The Power of the Gospel (w/ Chris Gordon) | Theocast

The Gospel as God’s Power, Not Human Reason

Paul tells the church, I'm not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God. He has to warn us not to be ashamed about it, because it consumes something that is far beyond our universe, God's power.

What does that even mean? The modern Christian has a hard time wrapping our head around how words can contain God's power. That's what this episode is about. How do we enjoy the benefits of the gospel?

And really what Paul is saying is that the world may look at it, and that's something to mock, but the Christian looks at it and says, this is God's power for my life. We had a wonderful conversation around this subject with Dr. Chris Gordon from Abound in Grace Radio.

And this is a post conversation that we had after the conference, which is a conference on suffering and the return of Christ. All of that is available on YouTube or an app or on our website if you want to listen to the conference, the lectures, the panel discussions.

We hope you enjoy. If you're new to Theocast, you may not have heard of this word. It's called pietism. Have you ever felt like the Christian life is a heavy burden versus rest and joy? That you wake up worrying about how well you're going to perform instead of thinking about what Christ has done for you.

It's dread versus joy, really. That's pietism. Pietism causes Christians to look in on themselves and find their hope not in what Christ has done, but what they're doing. We have a little book for you.

It's free. We want you to download it and we're going to explain the difference between pietism and what we call confessionalism. Reform theology, really, how it is that we walk by faith, seeing the joy of Christ.

And when Jesus says, come to me and I will give you rest. What does that look like? You can download it on our website. Just go to Theocast .org.

The Gospel’s Power Is Hard to Grasp

All right. We are back with Theocast and Abound in Grace together. This was you guys realize this was a year ago. We did. We did this. And it was quick. That was like, you know, our first introduction to each other.

And it was love at first sight.

I mean, that's how we admire one another from afar.

It was funny how fast, like, we got down the theological trail.

That's what it was like. Theological love.

Yeah. Well, but seriously, it was like just so encouraging just to like feed off each other. What about this? What about that? And we left like, wow, that was encouraging.

That was fun. It was worth the trips.

And then Dan just spent his time with Dan Borg.

Yeah. Dan Borg. Yeah. Yeah. We should have had him on. We have another spot. So, well, we obviously did a conference yesterday and we want to talk about the power of the gospel. Right. That's what that's what we want to do.

Yeah. We like talking about that.

That's it's a good it's a good thing. Yeah. Right. Paul does say it is the power of God and salvation for all who believe. But that's a hard concept for people for some reason.

Why? I'll be frank. It's hard for me. I'm trying to wrap my mind around. Yeah. Right. Right. Because just because if you do grasp the reality of that, it's like, OK, you can tap in. There's nothing more powerful than God.

Right. And he hands it over to you. Goes here. You can have it for your benefit, for your good. Here you go. Have it. Right. And you're just kind of like, so how does that work? Yeah. You know, because then he goes, well, it's for justification, sanctification, glorification for all of life.

And it's it's not it's not. Here are the keys to unlock the gym so you can go make yourself strong. He goes, I'm strong in my power and it's yours. Right. And that's really what the conversation I've been just geeking out about it lately.

I've been thinking about preaching. I've been thinking about shepherding and pastoring. I'm thinking about my own heart and the promises of the gospel and thinking about listeners of both podcasts where Paul makes that statement.

And if we're all honest, there is like a. Really wish I understood that more.

You said something yesterday I thought was really helpful at the conference that, you know, if it all makes sense to you, you're probably not understanding it correctly. I think that's exactly right, because what we're encountering is the wisdom of God, which turns everything on its head.

Right. Right.

There's nothing in the wisdom of God that human reasoning can figure out. It has to come from divine help by the spirit to even grasp this. Right. And that's the whole point you're making.

Well, I mean, taken on its own terms, we all agree it beautifully hangs together, meaning the gospel, God's plan of salvation. But what we are arguing is the human reason component that you just said.

Right. Like one way to frame this is as we trace the redemptive arc of scripture and God's plan from all of eternity. And you sketch that out for people. You hold it out to them and you ask, now, how many of us would have done it this way?

How many of us could have conceived such a thing?

A plan like this?

None of us. It breaks our brains. None of us would have done it this way.

Right.

None of us could have ever, with our wisdom, planned it this way. And that's what we mean. That's what you meant, John, in saying if it makes sense to you, then you're probably not preaching the gospel.

Right.

Because human reason does not comprehend this. I mean, it's spiritual things discerned, right? First Corinthians 2. That's exactly right.

Exactly.

I have been at times in my own church. I don't know if you guys have felt it. I know you have because we've had comments about it, but you're preaching the gospel and in the back of your gut, you want to create like an asterisk, like an explanation.

But that's that feeling we're talking about.

Yeah.

Right.

All right. Because you could feel people, you know, even, you know, you want to say, well, and there's a need for obedience. That's that part of the gospel that's that you're actually, no, there's not.

There has to be an end. We always want to endlessly qualify.

Thank you.

Yeah, that's the word. That's what we're trying to do.

Add the conditions and qualifications to take down because we're so worried about perception of getting hit on the other angle of some theological air when we can't just let the point that we're making speak for itself.

That's right.

Right.

So we dilute it and it loses the very power we're trying to achieve.

Right.

You basically nuance it to death. Yes. And it loses its punch and its power.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because it's overqualified.

Yeah, I agree.

The Law, the Gospel, and the Need to Preach Christ

Yeah.

And I was listening to Dr. Bob yesterday with Dr. Godfrey, and he suffocated us for a long time.

Just law.

Like, and it was great because it was the righteousness of Christ when he comes to expose us all.

Right.

And you can feel that. And that's when all the air got sucked out of your lungs, you're longing for the fresh, pure air of the gospel. And when you suck it in, you're realizing, I don't want anything else.

Right.

Right.

What unfortunately, though, is if, like, and he did it right. Like he completely sucked everything out of you in the law. And then it's like, all right, now here's Christ. Here's the gospel. Unfortunately, what we try and do is we want, we don't want to, you know, suck the air out of everybody.

So we'll do law and the gospel. Like, well, here's how, here's how it kind of both makes sense. And then you get no power because all you get is exhaustion. And that's part of where I can even feel it in my own preaching, where relying on the Holy Spirit and relying on the gospel to transform people.

There are times you just kind of want to walk over and just, you know, tap someone upside the head and like, hey, man, you need to get this.

Yeah.

And use my own strength, my own wisdom, use the law.

Right.

You can't do that.

Right.

We have to use the first use of the law to drain the sinner and then lead them to Christ and then trust that leading them to Christ will then do its work of transformation. And just recently, I was, it was so refreshing over the, just this conference and this conversations that we've had where, you know, when Hebrews says, like, consider how to build one another up.

There are times this weekend, I'm just kind of like, I'm not crazy. Like the gospels, they can do this.

Right.

The gospel is sufficient. You know, grace is abounding to do this for us.

To the chief of sinners, right? We're always learning and growing, you know, as Christians, but even for the three of us as pastors, as preachers, and I think our preaching in different seasons of our ministries takes on, to use an old word, like a different tincture.

And that's because of the things the Lord is teaching us.

Yeah.

That's a good thing.

Right.

Right.

And so I've been, I think, reconvicted. John and I've talked some about this, but I'm happy to say this with you, Chris, and we can maybe interact over some of it. Convicted again of some of the things that Sinclair Ferguson writes about in his wonderful book, The Whole Christ, pertaining to the Marrow controversy and all of that, that went down in the church in Scotland in the 18th century.

And his observation, particularly regarding Thomas Boston and how Boston was adamant, and the Marrow men in general, were adamant about how we ought not ever separate Christ from his benefits.

So good.

And so for me, not that I think I was necessarily doing this, but it's been on the front of my mind and in my heart as a preacher, and I even aimed to do some of this yesterday, is not to preach justification or sanctification, glorification as the gospel.

Those are benefits. Those are wonderful things. But first and foremost, to hold out Jesus Christ to sinners and say, look at him, behold him, trust in him, cast yourself upon him. He loves you. He is for you.

He is with you. And obviously that brings people to Christ in faith for the first time, but that also continues to sustain and nourish and fan the flames of affection in the hearts of the saints.

Right?

And that's something that has been helpful in my own mind and heart in recent months and even conversations amongst our pastors.

Faith as a Divine Gift in the Midst of Indwelling Sin

Yeah, yeah.

I think it really shows, though, how impossible faith is apart from it being a divine gift, because, you know, that's just too good to be true, right? And so if it's and that's what we're talking about when we talk about, you know, does it make sense?

It's too good to be true. It's too good to be true because it doesn't seem to touch on the experience I had, which you addressed yesterday.

Sure.

The experience that I have with indwelling sin.

Right.

And the continued indwelling sin, the corruption. Yeah, I think it was Zanke, Jerome Zanke, that made this great distinction in Romans 7 that you developed, I thought really well yesterday, that listen, there's a difference in the Christian.

In the Christian, he doesn't sin according to the whole man. It's in his fleshly, sinful nature that he sins, but his desire, his desire because he's renewed in the inward man, his inner being, is to love God with all of his heart, soul, mind and strength.

But if you're touching on experience and because there's so much continued struggle, even failure, it's really hard for the center, apart from the grace of God, it's impossible forever to see and embrace this.

You will always say, no, that's impossible that God could love me or it's impossible that I'm right with him.

That's the fear or the suspicion, whatever word we want to use, the thing that haunts us, that if we're all honest, it's like, yeah, that's always kind of there. And that's the one that's always kind of in the background of my mind.

It's always kind of in the recesses of my heart. John Owen, in communion with the Trident of God, he makes it plain that it is normal for us to have hard thoughts of God in our flesh and blood.

Right.

And we think, I said this yesterday, we think it's presumptuous. You know, I ought not get flesh and blood, creaturely, sinner, all these things. I ought not think of God as kind and tender and gentle and loving.

That's I'm I'm way out over my skis. You know, I shouldn't shouldn't talk like that. And that's why we need the constant preaching of the gospel to be reminded of the fact like you just use the language of there's no way that that we're good.

Right.

God and myself, there's no way that he could really love me. Oh, but he does.

That may be for the guy over there.

But right.

And always there's a cloud always.

Yeah.

And I think, you know, maybe there are some out there whose constitution is the way the Lord has wired them. That's not a struggle. But I know the saints in our in our local church, well over 90 percent of them, myself included, would say, yeah, these are things that plague me.

And I need to be reminded and I need to meditate. I mean, in my own heart and mind, as I consider the scriptures, I consider Jesus. I need to be shown. I need to think more often of how the Lord is pleased with me, how he loves me.

He's for me.

He's with me.

And this has been accomplished by Christ because he has he has accomplished peace, reconciliation, all of the curse, all of the judgment. He's taken it. There is no more anger. There is no more wrath.

So those things for you go.

The Gospel’s Comfort for the Dying and the Accusing Conscience

One one support to that is years ago I was sitting a man in my congregation. He was a tough man. He was he was a man who fought in wars, got brain cancer, and he didn't last long. He was he was dead within like a month or two.

Gosh.

But so I went to his house, you know, and I got to have, you know, pastorally your concern. Where where is this guy?

Yeah.

How's he how's he handling this?

Like, bro, how's your soul?

Yeah.

How's your soul? You know, we we have concerns about that. We want to we want to we want to minister Christ to people in their suffering, especially in their deathbeds.

Right.

And to see what kind of are they confident? Are they having doubts? How can we minister? So I go into I go into the room and I sit down with him. And this is this may be one of the you talk about constitutions.

That's what I am.

Right, right, right.

Maybe one of the toughest men I've come across.

Right.

So I say to him, I say, listen, brother, you're going to die. Mike, there's no way out of this. You know, they've given you this terminal. You've got you got a month. It's that bad spread all throughout your brain.

I said. I said, how are you doing? I said, you have any fears or doubts? And he looks at me. And he says, none. Something's wrong with that. That's my initial thought.

Got to have some doubt.

You got to have some. You got to have something there that tells me because that's not. And I thought I thought to myself, I've wrestled over that over the years. So then I asked him, I said, well, what do you want me to preach at your funeral?

And he said, Psalm 49. Psalm 49. That's like a gun in my head right now.

Come again.

So I go home and I read Psalm 49 and it's a contrast between the wicked and the righteous and how the righteous. Have their souls ransomed.

Hmm.

It's so beautiful in that song. And right then and there, I saw why he could say no, no, no, because he was trusting in Christ and, and, and I don't think everyone has that experience. I don't think everyone has that kind of confidence due to constitutional issues, due to struggles.

I think there's different levels, but at the same time, any hearty faith, that's true faith receives all praise.

Amen. Yeah. Amen.

My constitution is a little bit different. I shared this with Justin that I, uh, when I was in the dispensational world underneath the preaching, when I was 12 and I get out of bed every night and pray, cause I was worried, like I was going to get raptured without me.

Sure.

But once I learned the gospel from a reformed perspective, it's like my heart just fell into rest.

Yeah.

Where I struggle and kind of where I wanted to go with this a little bit. Um, Peter says in this, you rejoice, you know, in modern day preaching, you rejoice when you do well.

Right.

You did.

You've done well. You should rejoice. Don't he had, there's a verse that comes before this. He says first Peter one, five, who by God's power are being guarded through a faith for salvation, such as bread in that you rejoice.

We always want to look at how, all right, I've done well this week. I've done well this month. And then I want to rejoice. And Peter's like, oh no, no. In, in the good, in the bad, you always have reasons to rejoice because it's God's power that's keeping.

And I love this. This is so important because he says who by God's power are being guarded through faith.

It's faith.

So for instance, I, sometimes I try to make conversations with people. I said, do you believe that Christ literally rose from the grave and was victorious for you, conquering all of condemnation for you and his righteousness is now what God clothes you with.

But you believe that reality. So let me change this for you. I said, what if you had an actual conversation with God and it says, I love you, I've forgiven you. What you're telling me is I don't know if he meant it or I don't know.

That he's really said that to me.

Well, but let's pretend you did. I'm saying, let's pretend you really had that conversation because you cannot believe that to be true unless it's been granted to you by God's power. Your faith in Christ is a grant.

It's been granted to you. You cannot put faith in Christ, even if it is a grain of salt. You cannot do that unless it's by God's power. And so what I tell people is you're believing that God is duplicitous.

Then that is not a direction that you want to go, right?

You think that he's altogether like you.

That's right.

Right.

Basically.

Right.

God does not change.

But that is nonetheless the struggle of our people that we're constantly pulling them out of.

Of course.

Right.

Which is why I think we have been commanded by Paul to be in season and out of season, constantly revealing the power of God.

Amen.

I often go back in my own mind. I think it was just the season in life in which I've read this. You guys know how that is. Like you, you read a certain thing at a certain point in your life and you never forget it.

Yeah.

There's in Richard Sibb's wonderful work, the Bruce Reed, you know, there's the account that he gives us towards the end of this hypothetical dialogue between a believer and Satan, you know, and Satan's accusing the believer of the, the weakness of the believer's faith and of how little the believer has loved, excuse me, and all of the accusations that Satan is hurling at this weary, weak Christian.

As Sibb's has built this whole work, you know, Jesus is the one who does not break Bruce Reed's, right? He doesn't put out smoldering wicks, right? He's effectively, he's gentle and lowly, right? To use our modern vernacular.

And as Satan says to the believer, yeah, but you know, you, you've got no love.

You got no faith.

The believer says, you know, you're right. Just, just a flicker of faith and love. Satan says, well, Christ will regard that. To which the response is, oh, but, but he will, he will cherish it. That flicker, he will cherish it and he will nurture it until he has brought judgment to victory.

Right.

And that's the word. And that's, I mean, I have chills saying it because like that's, that's the peace and the security that the gospel alone gives, I mean, that's the power of God that even the great accuser.

And that's not a hypothetical metaphorical thing. I mean, that's real at the great accuser himself. He's got nothing because Christ will cherish us and he, he sustains and he nourishes, man, it's, it's the best news in the world, just going back on our.

Trials, Providence, and the Power of God in Suffering

Conference a little bit, um, continuing to read, Peter says in this, you rejoice. And I didn't finish the verse though. Now for a little while, if necessary, you've been grieved by various trials. So he removes the trial saying the trials aren't the results of your disobedience or the results of God's favor being removed.

God's power. So rest upon you in the midst of your trials, because so you can rejoice even though you're in a trial so that the test of doing this of your face more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire may be found as result in praise and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Right.

So we often think problems in my life, God's favor and love is removed. And Peter's like, Oh no, it doesn't work like that.

Yeah.

Because in your trials, you still have reasons to rejoice because it's through those trials that God actually reveals his power.

Right.

That's right.

One of the best doctrines, I think one of my favorite is the doctrine of providence.

Yeah.

And I think, I think, yeah. And, and Bob Godfrey last night really hit it out of the park on that point. Then, you know, when he's talking to the Thessalonians who have are living in hope, but are suffering and being persecuted, you know, they can't see the whole picture.

Right.

But he, and he makes a startling claim in that passage that listen, your suffering vindicates the righteous judgment of God.

That was so powerful.

It's so powerful.

That's right.

I mean, we encourage the, the listeners go back and listen to, to Dr. Godfrey's talk on that. So there's a purpose there. There's other purposes, but one of the things Bob asks, which I thought was just really a crucial insight into the text.

What if he had answered their prayers and taken away all their suffering and had taken it all away in the moment, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

That's right.

So there's a bigger picture to everything God has in his providence. He's working out a marvelous plan. He even talked about giving us time to grow, you know, in love for him and in sanctification in all those things.

That's, that's a blessing he's given us. In other words, yeah. Suffering is difficult. We always live in this hope of future glory, but there's a lot of good things happening through this that the Lord has told us.

Yeah.

I mean, what's it, is it Paul who says don't count the patience of the Lord?

Yeah.

Do you guys know what verse is that? As slow, as slow, as giving us the promise as we would, as we would consider.

A slowness.

Yeah.

That he, yeah.

He's being patient towards us all that we all might repent.

Yeah.

Right.

And he talked about, as a lot of part, it's like time for us to grow, but also that all of the elect, you know, and I love his joke. It was kind of like, if God would come back in first century, what would have.

Happened to all of you?

He goes, more importantly, what would happen to me? So I love it. 80 years old.

He still has a sense of humor, but the power of the gospel, I mean, and this is, this is what we're, you know, and even our Lord is to give us an inspired text. I think of the man who says, Lord, I believe help my unbelief, you know, what a taxi Calvin comments on that text and says, yeah, this isn't, this isn't what it should be, but isn't it remarkable that God inspired this.

For those who know they're really struggling, even with, even though they might have faith is of a mustard seed, they still struggle with doubt and unbelief.

That's right.

You know, that's right. And the Lord helps us in that. That's how powerful the gospel is constantly.

He does.

The Gospel’s Gracious Words and the Rejection of Grace

Yeah.

And I, what I, what I love about the ministries that we get to participate in is that, um, we don't talk about the gospel because sometimes you say the gospel is powerful, but that's, I could try and explain to somebody of a plane ride that's never been on a plane, like just that feeling that you have.

And it's like, well, it's kind of hard to describe, you know, and when, when someone hears the power of the gospel, there can be a disconnect, uh, because when you realize the gospel is the entire story of humanity and how, like for instance, in the garden, God has created, uh, imperfection, this relationship with him, and then it comes to just an utter crash, right?

And it is full of hopelessness based upon the actions of men. And the promise of the gospel is God restores everything that was lost. And I love this. And more, we gain more in Christ than we ever had in Adam.

We gain more in him than we lost in Adam.

That's right. And the, and the story, the gospel is the story of the work of God. Like that's the thing that people forget. It's the story of the unwavering, faithful work of God from beginning to end for all of life and all of eternity.

And the book is so long, you can't sit and read the story of the gospel in one sitting, but yet you can explain it to a child in five minutes. It's overwhelming, you know? So it's like, it's, we, we, sometimes we think that the gospel is so simple.

It's like, Oh, it's Jesus death, brother and resurrection. No, yes. And no, it is his faithfulness because this is some of what I was arguing for yesterday. A claim is only as powerful as his evidence, right?

You know, I am the greatest golfer in the world. I can make that claim. Well, what are you going to ask me?

Yeah.

What's the evidence on me?

Right.

And God goes, I am the greatest saver in the world. And he slaps a Bible down and goes, you read my evidence, right? That's powerful, right? That's overwhelming. And yet people are like showing up on Sunday and say, Hey, tell me how to be.

Better.

I was like, you should hear how God never fails. That's what you should hear. You want to hear how not to fail?

You've missed it.

You need to be looking to the God that doesn't fail and then listen to what he thinks of you. Versus how can I be better this way? I'm all for sanctification and obedience and it has a place and faithfulness as.

Dr.

Bob says, and faithfulness is important, right? But the faithfulness has to be in light of what God has done for me, not me trying to show God I deserve to be in this relationship with you.

Well, talk about the power of God. I mean, I think we've said these things before. I mean, collectively, sanctification is wonderful. It's the work of God in and through us. And if we want to see sanctification, how's it going to happen?

Certainly we need the law because we're not going to know what righteousness looks like without the law. We're not going to know what's good for my neighbor without the law. I'm not going to know what's going to be good for my life, what's going to wreck my life, et cetera.

What honors the Lord? I need the law for that. So the law guides sanctification.

Amen.

But only the heralding of Christ is the power, right? Only Jesus union with Christ is the power unto sanctification. So like we'll say on the front end, in terms of first use of the law, the law cannot give life.

It can only kill. Well, when it comes to sanctification, the law cannot transform. It can only guide. And so being guys that care about godliness and care about sanctification and the transformation of the life of the Christian, well, brothers, let's preach Jesus.

We want sanctified people preach Christ. And I think a lot of times that's lost even amongst like well-intentioned, serious minded Christians who are well read, know some things that's lost on us because then again, we get back to that human reasoning piece because for us at a human level, we mess this up because, well, that doesn't make sense to me that to preach Jesus and to preach the law, not with a bunch of teeth and scariness for the believer, but to preach the law is the good thing that it is.

Holy, righteous, and good is the law and everything it commands. If I preach it that way and I say to the saints, like, look at the law, look at how.

Good that is.

Don't we want to live like that? And then I herald Christ to you, that in our human intuition, we're like, well, that's clearly not going to get it done.

That's right.

Yeah, because there has to be some edge, some threat. There's got to be some skin in the game. If this is really going to happen, I think that's a tool of the evil one.

I mean, to get up and preach a recipe from a cookbook and demand that one understand the recipe does not create the meal. It doesn't. It requires an action that in the end is well beyond our capabilities, right?