An Interview with an Interviewer (Brian Auten)

Revealed Apologetics

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00:00

Gozer the Gozerian, good evening. As a duly designated representative of the city, county and state of New York, I order you to cease any and all supernatural activity and return forthwith to your place of origin or to the nearest convenient parallel dimension.

00:14

Ray stance of the Ghostbusters. I am super excited because my guest today is probably a bigger fan of Ghostbusters than I am, but maybe we're at the same level.

00:25

I don't know how to gauge that. I am going to have the pleasure of inviting

00:30

Brian Aughton of Apologetics 315 on with me in just a few moments. I find in him a kindred spirit as we like 80s movies, more specifically the

00:39

Ghostbusters and Apologetics. So I'm looking forward to just inviting him on in just a few moments.

00:45

I'm glad I got that quote out of the way before people started like trickling in. They can enjoy that cheesiness at the beginning later on and I won't have to be here to read the comments.

00:59

At any rate, before I invite Brian on the screen with me, I'd like to give folks a heads up.

01:04

Tomorrow, I will be having Dr. Calhoun Swice, who was my former apologetics professor when

01:10

I was doing seminary at Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary. So we're gonna have him on tomorrow at 4 p .m.

01:17

Eastern, okay? And you guys, I invite you guys to bring your questions and things like that.

01:24

It will be live. As you know, that's kind of how I like to do things here. So I'm looking forward to that and I don't have anything else planned after that.

01:32

I do have a couple of things on the docket, but they're not solidified just yet. But definitely keep your heads up if you're following me on social media,

01:39

Facebook or anything like that. I'll let you guys know what's going down. Well, without further ado,

01:44

I'd like to invite on the screen with me for the very first time I hear, okay, this guy's a podcaster.

01:50

He doesn't really like to show his mug on the internet, but this might be the first time he's ever done it. So this is pretty exciting.

01:57

So I'd like to introduce Brian Autin of Apologetics 315. How are you doing, Brian? Doing great,

02:03

Eli. Thanks for having me on. So let's kind of confirm this. Is this the first time you've done like a video format?

02:10

Like ever? No, I've done a couple of little video things, but I don't love live things.

02:17

I don't like that idea of, oops, I messed up and now it's there forever. All right, that's fair enough.

02:25

Well, let me give you an opportunity to maybe tell folks a little bit about yourself in terms of what you do.

02:33

I kind of just briefly introduced you, but maybe you can kind of give people a heads up as to what you do, where they can find most of your content.

02:40

Most people will already be familiar with that, but why don't you just take a few moments here while I kind of set up my stuff here.

02:47

Sure, well, probably the main thing that people would maybe know me for is the podcast,

02:54

The Apologetics 315 Podcast. Used to call it Apologetics 315 Interviews, but there's quite a few interviews on there with apologists, historians, biblical scholars, anybody having to do with anything, arguing in defense of Christianity and its truth, it's gonna be found there.

03:18

So maybe your favorite authors or speakers and people like that we've interviewed.

03:24

So about two years ago, we rebooted the interviews podcast because it was just me for quite a while.

03:32

And I had my great friend, Chad Gross from Truth Bomb Apologetics. He's my Apologetics bosom buddy.

03:40

And we've back to the eighties, right? So we kind of kicked it off again and we thought, well, let's just have fun and have conversations as well as interviews.

03:52

So it's a little bit more of a mixed format, but yeah, it's less formal and a little bit more fun than just the very stripped down, straightforward interviews that I was doing before.

04:04

Sure, sure. Yeah, well, I thought it'd be interesting to have you on because you're an interviewer and I'm an interviewer and it kind of gives people a unique perspective because as one would imagine, being able to speak with a wide range of people on a wide range of topics, there's a lot that we learn.

04:21

I don't know about you, but I actually go back and listen to some of my own episodes when I'm multitasking here between asking the questions and listening to the response and then kind of going through the comments and the questions.

04:32

I don't really get to fully enjoy and appreciate what's being said in the moment. So do you listen to your own podcast at all?

04:40

Most of the time, it's just when I do the edit, like for me, there's the prep part where I'm getting stuff from it.

04:48

Then there's the interview where I'm getting stuff from it. Then the edit part where I'm hearing new things.

04:54

And then when I finally listen to it, it's almost as if I'm hearing it for the first time when I hear it in my earbuds and I'm driving or whatever.

05:03

And that's when I maybe finally get the most out of it. I tend to not wanna go back and listen to old ones because I'm scared of hearing my voice.

05:13

But when I do, I'm always pleasantly surprised. I'm like, you know, that wasn't that bad.

05:21

Well, I hope it doesn't sound too weird, but I've been listening to you for years. And I always thought you had the most soothing and calm voice out of anyone

05:30

I ever listened to. You're just enjoyable to listen to. And just from an interviewer's perspective, you ask really good questions.

05:38

Like when you ask a question like, wow, like I didn't think to ask something, that's really helpful. And it looks like you're not simply asking questions just to get content.

05:46

You really care about your listeners. You ask questions in such a way that the answer is really gonna cater to what's gonna be helpful to your listeners.

05:55

And so for that, I really do appreciate how you do things. Thanks. Well, I consider that a high compliment.

06:02

I do, if anybody's familiar with the podcasting world, it, you know, people, publishers and promoters, they realize that, hey, we can have this author go on everybody's podcast.

06:18

And so it's easy to get a promo sheet and they'll tell you what questions to ask. Right. Although that,

06:25

I tend to not even wanna look at it because I don't want that to form my questions.

06:31

I think the best interviews are the ones where I care most about understanding that material and I've engaged with it in a long enough time to ask questions that are meaningful for my growth.

06:47

But also I can structure the interview intentionally in a way so that if someone's listening to this person for the first time,

06:56

I can take them on a walking tour through this conversation, point out all the things that they should see while finding the things

07:07

I wanna see that I'm there to look for myself. So yeah, the prep work and having a real desire to learn it and to, you know, most of the people

07:20

I feel like I know them already and it's just exciting to talk to them and sort of show my appreciation for their work as well.

07:30

So. That's awesome. And I can tell that those that you interview really appreciate your questions.

07:35

Cause I mean, I've listened to so many episodes and I can't, I lost count how many times when you ask a question, they're like, wow, now that's a really good question or thank you for asking that.

07:45

So that's excellent. But now it's my turn to ask you questions. And so my first main question as we kind of kick off our discussion is, what was the inspiration behind doing interviews specifically?

07:56

I mean, you had an interest in apologetics in general. What was the specific thing that kind of kicked this off and inspired you to say, you know what, let me reach out to this person and kind of record this and see, you know, where it goes.

08:08

This might be helpful for folks. Well, I'm thinking about that. I had,

08:14

I was working as a graphic designer and I had a lot of time to listen to my headphones while doing, you know, designs.

08:23

That was back in 2006, 2007. And I had just been downloading a lot of apologetic stuff.

08:31

And at that time, it was really hard to find resources. There was no, there was no like, oh, well you go to this website and you know, there's so much now.

08:40

And so I would find great lectures and stuff like that.

08:45

Then I would read the authors. Then I would try to scour around to find good stuff from them. And so I was really interested in trying to find helpful stuff because I searched hard to find stuff that I wanted to learn about.

09:01

And so I remember just going on Amazon and buying a nice microphone with no plan.

09:10

And I just, it came and I was like, yes, this is good. You know, and it sat for six months.

09:16

And I think, I know somebody asked me, why did you buy that? And I was like, well, one day I think I'm going to do a podcast, but I didn't have a plan, you know.

09:24

I just knew that that was something I wanted to do. I had no, literally no plan. And then

09:30

I think after I was building Apologetics 315 back in its early days and it was gaining some momentum.

09:39

Someone asked like the end of the year, I would make a summary of all the different things and resources that we'd found that year.

09:46

And someone said, well, what are you going to do next year? And I said, well, you know, it'd be great to start interviewing some of these authors and people.

09:55

And I thought, well, and I don't know if it was Mary Jo Sharp asked me that or something. And I thought, well, she's starting her ministry and she's a woman doing apologetics.

10:07

We need to promote her, you know. So let's do it. You were on the whole like, you know, women's movement before it got popular.

10:15

We need to support them. So part of it was like, hey, I'm getting a lot from these people and I want to help promote them.

10:24

And I saw that people started coming to Apologetics 315. So it was like, well, let's interview them and find out how we can sort of help just promote good resources.

10:34

So that's kind of how that started. And, you know, one of the ideas there too was trying to create the first idea with Apologetics 315 was bring together great resources in one place that was hard to find at the time.

10:52

Then the next idea with the podcast was, can I just make great standalone pieces that you could go back and listen to 10 years later and still be good?

11:03

And some of those have accomplished that goal. You know, there are certain ones I've happened to go back and listen to from that long ago.

11:11

And it's like, wow, that kid had done that yesterday and I'd be happy with it, you know? So that's,

11:17

I'm glad for that. Excellent. Well, not to put you on the spot, but what are some of the best episodes or interviews that you've done?

11:26

And why are they your favorite? I mean, maybe it's a specific person you were like really anticipating.

11:32

I mean, if it wasn't weird, us people who love Apologetics, I mean, we would have like Apologetics, if this was a thing,

11:41

Apologetics trading cards. I'll trade you your

11:46

William Lane Craig without a beard for a William Lane Craig with a beard. You know, they can have different - They'll have different powers and skills, you know?

11:54

That's right. But you know, when we are in this line of work and we're listening to a lot of people that we can kind of get starstruck.

12:02

I'm like, man, this guy is such an awesome thinker. Or, you know, I'd really love to have a conversation with this or that person.

12:09

What are your, which ones are your favorite interviews with whom and why? Was it simply because it was the person you really wanted, you were looking forward to speaking with?

12:18

Was it the specific topic that was covered? Why don't you unpack that for us? Sure, well, I had an idea you might ask something like that.

12:25

So I kind of, what I did, I just opened up my podcast, Player of Choice. Okay. Overcast.

12:31

Overcast is the one I use. But I just scrolled through the whole feed from beginning to end.

12:37

And I just thought, well, let me just think about ones that pop out and why. First was Mary Jo Sharp.

12:43

So thank you, Mary Jo, because that was like the first ever episode. And I remember in that one, after the fact, because everything was edited on one track or something, you know, it was back when

12:56

I was still trying to figure it out. Sure. So I don't know. She said a joke, you know, I asked her something and I said, well, what's it like to be a woman in apologetics?

13:04

And she said some joke that was funny, but for some reason my laugh didn't come through or whatever.

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And so when the final product came out, it sounded like she said this joke that just fell absolutely flat.

13:18

And so that was interesting. That's awesome.

13:24

So that was one. The other thing that happened, and I have to thank Lenny Esposito for this.

13:32

He hooked me up with William Lane Craig, you know. He said, hey, you should interview William Lane Craig because, you know, he had the connections at the time.

13:41

So he made that happen. And so after that, which

13:48

I was like, wow, I was so stoked. You know, when you send out an invite for someone to be on your podcast, you don't want to say, hey,

13:58

I'm starting this podcast that I haven't interviewed anybody. So it was one of those things where you could say, hey, come on our podcast.

14:08

Guests, past guests include the likes of, and he's maybe lists some of the ones you'd be proud to, like, hey, you know, see, you'd want to be on here too.

14:17

So once William Lane Craig was on board having done one with him, then that helped legitimize it.

14:25

Like, hey, if he's willing to go on the podcast and I guess I better go on there too.

14:31

That's the impression I got. So I was glad that that happened. I know he's made quite an impact and he's been a very, he's certainly really influential.

14:47

I don't, I'm not a fan boy. You know, there's a tendency just because we think of him in a certain way to think, well, then we're fan boys.

14:57

No, he can't deny his influence, you know, but no, he's definitely, there's a lot of things

15:04

I really enjoyed enjoying about William Lane Craig, but I'll tell you later what things

15:11

I really enjoy about certain people I've learned from. So I remember interviewing

15:18

Greg Kokel when his book tactics came out. At the time that his book tactics came out was when, if you want to say someone was, you know how someone gets saved and it's like, this is their like, they're on fire time, you know, and they're trying to evangelize everybody.

15:35

Yes. Well, this was my coming into apologetics time where I was just like, this is the best thing ever.

15:42

And that book had just come out. And I was like the first person to review it on Amazon. And I was just like, this is awesome.

15:50

And so I remember interviewing him and thinking, now that's the best, you know, I would just remember at the time thinking,

15:58

Greg Kokel, man. That was awesome. The Greg Kokel, that's right.

16:04

Yeah. But no, I had him on a while back. And he, it's funny, he actually, we had a great conversation and then afterwards when we were off air,

16:15

I'm sure he wouldn't care if I said, he goes, it wasn't that bad. You're pretty good. You know, I like your confidence, blah, blah, blah.

16:21

He goes, I just want to make one correction. You said one thing that you appreciate about our ministry is that we have intentionality.

16:31

I don't think that's the right word, Eli. Intentionality has to do with, you know, the directedness of, you know, like, you know, how you direct yourself towards an action where he's like, you want to say that we do things intentionally or something along those lines.

16:43

I was like, Greg Kokel's like, thank you for critiquing me. I like, I feel like a loser now, you know. You should have been thinking, well, if that's the only thing he can call me on, thank

16:53

God. I should have responded. I was like, well, what led you to that conclusion? I didn't think that I was using the word the way that, you know,

16:58

I could have just used the text. But go ahead, I interrupted. Why don't you continue on there?

17:03

Just one more thing before you go, Greg. That's right. Now there's a few other ones that, you know, we were talking about how, if you get, if you feel like you've had a good interview, what does that look like?

17:16

And like you mentioned, there are certain ones where during the interview, the person will say, wow, that's a great question.

17:23

Or, you know, that was good. You know, that's really thoughtful or something like that.

17:28

I remember interviewing J .P. Moreland about his book, The Kingdom Triangle, which I think is a great book because it makes a case for like power, love, and a sound mind.

17:39

You know, having a balanced Christian, powerful witness and, you know, loving God with your mind, but also having a spiritual life and also just being well -rounded.

17:49

Anyway, so I remember saying something. It was either that book or another book he wrote that was similar, like a more popular level version of it.

18:00

And I remember summarizing the book. I said, well, it seems to me your book is blah, blah, blah.

18:06

And he's like, yeah, you know, I couldn't have put it better myself. So I felt like, you know, when you hear things like that, or there was

18:15

Gary Habermas, I remember him saying like a couple of times, wow, you know, that was a really good question, you know?

18:23

That was a good, that was a good Habermas impression. Hey, we're both from Michigan, you know? Okay, there you go.

18:29

That's awesome. When I argue for the resurrection, no, me and Chad, when we show chatter offline, this is when we do all our apologist impressions, you know, like when so -and -so meets so -and -so, what does it sound like?

18:43

Hey, David Wood has, I don't know if you've seen David Wood's video when he did an impression of Lee Strobel.

18:48

It was hilarious. I gotta find it. I'll send it to you if you haven't seen it, but it's really good. Yeah, I wanna see that.

18:56

So yeah, the ones where, you know, and what makes that happen is back to, you know,

19:03

I thought to myself, well, I did read every single one of your books and write reports on them and highlight them and go back and prepare and, you know, listen to every single one of your lectures and watch all your debates.

19:16

So yeah, I know what the content, so I just need to tease out some details here.

19:23

So that's what makes it good for the interviewee is that they don't feel sort of insulted that you're reading from the card that I got in the post, you know?

19:37

A couple of ones that I enjoyed was like the likes of Michael Behe, Casey Luskin talking about intelligent design.

19:45

When those interviews happened back in the day, that was when that whole like intelligent design and Richard Dawkins and new atheism was really popping.

19:55

So to do those interviews during that time when it felt like when this releases, everyone's going to pounce on it, you know, that was kind of cool because it felt like it was facilitating what people were really looking for at the time.

20:10

Right. And that was kind of cool. And there were some ones where I really felt like I stepped in it.

20:20

There was a one with Norman Geisler where it's like, I felt like I made him mad.

20:27

They do call him Storm and Norman. Oh, that was a nickname. He would always say in his talks like, oh, for my morning devotions, you know,

20:36

I read atheist books because it makes me believe in God more, you know, stuff like that.

20:42

So I was big on like, I want to find out what sort of spiritual disciplines these apologists have, because there's more to it than just being brains.

20:51

Sure, sure. And so I'm like, okay, what's your spiritual disciplines? You know, you say you read these atheist books, but what do you really do?

21:00

He's like, well, I don't forget exactly what he said, but it was like, he was very, I got the impression he was not pleased that I would question that he wasn't telling the truth.

21:10

Seriously, I read Richard Dawkins every morning, you know, just to discuss my faith. Here's my 365 day readings of, you know, the selfish gene or something.

21:19

But now there was another one, and this goes to show why you need to prepare and not just crowdsource your questions.

21:30

Probably like, I wasn't very excited about say Elvin Plantinga, because I'm not like a

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Plantinga fan. I didn't read a lot of his stuff. I've got a bunch of stuff that I have yet to read.

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But to me, that was like, whoa, I just scored this big interview coming up.

21:50

To be safe here and not botch this, I better ask people to tell me what they want to hear.

21:57

Instead of doing this stuff myself and wanting to know, and, oh, you know, here's what

22:03

I understand. Can you explain this for people? I kind of crowdsource the questions, thinking this is the surefire way to give people what they want.

22:12

And I remember having to edit out some of the responses because I said, what would you say, blah, blah, blah.

22:19

And he's like, I don't think I'd say anything. And I'm just like,

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I'm hanging there. I'm just like, this is why I'll never go live. Because you ask

22:31

Elvin Plantinga a question like, hey, you got any good stories? No, not really.

22:38

That's what it felt like. No, well, that's funny because I just recently watched an interview with William Lane Craig.

22:47

And I think it was in Capturing Christianity. And he was asked an interesting question.

22:53

And you know how William Lane Craig, he's a very intelligent guy, but he's got kind of this like brilliant, cheesy scholar humor.

23:02

Does that make sense? Does that make sense? Yeah. And so I think the question was, what was the funniest thing that you ever experienced during a debate?

23:11

And he goes, he thinks about it. He goes, well, there was this one time, Cameron, where I debated the atheist philosopher,

23:18

Anthony Flew. And then he goes to tell this like story where his microphone,

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Anthony Flew's microphone wasn't working and he got very flustered and he started pacing back and forth. And he goes, well, he might as well just call the whole thing off.

23:33

And Dr. Craig was like, and I was afraid that he was gonna cancel the debate. And oh, he, you know how

23:38

Dr. Craig is. Oh, he was just so flustered. Oh boy. And I thought that was so crazy.

23:45

And then I'm just like, I was like, this is so awkward because it wasn't that funny, but because of the way he said it, it was hilarious.

23:53

So you never know. He can be very animated and stuff. It's classic.

23:59

Oh man. So yeah. Classic WLC. They did. That's right.

24:05

Okay. So you have Mary Jo Sharp. You have, I was gonna say Mary Jane Watson.

24:10

See Spider -Man. My son loves Spider -Man. So it's on my mind. So Mary Jo Sharp, you had

24:16

Greg Koukl, you had William Lane Craig, you had

24:21

Alvin Plantinga, who apparently he's got no cool side stories. He's just.

24:28

Okay. No, well, it was just like, it wasn't exactly that. I think the question was something about what are some great illustrations that you use with your students?

24:38

I can't really think of any at the moment. That was probably closer to the answer, but the whole thing was awkward.

24:44

There was awkward silences and I'm like stammering and stuttering. I don't know if I edited it out or what, but it was.

24:51

I have to go back and listen to that one. Okay. No, don't. That was kind of an example of how, marathon runners, they say, don't buy a new pair of shoes the day of the marathon.

25:04

It's felt like I did that, and I'm like suffering through the whole thing. Wait, were you nervous interviewing him?

25:10

I mean, Alvin, whether I know there are people who love Alvin Plantinga, they don't like Alvin Plantinga. I mean, in the world of philosophies,

25:17

I mean, regardless of what one thinks of him, he's a pretty big deal. Do you get like nervous when you interview some of these like big names?

25:25

You know, before there was, when I started out, everything was audio only.

25:32

I never did a video interview. So there was a lot of finding rapport, just like if you were talking to someone on the phone and many people were, it was like Skype to phone.

25:42

I was doing Skype calls at the time. And so some people, and even with video,

25:50

I think it has to do with some people, you can develop a really quick rapport with, and others, it's like, man, we're just not connected.

25:59

It was like, you could describe the relationship like oil and water. Like I'm just not the sort of person they think they wanna talk to.

26:09

Or you could tell that someone just shoved this into their schedule or something. Now, I don't know.

26:15

I'm not thinking of anyone in particular. Can we make this quick, please, Brian? I've got somewhere to be. Can we make this quick?

26:21

Yes, it's like, oh boy. Yeah. But yeah, anyway. So Alyssa Scott is asking, she says, what was it like interviewing the great

26:30

Eli from Revealed Apologetics? Did I intimidate you with my...

26:36

I could be an intimidating Puerto Rican. I don't know. Were you intimidated at all? No, and that was great.

26:43

Both me and Chad, we thought it was fun. It was a really easy conversation.

26:50

You know, that's again, this is one of those ones where you feel like a very quick and easy rapport.

26:57

And you're really grateful for that because it's almost like you can just start joking and not wonder if this is inappropriate to joke right now or something.

27:07

Okay, all right. So yeah, good. Just a couple more I'll throw out there.

27:12

Like I really think I've enjoyed... Ken Samples has been on the podcast a number of times just throughout the thing.

27:19

And he's always been one where I'm like, every time I talk to him, I'm like, I love that guy. You can't fault him in any way in this.

27:28

And what I mean by that is like, he's super kind. He has a really good tone.

27:34

He's very winsome. He's persuasive. He argues well, but he's not argumentative.

27:40

He knows exactly where he stands theologically. And he doesn't take a like, this is the only view sort of tone about anything.

27:50

He's just really well -rounded. You could ask him about anything and he would be able to just walk you through a way to think about that without saying something canned.

28:04

And I love that. So if I said, well, who would be a person to look up to?

28:12

I'd say, well, Ken Samples, look up to him. Let him be your mentor. In tone, in demeanor, in his studies, in his value of logic, and just being like one of those people that, you could send any one of your hurting friends or questioning or angry atheist buddies to go talk to Ken.

28:32

He'll sort you out. I love him. Another one,

28:38

I'll throw it out there just because it's different. And I would just wrote down ones that stuck out. Philosopher, Peter Crift.

28:46

He's a Catholic philosopher from in Boston. He teaches at Boston College, or I don't know if he still is, but he's one where everything

28:56

I read by him or hear him or any lecture by him, and the interview was awesome too.

29:04

He is just so interesting and so fun to listen to. And the way he communicates is amazing.

29:10

And we talked about the Socratic method and why you should learn logic and how do you prepare for apologetics dialogues and devotion.

29:20

And that was like an example of, okay, I don't agree with this guy on various things, but man,

29:27

I get so much from him. It's amazing to learn so much from someone of a different view in many ways.

29:35

But yeah, that was cool. I'll be teaching logic to my eighth graders next year.

29:40

And one of the textbooks that we have is written by Creeft. And he's, you're right. He's a very clear communicator.

29:47

And definitely he seems like an enjoyable person to speak with. If I can think in terms of, you said something about Ken Samples being like a model.

29:55

I always thought about kind of this Mr. Potato Head apologist. If I can grab little elements of,

30:01

I love to debate like a James White, but carry myself like a William Lane Craig or a

30:06

Ken Sample and have this weird mixture of all these different features. And I think that's one of the benefits of being able to speak with a wide variety of people.

30:14

You're able to really just learn what you think is good and useful.

30:20

And also things that like, you know what? I'm not sure I would do it that way. So I think that's super helpful. I was part of this men's group one time and they said, well, who is the biggest mentor in your life or something?

30:32

You know, everybody did this exercise and they all kind of came back and say, well, there's no one person.

30:38

It's my dad taught me this and my uncle taught me that. And this teacher taught me this.

30:44

And so I'm pulling all these elements in order to create this composite mentor or model.

30:51

And I see that is a way that maybe men or kids are influenced by like father figures or role models in their lives.

31:02

But at the same time, you can think of it that way when you're being educated in whatever field you're in.

31:08

In this case, apologetics, I think we need to look at the things that are key features and personality traits or disciplines that people emulate, that there are really good models of that.

31:23

And you take that and you say, okay, I'm gonna make that mine. I'm gonna emulate how this person communicates.

31:31

I'm gonna emulate how this person has devotion in their life. I'm gonna emulate how this person is cool and calm.

31:39

I can emulate this person, how they're bold. I'm gonna emulate their study patterns. Oh, so -and -so reads in this way and he has this, how he works through books this way.

31:49

Cool, I'm gonna do that. And then you're like, yeah, this is, I don't have a mentor.

31:55

I've got many mentors and it's sort of a composite, you know? And at the same time, there are ones

32:03

I look to today and I think, okay, they made this mistake.

32:09

They made that mistake. I'm not gonna make this mistake. I'm not gonna make that mistake.

32:14

And it should be a sobering warning. And there's certain traits where people have.

32:22

I'm like, well, I'm never gonna interact that like they do. You know, I'm not gonna be anything.

32:28

I love everything about them, but this is just a flaw. And instead of like making, you know, shining a light on that in a negative way or trying to gossip to people about it, you know, you could just say,

32:41

Lord, help me to learn from that. You know, help me to see that, yeah, that's harming that person's witness.

32:49

I think it is. So I'm certainly not gonna do that. In a way, hopefully that negative thing can be redeemed because, hey, it kept me from doing it.

33:01

Going down that path, whether it's sin or just a negative way of communicating or, you know, stuff like that.

33:07

Well, that's part of the process, I think, right? When we see negative aspects, I mean, we're learning from that, right?

33:12

But the beauty of it is, I mean, just mentioning this bringing together of all these things that we can learn from.

33:18

I think God set it up that way on purpose. I mean, the family of God is just that, a family of God, we are there for one another.

33:25

We all function in different capacities with different expertise, right? I'm not, you know,

33:31

I'm not a historian. I'm kind of a more bigger picture, theological, overarching, philosophical perspective, whereas there are people who pay very much close attention to a lot of the details that that's where I can learn from.

33:43

So there's a lot that we can learn from each other as the family of God, but even in families, there's always the drunk uncle that's invited to the wedding and that doesn't, it's very embarrassing in front of people.

33:54

You know, that's just the nature of the beast. So yeah, very good. Was there anything else you'd want to add in terms of an interesting interview that you've had in the past before I move to my next question?

34:07

Only because you said historian and I remembered that I wrote it down, but I didn't mention it.

34:14

Historian Paul Mare, Paul L. Mare. I loved that interview. That was excellent. He's so cool.

34:19

And he talked about the historicity of the first Christmas and historicity of Jesus and stuff.

34:26

That was cool because you're like, wow, this guy's, it's not just information. This is like,

34:31

I like talking to this guy or listening to him talk. He has an energy about him, doesn't he? He seems excited about the things he's saying and it makes you excited when you're listening.

34:39

Yeah. Yeah, excellent. I love that interview. Guys, all the interviews that we're discussing are still available on Apologetics 315 on their podcast.

34:47

So I highly recommend if you guys already are familiar with it, great. But if you know anyone who's looking for apologetic content, definitely point them into the, in the direction of Apologetics 315.

34:58

There's videos, there's articles, and of course there's the podcast. So definitely check that out. All right, my next question for you,

35:04

Brian, is what are your favorite topics to discuss when you're considering a guest to have on?

35:10

Are you kind of random? Is it just wherever the wind blows you? You know what? I think I wanna talk to this person about A, B, and C.

35:16

Are there certain themes within apologetics or theology that really interest you and are really the object of what you wanna speak about most of the time?

35:25

When the interviews podcast started, it was sort of based around, I was just consuming a lot of content because I was doing a master's degree in apologetics.

35:37

And so I would do, say, I would be focusing on, say, all atheism stuff and I would read tons of books along that topic.

35:44

And then I'd be listening to lectures based on those things. And so I would be going through a topical range of things.

35:54

And so when it came to like apologetic methodology or something, I would be talking to Rob Bowman or someone who's like surveyed those sorts of things.

36:05

So it would be sometimes based on books a lot of times. Like I would read the book and I'm like, yeah,

36:12

I need to interview this author and then talk about the book. Sometimes people wanna promote their book or it's a new book release.

36:19

And so more so nowadays, that's just the way books are promoted, get it out on podcasts.

36:25

So if you hear a book that's a new release, many times it's because the authors contacted you.

36:35

But no, I think I usually have read much of the person's stuff and think, well, who would

36:42

I want to interview next? Well, I think people need to hear from so -and -so. So that would be one thing as far as what topics that would guide it.

36:51

Some people are just, they're historians, so you talk about their thing. One thing

36:57

I would try to do, my goal, like certain filters I run stuff through.

37:03

Like the filter I ran through, all my stuff through before when

37:08

I was doing the podcast by myself was this is a resource for people who want to become better apologists.

37:17

So I would always ask towards the end of the interview, what advice do you have for future apologists?

37:24

What advice would you have? What pitfalls should they avoid? So I was always keen to know if I could ask three set questions for anyone and just stick it at the end of every interview, it would be what are important disciplines for an apologist, things relating to character and spiritual development, what pitfalls to avoid, and then what advice would you have for them?

37:49

So those are key things I think that are trying to build, not just inform people, but I'm thinking, okay, because you could give this to so -and -so, hey, they have questions about the historicity of the resurrection.

38:05

You could send them a podcast as an answer or a resource, but I was thinking more so that this is a podcast, but the podcast itself in its inception was this is for the apologetic student.

38:19

And it is training them in the topic and in how to cultivate their spiritual life and how not to make mistakes and be silly.

38:28

So that's kind of what guides me in certain filters I run stuff through. Now, my overall filter is, is this going to create value and is it gonna be fun?

38:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I have to be looking forward to it because if I'm not, then that's gonna come through.

38:51

And if it's not gonna create value, you shouldn't be listening. I'm wasting your time,

38:57

I'm wasting my time. It has to build up the body of Christ or it's got to create some sort of value because otherwise

39:04

I'm just noise. And so hopefully having that filter in my mind when I'm trying to compose something or think about who we're gonna interview or what are we gonna talk about, that's what

39:15

I'm thinking. Right. All right, well, very good. That's very helpful. Aaron Vaughn asked,

39:21

Eli, was Scott Oliphant hard to interview? Do you have an impression for him, please? I cannot do an impression of Scott Oliphant, but I'll tell you one thing,

39:29

Brian, I thought this was funny, is when I interviewed, I had Dr. Oliphant on twice. And the first time he refused to have his camera on.

39:38

So it was this awkward, like there was just this kind of like the little blank emoji thing, a little fake little person there.

39:46

And I remember before going live, I'm like, are you sure? This is typically, it's gonna be on YouTube and stuff.

39:51

Are you sure? It's not a big deal. And he's like, no, no, okay, I'm fine. I'm like, okay, let's go.

39:58

So I ended up interviewing him and it was just - He's a kindred spirit then. Yeah, but he did come on the second time and his camera was on.

40:05

But I remember that being a little bit awkward there. But at any rate, I really enjoyed your interview with Oliphant.

40:12

Did you have him on more than once or is it just that one time? I thought it was an excellent interview. It was just the once.

40:19

Okay. But it's been a little while since I've listened to that one. So I know we talked about some presuppositionalism stuff and whatnot.

40:28

But yeah. Okay. All right, Slam RN has a question.

40:33

Has Brian ever had Dr. Lydia McGrew on since she has now written three books on the New Testament? No, but I would love to.

40:41

And I am, I can't tell you what's in the plans. But that's one of the,

40:48

I'm kind of working through her books. And so unfortunately, I try to focus on one thing and then

40:56

I get distracted. And so I've got all three books. I've read through a number of her things.

41:02

And so I've just got more work to do before I feel like I'm ready. But it's certainly, definitely want to.

41:09

Yeah. All right, excellent. Thank you for that. Yeah, folks, if you have any questions that you'd like to ask Brian on the topic of his interviews, maybe you've listened to an interview that he did back in the day and you were like,

41:19

I wonder what he thinks about this or whatever. He is happy to take those questions.

41:24

Let's try to keep the questions on topic in terms of just some of the past interviews that Brian has done. That'd be greatly appreciated.

41:31

And if you have no questions and you're just enjoying the video and this interview here, that's fine as well.

41:37

So just wanted to throw that out there. All right, my next question for you, Brian, is what are the top things that you've learned about apologetics that you've been able to use in your own life?

41:50

And so I would imagine that your love for apologetics and your understanding of how important it is, it's not simply for you to have conversations with well -known

41:57

Christian thinkers. Is there anything that you've learned in your discussions that you've actually been able to use in your own context?

42:05

Whether that's teaching it to other people, like, hey, I learned this from this person, I'm gonna write this down and you incorporate it into maybe a teaching or your actual apologetic encounters when you speak with unbelievers.

42:16

What does that look like for us? Well, I think I'll kind of start with the most practical one, but then

42:26

I'll go with what I think is the core most important one. And so the practical one is the thing I've learned from the interviews, but just the other ones

42:33

I'll mention is kind of my view from learning from this journey.

42:43

And so the first one is that asking good questions is number one.

42:49

So if we're talking about doing an interview, you gotta ask good questions. But if you wanna learn, if you wanna interact, if you wanna be a good strategist, if you wanna refute, if you wanna make people think, you wanna connect with someone, how do you do that?

43:02

The best way I think is questions. So you could ask yourself the question, am

43:09

I asking the right questions? And that is a very, like a generative way of getting yourself on track.

43:16

What am I trying to do? What is my goal here? How am I trying to do it? So asking yourself questions, asking other people questions, like if you wanna learn something, you gotta ask questions.

43:27

So as long as you're talking to, like having an apologetic conversation, the questions are the thing that's gonna give you the diagnosis of where is this person at in their sort of belief system.

43:41

It also is the way to connect with people. It's the way to start conversations.

43:47

I mean, how do you have a conversation unless there's a question? So being a good questioner is really important.

43:54

Now, if you're coming up with a strategy for something, and this is just showing you how questions like affect everything, if you asked, wouldn't it be better if you asked questions rather than making statements?

44:08

How could you, like, what are we trying to do? How are we trying to do it? Those sorts of things. I think refuting false ideas is best done with questions because it's sort of that Socratic method.

44:21

You know, we're Socrates. If he wanted to tie people in knots - You can't edit that out,

44:26

Brian. It's staying there. I meant to say Socrates, and I always mess it up. Socrates, that's right.

44:32

Excellent. That's another 80s reference. I caught what you did there. So yeah, so Socrates, he could really tie people in knots just by asking questions.

44:43

But the idea there is that you're getting other people to think, lead them in the conversation, or if it's connecting with people.

44:54

So I think the stuff that Greg Kogel has brought into awareness in the apologetic community with asking, like, the

45:04

Columbo question and how did you come to that conclusion, that's, like, got everybody in on step one.

45:11

But I think that questions just need to be just woven into everything.

45:16

Not just those magical questions that are described in tactics, but there's more questions than just those, you know, and you could kind of formulate them.

45:29

What would they look like if they were yours? So that would be, like, the number one apologetics tool,

45:37

I think. Because it helps even if you don't know the answer, you can ask questions.

45:42

Well, you know, I don't really, I wonder why you ask that, or why is that an objection for you?

45:47

Why is that an obstacle for you? So not just like, oh, I'm trying to buy time because I don't have anything to say here.

45:54

But, you know, find out what's the question behind their question. Well, you know, they have an objection about this.

46:02

You know, why, how did you get to, you know, what happened, something happened in your life to make that important to you or whatever.

46:09

So I'm just trying to show there that questions are real important in, like, exploring stuff with people.

46:16

Now, I think the main thing, though, is it's not what you know, but who you know.

46:24

Who I know basically means my relationship with God, you know, on a couple different levels.

46:36

If my relationship with Christ is shot and it's fake, then this is pathetic charade

46:44

I'm doing. So it's not how clever I can be, but because this is a substitute for a genuine

46:54

Christian life. So I think it's easy for apologetics to become a pseudo spirituality because you're talking about, talking about Christianity somehow and being growing in your rank, so to speak, in your own head, because you've learned things.

47:11

But the question is, are you growing closer to Christ? So that's your personal aspect that you could be self -deceived in if you're not attentive to that.

47:22

But the other aspect is, so that's your personal thing. But when you're interacting with people, it also means that it doesn't matter what you know, but who you know, because it's the

47:32

Holy Spirit and God leading you and God doing his work through you and you being a holy vessel for his purposes, you could be inept in your education and be used more of God.

47:47

So I'm doing my best to be a workman that shows himself approved and fit for the master's use and cleansing myself to be a vessel of righteousness.

48:00

I'm doing my best for that, but I'm depending on God to do the work.

48:07

I can't think that I'm going to do it without him. I'm just gonna be apart from the vine.

48:14

So that's the idea there, kind of come out little sideways and out of my mouth incorrectly, but that focus on your personal relationship with God and apologetics, not distracting you from that.

48:32

And then making sure that you're so filled with the Holy Spirit that you could get some things wrong in your method or in your content or your facts, or you could stumble over your words, but you're going to spiritually leave a stone in their shoe.

48:51

Not just, oh wow, now I've got something to think about. What about also, wow, why do

48:58

I feel strange? Why do I feel affected after that conversation? Why can't

49:04

I sleep? Why when he talks, do his words penetrate me?

49:10

Maybe this is like a romantic idea of woo -woo. Maybe you could take it that way.

49:16

But I do think that there are conversations I've had with people where I don't remember what

49:24

I said, but I remember it went in. It penetrated the conversation and it felt like the presence of God was in the conversation.

49:38

And that does not come from, oh, how many books did you read? Who do you hang out with in the apologetics community?

49:44

It just comes from I put my hands up before God and to say, fill me, change me, shape me.

49:56

I surrender, I'm full of filth, cleanse me, help me to walk holy.

50:03

And of course we fail, but I think that posture of our heart is so important to bring, to bear.

50:11

And it's not a tool of apologetics. It just means that you've got

50:18

Jesus with you. I'm sorry, I'll end here in a second. I mean, everything you're saying,

50:24

I think is so important because a lot of people who watch this channel or just watch apologetic content and talk a lot about God as this nebulous hypothesis, forget the reality of God's part in the very nature of the conversation.

50:38

So I don't feel like you're just blabbing. You are saying something that people who do apologetics need to hear.

50:46

And so please continue. PASTOR MIKE So remember when the disciples were going around and preaching in that name and saying, this is the way, the first Mandalorians.

51:01

PASTOR STEVE That's a good one. PASTOR MIKE And then everybody was like, wow, they've got power.

51:11

These are uneducated men, but we could tell they've been with Jesus.

51:17

So I love that phrasing in, forget what verse it is. See how uneducated

51:22

I am. They were uneducated men, but they could tell they'd been with Jesus.

51:31

So maybe it would be better if they were educated. Maybe they could book into the

51:38

Hall of Tyrannus and do six weeks seminars. But these were just fishermen.

51:43

So when it comes to the power they had, the kingdom of God is not talk, but power.

51:51

So back to J .P. Moreland, why I liked his book, The Kingdom Triangle, because he says, hey, guys, if you're all over here on the brain side and you don't have the power side, what good is it?

52:03

So there's that aspect where the kingdom of God isn't talk, but power. And so what is our prayer life like as Christian apologists?

52:14

Because really, if we think apologetics is about making a case for the truth of Christianity, as if we're at the

52:20

Areopagus, let's say you were told, hey, next week you're going to the

52:25

Areopagus. Would you be reading or would you be praying? They might kill you.

52:32

You might get torn to shreds. Well, now you're going to be reading. You're going to be praying. So it's that idea of where's our dependency?

52:40

Where do we think our power is coming from? It's got to come from like, could you actually say,

52:48

I'm trying to live in revival? I'm trying to live in. Am I in revival?

52:54

I don't know. Am I trying to live in revival? I hope the answer is yes, because then at least you can, you're it's like the this, you know, maybe there's no water coming out, but the tap is open.

53:08

I have opened the tap and I am trying to get the thing flowing. You know, that's the sort of thing

53:13

I'm thinking about. Maybe a mental shift that we have to do in apologetics is how can we tie this idea of I'm on fire for the

53:24

Lord Jesus Christ. I am devoted to him and I keep that secret and I don't show anybody what that looks like, but everybody can see it.

53:34

Think what you will of John Wesley. He made a great impact. And one of the things I think he said was, I just get out there and burn.

53:42

I just set myself a fire and everyone comes to watch me burn. So there was an aspect of, yeah, he was super brilliant.

53:49

He was smart. He was educated. He was philosopher, if you want to call it that in certain ways.

53:57

And, you know, brilliant person, but he had a relationship with God and he was on fire and he was full of passion.

54:05

So there's that passion aspect. If there was anything I could bring to bear to the apologetics community, and maybe that's my next thing.

54:16

Can there be a revival in the apologetics community so that we can see we're getting together for apologetics prayer meeting?

54:30

Something like that. So just a few thoughts, I guess. Yeah, I'll do.

54:36

That's excellent. I think, again, I think that's something that we need to hear. So if I can ask you then, cause I know that as you are reading books and you're preparing to come up with questions and things like this, how do you balance, you know, this issue of, you know, cause we all run the risk of reading more books about apologetics than we actually read the

54:56

Bible. How do you balance that in your own life? And how can you speak to that and kind of give advice to people who are listening?

55:03

Yeah, only advice I can give in this is based upon my learning from failure. So I'm not saying this from a high pedestal, but I know the danger.

55:15

And the danger is that, you know, new content is always more fun.

55:23

A new book that you can download on Kindle is more exciting to potentially read than the 10 ,000 of them that are sitting on your shelf.

55:32

So there's that temptation that we're just getting a dopamine hit from apologetics content or the next debate or some sort of book from our favorite guy or something like that.

55:44

So realize that there's that aspect just cause you're excited about it doesn't mean this is what you should be spending your time doing.

55:51

So back to asking good questions, like what's the best use of my time? If I could only read one thing today, what would

55:59

I read? You know, well, I would only read the Bible. So that should be the first thing.

56:05

And for me, what that looks like is I don't sit down usually to read the

56:10

Bible. I have an audio version of it that I really love. Like I can really get into it.

56:16

But which one is it? I'm curious. I like the audible version of the NASB 2020.

56:23

I think it's, it's, it balances like it's specific enough. So that I'm not wondering how do they paraphrase that?

56:32

And it's narrated finally with a good voice. It doesn't annoy me. It's separated into chapters in a way that I can find it and not get lost.

56:41

It's like the optimal Bible. But here's, here's what I would also suggest. Read it at normal speed.

56:48

Don't read it at double speed. I say I listen to all my content, like as fast as I can understand it.

56:54

Like, so maybe two speed, two and a half. Sometimes I'm pushing three. But when it's the

57:00

Bible, I'm like, nope, I won't refuse to listen to it fast. I have to listen to it normal speed and think about it.

57:07

And so that's, that's helpful. And I, sometimes I find myself thinking, well, if I, after I've listened to, like,

57:14

I'll listen to that first. And then, is that the primary way you read your

57:20

Bible? Is it actually, it actually is. Yeah. Now I will use logos for study.

57:28

And sometimes I'll sit down and I'll read the, this version.

57:35

Yeah. It's just, it's just because I have a hard time sitting still.

57:42

And that's, that's a weakness, you know? But at the same time, I'm, I am reading.

57:48

And then I, I read it before bed. Like I'll, I'll set it, set it to,

57:53

I'll read Old Testament before bed. So usually I can fall asleep during the Old Testament.

57:58

And it's like, I didn't really, you know, it's more narrative. Or it's the

58:05

Proverbs or Psalms or something, you know? But that's how I try to, like, share, keep the word in me.

58:11

I listened to the word of promise. The one that's like overly theatrical in the beginning with the way or when the apostle falls in prison and he's writing, you could hear him, you know, writing on the papyri.

58:23

And then you could hear the, the guards in the background. I need to be, as I'm an audio person, you're right.

58:28

Like people think, oh, you probably study your Bible. I mean, I have like my study Bible and I use it, but primarily I need to just be immersed.

58:35

Like I want you to take me and transport me to the first century. And I'm in the audience listening to Jim Caviezel doing the voice of Jesus.

58:43

He does the voice of Jesus on the, on the word of promise. Have you watched The Chosen? What do you think of that?

58:49

Have you seen it? I have, and I, I like it a lot. And again, see, now you asked me a question

58:56

I have to get in a soapbox about. There are so many different criticisms of that show.

59:02

And the director himself says it all the time and ad nauseum.

59:07

This is not a substitute for the Bible. Yeah. I'm taking, you know, some, what would you say?

59:17

I'm taking some liberal kind of. Artistic liberty. Yeah. Artistic liberty. The point is that people get interested in reading the

59:24

Bible and still you have people complaining. Well, that's not in the Bible. That's not in the Bible. This is a bad show because of this.

59:31

And they're Mormons that are helping with the lighting. Therefore Mormonism. It's just so insane.

59:37

So I like the show a lot and it does for me. What, believe it or not, your podcast does for me.

59:44

When I listen to your podcast, it makes me want to study. Like after I had a conversation, like great,

59:50

I just listened to another apologetics 315. Now I got to buy like two more books and I need to study a topic. When I watch chosen or one of my favorite,

59:58

Jesus of Nazareth, the one that was made in the seventies. I love, I love that movie. It makes me want to sit down and read my

01:00:04

Bible. Like, and I think in terms of that, just the inspiration to kind of go back to the source material.

01:00:10

I think there's use in that. I mean, obviously it's not the word of God itself, but I enjoy it.

01:00:15

And I watch it with my wife and we, and you know, if anything weird pops up, we talk about it. It's not a big deal.

01:00:20

But there you go. Sorry for you got me on my soap box there. No, no, I, I, I concur. I concur.

01:00:26

Okay, good, good. Um, so now you threw me off. I don't know what my next, oh, here we go. So, uh, here's a question, uh, from Alyssa Scott.

01:00:35

What are some of your tips for coming up with best kinds of questions and don't say read tactics?

01:00:43

Although I highly recommend you read tactics, but go ahead. Yeah. Well, you could, you could do a real simple thing.

01:00:50

Who, what, why, when, where, how, those are the different starts of questions. But I think the how and why, uh, those are, those ones kind of give you another layer.

01:01:04

So you just think, how can I go deeper? Well, anytime you say how you start seeing possibilities.

01:01:11

Anytime you see, say why you start seeing motivations and purpose. So what is a question that gives you definitions?

01:01:21

So you've got to have that clarity. Usually you don't have to say when to people too often, but I mean, if you're in a conversation, uh, you know, think of if you, if you want to like break the ice, just figure out something you can use with those questions.

01:01:37

I mean, back to when you could just say, so when did you start going to church here? You know, if you're meeting new people,

01:01:43

I think it comes to my mind because I am at a relatively new church. Thank God.

01:01:49

It is amazing. I'm so happy. And, uh, so I'm trying to break out of my comfort zone and talk to people.

01:01:57

And so, you know, this is a helpful thing, but that would be my tip is just, uh, focusing on, um, how and why, and just try to peel back layers.

01:02:09

And think you gotta, you gotta know, you have to kind of come to the, you come with curiosity, you know, have an agenda in the sense of actually being curious.

01:02:20

Yeah. Excellent. I want to put up a comment here from Simon Larson. He says, he says, listen to Matt Slick live and you'll learn good questions.

01:02:27

I know it kind of sounds funny, you know, like, oh, listen to this and you'll, but, but actually, um,

01:02:33

I've learned a lot about how to ask questions by listening to people who ask good questions.

01:02:39

So whether it's listening to a Matt Slick podcast or listening to Apologetics 315 or Revealed Apologetics or a

01:02:45

William Lane Craig, you know, whatever. You can learn a lot from, you know, listening to conversations that other people have and kind of analyze, well, why did they ask that question the way that they did?

01:02:56

What are they trying to get at? And so I think that actually, whether they were kind of just saying this in passing, I think that's actually a good idea.

01:03:02

Listen to people who ask good questions. That's a good way to do that. All right. I have a few more questions for you and then we'll wrap things up.

01:03:09

We're at the top of the hour here. And I really am enjoying this conversation. I think you're doing an excellent job giving us some truth, man.

01:03:15

You moved very gracefully from the intellectual kind of, man, you know, we, you know, we talk about these issues here and then you transition to that very important aspect of having our heart engaged as well as our mind.

01:03:27

I thought that was excellent. But let's kind of go into some more superficial kind of questions, but fun nonetheless.

01:03:34

Who are your top three favorite apologists of all time that if you, if there were

01:03:40

Apologetics trading cards and you didn't have these three and you were like, I need to get these three, you know, with their stats, you know, he's defeated this many atheists and whatever the case may be.

01:03:52

Who are your top three favorite apologists? Now, here's what

01:03:58

I don't, I don't have favorites. I was going to say, I don't have favorites. Jesus is my favorite, you know, something like that.

01:04:07

The Apostle Paul, the Apostle Paul. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I think if you think about impact, the impact that they've had broadly is one aspect, but also just like, wow, my life would be different if that person didn't exist, like wouldn't be doing what

01:04:26

I'm doing. I would say it would have to be William Lane Craig, not from the fan, again, not from the fan boy thing, but man, he had an impact.

01:04:36

The stuff that, you know, certain books that were written, like Geisler and Turek's I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.

01:04:44

Look, there's certain things I don't like about that book, but there's certain things

01:04:49

I love about that book. And it had a huge impact. Greg Koukl, his book had a huge impact. I would not,

01:04:56

I would not be doing what I'm doing, probably in the same way or to the same extent if those guys hadn't made those impacts.

01:05:06

So that's one way to categorize it. But if, if I, if he said, who's, who's your favorite guy?

01:05:11

Like, like if he, if you could have him just be your best buddy, it would be Pascal.

01:05:17

And so Pascal, and here's, here's the reason I feel like, hey, this guy's awesome.

01:05:26

He was burdened by the condition of like his countrymen. And he saw that they were all apathetic towards God.

01:05:33

So when you look at his writings, you see that he was constantly thinking of how can

01:05:38

I rouse them out of their complacency? So he also, he knew all kinds of ways he could argue.

01:05:44

He was brilliant, but he knew that it wasn't enough for him just to give arguments and proofs.

01:05:49

He knew that he had to appeal to their heart and to their longings and to say, hey, you are mortal.

01:05:56

You're going to die. You're trying to distract yourself from your condition. You, you, mankind is in a terrible state.

01:06:03

He had a really biblical anthropology about man and the human condition. So that sort of informed his approach.

01:06:11

He saw where people were at. He's like, they, they're, they're like dethroned kings.

01:06:20

You know, man is like this, this fallen king. He's deposed royalty, I think is the term, one term he uses.

01:06:27

So he was person centered in the sense of this way. He was, he was focused on those people he wanted to reach, but also focused on Jesus.

01:06:36

He was back to this idea of devotion. He was super brilliant, but what was close to his heart was this personal experience he had to go ahead with God.

01:06:46

So there was a podcast, a few podcasts episodes ago where we talked a bit about Pascal and he had this experience called, which is called his night of fire.

01:06:56

And after his death, they were going through his belongings and found one of his coats.

01:07:01

And in the seam of the coat, there was this little thing sewn in there and they opened it up and they found this like parchment.

01:07:08

And it was this sort of stream of consciousness note that he had written himself from like certain hours in the middle of the night where he had an experience with God.

01:07:20

And he's like, fire, fire, God of Abraham, God of Isaac, not the God of the philosophers. And he's like,

01:07:27

Jesus is the only one I need. And it's just like, just, just writing down all of his thoughts from this experience that he had.

01:07:33

And then he, he hid it away and he sewed it into his coat and it was with him. And I just think that that's awesome because some people, you think they're cool and then you find out stuff after they're dead and it's like, well,

01:07:48

I guess they're not cool. And then you find out other from other people like, yeah, they're cool.

01:07:55

But look at what they did in secret. It was really cool because it wouldn't tell anybody. And the cool thing was that was, that was the thing he held close.

01:08:03

It wasn't like he, he was hiding something else. So that was, that was super cool. And I, I didn't,

01:08:10

I didn't think you were going to the way you started answering the question. I was not expecting you to, to say, bless a

01:08:15

Pascal. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty cool. Now you kind of brought something up there indirectly, but I hope you don't mind me asking two questions.

01:08:26

Did you ever interview Ravi Zacharias? And how did you respond to that whole controversy? When all that information came out?

01:08:33

Yeah, I did. I hope that's not too much of a personal question. No, no. I mean, that comes to mind, you know, when

01:08:40

I, when I said the thing about finding out things after people are, people are dead and secrets.

01:08:47

And, you know, that, that, I mean, everybody, through everybody, you know, and so I went back and I re -listened to that interview and heard it in a different way and tried to figure it out and process it.

01:09:05

There's been a few times in my life where similar things have happened, where I'd have a person

01:09:11

I've put up on a pedestal or a leader, church person that I was under in some capacity failed morally.

01:09:20

And so one, two, three, he would have been number four. So I've got some wounds.

01:09:29

I feel like I've got some wounds. That I've gotten over, but you know, there's still scar there, you know, kind of a thing.

01:09:37

But with him, that would be an example of, yeah, there's, there's a cool stuff you could learn from him as far as his manner of persuasion and being winsome.

01:09:50

You know, that, that was one thing that I thought like, boy, he was very winsome, you know, as far as being, you know, be able to tell stories and connect.

01:10:03

I think it was awesome. Sure. Now, in retrospect, we can all say, well,

01:10:09

I always knew there was something weird, you know. Yeah. I'm sure that people would say that, but, you know, that's just one of those ones where it's just like, sure, you just got to say, okay, maybe, you know, that he didn't start where he ended up.

01:10:29

There was a process. And it was a process that probably involved little things getting bigger and bigger and bigger and heart getting harder and harder and conscience getting seared and seared and seared.

01:10:40

But it wasn't overnight. And there was probably a lot of mental gymnastics to bring someone to the point where they could be doing that.

01:10:50

And also, well, I'm sure everyone's analyzed it somehow, but I guess that main thing would be back to that idea of having your genuine walk with the

01:11:01

Lord. You know, knowing that things are right with him.

01:11:09

Yeah. Being at the core. Well, this is random. So a guy named Ravi sends in a question.

01:11:16

Was Ravi saved? What are the chances that that? Now, obviously, we can't answer that question.

01:11:23

For all intents and purposes, from what I heard, he was unrepentant until the time of his death.

01:11:29

But again, I wasn't there at his deathbed. And I can't really speak to that. But it definitely is an interesting question to ask, given how he presented himself, right?

01:11:41

I mean, he seemed to be kind of an example to many others as to how he conducted himself and how he did his ministry.

01:11:48

And on the one hand, you said that we can learn a lot about persuasive speech and things like that by looking at some of the stuff he did.

01:11:55

But at the same time, it's kind of scary that he was that way. And there was kind of this darkness that was hiding under the surface.

01:12:04

So there's definitely a lesson to be learned when reflecting upon the ministry of Ravi Zegaria.

01:12:10

So thank you, Brian, for sharing that, sharing your thoughts there.

01:12:15

I know it's kind of a random question. It was just based upon what you said there. But all right.

01:12:21

Well, I think the final question that I have here, I don't want to keep you too long as I know it's late on your end, but I want to thank you so much for coming on.

01:12:29

This has been an excellent conversation. And it really is an honor to finally get to meet you.

01:12:35

I know I did an episode with you guys just yesterday, but just being able to see you face -to -face and speak with you, your podcast and your, if we call it a ministry, right, has impacted me in a lot of ways and continues to do so.

01:12:47

And so I just want to encourage you and Chad to keep up the great work and looking forward to just following what you guys are doing and benefiting from all the wonderful conversations that you guys are having.

01:12:57

Thank you so much. Cool. Well, thanks, Eli. I really appreciate it. And I do want to give a shout out to Chad Gross of Truth Bomb Apologetics.

01:13:05

I wouldn't be podcasting today if he wasn't my buddy and great friend and brother.

01:13:12

So thanks, Chad. I appreciate it. And I wish you were here.

01:13:18

I wish you were here. Yeah, go check out his stuff at Truth Bomb Apologetics.

01:13:24

That's truthbomb .blogspot .com. So does he have a, you said it's a blog?

01:13:30

He's got articles there and stuff like that? Yeah, he's blogging over at Truth Bomb Apologetics and he's on Twitter as well.

01:13:37

But yeah, he's my co -host and couldn't join us today. But yeah, he makes it excellent because we would have conversations for hours and I remember the first phone conversation me and him had.

01:13:52

It was like, okay, it's late. I know it's three hours, but we'll talk again soon.

01:13:58

And it was like, wow, I finally found my brother in apologetics and that's

01:14:03

Chad Gross. So I'm very grateful. Both of you have very similar sense of humor.

01:14:11

When I came onto your show, you guys, I'll let people know, we talked about presuppositional apologetics on the show that just got released on the website there on iTunes.

01:14:20

And Brian had his name on the screen, Brian Bonson and Chad Vantill, which

01:14:26

I thought was a lot of fun. You guys have a great sense of humor. You guys have excellent chemistry with each other and it's just a joy listening to you guys go back and forth.

01:14:35

Even when you don't have a guest on and you guys just cover topics on your own, I think it's great stuff. So definitely check out

01:14:41

Apologetics 315 and Truth Bomb, whatever website he just said just a moment ago, I don't remember it.

01:14:46

But definitely check that out. And guys, thank you so much for listening in. If you've enjoyed this conversation, be sure to like it, share it, and tell others about these awesome interviews, whether it's on this channel,

01:14:59

Apologetics 315 or whatever. These conversations are definitely edifying and beneficial for those who are listening in.

01:15:05

So once again, thank you so much, Brian. And that is all for this episode, guys. Take care and God bless. Bye -bye.