1 Hour with An Unbeliever: Insights from Francis Shaeffer

Welcome back to another episode of Revealed Apologetics. I'm your host, Eli Ayala, and today we're going to be diving into an important topic, pretty much inspired by Francis Schaeffer. Those who are familiar with apologetics, worldviews, even presuppositionalism, even though I would not categorize Francis Schaeffer as a presuppositionalist, at least in terms of being a one-to-one correspondent comparison with Van Til or something like that.

But he's under the umbrella, so to speak, in the literature with respect to a presuppositionalist of some flavor. But definitely I have my disagreements with Schaeffer, but I think he's helpful in so many other areas too.

So I highly recommend folks check out Francis Schaeffer if you haven't. And so you just type in his name, his books will pop up all over the place. He's a very well-known Christian thinker. And so, yeah, so that's what we're going to be doing today.

It's a surprise live stream. Again, just given the nature of my life and schedule, sometimes I have to just go live when I have a small pocket of time. So that's what I'm going to be doing today. I did that yesterday and had a fun time with the folks listening in there as well.

So super happy to be here this morning. Very, very different going live in the morning as opposed to doing my show when I typically do it, which is like nine o 'clock in the evening. I'm kind of revved up on coffee, but ironically I'm revved up on coffee here in the morning as well.

So there you go. So this episode, I want it to be very useful for people who have a passion for sharing the faith. And so I get this question all the time, what is the best way to share the faith with an unbeliever?

When we are placed in a context in which we have a little bit of time, it's very difficult to know how to share your faith with someone when time is so limited or the context is not amenable to kind of a fruitful in-depth conversation about the meaning of life, the existence of God and the gospel and things like that.

But what happens if you have like an hour, you have a good solid hour? Here is where I want to kind of share, I think a good way to talk about the faith with an unbeliever if you had that much time and you wanted to engage in kind of a meaningful conversation and so Francis Schaeffer, I think is super helpful here.

I do apologize from the get-go. I don't remember where this quotation came from, but I do know that it is attributed to Francis Schaeffer. And so Schaeffer famously said that if he had an hour to speak with someone about the faith, and this is interesting, he would spend the first 55 minutes explaining how man is created in the image of God and then he would spend the last five minutes on the gospel, okay?

He would spend the first 55 minutes explaining how man is created in the image of God and the last five minutes on the gospel. And this approach, I think really highlights the importance of understanding our problem as man before diving into the work of Christ and how he saved sinners and things like this.

Now, again, this is not a recipe that you always have to follow, but I think there's great value in taking this approach. Now, of course, you're talking to different people, different levels of background and knowledge and things like that.

So you're gonna wanna take those things into consideration. But I think what Schaeffer, I think is good here on, he's actually highlighting really the one-two punch of gospel presentation, and that is the law and the gospel, okay?

And as those who are well-versed and familiarized with evangelism and things like this, we often say something along the lines that before we offer someone the good news, we need to offer them the bad news so that they could actually appreciate the importance of the good news.

And so I think that's very important. Now, again, I think what is crucial in taking this approach from Schaeffer, kind of spending a large majority of our time talking about who we are as image bearers of God, I think is a very good way to set the context for presenting the work of Jesus.

As I've heard many preachers say, and I'm in agreement with this, that you do not understand the greatness of the gospel unless it is set with the backdrop of the blackness of sin, death, and our problem.

And so the darkened background of man's sinfulness and spiritual deadness allows the light of the gospel to shine all the more. For when we proclaim Jesus as the Savior, we need to ask the question, well, is it Savior from what?

What does he save us from? And so we need to be able to understand kind of this one-two punch of like law, where we stand before God, the value of man, these sorts of things, man's fall, and all these things that lead up to really appreciating the nature of the work of Christ on behalf of sinners.

And so keeping that in mind, I do think that a useful way kind of piggybacking off of Francis Schaeffer's thoughts here, spending the first 55 minutes of the hour talking about man as image of God, and then spending the last five minutes talking about the work of Christ, I wanna start, I think, in a very important place, which I would highly recommend people starting with when trying to engage in these sorts of discussions.

And I don't promise to go an hour here. I don't know how long I'll be, but I think an important thing in explaining to someone, taking this approach from Schaeffer, explaining to someone the importance of what it means to be a human being, what it means to be an image bearer of God, you can't do better than starting right there at the beginning in the book of Genesis.

Now, the book of Genesis is so foundational. The book of Genesis is literally the book of beginnings. And it tells us the beginnings of many things, the beginnings of the creation of the universe, the beginnings of the creation of man, the beginning of civilization, the beginning of the establishment of the covenant between God and Abraham, and Abraham as the father of the Jewish people.

Genesis is the book of beginnings. And so as the book of beginnings, okay, the book of Genesis is foundational to everything else that we understand. I mean, even just take the whole corpus of the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible.

I mean, everything in scripture, okay, the themes in scripture are housed in the Pentateuch somewhere, even promises of the coming Messiah, which we see manifest in such a powerful way over 2000 years ago, okay?

When you read, for example, John 1 .1, in the beginning was the word, the word was with God and the word was God. In John 1 .14, the word became flesh. You have to understand that that's a culmination of what has been pointed to from the very beginning.

Okay, and we'll touch on that a little bit here in today's live stream, but I think this is so vitally important to make that connection, that everything you see in the New Testament with the unfolding of the ministry of Jesus and the proclamation of the gospel that was put forth by the apostles and book of Acts and these sorts of things, one of the major points of dispute and discussion and debate between, say, for example, the apostle Paul and the Jewish leadership was the demonstration that all that Jesus came to do was a fulfillment of that which came before, that which was promised before and was promised indeed right there in the book of Genesis and all were reminded of those promises all throughout the rest of the Old Testament scripture.

So Genesis is super important in kind of establishing what God has set up so as to create a foundation, understanding everything else, especially with respect to the work of Christ and of course the nature and purpose of the gospel and things like this.

So first, you have an hour with an unbeliever. Let's take Schaeffer's approach just in principle here. We're not gonna follow kind of too strictly, but we take Schaeffer's approach. Let's start with emphasizing the importance of man creating the image of God.

And that brings us to Genesis chapter one, verses 26 and 27, okay? And this is where we first encounter this idea, right? The word of God says, pardon, that then God said, let us make man in our image after our likeness and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.

So God created man in his own image. In the image of God he created him, male and female he created them. And this is super important segment of the opening chapter of the book of Genesis because in these verses, we see the unique creation of humanity.

Now, unlike the rest of creation, humanity is made in the image of God, made in his likeness. And this foundational truth, I think establishes some very key aspects of what it means to be a human being, an image bearer of God.

For example, we have a relational element here, right? As God is relational within his triunity, right? So human beings are designed to have relationship with God and with each other, okay? So our relationality is a reflection of God's relationality within the persons of the trinity.

Of course, we see elements of that all throughout the Old Testament. I think that right there, let us, the one God speak in the plural, let us make man in our image, I think is important to that end, understanding the relational aspect of God.

I know there are other ways that people kind of explain that, but just to put that out there, you also have a rational aspect in God creating man and man having rational elements to his person, right?

We reflect God's rationality and creativity, right? We're capable of reason, we're capable of moral decision-making. That is an aspect of what we call the Imago Dei, the image of God. And interestingly enough, we have this element of dominion.

Human beings are given stewardship over creation, right? We reflect God's sovereignty and care at kind of a lower level. God is the ultimate king and sovereign, but to a certain degree, God gives us rule over that which he has made.

Very, very important. And in a sense, one of the ways that man walks into his role as image bearers of God is that we participate in that which God has given us dominion over. We are to be good stewards of what God has given us rule over.

Very important. Genesis 2 .7, I think is an important aspect here where we have God breathing into man the breath of life. And so Genesis 2 .7 reads, then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.

And the man became a living creature. It's interesting, this verse kind of focuses on what I see as the personal and intimate act of God giving life to humanity, differentiating him from the animals. And so the breath of life really, I think, signifies a spiritual dimension of man, kind of indicating this idea that humans are not merely physical beings, but where there is a spiritual element to man, right?

We are not merely our bodies, but rather there is a spiritual aspect. We have a soul. Now I'm not gonna get into the theological debates between the nature of the soul. You have the trichotomy, dichotomy view in terms of which man from the dichotomous perspective, in terms of which man is composed of two things, body and soul.

And in the dichotomy view, soul and spirit are equated with each other. Soul and spirit are just two different words for the same thing. And then you have the trichotomous view in terms of which man is composed of three things, body, soul, and spirit.

And there's a distinction between soul and spirit on that view. I'm not going to go into the details of that other than just to define it. But I think the Bible clearly teaches that there is an immaterial aspect to man.

Even in terms of our rational life and our thinking, I'm of the position that when we think, thinking does not occur in the physical brain, rather thinking occurs in the immaterial mind. And because the soul and the body are so closely linked together, when thinking occurs in the mind, there is physical corresponding activity in the physical brain, but I do not equate the two as there are important distinctions that again, not gonna get too much into, but just to give you this idea that there is indeed from a biblical perspective, a spiritual aspect to human beings, okay?

And of course we have the creation of man. And then of course, an important thing to talk about when you're sharing the faith that someone is the fall of man, okay? Man is created as the pinnacle of God's creation, right?

We are the Imago Dei, which differentiates us from the animals, from the lower beasts and creatures. But again, we have the pinnacle of God's creation experience the fall. And so to understand man's problem, okay?

We gotta consider Genesis three, where sin enters the picture. And so in Genesis chapter three, verse six through seven, it reads, so when the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was a delight to the eyes and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate.

And she also gave some to her husband who was with her and he ate. Then the eyes of both were opened and they knew that they were naked and they sowed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths.

Now it's interesting. We always make the joke that, you know, it's all because of the women, right? You know, Eve had to take the stinking fruit, you know. Well, look what it says there. This is why a man is culpable too.

Look, it says,.

So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was a delight to the eyes and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. And she also gave some to her husband who was with her.

So he's just standing there, right? It's what men do, right? We just stand around and watch, right? But there you go, okay. Again, but all joking aside, okay. It was the taking of the fruit that sin entered the world and there's an interesting thing going on here, I think.

And I've highlighted this before in other videos is that, you know, the nature and the seriousness of the sin committed in the Garden of Eden is not simply a woman taking a fruit and the man partaking of the fruit as well that God forbade, that's part of it.

But I think it's very interesting that Adam and Eve in this situation knew the command of God. They knew that God said that you may eat of all the trees in the garden, but do not eat of the tree that's in the midst of the garden.

They knew that command. And then along comes the serpent who deceives Eve with his subtlety as referred to later in the New Testament. He deceives her with subtlety, okay. And what does Eve do? She has the word of God, do not eat from this tree.

She has the word of the serpent, eat from the tree, okay. God says, here are the consequences when you eat from the tree. The serpent says, no, no, these are the, this is what happens when you eat from the tree.

And when you eat from the tree, when you eat the fruit, your eyes will be open and you will be like God, okay. And so you have God's word and then you have the serpent's word and where lies the sinister nature of Eve's sin.

It's when she says to herself, we can read between the lines, I will decide for myself what is right. And acting autonomously, independent of God's commands and will, she reaches out, eats the fruit. And of course we all know what the result is, okay.

So this is very important. You kind of get into this small scripture here, Genesis three, six through seven, you really get not only the act of sin, but the nature of the sin itself. Once you think a little bit deeper into what's going on here.

Now the fall is important. It represents really a fundamental break in the relationship between God and humanity. And this act of disobedience brought about spiritual death and separation from God, which basically affected all of creation and every other human being born thereafter.

And of course we can talk about the idea that how can the sin of man impact all of his progeny? Again, this is wrapped up in the concept of federal headship in which the man represents his family, which is a category that is clear throughout scripture.

We're not gonna get into the details of that. But again, I think it's important when you're talking to the unbeliever to highlight the nature of sin, right? We talk about man as image of God. We talk about a man is the pinnacle of God's creation.

We talk about the fact that we've fallen with sin. There's consequences as a result of the sin. We have a fundamental break in our relationship with God.

Okay.

And then we highlight the impact of this act, right? In Romans 5, 12, okay. Paul summarizes the universal impact of the fall that we just read about.

Okay.

Romans 5, 12. Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin. And so death spread to all men because all sinned.

Okay.

That is the result of the sin entering the world. We all, right. We all experience death. For the wages of sin is death.

Okay.

Now, interestingly enough, Adam and Eve sinned, of course. Yes, but we all sin. And we're all guilty of breaking God's law. Think about, look at the logical sequence here in terms of what the Bible says, right?

For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. That's all encompassing. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And then elsewhere, we read the wages of sin is death. And so what logically follows from that?

Okay.

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death. It logically follows that all deserve death.

Why?

Because we've all sinned. We've all broken God's law. And this is part of building up the case as to why we need a savior. Just to give a heads up to Jonathan Myron, this is not prerecorded. This is live, my friend.

So, so there you go. It was, I was explaining at the beginning that I didn't plan to do this, but I kind of just come on live as I find the time. So yes, this is not prerecorded. This is live as you're listening in right now.

So, so there you go. All right. So highlighting the fall, we are able then to lay the groundwork for the need for redemption. And we can highlight this by going into what the scripture says with respect to God's intention and promises to redeem man that has fallen.

I mean, the first scripture that pops into my head is Genesis 3 .15. Even in the midst of judgment, God's grace shines, shines through in Genesis 3 .15, where we have the promise of redemption. This often known as the proto-evangelium.

Genesis 3 .15 reads, I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. And she shall bruise your head and you shall bruise his heel.

Okay?

We oftentimes theologians, we refer to this as the proto-evangelium, the first gospel promise. And this basically indicates that God had a plan for redemption through the offspring of the woman, right?

I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring, the offspring of the serpent and her offspring, the offspring of the woman. He, notice the singular there, he shall bruise your head.

Of course, all mankind are the seed of the woman in one sense, but in a very important sense, it's a reference to Christ here. He will bruise your head. As we know that Jesus Christ being the perfect, without sin, 1 Peter 2 .24, the perfect bearer of our sins, hence in his crucifixion and atonement, crushes the head of the serpent.

Okay?

And so we have this promise of redemption given to us right there in the book of Genesis.

Okay?

Now notice why, if we go right back to the beginning, not the beginning of the Bible, but the beginning of this video, we talked about the importance of, we talked about the interesting nature of Francis Schaeffer's perspective here, that if he had an hour, just one hour with an unbeliever, he would spend 55 minutes talking about man is the image of God, right?

Unraveling that in the last five minutes, talking about the work of Jesus. I think this is very important, building that case as to why Jesus is necessary for salvation. We need to understand man's problem.

Okay?

Now, we see also in the New Testament, we see the fulfillment of this promise that we read about in Genesis 3, 15.

Okay?

You know, John 1, 14, famous passage, everyone should know it, right? And the word became flesh, the word being a reference to Jesus Christ. In the beginning was the word, the word was with God, the word was God.

Talking about the deity of Christ there. And the word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we've seen his glory. Glory as of the only son from the father, full of grace and truth. And again, in Romans 5, 18 -19, we read, therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification in life for all men.

For as by the one man's disobedience, the many were made sinners. So by the one man's obedience, the many will be made righteous. Now, I want you to pay attention to this. Notice that these passages reveal how Jesus, the second Adam, rectifies the false consequences, offering redemption and restoring our broken relationship with God, okay?

This is important, right? We're building the case, okay? I got 50, I got an hour, 55 minutes. I wanna get into the detail of who a man is, what is man's problem, what is the solution, okay? And when we lay that groundwork, I think we're in a better position to allow the gospel of Jesus Christ to shine in our conversations, okay?

Now, it's essential to grasp, really, the gravity of the human condition, really, before sharing the gospel, okay? So without understanding the fall and its consequences, the need for a savior is not really apparent.

Humans are spiritually dead. We're separated from God. We're incapable of saving ourselves. This is why, okay, Jesus Christ is needed, all right? And there's nothing wrong with using standard scripture that typically we can use, and most average people have heard these verses before, but there's, I mean, John 3, 16 is a powerful verse, even though it's been used over, it's probably the most known recognizable Bible verse in all of scripture, but it is powerfully true, okay?

As it is the word of God, 2 Timothy 3, 16, all scripture is breathed out by God, and so let us never get tired of overusing, of using too much, quote-unquote, too much biblical truth.

They're true.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life, okay? So if we believe in Christ, we will have eternal life. If we place our trust in Christ and understanding that it is only by placing our trust in him that we can be saved, whereas Ephesians 2, 8 -9 says, for by grace you've been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing.

It is a gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. So important. Who is man as image bearer? Man is the pinnacle of God's creation. Man falls due to deception from the serpent, and there is a result and a consequence in which sin is passed on to all, the consequences of sin are passed on to all mankind.

We're born with a sin nature. We cannot please God in and of ourselves, and that is why we need Jesus, and the way we reach out for Jesus is by God's grace, right, gifting us and granting us faith. It is granted to us to believe, Philippians 1 -29, and salvation is acquired through faith, by grace, through faith, grace, unmerited, undeserved favor that God bestows upon us.

We do not deserve the gifts of God, but by grace we've been saved through faith. These are free gifts. It's not our own doing. It is a gift of God. Christ's work on the cross and his resurrection provide the only means for reconciliation with God, and by repenting and placing your faith in Jesus Christ, we receive forgiveness, we receive new life, we receive the promise of eternal life, okay?

All these things are promised to us, okay? And so understanding that we're created in God's image, recognizing the depth of our sin and the separation we have from God sets the stage really for appreciating the magnitude of Christ's redemptive work, and so this, I think, approach, taking the first 55 minutes or first, if you have a half hour, maybe, you know, the first 25 minutes talking about who we are as man and what Christ has done in light of man's fall, I think, is a very important way to get across, really, the truths of the gospel, okay?

Now, again, as a side note, I think it's important, a lot of people, you know, I think it's important for people to recognize the role of the book of Genesis in all of this. I mean, obviously, we take the whole counsel of God, right?

But it's so important that when we're preaching the gospel and we talk about man breaking God's law and we can quote the apostle Paul, you know, all of sin and fallen short of the glory of God, and we can take the Romans road, you know, scripture references and things like that, but I think it's so important that Christians really get a firm grasp on the significance of the book of Genesis in properly understanding man, especially with respect to a lot of our apologetic context today, okay?

Completely apart from defending the faith, okay? I mean, sorry, apart from proclaiming the faith and having conversations, you know, an hour with an unbeliever, this is what I would say, these are the directions I would go, just in terms of apologetics and defending the faith, the biblical view of not only God, the biblical view of Christ and the biblical view of the Trinity, the biblical view of this, that, or the other thing, the book of Genesis helps us understand the biblical view of man.

It helps us understand man's value before God, for man is valuable because we are created in the image of God. And I think it's important to share that truth with people who do not value themselves in a way that they should value themselves as image bearers of God.

You see, your self-perception impacts, you know, how you live your life, where you see man going, okay? Man's purpose. I think a lot of the content of our conversation with unbelievers, especially with people who have kind of this very pessimistic view of existence, like, you know, we're here by random chance, we're just the byproduct of a blind evolutionary process, these sorts of things.

I think it's important to highlight in our conversations with people the value of man, and not just the value of man intrinsically in and of himself, but I think the value that we have comes from God.

I think it's important to emphasize, hey, you are made in the image of God. You have value. You have purpose, right? And so I think these are kind of important themes that really are set for us there, right there in the book of Genesis.

A great tool for evangelism, and apologetics, of course, but a great tool for evangelism, and whether it's an hour, whether you're following Francis Schaeffer's guideline to 55 minutes of image of God, man's problem, these sorts of things in the last five minutes, let's talk about what Jesus did, whether it's an hour, whether it's a half hour, whatever, I think it's going to be vitally important to get a grasp on the book of Genesis and its foundational nature, okay?

And of course, the themes found in Genesis are going to be implicit and explicit everywhere else in scripture. So if you understand Genesis, you actually will have a pretty good grasp on some of the major themes that are, you know, touched upon all throughout scripture.

And of course, for Jesus himself also, he says in the beginning, he made them male and female, right? He created them. There's references in the New Testament to the book of Genesis as creating that foundation.

So they, the apostles, Jesus, they saw Genesis as foundational. So I think it's important in terms of apologetics and evangelism. Now, if I could take a shift away from evangelism directly, I know they're connected, defending the faith and proclaiming the faith, they're obviously related, but just in terms of moving away from Schaeffer now, and just kind of just speaking to you guys generally, I think it's important to get a firm grasp on Genesis for the purpose of apologetics, because as we know, apologetics, defending the faith, requires us to defend the fundamental truths of the Christian faith.

And many of those fundamental truths, the seed of which are present in Genesis, okay? You attack that foundation that, you know, that's going to impact everything else you say, okay? So again, now I do recognize that there is a vast difference in interpretation and these sorts of things, but I don't want to get into that discussion.

But just know this, know the details of Genesis, know the nuanced positions, and I encourage people, I know that when people kind of debate what Genesis means and these sorts of things, we want to come to the scripture acknowledging this thing, right?

I want God to speak in such a way that I could grasp what he wants me to know. And so again, we want to use the proper tools of interpretation, hermeneutics, exegesis, these sorts of things, and allow the text to speak to us.

And so we want to avoid, and this is very difficult, especially talking about the book of Genesis. We want to avoid eisegesis. Now, for those who don't know these terms, I know many people who listen to my show most likely do, but just to throw it out there, in terms of biblical interpretation, we want to be aware of two terms.

Number one, there is exegesis, and exegesis refers to taking meaning out of the text, ex, out of, all right? Now, when we have eisegesis, eisegesis is when we read something into the text that's not there.

And so when we approach the book of Genesis, or approach any book for that matter, we want to be very careful not to approach the text of scripture already with a preconceived system that we're kind of overlaying on the text.

There's a sense in which we want to allow the text to speak for itself and to form how we think about the text, okay? And again, with respect to the book of Genesis, obviously people who are familiar with this stuff know that it is a big debate as to the meaning of Genesis as a whole, and more specifically, Genesis chapters one through 11.

And of course, you have the debates between young earth creationists, old earth creationists, you know, the theistic evolution, framework hypotheses, all these different views. Then you got the literal 24-hour interpretation.

These are all important discussions, by the way. But in approaching those things, we want to allow the text of scripture to speak for itself because we want to have a grasp on what Genesis is all about, because it is very relevant to what we say about other things especially pertaining to the gospel and so forth.

So very, very important. I hope that this is clear. Now, again, this is an unplanned live stream, but I do see a few people in the chat. If you have any questions about evangelism or you want to run an apologetic question by me, feel free to do so.

I'll stay on for a few more minutes. I kind of finished my main spiel here. Again, people who are just tuning in, I was exploring kind of the words of Francis Schaeffer where he said that if I had one hour, one hour with an unbeliever, I would spend 55 minutes talking about how man is the image of God, right?

Talking about the importance of man, the fall of man and its consequences. And then I would spend the last five minutes talking about the work of Christ, the work of Jesus, giving him the gospel. So setting up the man's fallenness so as to emphasize the need for Jesus, okay?

So that's basically what I was talking about. And so if you have any questions, I will give you time to do that. If not, I'll just keep going because I have coffee, which unfortunately needs to be microwaved.

You see what happens?

When I don't plan, I don't use my cup warmer. So my coffee has now gotten cold. Such is the problem of evil. This is a very, this is not good. So if you have any questions, you want some advice on evangelism, apologetics, theology question, please feel free to preface your question with question.

And I will take a few minutes to do that, okay? And so while folks are doing that, if they are in fact doing it, I will kind of just share a few things and then we'll see if there's anything there, okay?

All right, so real quick, just want to give people a heads up. If you're interested in learning apologetics in a more structured fashion, I offer courses that I teach that can be accessed on my website.

It's a great way to support Revealed Apologetics. If you go to revealedapologetics .com and then you click on the dropdown menu entitled PresuppU, I have two courses that I've created. One is called an Introduction to Biblical Apologetics.

And it's kind of an intermediate level introduction to presuppositional apologetic methodology. And then I created a new course called Presupp Applied. And it's basically applying, how to apply presuppositional apologetics to atheism, to Roman Catholicism, to presuppositional Eastern Orthodoxy, to the cults, how to navigate apologetic conversations, these sorts of things.

And so you could access those things. It's a great way to support what I'm doing as well. All right, okay, so we have a question here. So Benny, thank you, Benny, for your question. Do you have a list of verses to learn evangelism and apologetics?

Well, I don't have a list, although there are some lists. Let me actually do this here.