The Power of the Gospel (w/ Chris Gordon) | Theocast

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Paul tells the church, I'm not ashamed of the gospel for it is the power of God. He has to warn us not to be ashamed about it because it consumes something that is far beyond our universe,

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God's power. What does that even mean? The modern Christian has a hard time wrapping our head around how words can contain

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God's power. That's what this episode is about. How do we enjoy the benefits of the gospel?

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And really what Paul is saying is that the world may look at it and that's something to mock, but the

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Christian looks at it and says, this is God's power for my life. We had a wonderful conversation around this subject with Dr.

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Chris Gordon and from Abounding Grace Radio. And this is a post -conversation that we had after the conference, which is a conference on suffering and the return of Christ.

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All of that is available on YouTube or our app or on our website. If you want to listen to the conference, the lectures, the panel discussions, we hope you enjoy.

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If you're new to Theocast, you may not have heard of this word. It's called pietism. Have you ever felt like the

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Christian life is a heavy burden versus rest and joy? That you wake up worrying about how well you're going to perform instead of thinking about what

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Christ has done for you. It's dread versus joy, really. That's pietism. Pietism causes

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Christians to look in on themselves and find their hope, not in what Christ has done, but what they're doing.

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And we have a little book for you. It's free. We want you to download it and we're going to explain the difference between pietism and what we call confessionalism.

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Reform theology, really. How it is that we walk by faith, seeing the joy of Christ, and when

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Jesus says, come to me and I will give you rest, what does that look like? You can download it on our website.

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Just go to Theocast .org. All right, we are back with Theocast and Abounding Grace together.

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You guys realize this was a year ago. We did. We did this and that was quick. That was like, you know, our first introduction to each other and it was love at first sight.

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We admired one another from afar. It was funny how fast like we got down the theological trail.

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That's what I'm saying. It was like theological love. Yeah, but seriously, it was like just so encouraging just to like feed off each other.

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What about this? What about that? And we left like, wow, that was encouraging. That was fun. It was worth the trip. I think

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Dan just spent his time with Dan Borg. Yeah, Dan Borg. Yeah, we should have had him on. We have another spot.

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Well, we obviously did a conference yesterday and we want to talk about the power of the gospel, right?

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That's what we want to do. Yeah, we like talking about that. It's a good theme. Paul does say it is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe.

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But that's a hard concept for people for some reason. Why? I'll be frank. It's hard for me. I'm trying to wrap my mind around it.

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Because if you do grasp the reality of that, it's like, okay, you can tap in.

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There's nothing more powerful than God. And he hands it over to you. He goes, here, you can have it for your benefit, for your good.

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Here you go, have it. And you're just kind of like, so how does that work? Because then he goes, well, it's for justification, sanctification, glorification.

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It's for all of life. And it's not like, it's not here are the keys to unlock the gym so you can go make yourself strong.

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He goes, I'm strong in my power and it's yours. Right. And that's really what the conversation. I've been just geeking out about it lately.

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I've been thinking about preaching. I've been thinking about shepherding and pastoring. I've been thinking about my own heart and the promises of the gospel.

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And thinking about listeners of both podcasts where Paul makes that statement.

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And if we're all honest, there is like a I really wish I understood that more. You said something yesterday

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I thought was really helpful at the conference that, you know, if it all makes sense to you, you're probably not understanding it correctly.

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I think that's exactly right, because what we're encountering is the wisdom of God, which turns everything on its head, right?

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There's nothing in the wisdom of God that human reasoning can figure out. It has to come from divine help by the spirit to even grasp this, right?

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And that's the whole point you're making. Well, I mean, taken on its own terms, we all agree. It beautifully hangs together, meaning the gospel,

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God's plan of salvation. But what we are arguing is the human reason component that you just said. Right.

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Like one way to frame this is, as we trace the redemptive arc of scripture and God's plan from all of eternity, and you sketch that out for people, you hold it out to them, and you ask, now, how many of us would have done it this way?

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How many of us could have conceived such a thing? A plan like this? None of us. It breaks our brains.

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None of us would have done it this way. Right. None of us could have ever, with our wisdom, planned it this way.

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And that's what we mean. That's what you meant, John, in saying if it makes sense to you, then you're probably not preaching the gospel.

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Right. Because human reason does not comprehend this. I mean, it's spiritual things discerned, right? First Corinthians 2.

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That's exactly right. Exactly. I have been at times in my own church, I don't know if you guys have felt, I know you have, because we've had conversations about it, but you're preaching the gospel, and in the back of your gut, you want to create like an asterisk, like an explanation.

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But that's that feeling we're talking about. Yeah. Right. All right. Because you could feel people, you know, even you know, you want to say, well, and there's a need for obedience.

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That's that part of the gospel that you're, actually, no, there's not.

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There has to be, and we always want to endlessly qualify. Thank you. That's the word. Add the conditions and qualifications to take down, because we're so worried about perception of getting hit on the other angle of some theological air, when we can't just let the point that we're making speak for itself.

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That's right. Right. So we dilute it, and it loses the very power we're trying to achieve, right?

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You basically nuance it to death. Yes, and it loses its punch and its power. Yeah. Yeah, because it's overqualified.

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I agree. Yeah, and I was listening to Dr. Bob yesterday with Dr. Godfrey, and he, uh, man, he suffocated us for a long time.

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Just law, like, and it was great because it was the righteousness of Christ when he comes to expose us all.

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Right. And you can feel that, and that when all the air got sucked out of your lungs, you're longing for the fresh, pure air of the gospel, and when you suck it in, you're realizing,

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I don't want anything else, right? Right. What unfortunately, though, is if, like, and he did it right. Like, he completely sucked everything out of you in the law, and then it's like, all right, now here's

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Christ. Here's the gospel. Exactly. Unfortunately, um, what we try and do is we want, we don't want to, you know, suck the air out of everybody, so we'll do law and the gospel.

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Like, well, here's how, here's how it kind of both makes sense, and then you get no power, because all you get is exhaustion, and that's part of where I can even feel it in my own preaching where, um, relying on the

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Holy Spirit and relying on the gospel to transform people, there are times you just kind of want to walk over and just, you know, tap someone upside the head and like, hey, man, you need to get this.

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Yeah. And use my own strength, my own wisdom, use the law, right? And you can't do that, right?

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We have to use the first use of the law to drain the center and then lead them to Christ, and then trust that leading them to Christ will then do its work of transformation.

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And just recently, I was, it was so refreshing over just this conference and this conversations that we've had where, um, you know, when

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Hebrews says, like, consider how to build one another up, there are times this weekend I was kind of like, all right, I'm not crazy.

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Like, the gospel's, it can do this. Right. The gospel's sufficient, you know. Grace is abounding to do this for us.

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To the chief of centers, right? That's right. We're always learning and growing, you know, as Christians, but even for the three of us as pastors, as preachers, and I think our preaching in different seasons of our ministries takes on, to use an old word, like a different tincture.

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And that's because of the things the Lord is teaching us. Yeah. That's a good thing. Right. Right. And so I've been,

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I think, reconvicted. John and I've talked some about this, but I'm happy to say this with you, Chris, and we can maybe interact over some of it.

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Convicted again of some of the things that Sinclair Ferguson writes about in his wonderful book,

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The Whole Christ. Right. Pertaining to the marrow controversy and and all of that that went down in the church in Scotland in the 18th century.

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And his observation, particularly regarding Thomas Boston and how

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Boston was adamant, and the marrow men in general, were adamant about how we ought not ever separate

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Christ from his benefits. That's so good. And so for me, not that I think that I was necessarily doing this, but I've been, it's been on the front of my mind and in my heart as a preacher, and I even aimed to do some of this yesterday, is not to preach justification or sanctification, glorification as the gospel.

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Those are benefits. Those are wonderful things. But first and foremost, to hold out

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Jesus Christ to sinners and say, look at him. Behold him. Trust in him.

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Cast yourself upon him. He loves you. He is for you. He is with you. And obviously that brings people to Christ in faith for the first time, but that also continues to sustain and nourish and fan the flames of affection in the hearts of the saints, right?

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And that's something that has been helpful in my own mind and heart in recent months and even conversations amongst our pastors.

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I think it really shows, though, how impossible faith is apart from it being a divine gift because, you know, that's just too good to be true, right?

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And so if it's, and that's what we're talking about when we talk about, you know, does it make sense?

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It's too good to be true. It's too good to be true because it doesn't seem to touch on the experience

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I had, which you addressed yesterday. The experience that I have with indwelling sin, and the continued indwelling sin, the corruption.

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Yeah. I think it was Zanke, Jerome Zanke, that made this great distinction in Romans 7 that you developed,

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I thought really well yesterday, that listen, there's a difference in the Christian. In the

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Christian, he doesn't sin according to the whole man, right? It's in his fleshly sinful nature that he sins, but his desire, his desire, because he's renewed in the inward man, his inner being, is to love

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God with all of his heart, soul, mind, and strength. But if you're touching on experience, and because there's so much continued struggle, even failure, it's really hard for the sinner, apart from the grace of God, it's impossible forever to see and embrace this.

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You will always say, no, that's impossible that God could love me, or it's impossible that I'm right with him.

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That's the fear, or the suspicion, whatever word we want to use, the thing that haunts us, that if we're all honest, it's like, yeah, that's always kind of there, and that's the one.

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It's always there. It's always just kind of in the background of my mind. It's always kind of in the recesses of my heart. John Owen, in communion with the triune

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God, he makes it plain that it is normal for us to have hard thoughts of God in our flesh and blood.

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And we think, I said this yesterday, we think it's presumptuous. I ought not get flesh and blood, creaturely, sinner, all these things.

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I ought not think of God as kind and tender and gentle and loving. That's, I'm way out over my skis.

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I shouldn't talk like that. And that's why we need the constant preaching of the gospel, to be reminded of the fact, like you just used the language of, there's no way that we're good,

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God and myself. There's no way that he could really love me. It's like, oh, but he does.

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Maybe for the guy over there, but there's a cloud always over you. Yeah. And I think, maybe there are some out there whose constitutions, the way the

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Lord has wired them, that's not a struggle. But I know the saints in our local church, well over 90 % of them, myself included, would say, yeah, these are things that plague me.

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And I need to be reminded, and I need to meditate. I mean, in my own heart and mind, as I consider the scriptures,

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I consider Jesus, I need to be shown, I need to think more often of how the Lord is pleased with me, how he loves me, he's for me, he's with me.

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And this has been accomplished by Christ because he has accomplished peace, reconciliation, all of the curse, all of the judgment, he's taken it.

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There is no more anger, there is no more wrath, those things. Before you go, one support to that is, years ago,

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I was sitting, a man in my congregation, he was a tough man. He was a man who fought in wars, got brain cancer.

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And he didn't last long, he was dead within like a month or two. So I went to his house, you know, and I got to have, you know,

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Pastor Orley, you're concerned, where is this guy? How's he handling this? Like, bro, how's your soul?

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Yeah, how's your soul? You know, we have concerns about that. We want to minister Christ to people in their suffering, especially in their deathbeds, right?

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And to see what kind of, are they confident? Are they having doubts? How can we minister? So I go into the room, and I sit down with him, and this may be one of the, you talk about constitutions, that's what

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I am. Right, right, right. Maybe one of the toughest men I've come across, right? So I say to him, I say, listen, brother, you're going to die.

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Like, there's no way out of this. You know, they've given you, it's terminal, you've got a month.

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It's that bad spread all throughout your brain. I said, how are you doing?

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I said, you have any fears or doubts? And he looks at me, and he says, none.

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And I went, something's wrong with that. That's my initial thought.

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You've got to have some doubt. You've got to have some, you've got to have something there that tells me, because that's not, and I thought to myself,

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I've wrestled over that over the years. So then I asked him, I said, well, what do you want me to preach at your funeral? And he says,

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Psalm 49. Psalm 49. I know, that's like a thought in my head right now.

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Come again? So I go home and I read Psalm 49, and it's a contrast between the wicked and the righteous, and how the righteous have their souls ransomed.

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It's so beautiful in that song. And right then and there, I saw why he could say, nope, no, because he was trusting in Christ.

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That's right. And I don't think everyone has that experience. I don't think everyone has that kind of confidence due to constitutional issues, due to struggles.

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I think there's different levels, but at the same time, any hearty faith that's true faith receives all praise.

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Amen. Yeah. Amen. My constitution is a little bit different. I shared this with Justin. Yeah, John and I are different. That I, when

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I was in the dispensational world underneath the preaching when I was 12, I'd get out of bed every night and pray because I was worried

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I was going to get raptured without me. But once I learned the gospel from a Reformed perspective, my heart just fell into rest.

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Where I struggle, and kind of where I wanted to go with this a little bit, Peter says, in this you rejoice.

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Now, in modern day preaching, you rejoice when you do well. Right? You've done well.

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You should rejoice. There's a verse that comes before this. He says, 1

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Peter 1 .5, who by God's power are being guarded through a faith for salvation.

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In that, you rejoice. Amen. We always want to look at how, all right,

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I've done well this week. I've done well this month. And then I want to rejoice. And Peter's like, oh, no, no.

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In the good, in the bad, you always have reasons to rejoice because it's God's power that's keeping.

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And I love this. This is so important because he says, who by God's power are being guarded through faith.

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It's faith. Exactly. For instance, sometimes I try to make conversations with people. I'll say, do you believe that Christ literally rose from the grave and was victorious for you, conquering all of condemnation for you?

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And his righteousness is now what God clothes you with. But you believe that reality.

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So let me change this for you. I said, what if you had an actual conversation with God and it says,

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I love you, I've forgiven you. What you're telling me is, I don't know if he meant it.

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Or I don't know that he's really said that to me. But let's pretend you did. I'm saying, let's pretend you really had that conversation. Because you cannot believe that to be true unless it's been granted to you by God's power.

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Your faith in Christ has been granted to you. You cannot put faith in Christ, even if it is a grain of salt.

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You cannot do that unless it's by God's power. And so what I tell people is, you're believing that God is duplicitous.

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Then that is not a direction that you want to go. Right. You think that he's altogether like you.

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That's right. Basically. God does not change. But that is nonetheless the struggle of our people that we're constantly pulling them out of.

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Of course. Right. Which is why I think we have been commanded by Paul to be in season and out of season, constantly revealing the power of God unto the believer.

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I often go back in my own mind. I think it was just the season in life in which I read this.

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You guys know how that is. You read a certain thing at a certain point in your life and you never forget it. In Richard Sibb's wonderful work,

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The Bruce Reed, there's the account that he gives us towards the end of this hypothetical dialogue between a believer and Satan.

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And Satan's accusing the believer of the weakness of the believer's faith and of how little the believer has loved.

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And all of the accusations that Satan is hurling at this weary, weak

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Christian. As Sibb's has built this whole work, Jesus is the one who does not break

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Bruce Reed's. He doesn't put out smoldering wicks. Effectively, he's gentle and lowly, to use our modern vernacular.

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As Satan says to the believer, you've got no love. You've got no faith.

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The believer says, you're right. Just a flicker of faith and love. Satan says, well,

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Christ will regard that. To which the response is, oh, but he will.

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He will cherish it. That flicker. He will cherish it and he will nurture it until he has brought judgment to victory.

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And that's the word. I mean, I have chills saying it because that's the peace and the security that the gospel alone gives.

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I mean, that's the power of God. That even the great accuser, and that's not a hypothetical, metaphorical thing.

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I mean, that's real. The great accuser himself, he's got nothing because Christ will cherish us.

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And he sustains and he nourishes. Man, it's the best news in the world. Just going back on our conference a little bit, continuing to read.

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Peter says, in this you rejoice. And I didn't finish the verse. Though now for a little while, if necessary, you've been grieved by various trials.

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So he removes the trial saying, the trials aren't the results of your disobedience or the results of God's favor being removed.

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God's power still rests upon you in the midst of your trials. He goes, so you can rejoice even though you're in a trial.

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So that the testiduneness of your face, more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found as a result in praise and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

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So we often think problems in my life, God's favor and love is removed.

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And Peter's like, oh, no, it doesn't work like that. Because in your trials, you still have reasons to rejoice because it's through those trials that God actually reveals his power.

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Right. That's right. One of the best doctrines, I think, one of my favorite is the doctrine of providence.

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And I think, I think, yeah. And Bob Godfrey last night really hit it out of the park on that point that, you know, when he's talking to the

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Thessalonians who have are living in hope, but are suffering and being persecuted, you know, they can't see the whole picture, right?

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And he makes a startling claim in that passage that, listen, your suffering vindicates the righteous judgment of God.

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That is so powerful. It's so powerful. That's right. I mean, we encourage the listener to go back and listen to Dr. Godfrey's talk on that.

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So there's a purpose there. There's other purposes. But one of the things Bob asked, which I thought was just really a crucial insight into the text, what if he had answered their prayers and taken away all their suffering and had taken it all away in the moment, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

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So there's a bigger picture to everything God has in his providence. He's working out a marvelous plan.

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He even talked about giving us time to grow, you know, in love for him and in sanctification and all those things.

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That's a blessing he's given us. In other words, yeah, suffering's difficult. We always live in this hope of future glory, but there's a lot of good things happening through this that the

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Lord has told us. Yeah. I mean, is it Paul who says, don't count the patience of the Lord? Yeah.

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As slow as giving us a promise, as we would consider as slowness.

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Yeah. But he's being patient towards us all that we all might repent. Yeah. Right. And he talked about, as a lot of artists, like time for us to grow, but also that all of the elect, you know, and I love his joke.

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It was kind of like, if God would come back in the first century, what would have happened to all of you? He goes, more importantly, what would happen to me?

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I love it. 80 years old. He still has a sense of humor. Still ready. That's right. But the power of the gospel,

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I mean, and this is what we're, you know, and even our Lord is to give us an inspired text.

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I think of the man who says, Lord, I believe, help my unbelief. You know, what a text. Calvin comments on that text and says, this isn't what it should be, but isn't it remarkable that God inspired this for those who know they're really struggling, even with, even though they might have faith as of a mustard seed, they still struggle with doubt and unbelief.

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That's right. You know, that's right. And the Lord helps us in that. That's how powerful the gospel is constantly.

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He does. Yeah. And I, what I, what I love about the ministries that we get to participate in is that we don't talk about the gospel because sometimes you say the gospel is powerful.

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Well, that's like trying to explain to somebody about a plane ride that's never been on a plane, like just that feeling that you have.

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And it's like, well, it's kind of hard to describe, you know, and when, when someone hears the power of the gospel, there can be a disconnect because when you realize the gospel is the entire story of humanity and how, like for instance, in the garden,

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God has created in perfection, this relationship with him, and then it comes to just an utter crash, right?

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And it is full of hopelessness based upon the actions of men. And the promise of the gospel is

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God restores everything that was lost, and I love this, and more, we gain more in Christ than we ever had in Adam.

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We gain more in Him than we lost in Adam. That's right. And the story, the gospel is the story of the work of God.

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Like, that's the thing that people forget. It's the story of the unwavering, faithful work of God from beginning to end for all of life and all of eternity.

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And the book is so long, you can't sit and read the story of the gospel in one sitting, but yet you can explain it to a child in five minutes.

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It's overwhelming, you know? So, it's like, sometimes we think that the gospel is so simple.

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It's like, oh, it's Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. No. Yes and no.

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It is faithfulness because this is some of what I was arguing for yesterday.

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A claim is only as powerful as its evidence, right? You know, I am the greatest golfer in the world.

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I can make that claim, but what are you going to ask me? What's the evidence, homie? And God goes,

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I am the greatest saver in the world. And he slaps the Bible down and goes, you read my evidence.

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That's powerful, right? That's overwhelming. And yet people are like showing up on Sunday and say, hey, tell me how to be better.

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I was like, you should hear how God never fails. That's what you should hear.

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You want to hear how not to fail? You've missed it. You need to be looking to the God that doesn't fail and then listen to what he thinks of you versus how can

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I be better this way? I'm all for sanctification and obedience, and it has a place. And faithfulness, as Dr.

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Bob says, and faithfulness is important, right? But the faithfulness has to be in light of what God has done for me, not me trying to show

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God I deserve to be in this relationship with you. Well, talk about the power of God. I mean, I think we've said these things before.

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I mean, collectively, sanctification is wonderful. It's the work of God in and through us.

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And if we want to see sanctification, how's it going to happen? Certainly, we need the law because we're not going to know what righteousness looks like without the law.

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We're not going to know what's good for my neighbor without the law. I'm not going to know what's going to be good for my life, what's going to wreck my life, et cetera.

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What honors the Lord? I need the law for that. The law guides sanctification. Amen. But only the heralding of Christ is the power.

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Only Jesus, in union with Christ, is the power unto sanctification. We'll say on the front end, in terms of first use of the law, the law cannot give life.

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It can only kill. Well, when it comes to sanctification, the law cannot transform.

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It can only guide. And so, being guys that care about godliness and care about sanctification and the transformation of the life of the

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Christian, well, brothers, let's preach Jesus. We want sanctified people. Preach Christ.

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And I think a lot of times that's lost. Even amongst well -intentioned, serious -minded

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Christians who are well -read know some things. That's lost on us.

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Because then again, we get back to that human reasoning piece. Because for us, at a human level, we mess this up.

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Because, well, that doesn't make sense to me, that to preach Jesus and to preach the law, not with a bunch of teeth and scariness for the believer, but to preach the law as the good thing that it is, holy, righteous, and good, is the law and everything it commands.

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If I preach it that way and I say to the saints, look at the law, look at how good that is. Don't we want to live like that? And then

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I herald Christ to you. That, in our human intuition, we're like, well, that's clearly not going to get it done.

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Because there has to be some edge, some threat. There's got to be some skin in the game if this is really going to happen.

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I think that's a tool of the evil one. I mean, to get up and preach a recipe from a cookbook and demand that one understand the recipe does not create the meal.

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It doesn't. It requires an action that, in the end, is well beyond our capabilities.

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So we need to know the recipe because it is part of us understanding how God wants us to function and the obedience of it.

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But in the end, we realize, what is the power to actually do that? It does not come from within. I was just thinking in light of that.

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When Christ comes and when he came and he preached to the peoples, it's a well -known passage.

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But I don't know if people make the connection here that he goes into the synagogue on Sabbath, and he's handed the book of Isaiah, the prophet scroll, lands on Isaiah 49.

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The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because he's anointed me to preach gospel, good news to the poor.

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He sent me to heal the brokenhearted, proclaim liberty to the captives, recovery of sight to the blind, set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the acceptable year of the

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Lord. He closes the book, gives it back to the attendant, sits down. The eyes of all them were on him in the synagogue, and he began to say,

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Scripture is fulfilled. But it was this. It's the response of the people. They marveled at the gracious words that came out of his mouth.

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A lot of people present Jesus as always hard and combative and coming at people, and he did.

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What a great observation. He did. I've not seen that before. But what he does, what they're marveling at,

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I think of the masses listening to this. They're marveling at the gracious words. Now, what happens after this?

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So, he preaches the gospel, challenges them, right?

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Surely they start to reject him. It wasn't even the law by which they're rejecting.

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They're even rejecting the gracious words. So, I tell you truly, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heavens were shut up three years and six months, and there was great famine throughout all the land.

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But to none of them was Elijah sent, except to Zarephath, the region of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow.

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And many lepers were in Israel in the times of Elisha the prophet, who's he setting free, right? Lepers, poor.

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None of them was claimed except name in the Syrian. So, all those in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, and rose up and thrust him out of the city.

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They led him to the brow of the hill on which their city was built. They might throw him down the cliff. All that was incited by preaching, first off, the gracious and fulfilling words,

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I'm the one that sets free the poor. And they got furious. You're setting free who? You're setting free who?

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Right. Those who don't deserve it. Well, and it's like they immediately, like one, bro, just, yeah, amen to everything you said.

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And as they marvel at his gracious words, but then they question his legitimacy and his identity.

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They attack him. Like this is Joseph's son, isn't it? Yeah. They start attacking him. Right. Yeah. Immediately.

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Yeah. Wonderful observation. So, I guess what I'm saying is that, and then

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Jesus makes the point, but that power was shown in the people to whom it was intended. Amen. You know,

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Naaman, who? Assyrian got it, right? The little widow of Zarephath got it.

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And the point he's making there, it is the power of God for salvation to those who believe.

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And that belief, who hear the gracious words spoken to them, supporting what you guys are saying, it's the gracious words that incite the faith, right?

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Yeah. He's preaching the gospel to them and they're saying, amen. Those who are his children,

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I believe it. I believe it. The law has convicted them. The law has crushed them, but it's the gracious words that has won them over.

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Yeah, of course. Hey guys, real quick. Some of you are listening to this and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions.

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So, where do you go? How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources? We have started something called the

32:27

Theocast community. We're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like -minded believers, all of our resources there, past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's there.

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You can share it and ask questions. You can go check it out. The link is in the description below. Whatever you're preaching, your mind and your heart's always there.

32:46

I'm about to conclude a series in Romans and just really been struck by the response that we have to the gracious words.

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Why is it that we would not only balk at the gracious words, but be wrathful? I know.

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To the gracious words. Well, he's fulfilling Isaiah. Right. He's still fulfilling

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Isaiah. I'm always mindful, you know, Luke 7, just a few chapters after what you said, you know, when the messengers are sent from John the Baptist because John's about to die.

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And it's like, hey man, are you the one or should we look for another one? How does he respond? It's Isaiah 35. Well, tell

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John, this is what's happening. You know, that I'm more or less, I'm giving the sight to the blind.

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I'm healing the lame, right? Lepers are cleansed and all these things. The dead are raised up. The poor have good news preached to them. In other words, I'm the one, right?

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That's really cool. But I'm just thinking about why is it that there's a wrathful response to gracious words?

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And I'm convinced that the great obstacle, talking in ways that we can relate, the great obstacle to faith in Christ, the great obstacle to having a gracious response to gracious words is the fact that we're all running around trying to establish our own righteousness.

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There it is. We're Pharisees. Right. While recovering. This is the great error. I mean, thinking about, I mean, what Paul writes at the end of Romans 9 into the early verses of Romans 10, it's gripping that this is the great error.

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Somebody wants to find a Pharisee as those who are furious with grace, you know, furious with grace in the lives of those over there.

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And they're furious that God would do that. I have never been contacted as a pastor or as theocast because someone heard me and they said, guys, you got me chopped in sin.

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Like your grace, like you're great. Your teachings of grace led to licentiousness in me. Now that's always the concern though, that for other people.

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But that's what I know. I'm worried about what it's going to do. You keep saying that you keep saying that that's going to lead to licentiousness.

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Right. Well, all right. For whom? Exactly. I've said, who does, what does Paul get accused of? I don't know how many times.

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It's so clear. Paul is not accused of being a legalist. Never. He's always accused of being an antinomian.

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He's considered like, why is it that the Jews by and large hated him? I mean, even when he says, like in Romans 15, pray for me when

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I take this aid to Jerusalem, that I might be delivered from those in Judea, like the unbelievers in Judea. Why?

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Well, because he was, he was seen as being against Moses, right? He was seen as a blasphemer in that regard.

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Well, why does every religion have an anti -grace bent to it? And you don't see the world trying to manipulate

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Mormonism, Hinduism, Islam. They're not, they're not built on grace, but it seems like the world has been trying to manipulate the gospel.

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And I'll just say it is by nefarious, supernatural, dark means, right?

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And he has been manipulating it as many different ways from Sunday as he can. And it always, if you think about it, it always results in removing grace.

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So you, you know, this and gets back to our initial comment, think of the backwardness of all of this. You would think that a holy

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God who is so just and pure that he would, the last thing he would intend to give us is grace.

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And he's overturned the world with this message. Well, listen, the God of this world, where it says, you know, in Corinthians, where it says, he blinds the hearts of men.

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That's what he blinds them to. I'm convinced he blinds them to the grace of God. He doesn't blind them to from God.

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He blinds them from his grace. He wants them to hate him. He's a mean, vindictive, judgmental,

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I don't like that God. He's like the other gods. Right. Okay. Yeah. And that's, that's exactly right.

36:26

That, and that was a good point you made in the, in the, I was getting about what you were saying. That's a really good point you made in the conference yesterday that we don't take, don't give enough credence to the warfare and actually what the evil one, what the third round, what all the, the, the, the warfare that's happening, what it's seeking to do.

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It's aiming to disrupt everything that has to do with what Christ did on the cross.

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Everything that Christ, if that's the purpose of the son of God to come and lay down his life to deliver his people from their sins, that's his chief mission then to attack that.

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Right. Right. In the lives of God's people. Pre and post. Right. So, right. It's such a good point. Jesus, John 14, if you've seen me, you've seen the father.

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I'm just kind of picking up on this second Corinthians four piece. Like what, what has the God of this world done? He's blinded us, but in particular to use the language,

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I'm just going to read it. In their case, the God of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers to keep them from seeing what the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God for what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord with ourselves as your servants for Jesus sake for God who said, let light shine out of darkness has shown in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

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That's why the gospel. This is the thing. This is what the God of this world is seeking to blind people.

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I mean, for this reason, he is seeking to keep people from seeing what and from seeing who that's right.

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Like, yeah, you're going to have hard thoughts of God. If you don't see the love and the mercy and the grace and the power of Jesus Christ for you.

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Right. That's the thing as a preacher, this is helpful for me, right? Because you're going to stand up and everyone's going to mock you.

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So if you're being mocked and ridiculed, Paul's like, that's warfare.

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But when you see the eyes of a person soften and you see their heart turn towards you, you can go, oh, spirit's working.

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Yeah. It's like the man Peter was preaching to and he could see, he perceived, he had the faith to be healed.

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I've looked out sometimes and seen people who are really taking it in and people sleeping. That's absolutely right.

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They've had a hard day at work, right? But for those of us who all are part of the mission, we're all ambassadors, we're all claiming

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Christ to the world. There is a sense of comfort when they look at you and they're like, you're crazy.

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And you go, okay, I'll move on. I'm going to move to the next because somebody, somewhere, the spirit's going to touch them and they're going to come to life.

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And it's I didn't do something wrong. It's not me. They're not angry at me. The enemy has blinded them and I need to remember that it's going to take time and patience and suffering and often maybe death to bring them to life.

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And also, Paul got most worked up, I'm convinced, because of these super apostles, which you were talking about yesterday.

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He got most worked up because of the attacks. If you look at the verse we all like in 2

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Corinthians 10, it says, listen, um, we don't war according to the flesh for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought in captivity.

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You know the context of that? It is that these, um, these super apostles were attacking him in Corin and saying, listen, this guy's a total wimp.

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Yeah. He's, he's a total wimp. When he's with you, he's passive. He's weak. He has no courage.

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But then when he gets away, he writes a letter and he just bashes you guys. What kind of phony hypocrites that Paul's worked up about this.

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He's like, listen, I'm not weak, but here's how he starts that whole section.

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Now I Paul myself in pleading with you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ.

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Listen, I've learned to control my ministry because I've learned from Christ. What did I learn from Christ? What did he say?

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I'm lowly and gentle heart. Yes. I have learned that my ministry to centers has to be that I've controlled myself to not become like these guys.

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Right. But he's worked up because don't think I'm weak. The weapons we use are spiritual and we are absolutely in the power of the gospel tearing down strongholds in people's lives.

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We are shattering the darkness of people's lives, but it's not coming the way you think. And I'm controlled by the mind of Christ.

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Yes. That's why faithful servants will always be attacked when they preach the gospel and they are preaching the meekness of Christ, the gentleness of Christ, the forgiveness of Christ.

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They're always going to be attacked with this kind of charge. You guys are weak. You guys are soft.

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You guys are compromised. You guys are antinomians constantly, constantly, constantly. And that's, that's what we get.

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But the mind of Christ controls us. Amen. I think we both want to talk about what you just said.

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Did I excite you in some way? Jesus's half -brother James starts his letter. And this is something that Justin and I, we constantly pray for each other when we record.

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James says, if you lack wisdom, ask God and he will give it to you without reproach. Like every time you ask it, he is going to be like, seriously, again, you're asking for it again?

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He's like, without reproach, man, over and over and over again. And at the end of his letter, he goes, in case you don't know what wisdom is,

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I love this. He says, wisdom from above is first, pure, peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy, and good for it's impatient and sincere.

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That's just great. When you are lacking that list, he goes, ask me for it and I'll give it to you.

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And that's what Paul's talking about. He's like, yeah, I'm going to go ahead and be wise with you on like what you were to me.

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I think, of course, we all agree as pastors, as preachers, there is a time.

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I mean, the text drives us. There is a time for warning. There is a time for soberness.

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We practice church discipline. I mean, all of these things go without saying. But I do think that little piece that you just read and expounded upon from 2

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Corinthians 10 is a significant word regarding pastoral posture, is a significant word regarding how do

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I aim to preach? What's my demeanor as I get into the pulpit, as I get behind the sacred desk week over week?

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How should I be thinking and how should I be praying, not only for myself, but for my people as I'm going to approach that moment?

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And then the patience and the gentleness and the meekness of Paul is not weakness.

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It's like, no, I'm acting this way with you for a reason. And I'm mindful of immediately 1

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Timothy 1, 15 and 16. We know it well. The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom

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I am the foremost, he says. But I received mercy for this reason, that in me as the foremost,

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Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life.

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In other words, he's saying, look, I'm the chief of sinners, guys. Christ has been so patient and so merciful with me.

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Why? So that you, dear saints, can know that he will be the same way with you. So here's a thought on that.

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Did you ever thought that the apostles had the authority to throw it down on people, but decided, how rare do we see it?

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Think of Peter and Ananias and Sapphira. Like you're saying, we get a moment like that and Peter says, you know, you're going to perish.

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And as soon as he pronounces the judgment, they fall dead. Right. Or Paul, you know, with Elimus, the, the sorcerer, he, he blinds the guy.

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So these guys had the apostolic authority and power to exercise judgment in ways that we don't.

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But the point Paul's making is we controlled ourselves. You rarely see that from us because the mind of Christ, but he does warn the

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Corinthians here, which is interesting in that passage. He says, I know you guys are saying I'm in presence lowly and when

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I'm absent bold, but I beg you, I want to see some strength here. I beg you when

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I'm present that I may not be bold with that confidence.

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So in other words, when I come to you, you guys need, you guys don't fall into this because I do not want to show my boldness of what

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I can do to you. Right. But he says of what I tend to show against those guys. In other words, the, the heretics, the false fossils,

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Paul was like, I'm going to bring it down on them. Right. I am. He had no fear to do that. No, that's a good word too.

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I will wreck you is what he's saying. We are tender. We're gentle. We're patient with the sheep and we shoot the wolves.

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Yeah. I mean, John, I mean, not John, but Romans 15 one, those of you who are supposed to have an obligation to deal with the failings of the week.

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Right. And then Peter, and then he'll write to Titus saying, Hey, if you got someone who's contentious, warn him once, warn him twice, and then boot him.

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Yes. Right. Which you see the tenderness towards the weak and the hostile. If you don't.

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We are not passive to that stuff. No, Galatians. So Galatians five and six, same pattern, opposite order.

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Galatians five, some of the sharpest elbows in the New Testament. Paul goes hard in the paint right there, right?

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He does. I mean, where it's like, listen, if you're going to accept circumcision or any work of the law, right?

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Well, you better keep the whole thing because it is either all of Christ or it's all of you, right? You do with that what you will, but this is how it is.

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There's no middle ground. But then Galatians six one, those of you who are spiritual, if anyone is caught in sin, those of you who are spiritual ought to restore him with a spirit of gentleness, keeping watch on yourselves, lest you to be tempted.

46:07

That's right. That's that same pattern. Where's he worked up most? It's over the gospel. Of course he is any corruption of the gospel, you know, and I think that's a good litmus test today.

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If your pastor can tolerate all kinds of abuses to the gospel and tolerate false gospels, but hey, he gets the law, right?

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Houston, you have a problem. Amen, dude. Houston, you have problems. Yeah. And I think it's interesting.

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I mentioned this yesterday. Paul's like, look, you've already received the gospel. I mean, the Old Testament is clear in leading us up into it.

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So there isn't like confusion on what it is because if I or an angel come and change this thing, right.

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And I had this thought in the pulpit, you know, because they were saying that they could transform like the, like Satan can transform himself as an angel of light.

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And in my moment, I'm like, I wonder if he thought like Satan would show up and somehow like imitate Paul. Like if I show up and I start talking another gospel, it's probably not me.

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I don't know if that's what he meant, but the point of it is, it's like people want to manipulate the gospel.

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It's because it is that powerful. And people in our churches, we as shepherds, we know the moment that happens, we go from, hey, you may not know that you're doing this, but you're kind of messing with the gospel.

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And they don't take that rebuke. It's a second, stronger rebuke. Hey, you need to hear me out now.

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You're messing with the gospel. And at that moment, I have felt my blood start to boil. I don't know if you belong here.

47:33

Well, I agree so much, like the comment that you just made. If what we are getting worked up over is not the clarity of the gospel, if it doesn't bother me as a pastor more than anything, then

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I see Christ being obscured. But I am concerned, or our pastors in general are concerned, or even our congregation as a whole, we are so worked up over secondary and tertiary matters, or matters of wisdom and conscience.

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Or how to vote. Right, like how you vote. We're coming up on an election cycle. Head coverings. Head coverings, how you vote, how you arrange your household, how you school your kids.

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We could go on and on and on, right? If we are so concerned that we get this right, or if we seek to build unity on debatable matters,

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God help us. We've missed it. To your point, Houston, you've got a problem. We should be most concerned, and we should be most severe in our posture and tone when we fear that the gospel is being confused, when law and gospel are being collapsed, when

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Christ is being obscured from view. Because that is what the evil one would have happen, that people would not see

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Christ clearly for the sake of all these other good things. You're describing,

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I'm going to kick a can, it's got so many dents in it. But Together for the Gospel is a great example of this, where it got really frustrating, because it seemed like we were talking about everything about the gospel in these conferences and the blogs, and then the gospel was getting confused and skewed.

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And I know I'm impugning and digging on a lot of people, but part of that is the frustration for me in that the one thing that we should never have confusion on is the gospel.

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And it seems like today that is where there is the least amount of clarity. We're demanding clarity on eschatology.

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Well, think about what your address is again. What does Satan want to do? He even attacks the word gospel.

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So we have slapped gospel in everything. We've slapped it on gospel, coalition.

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We've put it everywhere. And in some of these outfits and some of these organizations, they themselves have completely undermined the very meaning of the word that they have used to identify themselves.

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So it just creates massive dilution as to what the gospel really is.

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Objective work of Christ for us, outside of us. And I want to go back and be careful

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I'm not impugning a lot of men that I know are godly and love God in these organizations. I'm just saying the evil one is this good, but at times when we state this is what we're for, it's easy to get off track.

50:09

Yeah, unless we have a self -conscious laser focus on this issue, on the clarity.

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It does. And history, church history helps us. As we read creeds, confessions, traditions, history, all those things are so helpful because we can look back through the centuries and see that this really has always been the issue.

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And if we do not have a laser focus, and we do not as leaders in particular, and as preachers of God's word, if it's not, all right, there is the mark and I am not going to take my gaze off of that thing.

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There's going to be all kinds of stuff that happens in my own life personally, in the lives of the saints in my local church, other maybe parachurch ministries

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I'm associated with. That's fine. Those things are going to happen. Those things are going to ebb and flow, but we are going there and we will not deviate from that.

50:57

That has to be the conviction. You know, you were talking about the conviction to lead. You better have that one in the church or we are going to go astray because it is so easy to drift away.

51:09

And then we look up in a year or five or ten and it's like, what are we doing? Yeah, I think this is what's so refreshing about this weekend's conference and spending time with you,

51:20

Chris, is that... And this conversation right now. Man, there are times you do feel like you're crazy. Yeah, you do.

51:26

Or you feel like you're wrong. Yeah, that's what I mean. You're wrong. Maybe I got this wrong. Lots of other people got it right.

51:33

You've got bigger channels and bigger names because you feel sometimes very alone. Well, then you receive criticisms and they're not like simple criticisms.

51:43

They're like, you guys are preaching. Basically, you're creating people who are going to live lives that are really grotesque in the eyes of God.

51:54

That's what they're saying. Your ministry creates grotesqueness. They're already doing that. I know. Come on, where have you been?

52:02

We always say you never need any help sinning. And the preaching of Christ never caused anyone to sin.

52:08

We've said all that before. You can be made to feel wrong. Not only your preaching, your teaching, the way you're whatever, is going to produce licentiousness and just debauchery and make people feel coddled in it or whatever.

52:20

But there's also this earnest, sincere thing from people that mean well, where it's like, guys, open your eyes.

52:31

We've seen so much wreckage in the lives of the saints. You need to be talking about this issue and this issue and this issue.

52:38

If you don't tell people how to A, B, or C, if you don't talk about this a lot, they're not going to know what to do and it's going to ruin their family.

52:45

It's going to ruin their whatever. You know what I mean? People say that. I'm going to say something that, well, I don't want to make a broad characterization here, but I can say this at least in experience in ministry now for 20 years.

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Everyone's a sinner. We're all capable of doing things that could ruin. If God keeps us to love our wives, maintain our ministries, and we don't mess it up, that's all grace because we could all do that very easily.

53:15

But those ministries of those men who have been heavy -handed with the law, crushing everyone with the law, that's where I have seen actually the most antinomianism.

53:26

So in other words, where I have seen the greatest perversions come out in ministries have been for those championing the law of God in that kind of way and very much attacking gospel -centered preaching and message.

53:45

Like legitimate gospel. Yeah. I'm not saying that's across the board, but my experience has been those who have been the loudest, most obnoxious legal preachers have been the ones that I have seen fall the hardest.

53:56

More the people underneath their ministry. So I grew up in the IFB world where it's hard preaching, like hard preaching, fire and brimstone.

54:05

And what people don't understand when you say things like this is that they look at these churches and they're like, dude, these people, they're wearing suits and ties and dresses and they look all clean.

54:13

I said, no, no, no. It's what they're doing and not telling you. You see, what happens is the law can't change the heart.

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So they hide their sin to the moment to then God finally exposes it. But in the church on Sunday morning, everybody looks clean.

54:27

So they live duplicitous lives. And we know that duplicity ends up, you get exposed eventually, right?

54:33

And this is what we're trying to say is we're trying to expose the sin and we're calling the sinner to come deal with their sin by the means of grace.

54:45

We don't want people to hide their sin. But law preaching causes you to hide it.

54:52

It actually doesn't. It causes you to repent. This is why Romans says the kindness of God was meant to lead you to repentance.

54:58

It's actually a great hindrance to sanctification, this kind of thing that we're talking about. Mindful of Hebrews, where in 1

55:04

John, I'm kind of mashing some things together in my mind. I mean, when we sin, right? He's faithful and just to forgive us. So, Lord, forgive me and cleanse me from all unrighteousness.

55:12

But also, I often ask the Lord, I trust you guys do too, like cleanse my conscience, right?

55:18

That I might serve the living God, right? And the Lord Jesus has accomplished that objectively. It's like,

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Lord, I'm in need of your grace and your mercy to apply that to my heart even now, because I'm plagued.

55:30

That's the kind of freedom that we need to then live unto him. I'm a defeatist by heart, right?

55:37

Well, I messed up. I'm going to go the whole way. Since I made that... The conscience cleanse removes that from you. Right. Exactly.

55:43

Since I made that statement about legal... I also want to say this too. I mean, I have clearly seen ministries where guys have latched onto the gospel and so abused it to justify what they want to do.

55:56

That happens. Can I interject for a second? The flesh does that. Tullian was his name.

56:02

Yeah, right. But can I interject there? He latched onto a section of the gospel, because the gospel leads to freedom from sin.

56:11

I agree. So you know what's missing? But what I'm saying is, there were good gospel messages preached there that were very...

56:20

First use of the law... But they were not finished. So I would say two thoughts here. First use of the law...

56:26

But I agree with you. First use of the law, if we're going to talk about Tullian, if we're going to name his name, really good on the first use of the law, denied the third use.

56:33

He did. That's significant. That's significant. Two, what I think goes missing...

56:38

And I'm not even going to talk law right now. I'm talking gospel. What I think goes missing in that scenario is union with Christ.

56:47

We don't preach that, not just for justification. Again, this is where Christ and his benefits...

56:52

Don't pull them apart, man. It's like you preach union with the Lord Jesus Christ unto not just justification, but unto sanctification, unto glorification.

57:01

It's the entirety of the Christian life. You and I both have expressed our affection for Robert Haldane's commentary on Romans. It's just incredible.

57:07

And I think my own synopsis of some of the things that he wrote there, it's like, listen, the sanctification of the

57:13

Christian rests on the same foundation and comes from the same source as his justification. And that's union with Christ.

57:19

And that's what I think is sorely missing in what you just described. No, you guys are absolutely right.

57:25

It's also missing with the legal preacher, too. That's right. But Paul says, and this is why Paul says to support with worship in Romans 6 .1,

57:31

shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? That's what they're saying. That's right. That's not a message that we advance.

57:38

But then his response... Wrong conclusion of the gospel. It's wrong conclusion of the gospel. That's an abuse. Absolutely. That's an abuse. And that's where these guys...

57:44

Because everyone puts it in camps today, that's... We do bristles because they say, well, you were reformed.

57:50

You're covenant over that. And then they'll say, you're radical, Grace. You just start throwing... It's the label.

57:56

Everyone gets put in a camp today. And without seriously engaging what the scriptures are saying.

58:03

Exactly. Well, and this is why we have to receive the accusation and the suffering. And it says in 1

58:09

Peter, it's like you're going to suffer. For the sake of the name. That's right. Right. I'm like, all right, if you're going to put me in that camp without hearing what I'm really saying,

58:14

I have to keep moving on. Like, I just, I can't. You could, you get the moment. If you're trying to, if you're trying to deal with all your detractors, they're not really wanting to change.

58:22

They're just wanting a pound of flesh. Yeah. That's all they're wanting. It's a self -righteous. If they were really concerned about us, they would put their arms around and say, hey, brother,

58:29

I'm really kind of concerned about what you're doing. You know, I'll say this a little bit of a side note, but I think it's important in this moment.

58:36

People criticize me all the time for, and you, for how we've dealt with Doug Wilson. Saying we should have done that.

58:42

Like put a, hey, brother, the problem is with Wilson is he's been under the same scrutiny for 20 years. Like, hey, bro, you need to change this.

58:48

So I'm 20 years down the road going, hey, look, I'm just here to kind of refresh this. He's gained new light in that.

58:54

This is different from me considering, like, I think you made a misstep here. Like, Chris, if you said something and I was like,

59:03

I'd call you on the phone. Like, I'm a little concerned about what you said. Right. That's how that should be handled. But if you, if you're like publishing it and defending it and that, that, that changes.

59:12

Well, not only that, church courts, the NAPARC all condemn that theology. So it's like, you actually had ecclesiastical courts that said, this is, this is, this is out of bounds from what we believe.

59:23

Right. And so there, there is a moment where Justin and I have had to tune things out going, they're not listening to what we're saying.

59:30

And it's okay for us to say it. We're going to go ahead and just keep doing it. And I feel like Paul at times says this, like he's receiving these detractions.

59:37

He's like, like, I'm just going to keep preaching Christ. I got to keep moving on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, we stay the course.

59:44

That's right. Yeah. No. So this is a, this is a great, I've enjoyed this thoroughly. Yeah. I really don't want to shut it down, but I know we have to.

59:51

Yeah. It's about an hour. You know, I, but I think, you know, what is the ultimate aim and goal that we have in ministry?

01:00:00

To end on that note, I mean, it is to see all those whom we minister to reconciled,

01:00:06

Colossians 1, every man presented perfect in Christ. Amen. Right. And that's our goal in preaching. That's our goal, what we're trying to do so that they might enjoy a reconciled, you know, status or a place where they know that they are favored by God, that God has given them everything they need, that he loves them, has, has cared for them, has forgiven them.

01:00:27

That's our goal in ministry. If that's not your goal in ministry, you know, then, then you're not ministering in the demonstration of the spirit and power of the

01:00:36

New Testament. I think as pastors, because that's what, what's who we are, right? The three of us goals in ministry.

01:00:43

We're going to love our people and, you know, we're, we're just, we're under shepherds and we're sheep too.

01:00:48

I mean, it's kind of, we're, we have multiple metaphorical identities or whatever, but, you know, we're with the sheep and we're going to just keep like,

01:00:56

Hey, let's keep going. Let's keep going. There he is. Look at him. Look to him. He loves you. He's for us. Let's keep going.

01:01:02

Keep your eyes on him. Right. And don't, I know you're distracted by that brother. I know that you're heartbroken over that sister, but look at him.

01:01:07

We're going to keep going. And then, you know, mindful of like the analogy of the Jordan river crossing into the promised land. It's like, man, we're going to, we're going to usher people to the banks.

01:01:15

Right. And it's like, and you can, you can hear them singing on the other side. Right. And we're going to lead you here.

01:01:21

And that's the work of a pastor. And so it's like, yes, law, wisdom, all that. We're going to talk about those things, but my goodness, what's going to get us there.

01:01:29

Yeah. It's, it's Christ for us and his love for us. And that's what we keep heralding. Well, Dr.

01:01:35

Godfrey said something last night about Thessalonians when Paul says I was blameless or I was like, you know,

01:01:40

I was righteous amongst, and I love how he explained that. And as pastors, I know all three of us want that.

01:01:45

Like amongst our people, right. We want to be blameless in that we held to Christ. Yes. Yes. And that, and our responsibility to held to Christ and bring you to Christ at the end of our life, our aim is that we were faithful.

01:01:56

We were blameless in that. That doesn't mean we were sinless. No, but we didn't deviate. We didn't deviate from the mission.

01:02:03

It's the whole council. We preached to the whole council. We were faithful. But Paul says I was faithful to give you what you need with the aim of preaching

01:02:10

Christ in him crucified. That's right. That's right. That's good. Well, this has been great. Good discussion. Good to have you guys.

01:02:15

You know, Escondido is always sunny. Always sunny in Escondido. Bro, it's snowing again in Tennessee right now.

01:02:23

Sunny. This place, you know, you know what the name Escondido means, right? No. You're going to tell us, I'm sure. It's hidden.

01:02:29

Hidden. You got to come to this place. It's hidden to find sun. There you go. Anyway, I thought you,

01:02:34

I thought you were like, I gotta go find it. I'm just making it up. I'm just making it up. Dude, you sold it well.

01:02:40

You sold it well. There is this like picture out there. You guys know what it means, right? There is this picture with Eric Clapton.

01:02:46

You can find it and another guy. Another, I should know who it is. It's a famous picture. It's on the back of an old truck.

01:02:51

They have their guitar and it says, you see, it's not heading to Escondido. So that's cool. Anyways, well, good to, it was so good to have the conference.

01:03:00

Good to have you guys here. Hey, can we do a real quick show? We haven't done this in years. Can we do a shout out? We've had two pretty good restaurants.

01:03:07

So if you're in the area and you're listening to this, either one, either pod. What was the burger joint we went to? Burger bench.

01:03:13

Dude, that was good. Tasty, man. And then what was last night? Lisa, Chicken Lisa. Yes. If you haven't tried those out.

01:03:19

There you go. Go check them out. Come to Escondido. You get restaurant, you get restaurant recommendations. Yes. Very good. All right.

01:03:24

All right, brothers. Good to have you on today. Hey, everyone. Before you go, Justin and I first wanted to say thank you.

01:03:29

And if this has been encouraging to you in any way, please feel free to share it. But we also need your support.

01:03:35

And it's when you give that it really helps us financially reach more people. So the next time you consider giving to a ministry, we hope that you would pray about Theocast and partner with us as we share the gospel around the world.