March 7, 2018 Show with Daniel Deeds on “Will I Make it to Heaven? A New Look at the Perseverance of the Saints” (Part 2)

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron. So one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now, here's our host Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron Radio .com. This is Chris Arnz and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Monday on the 7th day of May 2018.

I am sorry for the delay in broadcast Broadcasting I should say today because we were testing new new software at first love radio and it wasn't matching up with the software here and Carlisle, Pennsylvania where I am broadcasting from so we had to revert back to our old practice of Broadcasting and I am sorry for that delay, but we will be on the air for a full two hours nonetheless.

But regardless of that I am delighted to have back on the program today Daniel Deeds who received his BA in theology at Randall University in Moore, Oklahoma he's the son of American missionaries to Brazil church planter and pastor at Igreja Batista Historica, and of course, we will once again have that corrected that Portuguese accent correction corrected and He is the director of The historic Baptist Theological Institute and board member of the Reformed Baptist Convention of Brazil.

He is a published author and today we are addressing part two of a discussion. We began last Monday Will I make it to heaven a new look at the perseverance of the Saints and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio Daniel Deeds.

Well, thank you. It's an honor to be here and I appreciate you giving me another opportunity to be on your wonderful program.

I really appreciate it Daniel and let me give our email address for those Wanting to join us on the air with questions of your own. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris ar n z e n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the USA and Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Before we go into the topic there are no doubt going to be a number of listeners Today who are discovering you for the very first time. So why don't you let us know something about the church? Were you a pastor in Brazil?

Sure. Yes, we are in a city of about 120 ,000 people in Brazil and a region that very Very small number of evangelical church is proportional to the population and that's where we've started the church.

We've planted a church and we have two congregations that we're working on getting two more churches started in neighboring cities in the city. Where we are we are the Reformed theology. There are with reformed theology, but that has not really been their emphasis and it's not something they really They really call for and so that might.

Brother, you're you're getting muffled with your voice again. Is there anything that you got to make sure you keep your mouth close to the mouthpiece of whatever you're using?

Sure, let me see if I could do it like this. See if that helps. Okay, and you could continue. I'm sorry. Yes. Well, but we're in a Not very much missionary work has been done. But some has been done that there are.

You know some evangelical churches, but it's one of the according to the Brazilian government statistics it's the part of Brazil that has the portion of evangelicals with a mission that we have to be there and and Carry the gospel to that part of the country and the Lord is really blessed in the last few years.

We've seen significant growth. We've seen the church become stable and we're able now to reach out to other communities and we're starting new churches in new cities where again, we don't have. We don't have very many churches that would have a identification with the kind of Theology the kind of message that we're teaching.

Most of the churches in that region are Pentecostal or neo-pentecostal. Most I'm talking about probably over 80 when we use the name evangelical very broad name we're talking about and very little message about repentance and forgiveness of sins and Service to God and in that sense that now there are some other churches I don't want to give the impression that we're the only ones there are some other churches that really preach the Gospel of Christ and forgiveness of sins, but but we are in the minority even of the evangelicals.

So it's a very needy part of this and allowed us to Read some very dear people there and we've seen people just people that make up our church. Have no past and the evangelical churches at all. They either came out of unbelief completely and and the Bible or they came from Some religious background where they didn't believe in salvation by grace through faith.

Even though they profess to be Christian and so that's been the emphasis of our mission there.

So have the majority then been who have come to Christ through your ministry former Roman Catholics.

Yes, I would say the majority are and There are some also who have come out of the spiritism spiritism popular in Brazil and so these are people who have believed in the past and things like reincarnation idea that Jesus was not Divine in any sense.

He was just a leader that Brought spiritual light to the world with it just like maybe a Buddha or something like that so there's no real Christian distinctive even though sometimes there's a Message that you know, they would go to the Catholic Church and they get baptized there but you wouldn't find even the elements that we would agree with and The traditional Catholic doctrine and some of their views other ones are from a Catholic background.

But then of course, they don't understand the gospel of grace. They don't understand the The way of salvation, you know. The emphasis that the Reformation brought and so those things were also needed to be communicated to those who came from that kind of background.

Now.

So I'm assuming from what you said those Folks who may profess to be Christian, but are saying that Jesus Christ Isn't the God-man. He's just a great leader or something a great prophet and teacher. I'm assuming from what you said that this isn't coming from some specific cult or denomination that has a false understanding of Christ.

This is just people using the the basic.

The.

Basic teaching of humanism.

That.

May not be atheistic or agnostic. They are you know, like your average liberal in the United States might even believe something like that. Is that what you're saying or is it coming from a specific cult?

No, that is correct. It's basically people who have received no teaching about the Bible even though they profess to be Christian. So they learned what they believed. You know random sources within society.

Great. And. Do you think I've noticed that? In all of the Latin countries Where Roman Catholicism has been dominant for centuries. The rise of the Pentecostal and charismatic movements there. Do you see that?

Do you see the connection of the flourishing of Pentecostals and charismatics? Because of the connection with Roman Catholicism on one major issue and that is an emphasis of the miraculous even though I Don't know what it's like in the Latin countries today in regard to Roman Catholicism.

But for instance in most American Roman Catholic churches. They will be very stoic. They will be very reserved in nature in the way people worship. But there will still be a very strong belief in Holy water and relics having some kind of power to them because they've been blessed by a priest.

Even even modern-day Manufactured crucifixes that might be made out of plastic are deemed to have some kind of supernatural power because they are blessed by a priest and you have people who have vials of water from Lords and things like that.

Is that. Do you think that that is a connection to the flourishing of penance Pentecostal ism and in the charismatic movement because they.

They.

Really. They they out miracle the Catholics if you will in in the 21st century in the way that they of course We don't believe that. That what we are seeing in those churches and denominations are Really miracles, but they will claim the claims of the miraculous are far more abundant than you would find at least in America.

And I'm assuming places like the UK and so forth.

Yes, that's certainly true in Brazil the population is very mystical in many ways and that's I think always been part of Catholicism. There are many people who will have claims that they've received Revelations through apparitions of Mary and things like that.

There's a large part of the population today that skeptical of that kind of thing, but that's also very popular. And so there are claims for healing and supernatural intervention right near where we are there's a church a Catholic Church that has a room of Miracles and it will have a lot of testimonies that are posted on the wall and different reports of cases where people received Miracles in their lives and things that were supposed to be supernatural interferences like this that came from praying to a saint or praying to Mary or sometimes even praying to to God directly and this kind of emphasis does Already exist in the society.

And so I believe that that does contribute for this kind of religion like the Pentecostal ism and the neo Pentecostal ism to come in and actually emphasize that even more and Attempt to do one better.

Like you said, I think that really does contribute to the growth of movements like that in a country like Brazil.

And I do want to say once again That I'm not or I'm I'm sorry if I am broad brushing Pentecostals and charismatics. I believe that there are Many fine genuine brethren in Christ who come from those backgrounds.

And they run a very large spectrum of belief under the umbrella of What would be called Pentecostal or charismatic just like under the umbrella of Baptists you have? Quite a spectrum as well. I mean, that's true.

But.

And of course The miracle of salvation which is the greatest miracle of all I believe does occur within Pentecostals Pentecostal and charismatic movements and churches and so on. So I don't want to completely or I don't want to completely erase any miraculous things That are actually happening.

I'm just talking about the majority of things that are viewed as sign gifts where where Alleged miracles are happening through the laying on of hands and all that kind of thing. Right now, I have heard and I have seen in in documentaries and videos and Things like that that.

Many of us who were Cradle Catholics born and raised in the Catholic Church in America and perhaps UK and other places. We don't really know what? Catholicism is like until we've been to places like the Latin countries.

That where we're mary olatree is far more abundant and prominent and vibrant and superstitious. Would that be true of Brazil?

Yes, I believe that is true. I've noticed that Catholicism changes Depending where it is in the United States and the churches and homes. It's very common to see a lot of emphasis like that in our city.

On Holy Week, there will be processions in the street where some people sometimes will make a line Just following an image from one church to another. Where they have this ceremony where they put crowns on the heads of the image and people could come to kiss the image and touch it with the belief that that's one way that they will receive a blessing from God and Even healing and things like this.

So that's just being a big country that we have Local and in some parts of Brazil, it's very Connected is what you see going on in some of the Catholic churches. So that really depends on where you are.

Yes, I used to Broadcast from an all Spanish Christian station I was the only English program on the station and the only reformed program on the station and This was because a Spanish Christian Network Bought out the English-speaking Christian station that where my program aired and it was great.

Are you there brother? I think I just lost my guest Daniel Deeds, are you there? Yep, Daniel is gone. Well, we will have to wait for Daniel to call back and I'm sure he'll be calling back. Well, at least I hope he'll be calling back any second now and there goes Daniel and Hello Daniel, I'm not sure what happened there.

Yes, I.

Heard you saying that you used to broadcast and that was the last thing I heard.

Yeah, my show iron sharpens iron radio used to broadcast out of WNYG Radio on Long Island, New York, and it was bought out. It wasn't English speaking Christian station predominantly contemporary Christian music and it was bought out by a Spanish network that has stations all over the tri-state area of New York and even in Puerto Rico and I believe some other Latin American countries.

But my program is the only The only English-speaking program when it got taken over by the Spanish network and in fact I for a couple of days Lost the the program because everybody who was working for the English station English-speaking station when the Spanish station took over everybody lost their jobs and I got a call a few days later from the general manager of Radio Contigo Nuevo and who said to me is this mr. Chris Would you like to come back to this station?

Our phones are ringing off the hook people want your show back. So I remained on that station for several years until I relocate relocated here to Pennsylvania, but I noticed something that just as in American and English-speaking.

Pentecostalism and charismatic.

Churches.

You will I you could tell when a Spanish speaking pastor on the air was speaking in tongues He was very using he was very often or most often just using a couple of syllables and repeating them over and over again.

So if this if it was if it was a real language it would be the same word just being repeated over and over and I noticed that Iii was a lot of the A lot of the noise that was being made but but as we were saying there is a seem to seems to be a close connection to the charismatic movement and Roman Catholicism, even though you might have a lot of Pentecostal and charismatic pastors denouncing the Church of Rome from their pulpits because of theological reasons, there's still a lot of Similarity and and I don't know what it's like in the Hispanic culture and perhaps you could tell us but in the American culture or in the American Pentecostal and charismatic movements You will find a lot of ecumenism or ecumenism Today, whereas I remember in the 1980s when I was searching before I Finally found a home in a Reformed Baptist Church where I believe I was saved when I was visiting a lot of Pentecostal and charismatic churches.

Even in the 80s, which isn't really all that long ago for some of our listeners. It's their whole lives but but I can remember there being a lot of Correct sentiments opposed to Roman Catholicism whereas today Ecumenism is rampant with Rome and the charismatic and Pentecostal churches.

What is it like in the Latin American countries and in Brazil in particular in that regard.

Right. Well, I'll speak mostly for Brazil because I don't keep up so well with what's going on in the Spanish-speaking countries. But what is going on in Brazil is is very much like what you described.

Some of the most important leaders in even churches that come from historical traditional denominations like Baptists and groups like the Assembly of God and some of these other groups. Some of them have become very friendly towards the Catholic Church even having Catholic priests come and speak to their congregation preaching in the church that kind of thing has happened and it's caused.

You know concerns of how much these people really understand the gospel and the doctrine of justification by faith alone. Because that is not something that you will find within the theology of these of these Catholic.

Except an invitation to come and speak at your church. One of the things that I believe does contribute to that. It's just the fact that speaking in tongues as evidence of the Holy Spirit realized that happens in the same manner With the charismatic Catholics and so I think that that has a tendency to make them look.

Well, it must be that same kind of experience brother. Your voice is your voice is getting muffled again.

You have to make sure you keep your mouth near the voice piece.

Okay, I'll try it like this but the Charismatic experience can be identified also even in some other groups. They don't even claim to be Christian. So we might have in the Hindu religion people who have the same kinds of phenomena going on.

These people don't believe it's really going on there. It's not enough to say. Okay. We have a common faith a common Lord. Here we need to look at the essentials of the Bible of the Christian faith and Understand as Martin Luther said that the article of the church stands or falls off and things like that need to be Taken into account when we're talking about these kind of things more than just looking at the experience.

Which I think may be the factor in some of these people. Yes, and well our topic today is not The Roman Catholic Church. It is the perseverance and preservation of the Saints and more specifically the theme of your book which is Will I make it to heaven a new look at the perseverance of the Saints?

And once again, I want to repeat our email address. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, it's ch r .i .s. A r n Z En at gmail .com. Ch r .i .s. A r n Z en at gmail .com.

That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. One of the phrases I don't think that we mentioned during part one of our discussion on this.

Is.

Once saved always saved. And I want to get your answer to the same question that I get a lot but if I am talking with or speaking with a Christian that typically believes you could lose your salvation They will say to me.

Do you believe in once saved always saved and I will say well It depends on what you mean by that. And then I say yes, I do believe that once a person is truly saved They are always saved, but I do not believe once a person thinks they're saved that they're necessarily truly saved and therefore They don't they may not necessarily be always saved because they never were saved to begin with and I'll have to explain to them that a lot of Christians That use that phrase once saved always saved you will find that a lot amongst fundamentalist Baptists and other Christian groups who rightly believe that a true Christian cannot lose their salvation, but they will use that phrase which is also used by many people who have adopted a heretical understanding of salvation that is commonly nicknamed cheap grace or Easy believism where once a person makes some kind of a profession of inviting Jesus into their heart and as long as they really mean it now Obviously a person can be deceived as to whether or not they really mean it.

But.

There are people who Think that they are becoming Christians because they are being told by those around them perhaps even a pastor or preacher. You're saved now and once saved always saved if you ever doubt it, that's just the devil trying to tempt you into Doubting your salvation.

So once saved always said now that that obviously is that that kind of a minimal way of Describing security in Christ is a dangerous way, even though we believe in its core essence. It's true. If you're talking about somebody who's truly born again.

So, how would you answer that question? Do you believe in once saved always saved?

Well, yes, I do. I agree with you about this. I believe that if that's the way of expressing it depending on who you're talking to that might really generate that kind of confusion. I can recall very clearly when I was When I came out of the free will Baptist denomination where I was brought up and I joined the Southern Baptist.

I went on the visitation team or doing evangelism when we were visiting people who are coming to the church and I was with a. Training me on how to do these had shown up in church on a Sunday. Concerned that their kids how their kids were being raised they felt their kids needed to have some kind of church influence in their life.

Basically that was motivation and the person who was leading the visit as oh, yes, I have and they she walked out and showed that she had. Then made a profession of faith and a Baptist Church years ago it was like over 20 years ago and She showed that and so this individual looked at the card and said, oh, this is wonderful see, this is your cities that you are saved and this person had.

Had no interest in being the church for a long period of traits how many times people have not understood. What we intend to communicate when we say that there is security of looking at and that is dangerous.

Because you can go around assuring people of salvation who don't have fruit don't have evidence of salvation. That's that's not what we're going for. I think that's a misunderstanding. It's unfortunate.

There are churches that are teaching that now. That's kind of a recent phenomena churches didn't teach that anywhere. From anything that I was able to find in the research that I've done that was not the reformed Belief that was not what Baptists thought that was not what people who thought that you could lose your salvation.

We're more in line with the kind of a superficial attachment to Christianity is not salvation. That's not what we're talking about people like that aren't necessarily saved that I think is really important.

And I to communicate this reality in the book the book is and that there is no loss of salvation that was basically target audience for this book and What everything that I can get a hold of that's from the Armenian perspective and I've really tried to interact with these authors.

I've tried to position I held that and I think that they don't understand the reform. Idea of once saved all is something to react against concern about because that is dangerous. It can miss okay. Then what happens is initially when you make that kind of a profession of faith you do get saved and then you lose it.

Interest in the spiritual things that is not really what's going on either concern that we have. I? think that the misunderstanding here is unfortunate because. As I look back in history as I read the books that have come out through the centuries systematic theologies to Bible commentaries.

It's about perseverance and there have been many many a faith even in doctrinal statements that make it clear. So I've always saved even for the people who have no fruit in their life. So that message has not always gotten across times I'm concerned that if we don't know we can't fill in the gaps about what we can do.

We're trying to say to somebody who the Trinity he says well the Trinity is three gods even three gods. I believe. And you say oh look Jesus is God and you show him biblical evidence for the claims of Christ.

And so we're talking about against me. So I'm with you now, and they would not convert if they might come in three gods to another. We really want to avoid that when we talk about the security of the believer and perseverance of the same.

We want to make it clear that we're not teaching that a person can just forming regeneration signs of new life making that person walk and in faithfulness and grow in and faithfulness without that kind of evidence and teach people that that that can and Unconditionally said because at one point they made a profession of faith that that would be Very unfortunate if people went from one position to the other along those lines.

In fact we have to go to our break right now and when we return I want you to Define even though you did this last time in part one. I want you to define what perseverance of the Saints is How it's been historically understood and of course most importantly How it is biblically to be understood and then after that I'd like you to go through some of the major The major Attempts at refuting this teaching that Arminians or non Calvinists make and Show how they are being biblically Incorrect or inconsistent etc.

Okay, and if anybody would like to join us on the air we do have.

One.

Listener already waiting to have The. I'm not sure if it's a man or a woman because of the name it looks like an Asian name. But we have a listener named and I'm sorry, I'm probably gonna be mispronouncing your name, but Sikhi Lee.

In fact, let me read Sikhi Lee's Question and when we come back from the break if you want to Send me a follow-up email Sikhi with the correct pronunciation of your name. If you want to send it to me phonetically I will.

I will try to correct myself when we come back but Our listener in Pinoka, Alberta, Canada, and I don't even know if I've pronounced Pinoka correctly. Pinoka or Punica. Hi, Chris and Daniel great show.

You mentioned people thinking they're saved and if you doubt it, that's just the devil. What would you say to people who are doubting their faith? Some people struggle with assurance depression, etc. The list goes on.

Thanks. Excellent excellent question and we'll have our guests Answer that question when we return from the break. If anybody else would like to join that Listener our email address is Chris Arnzen a gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen a gmail .com. Don't go away. We will be right back after these messages from our sponsors with more of Daniel deeds and will I make it to heaven? I am Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens. Iron radio here to tell you about an exciting offer from world magazine.

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This is Chris Arnzen if you just tuned in our guest today. For the full two hours with 90 minutes approximately to go is Daniel deeds. And we are discussing part two of a discussion that we began last week.

Well, I made it. Will I make it to heaven. A new look at the perseverance of the Saints? Which is also the title of his new book published by Calvary Press. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. And before the break I Read a question from one of our listeners in Panoka, Alberta, Canada. Who just sent me an email with a correct pronunciation of the name? I still don't know if it's a man or a woman.

Sorry that that wasn't that wasn't confirmed, but it I was not only wrong in the pronunciation I was wrong on the the nation of origin. It is a Dutch name mixed with a Canadian name. So it is sick ah Lee sick ah Lee from Panoka, Alberta, Canada.

And sick ah asked. You mentioned thinking you mentioned people thinking they're saved and if you doubt it, that's just the devil. What would you say to someone or two people who are doubting their faith.

Some people struggle with assurance? Depression etc. The list could go on. Thanks. Well, that would obviously Depend a lot on the person you're talking to wouldn't it?

You need to keep in mind that the doubt may be coming from the devil that is trying to get a true Christian just to Paralyze him and his Christian walk and service to Christ to believe he's not saved and not forgiven.

On the other hand There's also the reality that it might be the Holy Spirit is showing this person the question of faith and he needs to really something real and so talk about. The issue of doubt and I would say this if we're talking to a person and Struggling with doubt this doubt will be not based on the idea that I I can see that I've lived a false life and I'm a Sam.

I'm not a true Christian. His doubt will be more along the lines of Okay, I know that my life has been am I really good enough and my person has come here in a way that Demonstrates a genuine conversion and not a person a way to yes I know that there are things that I need to change in my life if I'm going to be biblical.

But I don't want to do that. I don't want to have my life any different from what I am right now. So I believe when the Holy Spirit is working convicting There will be a direction This has got to be changed.

You are not living a life. You're living in sin. You're rebelling against Christ. You need to repent that would be the Holy Spirit. But if we're talking to a person who nothing that he can say well, this is where I'm I'm not willing for lead me.

But the person is saying Actually that I understand the Bible I am serving Christ and I'm still seeking to understand God's will more in my life and do it. But even so I'm not sure I think that would be more the symptoms of the devil trying to paralyze a person and not allow a person to enjoy security and an Assurance that they can have but the issue of assurance I think it's very personal and I don't think we can give a blanket statement that says, okay.

If you're in category a this is your case if you're in category B I think that would involve a little bit more personal knowledge of each case and probably a best thing to do would be to seek counseling with a godly leader that has good biblical knowledge and a good basis to give advice and Listen to the the kinds of terms and issues that are coming up in that individual's life.

I wouldn't try to make a generalized statement along those lines.

Yeah, let me in fact read some of the most chilling words of scripture. Coming from Matthew chapter 7 starting in verse 15. Beware of the false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing. But inwardly are ravenous wolves.

You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from Thorn bushes nor figs from thistles are they. So every good tree bears good fruit. But the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit.

Nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is Cut down and thrown into the fire. So then you will know them by their fruits. Not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will enter The kingdom of heaven, but he does.