April 9, 2018 Show with Fred Malone on “The Baptism of Disciples Alone: A Covenantal Argument for Credobaptism Versus Paedobaptism” (Part 2)

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth Listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com

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This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Monday on this ninth day of April 2018 we have a

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Fantastic lineup this week of guests and I hope that you mark your calendars to watch iron sharpens iron every single day

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In fact, I hope you normally do that But this week especially tomorrow we have

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Justin Brierley Joining us. He is the host of the unbelievable radio broadcast in the

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United Kingdom He's going to be discussing atheism on Wednesday, April 11th

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We have Conrad M. Bayway pastor of Kibwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa joining us

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He's going to be discussing foundations for the flock on Thursday the 12th of April we have dr.

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Jim Renahan joining us He is president of IRBS Theological Seminary in Mansfield, Texas.

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He's going to be discussing ministerial training and on Friday The 13th of April and there is no reason that we particularly

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Chose Friday the 13th to interview this guest. It just happened to be a day that was open on the calendar

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Jack D. Kinnear who is a professor at Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania He's going to be discussing

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Eastern Orthodoxy But today we have back for part two of our discussion on the baptism of disciples alone

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Fred Malone and Just to let you know something about Fred in case you didn't hear him last

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Friday when we began this discussion on The baptism of disciples alone a covenantal argument for credo baptism versus pedo baptism

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Fred is the pastor of First Baptist Church of Clinton, Louisiana and he is a professor of pastoral theology at IRBS Theological Seminary and Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Begin part two of our discussion on the baptism of the disciples alone

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Fred Malone Chris Good to hear you.

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Great. And if anybody would like to join us on the air, our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

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Chris a are n ze n a gmail .com. Please give us your first name Your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter

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Let's say you disagree with your own pastor on this issue or something like that. You don't want to draw attention to yourself

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I can understand that but if it's not a personal and private question Please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA well Fred before we go into our audience questions, which

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Began to pile up last Friday. We didn't have time to take any of them though except for one

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And so we have those questions lined up and some new ones coming in But before we do that if you could just give us a summary of The most powerful arguments you believe are in the scripture that would promote or defend or teach

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Credo baptism or otherwise known as the baptism of disciples alone As opposed to pedo baptism or infant baptism

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Well, the first thing I think would be in the Old Testament prophecy Of the

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New Covenant in Jeremiah 31 31 through 34 the

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Covenant that God would establish This new covenant is not like the Sinai Covenant Which they broke?

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But rather the New Covenant is the covenant in which God will put his law

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Into the mind of the covenant member and write it upon their heart

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That they would know the Lord from the least of them to the greatest of them and That they would all have the forgiveness of sins and this new covenant which

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Jesus mentioned by name at the Lord's Supper instituting its its very existence historically is used in Hebrews chapter chapters 8 through 10 to explain the superiority of Christianity and Christian worship to the

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Old Testament temple and priesthoods So I believe the New Covenant is an effectual covenant when it is established just as the other covenants of Scripture name

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The members of those covenants when it's established. So does the New Covenant namely those who are regenerate and the same thing applies to Ezekiel 36 verses 25 through and 26 which

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Speak of a new heart that God gives us and puts his spirit in them to cause them to walk in God's Statutes.

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So that's the first major argument. The second one would be Just the historical institution of baptism in the

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New Covenant Scriptures Namely in the Gospels where John and Jesus baptized only repentant disciples

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Even though our pedo -baptist brothers Separate Jesus baptism from Christian baptism.

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I cannot Because the Great Commission the Lord tells his disciples

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To baptize disciples and to teach them to do all that he commanded them which would be his doctrine of baptism so When we look at the rest of the

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New Testament, we see on the day of Pentecost that the 3 ,000 baptized Were those who received

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Peter's word and were baptized and so that was They repented they believed in Peter's message and were baptized so I think the

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New Testament clearly testifies that Those who were baptized in the

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New Testament were those who professed faith in the Lord Jesus Christ So that's where I think we ended up last

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Friday Amen, and could you say in agreement with me? that Reformed Baptists believe that Only the elect are in the covenant of Of Christ the

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New Covenant. Well, we of course do not know Who the elect are with infallibility, but we only will baptize and admit into membership

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Into the church those who at least give a credible profession of faith and repentance and if they prove to be false

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Confessors or professors or false believers we would later through the disciplinary process

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Eventually excommunicate them if they do not repent. So would that be fair where as opposed to that?

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You have many in the Pato Baptist Brotherhood, I mean, I can't broad brush because I've spoken to Pato Baptists who agree interestingly with a

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Baptist on who are members of the Covenant there are Pato Baptists that do not believe that a child is

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Entering into the Covenant by virtue of his baptism or her baptism, but I think the majority of our

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Presbyterian brethren believe That that they are knowingly

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Bringing into membership into the church those that they don't even know whether they're or not

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They are believers and they and they are actually in their theology believing that Unelect individuals who will one day be in hell are truly members of the

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Covenant Well, I couldn't say it better myself so I believe the new covenant is an effectual covenant in the heart of every member and Some of the language that I've read over the years

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Is can be confusing like you say and that there are differences between our

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Pato Baptist brothers for instance on whether the infant of professing believers is in the covenant in the new covenant or not and There there's even there's even consideration that they are in the covenant of grace

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Either by Physical attachment to the parents in an external way that they are to be they are in the covenant of grace as those to whom it is promised if they repent and believe and also those who are actually in the covenant of grace and some would say therefore one can be in the new covenant and and the covenant of grace and breakage and And that is that view among covenant theologians is issued into the problems we have today with the federal division the new perspective on Paul and So forth who are members of the new covenant of Jesus Christ, and I believe the scriptures clear on that the elect of God well, we have a question from Jennifer in Gardnerville, Nevada And basically you may be reiterating some of the things that you just said because her question actually involves the covenants, but Jennifer says hello.

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Dr. Malone Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists typically hold to covenant theology I am curious as to how they differ with each other in terms of their respective views of the

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Continuity of the covenants as it relates to the sacraments in other words

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Is there a significant difference in their respective theological views or is the difference primarily exegetical?

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Thank you, Jennifer in Gardnerville, Nevada That's a great question and the the truth is that both

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Reformed Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists hold to a Continuity between the covenants and a diversity between the covenants both of them do that the pedo -baptist and Reformed Baptists generally hold to a discontinuity in regard to the civil laws of the

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Mosaic Covenant as well as the ceremonial laws that they no longer are

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Have a part in application to the new covenant And of course if you're a theonomist you don't agree with that either, but that's the general idea so we do believe there's a a

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Discontinuity between the covenants that the new covenant is the clear revelation of the covenant of grace and Baptists would say that it is the historical

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Accomplishment of the promises of the covenant of grace that began in Genesis 3 15

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So we do believe in a continuity as well But the thing that is a difference from my perspective is the definition of a covenant

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I do believe that we have basically a difference between us on what exactly is a divine covenant with man

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And one of the problems is that in the continuity of the pedo -baptist position that there there tends to be a

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Confluence or an adopting of Elements of one covenant or another into the new covenant

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And this is something that Baptists believe We have to be more careful about exegetically and That is that a covenant is defined by revelation not by good and necessary consequence

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For instance the new covenant itself is very clear That those in the new covenant are those who have the law written on their heart they have the forgiveness of sins, and they all know the

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Lord and There's no reason even to teach each other to know the Lord Because everyone in the covenant knows him.

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They are they are born again. They know the Lord and so The effectualness of the new covenant is different from the concept of covenant that is used for instance in the

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Abrahamic covenant Where Abraham was in the covenant as were all his male descendants who were circumcised and Only male descendants were circumcised, but also the daughters and granddaughters were included in the

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Abrahamic covenant But you could be a member of the Abrahamic covenant and And under the

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Sinai covenant which was added to the Abrahamic covenant you could be

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You could break that covenant and you would be put out of the covenant but in the new covenant we have only that which is an effectual membership, so if you define a covenant of divine covenants of the

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Bible in terms of believers or members and their children by inference or by necessary consequence

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Then you inevitably bring the organic element of the Abrahamic covenant

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And the Sinai covenant its addition into the new covenant though. It is not so stated biblically in The prophetic or the fulfillment passages concerning the new covenant

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The truth is that the new covenant no longer has the organic relationship

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That began in the Old Testament covenants Because in for example in Galatians 3 we find that Jesus Christ is the final

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Consummated Abrahamic seed the one to whom the promises were made the promises of a kingdom the promises of all the nations

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Being brought into the blessing of God and the blessing of Abraham and and Christ is that seed

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But who then are the seed of Christ are they organic children of course not

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But they are only those who are of faith for you're all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus Galatians 3 26 says and Verse 29 says and if you belong to Christ then your

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Abraham's offspring heirs according to the promise so the organic principle of being

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Included in the Abrahamic blessing is only in your relationship to Christ Not to your believing parents

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Now that immediately brings up the issue. Are there any blessings of The children of believers under the new covenant and I would argue that yes their blessings are increased

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From the children of the old covenants the Abrahamic covenant and the Sinai covenant even the

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Davidic We have the revelation of things which the

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Old Testament prophets searched it says in first Peter one A search to see what would the fulfillment of them be in the

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Christ? Well, we have the cross We can tell our children.

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This is Jesus Christ. The only Savior the world has He is the one who atoned for our sins and those who repent if you repent and believe in him and you also will be saved just like the day of Pentecost the promise is to you and to your children and all who are far off as Many as the

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Lord our God shall call him said that is the elect through effectual calling. So We no longer have the organic

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Connection of a promise of salvation By being in the covenant as children we have the greater blessing of bringing the pure gospel to our children a

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Blessing which most of the children on the earth have never experienced and we have the prayers of believing parents crying out to God for the souls of their children and we have the established

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Church of Jesus where the children are exposed to the Word of God and prayer and the examples and witnesses of Saint after Saint We believe that God saves from among his the children of believers just as much as pedo -baptists believe that God saves from among the children of that the baptized children or infants of professing believers

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So there there are so there are a lot. There are a lot of errors out there that Are straw men concerning the

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Baptist position That have been fostered and I've had to deal with them in in my particular situation in a local church, so we all believe in diversity and and We all believe in continuity.

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The question is how do we state that? well, thank you so much

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Jennifer and Please give us your full mailing that address there in Gardner Ville, Nevada Because not only have you won a free copy of Fred Malone's book the baptism of disciples alone

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Compliments of our friends at Founders Press But you've also won a free New American Standard Bible since you are a first -time

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Questioner on iron sharpens iron radio And those will be shipped out to you as soon as possible by our good friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service cv bbs .com

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and we thank Todd and Patty Jennings for faithfully shipping out at no cost to iron sharpens iron radio or our listeners the free copies of books

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Bibles DVDs CDs and other things that our Our listeners win by virtue of submitting questions to our listeners

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For our guests and Thank you very much, Jennifer, and we hope to get your full mailing address soon we have

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Let's see here. We have CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York Who says

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I recall? Perhaps a year ago or more When you had as a guest on iron sharpens iron radio a reformed

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Baptist named Jeffrey Johnson Who wrote a book called the fatal flaw on the theology behind infant baptism?

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Jeffrey from what I can remember is a reformed Baptist a five -point

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Calvinist and yet He seems to have a different view of the covenants than many reformed

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Baptists do and of course all of Pato Baptists, he seems to have a wider gap between the covenants than most reformed people

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He believes that the covenant God had with Israel was a temporary and fleshly and earthy covenant

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Which one could? Be cast out of unlike the new covenant that was permanent because it was salvific

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How does your guest view Jeffrey Johnson's understanding of the covenants if he is familiar with him?

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Well, I have read Jeffrey's book some time ago Now I think

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I even gave a blurb recommending the book but also

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Perhaps mentioning I didn't agree with everything in the book the difference presented in the two confessions the

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Westminster confession and the London Baptist confession second London confession of the covenants and their relationship to each other seems to be that the

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Westminster describes The covenant of grace that is the salvific covenant of grace as being differently administered under the two testaments that is under the

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Old Testament and and the New Testament and That they are the same covenant of grace

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But simply the Old Testament or the Old Covenant administered it under a more legal framework where the

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New Testament or the New Covenant administers it under a more

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Gospel or evangelical Position that is in terms of the promises.

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I Do not accept that construction that the Covenant of Grace was administered under two different Administrations that way because it makes the

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Old Testament historical covenants the covenant of Noah Abraham the

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Subsidiary covenant of the Sinai covenant added to the Abrahamic covenant and even the

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Davidic covenant It it makes them all manifestations of the covenant of grace

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And this is where we get confused when we're reading some of the pedo -baptist works where they will

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Use the term the covenant when speaking of the Abrahamic covenant or of the

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Sinai covenant You're in the covenant or you're out of the covenant and That just have a different view of that or if they did in 1677 when

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I believe Nehemiah Cox Come penned the second London Confession and the chapter under the

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London Confession is Different from the Westminster Confession. The Westminster has six paragraphs explaining their deed but the second

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London Confession has only three paragraphs and the difference is that the

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Second London Confession begins with God's promise in Genesis 3 15

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That it is the promise of the covenant of grace operative at that time

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Based upon the future work of Christ and that each succeeding historical covenant

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In themselves are not the covenant of grace But rather they are covenants of the promise of the covenant of grace

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In Ephesians 2 12, it says that That Gentiles were not inheritors of the covenants of the promise the article

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D is there to emphasize the special promise of the coming of Christ and So the

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Old Testament covenants we see are covenants of the promise carrying on the promise of Genesis 3 15 all the way to completion in the revelation of Jesus Christ wherein the new covenant is the historical

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Establishment and institution of the covenant of grace. It is the covenant which accomplished the sacrifice

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About which grace was operative to salvation in all the Old Testament Saints Let me read to you just quickly here the third paragraph of the

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The paragraph in the Second London Confession This covenant is revealed in the gospel

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First of all, he's talking about the covenant of grace now The salvific covenant this covenant is revealed in the gospel first of all to Adam in the promise of salvation by the seed of the woman and afterwards by father's steps until the full discovery thereof was completed in the

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New Testament and It is founded in that eternal covenant transaction that was between the father and the son about the redemption of the elect and It is alone by the grace of this covenant

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That all the posterity of fallen Adam that ever were saved did obtain life and eminent and blessed immortality man being now utterly

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Incapable of acceptance with God upon these terms on which Adam stood in his state of innocence and the point that I'm making here is that if you if you look upon the

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Old Testament covenants as administrations of the covenant of grace in a more legal way versus the

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New Testament of the new covenant as being an administration of the covenant of grace in a more evangelical or spiritual

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Spirit -filled way there's a tendency to look upon the covenants of Abraham and Sinai and And even the

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Davidic covenant as being basically equivalent to the new covenant that the members of those

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Old Testament covenants being the members of the covenant and their children

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Therefore require the new covenant to have to be made up of those who are members of that covenant and their children and So the two administration's idea

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Flatlines in one sense the Old Testament covenants and the new covenant. That's more or less equal

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But what it's actually doing is importing Elements of the old covenant that were meant to serve the new covenant into the new covenant itself

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The organic element of the Old Testament covenant was finished When Jesus was born in Bethlehem when he became the incarnate son of God and Savior he is the seed the organic seed to which the covenant of Abraham was made that's what

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Galatians 3 is teaching and therefore now in the new covenant, we have the seed of Abraham who is

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Jesus Christ and his seed Become the children of Abraham through faith in him so The the the way the the

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Baptists reformed the Baptists look at the covenants is and their fulfillment is different and the definition of the covenant which

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I was talking about earlier must be determined by Scripture not by inference or Good and necessary consequence.

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It must be determined by revelation as every Old Testament covenant was and the revelation concerning the new covenant is effectual membership so that's the difference between the two groups and I'm not sure that I can't recall all the things that Jeffrey said in his book

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But this is what I just said to you is the reformed Baptist view that comes from our confession

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Well, thank you CJ in fact It was a lot longer than a year ago that Jeffrey D Johnson discussed the discussed the fatal flaw of the theology

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Behind infant baptism. He did it for two consecutive Mondays in October of 2010

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He Was on Monday October 11th and Monday, October 18th in 2010.

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He has been a guest several times much more recently but not on that subject and the the interviews that you are remembering are

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Unfortunately not yet posted on the iron triples iron radio Website our new website when the old website

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Was taken out of Commission the the recordings are stored.

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I know that a librarian from Reformed Theological Seminary has them all stored and We plan on eventually when somebody has the time to do it

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Posting them back up on the current iron chirping's iron way to radio website, but we just have not yet done that but you can purchase

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Jeffrey D. Johnson's book the fatal flaw of the theology behind infant baptism from solid -ground -books .com

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solid -ground -books .com they offer books that are seeking to teach the

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Covenant from a reformed Baptist perspective from differing views he does meaning

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Mike Adash of solid ground Christian books has Several different books on Covenant theology by Baptists that are not in a hundred percent agreement with one another

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But you can get that book and compare it with the others that you might have from solid -ground -books .com

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We're going to our first break right now if anybody would like to join us on the air and you'll have to get online because we have a number of people from Last Friday who we have to get their questions asked and answered

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But if you want to get in line Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

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Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Please give us your first name city and state and country of residence

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If you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, don't go away

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God willing. We'll be right back with Fred Malone One sure way all iron sharpens iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers

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So You can't go wrong with taking the advice of Charles Haddon Spurgeon. Anyway, we are back now with our discussion

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Our discussion with Fred Malone on The theme the baptism of disciples alone if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our

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Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and please give us your first name your city and state and Your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA Just to let our listeners know something about this book. This is a really

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40:50

Todd and Patty Jennings for being such faithful supporters of Iron Trip and Zion radio.

40:55

Yes, I was correctly retail price is $27 .95 and you'll be getting that for free if you submitted a question to her to our guest today

41:04

Fred Malone Going back to our listener questions we have

41:10

Chris from Runnels, Iowa Chris thanks for having Fred Malone on to discuss this topic today.

41:18

My question has to do with how we determine whether Someone indeed is a disciple or merely claims to be a disciple of Christ Especially in regards to children

41:29

Also, is it ever wise to have someone you think is truly born -again wait for baptism because of age or lack of ability or Function fully or ability to function fully as a church member.

41:42

Thank you. Wow, that's a great series of questions In fact, there are books written on that subject about children your

41:50

Charles profession of faith by Dennis Gunderson is one that immediately pops in the mind and You could get that from CV bbs .com

41:59

but if you could Fred if you could answer the question to the best of your ability or questions plural

42:04

I should say Well, that is a wonderful question that all of us should ask and think about Baptists believe in a professing church membership our goal is to see a church of the

42:21

New Covenant in which all are regenerates and so that is our goal, but we recognize in our confession chapter 26 of the church that The only way that we can receive members into the baptism and receive professors into the

42:44

Membership of the church and baptism and so forth is to recognize we cannot infallibly tell the heart of anyone

42:52

None of the disciples for over three years suspected Judas Iscariot of anything even though our

43:00

Lord knew all along and And so we accept a good confession of faith that their life is not as the

43:09

Confessions is not inverting the foundation of their confession. That is they're not living a profligate life but rather as we

43:21

Hear their profession of faith We already have spoken with them and we have interviewed with them

43:28

To learn about their life and the change that Christ has brought into their life and whether they understand the gospel and Therefore are eligible for baptism on profession of good profession of faith

43:44

They and so as far as adults are concerned We cannot infallibly tell but we endeavor to make sure that there is a good understanding of Jesus Christ That is certainly the minimum or any baptism some of those who profess faith as far as children are concerned

44:04

We do believe that God saves at any age We believe God saved

44:09

John the Baptist and Jeremiah in their mother's wombs And we believe God still does that We cannot tell from a child that is just born whether or not they have a good profession of faith

44:24

But as we as our children grow up their parents have an opportunity to teach them the gospel to bring them to hear the gospel at church to teach them the

44:37

Catechism and so forth and so we take each child on a case -by -case

44:44

Profession of faith Now what does that mean? well, it means as the writer of Hebrews says

44:53

Hold fast to your confession To the confession the good confession that you had and so we would have to hear from a child a good understanding of the work of the

45:07

Lord Jesus Christ and what repentance and faith means in their case and their trust in him alone for salvation and We would also look to the parents and say to them what

45:23

What do you see in your child as far as evidence of? a

45:28

Consistency with a good confession. Do you see any changes in their life? How do they treat their brothers and sisters so that we receive the confession?

45:40

That the behavior is Does not avert the foundation of that confession just like we do in adults

45:48

There may be times where the confession of a child or a young person is unclear where Jesus but they cannot explain

46:02

Jesus is the Son of God by the way Fred if you could if you could remember to keep your mouth near the mouthpiece again because You keep drifting away for some reason

46:11

Okay there, so I don't know what probably and I'm sorry brother, but nevertheless we we would

46:20

Try to hear from their confession of faith more than Jesus is Lord They need to understand.

46:27

He's the Son of God That's the gospel that he was born of the Virgin Mary suffered under Pontius Pilate and rose again on the third day and ascended on high and And so we would try to make sure that a child or young person understands those things and be able to express

46:46

Their testimony How Christ has saved them and what difference has made?

46:52

There's some who've come to me at times and said if my child can repeat the catechism answers to those questions of what it means to be a

47:01

Christian would you baptize them and My answer was no not just on their memorization of the catechism or scripture

47:11

That we have in the New Testament a clear Definition of what is a disciple of Christ?

47:19

The Lord said if you would be my disciple if you would come after me you must deny yourself take up the cross and follow me and And so there would need to be some understanding that this this child or young person has

47:34

Turned away from their sinful self -rule and is turning toward Jesus Christ to be the

47:41

Lord of their life and That they love him and want to keep his commandments in their life.

47:47

So We would take a good confession of a child that's very young But we may deny the confession of a young person who is is in the teen years or even an adult who does not have a good confession and that book that you mentioned by Dennis Gunderson is one that we use here and Give to our parents when they are trying to discern the spiritual condition of their children.

48:19

So that's a great book to give In fact, I have another book newer book

48:25

That would take a very similar if not identical position to Dennis Gunderson and you

48:32

Justin Peters has recently Written a book and published a book.

48:37

In fact, we interviewed Justin on this book not long ago Do not hinder them a biblical examination of childhood conversion and do not let that title fool you

48:50

Do not hinder them Sounds more like a pedo -baptist book or a book

48:56

Welcoming very very young children to the baptismal font, but that is not the position that Justin takes.

49:03

I'm not really sure why he He chose that for the title but the forward was written by John MacArthur and you can also hear his interview on iron sharpens iron radio on that issue by typing in Justin Peters in The archive of the past shows and podcasts

49:21

By going to iron sharpens iron radio calm and looking for that search engine and typing in Justin Peters And you'll see his interview.

49:28

Do not hinder them a biblical examination of childhood conversion and you could also go to Justin Peters org

49:35

Justin Peters org to order that book. It's a very good and the interview is very good as well

49:43

Thank You Chris In Reynolds, Iowa, and you have also won a free copy of Fred Malone's book the baptism of disciples alone compliments of founders press

49:54

So, please give us your full mailing address so that CV bbs .com can ship that out to you at no cost to you or to iron sharpens iron radio

50:04

Let's see here. We have another listener Who has a question

50:12

We have Andrew in Avon Lake, Ohio and every time Andrew writes in I am ushered back to my childhood because there is an

50:21

Avon Lake in Amityville Long Island where I was raised and I spent a lot of I spent a lot of time

50:27

Near Avon Lake, although it was far too polluted to ever go swimming in it We did go fishing there, but never ate anything that we caught but anyway

50:37

Uh We have Andrew in Avon Lake, Ohio who says please thank dr

50:42

Malone for all the great work he has done in the field of covenant theology his sermon series on God's covenants helped lead me out of dispensationalism over ten years ago

50:53

Brother Malone is on the faculties of Reform Baptist Seminary Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary and now

50:58

IRBS seminary I wonder if he would be willing to describe the similarities and differences in missions that these three overlapping institutions have

51:11

He said covenant RBS and what was the third seminary Reform Baptist Theological Seminary Okay, well the theology of Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary and RBS theological seminary is essentially the same in almost all points and I'm not as familiar with what is

51:41

Being taught or the confessional basis of the Reform Baptist Seminary So you're not on the faculty there unlike what our listeners said

51:53

Yes, I'm not on the faculty. Okay so I'm not sure that the confessions of the the three seminaries are exactly the same, but I do know that Covenant Seminary and RBS seminary the confessions are the same also the difference in mission

52:16

Is from the beginning Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary Was looking to attract on -campus students to come to Owensboro Kentucky Kentucky and To study there to be a part of a church to be mentored and so forth and that was many years ago

52:37

I've forgotten how many years 10 or 12 years ago that we first began that work, but we soon realized

52:46

That we would need to do more online work And especially reach those men who are perhaps working for a living and cannot

52:57

Leave their jobs to support their families in fact Fred Fred Could you pick up on Covenant Baptist Seminary when we return from a break?

53:05

We have to go to our midway break right now Yes, and if anybody else wants to get in line with a question our email address is

53:11

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com This is our longer than normal break

53:16

So, please be patient and please take this time to not only write down information provided by our advertisers so that you can patronize them

53:23

But also write more questions for Fred Malone. That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

53:30

gives your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA don't go away God willing.

53:36

We'll be right back after these messages with Fred Hi, I'm Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio here to tell you about an exciting offer from world magazine my trusted source for news from a

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CV BBS calm by mentioning Chris Arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio before we return to our discussion with Fred Malone We just have a couple of more announcements to make

01:03:48

The spirit of the age and the age of the spirit is the theme for the upcoming Philadelphia conference on reform theology being held at two locations

01:03:58

Neither of them being Philadelphia. The first is the first Christian Reform Church of Byron Center, Michigan The second is

01:04:06

Proclamation Presbyterian Church of Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania And that's where I am going to be attending

01:04:11

God willing with my two pastors John Miller and Simon O Manny we will all be going

01:04:19

God willing to the Proclamation Presbyterian Church in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania for that event the the first event the first location for the

01:04:29

Philadelphia conference on reform theology Is held April 13th through the 15th coming up right around the corner

01:04:36

And as I said, that's first Christian Reform Church of Byron Center, Michigan And the second one that I mentioned that I'm going to God willing is

01:04:44

April 27th through the 29th That's Proclamation Presbyterian Church Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania the speakers at these events include

01:04:52

Daniel Aiken Richard Gaffin Daniel Hyde Conrad M Bayway a man who I who I believe is the most powerful preacher alive on the planet

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Earth Richard Phillips Jonathan master David Murray and Scott Oliphant If you would like to register for either or both of these events go to Alliance net org

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Spirit of the age and age of the spirit they call it the Philadelphia conference on reform theology

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Because it is named in tribute to the late. Dr. James Montgomery Boyce who held these conferences at the 10th

01:05:28

Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania for many years and Since he went home to be with the

01:05:33

Lord it is being held in different locations, but named Philadelphia conference in honor of him

01:05:38

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01:09:30

Fred Malone We are discussing the baptism of disciples alone and our email address again is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:09:37

Before the break Fred as you probably remember we were in the middle of a description of Covenant Baptist Theological seminary in Owensboro, Kentucky, and if you could pick up where you left off on that okay,

01:09:50

I Guess I was bringing comparison between Owensboro or Covenant seminary and the new

01:09:56

RBS right exactly Covenant seminary Developed early on the concept of online instruction even though one could move to Owensboro and take a full course on in place

01:10:14

Institute we decided to move more toward a internet based instruction trying to reach those

01:10:23

Those men who were perhaps in in work and could not leave their job for the sake of their families or pastors or students pastors particularly who are serving in the local church and perhaps did not have the

01:10:41

Opportunity to take some of the courses or a seminary course for themselves and then just for pastors to Bone up on things to catch up With the theology that may not have had instruction for in seminary.

01:10:58

So it's more of an internet online Seminary as the as the goal or the mission

01:11:08

I should say of that seminary Sam Walton The president and Dean of Owens of Covenant Baptist seminary.

01:11:17

He's wrote the commentary on the 1689 second London Confession and he is

01:11:24

In very close friendship with Jim Renahan or dr. James Renahan Who is the president and dean of the

01:11:33

IRBs Theological Seminary in fact? Sam is on Sam is on the faculty of both schools.

01:11:39

At least he's an adjunct at the IRBs. That's right Well, we share several at several professors and teachers

01:11:47

Richard Barcellos has talked much for the Covenant Baptist seminary. He'll be teaching some at the

01:11:54

IRBs seminary I'm on both faculties and so that tells you the Unity of thought and doctrine that we hold now the

01:12:03

IRBs seminary has been in process for many many years as well and holds to the concept of of an on -site seminary and that it is an advantage to have a person who moves to the location and has

01:12:21

Opportunities to take the classes their own side and to interact more closely with the faculty and and and therefore to benefit from that as well as Sometimes a greater opportunity to do some preaching

01:12:39

With churches that are associated with that seminary, but nevertheless Both have the goal of preparing men to be pastors that is preparing men to Preach the whole counsel of God a

01:12:54

Christ centered message Christ in all the scriptures both seminaries hold to the

01:13:01

Reformed concept of the law and the gospel theology, which we believe is key to having a well -rounded pastoral ministry to be able to deal with different people of different kinds and backgrounds and spiritual conditions and And we also both have a great emphasis on the local church that the local church is the place where Jesus Christ is head and therefore the local church must be at the center of The Christians walk or instruction and fellowship and sacraments or ordinances and Church discipline if necessary to encourage us to be faithful to the

01:13:45

Lord Jesus Christ. So the very some very similar Theology between the two seminaries, but just different Missions, I guess you would say covenant seminary reaching out on the internet more and RBS more a local

01:14:02

On -site seminary now both of them also have interacted with different reformed groups around the world

01:14:11

Teaching courses dr. Renahan and dr. Walden and some of the faculty including myself have taught

01:14:19

Seminary level courses modular type courses at different places around the world

01:14:26

New Zealand both groups have Taught courses there to the

01:14:31

Reformed Baptist in the New Zealand area I've talked courses in the

01:14:37

Philippines under Brian Ellis in the past even talked a course or two and China and so there's an interaction between the faculty as well as the seminaries and trying to serve

01:14:53

Reformed Baptist and prepare pastors throughout the world and so There is a sharing of course credit between the two seminaries as well

01:15:05

I think the agreement is somewhere in the area of 25 to 30 hours

01:15:11

That will transfer between them. So that's that's the comparison of those two seminaries

01:15:18

And as I said, I'm not familiar at this time with what is happening at the at Reformed Baptist Seminary, and by the way,

01:15:27

I mentioned it earlier But Jim Renahan is going to be our guest God willing this Thursday on Iron Sherpins Iron Radio to discuss the training of men in the ministry and we'll give you updates on these specific themes under that umbrella as soon as possible and I Rez this is a reminder also that my dear friend.

01:15:49

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries a Number of years ago, I can't remember how long ago but he and Jim Renahan debated two liberals

01:15:57

I believe they were perhaps even agnostics John Dominic Crossan from the

01:16:03

Jesus seminar and Marcus Borg, you know, and I and I haven't seen that debate yet So that's a reminder for me to watch that debate on the

01:16:11

Internet Well, thank you. Oh, there's one more question. That was a very good question from our listener

01:16:18

That's Andrew and Avon Lake, Ohio I wonder if dr. Malone would be gracious to give his thoughts on the 1689 federalism movement within our circles well,

01:16:31

I Do hold to federal theology when we when we consider the covenant theology of the

01:16:39

Bible We do find that before the foundation of the world There was

01:16:44

I believe a covenant of redemption or a council of peace

01:16:49

Whatever you wish to call it between the Father Son and Holy Spirit to To create the world bring forth out of the decrees of God to create the world to create

01:17:03

To permit the fall and to bring the promise of a Redeemer to come so The historical covenants that come out of the covenant of redemption

01:17:15

Would be the covenants that are in Adam as head and Christ as he did and Under Adam would be the covenant of works wherein he represented all of his posterity

01:17:29

And therefore as a result in Adam all died However in Christ all are made alive in Genesis 315

01:17:39

God gave the promise to Satan That a seed of the woman would come and destroy him and he would bruise the heel of that seed, but he would the seed would crush him on the head and we believe that that is the

01:17:55

Institution of the effective covenant of grace In terms of its its work of grace in history with Jesus Christ as the head

01:18:06

So I believe that there are two great covenants in history Those of Adam the one of Adam and the one in Christ and in fact

01:18:15

All through the covenants of the promise in the Old Testament both covenants were operative and that is somewhat debated by some but All men are condemned in the violation of the covenant in Adam the covenant of works so it was operative in terms of condemnation and is to this present day as Well the covenant of grace in Christ's head was operative from the promise in Genesis 315 to this present day so that all the covenants of the

01:18:50

Old Testament Had the covenant of condemnation the covenant of works

01:18:56

Condemnation and the promise of the covenant of grace operative in each of them So that you cannot call

01:19:05

Them individually a covenant of works or a covenant of grace

01:19:11

The the covenant of Sinai Which some have called a covenant of works had grace preached in it

01:19:22

It was not a covenant of works for salvation Nor was it a covenant of grace

01:19:28

Which elements we can borrow and place into the new covenant of Jesus? but it was a covenant for the purpose of bringing forth the seed of the woman to Bethlehem and So in in the

01:19:43

Old Testament covenants we have this promise of grace and the promise of condemnation preached to all men and calling them to believe in the

01:19:57

Messiah to come so the Federalism of The covenant of redemption in the

01:20:08

Trinity and the historical covenants of Adam and Christ as those representatives

01:20:16

For whom they represented they were the heads of covenants or whom they represented

01:20:23

Romans chapter 5 is very clear that in Adam condemnation was brought through all his posterity and death and that in Christ through one act of righteousness

01:20:36

He justified the many and So in that sense,

01:20:42

I do hold to the federal theology as it is taught today Well, thank you brother and please give us your full mailing address in Avon Lake Ohio because of the fact that you have also won a free copy of the baptism of disciples alone

01:21:02

Compliments of our friends at Founders Press. It will be shipped out to you free of charge compliments of our friends at CV BBS comm so please

01:21:10

Make sure we get your full mailing address and we thank you for joining us once again with a great question we have

01:21:19

Josh from Des Moines, Iowa and He says in regards to baptism and the

01:21:27

Sabbath Since most who reject Pato baptism also reject the

01:21:33

Sabbath besides 1689 Reform Baptists this seems

01:21:39

Inconsistent to me. How do Reform Baptists deal with this since both circumcision and Sabbath?

01:21:47

predate the Mosaic Covenant Seems that the same logic for rejecting the

01:21:52

Sabbath is used for rejecting including our children in the Covenant Sabbath Lord's Day and circumcision baptism.

01:22:00

Thank you brothers for your time I guess what he's saying is that the

01:22:11

Baptists who reject the Sabbath are more consistent than Reform Baptists because Reform Baptists typically

01:22:20

Will believe that Sunday is they set is the Sabbath, but we we reject

01:22:26

Simultaneously the the concept of Pato baptism, yeah,

01:22:31

I understand his statement, I think but The thing is that the that Reform Baptists in their concept of the

01:22:41

Sabbath Have and I believe an exegetical foundation that requires us to continue holding forth a

01:22:53

Sabbath under the new covenant And let me explain that first of all

01:22:59

Despite objections. We believe that the Sabbath is a creation ordinance that God rested on the seventh day after creation and he himself looked upon his work and called it very good and He sanctified that is he set apart that day as a

01:23:22

Sabbath And then from that point we find even after the fall that that the weeks of the patriarchal period were established in seven -day weeks in In copy of the seven days of creation and we believe that a

01:23:41

Sabbath was held and was understood we believe Adam and Eve understood that and And Adam taught that to his children and grandchildren and great -grandchildren for hundreds and hundreds of years

01:23:52

Including the promise of the Messiah to come when the

01:24:00

Sinai Covenant we see that the Sabbath was a part of the ten words

01:24:08

The ten words is called the covenant in Deuteronomy. That is the

01:24:13

Sinai covenant and The ten words were placed in the

01:24:19

Ark of the Covenant. They were put there as the the righteousness of God the testimony of what is righteousness and the need of Redemption and atonement for the violation of those ten words.

01:24:34

They were separated by God from the other covenant the other covenant laws in the book of the

01:24:43

Covenant and And so the argument today that there's no difference in the

01:24:49

Old Testament or the New Testament between the various laws of Israel the moral laws of the ten words the

01:24:56

Ceremonial laws of worship and the civil laws of government is a false Argument God himself set them apart differently and And they were put into the

01:25:07

Ark Which is the Ark of the Covenant that is the ten words

01:25:13

So all through the Old Testament the ten words had a special place in the mind of the

01:25:19

Israelite and of the and of Moses and of the prophets and so forth when we come to the

01:25:25

New Covenant prophecy we find that And this is this is an area that I believe there is so there needs to be real exegesis done again by many and that is that the

01:25:39

Prophecy in Jeremiah 31 is that under the New Covenant which will not be like the

01:25:46

Covenant? Which is real broke that is the Sinai Covenant this Covenant will not be like that cup

01:25:53

But rather God will write his laws on their heart and put them in their minds

01:25:59

I don't believe there's any question by Jeremiah or those who heard him that it was talking about the ten words

01:26:06

That God wrote on tablets of stone, but there are only laws of the Old Covenant that God himself wrote exegetically, we have to do something with the

01:26:16

Ten Commandments in the New Covenant prophecy and For that reason I believe that when we see that the that Jesus shed his blood to establish the

01:26:26

New Covenant We must continue to hold to the ten words as the moral law of God That condemns all men, that's what

01:26:36

Romans 2 teaches and also is the standard of Christian living

01:26:45

By Christians who are born again and live under grace Who are called to love

01:26:50

God and love their neighbor and love one another that that this love is defined by the law

01:26:58

The moral law of God and that's the third use of the law that that the reformers came

01:27:06

Believed in not just to expose and condemn sin or to restrain sin in the government and society but also to be the standard of Christian obedience that is of how we should live and Luther had a third use of the law though some people

01:27:23

Denied that but he did and They looked upon the Ten Commandments as a reflection of God's moral nature

01:27:30

The Sabbath being a creation ordinance for all men instituted at creation by God and that it is referred that way in Exodus 20 as Continued for Israel and now is continued for us under the stipulations of the

01:27:48

New Covenant Some have tried to redefine the law written on the heart in the

01:27:55

New Covenant passage as being now we have the Spirit to guide us or Now we will have new laws that Jesus gives us under the

01:28:05

New Covenant But that is an exegetical error We have in the context a clear statement of what laws

01:28:15

God put in the mind Put in the Ark of the Covenant What laws he wrote on tablets of stone and now as it stipulates through?

01:28:27

Deuteronomy God Will write those very laws upon the heart of the

01:28:33

Christian now people say well Christians don't have an inward sense of the

01:28:40

Sabbath or the Ten Commandments or the Lord's Day in and of themselves. They do it because they see it in the

01:28:46

New Testament alone, and I disagree with that Because the work of the law

01:28:53

Is is is even there in the Gentiles hearts according to Romans 2 giving them a conscience of condemnation before God and in the

01:29:06

New Testament Everyone that is born again knows that they are to worship the

01:29:11

Lord and set aside a time for worship And that is what happened not only under Jesus in the

01:29:18

Gospels but the Apostles in the book of Acts and and All through the epistles that the first day of the week became the day of worship

01:29:27

It doesn't say the first hour it says on the first day of the week. We gathered together and so I believe the

01:29:36

Lord's Day as John the Apostle called it is a Christian Sabbath day of rest

01:29:42

It does not have the stipulations of the ceremonial laws or the civil laws of the

01:29:49

Sinai Covenant, but it has the same essence of the

01:29:55

Fourth Commandment To set aside one day and seven to rest and do no work and to work hard Days and That this is to be a time of physical rest and worship to the

01:30:10

Lord We hold to a Christian Sabbath, but not according to all the stipulations of the ceremonial and civil law

01:30:18

It is a day of rest a day of worship a day of fellowship with God's people

01:30:24

It is a day to do good works as Jesus explained in Matthew 12 and Mark 2.

01:30:31

It's lawful to do good. It's lawful to heal on the Sabbath day. And so we hold to that I Have not been able to See in in normal Hermeneutics how we exegete an

01:30:49

Old Testament text the freedom to eject the ten words from the new covenant prophecy and fulfillment and I believe that an argument that is often overlooked by those who have rejected the

01:31:03

Continuation of a Sabbath day for Christians and we do need to remember that there were more

01:31:10

Sabbath days Than just the seventh day of the week in the

01:31:15

Jewish calendar. The Day of Atonement was the Sabbath day The Day of Pentecost was a

01:31:22

Sabbath rest It was not a full Sabbath but it was a

01:31:27

Sabbath where there was no laborious work and that is the day the church was formed and So I believe there needs to be more study and and I believe the

01:31:37

Lord's Day either some who observed the Lord's Day So faithfully and and use it as I have described.

01:31:45

I'm so thankful for that But We need to follow exegesis,

01:31:53

I believe in determining When we worship and And using a full day of worship in the apostolic fathers.

01:32:04

I believe it's in the letters And we got accidentally disconnected

01:32:11

I hope Fred Malone calls us back but We are going to our final break right now

01:32:17

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

01:32:24

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01:32:29

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01:35:33

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio We are now back with our guest for the final 24 minutes or so of our

01:35:40

Program on the baptism of disciples alone Fred you got somehow knocked off the air and You were right in the middle of a sentence if you want to conclude your thought before we go on to our next listener question

01:35:53

Hello, Fred Fred are you there? well,

01:35:59

I'm not sure what happened to Fred I thought that he had joined us and We are gonna go to one more station break and Hopefully Fred Malone will be back with us once again

01:36:10

I am not sure what happened, but we will go to a next station break and if you guys want to squeeze in a question if you think you have

01:36:19

If we have time to fill you fit you in because we're running out of time Send it to Chris Arns in a gmail .com

01:36:26

Chris Arns in a gmail .com. Hopefully we'll be back with Fred Malone Hello, Fred Fred Malone.

01:36:34

Yes. Yes. Oh, well, we didn't need to get our last extra station break because we finally got Fred back on the air

01:36:42

I do not know what happened, but I kept calling back and finally got yeah Well, we

01:36:47

I'm not sure what happened either because we did hang up after you get caught off. But anyway, you were in mid -sentence

01:36:53

Answering Josh from Des Moines, Iowa's question where he believes that reformed Baptists who are

01:36:59

Sabbatarian While simultaneously rejecting infant baptism are being inconsistent.

01:37:04

So you were like about at the tail end of that answer, I believe Well, yes, and and the main answer is that we are in the new covenant and the new

01:37:21

Fred you are really breaking up really bad Fred.

01:37:26

Are you there? Fred are you there? I can't I can hardly hear you

01:37:31

Fred Okay Nevertheless the

01:37:41

Jeremiah passage has to be executed in context and that it is quoted several times in the

01:37:49

New Testament as fulfilled in Jesus Christ and we believe that therefore the members of the new covenant are regenerate and have the forgiveness of sin and know

01:38:03

And Nature of God Which he created in Adam and Eve when we say that they were made in his image they reflected his moral nature and so you can't just redefine the

01:38:25

Grave of Jeremiah 31 31 through 34 And and make the law written upon the heart and put into the mind

01:38:36

In in some way in the new covenant as Only being the work of the

01:38:42

Spirit in our hearts or only being the commandments of Jesus It is an exegetical fact that we're talking about the ten words

01:38:51

And that was not refuted in the New Testament. Jesus taught that the ten words were the moral law of God in his

01:39:00

Sermon on the Mount as well as That the two great Commandments to love

01:39:06

God with all your heart soul mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself are fulfilled in How the commandments teach that you shall have no other

01:39:15

God before you That you shall not worship in images worship in spirit and truth and so forth and the same with the second table of the law when our

01:39:28

Lord in the Sermon of the Mount Began with the commandment you shall not commit murder and then the commandment you shall not commit adultery and Then you shall love your neighbor as yourself and so We find in the

01:39:43

New Testament the corroboration That the law of the new covenant is the ten words and that's what

01:39:50

Paul was saying in Romans 13 8 through 10 in Romans 7 where he speaks of his being convicted by the law in terms of thou shalt not covet and Also in Romans 2 where we find that the law written upon the heart the work of the law in even unbelievers

01:40:10

Is speaking of the the moral law that the Jews themselves were to obey.

01:40:17

Are you there? Are you still there, brother? Oh, yeah, you're loud and clear now. Oh, okay. I'm sorry. You were so quiet.

01:40:22

I couldn't hear I Found that in New Testament and Old Testament scholarship that there is plenty of support and Especially in the reform faith that the ten words are the law written upon the heart

01:40:50

I Already I'm sorry you broke up again, but I think you're finished with that.

01:40:56

We need to move on anyway Josh in Des Moines, Iowa Thank you so much for your question, and you have won the final copy of the baptism of disciples alone

01:41:07

Please make sure we have your full mailing address in Des Moines, Iowa And we'll have that shipped out to you by CV bbs .com

01:41:14

at no cost to you or to us thank you very much for joining the program with a very in -depth and Complicated question we have

01:41:26

Mark in Rancho Santa Margarita, California Mark says thanks for your ministry.

01:41:32

I really enjoy the program and have learned a lot. Here is my question to pastor Malone How do you respond to the objection that the

01:41:39

Baptist reading of Hebrews 8? represents an over -realized

01:41:45

Eschatology it would seem to indicate that teaching would also be obsolete

01:41:51

Yet we still have teachers within the church That question comes up often and the text itself explains that It doesn't say that Christians in the

01:42:03

New Covenant Do not have teachers or do not need to be taught

01:42:08

The text says that there will be no need to teach anyone in the New Covenant to know the

01:42:16

Lord That is a salvific Statement we all know the

01:42:22

Lord under the New Covenant, but we do not know him perfectly do we? We have to be taught by God's Word and the teachers that God has given to us

01:42:32

And so there are some who have taken that statement And Simply means and it says that there will be no man no need for each man

01:42:46

To teach his neighbor know the Lord for they shall all know me from the least to the greatest of them

01:42:51

Which simply means a regenerate New Covenant well mark, although we cannot send you a free copy of dr

01:43:00

Malone's book since you are I believe a first -time questioner You have one a free

01:43:05

New American Standard Bible so make sure we have your full mailing address So we can have that NASB shipped out to you by CV bbs .com

01:43:14

we have Joe in Slovenia, I'm so appreciative of this topic because there are so many related doctrines and practices

01:43:23

Dependent upon getting baptism, right? My question is what Bible text do pedo -baptists misunderstand in tying the

01:43:31

Old Testament Covenant sign of circumcision to the New Testament covenant sign of baptism.

01:43:37

I've never understood their hermeneutic Please also explain how the credo Baptist hermeneutic refutes pedo -baptism grace and peace to you peace to you both

01:43:47

Yeah, it almost seems that pedo -baptists switch hermeneutics when they're dealing with When they're dealing with the issue of baptism, but if you could respond

01:43:58

Well that I believe that is basically an inconsistency with our brothers in pedo -baptism and We all hold to the hermeneutic that the

01:44:10

New Testament is the final interpreter of the Old Testament You can't interpret the

01:44:16

New Testament without the background of the Old Testament but when it comes to Explaining what the

01:44:23

Old Testament meant we look to the New Testament as the final clearest revelation of God to man in the face of Christ and his apostles and so one of the great errors,

01:44:37

I believe is that in the case of pedo -baptism our brothers look to the

01:44:44

Old Testament to be the final determiner of the doctrine of baptism in the

01:44:50

New Testament instead of looking to the New Testament to determine the character and the and the subjects of baptism and and so by doing that You basically return to the

01:45:06

Old Testament, and you find interesting comments I believe it was BB Warfield who said that we do not find the warrant for infant baptism in the

01:45:16

New Testament, but in the Old Testament and Yet at the same time he and Charles Hodge would say that the

01:45:24

New Testament is the final commentary on the Old Testament and so when we look at the doctrine of circumcision and baptism, which is one of the arguments that That really persuaded me originally to become a

01:45:39

Presbyterian I had never heard of that before and I began

01:45:45

After living and serving as a happy Presbyterian for several years I began to look again at that connection between circumcision and baptism in the pedo -baptist argument basically

01:46:01

Baptism is the fulfillment of circumcision therefore as infants were circumcised so Infants can be baptized

01:46:11

But that is not the direct Doctrine our fulfillment of circumcision in the

01:46:17

New Testament The fulfillment of circumcision as a type

01:46:23

Is in the Lord Jesus Christ who was circumcised that is the flesh was cut off on the cross but also that Circumcision is not of the flesh but of the spirit

01:46:38

In Philippians 3 Paul says clearly that we are the true circumcision who worship in the spirit

01:46:46

Romans chapter 2 at the the last part of that chapter Says that the true

01:46:52

Jew is the one who has been circumcised in the heart so Baptists believe that the fulfillment of the type of circumcision in the

01:47:02

Old Testament the antitype is not baptism, but Regeneration and as a result those who are regenerate receive the sign of Baptism so there's an indirect connection between circumcision and baptism in that circumcision was prospective of the

01:47:27

Pouring out of the spirit and the regeneration of the heart That is so clearly explained in the

01:47:35

New Testament and and that baptism is a sign of the faith of the believer who has been regenerated and and so That is an error where you let the

01:47:51

Old Testament Form I mean type or shadow

01:47:58

Overshadow the revelation of the New Testament in its meaning we are the true circumcision and Colossians 2 says very clearly that we don't need physical circumcision

01:48:10

Because we have been circumcised verse 9 and following we have been circumcised by the circumcision of Christ That is that Christ has circumcised our hearts under the new birth and that as a result we were baptized and Raised up through faith in the working of God and so faith is at work in that baptism.

01:48:36

That is also expressed in Colossians 2 9 through 12 so The main hermeneutical error,

01:48:46

I believe is just consistency and we're all inconsistent in various ways. We know that Anyone that says they're not inconsistent is it's blind to their own weaknesses but in something as important as a

01:49:01

Sacrament of the New Covenant and of the New Covenant Church. It has to be instituted by revelation it has to be prescribed by Holy Scripture and infant baptism is not so instituted by revelation or prescribed by Holy Scripture and and part of the reason of that is turning again back to the

01:49:25

Old Testament to be the final interpreter of The New Testament and that's what dispensation lets do in terms of prophecy and fulfillment

01:49:35

They turn to the Old Testament to determine how a prophecy should be fulfilled in the

01:49:41

New Testament even if the New Testament gives a different in a different explanation of the

01:49:48

Fulfillment of that prophecy. Just one example is in Ezekiel 37 where The temple will be rebuilt and God will be with his people and so forth and in Dispensational eschatology, they're still waiting for a physical temple to be rebuilt in the

01:50:06

Millennium when Jesus returns But that very passage is quoted in 2nd

01:50:11

Corinthians 6 as fulfilled in the church That the church is the temple of God that was prophesied there

01:50:18

And and therefore you have to let the New Testament revelation determine how the old is fulfilled in it instead of vice -versa

01:50:27

And I believe that's the major issue Well, we have time for a couple more questions

01:50:34

I think we have We have Christian in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York who says

01:50:43

That isn't it very Inconsistent of all Pato Baptists whether they are using the argument of Circumcision as being replaced with baptism or if they are using the argument of household baptisms when the vast of majority of Pato Baptists do not baptize unbelieving adults including servants and Adults who are family members who reject the gospel

01:51:09

Wouldn't they have to baptize Everyone under the roof of a believer who is the head of the household in order to be consistent with their arguments of both circumcision and of household baptisms or Oiko baptisms

01:51:24

Well, I believe so and that actually Was a debate among Presbyterians I believe in the

01:51:32

South as to whether their Servants or slaves should be baptized as members of the household or not

01:51:39

First Corinthians 7 comes into play here where it is dealing with the question of marriage the marriage of a believer and It's particularly

01:51:53

Important to remember that Paul is speaking of a present distress That is in that case of a present distress it might be good to remain unmarried as he is but nevertheless he goes on to explain that a

01:52:09

Christian who is married to an unbeliever should stay in that marriage

01:52:15

Because of the believer being considered as holy So the unbelieving spouse is

01:52:23

Considered holy and for that reason your children are not unclean, but they are holy also

01:52:31

And that passage has been used quite often to justify the holiness of the children of believers in that since they're holy they have the right to Baptism as a member of the

01:52:46

Covenant The problem with that is that it's the whole passage is speaking of the legitimacy of a

01:52:54

Christian married to an unbeliever and and so if you if you push that text as you're talking about that the household

01:53:06

Orcas formula that all in the householder could be baptized of a believer then the it would be right to baptize the unbelieving spouse of a believer and I think you mentioned yesterday

01:53:20

There's at least one person you've known off that believes that Greg Strawbridge is the only one that I know of that verbally and publicly has said that he will baptize an unbelieving spouse

01:53:31

Right, and I think that anybody that looks at the New Testament In in the

01:53:37

Gospels or the epistles or the book of Acts would see that that was never done

01:53:42

There's no evidence of that the household baptisms are not as clear that Infants in the household or slaves in the household were

01:53:53

Baptized by virtue of having a head of the household who was

01:53:58

Christian Again we can't use historical narrative. That's unclear to establish a doctrine and That's part of the hermeneutic structure and priorities in hermeneutics as well.

01:54:12

So nevertheless If you're going to push

01:54:18

Covenant theology by bringing in the elements of the

01:54:23

Abrahamic covenant whereby he said he also circumcised his slaves Into the new covenant by implication or by good and necessary consequence, then you would you would be free to Baptize a spouse or a servant in the household even if they were unbelievers

01:54:42

But obviously the New Testament does not teach that and does not illustrate or example that rather the

01:54:50

That the propounding or the the prominent I should say

01:54:56

Words and examples of the New Testament is to baptize those who have professed faith in the

01:55:03

Lord Jesus Christ who have repented of sin and So that drives covenant theology to the absurd

01:55:11

We have BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania who asks

01:55:18

Isn't it amazingly absurd that That that Pato Baptists use

01:55:27

Circumcision as the root of infant baptism and yet when the

01:55:33

Apostle Paul is rebuking the Judaizers for forcing Circumcision upon the

01:55:40

Gentile believers Paul never mentions that baptism is a replacement for circumcision

01:55:47

I Think it is it is a loud silence But I would I would even caution here that we must be careful not to use the argument of silence to either establish

01:56:01

Professors back professing baptism or disciples baptism

01:56:06

I should say or infant baptism You can't it is not the same to Practice Something that is not prescribed in Holy Scripture As it is to prohibit something that is not propounded in Holy Scripture That's the very principle of the sacraments and it's in both of our confessions is that they they must be instituted by revelation not by influence not by the imaginations of men and again, that is is one of the weaknesses that I came to believe those in the argument of pedo baptism that needs to be

01:56:54

Corrected and there's much inconsistency For instance in the previous person that you mentioned on adult or the baptism of unbelieving spouses

01:57:03

Greg Strawbridge Yeah, Greg Strawbridge. Yes, and I can count him a friend a longtime old friend, but Nevertheless that argument is it's not held by most pedo back.

01:57:17

That's right The reason is because the New Testament in its preponderance neither commands or examples such a practice and So you can't use?

01:57:29

implication after implication Or historical narratives to establish the doctrine of a sacrament and that's

01:57:36

I keep coming back to that That it must be by the institution of revelation and since we all follow that the

01:57:44

New is in the old concealed and the old is in the new revealed

01:57:50

That that the New Testament explains the Old Testament And the

01:57:55

New Testament establishes the new covenant that was prophesied in the Old Testament We must look to New Testament priority in terms of interpreting all the scripture

01:58:07

The Old and New Testament are equally inspired of God they equally convey the mind of God but in the priority of hermeneutics

01:58:16

We look to the new covenant revelation to tell us what the new covenant is and now we're out of time

01:58:23

I'm sorry, brother And I want I want our listeners to know that the website for the

01:58:29

First Baptist Church of Clinton Louisiana is FBC Clinton dot

01:58:34

I'm sorry FBC Clinton LA dot -com FBC Clinton LA dot -com the

01:58:40

Institute for Reform Baptist Studies Theological Seminary website is irbs seminary org irbs seminary org and the website for the

01:58:52

Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary in Owensboro, Kentucky is CBT CBT seminary org

01:59:00

CBT seminary org Fred if you could hold on the line I want to say a proper goodbye to you off the air

01:59:06

I want to thank I want to thank everybody who listened I apologize to all of you who could not have your questions asked and answered on the air because we ran out of time including

01:59:14

Ted from Tuscaloosa, Alabama and I hope that you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater