April 9, 2018 Show with Fred Malone on “The Baptism of Disciples Alone: A Covenantal Argument for Credobaptism Versus Paedobaptism” (Part 2)

The New Covenant as the Basis for Credobaptism

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Afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth listening via live streaming at iron Sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Monday on this 9th day of April 2018 we have a Fantastic lineup this week of guests and I hope that you mark your calendars to watch iron sharpens iron every single day.

In fact, I hope you normally do that. But this week, especially tomorrow we have Justin Brierley Joining us. He is the host of the unbelievable radio broadcast in the United Kingdom. He's going to be discussing atheism on Wednesday, April 11th.

We have Conrad M Bayway pastor of Kibwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia Africa joining us. He's going to be discussing foundations for the flock on Thursday the 12th of April we have dr. Jim Renahan joining us.

He is president of IR BS theological seminary in Mansfield, Texas. He's going to be discussing ministerial training and on Friday The 13th of April and there is no reason that we particularly Chose Friday the 13th to interview this guest.

It just happened to be a day that was open on the calendar. Jack D. Kinnear who is a professor at Reform Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. He's going to be discussing Eastern Orthodoxy.

Fred Malone on the Covenantal Argument for Credobaptism

But today we have back for part two of our discussion on the baptism of disciples alone. Fred Malone and Just to let you know something about Fred in case you didn't hear him last Friday when we began this discussion on The baptism of disciples alone a covenantal argument for credo baptism versus pedo baptism.

Fred is the pastor of First Baptist Church of Clinton, Louisiana and he is a professor of pastoral theology at IR BS theological seminary and Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Begin part two of our discussion on the baptism of the disciples alone.

Fred Malone. Great and if anybody would like to join us on the air, our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com. Chris a r n z e n gmail .com. Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Let's say you disagree with your own pastor on this issue or something like that. You don't want to draw attention to yourself.

I can understand that but if it's not a personal and private question Please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Well Fred before we go into our audience questions, which Began to pile up last Friday.

We didn't have time to take any of them though except for one. And so we have those questions lined up and some new ones coming in. But before we do that if you could just give us a summary of The most powerful arguments you believe are in the scripture that would promote or defend or teach Credo baptism or otherwise known as the baptism of disciples alone.

As opposed to pedo baptism or infant baptism first thing.

I think would be in the Old Testament that God would establish This new covenant is not like the Sinai covenant Which they broke. The new covenant is a covenant in which God will put his law into the mind of The covenant member and write it upon their heart that they would know the Lord from the least of them to the greatest of them and that they would all have the forgiveness of sins and this new covenant which Jesus Mentioned by name at the Lord's Supper instituting its its very existence historically is used in Hebrews chapter chapters 8 through 10 to explain the superiority of Christianity and Christian worship to the Old Testament temple and priesthoods.

So I believe the new covenant is an effectual covenant when it is established just as the other covenants of Scripture name The members of those covenants when it's established. So does the new covenant?

Namely those who are regenerate and the same thing applies to Ezekiel 36 and 27 a new heart that God gives us and puts his spirit in them to cause them to walk in God's statute. So that's the first major argument and the second one would be Just the historical institution of baptism in the new covenant Namely in the Gospels where John and Jesus baptized only repentant disciples even though our pedo-baptist brothers Separate Jesus baptism from Christian baptism.

I cannot mission the Lord tells his disciples To baptize disciples and to teach them to do all that he commanded them which would be His doctrine of baptism rest of the New Testament. We see on the day of Pentecost that the 3 ,000 baptized were those who read and were baptized and so that was They repented they believed in Peter's message and were baptized.

So I think the New Testament Those who were baptized in the New Testament faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, I think we ended up last Friday.

Amen, and could you say in agreement with me? that reformed Baptists believe that only the elect are in the covenant of Of Christ the new covenant. Well, we of course do not know Who the elect are with infallibility, but we only will baptize and admit into membership Into the church those who at least give a credible profession of faith and repentance and if they prove to be false confessors or professors or false believers we would later through the disciplinary process Eventually excommunicate them if they do not repent.

So would that be fair where as opposed to that? You have many in the Pato Baptist Brotherhood, I mean, I can't broad brush because I've spoken to Pato Baptists who agree interestingly with a Baptist on who are members of the Covenant.

There are Pato Baptists that do not believe that a child is Entering into the Covenant by virtue of his baptism or her baptism, but I think the majority of our Presbyterian brethren believe That that they are knowingly Bringing into membership into the church those that they don't even know whether they're or not They are believers and they and they are actually in their theology believing that Unelect individuals who will one day be in hell are truly members of the Covenant.

How well put believe the New Covenant is an effectual covenant in the heart of every member. Is can be confusing like you say and that there are differences between our Pato Baptist brothers for instance on whether the infant of professing believers is in the Covenant in the New Covenant or not.

And there there's even There's even consideration that they are in the Covenant of Grace. Either by it's in an external way that they are to be they are in the Covenant of Grace as those to whom it is promised if they repent and believe and also those who are actually in the Covenant of Grace.

And some would say therefore one can be in the New Covenant and and the Covenant of Grace and break it.

And.

That is that view among Covenant theologians is issued into the problems we have today with the federal division the new perspective on Paul and So forth who are members of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ?

And I believe the scripture the elect of God. Well, we have a question.

Covenant Theology and the Continuity of the Covenants

From Jennifer in Gardnerville, Nevada. And basically you may be reiterating some of the things that you just said because her question actually involves the covenants, but Jennifer says hello. Dr. Malone.

Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists typically hold to covenant theology. I am curious as to how they differ with each other in terms of their respective views of the continuity of the covenants as it relates to the sacraments.

In other words. Is there a significant difference in their respective theological views or is the difference primarily exegetical? Thank you, Jennifer in Gardnerville, Nevada.

Continuity between the covenants a confluence or an adopting of one covenant or another into the New Covenant. And this is something that Baptists believe We have to be more careful about Exegetically and that is that a covenant is defined by revelation not by Good and necessary Consequence.

The New Covenant is said that those in the New Covenant are those who have the law written on their heart they have the forgiveness of sins and they all know the Lord and There's no reason even to teach each other to know the Lord.

Because everyone in the Covenant knows him is there they are born again. They know the Lord and so.

The.

Effectualness of the New Covenant is different from the concept of covenant that is used for instance in the Abrahamic Covenant where Abraham was in the Covenant as were all his male descendants who were circumcised and And only male descendants were circumcised but also The daughters and granddaughters were included in the Abrahamic Covenant.

But you could be a member of the Abrahamic Covenant and And under the Sinai Covenant which was added to the Abrahamic Covenant you could be. You could break that covenant and you would be put out. In the New Covenant we have only that which is an effectual membership, so if you define a covenant of divine covenants of the Bible in terms of believers or members and their children by inference or by necessary consequence Then you inevitably bring the organic element of the Abrahamic Covenant.

And the Sinai Covenant its addition into the New Covenant though It is not so stated biblically the prophetic or the fulfillment passages concerning the New Covenant. Truth is that the New Covenant no longer has the organic relationship That began in the Old Testament.

For example in Galatians 3 we find that Jesus Christ is the final Consummated Abrahamic seed the one to whom the promises were made the promises of a kingdom the promises of all the nations being brought into the blessing of God and the blessing of Abraham and Christ is that seed.

Organic children of course not. Only those who are sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3 26 says.

And.

Verse 29 says and if you belong to Christ then your Abraham's offspring heirs according to the promise. So the organic principle of being Included in the Abrahamic blessing is only in your relationship not to your believing parents.

Now that immediately brings up the issue. Are there any blessings the children of believers under the New Covenant. And I would argue that yes, their blessings are increased. The Abrahamic Covenant and the Sinai Covenant even the Davidic Cup.

We have the revelation of first Peter.

One.

Search to see what would the fulfillment of them be in the Christ? Well, we have the cross. We can tell our children. This is Jesus Christ. The only Savior the world has. He is the one who atoned for our sins and those who repent.

If you repent and believe in him and you also will be saved. Just like the day of Pentecost the promises to you and to your children and all who are far off as Many as the Lord our God shall call him said that is the elect through effectual calling.

So We no longer have the organic Connection of a promise of salvation. By being in the Covenant as children we have the greater blessing of bringing over and on the earth have never experienced and we have the prayers of believing parents crying out to God for the souls of their children.

And we have the established Church of Jesus where the children are exposed to the Word of God and prayer and the Examples and witnesses of saint after saint. We believe that God's among children of believers just as much as Pedobaptists believe that God saves from among the children of that the baptized children or infants turning the Baptist position.

That have been fostered and I've had to deal with them.

In.

In my Particular situation in a local church. We all believe in diversity and and we all believe in continuity,. Well, thank you so much Jennifer and.

Please give us your full mailing that address there in Gardner Ville Nevada. Because not only have you won a free copy of Fred Malone's book the baptism of disciples alone Compliments of our friends at founders press.

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For our guests.

And.

Thank you very much, Jennifer, and we hope to get your full mailing address soon. We have. Let's see here. We have CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York who says I recall. Perhaps a year ago or more.

When you had as a guest on iron sharpens iron radio a reformed Baptist named Jeffrey Johnson. Who wrote a book called the fatal flaw on the theology behind infant baptism? Jeffrey from what I can remember is a reformed Baptist a five-point Calvinist and yet He seems to have a different view of the covenants than many reformed Baptists do and of course all of pedo-baptists he seems to have a wider gap between the covenants than most reformed people.

He believes that the covenant God had with Israel was a temporary and fleshly and earthy covenant. Which one could be cast out of unlike the New Covenant that was permanent because it was salvific. How does your guest?

View Jeffrey Johnson's understanding of the covenants if he is familiar with him.

I think I even gave a blur mentioning. I didn't agree with everything in the book. The difference presented in the two confessions the Westminster Confession and the London Baptist Confession second London Confession of the covenants and their relationship to each other.

Seems to be that the Westminster that is the salvific covenant of grace as being differently administered under the two Testaments that is under the Old Testament and and the New Testament and that They are the same covenant of grace.

But simply the Old Testament or the Old Covenant administered it under a more legal framework where the New Testament or the New Covenant administers it under a more Glory than Jellicle mission that is in terms of the prop.

I do not accept that the was administered under two different Administrations that way because it makes the covenant of Noah Abraham Subsidiary covenant of the Sinai Covenant added to the Abrahamic Covenant and even the Davidic Covenant It it makes them all manifestations of the covenant of grace and This is where we get confused when we're reading some of the pedo-baptist works where they will Use the term when speaking of the Abrahamic Covenant or of the Sinai Covenant.

You're in the Covenant or you're out of the Covenant and Baptists have a different view of that or if they did in 1677 when I believe Nehemiah Cox Penned the second London Confession and under the London Confession is Different from the Westminster Confession.

The Westminster has six paragraphs explaining their view but the second London Confession has only three paragraphs and the difference is that.

The.

Second London Confession begins with God's promise in Genesis 315 That it is the promise of the covenant of grace Operative at that based upon the future work of Christ and that each succeeding historical covenant in themselves are not the covenant of grace, but rather they are cohesions to twist that.

That Gentiles workers are the covenants of the promise. The article D is there to emphasize the coming of Christ and. So the Old Testament covenants we see are covenants of the promise carrying on the promise of Genesis 315 all the way to completion in the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Wherein the new covenant is the establishment and institution of the Covenant of Grace. It is the covenant which accomplished the sacrifice. About which grace was operative to salvation in all the Old Testament Saints.

Let me read to you. Just quickly here.

The.

Second London Confession this covenant is revealed in the gospel. First of all, he's talking about the covenant of grace now The salvific covenant this covenant is revealed in the gospel first of all to Adam in the promise of salvation by the seed of the woman and Afterwards by father's steps until the full discovery thereof was completed in the New Testament and It is founded in that eternal covenant transaction that was between the father and the son about the redemption of the elect and It is alone by the grace of this cup that all the posterity of fallen Adam that ever were saved did obtain life and Blessed immortality man being now utterly incapable of acceptance with God upon these terms on which Adam stood in his state of innocence.

And The point that I'm making here is that if you if you look upon the Old Testament covenants legal way versus the New Testament of the new covenant As being an administration of the covenant of grace in a more evangelical or in Sinai and And even the Davidic Covenant the New Covenant Testament Covenant and their children therefore require the new covenant to have to be made up of those who are members of that covenant and their children and so the two-administrations.

Idea.

Flatlines in one sense the Old Testament covenants and the New Covenant. That's more or less equal is important the New Covenant Into the New Covenant. It's organic element of the Old Testament covenant was finished.

When Jesus was became the incarnate. He is the seed the organic seed Galatians 3 and therefore now in the new car who is Jesus Christ and his Become the children of Abraham through faith and the covenants is different.

Which I was talking about earlier must be determined by well.

Thank you. CJ. In fact, it was a lot longer than a year ago that Jeffrey D Johnson discussed the discussed the fatal flaw of The theology behind infant baptism. He did it for two consecutive Mondays in October of 2010.

He Was on Monday October 11th and Monday October 18th in 2010. He has been a guest several times much more recently but not on that subject and the the interviews that you are remembering are Unfortunately, not yet posted on the iron sharpens iron radio Website our new website when the old website was taken out of Commission the the recordings are stored.

I know that a librarian from Reformed Theological Seminary has them all stored and We plan on eventually when somebody has the time to do it Posting them back up on the current iron sharpens iron radio radio website, but we just have not yet done that but you can purchase Jeffrey D. Johnson's book the fatal flaw of the theology behind infant baptism from solid-ground-books .com.

Solid-ground-books .com they offer books that are seeking to teach the Covenant from a reformed Baptist perspective from differing views he does meaning Mike Adash of solid grant Christian books has Several different books on Covenant theology by Baptists that are not in a hundred percent agreement with one another.

But you can get that book and compare it with the others that you might have from solid-ground-books .com. We're going to our first break right now if anybody would like to join us on the air and you'll have to get in line because we have a number of people from Last Friday who we have to get their questions asked and answered.

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He said that these 22 volumes were a mountain of sound theology. So You can't go wrong with taking the advice of Charles Haddon Spurgeon. Anyway, we are back now with our discussion Our discussion with Fred Malone on The theme the baptism of disciples alone if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

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I think it's $27 and change is what the retail price is and Those of you who have submitted questions Are going to be getting a copy for free by the the graciousness of founders press and also the graciousness of our friends at CV bbs .com Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service and We thank Todd and Patty Jennings for being such faithful supporters of Iron Trip and Zion radio.

Yes, I was correctly retail price is $27 .95 and you'll be getting that for free if you submitted a question to her to our guest today Fred Malone. Going back to our listener questions we have Chris from Runnels, Iowa.

Discernment in Credobaptism and the Role of Children

Chris thanks for having Fred Malone on to discuss this topic today. My question has to do with how we determine whether Someone indeed is a disciple or merely claims to be a disciple of Christ. Especially in regards to children.

Also, is it ever wise to have someone you think is truly born-again wait for baptism because of age or lack of ability or Function fully or ability to function fully as a church member. Thank you. Wow, that's a great series of questions In fact, there are books written on that subject about children your child's profession of faith by Dennis Gunderson is one that immediately pops in the mind and You could get that from CV bbs .com but if you could Fred if you could answer the question to the best of your ability or questions plural I should say.

Disciples even though our Lord knew all along and. And so we accept a good confession of faith. That their life is not as the confession says not Inverting the foundation of their confession. That is they're not living a profligate life but rather as we Hear their profession of faith.

We already have spoken with them and we have interviewed with them to learn about their life and the change that Christ has brought into their life and whether they understand the gospel and Therefore are eligible for baptism on profession.

So as far as adults are concerned We cannot infallibly tell but we endeavor to make sure that there is a good understanding of Jesus Christ. That is certainly the minimum or any baptism some of those who profess faith.

We do believe that God saves at any age. We believe God saved John the Baptist and Jeremiah in their mother's wombs. And we believe God still does that. We cannot tell from a child that is just born whether or not they have a good profession of faith.

But as we their parents have an opportunity to teach them the gospel. Bring them to hear the gospel at church teach them the catechism and so forth. And so we take each child on a case and So we would have to hear of the Lord Jesus Christ and faith me and their trust in him alone for salvation.

And say to them what? What do you see in your child good confession, do you see any changes in their life? How do they treat the foundation of that? There may be times where the confession of a child or a young person, but they Explain that Jesus is the Son of God.

By the way, Fred if you could if you could remember to keep your mouth near the mouthpiece again. Because you keep drifting away for some reason.

I'm sorry, brother from their confession of faith more than Jesus is Lord They need to understand. He's the Son of God That's the gospel that he was born of the Virgin Mary suffered under Pontius Pilate and rose again on the third day and ascended on high and.

And so we would try to make sure that a child or young person understands those things and be able to express Their testimony them and there's some who've come to me at times and said if my child can repeat the catechism Answers to those questions of what it means to be a Christian Would you baptize.

And my answer was no not just on their memorization of the catechism or scrap? We have would be my disciple if you would come after me. You must deny yourself take up the cross and follow me and and so there would need to be some understanding that this this child or young person has Turned away from their simple self-rule and is turning towards Jesus Christ to be the Lord of their life and If they love him and want to keep his commandments in their life so We would take in of a child that's very young.

But we may deny the confession of a young person Who you know the teen years or even an adult who does not have a good confession and That book that you mentioned by Dennis Gunderson is one that we use here.

That's when they are trying to discern The spiritual condition of their children. In fact, I have another book newer book.

That would take a very similar if not identical position to Dennis Gunderson and you. Justin Peters has recently Written a book and published a book. In fact, we interviewed Justin on this book not long ago.

Do not hinder them a biblical examination of childhood conversion and do not let that title fool you. Do not hinder them. Sounds more like a pedo-baptist book or book. Welcoming very very young children to the baptismal font, but that is not the position that Justin takes.

I'm not really sure why he He chose that for the title. But the forward was written by John MacArthur and you can also hear his interview on iron sharpens iron radio on that issue by typing in Justin Peters in the archive of the past shows and podcasts.

By going to iron sharpens iron radio comm and and looking for that search engine and typing in Justin Peters. And you'll see his interview do not hinder them a biblical examination of childhood conversion.

And you could also go to Justin Peters org Justin Peters org to order that book. It's a very good and the interview is very good as well. Thank You Chris. In Reynolds, Iowa, and you have also won a free copy of Fred Malone's book the baptism of disciples alone.

Compliments of founders press. So, please give us your full mailing address so that CV bbs .com can ship that out to you at no cost to you or to iron sharpens iron radio. Let's see here. We have another listener.

Who has a question? We have Andrew in Avon Lake, Ohio and every time Andrew writes in I am ushered back to my childhood because there is an Avon Lake in Amityville Long Island where I was raised and I spent a lot of.

I spent a lot of time Near Avon Lake, although it was far too polluted to ever go swimming in it. We did go fishing there, but never ate anything that we caught. But anyway.

Uh.

We have Andrew in Avon Lake, Ohio who says please thank dr Malone for all the great work he has done in the field of covenant theology. His sermon series on God's covenants helped lead me out of dispensationalism over ten years ago.

Brother Malone is on the faculties of Reform Baptist Seminary Covenant Baptist Theological Seminary and now IRBS seminary. I wonder if he would be willing to describe the similarities and differences in missions that these three overlapping institutions have.

Reform Baptist Theological Seminary.

Seminary seminary is essentially the same in almost all points and I'm not as familiar with what is Being taught or the confessional basis of the Reform Baptist Seminary.

So you're not on the faculty there. Unlike what our listeners said. Yes, I'm not on the faculty, okay.