February 2, 2018 Show with Interviews from the 2018 G3 Conference Part 1: Jeremy & Jinger Vuolo PLUS Dawain Atkinson

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on the second day of February 2018, and today we're going to be airing some of the interviews

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I conducted on -site at the recent G3 conference, the

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G3 conference which stands for Grace, Gospel, and Glory, headed by Pastor Josh Bice of Praise Mill Baptist Church in Douglasville, Georgia, and the event actually took place at the

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Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta, and it was a really spectacular conference, a very valuable one for G3, or should

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I say for Iron Sharpens Iron to be present at G3 because of the contacts that I made, because of the wonderful interviews

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I conducted, and for many other reasons that will be made known to you over the course of the next few weeks,

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God willing, but one of the interviews that I conducted there, which is the first I'm going to be playing for you today, was an interview

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I conducted with my friend Jeremy Volo and his wife Ginger Volo, who is one of the

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Duggar girls that you may remember from that program, the

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TV program, the reality program about the Duggars, that very large Christian family, and Ginger is one member of that family.

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So I hope that you enjoy all of these interviews that I've conducted, and here we are with the first one with Pastor Jeremy Volo and Ginger Volo.

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This is Chris Arnzen again on site at the G3 conference here in Atlanta, Georgia.

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This is the second to final day of the conference, and I'm so delighted to have a returning guest and a first -time guest at the same time here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Returning to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is Pastor Jeremy Volo of Grace Community Church of Laredo, Texas, who happens to be the son of a dear couple who are friends of mine,

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Pastor Chuck Volo and his wife. Pastor Chuck actually is an evangelist to the

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Amish community, someone that you don't hear resembling that description very often, and he has actually been used of God to lead

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Amish folks to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, and if you want to hear that program that I did with Chuck Volo, actually along with a former

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Amish individual who came to Christ, who is actually a part of a documentary called Trouble in Amish Paradise, you can go to ironsharpensironradio .com

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and in the archive of past programs and podcasts just type in the search engine,

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V as in victory, U -O -L -O, and you will have both Pastor Jeremy's former interviews, previous interviews with us, and also

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Pastor Chuck Volo's interviews, and Pastor Jeremy's mom's interview that she did with us on SWAN, which is a ministry of hers, but also joining us for the very first time ever is

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Ginger Volo, which is Pastor Jeremy's wife, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you both to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and one thing that many of our listeners might find fascinating is that Ginger Volo is

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Ginger Duggar Volo, and she is one of the Duggar girls, and I believe you have approximately 125 siblings?

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That's correct, yes, pretty much, 125, that's a good number, no, there's 18 siblings, 18 siblings, and the

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Volo's, Jeremy and Ginger Volo, were actually very recently arrested in Provo, Utah for being a handsome couple without Mormon membership, it's actually against the law in Provo, Utah to be a handsome couple without being

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Mormon, I'm only kidding. Is it actually? I'm following you here,

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Chris. But first of all, we have to have Jeremy, even though you've been a guest in the program before, we have new listeners joining us on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio all the time who may have not heard you, well if they're new listeners, they definitely didn't hear you on our last program, and they may not be familiar with you, so why don't you tell our listeners about Grace Community Church of Laredo, Texas?

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Yeah, so we're in Laredo, which is on the border of the United States and Mexico, it's one of the more prominent border towns, there are about 300 ,000 people approximately, a small church, a church plant of Grace Community Church in San Antonio, Texas, about eight years ago, and so yeah, the

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Lord's been doing some really wonderful things in Laredo, a lot of people coming to faith in the

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Lord Jesus Christ, it's been exciting to see salvation, and I've been there for just over three years, now

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Ginger has been with me there for just over a year, we got married in November 2016, and so it's been exciting to see what

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God's doing in that community, and we're now expecting our first child in July, and so that's an exciting addition we're looking forward to.

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Any names picked up, do you know the gender yet? We're hoping to find out the gender in the next few weeks.

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Okay, great. Are you trying to think of names anyway, on both sides, whether it's a boy or a girl?

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We'll take some suggestions for sure, we both like unique names, but names that have a lot of meaning to them.

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Alright, I've got one for you, I doubt that I will be having children at this point in my life, my late wife and I unfortunately didn't have any, so I don't think

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I'm in a point in my life going to be 56 on Valentine's Day, I don't think I'll be having any children. So you can have, if you want, a name that I always wanted to use for a boy,

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Courage, and you could even call him Cory if you wanted to. Wow, that's a great name.

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You have my permission. I like that. You know, we are really thinking of something unique, but not, you know, something that would be difficult to spell or for the boy or girl to have for the rest of their life, and so we'll write that one down, we're taking all suggestions, we're writing them down, and putting together first and middle name combinations, you know.

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It's fun, so to try to think of, you know, it's an interesting thing because, you know,

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I've thought before about the names of your children, what they might be, but then it's different when you actually are a father, and you're actually a mother, and you're waiting for this child to be born, and you're thinking, whatever

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I decide, this child is going to be stuck with or enjoy for the rest of their life.

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That's a lot of pressure. Yes. I guess that's parenthood, huh? Yeah, and I had never, to my memory, ever heard of anybody named

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Courage. No, neither have I. That's great. I just thought it was a cool name, but anyway. It's a name to live up to.

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Yes. Yeah, and if you're not Courageous, your kids, your fellow, your friends,

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I should say, in the playground or in the street are sure to mock you if you are not Courageous, so you have to live up to that.

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Exactly. And I'm glad that you mentioned San Antonio, Texas, the church that planted you, correct?

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Because it reminded me of something very important about you. You are a former San Antonio Scorpion professional soccer player.

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That's right. I played four years of professional soccer my first year in Finland, and then

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I went to the New York Red Bulls in New York and spent my last two years with San Antonio.

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So they actually named the soccer team after a product. Oh yeah, and it's owned by the

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Red Bull organization. They've got all sorts of teams and athletes with that designation.

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I wonder if that's the first time in history that a professional sports team was named after a product you could buy.

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I can't think of any. I'm not sure of a product you could buy, perhaps, but definitely a sports energy drink,

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I would imagine. Like the Georgia Gatorades or something? Or the Florida Gatorade?

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Well that did originate, Gatorade came from the Florida Gators. Right, right. But not the other way around.

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It might be a unique piece of history. And by the way, you could also hear more about Jeremy's own testimony and his time as a

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San Antonio Scorpion at the Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio Archive. But I want to hear something about Ginger's testimony.

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It's going to be interesting to hear about your Christian testimony because a lot of folks who are raised in Christian families, they cannot really remember a time when they didn't believe in Jesus.

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Their memory going back as far as they knew they had a brain at all, they just always remember believing in Jesus and loving

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Jesus and worshipping Jesus with the family. But sometimes, even the best of Christian parents, you could have parents that are, you know, where the dad is a pastor.

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And you could have very rebellious children that never come to faith in Christ, which disproves this false notion that unfortunately some of my

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Reformed brethren seem to have that you can breed Christianity physically and that your children are somehow guaranteed being

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Christian, which we should all know that that's not true at all. But tell us something about being raised in the

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Duggar home and basically the providential circumstances in your life where you knew that you needed a

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Savior and that you were drawn to Him and that you embraced Him. Yeah, so that is something that I've talked to many young people who have grown up in Christian homes.

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And I know for myself, growing up in a

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Christian home was such a huge blessing, just knowing, having so much knowledge of Scripture and seeing it exemplified around me.

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And I was just so grateful for that blessing. Many people don't have the privilege of growing up in a

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Christian home. Along with that, you have other challenges that come as well. Just like you said, like not knowing for sure, because you can have so much knowledge of God's Word, but then the relationship, not being there for yourself and establishing that for yourself or knowing, okay, because you can have such great morals and think that you're somewhat a good person without, you know, theologically,

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I didn't think that. But in your heart, you don't see your sin as much maybe because it's corrected at every corner, which is a blessing in a sense, but then also the downside of that.

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So at the age of six, I remember my little sister or my older sister, she had came into the room and told all of us that she was saved.

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And she was, I remember that time and I was six years old and I was kind of looking at her like, wow, that's great.

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I want to do the same. So I prayed a little prayer and I thought, great, I'm saved. I'm definitely saved.

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And so for many years, I held on to that as my profession.

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But I began seeing in my life, it was not bearing the fruit of salvation.

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It was not, there was nothing in my heart that made me desire to read God's Word. I didn't want to read it.

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I would read it because I thought, okay, I'll read five minutes here and there, you know, and I would do what was necessarily required of a

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Christian. But my heart was far from that. And I began to see just so many, so many issues of sin in my own heart.

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The Lord was exposing my sin to me in His graciousness. And as I saw that,

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I remember at the age of 12, 13, it was just a real struggle for me because I was so afraid of sharing that I was not truly saved.

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Because I had held to that profession for so many years, gone to church, all my friends thought I was saved. Because I was a real, my personality was one not to want to get in trouble.

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I seemed to have a lot of head knowledge of the Bible, but I did not love Christ. I knew it in my heart.

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And so I would go through the emotions and everything. Well, at the age of 14, I remember being crushed with the weight of my sin.

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I was broken. I knew I wasn't saved. But I was too arrogant to even acknowledge that.

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And the Lord just crushed me and laid me out flat. I was telling my mom, I remember I was telling her, I was just, like,

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I just see my sin. Like, I'm so lost. And at the age of 14 is,

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I don't have any exact date or anything, no. But like the Lord just showed me my sin throughout the period of time.

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And I just remember in that year, I just started having a love and a hunger for God's word.

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Like, I confess my sin to the Lord. You know, my sin of arrogance was probably the biggest one. Because the pride of growing up in a

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Christian home, hanging on to that profession. But then, okay, like I was baptized. And I was,

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I remember just being like, wow, I am not saved. So, but throughout that time, after that, it was like the hunger for God's word.

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I did not want to put the Bible down. And I wanted to share the gospel with everyone. And so evangelism became such a big thing that I was just like,

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I want everyone to know. I want my aunt to know she's lost. My uncle, they don't know Christ. And so just sharing

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Christ with others. But also, not that, but just the love for Christ and His word.

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Just truly, it was the Lord who changed my heart. And it was only Him and His mercy.

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Because I know that the danger of myself, I could have gone on like that and spent the rest of my life holding to that profession that was false.

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And I think that just looking back now as to where the Lord's led us, and now being married to Jeremy, for the

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Lord leading me even doctrinally in many things in His word. And I'm just so grateful.

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So grateful for God's mercy. Oh, praise God for that. Praise God. And I'm sure there was a time of rejoicing when you confessed this to your parents, and you truly were making a genuine profession of faith in Christ.

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Yes. It was a weight off my shoulders, really. Like, I just felt like for so many years, I knew.

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I knew that my heart was, I knew where it was. But I was too arrogant. It was my pride.

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I have interviewed a number of people who were raised in Christian homes and all their lives professed to be a

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Christian. And they came to, like you did, they came to a point in their lives when although they were never involved in scandalous sin, they weren't doing drugs or getting drunk or fornicating or doing anything that was outlandish that would be considered scandalous from the point of view of a

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Christian. They were guilty of what have been called acceptable sins.

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And that is a term of being said sarcastically, that there are

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Christians who think there are certain things that are acceptable just because they're not scandalous, but they're not.

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They're sins that would send you to hell if you were not covered by the blood of Christ. And one of those very horrible and tragically acceptable sins is the sin of pride.

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And you can be very lifted up in the fact that you are, this is the Pharisee praying in the temple, looking at the tax collector where you're looking down on everybody else around you and aren't

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I such a good person that I'm Christian. Well, it really goes back to the nature of sin, doesn't it?

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Yes. What is sin in its core? Well, it's idolatry of self.

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It's refusing to worship God and worshiping self instead. So when we define sin as murder or severe drug abuse or the like and anything less than that, well, you're not really that bad, you're a good person.

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We've totally missed the mark of what sin is. Sin is a matter of worship. That's where if you look in Romans 1, it begins with refusing to worship and honor

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God and worshiping and serving the creature rather than the creator. And so the result of that can be all sorts of manifestations, whether it's a self -righteous little child or the worst display of sin you can imagine.

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It's all a manifestation of the worship of self. And so when we go to judge our sin and our need for Christ, it's not based upon how we feel about how we're measuring up.

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It's a matter of do we believe what God has said about our self -idolatry as being an absolute, all -out rejection of him as creator and God and a declaration of our own autonomy, our own independence from him as creator.

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It doesn't matter if we feel like we're horrific. The fact is God tells us we are in our autonomy.

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And so it really comes down to the nature of sin and do we believe God about what he says about sin. Amen. And every time

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I have been in the company of little children at like a holiday gathering or any other kind of gathering, just going to dinner,

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I very often treat a family that I know. The mom

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I led to Christ, I'm sorry, I'm giving that in reverse. The mom led me to Christ back in the 1980s and her adult children often accompany us to a restaurant and the grandkids are around there and often reminded about when you see little children grabbing a toy from another sibling and a fight ensues.

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That doesn't have to be taught to them. That kind of behavior is coming out of the inherited sin that children are born with.

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You don't teach little Tommy to push down little Susie so her knee gets scraped in the playground.

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You have to teach him how to be polite and say sorry and ask forgiveness. You don't teach children how to lie.

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Teach them, no, don't lie. So it really is reflective in our behavior even very early on.

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Amen. So how did you two meet? That's a very interesting story.

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Yeah, so it started through, well, let's see. It is a fascinating story. Do you want the long, medium or short version here?

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As long as you want. All right, well, I'll tell some of my side and you chime in, love, when you want to.

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I was pastoring down Laredo but at that point I hadn't been called as the pastor yet.

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I was still just overseeing the work. So I was going back and forth between San Antonio and Laredo. In fact, it just dawned on me

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I've known you longer than your wife has. Hey, there you go. That's so true.

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That's true. When you were on my program, you were single and I'm not even sure if you have any significant other at that point.

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I don't know. No, I didn't. Okay. Yeah, good little fact there. Well, things when they got rolling with Ginger and I, they rolled quickly.

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So I was going back and forth between Laredo and San Antonio and one

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Sunday night I was coming back to San Antonio from Laredo to my house, which I had rented out to a few guys.

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So we lived together. Well, I didn't own the house. I was living with three or four guys from the church and they would have fellowships on Sunday nights, which was nice.

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I'd come back from Laredo and the guys would be having pizza and a bunch of people over fellowshipping. And so I get back and there's

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Ben Seawald with his wife, Jessa Seawald, former Jessa Dugger. So I walk into my house and there they are.

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And I hadn't seen the show much really at all. I think

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I recognized Jessa, but maybe not Ben. And so Ben and I are sitting there talking and we just really hit it off.

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And so he said, Hey man, let me get your numbers. I said, yeah, all right. And took them to the airport later that night.

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They had to go get a rental car and we were just texting here and there. And so just my friendship with Ben and Jessa just began flourishing.

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You know, when you meet someone and you just have that connection, you know, it's just a kindred spirit with them and you think, wow, you know, you just really get on well.

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Well, that's what happened with me and Ben. And so I went out to visit Ben and Jessa a few times, got to know the family a bit, met

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Ginger. But it wasn't until maybe six months later that I really began to think about Ginger.

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And so I went out with the purpose of, okay, now I went out to visit

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Ben and Jessa, but I wanted to see what this girl was about. I wanted to get to know her a little bit.

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You remember that first visit, right? Yeah, I definitely remember when, I remember Jeremy coming to visit here and there.

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And then I remember a specific visit. He came for like, there was a baby shower and he came that day.

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And the next morning we ended up having flights that were headed out at the same time. We're both flying out.

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He was flying home. I was flying to a ministry. And it was amazing because our flights were at the same time.

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So Ben's like, oh, I could just take both of you to the airport. And so I was like, oh, that'd be great. Yeah, that'd be awesome. And so in the airport, we ended up having some conversation.

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Yeah, there we are at 5 .15am talking, you know, fellowshipping. And I think the moment,

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I say this maybe tongue in cheek, but maybe the moment I fell in love with this beautiful woman is when she brought up John 15 at 5 .30

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in the morning and started talking about abiding in Christ, which is what I'm preaching on today at the

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G3. Wow, is that why you're preaching? No, but it is one of my favorite passages.

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I think it's so rich. But to hear that scripture was flowing out of this girl just naturally.

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It wasn't something she was posing for. It wasn't something she had to kind of collect herself and say, okay, let's talk

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Bible now. It was just flowing out of her, even when the world is asleep, you know, at 5 .15 in the morning and we're in the airport.

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And so I really was seeing her heart. And that's something I'll just say, you know, through this story, you said you'll take the long version.

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So, you know, I'm a pastor, right? Right. One of the things I'll say, and I talked to a lot of young men and singles in our church and elsewhere,

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I was terrified of marriage in one sense. I grew up in the church. I'd literally seen at one point a deacon married for 10 years, three children.

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And his wife said, forget it. Forget Christianity. Not forget the marriage. Marriage was going fine. But forget

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Christianity. I'm out. And so you see that enough and you say, man, who do

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I marry? How do I know? Everybody can play the game, but how do I know this person loves

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Christ? Well, when I saw her heart, she submitted to God's word.

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If God spoke, she listened, wrestled with it, sought to conform her life to it.

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It wasn't, I mean, look at her. She's not got a face for the radio. You know, she's a beautiful woman.

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But that wasn't what drew me. I mean, initially you say, wow, she's beautiful. Now I think you're lying.

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Well, there's obviously this initial, there's got to be an initial attraction. But when

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I got to know her and I went, whoa, she's hungry for God's word.

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She loves Christ. It gave me a confidence in her where I didn't have those fears.

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I presumed I might have, how do I know? I total confidence through the wedding day, through today, total confidence in who she is in Christ.

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And it was because of those conversations you start having where the scriptures are flowing out and you can tell she loves

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Jesus. And so from there, what happened next was this, I let my, you know, desire known to Ben and Jessa.

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And so there was a missions trip coming up where her family was going to Central America.

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And I went on that missions trip. And maybe you could say

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I had a dual mission on that missions trip, certainly to reach the people with the gospel and to love and help our neighbors in Central America.

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But I was on a mission to get to know Ginger better. And so at that point, that was in December of 2015.

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And it was then on the missions trip, I got to know her dad really well and her brothers. And so just being able to build that connection with her father,

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I wanted to respect her father and her mother and not just try to subvert them and say, okay, got your daughter.

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And I wanted to go through the father and say, you know, you don't know me from Adam, but I want to get to know you.

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And I do have an interest in your daughter. And so that's what we did. We got to know each other. And over the course of time,

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Ginger and I got to know each other more and more. And it was incredible, I think, because I had known

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Jeremy for quite some time, just from a distance as friends, as family friends. And the more

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I saw his heart, I was just so attracted to that.

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I was like, I've never seen a man like this before, who doesn't just talk about Christ. And he doesn't have just that, like a head knowledge, but it was a heart, like in his heart.

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He, I think, just exemplified Christ in every aspect of his life.

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And that was just overflowing. And that was what I noticed right off. And I told my mom,

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I remember, I came back from that missions trip. And I told her, I was like, I just, I just don't know.

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But like, this, this guy is far greater than anything I could have ever, you know, that I've ever seen or could have asked

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God for. And I told her, I said, I feel safe with him, in a sense, you know, just even in, like,

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I would feel safe with him, if the Lord would bring that about. That was an answer to prayer in itself. I'd prayed before going on the mission trip.

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Lord, if this is your will, then put a desire for me on her heart. And unbeknownst to the two of us, we both had a desire for one another.

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And it was one of those situations where we both thought the other person wouldn't be interested. I thought there's no chance she's gonna be interested in me.

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And I guess she thought the same. So it was really the Lord was, I think, knitting our hearts and we didn't even know it.

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That's funny, because that description is probably the polar opposite of the way my wife thought about me before we were married.

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She had to learn to love me. At least she used to say, I think she exaggerated.

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She said, when I first met you, I hated you. I thought you were self -absorbed. You were just constantly talking about yourself.

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And I hated the way you dress. And my wife actually did teach me how to dress much better.

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And she used to buy me clothes. She bought me my first really nice pair of shoes. In fact, my first nice suit.

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That's what I'm thinking about. Well, I wish everybody listening could see what you've got on today, because it is to be admired.

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It's a great suit -tie combination. Yes, and this tie was given to me by the aforementioned woman who led me to Christ in the 1980s and two of her adult children.

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They chipped in for Christmas and bought me this tie and this watch. That's amazing. And Todd Friel yesterday was making fun of one of those ties, but I put him in his place.

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Unbelievable. He got down on his knees and asked forgiveness. I'm not even exaggerating. I was talking to my webmaster,

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Eric, who's sitting here, who was an eyewitness to this. Well, I would love to have been a fly on the wall when you told

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Ginger's parents that I have an interest in your daughter. Did the countenance in any way change?

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Did they beam with smiles? Did they kind of go tabula rosa? How did they react?

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I think it's an experience that young men, regardless of how old you are, who you are, what you've done in life, where you've been, going to ask a man, a father, that if you could get to know or date or court or be with his daughter is intimidating because you start to realize, whoa, this is this guy's daughter.

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But Mr. Duggar was actually, when I talked to him about Ginger, he confirmed to me everything about her.

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He spoke very highly and said, you know, you're a smart man for having an interest in Ginger and proceeded to tell me about her character, things that I'd seen but were confirmed.

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What a great reaction. That's a good reaction. Response. But it didn't mean, okay, you got her.

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Right. Still had some work to do. So his answer was, well, why don't you and I start to get to know each other a little bit more?

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I thought, great. Wow, that's great. And so, yeah, that's how it took place. And then when

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I had to ask him if I could propose to her, so here's this influx of butterflies all of a sudden in my entire body.

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And so I said, Mr. Duggar, I don't remember my exact words, but I said, Mr. Duggar, I was thinking I have a plan for proposing to Ginger.

32:00

I know it may be earlier than you expect or sooner than you'd like. And I told him the plan in New York City where I wanted to propose and his response was,

32:09

I think it's a great idea. Great. So he responded positively to me.

32:15

I think your father is to be commended that he did not immediately jump on the opportunity to have his daughter involved with a pastor, because I know that a lot of Christian parents are terrified about their daughters, especially.

32:33

They have concerns about their sons, but they're terrified about who their daughters might be attracted to, fall in love with, et cetera, because unfortunately it is notorious amongst

32:45

Christian families that girls will try to win a lost person to Christ by dating them and even marrying them thinking,

32:56

I can change this person. And they wind up having nightmares that they later regret as far as their marriages are concerned.

33:06

Very often they end in tragic divorces and so on, ugly, bitter divorces. But I admired

33:12

Ginger's father for, even though you were a pastor, this stunningly handsome guy, athlete, the whole deal, intelligent.

33:19

He's like, well, let's just chill out here a bit. Let me get to know you. And chill out we did.

33:24

We did. It took some time, but it was good. We really took a lot of time, myself and Ginger, getting to know each other.

33:35

And we were distant, so I wasn't around. It was distant. But we had so many discussions and talked about so many things, and also with her father.

33:45

So we knew where we stood. We knew who we were. We really got to know each other. And it was such an aid.

33:52

It was really helpful in establishing even our relationship. A lot of people think, and Christians think, sadly, you know, we're in this millennial generation.

34:02

We just bypass the parents. It's just old -fashioned, not how we do it. And even some parents don't expect it, that a young man would come to the father.

34:11

But when you do, regardless of whether they expect it, want it, or not, you're showing such a high regard for the father, for the mother, and a respect for them.

34:23

And that continues through your marriage relationship. I mean, these people, if you marry one another, they're going to be your family for the next decades.

34:34

And it sets it off on a right foot of respect, and regard, and esteem, where you're not just trying to bypass to get your way.

34:43

Can you tell us anything about the challenges that you faced,

34:49

Ginger, growing up in such a large family? And I'm sure that there are both blessings and challenges.

34:55

I'm sure that there were points in your life, although I'm assuming things that might not be true, but I'm assuming that there were points in your life where you were saying to yourself,

35:02

I wish I didn't have so many brothers and sisters, and that kind of a thing. What do you have to say about that? Because I'm sure that's on the minds of a lot of our listeners.

35:10

Yeah, so growing up in a big home, I think the challenges were definitely,

35:16

I remember in my younger years, we lived in a very, quite a small house, and it had a bathroom, like one bathroom that all of us kids had to share.

35:25

And that was definitely... One bathroom? Well, we had, my parents had a bathroom, but you know, we had our one bathroom that we wanted to share.

35:32

How did you ever get anywhere on time? We didn't. We didn't. We called it Duggar time.

35:39

And yes, I remember so many of those things. But as far as challenges go,

35:46

I was so grateful for my parents and their desire really to make it a happy home.

35:54

And I think by that, my mom, I had never heard her raise her voice, maybe like once in my life, but she would always purpose to lower her voice.

36:06

When she had a couple kids, the Lord really convicted her of her anger.

36:12

And she just cried out to God and asked God to help her with that. And so she said when she had a difficult situation or the kids were going crazy, the house was a wreck, she would just go, and if she had to step away for a minute, and she would come back.

36:28

And if she said, Ginger, I told you to pick that up, she would say it like in a low voice. And we'd be like,

36:34

Oh, my mom is serious. I'm in big trouble now. But I think... And she wasn't holding a butcher knife or anything.

36:42

No. But I think for her setting that example in the home, she told us like we are each other's best friends, and we needed to treat each other that way.

36:50

And so she wouldn't put up with us like holding grudges against a sibling or something.

36:57

I remember my sisters, a couple of them, they had great trouble getting along. And they shared a bedroom.

37:02

And one of them would kick the mattress above the other, just, you know, the other one was on the top bunk, they're kicking their mattress, just always going at each other.

37:11

And, and, but I think through that, my parents, they saw that, and they're like, Well, this is a good thing to keep them in the same room, you know, we're gonna let them work out these challenges, but walk them through it.

37:21

And now, to this day, those two girls are like best of friends, and they do everything together.

37:27

And I think in that they've always tried to point us to Christ and a selfless love for one another.

37:34

And so I think in that, it made the home a happy place to be. It didn't feel like we were like seeking for mom and dad's attention.

37:43

Like there was never, there was never that feeling of like, Oh, great, I'm just one out of 19.

37:50

You know, and they they did an excellent job. So they would if they were going to the grocery store, mom would take one of us with her.

37:56

And she had a list. She was great and very organized. She had a list that she would take us to the store. And, and we couldn't afford much in those days.

38:04

And so she would let us pick out one thing for a dollar, but it was our treat with mom. And then dad would take us if he was going to work on a house, he would take one of one or two of us kids.

38:13

And so they were very good about spending quality time with us kids. And so I think in that, I looking back,

38:20

I don't regret being there. I loved it. Like throughout that time, I never felt like,

38:26

Oh, I wish I was the only child, you know, I never felt that. I think because they balanced, balanced very, very well.

38:33

It just occurred to me that your family could have sporting events where every single person on the field is a member of your family, pretty much these nine people still waiting on the bench.

38:45

And so yes, we play a lot of basketball growing up, kickball and then volleyball all together, full team.

38:51

Now I remember growing up, I am the youngest of five. And only three were still in the home, two of my siblings with me in the home growing up.

39:05

And even though there were so few people in the home, my mom would typically when looking for me, would call me by the name of my second oldest brother, my brother closest in age to me and the dog.

39:19

I'm not even, I'm not lying. My mother used to go, Tammy, I mean, Chris. So how did that work with with so many siblings in your house?

39:29

I think my parents were good for the most part getting our names. They would mess up on occasion. I think that was more grandma and grandpa's issue, calling us by the wrong names.

39:40

But they were, yeah, I would hear sometimes people would go through and they'd be like,

39:46

Gina, Jessa, who are you? You know, because a couple of us looked alike with that many kids.

39:52

You have some that look like twins. So I think for the most part, though, they did a good job. Now, to bring up something unpleasant that a lot of Christians, unfortunately, far too many

40:04

Christians, and I've never heard Christians say this specifically about the number of siblings you have, but I have heard them say things about other large families where they actually

40:14

Christian. I'm talking about born again Christians get upset when they see large families that are far above the norm.

40:23

Those people should not be having that many children. That's really horrible. That's a strain on the church.

40:29

And on and on and on you go. How do you react to that kind of thing? It's quite amazing to me when

40:34

I hear Christians, Bible -believing Christians who know from the word of God that children are a gift from God.

40:46

And yet they have this negative reaction. Sometimes I think it may be just jealousy, perhaps, that they don't have that many children.

40:52

But I don't know. I don't know what the situation is. How do you respond to that? I think, too, like knowing that's not a burden in that sense, like kids aren't a burden.

41:01

And so it's not like we have that perspective as Christians. And then also thinking like how many, you know, one person may not be able to handle 19 kids.

41:11

I think my mom is incredible. And so when you look at it in that perspective, too, you think the person who's getting super upset, they probably can't handle, you know, they wouldn't be able to handle that.

41:20

And we don't know, you know, different people might not be able to do that. And so I think looking at it from a perspective of children are a blessing.

41:29

And if the Lord, you know, has given us one child to raise, or if he's given us, as my parents said, 19 kids to raise, that he will give us the grace to do that.

41:40

Now, with such a large family, and now, Pastor Jeremy, you are a part of this large family.

41:47

Are there any large interactions where there's differences of theology bantered about that become very stimulating?

41:58

I don't know, perhaps even somewhat heated discussions with all these people talking about the

42:03

Word of God and perhaps even have some differences. There's going to be differences when you get a group of Christians together, right?

42:11

Even today at this conference, I look around at some of these godly men, and they disagree, men and women, and disagree on issues.

42:18

Even on the speaking roster. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And one of the beautiful things that I found in my interaction with my family, my in -laws, and I don't call my in -laws,

42:29

I call them family, mom and dad, and brothers and sisters. But one of the things is that I think it's a beautiful display of Christian unity in the sense of what

42:39

Romans 14 talks about. Paul says, don't get together over dinner to argue.

42:47

I mean, the conclusion of Romans 14, where he's talking about differences, is have them over for dinner and don't bring up those secondary issues.

42:56

And that's really been what's been displayed with the family. It's been, I mean, yeah, sure, I think there's differences in theological perspective here or there or here, but it's wonderfully united.

43:08

There's a love. I'm excited to see the family. I hope they're excited to see me.

43:14

They are. And we love each other. We talk. I love talking with the brothers a lot.

43:20

And we can talk and talk and talk. And there's a unity there. And it's something that we pray that that unity would be reflective in the church at large.

43:31

There are times when you need to divide on certain issues at certain times and make those divisions clear.

43:40

I get that. I understand that. But we often divide on things that do not need to be divided upon.

43:48

And when you really think about, is Christ in that person? Is he united to that person?

43:55

When you think of the union of Christ with his saints, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?

44:03

What Saul was doing against the Christians, he was doing against Christ. And when you see your fellow

44:09

Christian in that light, it kind of changes how you interact with them, doesn't it, when you see them united to Christ?

44:15

And so I think it's been a wonderful display of, yeah, I mean, certainly there can be theological differences at different points.

44:22

But do we love Christ? Are we united to Christ in the gospel, in the true gospel? Yes. So there's fellowship and there's love there.

44:31

And another thing I'll say is this, and it's sad. I don't know, I can't say all the reasons why people behave the way they do in Christendom, in evangelical

44:41

Christianity. But one of the issues I see, and I think we're all susceptible to it, is when we look at our theological opponents on secondary issues within evangelicalism, and we sit in our ivory towers and we write dissertations and books and yell back and forth, and we can use very cutting language.

45:04

We can cut at the person's character, which is totally unnecessary in a theological discussion, or we can cut at the person's personality or decisions they've made with their family.

45:15

And you see this rampant. Well, when you have a theological discussion with mom and you're on different sides of the aisle, it ought to change how you approach these issues.

45:30

Because you're not writing a book or a dissertation about some theologian across the country. You're sitting down over a table with dad or your brother or your mom.

45:40

And so the tone changes and there's a saturation of love and warmth and appreciation.

45:48

You know, a lot of times I have, whether it's with family or someone else, you have a theological disagreement. And the conclusion

45:54

I come to is this, is I totally see how you come to that conclusion from Scripture.

46:02

I disagree with it. I have this conclusion, but I totally get why you believe what you believe on that point.

46:09

Being able to do that and pleading with the Lord for humility to do that and holding your convictions with conviction, but in humility.

46:20

I heard one brother, one of the godliest men I would consider to know, who's a missionary in the

46:25

Far East. He uses this phrase and I've adopted it. He'll say on these secondary points,

46:31

I'm not talking about gospel issues, Chris. I'm not talking about there's one true gospel. If anyone preaches any other gospel, let him be anathema.

46:38

I'm talking about these secondary issues. And he says this phrase when he's discussing these at times, in my present understanding.

46:47

And then he expresses conviction. I like that. Yeah. Because it allows, we say we're reformed, but are we reforming?

46:55

Yeah, I believe it shows a submission to God's authority in Scripture. How I presently see this, when you have a

47:03

John MacArthur, an R .C. Sproul, an Albert Moeller with differing views on these certain positions, all of them holding them passionately with conviction, and yet they're able to fellowship.

47:18

We can learn something from that. Well, we know right now R .C. Sproul is right on everything. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

47:24

And of course, the caveat would be, though, that is only in regard to secondary and tertiary issues.

47:33

You would never say, in my current understanding of the gospel or the deity of Christ, if you are a regenerate person.

47:40

Correct. And that's why there's a necessary division when it comes to sects and cults of supposed

47:46

Christianity, where you simply cannot compromise. And once you do, you do compromise the gospel.

47:53

Amen. Well, something that you are both going to be facing is your own child, and perhaps hopefully children growing up, facing issues of whom they are going to seriously approach with views of marriage.

48:11

And it's obvious that the model that either you intentionally followed or just providentially followed was the model of courtship, when you two developed a relationship before you were married.

48:27

Do you have any strict philosophy on that as far as dating versus courtship?

48:33

And believe it or not, perhaps you can answer this question. While I see much value in the courtship model, much superior value, it seems, than a dating practice.

48:51

One thing that I can't get past in my head is if you are going to court someone,

48:58

I can't help but think that very often, if you are going to be looking for a person that before you even really get to know them, you're saying in your mind, this is a person

49:11

I'm going to pursue for marriage. I can't help but think it's always going to be somebody who's very attracted physically.

49:17

Whereas if you're dating people as a young person, of course

49:22

Christians, if you're in a Christian home, you may grow to enjoy the company of somebody that you never would have thought of previously, pursuing for marriage, who might not be as stunning as the other girl or girls at church, but you're, wow, this person is fascinating.

49:41

This person is hilariously funny. This person is talented and an emotional attachment may form.

49:48

So how do you respond to what I just said? Yeah, there's a few points. I think it comes down to your definition of terms. When we're asked about it and we're given a soundbite, what we want to communicate is our desire to honor and glorify the

50:00

Lord. So courtship is not a biblical term, nor is dating, but what is biblical is

50:08

Paul telling Titus to behave toward the single women as in all purity, as toward his sisters.

50:16

That's applicable to men. And certainly the same ethic of purity is applicable to women on the other side of the aisle.

50:24

So our desire is to maintain relationships with the opposite sex in purity before the

50:32

Lord. So if you go through a courtship model and that's your desire to honor the

50:38

Lord, praise God, honor the Lord. If you, and again, we have to define our terms, but if you call it dating and you go about, well, you still are seeking to honor the

50:48

Lord. I know a lot of Christians who date and they're seeking to do it, honoring the Lord in purity before God, honoring one another.

50:56

And so there's freedom there where scripture is silent, right? But there's not freedom in the essential requirement to honor one another in purity.

51:07

And so that's how we saw, you know, we want to just honor Christ. We want to make

51:12

Jesus Christ look glorious through our getting to know one another.

51:18

And so every couple is going to wrestle that out. As far as what you said about dating and getting to know someone, that's a huge point.

51:27

And it's a problem today because we live in a superficial society, which feeds the flesh and your superficiality.

51:36

There are different societies at different points, which would have looked down perhaps upon such a superficial notion of relationships.

51:43

But we live in a society that sees relationships superficially. So it's attraction and often lust is considered love to a dimension, right?

51:52

And so my counsel would be if a young man or a young woman really desires a spouse who fears the

52:04

Lord and is going to draw them nearer to the Lord, then what are you looking at?

52:11

Yes, physical attraction is vital. There are simply people, one person will be attracted to and another person won't.

52:20

That's just how God has made us. And you look through scripture, you think, look at Ezekiel, you know how

52:25

Ezekiel describes his, or God describes Ezekiel's wife, the delight of his eyes.

52:31

I think that the light of the desire of his eyes, the delight of his soul, there's attraction and it's vital.

52:40

It's not a foolproof preventative, did I say that right? Preventative, but it aids in keeping marital faithfulness if you're attracted to your wife.

52:52

First Corinthians 7. Absolutely, it's an absolutely right outlet for those desires.

52:58

First Corinthians 7, Paul makes that argument. So it is necessary, however, is it the primary thing?

53:04

Well, the reality is that physical beauty will be outlasted by inner beauty.

53:11

And we're going to pick up on the rest of the interview with Jeremy Volo and his wife

53:17

Ginger, one of the Duggar Girls, right after this message from our sponsors, this brief station break.

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56:42

Okay, we're now back and we are going to rejoin the conversation that I just interrupted before the station break that I conducted on -site at the recent

56:55

G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia, with one of the speakers on the roster, Jeremy Volo, a friend of mine for a number of years.

57:03

We are now rejoining the conversation that I interrupted. The reality is that physical beauty will be outlasted by inner beauty.

57:14

And watch this, this is what's glorious, when if a young man or young woman truly has their sights set on Christ, you might not initially be attracted to someone when they walk in the room or think, whoa, all eyes turned, but you get to know them in the right context of the church.

57:30

You see how they serve, see their heart for God. And you know what many

57:35

Christ -centered young people discover? All of a sudden, they're the most attractive person who's ever walked the face of the earth because you see their heart.

57:47

And so the world's model of going first to the outward and kind of disregarding the inward, it's flipped because that outward will fade, but that inward will grow.

57:59

So if they were a selfish, narcissistic, egotistical person, well, as their physical beauty fades, their narcissism, everything is growing.

58:06

That's what you're going to end up with. Whereas if there's someone who's you're not as attracted to, but inside they're a beauty, they're a gem, that's only going to grow and flourish.

58:16

And your attraction to them will likewise flourish. One thing that I had in my mind, and this is what my father said this when

58:23

I was a child in a sermon, I just remember, he posed the question, what would happen if everybody's physical appearance was flipped for their spiritual condition?

58:37

Who would be the kings and the rich of society and who would be homeless in the gutters?

58:44

It makes you look at people how God looks at people. Man looks at the outward, but God looks at the inward.

58:50

That's stuck with me for decades, where I look at people and go, wow, they look beautiful. They have their Maserati, Beemer, Benz, Bentley.

58:57

They're rich. But what if their physical reflection or physical appearance reflected their soul?

59:07

What would they look like then? That's huge when you're looking for a spouse. I don't want to keep you too much longer, but I did want to address a couple of other things as briefly as possible to not rob you too much of your time here.

59:20

But the added factor in you making a decision about who you would marry, and in fact, this would go for Ginger as well,

59:28

I think, is that there's obviously a far greater calling for a woman who is marrying a pastor.

59:36

And the eyes of the congregation are going to be upon the wife of a pastor in a much more greater way than your average member of a church.

59:48

There's going to be a higher level of criticism, and there's going to be a higher level of expectation perhaps.

59:56

And there are certainly women who do not, even if they're Christian, should not be pastor's wives.

01:00:02

I could even remember a pastor's wife that I knew who did complain constantly in private conversation that she never wanted to be a pastor's wife, hated being one.

01:00:14

And I can remember my wife and I entering their home after we were invited over for dinner. We got there a little early, and she was beating her husband on the back with a vacuum cleaner pipe.

01:00:25

So there's a certain calling in life for a woman who's entering into that kind of a marriage to be a pastor's wife.

01:00:33

Well, I'll just say this. I immediately wanted to alleviate a certain unrealistic, undue, unrighteous pressure upon my wife.

01:00:43

Even before the church, and it was this. Look for the qualifications of a pastor's wife in Scripture.

01:00:49

You know what you find? She has to be a godly woman, just a Christian, pursuing Christ. There is one qualification, hospitable.

01:00:58

And I only say that because the pastor is called to be hospitable. So his wife needs to be open to hosting people, right?

01:01:05

There needs to be hospitality there. But this modern notion of superwoman, you know, leading this, leading that, doing this, doing that, look, uh -uh.

01:01:15

And unfortunately, that is the expectation of many Christians. And I wanted to alleviate that pressure from her immediately.

01:01:21

Yes, there's the expectation, as there is on every Christian, to pursue Christ and to pursue the holiness without which no man will see the

01:01:27

Lord. But she is not in some upper echelon of Christianity. She doesn't need to be a counselor and a teacher and a musician and a secretary.

01:01:42

She needs to be a woman who loves Christ and opens her home as a support to the ministry of her husband.

01:01:50

And I wanted to alleviate that undue pressure that can be put on a pastor's wife. And how successful was he alleviating that pressure?

01:01:57

Very. It was very good. I think just for me walking into that place, everyone has been so gracious.

01:02:04

And I did not feel the pressure that, because I heard from a lot of people about the pressures that you could feel being a pastor's wife and a lot that could be expected of you.

01:02:15

But I was so grateful for the wisdom that God gave Jeremy in that. And yes,

01:02:21

I love serving in the church however I can, but not feeling the pressure to do so has been wonderful.

01:02:27

Amen. One thing I wanted to ask before we conclude the message, something that you might not have even expected, but because of the fact that every day, every single day, multiple times a day on the news, we are hearing the war between those on both sides of the political aisle and even between people on the same side of the political aisle, the issues over immigration and illegal aliens and so on.

01:02:52

And you are a border state pastor. And I'm sure you would agree with me that no matter what side of the aisle or what side of the argument or the debate you're on in regard to how strictly or leniently we are to address illegal aliens, one thing that Christians have to never forget is even if you believe in the strictest borders that our government will allow, and I am leaning in on that and myself, we have to remember these are human beings and that they are a mission field and that we have to have compassion towards these people that have an eternity facing them.

01:03:33

And we cannot act like the world does who despises their presence. Right.

01:03:38

The governments have a responsibility, the church doesn't. I think it was mentioned, Dr. Lawson mentioned recently, he said, could you imagine the first century church picketing the

01:03:49

Roman Caesars outside for their government decisions? It's laughable. The government has a responsibility to protect its citizens, to uphold the law, etc.

01:03:58

That's the government's business. What is the church's call? To flood the borders, to go to the ends of the earth, to preach to every creature the gospel.

01:04:10

If they come to us as our neighbors because our government's decided that, we're going to preach the gospel.

01:04:17

If a wall's put up to bar us from them because the government's decided that, then we will go beyond those walls to preach the gospel.

01:04:28

The church's focus needs to remain the same. We are not a political organization.

01:04:34

We are heralds, ambassadors of Christ for the gospel. What's sad to see is this, maybe this is a little off,

01:04:43

I'm not sure. We as a country, many Christians have in their library, in one room, more theology and more truth than entire nations have.

01:04:56

And with $500 in your pocket, you can purchase a ticket right now on United Airlines and be in that country eight hours from now and bring that truth.

01:05:07

Why aren't we there? Because we've become insulated and isolated and we want our comfort.

01:05:15

The government's going to make its decisions one way or the other. Our task as Christians is to preach the life transforming gospel of Jesus Christ, which will flip this world upside down.

01:05:30

And so our focus needs to be maintained upon the gospel and gospel preaching, because that's what transforms societies, not picketing the government.

01:05:41

Amen. Well, I'd like you both to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today before the program is over.

01:05:48

And we'll start, Ginger, with you, if you have anything finally you have to share with our listeners. Hmm. I'd say for those, especially those who have grown up in a

01:05:57

Christian home or parents of kids, who have kids, you know, they're raising in a Christian home,

01:06:03

I think that it's vitally important for them to talk to their kids, even about where they stand with the

01:06:10

Lord and be very open about that. I think it can be, I think the enemy can use anything.

01:06:16

And I think the pride that I had struggled with for so many years in salvation, thinking, okay,

01:06:22

I'm saved. But then I, you know, I knew it wasn't, but I was too ashamed to talk about it. I think even just being open about this and making sure that you're diligent to continue to have family devotions and ultimately praying for your kids, praying that the

01:06:37

Lord would save them. I think that that's probably the most important thing that I would just highly encourage parents to do.

01:06:46

Just continue to raise your kids in fear of the Lord and just be open in communication with them.

01:06:53

Amen. And Jeremy? Yeah, I think we've covered a lot of topics, but the thing that stands out to me is submitting to Christ and His Word.

01:07:06

Being a Christ -centered Christian who's not tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine, but being

01:07:13

Christians who know our source of life. We know the promises upon which we stand.

01:07:21

It's what drew me to Ginger. It's what attracted me to her. It's the kind of preacher and pastor

01:07:27

I want to be. It's the kind of Christian I want to be. And looking and abiding to in, looking to abiding in Jesus Christ, establishing yourself in the person of Christ, walking with Christ through His Word.

01:07:42

I think we need to be in a day of biblical illiteracy. Even amongst professing

01:07:47

Christians, we need to be a Bible - centered people, thus becoming a Christ -centered people, a

01:07:53

God -centered people. And so I would commend whoever's listening to be a biblical

01:08:02

Christian who knows, studies, loves, lives in the Word of God. Amen. And I'd like you to give our listeners the contact information for Grace Community Church of Laredo, Texas.

01:08:13

Yeah, I think the best way to contact us, we do have a Facebook page, gcc .laredo is the link to the Facebook page.

01:08:19

You can also look us up on YouTube, youtube .com forward slash gcclaredo, or shoot us an email, gcclaredo at gmail .com.

01:08:31

And those messages are often forwarded to myself if there's questions, so gcclaredo at gmail .com.

01:08:39

It just dawned on me, I remembered now, that I was the announcer for your radio program. Yeah.

01:08:45

It's not a currently airing program. You have an iconic presence on the radio, and so I was privileged to have you introduce that.

01:08:53

You know, I thought about, we're trying to start a podcast, and so I think that intro might get, you know, the dust taken off of it and put back to use.

01:09:02

And one last thing that I think you should clarify is that I announced earlier at the very beginning of the program that your mom runs the swan ministry, and it occurred to me as we were talking, people are going to think that your mother is rescuing swans from oil slicks and washing them with Dawn dishwashing liquid.

01:09:22

That has nothing to do with your mother's swan ministry. It has to do with the children of prison inmates.

01:09:29

My mother's non -profit organization, Swan, is something that Ginger and I are very passionate about and have sought to speak out about and raise awareness for.

01:09:37

It stands for Scaling Walls, a note at a time, and it is a music mentoring program for children whose parents are incarcerated.

01:09:45

Nothing like it in the country. Children whose parents have been or are currently in jail are 75 percent more likely to end up in prison themselves.

01:09:55

The numbers, the statistics are staggering. The millions of dollars spent to incarcerate children, phenomenal.

01:10:03

And to see the role that music plays in a child's development and the success of those who've studied music is staggering as well.

01:10:11

It's a solution that's novel, but it's a solution surprisingly not thought of before. And Swan is the only non -profit in that market seeking to help children through music.

01:10:24

swan4kids .org. My wife and I are very passionate about it. I'm so glad you remembered the website because some people don't even know their own website.

01:10:31

Right. It's swan4kids .org. Please check it out.

01:10:38

It's a phenomenal ministry. And it is, as we talk about gospel preaching, it's a result of a woman who's been gripped by the reality that Jesus Christ died for her, that she could die to herself and live like Christ.

01:10:52

Swan is a direct result of the gospel taking hold of my mother's heart and urging her to do something for her neighbor.

01:11:01

Amen. And please remind your parents that they have an open invitation, both of them, to be back on my program.

01:11:08

I will. And I would love to interview your parents or any of your siblings that you care to introduce to me.

01:11:14

And it's been such a joy to interview you both. I had a blast doing this.

01:11:20

I look forward to return visits in the future and many return visits if you are willing.

01:11:25

Well, we love you, Chris. And yeah, we greatly appreciate you and your ministry. Oh, thank you very much. God bless.

01:11:32

We're going to a station break right now. And God willing, we'll be returning with another interview right after these messages from our sponsors.

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01:21:01

Well, we are now back to our program. We are airing interviews that I conducted on -site at the

01:21:11

G3 conference. And this was a wonderful conference. I thank God that Josh Bice and the folks at Praise Mill Baptist Church in Douglasville, Georgia enabled me to have an exhibitors booth on -site there at the

01:21:29

Georgia International Convention Center. And it was so, it was a mind -blowing experience meeting so many people, dozens of people, for the very first time who said to me that they love this program, that they listen to it all the time.

01:21:44

And I, of course, got to see some old friends that I have not seen in years, sometimes decades.

01:21:50

I got to meet people that I had only known by hearing their voice over their phone, but had never met in person.

01:21:58

So it was a really rich experience for me and there's going to be some exciting news developing that we will let you know about,

01:22:05

God willing, in the near future that have come about, or that has come about from me being present at the last

01:22:13

G3 conference. But right now we're going to air an on -site interview that I had with a remarkable young man,

01:22:21

Dwayne Atkinson. He hosts a podcast called

01:22:27

The Bar, B -A -R, which stands for Biblical and Reformed.

01:22:33

And he was a real breath of fresh air, this brother. I'm excited that he has informed me that I was a inspiration.

01:22:44

I was an inspiration, I should say, to be grammatically correct. I was an inspiration to him to start his own podcast.

01:22:53

He had been listening to me for years and eventually launched his own podcast following my lead, and I was really blown away by that.

01:23:02

Very honored and felt very privileged to know that to be the case. But here is my interview with Dwayne Atkinson from The Bar podcast,

01:23:14

Biblical and Reformed. I hope that you enjoy the interview. This is

01:23:20

Chris Sorensen on -site again here at the G3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia, and I'm delighted to have for the very first time ever on Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio, Dwayne Atkinson.

01:23:32

And he hosts a podcast called The Bar, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio, Dwayne Atkinson.

01:23:41

Thank you, sir. Definitely glad to be here. And one thing that caught my attention when

01:23:46

I first bumped into you here at the G3 conference is that you said that Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio was some kind of a motivation to you to start

01:23:53

The Bar, and it blessed me because I don't think I've had a positive influence on anybody's life that I'm aware of.

01:24:01

Yes, sir. Iron Sherpa and Zion has been in the podcast. Well, it's been in the game for a long time, and when

01:24:10

I started searching for resources and podcasts, you start searching reform podcasts and things like that, and it leads down these rabbit holes.

01:24:21

And I found Iron Sherpa and Zion and subscribed and been listening, and it was those things that helped me in my walk, and those things inspired me to want to do the same thing.

01:24:33

Praise God. Well, like I typically do when I interview somebody for the very first time, I like to get an idea and have our listeners get an idea of the religious atmosphere of your youth, the kind of religion, if any, in your household growing up as a child, and how our sovereign

01:24:52

Lord got a hold of you and saved you, and also how you eventually came to embrace the reform faith.

01:24:59

Nice. I was glad to do that. Well, my parents were both saved, or are both saved.

01:25:05

I grew up in a missionary Baptist home. You know, they were like, my mom was a single, the only child, and my dad was number seven of 15.

01:25:17

Wow. And, you know, there's two different dynamics, and they both were the only two people in their, you know, their families that were saved.

01:25:25

So, like, we would go different places, and they're like, well, to save people coming, y 'all put the alcohol away, y 'all stop cussing, you know.

01:25:33

So, I had that background, very religious, church every

01:25:40

Sunday. I ended up playing the drums, so I was a drummer at the church. I was not saved, you know.

01:25:47

I did the whole baptism to join the church and all of that. Were your parents saved?

01:25:53

I mean, sometimes, like, for instance, the South is known as the Bible Belt, and there's a cultural

01:25:59

Christianity. Right, right, right. Yeah, and I talk about that a lot. Yeah, everybody, I say, everybody's saved in the South, you know.

01:26:04

But, no, they were actually converted Bible -believing Christians. Yeah, they taught us

01:26:11

Bible, me and my sister. You know, definitely would probably, looking back, probably should have more in -house worship or, you know,

01:26:22

Bible study in the house. But, you know, they did the best they can with what they knew. So, yeah, like I said,

01:26:28

I was a drummer in the church, very active, you know, with the youth and all of that, but I was not saved.

01:26:35

Did you know that you weren't saved? I did, I did. I was aware, but, you know, in that culture, you know, if you can play the part, you know, nobody question it, you know.

01:26:44

They'll let you keep riding. And so, in the midst of that, you know, the whole, you know, being young and promiscuous and all of that, and involved with different females, and my whole thing,

01:26:58

I was a player. That was my whole, you know, the drummer, you know, he's a player, you know, athlete. And I had pride in being able to,

01:27:06

I guess, court multiple women, where I had pride in that. And the old -school three -way got me in trouble.

01:27:13

You remember when you called somebody on three -way? So, I got called on three -way by two girls, and it crushed my pride so much that I literally was at my mom's house.

01:27:25

I rode off the bed onto my knees. I said, Lord, I'm messing up my life, you know, please, you know, help me, you know, because I didn't even,

01:27:33

I was in a place where I just, I feel like I was at rock bottom. And from that day, you know,

01:27:38

I started, you know, trying to follow Christ, and, you know, just off of that.

01:27:44

That was obviously a divine miracle, because typically, a player wouldn't really care that much if he got caught.

01:27:53

Yeah, you know, my value of the game was being so slick that I'd never get caught, you know.

01:27:59

I did it for, but it was, and that was a turning point for me. But here's the weird thing, you know,

01:28:06

I started getting active in my church, and I was like, man, I want so much, you know, so much God, so much more, and I ended up going into the charismatic circle, and moved to South Carolina, met my wife, moved to South Carolina, went to probably one of the biggest churches in South Carolina.

01:28:21

The pastor's on, you know, TBN, and met a bunch of well -known guys, and really dove real deep into, you know, speaking in tongues, laying hands.

01:28:31

I was in that world, and I started seeing inconsistencies. I started hearing them say, declare, decree, but I wasn't seeing things happen, and I was like, okay, this gotta be, you know.

01:28:43

So this was, was this like a word of faith? It was. It was a word of faith charismatic. I think they were actually connected with the

01:28:49

Pentecostal, and like I said, they were very, very charismatic, very, you know, name it, claim it group, and I was tired of saying, you know,

01:28:59

I was tired of declaring and decreeing and not saying, you know, pretty much, man. And so that actually led me to, like, just start researching things, and just like, okay, like, is this, you know, he says this, but I'm looking at a

01:29:12

Bible, and I don't see it like that, you know, and on that journey, I actually, at one of my, at my job,

01:29:20

I worked for the city of Greenville at a point, and one of my co -workers happened to be a Presbyterian pastor, and so I was doing the whole, you know, researching

01:29:29

YouTube, you know, what I call research YouTube, and ran across Calvinism and Arminianism, and I was listening to, you know, that whole thing, and I was like,

01:29:38

I didn't even know that was a thing, like, you know, you know, because somebody asked me, like, you Arminian?

01:29:43

I was like, no, I'm Christian, you know, so I mentioned that to the

01:29:49

Presbyterian pastor, and he was like, hey, come to my office every day at lunchtime, and we'll walk through the

01:29:55

Westman's Confession, and we did that. We literally, I came to his office every day, lunchtime, he went through every line, he would stop, as we'll talk about it, we'll look up the scripture references, which are thousands of them, and he walked me through it, man, when it was over,

01:30:11

I was like, man, yeah, that's awesome, I agree with all that, except the baptism part, I think we need to work on that, but other than that, you know,

01:30:19

I was sold, and I was like, okay, I'm a Calvinist, I understand the five points, you know, we walk through the Doctrine of Grace, and that's actually how

01:30:26

I got here, and in that, he suggested podcasts, and things like that to listen to, to help me with my growth.

01:30:34

Oh, praise God, and so you remained a Baptist? Yes, I did. Oh, thank God. Yes, I did,

01:30:39

I am saved. I'm to be a Reformed Baptist. Obviously, I say that somewhat tongue -in -cheek, because I do have many friends who are

01:30:47

Presbyterians, and I may have interviewed more Presbyterians on my show than I have Baptists, because just because Presbyterians seem to write more, or at least they get published more, but that is interesting.

01:31:02

So, tell us about The Bar, exactly what you do on The Bar. Yeah, The Bar podcast stands for Biblical and Reformed, and you know, we started the podcast about two years ago, and what

01:31:14

I wanted to do was bring a podcast that was really laid back, conversational, feel like we're in a living room, and I wanted to ask questions that guests normally don't get asked.

01:31:25

Like, I asked them what kind of music they like, and things like that, and God has shown us a whole lot of favor, and we've had

01:31:32

Dr. Al Mohler on, Mark Dever, and I don't know how, you know, people ask me, how do you get all these great guests?

01:31:40

I had no idea. I sent an email, and you know, they say yes, or no, or whatever, and that's it, man, and so that's kind of the way

01:31:48

I've been doing it, and I had Al Mohler on, and I said, you know, because I knew he liked to fish. I was like, man, what's your favorite lure?

01:31:54

You know, ask questions like that, something that people don't normally see, either on a platform or in a lecture, and it's very laid back, and then

01:32:03

I also, with The Bar podcast, we developed a network of other shows. So, we also have what we call

01:32:09

Bars, which stands for Biblical and Reformed Spitters. This is for the rappers that are

01:32:15

Reformed, and we have a show just for them, Terrence Barlow. He hosts that show, which is under The Bar Network, and then we also have a show called

01:32:23

Just Thinking by Daryl Harrison and Virgil Walker, and Daryl Harrison is a fantastic blogger.

01:32:31

Like, he definitely is a great blogger. He covers... Eric, my webmaster, is shaking his head.

01:32:37

You know Daryl? Yeah, Daryl's... Daryl is very... When I tell you, he writes very well, and I always mess with him because I said,

01:32:45

Daryl, you just... You're writing what we're thinking. You just say it better than everybody else, you know? So, Daryl and Virgil have a show called

01:32:53

Just Thinking, and they actually tackle current events, social issues from a biblical perspective, you know?

01:33:00

It's not racial -driven. Like, we're gospel first, you know? We put that first, and we also have another show under The Bar Podcast Network called

01:33:12

KaleoScope, and this is actually ladies that come from the same perspective when it comes to current events and social issues.

01:33:18

Oh, praise God. Now, there has been lately... I don't know how familiar you are with a controversy that's going on.

01:33:27

There are some folks who, especially in light of the recent celebration of Martin Luther King Jr.

01:33:38

Day, there are some folks who think that we should not be concerned much at all about his theology and only revere him as a great

01:33:47

Christian hero. And there are others that would say, well, we should revere him as some kind of a hero, like an

01:33:53

American hero, because of the sacrifice he actually laid down his life, literally, for a good and just cause, for racial equality.

01:34:02

But we have to be concerned about the theology that he embraced. We can't just overlook it. And there's really some wounded feelings and some anger brewing up over this, even amongst fellow

01:34:15

Reformed brethren. Do you have your own position on this? Yeah, man. Actually, just thinking, today's show is about that.

01:34:23

They recorded it on Dr. Martin Luther King's birthday, and we come from the perspective of theology matters.

01:34:31

You can't overlook that. What I find ironic is the same guys that say, don't worry about that, revere him, celebrate him anyway, are the same guys that are trying to say everything

01:34:43

John Owen wrote is bad because he had slaves. You can't do that. You can't say, let's worry about it here and not worry about it there.

01:34:51

That's inconsistent. And we're called to be consistent. We're called to look at things in proper context.

01:34:57

And so we, the bar, we come at it from the perspective of, you know, you may have done great things for America, but from what we read in your manuscripts and things of that nature, we can't honestly say that you're a

01:35:10

Christian because he questioned the deity of Christ. That's right. So we can't, I will not say he's a great

01:35:17

Christian hero. Nobody from my account would say that, you know, he may, you know, he did some great things, definitely not taking anything away from that respect for that.

01:35:26

But what I think happens in the black community because we feel like we don't have enough heroes.

01:35:34

When someone tried to touch it, we get very offensive. You know, like I always make the joke, just like,

01:35:41

I think it's four or five people you can't talk bad about as T .D. Jakes, Barack Obama, Oprah Winfrey, and Tyler Perry.

01:35:48

If you talk bad about those four people in the black community, yeah, they will. The one that surprised me was

01:35:54

Tyler Perry because even Spike Lee mocks Tyler Perry. Well, the thing about it is, you know, that's on that level.

01:36:01

But ground level, if you say, because I think he's trash, you know, he's a cross dresser. I don't,

01:36:06

I have no, I don't think he's really a cross dresser. Well, I mean, if you do it for the part,

01:36:11

I mean, come on. All right. Okay. He's acting out the sin. I mean, I understand.

01:36:17

Yeah, no. So, yeah, I mean, and if I say that publicly, oh, I'm bad.

01:36:23

I'm, you know, I'm judging whatever. So I think with that mentality, I think that's actually what we're looking at here and why these people are trying to justify, you know,

01:36:32

Dr. King. And then they're going to say that we're attacking them. You know, we're trying to nitpick. No, that's not the case.

01:36:39

We see the obvious. This isn't an audio clip that somebody has manipulate.

01:36:44

We see writings of him, you know, saying these things and the ology does matter.

01:36:50

Amen. Well, in fairness to Dr. King, and this is still a question mark, but my guest not long ago,

01:37:00

Dr. Micah Edmondson, I don't know if you know him. He's a African -American Orthodox Presbyterian, and he wrote a biography of Dr.

01:37:08

King. And I interviewed him and I brought up much of what I said to you, perhaps even at greater length and more detail.

01:37:17

And he agreed with me. But he he believes that we have evidence and he couldn't say it's conclusive or definitive, but he he has a hope and a belief that Dr.

01:37:34

King could have been truly converted and become born again at a crisis moment in his activism for civil rights when he was about to give up the civil rights movement because of all the pressure he was facing and the obstacles.

01:37:50

And he found that the liberal theology of his training in seminary had no answer, had no true savior or deity to cry out to, to rescue him.

01:38:03

And he did that. And his father apparently was more of a strict fundamentalist type of a

01:38:10

Baptist pastor who was apparently I haven't studied his father in any great depth, but apparently he was biblically

01:38:21

Orthodox and he invited his son back to the church to teach there. And according to Dr.

01:38:27

Micah Edmondson, he did not think his father would have done that just because it was his son. He thinks that his father did it because he recognized some kind of transformation.

01:38:36

Right, right. And kind of speaking on that, you know, that's another point that it makes that Dr. King applied to some biblically sound colleges.

01:38:43

But because of the segregation that he couldn't get in, that may be the case. I'm not knocking that.

01:38:49

I just, you know, I just go off what we see in the writing and what we understand. And I'm not afraid to talk bad about, you know, these so -called, you know, heroes.

01:39:00

I would not build an idol out of them. And like I said, that could very well be the case, but you know,

01:39:07

I'm not scared to say it. Amen. Another controversy is you are no doubt aware you were talking about the spitting.

01:39:15

There's all kinds of opinions on that. Like, for instance, I'll give you my personal opinion.

01:39:22

I think that there are incredibly gifted Christian rappers.

01:39:27

In fact, they're incredibly gifted secular rappers. Most of them I do not find gifted at all.

01:39:33

But I think that there are some that are very gifted and there are Christians that are very gifted.

01:39:40

And the thing that I, that offends me most about the rap or the hip hop culture is not necessarily the rapping itself.

01:39:50

It's the imagery of the thug, of the, of, you know, the scriptures say that one of the things that God hates is a haughty look.

01:40:01

And hip hop culture seems to incarnate that. That is like the focal prime thing about hip hop is the haughty look.

01:40:14

And much of the music is just bragging about how you are superior in all multiple ways of life to anybody else, whether it's rapping or your sex life or whatever it is.

01:40:27

And when sometimes, not all the time, when Christians adopt hip hop or rap or spitting to use it as an evangelistic tool for Christianity, sometimes they even, unfortunately,

01:40:43

I think, carry over the imagery of the, of the arrogant haughtiness, vanity, pride, greed.

01:40:54

Right. You know, the whole image of greed, you know, what is your thought about what I? Well, I mean, you just identified, you know, sin, sin nature.

01:41:03

And what you're seeing is people in sin that never had anything finally get something or the appearance of having something and they put it on their neck, on their teeth, in their ears, you know, so that's, that's the, that's what you're seeing.

01:41:20

And as far as it crossing over into Christian, Christian rap within the culture, or I'll say subculture of hip hop, you know, it comes with what we call swag, which is a way of, you know, dress feel.

01:41:38

And sometimes that may be, maybe, I guess, may cross over into Christianity.

01:41:45

But when they're truly repentant, truly, you know, delivered, you know, they will, they, they get an understanding of, it's not about self.

01:41:53

And you'll see, like you said, like you said, there's some, the same, some are the ones that understand that, you know, it's not about me.

01:42:01

You know, it's about Christ. One of my favorite artists is named plain James. I mean, plain, like, you know, plain, nothing special about me,

01:42:09

James and, you know, what he wear at his concert, a t -shirt and jeans, you know, so it's just, it's a sin nature thing.

01:42:16

And I think whenever, you know, we make the crossover, some people just carry that along for relevance, not knowing that it's not necessary, you know, to be relevant as long as your content is constant with scripture.

01:42:29

But, you know, everybody don't get that point. And as far as there are some, I have friends who are fundamentalist

01:42:36

Baptists. And one of the things that they hate about, and they will broad brush, of course, as they very often do with everything.

01:42:45

Right. They will broad brush. No way. They will broad brush Calvinism to include new

01:42:53

Calvinism, which would also, some of the new Calvinists are very welcoming of rap music.

01:43:00

And the thing that they would also accuse, by virtue of that, is that we who are reformed, or those who are new

01:43:12

Calvinists, are utilizing rap or hip -hop in a worship service.

01:43:18

Now, I happen to, when I hear good Christian rap that I have heard on an occasion that I've enjoyed,

01:43:25

I'm actually, my mind sometimes is blown away by the depth of some of the theology and the ability of some of these guys to very quickly draw out, by memory, these long, very deep theological thoughts.

01:43:43

Yes. And powerful thoughts. I believe that I can enjoy that, but to be perfectly honest, if that was happening in my worship service, it would trouble me, just as some music that I might enjoy outside of a worship service that is more culturally connected with white people, doesn't necessarily, if I enjoy it outside of church,

01:44:03

I want it to be going on in a worship service. And basically, I'm also somewhat unique in the sense that I am a very strong proponent of congregational worship, where the congregation is all singing and not necessarily being entertained.

01:44:18

But anyway, do you have any thoughts on that? Yeah, and I have, I guess, a weird perspective, because when

01:44:24

I was in the Pentecostal Charismatic Church, we had laser beams and pyros and rappers and dancers, so I actually find it refreshing to be in more of a congregational

01:44:39

B3 heaven and that's it. I find that refreshing. Christian hip -hop has its place, and I don't agree that it should be part of the service, just for, you know, just not saying the genre is wrong, but just,

01:44:57

I think, the method, you know, that is presented, you know, like I said, is more or less entertainment, you know, so I think with it being in that nature, that, you know,

01:45:09

I wouldn't want it in my service, you know, but I definitely enjoy it.

01:45:14

I mean, I love to listen to guys like Shaolin and Trip Lee that have really thick, you know, really sound theology in their lyrics, but I'm, you know, believe it or not, man, when you get laser beams and pyros for, you know, four or five years, you cherish and love congregational singing, and it makes your heart glad.

01:45:35

Like, that's one thing I love about worship, is when we're all involved, and Voices United, and we're all singing, and, you know, it just brings joy to you to release that worship to the

01:45:47

Father, you know, and when somebody's rapping, you just kind of watch it, you know, unless you know all the words, you know, and you can say it with them, but, you know, that's pretty much it.

01:45:55

Right. Do you think that there has developed in our culture a hypersensitivity over the issue of racism, where you have people constantly accusing others of racism, which actually is a,

01:46:14

I think, a betrayal of those who are truly victims of racism, and you have, unfortunately, you have white people who are so terrified of saying something offensive that you really don't have genuine conversations.

01:46:33

These white folks are having conversations with their black friends, black neighbors, black brothers and sisters from church, and their conversations are so artificial because they're afraid.

01:46:44

What am I going to say? I'm going to say something wrong that's going to be offensive, and they're tiptoeing around things, and sometimes it's even comical to hear conversations because those that are the most fearful of saying something racist often say things that are backhanded compliments and even sound racist anyway.

01:47:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you think that there is a hypersensitivity about that? There is definitely a hypersensitivity about that, you know.

01:47:10

Again, I praise my camp, man, because, you know, we're like the only ones that have a voice in media that's saying this, you know.

01:47:18

There has been a super push in the social justice era or time or whatever, and it's really sensitive, you know, with the election of the new president, and then

01:47:30

I think the lead -in, you know, different police shootings or whatever, and I think it's put people in a place where, like you said, they're very uncomfortable, and then what black people are asking for, and they're not going to like this, but we say it all the time on the bar and on Just Thinking, but what they're asking for is what we're going to get in glory, you know.

01:47:51

The reconciliation is going to happen in glory, you know. The redemption is going to happen in glory.

01:47:57

We're not going to get that. This is a fallen world, you know. Racism is a sin. It's going to be here.

01:48:04

I don't expect it to, you know, fall away just because we all line up and close down 85.

01:48:11

That's not going to do it, you know. Salvation, the gospel is the only thing to change people. You can't reconcile a race.

01:48:19

That's, you know, that's your color. That has nothing to do with anything. And in reality, we're one race. Exactly.

01:48:24

There's no such thing as a race. Yeah, that's it. Different shades of brown. Exactly, exactly. So, yeah, man, it's sad, you know, when we observe it, and I really feel bad for white brothers that, you know, they come to us all the time like, man,

01:48:40

I wish I could say what you guys are saying. Like, you know, you're saying the truth. I wish I could say it. We're like, say it. Like, don't be scared.

01:48:46

Then it was like, you know, I don't want to be called a race. I was like, well, they call us Uncle Tom's and whatever. We don't care, you know.

01:48:53

If it's not true, man, it's all good, you know, because it really is pathetic, man, when you think about it.

01:49:00

When you see, you know, when you see the blogs that we talk about, and you see the, you know, you know, podcasts and people saying they're scared to, they don't know, they don't feel safe to worship with white people.

01:49:11

Like, when you say a comment like that, are you serious? Like. And I don't even believe that. Exactly, exactly.

01:49:17

Like, when that came out, I was like, really? Come on, man. I cannot believe you just said that.

01:49:23

Like, and the sad part, he was just on my show. Like, I almost deleted it just because he, yeah, he was just on my show right before the election, but we're not going to talk about that.

01:49:31

Don't listen to that show, listen to that show. But anyway, but I totally agree with you.

01:49:38

I definitely, I encourage any white brother listening, don't be afraid, man.

01:49:44

A genuine, hearty conversation that comes from the heart, you know, we have to have that.

01:49:52

And don't think you got to fix anything, you know. Like I said, it's, you didn't enslave anybody.

01:49:59

Like, you just got up and went to work. You didn't do anything. You know, what happened in the past? Yes, it happened in the past.

01:50:05

We recognize it as sin, whatever. Get over it, you know. The bar, we're not upset about slavery.

01:50:12

We know it was an injustice at that time, but it does not carry over into our day -to -day life. You know, when it comes to racism and justice, give me a real instance.

01:50:22

Show me where somebody is being, showing, they're being racist or injustice is being shown.

01:50:27

Show me that. I will stand behind you. I'll post about it, talk about it. But if you just give me this everything, white privilege, whatever,

01:50:37

I'm just going to say, okay. And we're going to keep talking on something else at the bar, man, because we don't roll like that.

01:50:43

That's not how we roll. Yes. The, when I think about how whites as a race, and of course, as I already said, that's not even a real thing, but the way that we commonly use that in the vernacular of our day, in fact, for centuries we have, but that all people with, who are deprived of melanin content in our skin, that we are to have some kind of guilt over the sin of racism.

01:51:15

My, my ancestors on my mother's side immigrated from Poland in the 20th century.

01:51:21

They never owned slaves. My father's side, well, at least on his father's side, they came from Norway.

01:51:29

So the, I know that the Vikings had slaves, but they were all white. I don't,

01:51:36

I don't think that I requires that I should have. Now you're in the clear, man. And of course,

01:51:46

I believe that the sin, this is another thing that gets my ire that you even hear from some surprisingly conservative

01:51:58

African -Americans or black folks who are theologically conservative, who don't believe that a black person can genuinely be accused of racism.

01:52:10

And that is bizarre to me because first of all, racism is a sin.

01:52:15

And as my, my dear friend, who is now with the Lord for eternity, Dr. Robert J. Cameron used to say, racism is a sin problem, not a skin problem.

01:52:26

And in fact, I mentioned this to somebody else that I interviewed, but Dr.

01:52:32

Cameron wrote a book, which you could still get on Amazon called The Last Pew on the

01:52:38

Left, America's Lost Potential. It was a book about racism coming from a conservative black pastor who is also reformed.

01:52:47

And he submitted the manuscripts to a very major Christian publisher, one of the largest ones.

01:52:54

And they sent him a rejection letter and they said, dear Dr. Cameron, your manuscript was the most powerful and the best by far unsolicited manuscript we've ever received, but we do not feel comfortable publishing your book because you also criticize the black community for the sin of racism, just as you criticize the whites.

01:53:20

So therefore we cannot publish your book. Wow. I mean, that's really outlandish.

01:53:25

I mean, isn't that in and of itself racism? It is. It is. Yeah. I mean, and I've even heard the term of reverse racism on, you know,

01:53:33

I'm like, what? No, no, no. Racism is racism. It's a sin. And honestly, you know, and I know where it comes from.

01:53:42

You know, my grandmother, I can honestly say my grandma was probably racist just to be just straight up and honest.

01:53:48

Like, you know, like just because of the whole, you know, the era she grew up in, where they were, they were,

01:53:56

I guess, experienced racism. They would actually do it on the opposite side, except they just didn't have as much,

01:54:03

I guess, clout or power where it was noticed. Like it was like, you know, any like, and she still say this to this day, like,

01:54:12

I love my grandma, love her to death. But like she said, any, cause I'm in a job now where I can hire people. And she said, baby, make sure you look out for the black people, you know?

01:54:23

And that's sweet. I get it. You know, I get it because, you know, at the time nobody was doing it for them, so they had to do it for themselves.

01:54:30

But that's just a picture of, you know, it's race. I mean, pure as it is, it's racism. And I think that it needs to be recognized.

01:54:39

And I think it's just not. Yes. The excuse or the defense of that point of view has been, as far as I've heard it most often, is that you cannot be guilty of bigotry if you are a persecuted minority that does not carry political clout or power or so on.

01:55:02

And the thing that's ironic about that, especially if you're a Christian and you make that claim, or if you profess to be a

01:55:08

Christian and you make that claim, you obviously are very ignorant of the Judaizers in the

01:55:15

New Testament who had a hatred towards Gentiles.

01:55:20

And the Jews were a persecuted minority. And yet the only time you really see racism addressed in the

01:55:28

New Testament is the Jews being rebuked by Paul for being bigoted towards the

01:55:38

Gentiles, even though the Jews were the persecuted minority. Right, right.

01:55:43

So obviously you can't have a biblical worldview if you have that understanding. Exactly, exactly. And it's great that you brought up that point because Darrell talks about this a lot in his blog.

01:55:54

You know, like I said, they were persecuted Jews and it was not a chapter dedicated to how can we reconcile the

01:56:02

Jewish community and this Roman Empire. There was no, you know, it was nothing like totally dedicated to that.

01:56:08

So how are you biblically making a claim that this needs to be at the forefront and you need to add this to the gospel, just as gospel or whatever.

01:56:16

So that's definitely, it's great that you brought that up. Well, I want you to take about five minutes to unburden your heart and just summarize what you want my listeners, our listeners right now, to most have etched in their hearts and minds before they leave this program.

01:56:33

Wow. First, man, I want to thank you for the opportunity. Definitely a pleasure and honor. And I can't wait to hear myself on your channel.

01:56:41

But to your listeners, man, I just want to encourage them, man, to be brave. Today, we live in a culture where everybody, you know, everything's sensitive.

01:56:50

Everything's, you know, like you can't say this, you can't do that. Be brave. Be brave, not only for, you know, your personal views and where you stand when it comes to worldview, but be brave when it comes to the gospel.

01:57:03

At the end of the day, that's all that matters. And no matter what the situation, whether it's racial, whether it's justice, whether it's, you know, family, the gospel is, we always got to point back to the gospel because that's the only thing that can change hearts.

01:57:18

That's the only thing that can change minds. That's the only thing that can change communities. So just at the end of the day, be brave and be bold and focus on the gospel.

01:57:27

Amen. Now you got to tell our listeners how they can listen to The Bar. Yes, sir. You can find The Bar at thebarpodcast .com.

01:57:35

We're also on Facebook. Just search The Bar Podcast. Also on Twitter and Instagram, The Bar underscore podcast.

01:57:42

And on your favorite podcast catcher, just search The Bar, spelling out b .a .r .podcast.

01:57:49

And we're here every Tuesday. Bars come out on Thursday and Just Thinking comes out on Friday.

01:57:56

Well, praise God. Well, I am looking forward to having you back on the program in the future. Yes, sir. And hopefully many times in the future.

01:58:03

And I thank you. And amidst this hectic atmosphere, the G3 conference,

01:58:08

I thank you for taking time to be on Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio. Good deal. We got to have you on ours as well. I would love that.

01:58:14

Thank you, brother. God bless you. You too. Wow, I was blown away by that wonderful interview with Dwayne Atkinson.

01:58:22

And as I said to him, I look forward to having many more interviews with him, God willing, in the future.

01:58:28

Hope you enjoyed the interviews we played today. We will be playing more in the future, God willing. I hope you all have a great weekend, a very safe and blessed weekend and Lord's Day.

01:58:39

And I hope that you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater