June 8, 2022 Show with Dr. Mark Ward on “King James Only-ism & Confessional Bibliology: Comparison & Contrast (& the Dangers of Both)” (Part 2)

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Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity

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This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 8th day

of June 2022.

For those of you who missed last Wednesday's interview on June

1st with dr. Mark Ward who is our guest again today?

He earned his BA at Bob Jones University and his PhD at Bob Jones seminary.

I urge you to listen to that program after you listen to this live broadcast today.

It will help to make sense of a lot of what we are going to be discussing today.

I had such a fascinating discussion last week with dr. Ward on King James

only ism and confessional bibliology Comparison and contrast and the dangers of both

that I knew I had to have him back for a part two, especially since

the first interview was dominated by King James only ism and we really want to cut to the

core and Focus on confessional bibliology today but dr. Ward

is the author of Multiple books including authorized the

use and misuse of the King James Bible and Also a faculty member at Reformed Baptist Seminary

and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back for part two of our discussion.

Dr. Mark Ward is my honor and privilege.

I'm going to take the honor and privilege from you and keep it for myself.

Well, that is a joy to me to hear and Tell our listeners

again for especially for the sake of those who have not Heard part one yet our discussion

tell our listeners about Reformed Baptist Seminary.

Yeah, it

is not

actually through

teaching but

through grading

many many men in

men who are working a full -time job.

But you know training for ministry and love for the Bible.

They're willing,

you know different school

already in.

If anybody wants more details on Reformed Baptist Seminary go to RB seminary org.

RB seminary org.

Well, if you could at least summarize or do a recap in a

summary fashion of what we discussed last week which would

primarily be on the similarities and differences between King James only

ism and confessional bibliology and then we will Spend most of our time.

And hopefully most of our questions will be on confessional bibliology

Comparison and contrast and the dangers of both.

So if you will just to give us a recap give them a summary of the similarities and differences

of King James only ism and confessional bibliology and How they even

rose to be especially the latter.

Yeah, and I'll move

on to this for

one thing and they're using that

now whether they're

interpreting this

correctly

or not.

They

enter always

has a

confessional Bibliology.

I said last

time was ordained according but

I'm not in

a confessional denomination.

I respect confessional ism and I would be willing to be confessional.

It's just not where I am right now.

I care about what the Bible says and the best confessional book.

All the leaders in confessional Bibliology are making a biblical argument, you know much more

often than that's where they get their name.

That is a difference with King James only ism because King James only ism is largely independent on the middle Baptist.

I'll be anti Calvinist, but probably anti confessional most

typically not everybody.

There are exceptions.

That's a major difference.

Another major difference is that I feel that when

national bibliologists versus King James only it confessional bibliologist

Bibliology much more likely to have training.

In fact, wouldn't you say that many not?

I'm sorry to interrupt you but wouldn't you say that?

Meant in many cases perhaps the majority of cases the most ardent of King James only

is.

Don't even think it's a Way to spend your valuable time to learn the

original Hebrew and Greek.

They have right no use for it.

I'm saying in most cases the most ardent of King James only is.

Technically the that within King James only ism.

That's Ruckman ism.

We don't really need the Hebrew and Greek.

That is the way they just there are

certainly exceptions, but in general they don't.

I've called around the different You know independent from the middle Baptist King James only colleges

and them require any Hebrew

Generalizable to me.

Those are among the most significant

actually get down to the way lay people especially in pastors argue over this topic of

the Bible's text and translation.

They're appealing to the same proof text like Psalm 12

6 and 7 the words of the Lord are pure words.

You know purified in a furnace of earth thou shalt keep them.

Oh Lord thou shalt preserve them from this generation forever.

Matthew 5 18, you know, not a jot or a tittle or

O Lord.

Thy word is settled in heaven.

You know every word man shall not live by bread alone.

But every word that comes out and I have speaking James only ism and in

confession super eager to acknowledge.

What I'm about to say another massive similarity is

from bibliology actually after authorized came

out.

I think I had heard of it, but it just wasn't on my radar.

I started hearing from these guys and they're telling me.

Oh, we're very very different.

So don't lump us in with them.

Well, you know, I need to make sure that I'm really scrupulously honest in my description of these brothers.

So let me find out you know what they believe so I entered their Facebook group and was talking with them for a while.

Peter Gurry of Phoenix Seminary in the Texan Canon Institute was in there with me for a while and Very shortly.

I came to see and to feel frankly that The tone and spirit of

IFB King James only ism that you see online is exactly the same as confessional bibliology and

I've actually aimed at me from

from the lay and pastor.

So let me let me name some exceptions here.

Robert true love who's a leader in confessional bibliology.

He never treated me that way.

He was gracious to me.

We disagreed but we can have a man named Christian McShackery.

He's a Jeff Riddles.

Certainly.

Who's probably the top leader and Peter Van Cleek jr.

I'm naming off some of the major names They have not offered.

I'll just get one

more that I'm talking

to a lawyer.

I'll let you ask your next another similar

even though confessional Bibliology does 10 tons of

exceptions to that and lots of people with whom

I tried to have a conversation about trans and They changed the subject to

text in my book authorized.

I have to argue that I shouldn't have to talk about sexual criticism because I

actually don't mind.

If someone uses the Texas, but

if they use the New King James or modern English version that use the same base text as the King James

version then I'm satisfied with that because what what's not clear in Scripture is exactly How we adjudicate the

differences among manuscripts of the Greek New Testament.

What is clear?

Is that?

Edification requires intelligibility.

First Corinthians 14 teaches that whatever text you're you know You can

actually understand contemporary English our English and when I try to have that conversation in King James only

ism They won't do it.

They simply refuse them often without realizing it in

confessional bibliology, you know and with it They change the subject.

I think they are realizing it better, but they will not stay on topic and talk about transparency

than the similarities.

Well, I'm going to announce our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a question

for dr Mark Ward.

Submitted to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of Residence.

If you live outside the USA, we are hoping to get more questions on confessional

bibliology from our fellow Reformed Brethren.

But we will accept questions on the King James only issue as well.

And well, please for the average Christian because although I have

theologians and scholars and seminary presidents and seminary faculties

Among those listening to my broadcast every day Most of

our listeners are Just your average ordinary Christians who are making important

decisions in life.

They may be faced with Either remaining in a church or leaving a

church that has endorsed Confessional bibliology or they may be just looking for a church

After becoming reformed.

And they're faced with options whether it's a church that uses a modern

translation from a pulpit and the pew Bibles or NASB or

some other modern translation.

Or a congregation that is strictly a confessional bibliology Advocating

church there's going to be obviously serious decisions to make that may affect

how they learn and grow in the faith and So I'd like you

to lay out The the primary

reasons why this Issue of confessional bibliology

has become a concern of yours and I know that Your concern is echoed by

quite a number of other folks like dr James R. White of Alpha and Omega ministries and others who

have been using Modern translations that are based on older manuscripts

for decades and they're Being considered to be less than

scholarly less than knowledgeable and even a danger to the church

because in the minds of Those in the confessional

bibliology movement a Tainted

scripture is being presented in the sermons and

writings of Those who are not in their movement.

So what are the main reasons why this should be an issue of major concern and

How you believe that.

It could very well be dangerous.

I Was a camp counselor at a Christian

camp in the fundamentalist world and non King James only

churches.

It was sort of I we

use the King James.

Anyone so I I walked into the cabin on the very first day I hadn't even met my

junior that week and now now

I 20 years later.

That ain't

no Bible.

You should burn that.

That is exactly the way he talked.

I do accents and Other boy, I'm just gonna give his name.

I don't know where he lives or if he's a believer now, but his name was Daniel Kent and

What it turned out to be was of course the boy with the

southern accent

at being told that his Bible isn't a you know.

We can all chuckle at the level of discourse and confessional bibliology is much higher.

But when it actually gets Daniel

Quintana who as it turned out both boys were what we called butt kid.

They didn't even there.

But it really troubled me that this boy who was King James only at six come to find

out later.

He did not know the gospel.

He wasn't a Christian and yet he knew you've got to burn this.

Let me let me again be clear.

I'm not saying everybody in confession more than a sixth

grade, but when it gets to the lay level

What are

lay

Christians before he hears

the evaluate arguments that are made about the Greek

when you cannot read those languages?

You're stuck in a corner and then actually cannot

evaluate the arguments or if you can't look at the evidence.

You'd be going

around telling other Christians on the internet or wherever you can't really trust you

Don't really want to bring them up.

But you know an example and I won't take sides here.

You know when people were arguing about Mac's People were have very strong feelings on either side

and I just instinctively stepped back and said How am I supposed

that is the method by which I can gain knowledge here?

And it would require a lot of work for me, which I was just not too busy to do.

So setting aside that touchy topic back to the Bible I've done the work now

and I believe that I know the areas where you know,

I could be wrong, but the areas where

It's really difficult.

I found to explain to people who can't read Hebrew and Greek all the ins and outs of

The debate here.

I just want to

be really clear here in a King James only church.

Leave it if you're if your pastor gets it.

I think there are way more Soteriology is more

important than this debate.

I think your pastor's beats other

Christians who

disagree won't divide over

it same lens.

I can have a lot of fellowship.

Lee imagined going to a church Where the pastor held any of these views because I'm up in

Alaska.

I don't have any other options.

Yeah, this

isn't ideal,

but it's

more

important

for me to obey

Christ

and.

This seems to be rooted and Being far far infinitely

far more of an expert on this issue than I am.

I'm not an expert at all on this issue, but um it seems to be rooted in

a desire and perhaps the desire

is a very noble one, but a misguided one

that We need to know that we have an inerrant Bible.

We we cannot have doubt placed in the minds of our congregations and in the

minds of the lost That we are evangelizing About the

authenticity and inerrancy of the scripture and those from the

confessional Bibliology camp seemed to share with their King James only cousins

that only their views Will preserve and convey the idea

that we can trust The translation of the Bible in our hands as

being inerrant.

Is that really where this is coming from?

Yeah, and I do it

that's that's

initially

kind of

scary.

And

many

other major figures that we respect today.

Regarded it, but

nonetheless

they

pursue a

view

that I

they also share

confidence collections thought.

Well, then he would make certain

our CB friends

to the

ologist

Jeff

the most.

Well, well credential interviewed by my friend Dwayne Green on YouTube

came out yesterday and I listened very carefully and he was asked.

Okay, but then what about the differences among

several years and in his answer?

He said something that I

think that's why

we should

trust

in

that

one that

one alone.

If you listen to that interview, I my mouth is just hanging open.

He just didn't do it.

He wouldn't he wouldn't say this

is to the question.

Although gifted man, I'm told by a reliable source who teaches preaching at Bob

Jones my alma mater and in this I rejoice and I'm

Confident

I charge my brother in Christ with

and I'm bringing

division.

Simplest question.

Okay, you say we have a

purpose then

I mean, it's very divisive and what's true

can't and won't produce answers to the question.

Okay, which text and why.

And I and my friends are frankly.

I said this last time very frustrated.

I've lost the

thread a little

bit, but you only

cousins and and that the wise men

came in and saw baby

there's no difference to the overall meaning whichever one you choose, but.

People like my brother. Dr. Riddle are saying we have to know with a hundred percent.

I think that is simply not true.

That doesn't reflect the world that God gave us.

Well, we're going to our first break right now.

If anybody has a question, please send it to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

As always give us your first name at least Your city and state of residence and your country of residence

if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter such as you were a member

of a church teaching confessional bibliology and you don't want to

Identify your disagreement with your own pastor or your own congregation or you

perhaps or even a pastor in a Congregation and your fellow elders are in disagreement with you over

this.

Well, obviously these are issues that may may compel you to remain anonymous.

But other than those kinds of things, please if it's a general question Give us your first name at

least your city and state in your country of residence.

Don't go away.

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Welcome back if you just tuned us in.

Our guest today is Dr. Mark Ward he is on the faculty at Reformed

Baptist Seminary and We are discussing part two of a topic

we began last Wednesday on June 1st King James only ism and

confessional bibliology comparison and contrast and the dangers of both and today we are

Focusing more upon confessional bibliology since the majority of our time last week was spent

discussing King James only ism and Let's see here.

We have an anonymous listener and The

anonymous listener says.

It seems to me as an observer that the confessional

bibliology advocates are putting far too much emphasis and

giving far too much credit as To their understanding of God's providence

and why he has historically worked Throughout the ages they almost appear to

have an infallible understanding of the providence that has occurred throughout

history in regard to the mighty and powerful use that

God has Made of the textus receptus and how

for centuries Many multiple and countless thousands have been led to Christ

through it.

They seem to be drawing conclusions by that fact that cannot be

supported in the scripture or Could be defended as being an

infallible assessment.

Am I anywhere near the right ballpark?

Yeah, I this anonymous commenter I think is exactly right and that's one of the reasons

this is such a dispute, right?

It's one thing to things become.

I mean indeed if you

want to talk about preservation of

the extant manuscripts.

That means all of these still existing Manuscripts of the Greek New Testament as and the Hebrew Bible all of them

were providentially preserved by God.

What does that mean?

The and

then they also fought

their minds indicate that yes, we will have a perfect text.

But nobody can draw a line even if Matthew 518.

I think I talked about this last week.

Even if Matthew 518 is a promise think that is an interpretation

that can plausibly be it doesn't tell

up many Different or the Hebrew Bible is the perfect one

now.

Let me be really quick to read Hebrew and Greek.

The differences are incredibly minor.

We have an incredibly but

You you'd like to have something I read of the

history.

This is the one God has used the most if that's the print.

What about the Dutch Bible that God used extensively

is a slightly different text?

Well, what about God's apparent use in the earlier history of the

church?

It just mires you in an incredibly difficult.

We just haven't been given sufficient

He hasn't told us and that's where a lot of the frustration comes in this debate.

I think you're coming.

Thank you anonymous.

And if you provide your full name off the air, of course Which will not be

divulged on the air and your full mailing address.

We have a surprise for you.

Lexham Press has provided a limited number of free copies of authorized The use

and misuse of the King James Bible and that will be shipped out to you.

Compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV BBS calm and

also compliments of Lexham Press.

We thank you for that generosity.

Lexham and We look forward to interviewing more of your authors.

Let's see here.

We have a Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania Who asks I've

heard the argument that you cannot claim biblical inerrancy without

physically possessing the original autographs of the Bible, how do you.

Challenge and refute that notion that seems to be at the core of a lot of this.

Even the Bible itself ever

it was that

Moses wrote on,

you know 1 ,500 years prior.

That seems rather doubtful, you know, we don't know that he didn't but I

kept a couple thoughts that that's first I want to base my life on the Bible and if that's a little bit circular well read John frames right

probably not the discussion for now.

A second is think think how your.

You know your friend would feel if for some reason he sent a message

laid by somebody else and you said

So I'm not gonna listen.

God uses means God uses in perfect.

I am a sinner.

I sin every day I

have and yet I preach the gospel.

Is that does that when I give the gospel?

I don't give it.

Perfect will be more accurate and

you know little

places answer that I'd give

Addition to the Greek Testament

to feel like well

look at the difference now for century so much locked up.

They said I've owned a JB parallel Bible org and you can actually go see chapter after chapter.

What are the critical texts that's

used by most modern Bible translations all around the world, you know not distinguished with French and German and Spanish and Russian

Urdu and Japanese the main

addition of the technical Bibliology world and

When you actually 40 of them

are I'm just

gonna pull

up a

random page the differences on this page.

Don't.

Start until and the

difference here is we might know

Greek New

Testament manuscript that the

pronoun It's either you or

probably minor or the next one.

So I would encourage people who are alarmed at all To go and look at KJV parallel

problem at all that we don't have the autograph.

Are you gonna say?

Jesus maybe died for my

sin with the father.

But they're Colossians 418

ends with the word. Amen.

We're up to kind of just Since we're usually talking about in the Greek New Testament

edition and somebody needs to work through that, but I'm not

gonna over.

Yeah, but one more minute.

Okay, and we could always Pick up where we left off after the midway break as well.

Evangelical study center.

He's a faithful.

God's a man himself.

He's a New Testament textual critics.

He doesn't even devil, you know,

he compares it to a picture with pixels, you know a digital picture.

You know, you can have a picture of somebody and you can take out individual

pixels.

Situation that we have the

same Jesus.

Alright, we are going now to our midway break and please be patient with us because as always the midway break

Is longer than the other breaks, by the way before I go to the break.

I'd like to Tell dr. Ward if he didn't realize this already.

I Forwarded to you an email from a listener.

That is quite long You might want to look it over during the station break.

So you can see what this listener has written in advance since it is so lengthy

I would like to use that as a time to Give a

caveat or a warning to our listeners.

Please do not preach to us.

Please do not give us long tomes I will not read them.

I'm gonna let this one slide since I didn't give a warning before and since it is becoming

from an Opponent of dr. Ward.

I wanted to give the appearance of fairness as much as I can and so I will

This one time allow this entire series of comments and questions

to be read.

But please give for all of you all the others in the audience who may have something to say

whether a pro or con.

Please keep your questions brief don't use this as a an opportunity to preach and teach.

And also since this is a longer station break, please use this time wisely Write

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That is Chris Arns in a gmail .com.

Chris Arns in a gmail .com give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence.

Just out of curiosity Mark, I don't know if you heard me before the break.

But did you find that email that I forwarded to you earlier?

From a listener that was very lengthy.

I did.

Okay.

Well, I'll get to that in a minute.

Um I'll get to that in a minute.

But first of all, I just want to have you clarify something that Susan Margaret asked

before the midway break.

Everyone involved in this debate.

Both.

You and I both.

Dr. James are white.

The Valfin Omega Ministries.

And those who are promoting either King James only ism or

Confessional bibliology.

All of us agree that we don't have the autographs.

We don't have the original manuscripts from those

disciples who were blessed by God in the very unique

way in breathing out His inerrant word through them

on to paper.

We don't have those.

The difference in this debate though. Isn't it.

How we respond to that.

And.

And to be careful not to manufacture an artificial Replacement for the

original manuscripts and the autographs.

Yes, that's appeal to

the most responsible careful accredited, you know.

We effectively do have the autographs.

We don't have the physical pieces of paper, you know.

Matthew and Luke and Paul we

have correct.

We have a perfect representation of the autographs in.

But they do acknowledge.

Yes, we were originally sent

now.

How do they arrive at that conclusion knowing?

Jerome's involvement in this Jerome and the textus

receptus.

You would think that there would be some red lights going off that that cannot be

a source or those cannot be any kind of a source related to Preserving a perfect and

inerrant text.

Can you like respond in that?

General area of what I'm asking this translator

of the Latin Vulgate.

He's not typically considered any In

Hebrew text he is

however readings in the King James Version

That appear to our best light and long story but put

together the Greek New Testament Edition that reflects the text in

1881.

This is really unavoidably complex.

It does appear to scrivener use a couple little

renderings from the Vulgate that don't appear in Greek Manuscripts

and

actually

if you dig into these manuscript tradition

now Still existing that contain those words.

But the Vulgate the Latin Vulgate preserves and faithfully and God made sure that they got in

the key level of special pleading you know,

oh many of these questions

and incredible amounts of study and knowledge of detail I really

doubt require Every individual Christian to have to make a decision

as to what is the when he hasn't either given them a command

given them the opportunity

people probably that we don't know personally to copy the text after

we don't know them personally and then to Study hard

Hebrew

and Greek and

translate any more than I'm telling them to distrust the King James translators who I think did an excellent job.

I'm saying this is the situation God give us gave all the ins

and outs We do this all the time in other areas of our lives.

We trust the people who put together the recipe for highway asphalt.

We drive off on it.

You know, maybe some other County is using a better recipe.

We don't know we're going to drive on the road telling people you can calm down and not have to

pay for you and that not

actually

Imposters you and shepherds you faithfully and he prefers the Greek New Testament underlying the King

James Version Iraq actually really am okay with that on the level of

preference and if he's insisting though on

the exclusive use of the King James.

That's where I've got to

take my open Bible in my English a Bible.

I can understand.

Can you recommend any Bible translation for me that made on whatever Hebrew Greek text you prefer?

You know, I don't understand all that stuff.

But can you make a recommendation to me of a Bible translation from those text that's made into my English

that you know That edifies me because I can understand it.

That's what I encourage people to do.

Now it seems that the incorrect me if I'm wrong the confessional Bibliologists and the King

James only folks Both believe that the

textus receptus which is a far younger

Text is a far younger text than the older manuscripts that the modern

translations are based on.

It's kind of a Kind of a confusing way of wording things.

It just happens to be the fact that the right more modern translations use the older

Manuscripts evidence and It's it's it's always interesting

to hear.

Especially from fundamentalists who believe usually in every other

area of learning in life That older is better in this case, that's not the case with them

and I have heard that some of the apprehension or outright

rejection of the older manuscripts is that they were intended to be burned.

These were flawed copies that were either

accidentally or purposely Mistranslated errors in

writing and so forth and they were they were intended for destruction to protect the church and

somebody Rescued them from the fireplace.

And I've heard that this is a fictitious account of what actually happened.

If you could pick up.

From there where you what you know about that.

Actually I'm not that much further along than you in this one here I've also read that it's fictitious.

But Talk again about whom should I trust?

When it comes to this debate and fear that you can track down for yourself and one of these days

I have it at the Constantine politician door who was the one who discovered what you're

talking about.

I need a kiss and the st. Catherine's Monastery and dr. Dr. White says that they were lovingly

preserved in a Velvet or something that there was some

obvious evidence that these were not.

Put in a a pile with kindling that they were being lovely lovingly preserved.

But

anyway continue,

and I'm not telling anybody to

not feel like this one.

You really or whether you the

mainstream?

Evangelical

and find people on both sides saying that and that.

Level and people who are producing the major modern evangelical English Bible

translation.

What are they like?

Well, it's still a modern translation burn

Poitras of the ESB, you know.

They don't always see eye to eye on but these major evangelical

scholars.

I know burn eat

their works.

Do they seem to know what they're talking about?

Do they seem to have been and not just for the Academy

the major modern evangelical English Bible translation?

You'll find over and over again that they are feeding you at emails that

get sent to the

frame waitress org site.

Is a guy who

really loves Christ's body

does that mean all their

textual views are

right?

No, but you encounter this debate.

You're going to quickly see that there are smart people on both sides.

It can be hard to wade through.

I'm saying it's okay to not feel like you have to answer all the questions.

But instead look at what are these people producing and on the King James only side?

What are they producing?

Look at the kind of tone look at the kind of red That is used

by everybody there are exceptions.

But

sometimes

I won't I

myself you've proven their

trustworthiness to me over and over when I've read their commentaries over the

years.

You know, there's does lose careful work on Romans.

It's just excellent.

Doesn't mean he's always right but in general on something, you know arcane I sound

like I'm skirting the answer because I actually I'm trying to do is To get people to

recognize the way they have to end up answering most questions.

They still are going to have to end up trusting authority.

We have a question from Andrew in Brooklyn, New York.

It is predominantly focused on King James only ism, but I

think That there is a part of the question that would equally apply to

confessional bibliologists.

First of all, he starts off by saying that he wants us to know he believes the textus receptus is

the most reliable Greek text.

He says the two most infuriating aspects about the King James only movement is their

four decades of smears against the new King James Version an Excellent translation that

exceeds the King James in many areas Thank Titus chapter 2 verse 13 and

2nd Peter 1 1.

And their unwillingness.

This is the part that I think that applies To a degree do confessional bibliology

and their unwillingness to make a modern translation based off the same Hebrew or American Greek texts as

the King James Version because There are not to be found scholars

With the level of godliness and classical education as were available in the days

when the King James was prepared.

So do you have a response to that?

Yeah, that that response really of the

Greek New Testament

but what's more important is are we providing God's

in English that he can read that he can access and

the King James is not entirely unintelligible, you know, the the VBS and bus kids

and You know neighborhood kids that I ministered to for years in a not -so -nice part

of they could get some truth out of.

For God's to love the world that he gave his only begotten Son to serve believe in him.

But I

didn't count over years.

What does this mean?

And Oh

Archaism the way King James English, you know, it doesn't match the English.

I am practically desperate to get my brothers in the King James only world the ones who are the most

Responsible the ones who believe the King James itself

learn to do here is to promote the

text and agree to disagree about that.

We can have that more private academic discussion.

As long as you've acknowledged that then it is

that we've

got to

use, you know.

Here's a guy who's promoted the TR who trusted above others.

It's really healthy to be able to look at your side and see it's flawed.

And this is absolutely one of those flaws I have it as a principle in my life.

I'm always always always looking for the most responsible and Influential

proponents of any given position.

I will not be guilty of nut -picking if I can avoid it.

God I have looked and looked for

okay, it will touch it and I have

met just a very few who will there are this tiny number

then what are Problems and and Albert hemmed of the Trinitarian Bible Society

and Chuck Surratt of Ambassador Baptist Colleges retired now I believe

because I

looked for the most chopped, you know, the most ability to read the Hebrew and Greek.

And yet I wrote Lengthy reviews of the incline line through

what very best critique it's the

name in a tackle of our

scene over again Albert hemmed of the Trinitarian Bible Society, which I think is doing a lot of good work

around the world from what I know I don't know a ton about it.

They're doing Bible translation work in other countries, which I support, you know in general.

That's a great idea.

The Albert can only call I have to call it what

it is Visions of the New King James translators

some kind of narrative of an agenda that they suppose have to undermine the

Christian faith and it amounts to a Conspiracy theory all these Bible scholars that

teach in evangelical

institutions and say an orthodox doctrine.

But no look what they did here and I'm thinking over and over again rather explanation

for this and if you would just go listen.

They're said in their multiple commentaries on some of the very books that they translated.

You could give a charitable representation of why they made this decision

really does start to fully answer one objection and

Without acknowledging that.

Yes that there is another side to this another mold pops.

It's about another passage Lee.

I cannot regard Texas Receptus defense as Merely about the

TR it is King James only isn't I'm gonna give another Argument for that because I do

not like to say that my opponents are telling lies.

I don't think they are.

I think they're confused.

They say we what we really care about is the Texas Receptus not necessary.

Very the King James.

So you're saying this is an unconscious.

It's an unconscious.

You're saying it's an unconscious King James only

isn't.

Yeah, this is my paper that James White.

Well, he prays on social media.

Their answer to the which TR question is actually the King James.

Whatever the King James translators did whatever textual critical choices they made when they looked at the different TR edition.

Those are the right ones and I just I just say brothers that is King James only

ism.

It's in a slightly different form.

I want to acknowledge that but it really is the same thing.

Yeah,

so won't give their trust to

the new King James that's been out for 40 years and.

Maybe me for the TR that we're using the new King James, then I would think

okay.

We've got an honest, you know opinion here some folks in the TR world for the

case 99.

Like nine nine nine percent of people who prefer the TR who won't touch the new King James or modern English version in

there.

You just see that as King James only is not really

text.

So there appears to be whether a conscious or unconscious.

There appears to be Almost one could say and in some cases clearly it's not

even almost this way over the line of almost to be being certain There is a

superstitious on the part of many a superstitious attachment to antiquated English

17th century English which Has really become an idol in

this area and you don't see as the

Andrew and Brooklyn was was saying you don't see a modern English version coming out anywhere of

a textus receptus based Bible even the new King James version is

somewhat antiquated in its language and so.

And of course there could be the excuse of We don't want to lose the

beauty of public domain where something is free.

And if you're writing a book and you want to quote right scripture verses You don't have to pay anybody to do that.

You use the King James and it's absolutely free, but.

Have you heard of anybody with the Trinity?

The Trinity is it the Trinitarian Bible Society?

That you just mentioned.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They because I think I heard you correctly last time that they are translating in foreign

languages Bibles based on the textus receptus.

So why not a modern English Bible, right?

Actually your commenter there because

they had an

article in their own I think it's called the quarterly record in which they

if you're willing to make Translations of TR into other languages today.

Why not into English?

And if you're willing to update Bulgarian or whatever, why not update

the King James and Again, I'm so guard these.

You know their responses here and honest.

But again, I felt like I'm playing whack -a -mole like nothing can satisfy them not

enough godly and erudite people in the world today who you know could actually do this work and

Who I think

there certainly are godly and erudite people who can handle translating the Bible into contemporary English.

They do it.

You know in the modern English version.

But in a way, I just want to say that

first Corinthians 14 says edification requires intelligibility.

You should not be insist that can't

contains dozens If not hundreds of dead words.

Words We no longer use but for which we have modern equivalents.

My classic is deesome versus broom hardly anybody knows knows what a beast in this We should use the word broom because Paul said

so and not only those it contains false friends words.

We don't know we don't know and I'm up to 57 of these on my youtube channel and I

could go on.

What if

you don't even know to look up the word because you think you're understanding it?

I refer people again to my 50 false friends

King James only world.

How are people supposed to look up words?

That they don't realize they're misunderstanding.

We can debate about how many dead words and false friends have to stack up in a traditional Bible translation

before it's time to move on.

I'm willing to have that debate, but nobody will have that debate with me.

They want to switch this and I keep saying it's coming

out with with a friend who's on my side here.

I keep saying in my book authorized you can use the TR

fine.

Make a contemporary translation of it that uses words people can understand and I've been saying that for

years for now the four years that my book has been out and Over and over

again that question in that case has simply been

Dismissed and So, I don't know what

else to do.

We're at an impasse I'm trying to have personal discussions with folks and sometimes I get somewhere but in public.

We're at an impasse and now now the Christian public has to look at the best case

pray about it read their Bibles and make a decision.

All right, since you have In front of you the lengthy email that I

forwarded to you from Michael in Pittsburgh, California.

Who also sent in a question or a bunch of comments last time?

I'll read this.

So our listeners hear the entirety of what he has to say and then I'll have you respond when we come back from the final.

Break.

The original writings of the Apostles moved from Jerusalem to Syria Just prior to the

destruction of 80 70.

The church flooded Mesopotamia with the originals including the Aramaic copy called a shitta.

Then the persecution of Rome arose but after it was stopped in 313 AD the original writings were

brought to Constantinople to be copied.

These copies were widely published in the 1400s when the fall of the Byzantine Empire occurred.

The original writings were brought to Turin Italy where they were published by

Erasmus.

The pashita from the 2nd century is a Witness to the content of the textus

receptus today God has used the text of the textus receptus to save millions of souls.

The Nestle Allen UBS approach denies all of this has not been afraid to attack and

discredit the textus receptus and as a result the New American Standard Bible has changed

with almost every discovery of An ancient text not believing God provided a

single manuscript.

The New American Standard is continually changing Moreover as a result of its collection of

verses being an eclectic text.

It is now a Bible that was nowhere manifested in the history of the church.

Isn't this denial of God's work in the past?

Displeasing to God.

Do you know who is on this UBS board making these decisions as to what to include or

exclude?

How can anyone claim to be a Christian accepting these?

Denials of the New American Standard Bible and not believing the power providence and faithfulness of God.

How can such scholarship be?

Again, how can such scholarship claim to be superior not having the spirit of truth?

Shouldn't teachers in the church affirm the faithfulness of God and the fear of God in not

honoring his word.

Atheists do not honor the word and yet you and James White are supporting their approach.

And aren't these modern translations based on the UBS sold because publishers have made them look like TR

translations.

In fact, this whole matter may not have arisen were it not for the attacks on the Texas Receptus and

King James Version by James White.

It's interesting how the listener Is saying that those on his opposite on the

opposite side to him are doing well the attacking but we'll have you respond to that as best you

can since you have that very long email in front of you and Don't go away folks.

We're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of iron sharpens iron radio

and I Are heading to Washington DC for the g3 ministries regional conference on the theme

Just thinking about the Bible.

The conference will be held Thursday, September 15th through Saturday, September 17th.

I'll be speaking along with Stephen Lawson Josh vice founder of g3 ministries and Darrell Bernard

Harrison and Virgil Walker co -hosts of the just thinking podcast.

To register visit g3 min org.

That's g3 min org and click on events.

Your registration will include a ticket to the Museum of the Bible nearby the conference venue in Washington, DC.

So join me and Chris Arnson September 15th through the 17th in Washington, DC to the g3

ministries regional conference.

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Calm.

Welcome back if you could.

Now dr. Ward as best as you can respond.

To what our our listener Michael in Pittsburgh, California has asserted.

Yeah, this is such a mixture of valid question.

This is what conspiracy with a bunch of

detail to get you

to the views and the

motives email.

But let me answer in

214 edification about dead words and false

friends when you translate with

not and we're talking to

me rather than a bunch of Arcane detail again oxy

evangelical

stuff.

We're not ignorant of

Roy

and discredit the true text, you know, supposedly

that's

what he's

saying, but

let alone the gospel

and When you actually read the ESV versus the King James to understand both

there's the overall picture when you pick up a systematic theology.

It puts script in parentheses and it doesn't tell you we look

them up it because it doesn't this

long -term being non -evangelical.

And yes, there are non -evangelical textual critics.

But first evangelicals evaluate their work before they go into the evangelical English Bible

Translations and secondarily a lot of belief.

I know them personally.

There are godly people who believe in inerrancy.

I was just with them two weeks ago in Dallas for a concert read the evangelical textual

and finally

Versus being eclectic text it is now a quote Bible that was nowhere manifested in the history of the church.

That is exactly the case with Scribner's 1881 reconstructions of the textual critical decisions of the King

James translators and King James only

ism.

Never existed in the history of the world until 1881.

That I take to church a Bible

in air quote.

That is the ended by

this it is not true.

No matter how the erudition and accuracy, you

know.

No matter how you know eight when they defended the Latin

Vulgate Bible that Wickliffe was producing.

At the end of the day you have to ask can't God speak in the language of the plow boy plow boy.

King James only views put so much effort into having a

value too.

I think my value is and I think if

you're gonna have to weigh the two, of course you want

both world.

Cannot fully understand anymore because it's not in our English.

One of the most baffling things about this whole debate is although

most of my Anglican friends Who are reformed?

Who adhere to the 39 articles and so on they are most of them Calvinistic?

Although they only use the King James version and a lot of it I think has to do with a

Sentimentalism a pride and I don't mean that necessarily in a sinful way.

But a pride of something that has been produced by their denomination.

It's baffling that those who are outside of Anglicanism would tenaciously can't

cling to this Version of the scriptures and especially

when it is coming from the typical independent fundamentalist

Baptists who despise Anglicanism not only today, but in

every century it existed and many of those folks if not most Don't even believe that they

are a part of the Protestant Reformation meaning that the independent fundamentalist Baptists are not.

Why what is this love affair? by non -anglicans with this

Anglican Bible.

Well, it has intrinsically beautiful qualities.

That is true.

I love the King James too.

I love it more.

But what is this?

It's tradition and the Pharisees Jesus criticized He excoriated them for

valuing their tradition over what God actually said.

He said you make void the Word of God by your tradition.

This is a perennial temptation to treat one form one translation of the text

like the Septuagint like the Vulgate now like the King James Version.

Like the Get Is Bible in Ethiopia is actually treated the same way by people most of your listeners Probably have never heard

of.

I didn't until a couple months ago when I talked to a Get Is cleric.

I'm not kidding.

That's a perennial temptation for people to take a form of the text translation that is traditional that they've come to trust and rightly

so and Then to make that the new pope that overrules everything else.

Actually that the word says about Bible translation.

It doesn't say a whole lot but what it does say is now being made void by

this against the Bible and I know my Opponents in this debate

are not self -consciously thinking I'm gonna value tradition over the Bible.

That is what is happening.

I am trying to make this clear to them and I am calling them back to

yes.

Tradition can be wonderful and beautiful until it is not recognized as being tradition.

And.

It's amazing.

Also that Baptists of anybody would cling to the King James Version as the only Bible

at least in the English language and some of obviously any Bible no matter where you live in the planet.

When there were certain words that the Anglican translators used that diminished

Baptist distinctives, I mean, I don't know too many fundamentalist Baptists who have a friend named Bishop Bob.

You know, there are a lot of other things in the King James even even the words for

Baptism, you know the you never see.

Immerse.

Yeah, you could go on and on.

Do we have time for one more story Chris?

Yes, we do.

We only have time

for one more though young perfect one of

the leading King James only

institution to read the book.

You know in manuscripts and make any critiques that he wished, you know, I told him I want to represent you.

Certainly, I want you to tell me if I'm not doing so and he was very courteous.

He really was but he also utterly refused to help me in any way because he saw that I was pushing back against this cherished

Doctrinal distinctive of his but he also wanted to persuade me so he stuck around on the thought I

believe in the devil is

inspired and I believe you.

So is there anything in the King James that you would change.

Could I mean I made the same argument that you just made?

And he said

Wow said is Ruckmanism

if you can't change one syllable that Manifestly a bad translation that actually

comes from him of the day holding on to it.

Thank you.

You can't even even though you yourself don't have Bishop then you're treating the

King James as perfect.

You're treating the translation as the Word of God.

That is Ruckmanism.

I run into that and over and over again because the view here is

not just King James only Textual absolutism taking one form of the text

and saying this is the final and perfect form.

Everything else is corrupt.

Well, we are out of time and I want to make sure that the website reform about this for reform.

But the seminary is given RBS seminary.

I'm sorry.

Our B seminary org.

Our B seminary org.

Please provide any other websites that you care to provide.

Dr. Ward, I would just love to send people again.

To my youtube channel just search for Mark Ward plowboy Mark Ward King James, whatever and

especially watch my fault.

Friend, I think it's the most helpful way forward in this debate

that I want to shift.

That's where I send people and the KJV parallel.

Well, thank you so much for being such a superb guest.

I look forward to you return to the show.

I thank all of you who have Listened especially those who took the time to write.

Remember all of those who submitted questions today are getting a free off the rock book.

By our guest authorized the use and misuse of the King James Bible if you care to provide

Your mailing address.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior

than you are a sinner.