Can Christians Struggle with Homosexuality?

Revealed Apologetics

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Welcome back to another episode of Revealed Apologetics. I'm your host Eli Ayala and today we are going to be having

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Dr. Braxton Hunter on to talk about a super duper important topic, a topic that's been covered by a lot of people from different angles.

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Of course, those who have other apologetics YouTube channels cover this topic all the time.

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Perhaps I'm late to the game to discuss this. I don't normally discuss it on a public format like this, but I have had many conversations with folks about this topic.

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But I'm excited to have Braxton Hunter on because he's a sharp guy and he has some pretty good things to say on this topic and we'll hear a little bit of his background experience in this area.

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So the title of the episode is, Can Christians Struggle with Homosexuality? I guess it kind of sounds like a weird obvious question.

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I mean for me at least it's an obvious yes. But really the purpose of this episode is not so much to answer that question in like a yes or no and to be done with it, but rather to address it from the perspective of suppose you are a

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Christian and you are struggling with same sex attractions. How might you navigate that sort of situation?

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And it's difficult, it's challenging and there are a lot of pressures both from within the family situation, the friend situation, the church situation.

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And so that's what we're going to be talking about today and hopefully Dr. Hunter can,

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I'm not going to be calling him Dr. Hunter the entire time by the way, he's a good friend of mine. So I'm going to revert back to Braxton once I get him on, but hopefully

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Braxton will have some helpful things to say, otherwise we'll end it short and I'll apologize for having him on if he messes it up.

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Totally kidding. But real quick, let me introduce Dr. Braxton Hunter. He is the president of Trinity Bible of the

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College and Theological Seminary, which is, and he can correct me if I'm mistaken here.

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It is a Bible college and seminary that one can take courses online.

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So I think it's completely online and you can take classes and there's a whole bunch of different professors from different perspectives, which

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I very much appreciate who offer classes and you can get degrees there and get your theological education,

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Bible education there. And so I know some of the folks on staff and they're great guys, even the guys

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I may disagree with on certain points, they're still very sharp and have very helpful things to say. And so I would, I would imagine someone would greatly benefit from an education there.

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So you might want to check that out. Once again, that is Trinity College of the Bible and Theological Seminary.

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Braxton Hunter is the president there. He is also a Christian apologist and he's engaged in some pretty awesome debates.

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I think one debate that I think folks should really check out is his debate with Matt Dillahunty, who

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I'm sure folks who are in the apologetics game, those who run in these circles, right, will definitely know who

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Matt Dillahunty is. And from a presuppositionalist perspective, and of course,

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Braxton being a classical apologist, I was leaping for joy as to how wonderful he did. Despite our apologetic methodological differences,

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I think he knocked it out of the park in that discussion. And so I'm really excited to have

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Braxton Hunter on today. Let me bring him on the screen with me and he can share a little bit about his

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YouTube channel and what he does there. And definitely, if you have not heard of, and you probably already have, but if you haven't heard of Trinity Radio, the

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YouTube channel, you definitely want to check out that channel and subscribe. All right. So how's it going,

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Braxton? Thank you so much for making the time to join me, man. Eli, thank you so much for having me on the great

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Revealed Apologetics channel. Oh, stop. I'm joining the ranks of John Walton and Jason Lyle and who knows how many others.

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Okay, very good. Well, I'm glad to have you on, man, because here's one of the reasons why

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I wanted to have you on is the topic. I think you shared with me kind of an experience you had with a friend of yours who had a similar kind of issue with homosexuality and things like that.

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And I didn't want to invite, like, not to say that you're not a scholar. You definitely are very scholarly.

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You're very intelligent. You're really good at what you do, both in teaching and just doing apologetics.

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But because I consider you a friend, I thought that the context of a friendly, organic conversation would benefit people more than if I just had some guy, you know, list a bunch of facts and statistics with respect to this topic.

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So it is a great joy to have you on for that purpose. I'm sure we're going to enjoy this conversation.

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Well, thanks so much. And I just want to say something about you and this channel. It is true that while we differ on apologetic methodology and on maybe on issues related to soteriology, this is a great apologetic resource.

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I mention it on our show at Trinity Radio all the time. And I say that you are the best,

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I think, for people that want to learn how to do presubstantial apologetics, which we teach here at Trinity as well.

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And so it's an honor. And I'll tell you something. I'll bet your audience would agree. Maybe they can let you know in the comments.

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Your interviewing ability and the way you interview people has gotten so good since you started.

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I mean, you are just an excellent interviewer. You know, interviews can be so boring, but you make them exciting and engaging.

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Sure. Well, I very much appreciate that. Someone actually called me the brown Justin Brierley. I was like,

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I'll take it. Justin Brierley is the white Eli Hall.

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How's that? Well, that means a lot. That means a lot to me coming from you.

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And hopefully this interview will not be boring. So real quick, got a quick super chat towards the beginning.

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A former student of mine, Glass Dean Russell, gave a five dollar super chat. Thank you so much.

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He says, hey, Mr. Ayala, we all miss you so much. Send all the blessing and nothing but happiness for you and your family.

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Well, thank you so much, Glass Dean. She was a former student of mine. Excellent student, deep thinker.

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And it was such a blessing to have her as a student. So thank you so much for that, Glass Dean. All right.

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Well, let's jump right into the topic. Now, I'm going to begin by asking the question that was on the thumbnail, and you could answer yes or no, and then we'll take it from there, because really it's just a springboard for getting into a deeper discussion.

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So the title of this episode was Can Christian Struggle with Homosexuality? What do you think?

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Well, I actually hadn't considered a direct answer to the title until you just now asked me. So off the top of my head,

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I would say yes in a number of different ways. First of all, and probably most controversial among Christians is, can a

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Christian struggle with same sex attraction? Now, my answer to that is yes, and we'll get into exactly why that is maybe as we move on.

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I also think it's the case that a Christian can struggle with homosexuality in the sense that they may have a family member or a friend who's dealing with that sort of attraction and is dealing with how am

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I supposed to engage with this as a believer? What am I supposed to say? And in that sense, it's a struggle, even though they're not personally experiencing it.

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We could also say in a much grander sense, the church is struggling with homosexuality, not in the sense that we don't know where we stand on it, although if you listen to what some churches say, it certainly sounds like they don't know where they stand on it, but rather because probably one of the most unappealing aspects of the evangelical church or the

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Christian church, whatever, in America today is our position on human sexuality because it is not at all following the cultural narrative, as you know.

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And so in that sense, the church struggles with homosexuality in that way. But I think probably for what we're doing here, what you're most interested in,

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Eli, is getting to that very personal question of, can a person who is an individual in the community who is a

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Christian or at least is a professing Christian, now let's say who they really are, a born -again,

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Bible -believing, Holy Spirit -filled Christian, can they at times struggle with same -sex attraction?

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And as I say, that's probably the most controversial issue to discuss, but I say yes. Okay, so you have someone who's a

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Christian, Spirit -filled, loves the Lord, and is struggling with same -sex attraction. How do we navigate that?

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Because I would imagine that, introspectively, the person's thinking like, well, wait a minute. I love God. Why am

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I struggling with this? I mean, is it the case that God made me this way? How does one navigate those sorts of things?

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Perhaps a Christian who is not very much familiar with some of the deeper things of Scripture, maybe they know what the

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Bible says about homosexuality, but then they kind of say, well, maybe God made me this way. How would you, or what kind of advice would you give to someone who is asking those sorts of questions introspectively and kind of wondering like, hey, what's going on with how

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I'm feeling? Yeah, well, first of all, let me just say, as we begin this, and this will be a caveat, there are some

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Christians who would not want me to say this the way I'm going to say it. And if you disagree with how I'm stating this, it's your show and you feel free to follow your convictions there,

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Eli. I know you will, but I'm not going to be one of those people that thinks that every time we talk about this issue, we have to apologize and do for things that the church has done in the past.

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Although I will say on this issue that my heart goes out to people who struggle, who are wanting to affirm a

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Bible -believing Christianity and have placed their faith in Christ and yet are struggling with same -sex attraction.

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My heart goes out to anyone who is struggling with same -sex attraction. And that's because, number one,

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I don't know what you're going through. I mean, obviously, I know it in terms of the propositions.

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I understand what's being said, right? But I don't have the experience of having gone through it. I've never experienced same -sex attraction.

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And in fact, the propensities that I have, the desires that I have can be fulfilled in a biblical marriage as I think that God intends.

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And so in a certain sense, people who are struggling with this particular sin issue are facing something that I don't have to face.

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And I just want to say to you listening, if you're someone who is struggling with this or you have a friend who is or a family member or a child,

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I don't know what you're going through. From an experience perspective,

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I don't know what you're going through. You have a unique experience. And so my heart goes out to you that you are struggling with this.

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And while obviously you're going to hear a say in this video that we do believe that homosexual activity is unbiblical and therefore sinful, that doesn't mean that the fact that you might have an inclination means that you're engaging in sin just for having that inclination.

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We can get into that more as we say that to say, while that much is definitely true,

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I don't want to add to your struggle. In one sense, it's going to sound like, of course, you're adding to my struggle.

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You're affirming that what the Bible says about this is true and that it's sinful to engage in homosexual activity.

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And yes, that's right. And I'm not going to apologize for the Bible, but I am going to say, I want you to find in people like me and Eli, someone who loves you, people who care about you, and people who are not trying to be condescending either.

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We've got our own issues. It may not be this particular issue. We've got our own issues and none of us are perfect. Now, to the direct question that you just asked,

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Eli, and I know I'm kind of rambling here, but to the direct question that you just asked, I would say, did

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God make me this way? No. Now, did God create knowing that this might happen to you, that you would end up having these attractions?

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Yes, because God knows all things, past, present, and future. God has what we call omniscience in theology.

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He knows all things. But having said that, we live in a fallen world. If you look at Genesis 3, it talks about what happened in the garden as a result of Adam and Eve.

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However you understand that story, Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree and as a result, creation fell. Then you run to Romans 8.

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It affirms that. The truth about this is the world is not as God would have it to be.

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That doesn't mean God doesn't value you just the same for sins that you might experience or me for sins that I experience and mistakes that I made.

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He loves us all the same. But the reality is this is not the perfect design that God had in the garden.

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The garden was the prototype for perfect creation. It was perfect creation. One day it will be that way again.

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But people are born with all kinds of proclivities, tendencies, temptations.

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While I don't know whether or not – a lot of Christians want to say there's no evidence or the science isn't there to say that people are born with a genetic predisposition to homosexuality.

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I'm not a scientist. I don't know about that. But I'm cautious to say if that does turn out to be the case, it wouldn't surprise me.

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It doesn't mean that God made you that way or that it's okay to engage in those kinds of activities. To sum all up,

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I just want to say on this point that we love you. We care about you. I understand that from your perspective, it may not sound that way.

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It may seem like we're adding more baggage. We do not want to be that to you. We don't want to sound condescending because we've got our own baggage.

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In the end, we live in a fallen world. No, God did not make you this way. This is the result of the sin of man.

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I think that is a lengthy answer that also gives a preamble to the discussion. Sure.

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There are a couple of things that pop in my head that I think perhaps we can speak to someone who's struggling with this and knows the

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Scriptures very well. Passages like that in Romans where it talks about men burning in lust after other men.

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It speaks about this homosexual proclivity as a judgment by God. But what about the person who's like, wait a minute,

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I love the Lord. Yes, there's sin in the world, but I desire to follow

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God. Why am I experiencing this? Is this somehow the wrath of God on my life that I have to deal with this?

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What's going on? How would you navigate that question? What I would say about Romans 1 is a couple of things.

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First of all, this is not the point you were driving at. But I would say that for anyone who wants to make a case, and there are those people who claim that the

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Bible is not condemning of monogamous same -sex relationships like that.

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They want to say those can be healthy relationships. That's not what the Bible is talking about. I think that the

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Romans 1 passage is one of the most difficult ones to deal with because it doesn't specify the nature of the relationship there.

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It specifies the act itself. For men and women. I think that when you come to that passage, the first thing that goes through my mind is if you're struggling with this, it's going to be very easy for you or tempting for you to be drawn to resources that might want to make the

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Bible okay with this. It's not okay. God loves you.

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God cares. But it doesn't mean that it's okay. To that end, just because something can be a hardening or a judgment or something like that for some people, it doesn't mean that every individual person experiences that.

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That's necessarily why they're experiencing that. There would be disagreement probably with some people from certain traditions on that issue.

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Some people die because of a judgment, right? But that doesn't mean that everyone that dies is dying because of a particular judgment on their life.

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I think that might be an important thing to mention there. You're saying that's actually a great point that everyone dies, but the death of every person is not necessarily a judgment.

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A specific judgment. Now, in one sense, it is a judgment because death is a judgment on mankind, but not a specific judgment on their life for something that they did.

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That would be important. One of the person throws up there, okay, so fine. This might not be a specific judgment because I know myself.

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I love the Lord. I want to do what's right, but I'm struggling with this same -sex attraction sort of thing.

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If it's not God's judgment, then what is it? Why am I experiencing this? I can picture someone kind of struggling with it from that perspective.

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How would you speak to that? I think that is a question I would absolutely have if that was my issue. And I think what

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I would say to that is, well, again, I don't think that homosexual or same -sex attraction is a part of God's perfect design, what

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God ultimately wants. And I realize, trust me, I realize how everything I'm saying sounds so offensive to someone who's struggling with this.

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But it doesn't mean that, I mean, look, we're all broken people. Again, we all have our issues.

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None of us. My baldness doesn't reflect God's design, right? But at the same time, I would say that it could be.

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Certainly, God knows that you will experience that. And it may well be that though that is the result of living in a fallen world, it could be that God recognizes this particular person is the type of person that I think will be a person who can handle this particular struggle and live victoriously in me.

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I'm going to interrupt you there. Okay. That's an interesting point you made there. So are you saying that God will allow certain believers to have certain weaknesses and proclivities as a way to, as part of their sanctification and fulfilling a purpose, a broader purpose?

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So, for example, you know, I can say, why am I so addicted? I mean, I love Jesus, but why am

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I so addicted to drugs? That might be one of the things that like, well, because God wants to glorify himself by using someone like me, allow me to go through these struggles and then bring me out and minister to people who have similar struggles.

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Is that the same? Is that something along the lines of what you're saying, but kind of transposing it on the issue of homosexuality?

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Yeah, well, let's, I think a cleaner example would be to take something that is not something that someone necessarily addicted themselves to like drugs or something, but perhaps someone has a propensity for anger issues.

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Now, again, I want to say, anyone that's dealing with homosexuality, I'm not equating homosexuality with other individual sins.

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Okay. So don't think, oh, you're saying I'm like someone who is an alcoholic or something like that. Each sin is a little bit different.

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But the fact is there are some people who were born with a propensity to anger.

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People are more likely to be angry and therefore could be more likely to become violent. God may have allowed that to happen.

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It doesn't reflect God's perfect design, but God may have allowed that to happen because in overcoming that, that is a great demonstration of God's glory in the person's life.

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All right. So, well, that's a very, very interesting practical look at the issue, because, I mean, from a

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Christian perspective, even when we struggle with anything, it doesn't have to be homosexuality or whatever.

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I think it's important. I guess I guess I'm jumping ahead of the discussion, but a piece of advice to give someone is to is to encourage them to see the world in such a way that God has purposes.

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Right. That God can, in other words, seeing the world through the lens of God's spectacle, so to speak.

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Right. Seeing God in everything. So that when I struggle with something as a Christian, I can say, how could I honor

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God in this struggle? How could I honor God in whatever the struggle may be? Is that something you might encourage someone?

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Absolutely. Yes. We should seek to glorify God and we should look where God is at work. Now, again, I don't think that God, I don't again,

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I want to say it this way. I don't think that it's got that what God, the design that God produced for us in the garden originally is reflected in our imperfections.

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But I do think that God can redeem things in our lives or allow those and then redeem them for for his purpose.

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And perhaps it's a moment like this. I can imagine some Christians out there in the in the audience or who might see this later who would say, well, hold on a second.

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I thought that when you got saved, when you became a Christian, that God would just take that off of someone so that a homosexual person, if they still experience same sex attraction.

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Well, then then obviously they're not, you know, in Christ or something. And I think this might be a good moment to address that biblically unless you have a particular outline you want to go with.

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Yeah, no, go for it. Why don't you address that? I think that's an important point. Yeah. So we've talked about one of the biblical passages in the New Testament where Paul addresses homosexuality.

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But I'd like to turn the attention to 1 Corinthians chapter six and verse nine.

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This is another well -known passage that deals with this. And it's again, Paul. And I really want people to listen out now.

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Sometimes people have a tendency to phase out whenever we start reading the Bible. If you're going to phase out, phase out when me and Eli are talking and pay attention when we read the

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Bible. But 1 Corinthians chapter six, verse nine says, or do you not know?

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Okay. So now when I hear that, I'm listening, right? Okay. What do you mean unrighteous? And what do you mean?

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I want to hear the kingdom of God. And it says, do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral.

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Okay. Now there's a lot of heterosexuals who are sexually immoral. Sure. Nor idolaters, nor adulterers.

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That's sexual immorality that can happen among heterosexuals. Sure. Nor homosexuals. Okay. There it is.

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Note, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk or drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

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Such were some of you, Paul says in verse 11, but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the

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Lord Jesus Christ and in the spirit of our God. Now, when I look at that, okay, there's, first of all, it seems obvious when you read that, why some

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Christians will say, hold on a second. If you really got saved, if you really got sanctified, you should never experience same -sex attraction again, because it says right there in verse 11 at the very beginning, such were some of you.

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You used to be a homosexual. You're not now. But hold on just a second. Notice the other things that are listed here.

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It also mentions the sexually immoral, which could be heterosexual, as we say. Adulterers, thieves, greedy, drunkards, verbal abusers, swindlers.

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All right, now let's just take one of those, greedy. All right. Let's say that there's a guy in Corinth and he's greedy.

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And then he encounters Paul or the Corinthian church in general, and he becomes a

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Christian. He is saved. He is gloriously saved. He lays that greediness on the altar.

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However you want to say it, he repents of his sin. He doesn't want to be greedy anymore. Are we to say that this person, now that they are—and again, we could say about that person, as Paul does, such were you.

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You used to be greedy, but now you've been sanctified. You've been justified in all these things. Are we really to say that that person will never again experience a temptation to be greedy?

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Are we going to say about the thief that he'll never— Are we really going to say about the adulterer or the sexually immoral heterosexual person that becomes a

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Christian that they're never again going to be tempted by other women besides their spouse?

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Well, consider the apostle Peter who is clearly saved, but then was corrected for his sin by the apostle

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Paul when he kind of chose sides between the Jews and the Gentiles, right? Why?

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Just because you've been washed doesn't mean you are perfect. We still struggle with sins.

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You might struggle with a particular kind of sin that I don't struggle with or vice versa. So I think that's an excellent point using the example of greedy because it's part of that list.

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We tend to focus on—that's the teacher in you making that good point there. Right, right. And so when you look at homosexuals in that list and you say, okay, if that's true of all these other sins, why do

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I treat homosexuality like it would be different with homosexuality? The temptation for greed, the temptation for drunkenness, the temptation for adultery, the temptation for homosexuality might still be there.

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So then in what sense is a person delivered? In what sense are they sanctified? And we can really say such were you a homosexual or any of the other sins.

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I think the sense in which we can say this is the person who was habitually drunk or a drunkard, that lifestyle has changed.

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He may make a mistake going forward, but that's not his intent because God is doing a work in him.

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He's got the reformer of the Holy Spirit living inside of him, guiding him, and warning him when he's about to make those mistakes.

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So it's a struggle, but it's not his pattern of life. That's right. Okay. And we would say that while he could get all the self -help books in Corinth, and he could listen to Oprah all the time, and he could do all the things to try and reform himself without the

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Holy Spirit, with varying degrees of what, from the earthly perspective, might look like success, nothing does it like Jesus.

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Nothing does it like the Spirit. That changes a man. That does the Romans 12 thing of where you're not conformed to the world, but you're transformed by the renewing of your mind.

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So now I want to be cautious to say that I have known people, and I believe it is the case because God can do it if he wants to, that God could supernaturally deliver someone from even the temptation such that now they are heterosexual.

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What I can't do is guarantee that that will happen for any particular person because I think based on what we have from Paul, we don't have that guarantee in Scripture.

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We don't have the guarantee that God is going to do that. And to the point that we were discussing just before this one, that kind of led into this one, where you said, are you really saying that God might allow someone to have a struggle or something like that in order to glorify himself or in a process of sanctification?

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Well, we don't know exactly what it was. It could have been a physical ailment. It could have been some sort of a temptation. But Paul certainly mentions, again, to the

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Corinthian church. It's in chapter 12, but I can't ever remember if it's 1 Corinthians 12 or 2 Corinthians 12.

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But he says that he had a thorn in the flesh, a messenger from Satan, and he prayed none less than the apostle

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Paul prayed three times. 2 Corinthians 12 7 -10, if anyone wants to look that up.

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So 2 Corinthians 12 7 -10. I think that's an important example because it shows the great apostle

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Paul and his own struggles. And the response that God gives him in his request to remove that struggles,

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I think is a very important thing to read because sometimes God does leave us in those places of struggle so that his strength can be made known in our lives.

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But go ahead. You made the point exactly that if none less than the apostle Paul prayed for a particular struggle, whether that was a physical thing or a sinful thing, to be removed from him, and it wasn't, then we have no such guarantee that we will be delivered from a temptation toward any particular sin that we might experience.

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And so, again, I do think that God has done and can do that for people. I don't want to take that away. I want to, in any sense, limit

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God. And if I was a person struggling with this, I would absolutely be praying that God would supernaturally do that for me.

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There's just not necessarily a guarantee that he will. And I think that's important to know. And I don't think people should be discouraged of the fact that God may not remove that.

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I think the thing to glory in and to relish in is that Paul says such were.

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You use that verse to make a point that some people use that verse to say, hey, once you're saved, you know, you shouldn't be exhibiting any of these things because such were some of you.

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Now, of course, that's an incorrect understanding of that passage and how salvation and sanctification works. But what an amazing truth that such were some of them.

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In other words, it's not impossible for God to do those things. We can use all of the Christian cliches in this example, and it would be completely worth saying them all, that nothing is impossible with God.

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And so I would encourage people to hold on to those truths, even if he doesn't remove it, nothing is impossible for God.

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He can still give us the strength to endure what would appear to us as an impossible situation.

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How am I going to live my life this way? How am I going to maintain my relationships? How am

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I going to go out there and make a difference in the world when I have this thing in my life? God can use you even in the midst of that.

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So I think that is, I think, a good verse to be encouraged by. Yeah, and you know what,

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Eli, to that point, I recently had Dr. Christopher Yuan on our show, and he is a person who was active in the gay community, and he said he had multiple partners every day.

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Now, obviously, that's not everyone. I mean, I'm sure that's not even your typical person who's homosexually active.

29:30

But at the same time, he was, and he said on my show this, and I thought it was great.

29:36

He was talking about whether God might supernaturally make you heterosexual versus that might not happen.

29:43

He said, look, really, the point is, it's all about identity. My identity was bound up in being a gay man.

29:50

And he said a lot of people who come out of that, their identity is in being a heterosexual man.

29:56

He says, you know something, God didn't say be heterosexual as I am heterosexual. He said, be holy as I am holy, right?

30:02

And so the identity we have is in our God, in Christ, and we're to be holy.

30:08

That's the goal, whether you're experiencing same -sex attraction or not, whether you are supernaturally transformed in terms of your sexual desire or not, what you're striving for is holiness and being what

30:21

God wants you to be and being like God. And I know that's a tall order for someone struggling with this particular sin.

30:27

Sure. I want to stop you there for a moment because this is what I've heard. I've heard this in my own interactions with people who've approached me and asked for guidance.

30:34

It seems to be the case that a lot of people tie homosexuality with their identity, such that to fight against this same -sex attraction, they need to deny who they are.

30:48

Why don't you unpack that for us from a biblical perspective? Why is that an inappropriate way to view the situation?

30:53

You know, I'm denying who I am. What does the Bible say about how we should deny who we are in one context?

31:04

And why is that kind of a wrong -headed thing to do is to identify oneself to the same -sex attraction that a person is experiencing?

31:12

Right. So in one sense, it seems intuitive to include our sexuality as a part of our identity.

31:21

I mean, obviously, we're not talking about sexual activity here, but think of Teresa now.

31:28

Neither you nor I are Catholic, but let's just put that aside for a moment. Mother Teresa is Protestant. You don't want to make that mistake.

31:34

That's right. But Mother Teresa, we think of her as Mother Teresa. There's a maternal aspect to who she is.

31:41

Her sexuality is bound up in that. She's a woman. It's a maternal approach. Now, that's not sexuality in the sense of sexual gratification or sexual desire.

31:49

It's more about her role as a mother -like, a maternal -like figure. Her sexuality is important to how we conceptualize and how people look to her.

32:00

So I don't make that point to say anything about sex qua sex. What I'm saying here is it's natural to think of our sexuality sometimes as a part of our identity.

32:12

The problem is that when our sexuality doesn't reflect what God's design for us was and who we are supposed to be in Him, then if we continue to hold that as a central part of our identity, it can mar our identity in a way that is unintended.

32:29

The pattern that Jesus points to and Paul points to, and of course that we have in Genesis, is in the beginning,

32:37

He created the male and female. Now, I've pointed this out, and this sounds incredibly politically incorrect to say, but we're in this deep, and again, my heart goes out to anyone dealing with this.

32:46

I'm not saying anything to hurt you. But in Romans 1, again, to make a different point from Romans 1, verse 20,

32:55

Paul says, the invisible things of God, His eternal power and divine nature are clearly seen through what has been made so that they are without excuse.

33:04

Now, he's talking there about idolaters being without excuse for idolatry when they should be able to look at the created world around them and see that the best explanation is that God made all of this.

33:15

That's what they should be able to see. But it also teaches that some of the things we can know about God from looking at creation.

33:24

Well, one of the things we can know about God is what His intention was for mankind in terms of sexuality.

33:30

Because without being too explicit, if you simply look at physiologically the structures of men and women, it's clear to see what the maker, you don't even have to have ever seen a

33:40

Bible to look at the design of man and woman and see what the designer had in mind. And so your sexuality, perhaps not a lot of Christian leaders would say this, but I'll say it.

33:52

Your sexuality may well be a part of your identity, but it needs to be sexuality, a conception of your sexuality that's grounded in what

33:58

God wants for you. Now, obviously, beyond that, in an Ephesians 1 sort of way, if you're in Christ, your identity is in Christ.

34:08

Your identity is bound up in who He is. He's the one you represent. And so I think those two points that, sure, your sexuality might be a part of your identity, but it needs to reflect what

34:18

God wants for sexuality. And then in a grander sense, and obviously a more important theological sense, your identity is in Jesus.

34:30

That's where your identity is. All right. Well, real quick, I just want to make a quick little point here. Those who are listening, if you have any questions that you want

34:38

Braxton and I to address, you can put them in the chat, preface it with questions so we can differentiate your question from comments and other discussions that may be going on in the chat.

34:51

So definitely feel free to do that. We'll try our best to address whatever questions you might have to the best of our ability.

34:57

And if I don't know the answer, I'll just punt it over to Braxton. Okay. Okay. So you're talking about what the

35:04

Bible has to say with respect to God's order of things, right? That there is a specific purpose in creating man and woman.

35:11

Even just physiologically speaking, it's obvious how this stuff is supposed to work, right?

35:18

But let's grant all that. Yeah, I agree. Say I'm a Christian struggling with homosexual same -sex attraction.

35:26

And I say, fine, I know what the proper context of all this is supposed to be, but I'm not attracted to women.

35:34

It's like, I get what you're saying, Braxton, but talk to me now. How do I deal with the fact that I know what's right, but I have these strong proclivities, these strong attractions that I just can't get rid of.

35:46

I don't know what to do. How would you point that person in the right direction in terms of external help and in turn reflection how they're to navigate this?

35:57

Well, yeah, I think one of the most important things for anyone who wants to be faithful to God, which is kind of how you've shaped this up.

36:07

We're not imagining someone who doesn't believe or who is an atheist or something.

36:12

It seems like you're honing in on someone who wants to be faithful to God, but is experiencing this struggle. And for such a person,

36:19

I think whatever is going on, whether it has nothing to do with sexuality and someone's experiencing doubt, whether it's another kind of sin,

36:27

I think one of the most important things people can do, three things, and probably in this order of importance. Number one is, well,

36:34

I can't rate the order of importance here. Prayer and Bible study obviously is important.

36:40

Wait a second. You mean the generic, what do I have to do to get closer to God?

36:48

Pray and read the Bible? Those cliche answers are actually true? Well, first of all,

36:54

I was about to say, and much more practically, you should get involved in some kind of a small group or a community of faith with people that really do care about you.

37:03

That is a practical thing. We'll come back to that, but let's go back to what you just said for a moment about that sounding like kind of a

37:09

Sunday school answer. You obviously pray and read the Bible. Anything that's worth doing is going to take a little work, at least most of the time.

37:19

Several years ago, and I need to do this again, I lost about 50 pounds, 45 to 50 pounds.

37:24

People ask me, how did you do that? What's your secret? What's the super secret thing that you've got to just let me in on?

37:31

I said, diet and exercise. You didn't hire Jonathan Pritchett to be your real sergeant for a month?

37:39

No, just diet and exercise. Take the fork out of your mouth. That was the thing.

37:46

Well, nobody likes that because they already knew that, and if they would have done that, then it would have worked.

37:53

That's kind of how it is with prayer and Bible study, frankly. I do think the more practical, the more satisfying perhaps, something that you maybe haven't thought of as much.

38:06

There's a journal article from the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion.

38:13

I used this last year sometime with respect to doubt. But when someone is experiencing doubt, for example, which is not what we're talking about here, but when someone is, they're 80 % more likely, if I remember the study correctly, they're 80 % more likely to remain in the church if they have a support group of believers around them to love on them, to offer them resources, to pray with them, those sorts of things.

38:39

Now, I just have to believe that's the same for someone who's struggling with an issue like this, that if you have a support group around you, a community of believers who will pray with you, read the

38:48

Bible with you, those kinds of things, I just think that that will be absolutely, incredibly helpful.

38:54

That's an obvious thing that someone can do and can do right now. If you're not doing that and you're struggling with this, do that.

39:02

I'll return to that point because I want to hear what you have to say next, but I also want to tackle the issue of what if a person who's struggling with this doesn't have that kind of support group?

39:11

For example, someone says, I can't tell anyone because I know the people around me. They will not be accepting of it or they won't understand or they'll say, oh, look, there must be sin in your life.

39:21

We'll talk about that, but finish your thought and then maybe we can return to that. Yeah, I think my point was made there.

39:27

On that point, first of all, our friends, it may actually surprise the person to find out how many people they would expect would be hostile toward them or critical and how loving those people might actually be.

39:43

I remember every year, this was starting in 2001, and think about now how far back that seems.

39:51

But in 2001 - Wow, that's when I graduated high school. Yeah. Back on down here on the earth, but go ahead.

39:58

I heard someone say the other day, think about the 90s because you and I were teenagers in the 90s. Think about the 90s.

40:04

To talk about the 90s now would have been like someone in the 90s talking about the 60s. Just think about that.

40:10

That's insane, yes, if you think about it. Dude, we're old, bro. I know. I know. You have no hair.

40:15

I have gray hair. I don't know if you could see it. I got the salt and pepper action going on. Oh, man.

40:21

Wow. When you put it in that context, that actually makes me - It's rough, man, isn't it? It's rough. I'm depressed right now. Our next episode will be about how to cope with depression and what is it?

40:30

The midlife crisis. Yeah, aging gracefully, right? But what was

40:35

I talking about? Yeah, 2001. Okay. In 2001, I became a pastor and began going to the

40:45

Southern Baptist Convention's annual meeting every year. Southern Baptist Convention meets, what's that?

40:51

How old, Drew, when you became a pastor? 20. Oh, my goodness. I was probably too young to pastor, but I don't think

40:57

I hurt anybody. Didn't hurt anybody, so 20 years old?

41:04

Oh, my goodness. That's insane. Yeah. Wow. I started going every year to the

41:13

Southern Baptist Convention's annual meeting that would meet in big cities all over Phoenix, Arizona, Orlando, places like that.

41:20

And wherever they would go, there was a particular LGBT group, and I can't remember the name of the group now, but they would organize and they would line up across the street from all these bigoted

41:30

Southern Baptists in the Southern Baptist Convention and hold signs up and protesting the convention because of our views on biblical sexuality.

41:40

And I think they likely thought, and I even heard some of them say that their suspicion was that these

41:47

Baptists would be harsh toward them, that they would respond and come out and preach at them and all those kind of things.

41:54

What happened almost every year was that these pastors who had come from their church in the sticks somewhere, some little church in Podunk, Alabama, had come to the

42:03

Southern Baptist Convention, and this pastor would go over there and take bottles of water and say, can I do anything for you?

42:09

It's hot out here. You're out here all day. Here's a fried chicken sandwich. It's not from Chick -fil -A, we promise.

42:15

Those kind of things. I mean, that really displayed some love, and I don't think those people expected that.

42:21

It might surprise you to find out the very people, some of them that you may suspect would be hostile and unkind towards you or critical.

42:31

They might not be. But if it is the case, or if you just can't shake that possibility, and I encourage you to try and approach them that way, but if you just can't shake that concern, find somewhere where you can have a group like that, where you can find that community of faith.

42:48

And if that means visiting a couple of other good Bible -believing churches, then that may be what you need to do.

42:57

But that is so crucial. All right. So, it's easy for some people.

43:03

I mean, I'm a teacher, so throughout the years, I've had conversations with a bunch of students who just don't like where they go to church.

43:10

And they'll be like, Mr. Ayala, I don't like to go to where my parents forced me to go, but I can't go anywhere else because I'm still living under my parents' roof.

43:20

So, what if we have a situation where you have a young man or a young girl struggling with this, they know that in the specific context that they're in, it's just not going to work.

43:31

I mean, maybe it will, but perhaps they kind of know their context and are saying, you know, if I say something, this is really not going to go over well.

43:39

How would you encourage someone who feels trapped in that sense? You know, how does someone, I mean, there's no easy answer.

43:46

I mean, I'm asking the question. There's not like this easy, like simple answer to give. But if someone were to pull you aside and have this personal conversation with you, how would you speak into that person's life who really just needs some direction when they feel trapped in the midst of this struggle?

44:02

Yeah. Sadly, it could be the case that you literally have no one in your life who would see it quite the way we're describing it and would be able to come around you and love on you that way.

44:16

But I find that hard to believe. If you're describing someone who is in a

44:21

Christian family and going to a church of some sort, it's certainly possible. But I just find that while that is certainly possible, as I say, the people that are adults in your life, they love you.

44:36

They care about you. Now, one thing you may have to prepare for is when you come out to those people or tell them that you're struggling with this, it may be shocking to them.

44:48

And so maybe the hard thing for you is to really prepare yourself that the first reaction some people might give might not be their best moment, might not be their best face because they're not perfect either.

45:04

And then maybe realize that's going to happen, and I realize that might not be fair and all those things.

45:12

But prepare yourself for that. But I think approaching people that you know love you and care for you, especially strong Christians, has got to be the first step.

45:22

And if they do treat you badly, that's not on you. If they say, well, this is your fault because you brought this on yourself, that's not on you.

45:31

That represents probably some mistaken ideas in their mind.

45:37

I would encourage you with such a person, if you're that person, if the best you can do is reach out to Eli or myself, well, that'd be perfectly fine.

45:45

And to the extent that we can pray with you and love on you, I'm sure that Eli and I know I would be happy to do that.

45:51

Yeah. Perhaps at the end of the show, we can say a prayer for people who might be struggling with these sorts of things.

45:56

And I say struggle. People say, well, why are you calling it a struggle? They should just embrace it. Well, from a Christian perspective, no, we believe that practicing homosexuality is not

46:07

God's perfect plan. And so we definitely want to be able to approach the topic in love without compromising what scripture teaches.

46:15

And I think that's an important issue, too, is I think a lot of people who experience this firsthand within their family context or really good friends, sometimes they waffle on their commitment out of their strong desire to love the person.

46:29

They end up compromising their biblical commitments. And so I think this topic, as sensitive as it is, must be approached with a balance that while we want to proceed with gentleness and respect and openness to really understand where someone's coming from, we want to do that while at the same time standing on biblical truth and love.

46:48

So I think that's an important balance to have. All right. I don't remember what I was about to say after that, but I know there was an issue

46:55

I wanted to address, but maybe you remember. Well, I don't, but I see that there's a good question from Mr. C in the chat.

47:02

I don't know if you're saving questions till the end or what. Well, what do you want to do? You want to take a question now or do you want to wait till the end?

47:08

It doesn't matter to me. Sure, sure. I mean, I could just take this one real quick because I think it's relevant to what we're discussing.

47:14

Okay, so let's take that question from Mr. C. The question is, what does it mean to find identity in Christ?

47:21

Great question. So when we become Christians, we should recognize that we are in the body of Christ.

47:29

We are in Christ in that sense. And so that means that our identity, the thing that's most important about us is that we represent

47:38

Jesus and we want to be like Jesus and we want to do what Jesus wants us to do. We want to believe what Jesus believed.

47:43

I mean, these are all the things that are most important. I'm from Nashville, Tennessee.

47:51

My teenage years were in Nashville, Tennessee back in the 90s. They're as far back as the 60s were in the 90s.

47:56

And on Broadway in downtown Nashville, we had Elvis impersonators.

48:02

Their whole identity was wrapped up in trying to be like Elvis, right? They would try to look like him.

48:08

They would try to sing like him. That is a very crude way of describing what we should be for Christ.

48:16

We should try to be little Christs, right? Christians. We should be people who want to look like Jesus, act like Jesus.

48:24

Now, we obviously have sinful proclivities. All of us do. But the idea is we can get very proud of certain things about our identity.

48:33

I was very proud to be a Nashvilleian, to live in the greatest city in the world,

48:40

Nashville, Tennessee. I mean, that's objectively true, I think. I was very proud to be a Nashvilleian, but I'm a

48:46

Christian before I'm a Nashvilleian. I'm a Jesus follower before I'm a Nashvilleian. I'm a

48:51

Jesus follower before I'm a particular sports team fan for people that follow sports ball games.

49:00

Whatever it is. Before I'm an American. Before I'm an American. I am a follower.

49:07

You almost came through the screen there. That's right. Before I'm a Republican. Before I'm a whatever

49:13

I am. Before I'm a Democrat. Whatever you are. I'm a Christian first. Before I'm heterosexual.

49:19

Before a person is homosexual. That is not what defines you.

49:25

That's what's important about that. We can get proud of who we are in these particular groups and clubs and categories.

49:32

But it means, look at the Bible. When I say I'm a Christian, what I'm saying to someone is, look at the Bible. If you just look at the

49:37

New Testament and see what it says Jesus thought and believed and said and thinks should be true about us in life.

49:44

Well, that's what I believe. Well, Braxton, Jesus never spoke about homosexuality.

49:50

How about that one, right? Jesus never said the words homosexuality.

49:56

You ever hear that argument? People are like, well, you want to follow Jesus. Jesus never really addressed this issue. So, you know, what gives?

50:03

Well, first of all, Jesus did point to the male and female nature of sexual identity in the garden, right?

50:10

So he did speak to what God wants for this. And that's just false. But the Old Testament certainly speaks about homosexuality.

50:18

And while we're not under Mosaic law, it gives you a principle. It gives you the understanding that that's not what

50:23

God wants for mankind to engage in homosexual activity.

50:29

And guess what? Jesus, in Luke 24, 44 -ish, somewhere around there, in Luke 24,

50:37

Jesus affirms the law, the writings, and the prophets, which, as you know,

50:43

Eli, are three bodies of text that make up the entirety of the Old Testament.

50:48

In other words, Jesus affirms that the whole Old Testament is true and that it's about him.

50:53

That's about as much of an endorsement of everything in the Old Testament as you can get. And Jesus says it.

50:59

So it's simply false that Jesus doesn't have anything to say about this issue. So right there, let's take that question here.

51:05

But Mr. C's got another one here. He says, how does one pray amiss? Question, what did Jesus mean when he told the

51:11

Pharisees that they were searching the Scriptures errantly because they thought that in them they would have life?

51:18

And, of course, if he continues on with that verse, it speaks of it's those Scriptures that speak of him, which you just touched on before.

51:24

So how would you address that? Yeah. So first of all, one of the problems with the

51:29

Pharisees is that the Pharisees thought that by keeping a list, keeping a list of do's and don'ts and yeses and nos, and making sure that as best they could, they followed what the

51:40

Scriptures demanded, then they would therefore be right with God. They would be right with God. This would be what

51:45

God, now I'm right. But, of course, the thing that Jesus pushes back on and why the

51:51

New Testament is not a backing off of requirements in terms of living for God.

51:58

It's actually an amping up of it. It's no, no, no, this is a heart issue. So it's not just that it's wrong to commit adultery.

52:05

It's that if you look after a woman to lust after her, you're committing adultery. If you hate your brother, you're murdering him.

52:12

It's not just don't murder your brother. What Jesus was saying, what Jesus' general posture toward the

52:17

Pharisees was, it's not about keeping a list of do's and don'ts or technically following every jot and tittle, and therefore you're right with God.

52:23

It's a heart matter. And so that's important. But also, literally, life was standing in front of them.

52:30

Jesus was standing in front of him, and the Scriptures that they would point to were about Jesus. That's Jesus' point is that it's ultimately all about me.

52:39

If you keep getting preachy like that, I'm going to have to collect offerings. Yeah, that's right. I can play just as I am without one plea.

52:46

That's right. I could sing. I'm a singer. People don't know this about me. I actually could sing. Maybe we could do a service together.

52:52

Let's hear it. Not this episode. Sorry, folks. All right. Okay. So I want to also address this.

52:59

I suppose it's a little off topic, but kind of, sort of isn't. There's a big pet peeve that a lot of people have with respect to Christians making a big deal of the homosexuality and minimizing the seriousness of other sins.

53:14

So, for example, you'll have Christians protest the homosexual agenda and all these sorts of things, and they'd be picketing outside these conventions and things like that.

53:25

All the while, not even blinking an eye at hypocrisy, at all other sorts of things that people do within the context of the church that doesn't get as much press, so to speak.

53:36

How would you address that issue? I mean, is this something that really Christians need to work on?

53:42

Is there a difference between those other sins and the issue of homosexuality? How would you speak to that? Well, there's a

53:48

Christian myth that goes on in churches that all sins are equal. Right. All sins are equal in the sense that they're all equally condemnable.

53:57

You know, death is what we reap. And they're the same in the sense that if you drop one drop of grape juice on your carpet or a gallon of grape juice on your carpet, in both cases, your carpet is now not clean.

54:12

Right. But there's still a difference between a drop and a gallon. And with sexual sin, you're sinning against, obviously, not just you're sinning against yourself, another person, and God.

54:24

Right. This is what Scripture teaches. So with sexual sin in general, that's true. But let's think about that. I think a good way to think about this, and I've thought about it and conceptualized it this way, is with church membership.

54:35

Now, you don't have to have church membership. You know, that's not necessarily something demanded in the Bible, but a lot of churches have church membership.

54:41

And I think it serves as a great analogy for this. Because when someone becomes a member in a local church, that church is saying about them, this person aligns with us.

54:50

They align with our beliefs. And, you know, we're basically affirming generally the same things.

54:56

Right. Okay. So let's use that as an analogy here, or as an opportunity for an illustration.

55:03

So I don't think it's about homosexuality or it's about gossip or it's about adultery or liars.

55:12

I think we don't draw the line at homosexuality. We draw the line at repentance. So let me point this out.

55:17

So if I'm a pastor of a church and someone comes to me and they say, now, look, Pastor Hunter, I am a liar.

55:26

And I think God made me that way. Now, obviously, this would never happen. Nobody would say this. But I think God made me that way.

55:31

And I intend to go on lying. I'm proud that I'm a liar. And again, I'm not equating homosexuality with being a liar.

55:39

But if someone said that to me and I'd like to become a member of your church, I would have to say that I'm sorry. I can't accept you as a member of the church because what you're telling me is you have sin in your life and you're not repentant about that sin.

55:49

So you can't even get saved in the state that you're describing. A saved person doesn't do that.

55:56

But if a liar came to me and said, now, Pastor Hunter, I struggle with lying. Now, I know that's wrong.

56:03

We serve a God of truth. And it's my intention from here going forward not to do that anymore. Now, I may make mistakes going forward and lie again.

56:11

I'm almost certain I will. But let me tell you, that is not my intent. My intent is not to do that. It's not okay that I do that.

56:18

I am laying that at the foot of the cross. I would say, come on in, brother. We're all sinners saved by grace. Likewise, if you had a person struggling with homosexuality come in and say,

56:28

I'm proud of this. This is how God made me. I don't have any intention of changing. I would have to say, I'm sorry.

56:33

I can't accept you as a member in the local church for the same reason. You're not repentant. But if a person struggling with this came to me and said,

56:40

I struggle with same -sex attraction, but I have given my life to Christ the best I know how.

56:46

I may make mistakes going forward, but that is not my intention. I am laying this at the altar. I would say, come on in, brother.

56:52

Come on in, sister. We're all sinners saved by grace. The point is, we don't draw the line at a particular kind of sin.

56:59

We draw the line at repentance. Would you say, though, that the church has dropped the ball in terms of focusing on homosexuality as opposed to other things that are happening within the church?

57:12

I hear that said a lot. I don't think it's true that the kinds of pastors who would preach against homosexuality boldly, like you're imagining, would not also preach against all manner of sinfulness.

57:26

We're describing a very bold kind of preacher that stands on the word and preaches what it says. It could be the case that where the church has dropped the ball is that when they do get around to preaching on homosexuality, they give the impression that this is some sort of beyond the pale, no coming back from it.

57:47

This actually reminds me, because for the person listening that is struggling with this, I want to say, you should be taking from what we're saying, which

57:56

I'm very confident in what we're saying. You should be taking from what we're saying, especially 1 Corinthians 6, 9 -11, that if you are a

58:04

Christian and you find within yourself still the temptation, while it is not okay for you to act on that temptation or lustfully dwell on scenarios, just because you have that struggle does not mean you're therefore not a

58:20

Christian. I can imagine that would be a plaguing concern for someone dealing with this.

58:27

Right. I think that's a great point. Now, here's a difficult one, though. You have the person who says,

58:32

I'm struggling with homosexuality. I love the Lord. I want to do what's right. But does this mean

58:38

I'm doomed to a single life? I mean, that's a difficult question for a lot of people.

58:44

The prospect of never being married because you think like, well, yes, it is possible for God to deliver me from this.

58:51

But what if he doesn't? I don't know. God calls some people to the single life, but I don't feel called to the single life.

58:57

I don't know how I'm going to survive in that situation. How would you speak into that situation?

59:04

Someone who thinks like, well, does this mean I'm just going to live the single life and that's it? There's a great discussion slash debate out there between James White and a quote unquote gay

59:17

Christian. Again, not that you can't experience same sex attraction and be a Christian. This is a person who thinks you can act on it.

59:26

He's unrepentant about it. I can't remember the guy's name. It's Justin or Jason something. But anyway, he had this discussion and he laid out this,

59:33

I think, very well. It may well be that that is the burden.

59:39

That is the sacrifice that God is calling you to. Why do I say sacrifice?

59:44

Some Christians think and have told me and have made videos in response to me about this issue.

59:51

That you should never praise people for doing what they were supposed to do anyway.

59:57

In other words, for not sinning. But I'm sorry with this particular type of sin.

01:00:02

It is the case that with that propensity and barring

01:00:07

God delivering them supernaturally from that temptation and making them heterosexual or something, which

01:00:13

I don't think is guaranteed. It may well be that they never get to biblically have that sort of a fulfillment or experience that I get to as a married straight heterosexual married man.

01:00:29

That is something. That is a sacrifice. It's a sacrifice in obedience to the

01:00:37

Lord Jesus Christ. If that's the case, I'm going to get to what

01:00:42

James White said that I thought was so great in just a moment. But this is what I think about this. I think that we should celebrate and champion those people in the church who have recognized that.

01:00:55

And have said, I'm going to give that up for the sake of the kingdom. As difficult as that is for them.

01:01:02

We should rally around those people and champion them in the local church. And that goes for people who are struggling with trans temptations too.

01:01:10

I just think that's the right posture. My goodness. We would do that for someone who got off a drug.

01:01:17

That's not to say that people who overcome or make sacrifices with respect to other things shouldn't be championed as well.

01:01:25

Absolutely. That's what I was just saying with drugs, for example. Again, I'm not equating homosexuality with drug addiction or alcoholism.

01:01:32

Someone that gives those things up, absolutely. Celebrate recovery is actually the name of a program that they have.

01:01:39

That's right. All right. Very good. All right. Well, Finding Truth gives a $1 .99

01:01:45

super chat. It says offering. See, we should have took an offering. Thank you so much,

01:01:50

Finding Truth. Appreciate that. By the way, he's a great guy. And I know this is your show, so I hope you're okay with me saying this.

01:01:57

But this is not Eli talking. This is me talking. But I love Finding Truth's YouTube channel.

01:02:02

I think it would be a good thing to check out. I agree. I agree. And by the way, you can feel free to advertise for anyone.

01:02:08

I trust your judgment, except in areas of... No, I'm just kidding. We do have some questions.

01:02:15

So let's actually... Oh, Jonathan Pritchett, such a generous man, gives $9 .99.

01:02:20

Hey, hey. Don't buy any of that overpriced iced coffee like Preston likes to drink with this.

01:02:27

You like iced coffee, man? That would have been a deal breaker. If I knew that, I wouldn't have invited you on.

01:02:32

Well, tonight I'm drinking absolute black hot coffee. See, now

01:02:38

I have to say, I get a little jealous when I see your logo. I love the

01:02:44

Trinity Radio logo, and I'm tempted to buy myself a sweater. But my hardcore presuppositional apologetics followers and Calvinist followers would probably go berserk if I wore a

01:02:57

Trinity Radio sweatshirt. I just think the logo is so darn cool. I'll make one for you, and I'll make it where it says something like Presupp4life or something.

01:03:06

I would totally wear that. That's awesome. Thank you so much, Jonathan. I greatly appreciate that, man.

01:03:12

Definitely want to get Jonathan Pritchett back on as well. We have a great episode with him where he speaks about getting in shape and healthy living and things like that.

01:03:22

It definitely encouraged me when I had him on, and I tried a lot of the things he suggested, and I stopped, and so I'm back to square one.

01:03:28

But every now and then I go back to that old episode with Jonathan, and it kind of gets me back on track.

01:03:34

So thank you very much. I appreciate that. Okay, so we have some questions. So let's move on to the question portion, and then we'll wrap things up.

01:03:40

I think this has been a really great discussion. I think you're doing an excellent job. I didn't expect anything less from you. So let's start backwards, because if I go all the way up to the top,

01:03:49

I might miss some stuff here. So Mr. C strikes again with another question. He says, Braxton, much of what you're saying contradicts the

01:03:55

Calvinistic doctrine. Yours seems to be a message of tolerance with repentance. How do you reconcile that with God's sovereignty?

01:04:02

Just as a caveat, I don't think that it contradicts anything necessarily as a

01:04:08

Calvinist myself. But why don't you address that from your perspective, Braxton? Okay, so my perspective, and there may be something in here where Eli and I differ on terminology a little bit.

01:04:19

So this is an area where he and I have a different opinion and yet are still brothers, still love each other very much.

01:04:27

I'm not consigning Eli to the flames, and I don't think he is me. So I think that Calvinists and non -Calvinists, at least of the sort that I am, have both agreed that God is maximally sovereign.

01:04:43

He could not be more sovereign than he is. Now, sovereignty has a meaning.

01:04:49

It means to be someone who is a king. A sovereign is a king.

01:04:55

He controls his domain. He is in authority over his domain. It's a position of authority.

01:05:01

So a sovereign on earth obviously is not like God, but he has a domain. A king on earth has a domain.

01:05:07

He can step in at any time. He can dole out judgments. He can reward.

01:05:12

He can do as he pleases. These are all things the Bible says God is and God does. But it doesn't mean that that king necessarily determines, in the sense of philosophical determinism or theological determinism, everything that happens in his realm.

01:05:29

In God's case, his realm is all of the cosmos, the whole of creation.

01:05:35

And so he is sovereign. He is in control. He can step in at any time.

01:05:42

But, and I don't actually know that Eli would disagree with what I'm about to say here, the question between Calvinists and non -Calvinists is not about whether God is a king and in authority and can do as he pleases and can dole out judgments and rewards within his realm, which is the entire cosmos.

01:06:00

It's how does he do that? And the Calvinist views that in a certain sense. The non -Calvinist views it in a different sense.

01:06:08

But we both believe that God is king over all his realm. Now, where I did actually, when we were having this discussion, find myself being cautious in my terminology so that I didn't say anything that I thought would directly be inconsistent with any particular

01:06:24

Calvinist perspective is just in how I phrase things. So, for instance, when I say, when

01:06:30

I was talking about how God may allow someone to have same -sex attraction or whatever, and then use that as a part of their sanctification, some

01:06:40

Calvinists would say the same thing. They would say God allows that to happen. And I think

01:06:45

Eli is one of those that would say that in a certain sense of allow. In a different sense,

01:06:51

I think all Calvinists would have to say that in the way

01:06:57

God sovereignly decreed all things, that was a part of it. And that's maybe a more directly

01:07:04

Calvinistic way of saying it. What we would agree about is that it's not a part of God's ultimate design as was represented in the garden, which is why you heard me saying that.

01:07:15

Ultimately, I don't think we disagree about sovereignty. I think we disagree about how God exercises his sovereignty.

01:07:22

And I don't think anything I've said is inconsistent with what a Calvinist could say about the homosexuality issue.

01:07:28

Right. And I think it's important that you kind of clarify that because I think a lot of people say, well,

01:07:33

Calvinists believe God is sovereign as though Arminians don't. They believe in sovereignty. It's how that sovereignty is worked out, which is where we differ.

01:07:42

When people say, well, Calvinists deny free will, well, no, we affirm free will, but it's a particular understanding of free will.

01:07:49

Now, you might not think that it's a legitimate version of free will that makes sense, but we still would clarify it's how we are using these terms that I think we need to be very careful when explaining our positions.

01:07:59

Now, Mr. C asked the question, much of what you're saying contradicts the Calvinistic doctrine. Yours seems to be a message of tolerance with repentance.

01:08:06

I think that that's kind of an interesting phrase there, as though the Calvinist doesn't have a message of tolerance with repentance.

01:08:13

I mean, I would teach tolerance and repentance, while at the same time teaching that that doesn't entail that we compromise our biblical convictions on these issues.

01:08:22

So there's nothing - Amen. I'm sorry, go ahead. Well, there's nothing intrinsic about Calvinism as a theological construct that would mitigate against the idea of having tolerance and preaching repentance.

01:08:32

We preach repentance, and hopefully, if we're biblically consistent, we will also be tolerant within the context of biblical tolerance.

01:08:40

So go ahead. Right. Back to Christopher Yuan, I'm probably going to butcher the quote, but he says something like everybody's pushing for acceptance.

01:08:51

I can accept you without affirming all of your activities.

01:08:58

I'm tolerant in the sense that I'm happy to interact with, love, have a relationship with people who are experiencing same -sex attraction.

01:09:11

What we're not tolerant of is sinful behavior, and not tolerant in the sense that we believe the -

01:09:18

I don't mean not tolerant in any kind of political or sense like that, but I mean not tolerant in the sense that we're not going to accept that that is biblically permissible if it's not.

01:09:29

Right, and I think in that respect, Braxton and I are equally intolerant of sinful behavior. Right. Tolerance with repentance is not intrinsic to his position and not mine.

01:09:39

I mean, we'd agree on those issues as long as we clarify our terms there. All right. Thank you for that, Mr. C. Let's see here.

01:09:47

I don't know if there's a question, but someone says, you said making them heterosexual.

01:09:55

Don't you think that they were made heterosexual, but they struggle with homosexuality? Does that make sense to you?

01:10:01

Well, it gives an opportunity to clarify again what we say. I think that the design that God has for mankind is heterosexual, and that that is the biblically permissible within a biblical marriage.

01:10:15

That is the biblical permissible expression of sexual activity. Now, when it comes to the idea of making someone heterosexual, so if someone is struggling with same -sex attraction, however you think it got to that point, however you think they ended up with that set of desires as opposed to heterosexual, opposite -sex attraction, however you think they got there, whether you think that it's a part of living in a fallen world, and so perhaps there is something to a propensity for that with genetic stuff like that, or if you think it's thoroughly a result of nurture, things that have happened in their life, or if you think that it's, and certainly for some people, this is definitely true for some people,

01:11:02

I'm not saying it's true for everybody, that pushing the bar of pornography and things like that further and further got them to this point, however you think they got to this point, the idea that God would supernaturally turn that all around and make them kind of reset the system such that they're heterosexual in terms of orientation, that's what we're referring to.

01:11:24

I'm open to the idea that because we live in a fallen world, it could be that someone is born with a predisposition toward homosexuality, just as people are born with all manner of things that don't necessarily reflect

01:11:37

God's design in the garden. All right, thank you, Luke. I know Luke, so hello, Luke. Thanks for that question, or statement, or whatever that is.

01:11:45

Okay, so we have a question from Patrick. I can't pronounce that. Can you pronounce that?

01:11:51

Maybe I'll let you butcher it instead of me. Patrick. I'm just going to say Hsu. Hsu. When I say something like that, the

01:11:57

H is silent, and then you pronounce, you know, whatever. Okay, so here's a question. My friend at church came out as gay.

01:12:04

The pastors are prohibiting him from serving at church at any capacity. He plans to leave the church.

01:12:10

What should I say to him? Hmm. Well, so we don't have all the information that it would be good to have to really advise on this.

01:12:23

So, for example, I'm assuming from the way this is said that your friend who came out as gay actually is of the opinion that there's nothing wrong with a homosexual lifestyle.

01:12:38

Perhaps he doesn't think that the Bible speaks to this, or doesn't care, or perhaps he thinks that he can be a

01:12:45

Christian. I just don't know. But if it's the case that he does not think that homosexuality is something that God is—homosexual activity is something that God is displeased with, well, then that would be the place to start, is to start ministering to him with respect to that.

01:13:02

And, of course, that's a difficult thing to do, but that may be what you need to do. If he does recognize that it is not biblically permissible and he submits to that, he recognizes that this is something that he has temptation toward, but he needs to give that up for the kingdom.

01:13:17

Well, then in such a case, I don't think he would have any problem understanding that serving in the church would send the signal or could send the signal—this is probably what his pastor is concerned about— could send the signal that this is something that their church affirms as a lifestyle or an activity.

01:13:36

So the most important thing to find out is what is his opinion or her opinion about whether this is something that's okay and by which

01:13:46

I mean pleasing to God. So that would be an important thing to know there. A broader context would be necessary to address that question in more detail, though, but thank you.

01:13:57

Janice Johannon says, What would you say to people who say that in 1 Corinthians 6, 9 through 10, the word homosexuals originally meant pedophilia and was then introduced in later translations?

01:14:07

Yeah, so there's two words, arsenikoitai and malakoi. Watch your mouth.

01:14:13

No bad words on this channel. Yeah, so arsenikoitai and malakoi, both of those show up.

01:14:24

And there's a question there about— there is debate among some scholars about that. Ben Witherington does great work on this in his book, his commentary on 1

01:14:34

Corinthians. Perhaps Dr. Pritchett, who's in the chat, if he's still there, can put the name of that book in there.

01:14:41

But he has a great breakdown of this, but ultimately what it comes down to is what someone's wanting to argue there is that what's being forbidden is pederasty or some sort of a pedophilic sort of a relationship.

01:14:53

But that's not the best understanding of this, and it's not the best understanding of the spread of Paul's views on homosexuality as given in the

01:15:01

New Testament. For example, if you let Scripture interpret Scripture and you say, if we were able to grant here that that's what's being described in this passage, that would not seem to sit well with what

01:15:13

Paul says in Romans 1, which we discussed earlier, which doesn't specify any sort of particular relationship, but actually describes simply the act itself.

01:15:22

So I think that speaks to that well. Yeah. Good.

01:15:31

Chris Block. I don't know how to pronounce that. I'm just going to say Block, Black, with the

01:15:38

H. I've never heard it spelled that way. I've seen it spelled that way. The question is, pride seems to be a prominent secondary sin that comes from the homosexual community.

01:15:46

Could that pride be something foundational to the individual's issue with sexual identity? Okay, so before I answer that, let me just say, what

01:15:56

I just said, I actually give all the quotes, data, references, and all of that in my own video specifically on the topic of homosexuality on Trinity Radio.

01:16:05

So if someone wants to search Trinity Radio or Braxton Hunter and homosexuality, they'll find that video.

01:16:11

It's got a big rainbow flag on it and me, and you can click that and I'll give it all there.

01:16:16

Now on this question, let's be as charitable as we can here. That could well be the case because we do find those things sometimes running together in Scripture.

01:16:25

But I think what I'm comfortable saying here is that anytime a particular group feels marginalized because of a particular thing that they're involved in or about them, and they strongly disagree, that can result in a sort of what they consider to be probably a righteous indignation which displays as pride.

01:16:49

So for example, if it was politically correct to discriminate against bald men right now, and bald men were having trouble getting jobs, bald men were not being accepted in membership in churches, bald men were having all these kinds of problems, you might have a large number of bald men and perhaps some bald women form a parade and form some clubs and groups talking about how we're proud bald men.

01:17:14

I think, in fact, my Twitter handle does say that I'm a proud bald man. So I think when people feel discriminated against, pride tends to bubble up in the midst of the response.

01:17:25

Now, that doesn't mean that it's okay, and particularly when someone's proud of something that is unbiblical, that's particularly problematic.

01:17:33

But I think that's a way to look at it. Throughout history, when people are denigrated because of a particular thing about themselves, the response seems to be a quite proud one.

01:17:43

All right, thank you for that. The Lost Fountain says, I think we all have leanings, struggles, weaknesses, but I've struggled with lustful leanings towards women.

01:17:51

I would consider it equal to homosexuality. Not a question, but how would you speak to that? Yes, I think this is actually a good point because, and I think there's a point that needs to be made, that, look,

01:18:02

I actually know what it's like to have sexual desires that it is not biblically permissible for me to gratify, right?

01:18:13

Many men struggle with pornography. Many men struggle with lust toward women that they're not married to.

01:18:20

And technically, I'm not, well, technically, clearly, I'm not allowed to be sexually active with the vast majority of women on planet

01:18:30

Earth. In fact, I can only be sexually active with one woman, and her name is Sarah Hunter, right? So in that sense,

01:18:36

I can sympathize with someone struggling with same -sex attraction, like our friend here at The Lost Fountain says, because I have something that, while not entirely the same.

01:18:45

Now, I would say that the difference there is that you, The Lost Fountain, if you're heterosexual, do have an outlet for this in biblical marriage, if that's the way

01:18:58

God leads. And it sounds like, you know, Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7, if you're going to burn in the flesh, then you should marry.

01:19:06

So it sounds like you're the type of person that would burn in the flesh, so it sounds like you should marry. So at least you do have an outlet for this where a homosexual individual doesn't.

01:19:13

By the way, I wanted to go back to the James White thing I wanted to talk about real quick. This prompted me. James White. You're a big fan of James White, I'm sure.

01:19:21

Love James White, huge fan. Well, that's actually true. But what

01:19:27

James White said about this was, it could be, now the danger with, because you were asking about, is a person destined for singleness in such a case?

01:19:38

And that could be. That really could be. On the other hand, it could be that this individual ends up marrying an opposite -sex partner, and maybe that's a relationship that involves sexual activity.

01:19:59

Maybe it's not. But the other person, the person that you're marrying in such a case, should be very clear about the whole arrangement, the whole situation, because it would be unfair to marry someone with the understanding that you're heterosexual and you're going to be sexually active in a heterosexual way.

01:20:22

But if God provided such a person that could be a great companion for you, then that would be,

01:20:27

I don't see a problem with that. Likewise, and this James White mentioned as well, it could well be that a homosexual man, perhaps a gay man or a lesbian woman who are both wanting to please the

01:20:38

Lord and are great friends, might choose to go through life together, sharing the hell that way.

01:20:44

So that probably isn't as satisfying as one would like, and one might even view that as still remaining single in a sense.

01:20:51

But that may be the way it is. Someone, I don't know if it's a question, but I think we're dressed to the issue of burning with lust, and Paul says it's better for you to get married.

01:21:03

Hervey Schmervey says, would it be bad to marry just for sex then? So for example, like, hey,

01:21:09

I feel like I'm burning in lust, and so I really should get married so that I don't sin. And so someone just looks to marry someone so that they can just release their sexual proclivities and things like that.

01:21:22

Yes, that would be bad to marry just for sex. But that doesn't mean that it's wrong for sexual desire to be a part of it.

01:21:31

Obviously, that's a beautiful thing that God created, that is experienced in marriage, and so that certainly can be a consideration.

01:21:40

It has to be a consideration if we're going to be biblically faithful, because Paul says, if you're going to burn in the flesh, marry, right?

01:21:48

But I mean, look, Hervey Schmervey, I know Hervey Schmervey, he comes on our channel quite a bit.

01:21:56

But you may have to spend some time and prayerfully considering who

01:22:02

God would have for you, what man, I guess, I'm assuming you're a man, what woman God would have for you, but that would be worth that investment.

01:22:11

But yeah, I don't think we should marry just for sex. Jonathan says here, he is slaving away at his desk at Trinity.

01:22:21

Occasionally Braxton lets me go home and see my family while he plays on YouTube. Is that true?

01:22:27

Do you keep Jonathan slaving away at his desk? What's up with that, man? Well, from eight o 'clock in the morning, central time till five, we actually have these, we have some resistance, he loves resistance bands.

01:22:41

Well, we actually have some, they're made of metal and they're chained to his desk and they're chained to his foot. So we've just been trying to go along with his workout routine, and also making sure that he stays where he's supposed to be.

01:22:52

That's very good, very good. Well, that was the final question in the chat. This was very helpful to me and I'm sure it's going to be helpful to other people.

01:22:59

If folks who are listening find this information useful, please share the video, subscribe for future videos if you like the content on this channel and definitely check

01:23:08

Trinity Radio, the YouTube Trinity Radio, Braxton's channel, where he deals, well, why don't you unpack a little bit, just very briefly, what your channel is all about?

01:23:18

Because I think it's also one of my favorite channels actually. Thank you, Eli. And I think that's how we first met was that you reached out to me that way.

01:23:26

Our channel is primarily geared toward Christian apologetics, which is that discipline of defending the truth of the

01:23:33

Christian message. In 1 Peter 3 .15, Peter encourages us to be ready and willing always to give an answer to anyone who asks a reason for the hope that is within.

01:23:42

So we want to do that, but we also want to honor the first part of that verse that says, sanctify the Lord Jesus in your heart.

01:23:48

So we try to do that. We are interested in evangelism, ultimately reaching people with the message of the gospel that they would become

01:23:54

Christians. But it's an apologetics channel. So we're responding to atheists. We're often listening to their videos and giving feedback because YouTube is dominated by skepticism and atheism.

01:24:07

And so there's a lot of that on there. But there's also some stuff that's theological content as well.

01:24:14

90 % of what we do, I think Eli would agree with because there's only a small percentage of things that we disagree with and those don't come up very often.

01:24:23

On my channel, but I would love it if you check it out. Now, again, I think you should share this video around if it would be helpful.

01:24:31

But I also think that for some of the detailed information, just search my name and homosexuality.

01:24:39

You'll find a video there that I made a couple of years ago that I think is great. Sometimes when

01:24:44

I'm talking to you, Eli, because we're friends, I get boisterous and I get direct about what I'm saying. Whereas there,

01:24:50

I try to be really, really sympathetic and really careful because I imagined that people might share that video around with friends dealing with this.

01:25:01

Sure. Yeah. I particularly appreciate your response videos. I think you do an excellent job critiquing.

01:25:07

Even my precept apologetics friends can learn from Braxton's, what

01:25:13

I would call kind of an internal critique of atheistic perspectives going around on YouTube.

01:25:18

So definitely you can find great value in the content even if you don't share some of the apologetic and theological convictions that Braxton and Jonathan, when he's on there, do.

01:25:28

So definitely check out Trinity Radio. Guys, I just want to really thank all the supporters and subscribers. So far, we have 2 ,370 -something subscribers.

01:25:37

I can't see the specific number. But I'm greatly appreciative of those who have supported the channel, whether it's financially or just by their subscription.

01:25:47

It's definitely encouraging and is inspiring to continue on and get content that I think is going to be helpful and beneficial for people.

01:25:55

I'm going to be having Brian Knapp from Choosing Hats on next

01:26:00

Tuesday, I believe. If you don't know what Choosing Hats is, I don't know if they're adding new content, but it was kind of a big deal back in the day.

01:26:07

It was the website to go to to learn presuppositional apologetics. But Brian Knapp was the co -founder of Choosing Hats.

01:26:13

And so we're going to have him on to discuss everything presupp. So if you have more questions that perhaps we haven't addressed in a past video on presuppositional apologetics, you definitely want to catch that next

01:26:24

Tuesday at 9 p .m. Eastern. Also, I will be having Dr.

01:26:29

Michael Icona on in May. I have not set a date. I literally just touched base with him today.

01:26:35

We'll be setting a date. We'll talk about something related to the resurrection. So definitely look out for that.

01:26:43

I think that's it. Last point. If you are interested in learning presuppositional apologetics, you can visit

01:26:49

RevealedApologetics .com and sign up for Presupp University, PresuppU, and you could take an entire course.

01:26:57

If you sign up for the course, there's a date there. It looks like kind of like a semester date from this date to that date.

01:27:05

Don't pay attention to that. If you sign up now or anytime, you'll get the content, the lectures, the outlines, the

01:27:12

PowerPoint slides, and you can work at it and on your own pace. So you definitely can do that anytime. It would support the ministry.

01:27:18

And definitely, I think you guys would benefit from it as well. Well, that's all for today.

01:27:24

Thank you so much, Braxton, for coming on. You did an excellent job. You got a perfect score. I was grading you the entire time.

01:27:32

And it's always helpful to hear what you have to say. So thank you so much. Thanks for having me on.

01:27:37

And I'm probably going to sign up for your Presupp class. Well, thanks a lot.

01:27:42

I'm pretty sure you won't, but hey, it's all good. Thank you very much. All right. Well, that's it for this episode. Thank you so much, guys, for listening in.