June 8, 2022 Show with Dr. Mark Ward on “King James Only-ism & Confessional Bibliology: Comparison & Contrast (& the Dangers of Both)” (Part 2)
June 8, 2022
Dr. MARK WARD (B.A., Bob Jones University; M.A., Ph.D., Bob Jones Seminary), author of multiple books, including, “AUTHORIZED: The USE & MISUSE of the KING JAMES BIBLE”, & faculty member at Reformed Baptist Seminary, who will address:
PART 2 of: “KING JAMES ONLY-ISM & CONFESSIONAL BIBLIOLOGY: COMPARISON & CONTRAST (& the DANGERS of BOTH)”
Transcript
Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown
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It's iron sharpens iron.
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of June 2022.
For those of you who missed last Wednesday's interview on June
1st with dr. Mark Ward who is our guest again today?
He earned his BA at Bob Jones University and his PhD at Bob Jones seminary.
I urge you to listen to that program after you listen to this live broadcast today.
It will help to make sense of a lot of what we are going to be discussing today.
I had such a fascinating discussion last week with dr. Ward on King James
only ism and confessional bibliology Comparison and contrast and the dangers of both
that I knew I had to have him back for a part two, especially since
the first interview was dominated by King James only ism and we really want to cut to the
core and Focus on confessional bibliology today but dr. Ward
is the author of Multiple books including authorized the
use and misuse of the King James Bible and Also a faculty member at Reformed Baptist Seminary
and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back for part two of our discussion.
Dr. Mark Ward is my honor and privilege.
I'm going to take the honor and privilege from you and keep it for myself.
Well, that is a joy to me to hear and Tell our listeners
again for especially for the sake of those who have not Heard part one yet our discussion
tell our listeners about Reformed Baptist Seminary.
Yeah, it
is not
actually through
teaching but
through grading
many many men in
men who are working a full -time job.
But you know training for ministry and love for the Bible.
They're willing,
you know different school
already in.
If anybody wants more details on Reformed Baptist Seminary go to RB seminary org.
RB seminary org.
Well, if you could at least summarize or do a recap in a
summary fashion of what we discussed last week which would
primarily be on the similarities and differences between King James only
ism and confessional bibliology and then we will Spend most of our time.
And hopefully most of our questions will be on confessional bibliology
Comparison and contrast and the dangers of both.
So if you will just to give us a recap give them a summary of the similarities and differences
of King James only ism and confessional bibliology and How they even
rose to be especially the latter.
Yeah, and I'll move
on to this for
one thing and they're using that
now whether they're
interpreting this
correctly
or not.
They
enter always
has a
confessional Bibliology.
I said last
time was ordained according but
I'm not in
a confessional denomination.
I respect confessional ism and I would be willing to be confessional.
It's just not where I am right now.
I care about what the Bible says and the best confessional book.
All the leaders in confessional Bibliology are making a biblical argument, you know much more
often than that's where they get their name.
That is a difference with King James only ism because King James only ism is largely independent on the middle Baptist.
I'll be anti Calvinist, but probably anti confessional most
typically not everybody.
There are exceptions.
That's a major difference.
Another major difference is that I feel that when
national bibliologists versus King James only it confessional bibliologist
Bibliology much more likely to have training.
In fact, wouldn't you say that many not?
I'm sorry to interrupt you but wouldn't you say that?
Meant in many cases perhaps the majority of cases the most ardent of King James only
is.
Don't even think it's a Way to spend your valuable time to learn the
original Hebrew and Greek.
They have right no use for it.
I'm saying in most cases the most ardent of King James only is.
Technically the that within King James only ism.
That's Ruckman ism.
We don't really need the Hebrew and Greek.
That is the way they just there are
certainly exceptions, but in general they don't.
I've called around the different You know independent from the middle Baptist King James only colleges
and them require any Hebrew
Generalizable to me.
Those are among the most significant
actually get down to the way lay people especially in pastors argue over this topic of
the Bible's text and translation.
They're appealing to the same proof text like Psalm 12
6 and 7 the words of the Lord are pure words.
You know purified in a furnace of earth thou shalt keep them.
Oh Lord thou shalt preserve them from this generation forever.
Matthew 5 18, you know, not a jot or a tittle or
O Lord.
Thy word is settled in heaven.
You know every word man shall not live by bread alone.
But every word that comes out and I have speaking James only ism and in
confession super eager to acknowledge.
What I'm about to say another massive similarity is
from bibliology actually after authorized came
out.
I think I had heard of it, but it just wasn't on my radar.
I started hearing from these guys and they're telling me.
Oh, we're very very different.
So don't lump us in with them.
Well, you know, I need to make sure that I'm really scrupulously honest in my description of these brothers.
So let me find out you know what they believe so I entered their Facebook group and was talking with them for a while.
Peter Gurry of Phoenix Seminary in the Texan Canon Institute was in there with me for a while and Very shortly.
I came to see and to feel frankly that The tone and spirit of
IFB King James only ism that you see online is exactly the same as confessional bibliology and
I've actually aimed at me from
from the lay and pastor.
So let me let me name some exceptions here.
Robert true love who's a leader in confessional bibliology.
He never treated me that way.
He was gracious to me.
We disagreed but we can have a man named Christian McShackery.
He's a Jeff Riddles.
Certainly.
Who's probably the top leader and Peter Van Cleek jr.
I'm naming off some of the major names They have not offered.
I'll just get one
more that I'm talking
to a lawyer.
I'll let you ask your next another similar
even though confessional Bibliology does 10 tons of
exceptions to that and lots of people with whom
I tried to have a conversation about trans and They changed the subject to
text in my book authorized.
I have to argue that I shouldn't have to talk about sexual criticism because I
actually don't mind.
If someone uses the Texas, but
if they use the New King James or modern English version that use the same base text as the King James
version then I'm satisfied with that because what what's not clear in Scripture is exactly How we adjudicate the
differences among manuscripts of the Greek New Testament.
What is clear?
Is that?
Edification requires intelligibility.
First Corinthians 14 teaches that whatever text you're you know You can
actually understand contemporary English our English and when I try to have that conversation in King James only
ism They won't do it.
They simply refuse them often without realizing it in
confessional bibliology, you know and with it They change the subject.
I think they are realizing it better, but they will not stay on topic and talk about transparency
than the similarities.
Well, I'm going to announce our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a question
for dr Mark Ward.
Submitted to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
Give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of Residence.
If you live outside the USA, we are hoping to get more questions on confessional
bibliology from our fellow Reformed Brethren.
But we will accept questions on the King James only issue as well.
And well, please for the average Christian because although I have
theologians and scholars and seminary presidents and seminary faculties
Among those listening to my broadcast every day Most of
our listeners are Just your average ordinary Christians who are making important
decisions in life.
They may be faced with Either remaining in a church or leaving a
church that has endorsed Confessional bibliology or they may be just looking for a church
After becoming reformed.
And they're faced with options whether it's a church that uses a modern
translation from a pulpit and the pew Bibles or NASB or
some other modern translation.
Or a congregation that is strictly a confessional bibliology Advocating
church there's going to be obviously serious decisions to make that may affect
how they learn and grow in the faith and So I'd like you
to lay out The the primary
reasons why this Issue of confessional bibliology
has become a concern of yours and I know that Your concern is echoed by
quite a number of other folks like dr James R. White of Alpha and Omega ministries and others who
have been using Modern translations that are based on older manuscripts
for decades and they're Being considered to be less than
scholarly less than knowledgeable and even a danger to the church
because in the minds of Those in the confessional
bibliology movement a Tainted
scripture is being presented in the sermons and
writings of Those who are not in their movement.
So what are the main reasons why this should be an issue of major concern and
How you believe that.
It could very well be dangerous.
I Was a camp counselor at a Christian
camp in the fundamentalist world and non King James only
churches.
It was sort of I we
use the King James.
Anyone so I I walked into the cabin on the very first day I hadn't even met my
junior that week and now now
I 20 years later.
That ain't
no Bible.
You should burn that.
That is exactly the way he talked.
I do accents and Other boy, I'm just gonna give his name.
I don't know where he lives or if he's a believer now, but his name was Daniel Kent and
What it turned out to be was of course the boy with the
southern accent
at being told that his Bible isn't a you know.
We can all chuckle at the level of discourse and confessional bibliology is much higher.
But when it actually gets Daniel
Quintana who as it turned out both boys were what we called butt kid.
They didn't even there.
But it really troubled me that this boy who was King James only at six come to find
out later.
He did not know the gospel.
He wasn't a Christian and yet he knew you've got to burn this.
Let me let me again be clear.
I'm not saying everybody in confession more than a sixth
grade, but when it gets to the lay level
What are
lay
Christians before he hears
the evaluate arguments that are made about the Greek
when you cannot read those languages?
You're stuck in a corner and then actually cannot
evaluate the arguments or if you can't look at the evidence.
You'd be going
around telling other Christians on the internet or wherever you can't really trust you
Don't really want to bring them up.
But you know an example and I won't take sides here.
You know when people were arguing about Mac's People were have very strong feelings on either side
and I just instinctively stepped back and said How am I supposed
that is the method by which I can gain knowledge here?
And it would require a lot of work for me, which I was just not too busy to do.
So setting aside that touchy topic back to the Bible I've done the work now
and I believe that I know the areas where you know,
I could be wrong, but the areas where
It's really difficult.
I found to explain to people who can't read Hebrew and Greek all the ins and outs of
The debate here.
I just want to
be really clear here in a King James only church.
Leave it if you're if your pastor gets it.
I think there are way more Soteriology is more
important than this debate.
I think your pastor's beats other
Christians who
disagree won't divide over
it same lens.
I can have a lot of fellowship.
Lee imagined going to a church Where the pastor held any of these views because I'm up in
Alaska.
I don't have any other options.
Yeah, this
isn't ideal,
but it's
more
important
for me to obey
Christ
and.
This seems to be rooted and Being far far infinitely
far more of an expert on this issue than I am.
I'm not an expert at all on this issue, but um it seems to be rooted in
a desire and perhaps the desire
is a very noble one, but a misguided one
that We need to know that we have an inerrant Bible.
We we cannot have doubt placed in the minds of our congregations and in the
minds of the lost That we are evangelizing About the
authenticity and inerrancy of the scripture and those from the
confessional Bibliology camp seemed to share with their King James only cousins
that only their views Will preserve and convey the idea
that we can trust The translation of the Bible in our hands as
being inerrant.
Is that really where this is coming from?
Yeah, and I do it
that's that's
initially
kind of
scary.
And
many
other major figures that we respect today.
Regarded it, but
nonetheless
they
pursue a
view
that I
they also share
confidence collections thought.
Well, then he would make certain
our CB friends
to the
ologist
Jeff
the most.
Well, well credential interviewed by my friend Dwayne Green on YouTube
came out yesterday and I listened very carefully and he was asked.
Okay, but then what about the differences among
several years and in his answer?
He said something that I
think that's why
we should
trust
in
that
one that
one alone.
If you listen to that interview, I my mouth is just hanging open.
He just didn't do it.
He wouldn't he wouldn't say this
is to the question.
Although gifted man, I'm told by a reliable source who teaches preaching at Bob
Jones my alma mater and in this I rejoice and I'm
Confident
I charge my brother in Christ with
and I'm bringing
division.
Simplest question.
Okay, you say we have a
purpose then
I mean, it's very divisive and what's true
can't and won't produce answers to the question.
Okay, which text and why.
And I and my friends are frankly.
I said this last time very frustrated.
I've lost the
thread a little
bit, but you only
cousins and and that the wise men
came in and saw baby
there's no difference to the overall meaning whichever one you choose, but.
People like my brother. Dr. Riddle are saying we have to know with a hundred percent.
I think that is simply not true.
That doesn't reflect the world that God gave us.
Well, we're going to our first break right now.
If anybody has a question, please send it to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
As always give us your first name at least Your city and state of residence and your country of residence
if you live outside the USA.
Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter such as you were a member
of a church teaching confessional bibliology and you don't want to
Identify your disagreement with your own pastor or your own congregation or you
perhaps or even a pastor in a Congregation and your fellow elders are in disagreement with you over
this.
Well, obviously these are issues that may may compel you to remain anonymous.
But other than those kinds of things, please if it's a general question Give us your first name at
least your city and state in your country of residence.
Don't go away.
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Welcome back if you just tuned us in.
Our guest today is Dr. Mark Ward he is on the faculty at Reformed
Baptist Seminary and We are discussing part two of a topic
we began last Wednesday on June 1st King James only ism and
confessional bibliology comparison and contrast and the dangers of both and today we are
Focusing more upon confessional bibliology since the majority of our time last week was spent
discussing King James only ism and Let's see here.
We have an anonymous listener and The
anonymous listener says.
It seems to me as an observer that the confessional
bibliology advocates are putting far too much emphasis and
giving far too much credit as To their understanding of God's providence
and why he has historically worked Throughout the ages they almost appear to
have an infallible understanding of the providence that has occurred throughout
history in regard to the mighty and powerful use that
God has Made of the textus receptus and how
for centuries Many multiple and countless thousands have been led to Christ
through it.
They seem to be drawing conclusions by that fact that cannot be
supported in the scripture or Could be defended as being an
infallible assessment.
Am I anywhere near the right ballpark?
Yeah, I this anonymous commenter I think is exactly right and that's one of the reasons
this is such a dispute, right?
It's one thing to things become.
I mean indeed if you
want to talk about preservation of
the extant manuscripts.
That means all of these still existing Manuscripts of the Greek New Testament as and the Hebrew Bible all of them
were providentially preserved by God.
What does that mean?
The and
then they also fought
their minds indicate that yes, we will have a perfect text.
But nobody can draw a line even if Matthew 518.
I think I talked about this last week.
Even if Matthew 518 is a promise think that is an interpretation
that can plausibly be it doesn't tell
up many Different or the Hebrew Bible is the perfect one
now.
Let me be really quick to read Hebrew and Greek.
The differences are incredibly minor.
We have an incredibly but
You you'd like to have something I read of the
history.
This is the one God has used the most if that's the print.
What about the Dutch Bible that God used extensively
is a slightly different text?
Well, what about God's apparent use in the earlier history of the
church?
It just mires you in an incredibly difficult.
We just haven't been given sufficient
He hasn't told us and that's where a lot of the frustration comes in this debate.
I think you're coming.
Thank you anonymous.
And if you provide your full name off the air, of course Which will not be
divulged on the air and your full mailing address.
We have a surprise for you.
Lexham Press has provided a limited number of free copies of authorized The use
and misuse of the King James Bible and that will be shipped out to you.
Compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV BBS calm and
also compliments of Lexham Press.
We thank you for that generosity.
Lexham and We look forward to interviewing more of your authors.
Let's see here.
We have a Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania Who asks I've
heard the argument that you cannot claim biblical inerrancy without
physically possessing the original autographs of the Bible, how do you.
Challenge and refute that notion that seems to be at the core of a lot of this.
Even the Bible itself ever
it was that
Moses wrote on,
you know 1 ,500 years prior.
That seems rather doubtful, you know, we don't know that he didn't but I
kept a couple thoughts that that's first I want to base my life on the Bible and if that's a little bit circular well read John frames right
probably not the discussion for now.
A second is think think how your.
You know your friend would feel if for some reason he sent a message
laid by somebody else and you said
So I'm not gonna listen.
God uses means God uses in perfect.
I am a sinner.
I sin every day I
have and yet I preach the gospel.
Is that does that when I give the gospel?
I don't give it.
Perfect will be more accurate and
you know little
places answer that I'd give
Addition to the Greek Testament
to feel like well
look at the difference now for century so much locked up.
They said I've owned a JB parallel Bible org and you can actually go see chapter after chapter.
What are the critical texts that's
used by most modern Bible translations all around the world, you know not distinguished with French and German and Spanish and Russian
Urdu and Japanese the main
addition of the technical Bibliology world and
When you actually 40 of them
are I'm just
gonna pull
up a
random page the differences on this page.
Don't.
Start until and the
difference here is we might know
Greek New
Testament manuscript that the
pronoun It's either you or
probably minor or the next one.
So I would encourage people who are alarmed at all To go and look at KJV parallel
problem at all that we don't have the autograph.
Are you gonna say?
Jesus maybe died for my
sin with the father.
But they're Colossians 418
ends with the word. Amen.
We're up to kind of just Since we're usually talking about in the Greek New Testament
edition and somebody needs to work through that, but I'm not
gonna over.
Yeah, but one more minute.
Okay, and we could always Pick up where we left off after the midway break as well.
Evangelical study center.
He's a faithful.
God's a man himself.
He's a New Testament textual critics.
He doesn't even devil, you know,
he compares it to a picture with pixels, you know a digital picture.
You know, you can have a picture of somebody and you can take out individual
pixels.
Situation that we have the
same Jesus.
Alright, we are going now to our midway break and please be patient with us because as always the midway break
Is longer than the other breaks, by the way before I go to the break.
I'd like to Tell dr. Ward if he didn't realize this already.
I Forwarded to you an email from a listener.
That is quite long You might want to look it over during the station break.
So you can see what this listener has written in advance since it is so lengthy
I would like to use that as a time to Give a
caveat or a warning to our listeners.
Please do not preach to us.
Please do not give us long tomes I will not read them.
I'm gonna let this one slide since I didn't give a warning before and since it is becoming
from an Opponent of dr. Ward.
I wanted to give the appearance of fairness as much as I can and so I will
This one time allow this entire series of comments and questions
to be read.
But please give for all of you all the others in the audience who may have something to say
whether a pro or con.
Please keep your questions brief don't use this as a an opportunity to preach and teach.
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That is Chris Arns in a gmail .com.
Chris Arns in a gmail .com give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence.
Just out of curiosity Mark, I don't know if you heard me before the break.
But did you find that email that I forwarded to you earlier?
From a listener that was very lengthy.
I did.
Okay.
Well, I'll get to that in a minute.
Um I'll get to that in a minute.
But first of all, I just want to have you clarify something that Susan Margaret asked
before the midway break.
Everyone involved in this debate.
Both.
You and I both.
Dr. James are white.
The Valfin Omega Ministries.
And those who are promoting either King James only ism or
Confessional bibliology.
All of us agree that we don't have the autographs.
We don't have the original manuscripts from those
disciples who were blessed by God in the very unique
way in breathing out His inerrant word through them
on to paper.
We don't have those.
The difference in this debate though. Isn't it.
How we respond to that.
And.
And to be careful not to manufacture an artificial Replacement for the
original manuscripts and the autographs.
Yes, that's appeal to
the most responsible careful accredited, you know.
We effectively do have the autographs.
We don't have the physical pieces of paper, you know.
Matthew and Luke and Paul we
have correct.
We have a perfect representation of the autographs in.
But they do acknowledge.
Yes, we were originally sent
now.
How do they arrive at that conclusion knowing?
Jerome's involvement in this Jerome and the textus
receptus.
You would think that there would be some red lights going off that that cannot be
a source or those cannot be any kind of a source related to Preserving a perfect and
inerrant text.
Can you like respond in that?
General area of what I'm asking this translator
of the Latin Vulgate.
He's not typically considered any In
Hebrew text he is
however readings in the King James Version
That appear to our best light and long story but put
together the Greek New Testament Edition that reflects the text in
1881.
This is really unavoidably complex.
It does appear to scrivener use a couple little
renderings from the Vulgate that don't appear in Greek Manuscripts
and
actually
if you dig into these manuscript tradition
now Still existing that contain those words.
But the Vulgate the Latin Vulgate preserves and faithfully and God made sure that they got in
the key level of special pleading you know,
oh many of these questions
and incredible amounts of study and knowledge of detail I really
doubt require Every individual Christian to have to make a decision
as to what is the when he hasn't either given them a command
given them the opportunity
people probably that we don't know personally to copy the text after
we don't know them personally and then to Study hard
Hebrew
and Greek and
translate any more than I'm telling them to distrust the King James translators who I think did an excellent job.
I'm saying this is the situation God give us gave all the ins
and outs We do this all the time in other areas of our lives.
We trust the people who put together the recipe for highway asphalt.
We drive off on it.
You know, maybe some other County is using a better recipe.
We don't know we're going to drive on the road telling people you can calm down and not have to
pay for you and that not
actually
Imposters you and shepherds you faithfully and he prefers the Greek New Testament underlying the King
James Version Iraq actually really am okay with that on the level of
preference and if he's insisting though on
the exclusive use of the King James.
That's where I've got to
take my open Bible in my English a Bible.
I can understand.
Can you recommend any Bible translation for me that made on whatever Hebrew Greek text you prefer?
You know, I don't understand all that stuff.
But can you make a recommendation to me of a Bible translation from those text that's made into my English
that you know That edifies me because I can understand it.
That's what I encourage people to do.
Now it seems that the incorrect me if I'm wrong the confessional Bibliologists and the King
James only folks Both believe that the
textus receptus which is a far younger
Text is a far younger text than the older manuscripts that the modern
translations are based on.
It's kind of a Kind of a confusing way of wording things.
It just happens to be the fact that the right more modern translations use the older
Manuscripts evidence and It's it's it's always interesting
to hear.
Especially from fundamentalists who believe usually in every other
area of learning in life That older is better in this case, that's not the case with them
and I have heard that some of the apprehension or outright
rejection of the older manuscripts is that they were intended to be burned.
These were flawed copies that were either
accidentally or purposely Mistranslated errors in
writing and so forth and they were they were intended for destruction to protect the church and
somebody Rescued them from the fireplace.
And I've heard that this is a fictitious account of what actually happened.
If you could pick up.
From there where you what you know about that.
Actually I'm not that much further along than you in this one here I've also read that it's fictitious.
But Talk again about whom should I trust?
When it comes to this debate and fear that you can track down for yourself and one of these days
I have it at the Constantine politician door who was the one who discovered what you're
talking about.
I need a kiss and the st. Catherine's Monastery and dr. Dr. White says that they were lovingly
preserved in a Velvet or something that there was some
obvious evidence that these were not.
Put in a a pile with kindling that they were being lovely lovingly preserved.
But
anyway continue,
and I'm not telling anybody to
not feel like this one.
You really or whether you the
mainstream?
Evangelical
and find people on both sides saying that and that.
Level and people who are producing the major modern evangelical English Bible
translation.
What are they like?
Well, it's still a modern translation burn
Poitras of the ESB, you know.
They don't always see eye to eye on but these major evangelical
scholars.
I know burn eat
their works.
Do they seem to know what they're talking about?
Do they seem to have been and not just for the Academy
the major modern evangelical English Bible translation?
You'll find over and over again that they are feeding you at emails that
get sent to the
frame waitress org site.
Is a guy who
really loves Christ's body
does that mean all their
textual views are
right?
No, but you encounter this debate.
You're going to quickly see that there are smart people on both sides.
It can be hard to wade through.
I'm saying it's okay to not feel like you have to answer all the questions.
But instead look at what are these people producing and on the King James only side?
What are they producing?
Look at the kind of tone look at the kind of red That is used
by everybody there are exceptions.
But
sometimes
I won't I
myself you've proven their
trustworthiness to me over and over when I've read their commentaries over the
years.
You know, there's does lose careful work on Romans.
It's just excellent.
Doesn't mean he's always right but in general on something, you know arcane I sound
like I'm skirting the answer because I actually I'm trying to do is To get people to
recognize the way they have to end up answering most questions.
They still are going to have to end up trusting authority.
We have a question from Andrew in Brooklyn, New York.
It is predominantly focused on King James only ism, but I
think That there is a part of the question that would equally apply to
confessional bibliologists.
First of all, he starts off by saying that he wants us to know he believes the textus receptus is
the most reliable Greek text.
He says the two most infuriating aspects about the King James only movement is their
four decades of smears against the new King James Version an Excellent translation that
exceeds the King James in many areas Thank Titus chapter 2 verse 13 and
2nd Peter 1 1.
And their unwillingness.
This is the part that I think that applies To a degree do confessional bibliology
and their unwillingness to make a modern translation based off the same Hebrew or American Greek texts as
the King James Version because There are not to be found scholars
With the level of godliness and classical education as were available in the days
when the King James was prepared.
So do you have a response to that?
Yeah, that that response really of the
Greek New Testament
but what's more important is are we providing God's
in English that he can read that he can access and
the King James is not entirely unintelligible, you know, the the VBS and bus kids
and You know neighborhood kids that I ministered to for years in a not -so -nice part
of they could get some truth out of.
For God's to love the world that he gave his only begotten Son to serve believe in him.
But I
didn't count over years.
What does this mean?
And Oh
Archaism the way King James English, you know, it doesn't match the English.
I am practically desperate to get my brothers in the King James only world the ones who are the most
Responsible the ones who believe the King James itself
learn to do here is to promote the
text and agree to disagree about that.
We can have that more private academic discussion.
As long as you've acknowledged that then it is
that we've
got to
use, you know.
Here's a guy who's promoted the TR who trusted above others.
It's really healthy to be able to look at your side and see it's flawed.
And this is absolutely one of those flaws I have it as a principle in my life.
I'm always always always looking for the most responsible and Influential
proponents of any given position.
I will not be guilty of nut -picking if I can avoid it.
God I have looked and looked for
okay, it will touch it and I have
met just a very few who will there are this tiny number
then what are Problems and and Albert hemmed of the Trinitarian Bible Society
and Chuck Surratt of Ambassador Baptist Colleges retired now I believe
because I
looked for the most chopped, you know, the most ability to read the Hebrew and Greek.
And yet I wrote Lengthy reviews of the incline line through
what very best critique it's the
name in a tackle of our
scene over again Albert hemmed of the Trinitarian Bible Society, which I think is doing a lot of good work
around the world from what I know I don't know a ton about it.
They're doing Bible translation work in other countries, which I support, you know in general.
That's a great idea.
The Albert can only call I have to call it what
it is Visions of the New King James translators
some kind of narrative of an agenda that they suppose have to undermine the
Christian faith and it amounts to a Conspiracy theory all these Bible scholars that
teach in evangelical
institutions and say an orthodox doctrine.
But no look what they did here and I'm thinking over and over again rather explanation
for this and if you would just go listen.
They're said in their multiple commentaries on some of the very books that they translated.
You could give a charitable representation of why they made this decision
really does start to fully answer one objection and
Without acknowledging that.
Yes that there is another side to this another mold pops.
It's about another passage Lee.
I cannot regard Texas Receptus defense as Merely about the
TR it is King James only isn't I'm gonna give another Argument for that because I do
not like to say that my opponents are telling lies.
I don't think they are.
I think they're confused.
They say we what we really care about is the Texas Receptus not necessary.
Very the King James.
So you're saying this is an unconscious.
It's an unconscious.
You're saying it's an unconscious King James only
isn't.
Yeah, this is my paper that James White.
Well, he prays on social media.
Their answer to the which TR question is actually the King James.
Whatever the King James translators did whatever textual critical choices they made when they looked at the different TR edition.
Those are the right ones and I just I just say brothers that is King James only
ism.
It's in a slightly different form.
I want to acknowledge that but it really is the same thing.
Yeah,
so won't give their trust to
the new King James that's been out for 40 years and.
Maybe me for the TR that we're using the new King James, then I would think
okay.
We've got an honest, you know opinion here some folks in the TR world for the
case 99.
Like nine nine nine percent of people who prefer the TR who won't touch the new King James or modern English version in
there.
You just see that as King James only is not really
text.
So there appears to be whether a conscious or unconscious.
There appears to be Almost one could say and in some cases clearly it's not
even almost this way over the line of almost to be being certain There is a
superstitious on the part of many a superstitious attachment to antiquated English
17th century English which Has really become an idol in
this area and you don't see as the
Andrew and Brooklyn was was saying you don't see a modern English version coming out anywhere of
a textus receptus based Bible even the new King James version is
somewhat antiquated in its language and so.
And of course there could be the excuse of We don't want to lose the
beauty of public domain where something is free.
And if you're writing a book and you want to quote right scripture verses You don't have to pay anybody to do that.
You use the King James and it's absolutely free, but.
Have you heard of anybody with the Trinity?
The Trinity is it the Trinitarian Bible Society?
That you just mentioned.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They because I think I heard you correctly last time that they are translating in foreign
languages Bibles based on the textus receptus.
So why not a modern English Bible, right?
Actually your commenter there because
they had an
article in their own I think it's called the quarterly record in which they
if you're willing to make Translations of TR into other languages today.
Why not into English?
And if you're willing to update Bulgarian or whatever, why not update
the King James and Again, I'm so guard these.
You know their responses here and honest.
But again, I felt like I'm playing whack -a -mole like nothing can satisfy them not
enough godly and erudite people in the world today who you know could actually do this work and
Who I think
there certainly are godly and erudite people who can handle translating the Bible into contemporary English.
They do it.
You know in the modern English version.
But in a way, I just want to say that
first Corinthians 14 says edification requires intelligibility.
You should not be insist that can't
contains dozens If not hundreds of dead words.
Words We no longer use but for which we have modern equivalents.
My classic is deesome versus broom hardly anybody knows knows what a beast in this We should use the word broom because Paul said
so and not only those it contains false friends words.
We don't know we don't know and I'm up to 57 of these on my youtube channel and I
could go on.
What if
you don't even know to look up the word because you think you're understanding it?
I refer people again to my 50 false friends
King James only world.
How are people supposed to look up words?
That they don't realize they're misunderstanding.
We can debate about how many dead words and false friends have to stack up in a traditional Bible translation
before it's time to move on.
I'm willing to have that debate, but nobody will have that debate with me.
They want to switch this and I keep saying it's coming
out with with a friend who's on my side here.
I keep saying in my book authorized you can use the TR
fine.
Make a contemporary translation of it that uses words people can understand and I've been saying that for
years for now the four years that my book has been out and Over and over
again that question in that case has simply been
Dismissed and So, I don't know what
else to do.
We're at an impasse I'm trying to have personal discussions with folks and sometimes I get somewhere but in public.
We're at an impasse and now now the Christian public has to look at the best case
pray about it read their Bibles and make a decision.
All right, since you have In front of you the lengthy email that I
forwarded to you from Michael in Pittsburgh, California.
Who also sent in a question or a bunch of comments last time?
I'll read this.
So our listeners hear the entirety of what he has to say and then I'll have you respond when we come back from the final.
Break.
The original writings of the Apostles moved from Jerusalem to Syria Just prior to the
destruction of 80 70.
The church flooded Mesopotamia with the originals including the Aramaic copy called a shitta.
Then the persecution of Rome arose but after it was stopped in 313 AD the original writings were
brought to Constantinople to be copied.
These copies were widely published in the 1400s when the fall of the Byzantine Empire occurred.
The original writings were brought to Turin Italy where they were published by
Erasmus.
The pashita from the 2nd century is a Witness to the content of the textus
receptus today God has used the text of the textus receptus to save millions of souls.
The Nestle Allen UBS approach denies all of this has not been afraid to attack and
discredit the textus receptus and as a result the New American Standard Bible has changed
with almost every discovery of An ancient text not believing God provided a
single manuscript.
The New American Standard is continually changing Moreover as a result of its collection of
verses being an eclectic text.
It is now a Bible that was nowhere manifested in the history of the church.
Isn't this denial of God's work in the past?
Displeasing to God.
Do you know who is on this UBS board making these decisions as to what to include or
exclude?
How can anyone claim to be a Christian accepting these?
Denials of the New American Standard Bible and not believing the power providence and faithfulness of God.
How can such scholarship be?
Again, how can such scholarship claim to be superior not having the spirit of truth?
Shouldn't teachers in the church affirm the faithfulness of God and the fear of God in not
honoring his word.
Atheists do not honor the word and yet you and James White are supporting their approach.
And aren't these modern translations based on the UBS sold because publishers have made them look like TR
translations.
In fact, this whole matter may not have arisen were it not for the attacks on the Texas Receptus and
King James Version by James White.
It's interesting how the listener Is saying that those on his opposite on the
opposite side to him are doing well the attacking but we'll have you respond to that as best you
can since you have that very long email in front of you and Don't go away folks.
We're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors.
James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of iron sharpens iron radio
and I Are heading to Washington DC for the g3 ministries regional conference on the theme
Just thinking about the Bible.
The conference will be held Thursday, September 15th through Saturday, September 17th.
I'll be speaking along with Stephen Lawson Josh vice founder of g3 ministries and Darrell Bernard
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Calm.
Welcome back if you could.
Now dr. Ward as best as you can respond.
To what our our listener Michael in Pittsburgh, California has asserted.
Yeah, this is such a mixture of valid question.
This is what conspiracy with a bunch of
detail to get you
to the views and the
motives email.
But let me answer in
214 edification about dead words and false
friends when you translate with
not and we're talking to
me rather than a bunch of Arcane detail again oxy
evangelical
stuff.
We're not ignorant of
Roy
and discredit the true text, you know, supposedly
that's
what he's
saying, but
let alone the gospel
and When you actually read the ESV versus the King James to understand both
there's the overall picture when you pick up a systematic theology.
It puts script in parentheses and it doesn't tell you we look
them up it because it doesn't this
long -term being non -evangelical.
And yes, there are non -evangelical textual critics.
But first evangelicals evaluate their work before they go into the evangelical English Bible
Translations and secondarily a lot of belief.
I know them personally.
There are godly people who believe in inerrancy.
I was just with them two weeks ago in Dallas for a concert read the evangelical textual
and finally
Versus being eclectic text it is now a quote Bible that was nowhere manifested in the history of the church.
That is exactly the case with Scribner's 1881 reconstructions of the textual critical decisions of the King
James translators and King James only
ism.
Never existed in the history of the world until 1881.
That I take to church a Bible
in air quote.
That is the ended by
this it is not true.
No matter how the erudition and accuracy, you
know.
No matter how you know eight when they defended the Latin
Vulgate Bible that Wickliffe was producing.
At the end of the day you have to ask can't God speak in the language of the plow boy plow boy.
King James only views put so much effort into having a
value too.
I think my value is and I think if
you're gonna have to weigh the two, of course you want
both world.
Cannot fully understand anymore because it's not in our English.
One of the most baffling things about this whole debate is although
most of my Anglican friends Who are reformed?
Who adhere to the 39 articles and so on they are most of them Calvinistic?
Although they only use the King James version and a lot of it I think has to do with a
Sentimentalism a pride and I don't mean that necessarily in a sinful way.
But a pride of something that has been produced by their denomination.
It's baffling that those who are outside of Anglicanism would tenaciously can't
cling to this Version of the scriptures and especially
when it is coming from the typical independent fundamentalist
Baptists who despise Anglicanism not only today, but in
every century it existed and many of those folks if not most Don't even believe that they
are a part of the Protestant Reformation meaning that the independent fundamentalist Baptists are not.
Why what is this love affair? by non -anglicans with this
Anglican Bible.
Well, it has intrinsically beautiful qualities.
That is true.
I love the King James too.
I love it more.
But what is this?
It's tradition and the Pharisees Jesus criticized He excoriated them for
valuing their tradition over what God actually said.
He said you make void the Word of God by your tradition.
This is a perennial temptation to treat one form one translation of the text
like the Septuagint like the Vulgate now like the King James Version.
Like the Get Is Bible in Ethiopia is actually treated the same way by people most of your listeners Probably have never heard
of.
I didn't until a couple months ago when I talked to a Get Is cleric.
I'm not kidding.
That's a perennial temptation for people to take a form of the text translation that is traditional that they've come to trust and rightly
so and Then to make that the new pope that overrules everything else.
Actually that the word says about Bible translation.
It doesn't say a whole lot but what it does say is now being made void by
this against the Bible and I know my Opponents in this debate
are not self -consciously thinking I'm gonna value tradition over the Bible.
That is what is happening.
I am trying to make this clear to them and I am calling them back to
yes.
Tradition can be wonderful and beautiful until it is not recognized as being tradition.
And.
It's amazing.
Also that Baptists of anybody would cling to the King James Version as the only Bible
at least in the English language and some of obviously any Bible no matter where you live in the planet.
When there were certain words that the Anglican translators used that diminished
Baptist distinctives, I mean, I don't know too many fundamentalist Baptists who have a friend named Bishop Bob.
You know, there are a lot of other things in the King James even even the words for
Baptism, you know the you never see.
Immerse.
Yeah, you could go on and on.
Do we have time for one more story Chris?
Yes, we do.
We only have time
for one more though young perfect one of
the leading King James only
institution to read the book.
You know in manuscripts and make any critiques that he wished, you know, I told him I want to represent you.
Certainly, I want you to tell me if I'm not doing so and he was very courteous.
He really was but he also utterly refused to help me in any way because he saw that I was pushing back against this cherished
Doctrinal distinctive of his but he also wanted to persuade me so he stuck around on the thought I
believe in the devil is
inspired and I believe you.
So is there anything in the King James that you would change.
Could I mean I made the same argument that you just made?
And he said
Wow said is Ruckmanism
if you can't change one syllable that Manifestly a bad translation that actually
comes from him of the day holding on to it.
Thank you.
You can't even even though you yourself don't have Bishop then you're treating the
King James as perfect.
You're treating the translation as the Word of God.
That is Ruckmanism.
I run into that and over and over again because the view here is
not just King James only Textual absolutism taking one form of the text
and saying this is the final and perfect form.
Everything else is corrupt.
Well, we are out of time and I want to make sure that the website reform about this for reform.
But the seminary is given RBS seminary.
I'm sorry.
Our B seminary org.
Our B seminary org.
Please provide any other websites that you care to provide.
Dr. Ward, I would just love to send people again.
To my youtube channel just search for Mark Ward plowboy Mark Ward King James, whatever and
especially watch my fault.
Friend, I think it's the most helpful way forward in this debate
that I want to shift.
That's where I send people and the KJV parallel.
Well, thank you so much for being such a superb guest.
I look forward to you return to the show.
I thank all of you who have Listened especially those who took the time to write.
Remember all of those who submitted questions today are getting a free off the rock book.
By our guest authorized the use and misuse of the King James Bible if you care to provide
Your mailing address.
And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior
than you are a sinner.