A Messianic Jewish Rabbi Talks Apologetics

Welcome back to another episode of Revealed Apologetics. I'm your host Eli Ayala and today I have a very special guest with me. If you guys take a look in the description to this video there is a link to Radar Apologetics, the YouTube channel, and so before I even introduce my guest I highly recommend you go over there even if it means you're clicking away here opening up another window or something like that.

If you can go over to the Radar Apologetics YouTube channel and subscribe. I've been following this channel for quite a bit and I really like what they're doing there. Radar does great interviews and teachings and things like that and so really I want people who follow my channel to go over there and support Radar Apologetics and check out their videos.

They got some good good stuff going on there. So but real quick before I formally introduce my guest just to give a heads up this is my first interview in a while. I've been pretty busy. As people know I'm a full-time teacher and I have been preparing also I'm a traveling speaker so I've been preparing for a talk a conference that I'll be speaking in up in Kansas at the beginning of November.

I'll be talking about atheism, Roman Catholicism, and how to share the gospel in both those contexts and all that stuff. So I've been trying to focus on that but I'm gonna I promise I'll try to get more interviews.

I know folks like the interviews with interesting guests and so I'm gonna try my best to to get more of those going. So a prayer for that would be greatly appreciated. All right well let's jump right in.

I have with me I'm his name is Eduardo. Look at that I'm put I just learned that he's Puerto Rican look at that and I'm Puerto Rican. Do you speak Spanish? Do you speak Spanish? Yeah I speak enough Spanish to find the bathroom or food.

Same I tell people all the time I'm a poor excuse for a Puerto Rican. I know when someone's yelling at me what they're saying but I.

Have to respond in English. So sure man for sure. If you knew if you knew more Spanish I might think you're not Puerto Rican. There's been there's been a massive move you know with less of the second and third generation you know really knowing the language.

But um you know it could be difficult you know you don't use it you lose it like everything else right? That's right that's right.

Yeah that's a good point. So but we're gonna we're gonna address you as Radar again I have here the host of Radar Apologetics so again we're kind of waiting for people to kind of flow in here if you guys can take a few moments to go over to Radar Apologetics YouTube channel and subscribe give this brother some love.

He's doing some some great work. So let's jump right in Radar. When I saw your YouTube channel and I saw you kind of identify as a Messianic Jew Jewish rabbi. Right. That caught my interest and I always thought that it was it was really cool reminded I'm kind of in this world of like interacting with atheists and Roman Catholics and things like that and I don't have a lot of opportunities to do apologetics with with Jewish folks.

And so when I saw that you were a Messianic Jewish rabbi I was like you know what let's get this guy on and perhaps he can share with us you know what are some good pointers in interacting with with Jews because a lot of people find it intimidating.

Right it's like man they know the Old Testament and and most Christians don't know the Old Testament. And so you know how what's the best way to kind of approach these folks. And so I want to ask you my first question but before I do that I want to read a scripture.

Okay and folks who are listening in I'm gonna be reading from Acts chapter 17 verse 2 from really the only inspired English version the ESV not just kidding oh my lord have mercy there's no Puerto Rican translations just okay all.

Right. So here's what Acts chapter 17 verse 2 says. And Paul went in as was his custom and on three sat on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the scriptures explaining and proving that the Christ had to suffer and rise from the dead.

And of course this was the custom of the Apostle Paul and so this kind of gives me an interesting kind of foundation to ask my question when we are sharing the faith with Jewish folks Jewish friends. Okay would you advise us to use kind of this approach not so much to enter into a synagogue but to explain from the scriptures kind of going straight to the Old Testament.

How would we approach a Jewish person and really start off you know the best way that we can with them. I think you know one of the first things.

We have to say is that every Jew is different right when we talk about if we're saying someone's orthodox someone's conservative someone's reform they're gonna have different backgrounds of knowledge different reservations to Yeshua to Jesus being the Messiah.

So it just depends who you're talking to right. But I can't help but preface that we need the Holy Spirit to lead us in all of these engagements and discussions you can have the best argumentation you could be the most articulate without the moving of the Spirit they're not gonna come to the Lord right.

So I think our goal as apologists are to put pebbles in the shoes of those who may not hold to the complete biblical worldview of Yeshua Jesus being the Messiah. If we don't put a pebble in their shoe then they would turn around and say Lord or perhaps seek the Lord and then get to get to see him.

But here goes a huge thing right. Here's even when Paul is doing this right he is reasoning them for them with the scriptures. So I agree that this is what we should be doing right reasoning from the scriptures.

The problem is that our 21st century Judaism is not the same Judaism that Paul was dealing with. We have a transformed Judaism of rabbinic Judaism that is in many ways is not even the same thing as biblical Judaism or the first century Jewish system that Paul would have been a part of.

I heard dr. James Weiss say which I'm sure you've heard him say before that it's gotten to the point where you have to convert a Mormon to Mormonism before you can take them out of Mormonism. That's right.

A lot of times and I was just said we just had a discord Bible study just a little while ago we were saying how a lot of times a 21st century Jewish soundbites don't match with the historical sources of rabbinic Judaism that they will have these soundbites that Judaism does not believe XYZ.

But yet when you go to the rabbinic sources there are things that are said that they say is not there or not part of the system like the two comings of the Messiah like the idea of the Messiah being divine these sorts of things you can find notions towards this in rabbinic literature.

The complexity of God's unity is deeply embedded with rabbinic understanding and teaching. So I think it depending upon the synagogue Paul went to that I think it depended upon his approach right. If you're talking to a Jew who's a cat right who doesn't believe in rabbinic tradition.

Well then you don't even got to go to rabbinic literature because it's not an authority for them anyway. So I think the best thing to do is let the Holy Spirit lead you and may the Lord give you the answers for it.

You know I also believe in a time and place for everything see Paul had that flow he was a Jew. He can go into a synagogue like nothing and blend in right and do what he needed to do and share the truth of the gospel.

And I'm not saying we always have to be able to blend in but the Holy Spirit has to lead us. Right. If you're gonna be outside of a synagogue preaching open-air preaching then let the Holy Spirit lead you in that and in everything.

Because if we approach it without the Holy Spirit we're gonna fail right. Mm-hmm. So I think it's really important that as you're going through that you be like Paul right you be in the Spirit seeking to give an answer for the faith right and to reason from the scriptures.

But many times you have to get traditional Jews to believe that the scripture is their final authority. Actually because we have this principle within traditional Judaism that you can't even read the Tanakh and interpret it on your own you need what's referred to as the mafarshim the commentaries come from peru shake their commentaries of the rabbis on the Torah on the Old Testament on the Hebrew Bible ash you can't even really go to it understand it yourself.

So what we have to do is show that these interpretations are inconsistent and then they're stuck with appealing to what the Bible plainly says to prove their point. Because now we've showed.

That the rabbis can't be an authority. Hmm that's great. So this looks very similar again. I just mentioned at the beginning I'll be giving a talk on Roman Catholicism. That sounds very Roman Catholic.

To suggest that a person cannot understand the scriptures in and of themselves apart from sacred tradition is it is there. Is there a one-to-one correspondence there. What's the difference. If you know the Roman Catholic understanding of the necessity of tradition and kind of this Jewish tradition that needs to be the.

Interpretive lens of scripture. Yeah what I think we have with rabbinic Judaism is that their ideas and notions of this is much older right. So Christianity you know the Church of Rome comes out of that early matrix of historical you know Christianity and so there's going to be the ideas and notions that Passover you know.

For you know as far as what Catholicism does you know I don't know about the development of Catholicism and the church being that final story. I know the talking points in the discussion and the argumentation but for me I don't know as much about that thread and that thought.

But if the Catholic Church believes that you can't understand the Bible contrary to what the Catholic Church in turn is interpreting it as and there's contradictions between what the Catholic Church is saying if there are and what the Bible teaches then you in fact you have a Gentile version of rabbinic.

Judaism. Hmm interesting. So it's kind of like it's kind of like when a when a Protestant is interacting with a Roman Catholic one of the main sticking point I tell people this all the time. So a lot of people as I'm a teacher people ask the question all the time what's the difference between Roman Catholicism and Protestant Christianity.

And you could say for example the Catholics pray to Mary. Protestants don't. Catholics pray to the Saints. Protestants don't. Catholics believe in purgatory. Protestants don't. But really the issue is and I think it's kind of a common thread what you're talking about now.

Like in terms of talking with Jewish folks the common thread is is the principle of sola scriptura. It's trying to talk to the Roman Catholic about the importance of the fact that the scripture is really the ultimate authority.

And so I what I hear you saying is that when we're talking with Jewish folks we need to kind of keep that focus on the authority of scripture because that that provides that standard and context in which we can then begin to kind of present our perspective and have a standard by which to judge who's in more in line with the.

Word of God have I got it right. Yeah for sure. And I think that what we're this is the thing that's really interesting about rabbinic Judaism though right is that they are looking at the Tanakh the Hebrew Bible the Old Testament and without a New Testament coming to the same conclusions that the disciples of Jesus came to about the Messiah his coming the things that he's gonna do.

You find these notions within there that line up completely with the New Testament. And don't mistake what I'm saying as some people might that rabbinic literature gets it all right. No it doesn't if when the rabbis are right the rabbis are right.

When the rabbis are wrong the rabbis are wrong. Right. They're not the standard to determine what's right and wrong. They just at points correlate the truth or there are odds with the truth. The position that most people hold.

These are two positions people usually have. The rabbis are always right. If the rabbis are always right just because there's rabbis their rabbis that's idolatry. If the rabbis are always wrong just because there's rabbis that's anti-semitic right.

Hmm. So we need to have the Word of God as our authority. And then whenever the rabbis correlate it correlates just like when Paul goes up to that town and he quotes the pagan poets and philosophers to them because there was a truth embedded in it doesn't mean that the prophets are the poets within philosophy are right what he said before or after.

But in that moment you were able to say look even your own prophets say we all got children right. So if we can do that with rabbinic literature we'd be right on point with expressing the very things that I believe the early disciples did.

Right. They showed the truth and some of the traditions and belief they had corrected when it was wrong. Still engage with tradition. Tradition is not bad as long as it doesn't override the Word of God.

Sure. And if we're doing that then we're in the right point. The problem is and this is the problem is very germane to what rabbinic Judaism is rabbinic Judaism because when we are thinking about the destruction of the temple in the year 70 it was a problem that both communities had the answer they're growing Jewish and Gentile believers in Jesus group and growing Jewish.

What would become the rabbinic group. The non-believing. Do you have these two groups. And both groups had to ask this answer the same question in the year 70 how do we continue a system based on a temple with no temple.

Right. For the believers in Jesus it was very easy. We preached the gospel of death birth and resurrection of the Messiah. He's coming soon. We were we're writing the words of the new cut. We're gonna continue with the truth of what God has revealed.

We're gonna we're gonna preach the resurrection of the Messiah. We're gonna go to the ends of earth. We're gonna proclaim it very easy to do what we got to do. For rabbinic Judaism is more complex because they didn't have the revelation of the new covenant coming to existence.

So what they had to do was create a system by which Judaism can maintain its its religious integrity. And this is the Mishnah which is the core rabbinic literature that dictates the life of the Jewish believer the Jewish person from beginning to end.

And this grows to become a system that's initiated that the reality is when if a person wants to do Jewish apologetics apologetics against the rabbinic Jewish system it's very hard to get initiated into the text because of the language of the mission is different from the language of the Hebrew Bible.

And then when you talk about Palestinian or Babylon Jewish Aramaic you know we think that we invented acronyms. TTYL talk to you later. BRB. Be right back. The rabbis were doing that way back in the days.

Right. And they were they themselves had shorthands and it's in another language it's old. So then so you need to be initiated into this text. This is a way of being gatekeepers to what God has. Yeah.

I think the rabbis were malicious in this. No I believe that they were attempting to salvage what was left of their biblical system that could no longer operate because of the destruction of the temple and understanding that the wrath of God has been poured out because the only time Israel's ransacked by their enemies or destroyed or being pushed out to the end or being an exiled is because of them being in disobedience to the God of Israel.

So why was the temple destroyed. Something has happened within the relationship between God and the Jewish people that forced the temple to be destroyed. So in the creation of the Mishnah if you want to answer how rabbis think or you want to talk to Jewish people you got on that stand that text.

But it's very much an initiated text. So it takes a long time to get into. So it could be really difficult. You just can't go say Isaiah 53 says this you can't just say Jeremiah this. Right. And you can't just do that because they have a lens by which they are reading the scriptures.

And if you don't understand the lens by which they're reading you're gonna be talking to different languages. And I think the principle of Paul to speak a language as someone understands is really important here.

Right. That we understand the not just the words and letters of rabbinic Judaism but the worldview. Because yes it's not the traditions or practices of Judaism that's against Jesus or Yeshua. It's the worldview.

It's the way they view the Bible. It's the way they view truth. It's the way they view their tradition as being supreme. And so that's what puts them at odds with Yeshua. Not that they pray with a prayer shawl.

Not that they wear a yarmulke. Not that he kosher keep the Sabbath. What is the problem with the rabbinic Judaism is its worldview that its tradition is divine and comes from God given to Moses on Mount Sinai.

Hmm.

Very much resonate with what you're saying because on this channel we focus a lot on apologetic methodology and so we focus on on what's called presuppositional apologetics. We don't have to get into that but there's a great emphasis upon the importance of worldviews and identifying presuppositions or interpretive lenses.

So that's that's super super important now before we kind of move into like how do we interact how do we kind of break through that barrier. Maybe you could for my audience to find some categories here.

So I heard you mentioned the the Talmud you mentioned the Mishnah and I think there's the the Gemara. Can you define those things for us so that people can differentiate between them and understand what those things are all.

About yeah absolutely. So the Mishnah it becomes this codification of Jewish law. Really this this tradition that claims to be gathered by someone called Judah the Prince Yehuda Hanasi and he gathers these these oral traditions claiming oral tradition around the year 200 and 200 250 depends where you date it.

This is the core of the oral law. It's broken out different six orders based upon seeds and women and all these things. It's basically the rules of life to keep it simple so that works. For the end basically was an interpretation of the laws in the Torah how to live and how to apply them.

So that's good for 200 250 maybe even 300 maybe 350. Now what do you do in 400 when you're in a different scenario in a different situation. This is where the additions to the Mishnah come in which are called the Gemara and the Gemara answers the questions of how to apply the Mishnah which is talking about the Torah for today.

How do we. How do we. How do we go back and figure out how to do it. This is what the Gemara of.

The Jerusalem Talmud does so real quick so you have the scripture you have like the tradition of the rabbis Mishnah Mishnah Mishnah. And then you got this other thing over here that helps you how to the Gemara.

The Gemara so you got.

Multiple layers. And this is this exactly. This is why apologetics towards rabbinic Judaism is very difficult and you don't see as many people fighting about on tick-tock because most people don't know how to engage with it.

Right. Hmm. So not only do you have the Gemara so the mission and the Gemara make the Talmud and there's one set of that in Jerusalem. Now what. About 200 years later when the people are in Babylon and they have another set of understanding of how to apply the Mishnah.

That's trying to apply the Torah. Now you have the Babylonian Talmud. It develops over in Babylon. Okay in the 7th century. But then you get to the point of the 1000s. This is when you get to the place of the legal law calls this is Rambam Maimonides where they are.

And if you don't know all these terms. Okay just the main thought is that we're consistently dealing throughout generations of people attempting to apply the Torah in their life in a legal manner. Which is really kind of a moot point because the temple is desecrated destroyed.

The people are not in the land we're talking about. You're 70 80 while they're writing these documents. So there has to be something that fundamentally changed in the relationship between God and his people due to them being in judgment.

The very existence of this sort of exiled Judaism. The Torah does not have a way to be governed in exile. It doesn't. It doesn't. The Torah knows and anticipates that the people being exiled but doesn't give you a manner of continuing in exile it doesn't have a judicial system to rule you.

The point is repent and come back to the land so that you could function the way God would design. But even in that we're looking and seeing. Okay there has to be something greater because if the whole our whole existence is exiled and being returned there has to be something more which must be the the Messiah.

So so I think this is why I think every single page of the Torah the law the first five books and all the Old Testament drip with our Messiah. You know. So understanding the way rabbis think is really important.

And that isn't that isn't. That's not easy. It's very difficult to get into that. Yeah so so I.

Guess I have a two-step question the first question we'll get to that second part so how do we how do we kind of cross that line and get into some meaningful dialogue with the Jews. But I guess from a from a non-Jewish perspective what do you think is some common misconceptions that people have of Jews.

So like I have a so I don't and I don't engage a lot of Jewish people but there are preconceptions that I have like what are some things to avoid if you can speak to people who are you know are not interacting with a lot of Jews but perhaps have a heart to share the gospel with them.

What are some common misconceptions to avoid and how can we use kind of points of clarity to make a point of contact and enter into a meaningful discussion. Yeah I think one.

Of the things that's really important is that Jews don't convert. Right. People saying Jews are converting there's no there's no converting from being a Jew because being a Jew is not a sin. Right. The conversion of the Jews have our conversions of heart right from from being distant from the God of Israel yet and then coming to Messiah Yeshua and being reconciled to him right being grafted onto the tree that they've been cut off from which is a cultivated tree.

So that's an important thing right. We shouldn't have the expectation that if Jewish people come to Jesus Yeshua that they're gonna join your church right. They might they might not. Right. So I think we need to realize that expectation that when Jewish people come to Yeshua and come to Jesus they might still worship as Jews right.

They might still wear fringes they might still keep kosher they might still be keeping the Sabbath they might still be keeping the Holy Days. You know I think there's this expectation that the salvation of the Jewish people looks like my brand of Christianity.

Hmm. Yeah. Okay and yeah so I think it's important to understand that you know you witnessing the and and look it very well might be that you know most Jews in history have come to the Lord and and a lot of them have joined churches.

We're in a different age now where we have the overabundance of Messianic congregations and they're still growing. Right. But in history most Jews came to the Lord through Gentiles preaching and them joining their churches and worshiping with them and maintaining the things that have been part of normative Christianity but we're in a space and a place in a time now that I think is very prophetic where Jewish people are worshipping the Jewish Messiah Jesus as Jews and participating in those Jewish identity markers and so I think for me that's one of the biggest things that can be a problem right.

Where if we try to superimpose what are our own non-Jewish Christian traditions or interpretations or understanding of expression of worship to God. Hmm that is took could be that we can feel is totally fine and okay have zero convictions about before the Jewish person it might not be the same right.

Hmm. So I think that's that's that could be one of the biggest hurdles I'll be interested to hear what you.

Think about that. Well well I guess now that I'm thinking that that's a great point by the way. Because we do tend we do tend to think like well I shared the gospel the Jew and so you know he's gonna become a Baptist.

And and you come to our barbecue. Yes you know we tend to think in those categories that the people who are Christian have to look like us. And we've been we might even tip our hat to the fact like well they don't have to look like us.

But we tend to think through the see things through those through those lens. How do we. So for example if we share the gospel with a Jew and they are embracing Yeshua how do we explain that fine line and relationship between what we have in Christ right a righteousness from Christ and a a fulfillment of the law and the way in which Jews worship in accordance with the law.

I mean did do Jewish people who become believers tend to be legalistic over emphasize the law even though they kind of embrace Christ. I mean that at least that that's one of the misconceptions that I see is that yeah Messianic Jews.

You know they're. It's great they worship Jesus. But sometimes you know you got to be really careful they tend to overemphasize the law and you know Christ has set us free from the law. How. What's the proper way to understand that fine balance.

Let me.

Ask you a question on December 25th when you when you go see people in your family and you go into the door what are they gonna tell you when you say good on.

December 20 Christmas. What if they told you happy holidays back. Smack them across.

The face why you be why you being so legalistic bro. I know. Yeah I know. You talk about though you feel me. Yeah I think that I think that we um we have expressions that are convictions as the Holy Spirit leads there can be different convictions.

Hmm it doesn't mean we can't hold them right. Being right being passionate about traditions and things that are brought down to us and that we're receiving. Remember because even Paul gives the Thessalonians traditions that he doesn't really give to anyone else right.

He's holding on to your traditions as you receive them. We don't hear about these for anybody else. Sure. So I think we receive traditions we receive interpretations understanding of passages that there can be malleability in right.

And I think we can be very strict and passionate about these things. I think where we get into the realm of legalism is how Jesus Yeshua defines legalism right. A legalism that chokes the Word of God where we can't operate on what God is calling us to see that God is a very legalistic God in the sense that he commands holiness from his people.

Jesus Yeshua takes the law to a greater point than even Moses did because he says if you even look at a woman with lust in your heart you've committed adultery against her right. So in many sense Jesus is more cool legalistic than Moses.

But is Jesus wrong. I think he's elevating the understanding for his disciples to operate in and the real standard of holiness. And while I'm not comparing looking at someone with lust as to wearing fringes or keeping kosher they're not the same thing.

One's moral one's an identity marker. But I think that we can be very legalistic in the New Covenant as well if we desire to be. I've met many legalistic people from various denominations. I think what we have to worry about is not so much legalism.

But do our interpretations and understandings nullify what the Word of God is telling us to do. And I think one of the biggest mistakes and hurdles for people especially those coming from the messianic movement sure is that they approach the law right as this static thing this static document when it really is dynamic and malleable it is.

It's a document that allows the spirit of its interpretation to produce things that are pleasing to God that you wouldn't think were okay. I'll give you an example about this right. Um where sacrifice is supposed to be given where were sacrifices.

Where does God commit. Yeah. What does God command sacrifices to be given in Jerusalem in the temple. Yeah. Where does Elijah offer sacrifices.

Who I don't remember. On Mount Carmel. Mount Carmel. Okay. So you're saying that there's a flexibility there. So like he didn't do it exactly. Yeah. So did Elijah break the law. Well I mean it depends now that you're saying that it's malleable I'm interested in.

Right. Because because because my my instinct is to say that not one jot or tittle. Right. Okay it's like that's the law I can't be can't be can't be broken but then to want to say malleability that's not necessarily breaking it but there's a flexibility there.

Right. So I was looking forward for.

You to explain what you mean. Yeah. So you know. So sacra even and even in judges. Right judges six. You know getting is told to offer sacrifice outside of the the chosen place. Right. That was given where God I put his name.

And so what we have here is a breaking of the black and white of the commandment. Yet a pleasingness of God to the black and white of the commandment that allows for the person to still be pleasing to God because they kept with the spirit of the law that I believe is directly part of the law itself.

You know you know about the daughters of the loft out. I always forget the name in English but it's a love card so low for heart. It's in numbers. And the law says that only sons can inherit the land when you enter the land.

Now there was the daughters of loaf out. Okay we got a problem. Only daughters. It's look we can't inherit land because we only have daughters. They go up to Moses. Does Moses say we have an oral tradition going back there that God gave us.

And we know every interpretation and the right way to do that. I have the answer for the situation. Remember this is a situation the law says only sons can inherit. This is the problem. Our father only has daughters.

Moses doesn't say I know what to do. Because God gave me on Mount Sinai the exact interpretation of everything because it's what we're in Judaism. Teachers. Moses knew everything that was going to occur.

God revealed it to him. But hold on. Moses has to go back up to God to ask him about this new situation and condition that presented itself that allowed a malleability in the law that was already there that God gave.

He allows the daughters to inherit the land. Okay when you get to Hezekiah and they're celebrating Passover. The first Passover had passed. I don't know if you're familiar but there are two Passover. Some people missed that there's two Passovers.

There's one on the 14th of Nisan and there's one on the 14th of the month one month later. So the celebration of a second Passover was if the people were impure so they could participate in the consuming of the korban paste of the sacrifice and celebrate.

So it came to the second Passover in the days of King Hezekiah and the people. Some of the people were still impure. You know what King Hezekiah does he kills all the people because they're impure. And he doesn't let them say no.

No. He goes up to God. This is what happened goes with the God says God if you would please accept your people even though they are not ritually pure in accordance with the law. Will you accept your people and provide.

He doesn't use these words but provide some malleability and grace over what you've given in the black and white so that spirit can be kept. And God allows them to participate in Passover. So even though I apologize so would this.

Be kind of similar to Jesus's disciples you know picking the grain on the Sabbath.

Or is that right. Because okay it's different because the picking the green and Sabbath is actually a tradition within rabbinic Judaism that goes back to the Pharisee period. Mm-hmm. On the other side this is breaking a direct commandment that if you're impure and clean you can't partake of the Passover.

I see is it breaking a black and white. These this one thing is breaking the tradition of understanding or interpretation of a verse. The other thing that we're talking about which is in the Bible is a breaking on the surface level right of the black and white and what a commandment says that came from the mouth of God.

So so what do we have in in this scenario. We're showing a malleability in the law that allows God to still maintain his holy standard but maintain his holy standard while still be sovereign just and graceful right with his people and full of mercy.

And it's requested and rock amoeba kindness to his people. Where there's this malleability. And so many people on my camp and many people on the other camp of the church side the traditional church side and I don't say like my camp your camp just saying those that would be messing and those that would not we're still one body.

Many times we find legalism but legalism on both sides because we develop these golden calves not knowing that there is a malleability in the law and within the Hebrew Bible itself that is pretty pretty pretty interesting like I'll get people who are Messianic who tell me look I'm walking I'm doing Torah.

I'm doing doing Torah. Right. I'm doing Torah. They never stone the witch. They never bring their rebellious kid out to the field they not sleeping separate from their wife when she's on her time during the month.

So what I'm saying is and that's not throwing shade on anybody. I'm just saying that that's the law was never designed to be a system participated in in exile right. It was always meant to be a judicial system for the land.

And even though it's a judicial system for the land doesn't mean we still can't operate in some of those identity markers. And I can clarify what I mean by identity markers in a little bit. But it doesn't mean we still can't operate in these identity markers.

But just know that like Hebrews 7 12 tells us if there's a change of the priesthood there's a change of the law. And because there's been a change of the priesthood there's a change of the law. And the law is not just what was given on Mount Sinai but it is God's teaching from generate Genesis to Revelation over all generations and and it contains within itself this malleability.

And I think the problem is with Greek and Hebrew and English right. Because if the Bible was in Spanish bro we'd be good. You know I'm saying so the word Torah has a meaning of teaching and law has a double meaning.