

01:52:39

I'm not sure if I've ever really been a Christian. Well, you can take the approach Well right now

01:52:44

I'm going to trust in Christ I think I would take it along those lines because there are wonderful promises in the book in the

01:52:50

Bible for salvation for those who trust in Christ and Christ alone those who renounce their sin who repent of their sin and If that message is believed at this point if that's the continuation of a true faith that has been there and the person's just maybe having a moment of insecurity realizing that They're they're departing this world and now it really comes to bear upon them and if they feel some kind of insecurity

01:53:18

But they are saved it wouldn't harm them in the least to just affirm that they do believe in Christ That they do have faith in Christ alone on the other hand if they have never been saved

01:53:30

It's also a reality that a very sober moment like that may be used by God just to bring them to Realize the importance of their salvation and God's Spirit may be working in their heart so that they would believe at that moment as well

01:53:46

Please give us your full mailing address Joe so we can have cvbbs .com send you a free copy of will

01:53:52

I make it to heaven? We have another listener in Suffolk County Christopher who asks

01:53:59

Among the free will Baptist denomination Are there any prominent people or pastors that you are aware of who are actually full -blown?

01:54:08

Pelagianists Well, there are some

01:54:14

Pelagians in the denomination. I don't think that they're important people. I think this the schools the

01:54:20

Bible colleges and seminaries have done a very good job at Promoting to teaching positions and to promoting the literature

01:54:29

And in their denomination by people who are more biblical more responsible and that would line up with classic

01:54:35

Arminianism, and so I don't believe that we really see people in prominent positions like that But there there have been some and I think that you'll run into some in local churches one of the things that really concerns me about Arminian churches is that Frequently they will

01:54:51

Try very hard to make sure that people Reject Calvinism and they'll talk against Calvinism But they won't talk against Pelagianism and some of the members won't even know what

01:55:01

Pelagianism is and they might actually be Pelagian Without even knowing that there's a risk or a danger in that area because there's no teaching about that And I think that's very unfortunate and if they in a room, yes

01:55:16

But if they really Agree with us that Pelagianism is a heresy and it's very serious

01:55:23

Then there ought to be at least the same emphasis given to prevent that kind of doctrine being spread but there have been even pastors with that kind of a perspective and I think that that's a sad thing and Pelagianism would be a denial of the sinful nature of man that men are conceived basically sinless and That grace

01:55:46

Although is a help it is not required for come to a saving one It is not required for one to come to a saving knowledge of Christ.

01:55:54

Am I right on that? Yes, well, you'll see Pelagianism where people don't really believe in depravity people believe that the human free will is people are born into this world with the potential to live their life without ever sinning because all they have to do is make the right choices they don't have a bent in their

01:56:14

Sinful nature that they're born with it will lead them to sin. So people don't believe that we're sinners because We they'll believe that we only become sinners by sinning the first time in our life not because we're born to sin

01:56:27

That would be Pelagianism and sometimes you run into that kind of thing. I've never Confronted that personally.

01:56:32

I know people who have They're the we're sinners by nurture not by nature, right?

01:56:40

Right exactly and I think most of them would admit at least that they have never met someone who is a

01:56:47

Sinless person. They just believe it's hypothetically possible, right? Yeah, but I think it also comes out when people take the position that all you have to do is really work hard and Really decide that you're going to be serious about the

01:57:00

Christian life and you can live a life of sinless perfection Like I knew a man who once said that he had been 15 years

01:57:05

Without sinning and I think that that you know shows a very shallow understanding of sin

01:57:12

That statement itself was a sin because it was a lie Yes, no, no that no doubt, but that's just the kind of thing that that comes from a

01:57:22

Pelagian view of human nature It's unfortunate. Yeah, and you have about a minute to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today

01:57:32

Okay Well the the whole point of the the book that I've written is about The importance of grace and understanding grace and giving the glory to God I understand the concern that sometimes people who disagree with me have when they're concerned about Not allowing for sin to reign in people's lives and giving false assurance that that's something

01:57:54

I can understand But we're also concerned about putting the glory where it should be and giving it to God and understanding that God is the one who saves from start to finish and the biblical precision on that needs to be maintained and so I would just Encourage people to consider that to go back to the

01:58:11

Bible and notice that God's grace is responsible for our salvation in every aspect for calling our original belief in Christ and our

01:58:21

Maintaining our faith by persevering that happens as a result of God's preserving grace

01:58:27

Well, praise God if anybody wants to purchase the book will I make it to heaven a new look at the perseverance of the

01:58:33

Saints Published by Calvary Press you can go to CV bbs .com our sponsors

01:58:39

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV bbs .com and you can order it there if they don't have it in stock

01:58:46

They will order it for you. But in fact, I believe a Patty Jennings told me they do have it in stock so go to CV bbs .com

01:58:55

and Order it today any other contact information that you care to give? Well, I'd leave my email.

01:59:03

That'd be the easiest way since I'm in Brazil My email is like my name Daniel D. But Daniel with two

01:59:10

L's Daniel L D DEDF at Gmail .com

01:59:17

and you can contact me like that if you'd like to respond with me over any issue Great and tomorrow we have

01:59:23

Ken Ham Speaking about his new book gospel reset salvation made relevant and dr.

01:59:29

F Lagarde Smith Speaking about his book Darwin's secret sex problem.

01:59:34

That's tomorrow and I interpret Zion radio I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater