The History of Spiritual Disciplines and why they are not biblical | Theocast

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So just a couple of ground rules since this is a little bit different. I definitely want your questions so as I'm teaching there'll be periods in the lecture where I will stop and I will answer your questions as it relates to what

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I'm teaching here, so Ryan's gonna monitor the questions when I get to that point if we have some questions

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Then he'll read them off to me and I can respond to them Then if we don't then we'll just keep going. I have a lot of notes so I'm gonna do my best to get through these in the next hour and Then if there's a lot of questions in a particular section,

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I may just wait to answer those especially Sometimes what happens is as I'm teaching I'm gonna answer those questions later on So I may even just tell you that so we'll get through these and at the end around 830

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I'll open it up then for questions and then we can we can close it out that way So if someone wants to leave the feed they can do that a little bit later

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All right, so let's start off with a survey this works better in a crowd

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But you can throw these up in the comments if you want but first question is

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Can you name five spiritual disciplines? So first five that come to your mind? What are the first five that come to your mind and you can either write them down think about them in your mind?

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Some of you that want to jump in the comments you can Now Typically when you get those first ones that come to people's mind are things like Bible reading prayer.

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Are we getting some? Fasting Bible reading prayer memorizing scripture and meditation, right? so I would say in some order that's what people's the list that they come up with as far as These are their spiritual disciplines.

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Let me ask you this following question What do you believe is the purpose of the spiritual disciplines which you'd be surprised you get different answers from that Now when

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I give this particular question out To a crowd of let's even say ten people or more

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I have typically seen several different answers that everyone's list is not the same.

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There will be some similarities to them So the question I have is who's right?

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Who has the right list of spiritual disciplines when I was studying this about four years ago,

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I accumulated I think I had a one day I showed it on Ryan. I had the stack of books across my desk It was enormous stack and every book that was on spiritual disciplines had a different number one lady had a hundred and fifty 150 lists of things that disciplines that you could

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I mean that I don't even know if you have that much time on a year To do all of those But here's the question

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What is the most important discipline for the Christian if you believe in spiritual disciplines

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What is the most important discipline? Now the most common answers

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I've received. I don't know if anybody's throwing them in here. Most common answers. I've received is To help us grow in Christ.

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I'm sorry. I know this is different most important discipline And I'm not gonna wait to look at the comments most important discipline

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Typically is either prayer or Bible reading those are the two and there might be something else in your mind but if I were to have to pick one,

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I would say it's faith and I have given this survey in the last five years.

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I don't know how many times and I've never had someone pick faith Because they don't see faith as the primary focus of the

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Christian life if I'm gonna discipline myself in something I'm gonna discipline in myself in Making sure

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I'm resting in the perfect work of Christ Now what do we believe is the purpose this is the purpose

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I have behind spiritual disciplines to help us grow in Christ to help us be Effective Christians, right?

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So we discipline ourselves so we can be effective to help us meet requirements for sanctification So if you're gonna be sanctified

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Before God this is what you have to do to earn God's favor or blessings on earth, right?

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But in my opinion Christianity has been deeply affected by the teaching of spiritual discipline

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So it's changed the way in which we understand what How the purpose behind that the one

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I think is most important which is faith For instance, I have given the survey above to a number of people in this last year and as I've done that When we finally go back through this list again

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Really the only list the only thing you can write down as far as spiritual disciplines from a biblical standpoint is faith

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And we'll get to that as we get to to the very end so the whole point of this class is to talk about how did this perspective come about where if you ask any

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Christian right now. What are spiritual disciplines? It's you'd be hard -pressed unless they were just saved recently

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You'd be hard -pressed to find Someone that would not be able to give you some kind of a list of this is what

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Christians must discipline themselves in So where did this perspective come from? Now, I don't know if you guys know that you can do this but you can go to Google and you can do search for books and when you search them you can actually put criterias of What the title is that you want to search and then you can put what year you want to search them in So what

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I did was I did a search from the 1400s all the way up to 1977 and I'll explain why that date in a little bit and when

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I did that search I searched for spiritual disciplines spiritual formation and spiritual exercises those are kind of different words that are being used there and In when

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I when you when you do that search from 1400s to 1977 You come up with about What was it?

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Six books that are actually on the topic because it goes it pulls all kinds of stuff six books that are actually on the topic most of them are not even in print anymore and They were kind of obscure around the 1960s is where some of them would have addressed this and some of them were even in different languages

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Change the criteria. So same search topics 1978 to present day you hit enter and there's over 27 pages of Results that have to do with spiritual disciplines or spiritual formation or exercises

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So what happened between early Christianity between the 1400s up to 77 and from 78 forward is what we're going to talk about so clearly there was an explosion within the

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American Christianity or American culture and What caused that so we're going to look at that specifically

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Richard Foster is probably known as the father of spiritual disciplines.

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We're going to talk about him a Lot tonight and he wrote a book called celebration of discipline in 1978, which is why

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I started my search this way and Foster openly expressed in his article that when

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I first quote when I first began writing in the field in the late 70s and early 80s the term spiritual formation or spiritual discipline

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Was hardly known except for highly specialized references in relation to Catholic orders underline that Catholic orders so the perspective of Christian the perspective around Christianity as relates to spiritual disciplines the man who really is

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Known for kick -starting it here in the America Says that it didn't exist until after he started riding on it, right?

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So In the my first lecture which will be available in the audio I talk a lot about your

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Perspective will influence your purpose So how you perceive things to be reality will then determine what it is that you're gonna do is your purpose in life for instance

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If you absolutely believed that the world ended tomorrow like it was over with Your if that was your perspective then your purpose for life would probably reflect that you wouldn't be a lot of shimming with me right

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Now you'd be spending your life's or time doing something else So your perspective on the

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Christian life as it relates to spiritual disciplines or how you relate to God as far as in your spiritual growth will determine your purpose and Will you will see this throughout the writings of men who promote a spiritual disciplines?

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They believe that we grow before God through means of Different means by which we must discipline ourselves in and our actions and doing these means will then transform us into the image of God That's their perspective and it does play out in their purpose

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We're not going to spend a lot of time this evening but I will I do want to talk a little bit about where the perspective that I'm coming from and I would say a reform perspective of Sanctification and I think it'll help explain the contrast between the spiritual different the spiritual disciplines movement and Sanctification so I'm going to pause right there.

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Do we have any questions that relate to this yet Ryan? No, okay All right

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So we'll hold off on those until we until we get going so at this section of your notes You're going to be talking about the reformed view of sanctification

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So the reformed view and there there is some debate in this and we'll get into that into another time in a podcast

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But I would say in general from the writings I'm going to show you here is that the reformed view is that our justification which is our standing before God and our growth our

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Sanctification are both by grace alone. So We're not going to spend a lot of time tonight about is it monergistic or synergistic?

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But I think that it's very clear that do we participate in our sanctification? We obey But yet, where does the sanctification happen it's by faith

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It's the transforming of the Holy Spirit within us some verses that help us with this for instance is Galatians chapter 3

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Verses 2 & 3 here in your notes It says do you did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

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So we're talking about regeneration right our justification. Are you so foolish having begun by the Spirit? Are you now being perfected by the flesh right?

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So are you now if you are saved by faith, but you say by faith by grace through faith

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Are you going to be sanctified by works of the law and the answer to that is no You are going to be saved by faith.

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So it's pretty clear So Paul in writing the Galatians asked a very clarifying question in verse 3

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Do you did you receive the works by the Spirit? Sorry, we already read that. I apologize So just the reformers also in their catechisms and in the confessions pick up on this as well

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So a couple of quotes here one from the Lenten Baptist Confession. It says that Believers and their ability to do good works is not at all of themselves, but wholly from the

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Spirit of Christ So we are not saying there are not good works We're just saying that the ability to do such works come through the power of the

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Spirit and also the Westminster sort of catechism states If we are not sanctified except by faith

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Uniting us to Christ and later on it teaches that the Spirit of God making the reading but especially the preaching of the word and effectual means of convincing and converting sinners and of building them up in holiness

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Comfort through faith unto salvation So it's I think it's helpful here

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It's saying not only is there salvation connected to their faith But it says their holiness and the building up in their holiness is connected to faith

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By means of the preaching of the word. So someone asked me earlier before we started Personal Bible study versus the preaching of the word and I think there's a constant emphasis on the public preaching of God's Word Which we will get into a little bit later, but this is why the study of historic theology.

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I think is important This is why not When we don't pay attention to how theology has progressed using the confessions

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And helping us in our theology. We can slip back into theology that was rejected many years ago

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But because we're ignorant of our history, we don't know that so modern Christianity Has really embraced this concept of spiritual disciplines within the last 50 years

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So you have this large gap, right? So 1400s all the way up to 1977

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Really not mainstream. It's slowly starting to seep in and then all of a sudden there's an explosion and Why is it?

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So this doesn't mean there isn't a place for good works. I need to start this now. So the questions don't come

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I do believe there's a place for good works That that is going to come in series three and four this is specifically about does our good works play in or does

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Disciplining our good works play into how we are transformed Into the image of God and the emphasis must be on our faith.

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Not our good work. So To help clarify that the Belgian Confession On the

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Reformed faith says this therefore it is impossible that this holy faith can be unfruitful in man

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For we do not speak of a vain faith But of such a faith which is called in Scripture a faith working through love

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Which excites man to the practice of those works which God has made in his word and again it states

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Therefore we do good works, but not to merit by them for that we could for that What could we merit nay?

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we are indebted to God for the good works we do and not and not he to us since it is he who

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Worketh in us both to will and to work for his good pleasure. So to be clear

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We don't think that the good works are Spiritual disciplines is if you if you don't believe in spiritual disciplines, it means you're getting rid of good works

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We're not stating that so just be clear. We'll get we'll get into that and into the very end any questions up at this point

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We're good. Okay. All right, so Spiritual that we're gonna start from the refer the

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Reformers and we're gonna work our way up through history So from the very beginning spiritual disciplines were rejected by the

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Reformers such as Luther and Calvin so here's a couple of quotes as far as the concept of disciplining yourself for the sake of Sanctification so that God would be pleased with you or accept you as righteous.

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This is what Luther has to say about that Yet all these seemingly holy actions of devotion are nothing else but works of the flesh all manner of religion where people serve

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God without his word and command is simply idolatry and the more holy and spiritual such a religion seems the more hurtful and venomous it is for it leads people away from faith of Christ and makes them rely and depend upon their own strength works and righteousness in like manner all kinds of orders of monks fast prayers hairy shirts are

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Mere works of the flesh. Okay, so it's pretty clear Luther did not equate

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Our sanctification with what we do as far as in our discipline That the way in which we are sanctified is by faith

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Calvin in the same way in the Council of Trent and that's right in the acts of the Council of Trent wrote in short

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I affirm that not by our own merit, but by faith alone or Are by both person and works justified and that the justification of works which is sanctification

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Depends on the justification which is forensic of the person as the effect on the cause so Calvin's point is that we are both justified and Sanctified by faith alone, which sounds very similar to Galatians chapter 3 as we read earlier

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And then I found this article you'll find this in the note helpful by DA Carson on the reform view versus spiritual disciplines

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He says it is not helpful to list assorted Christian responsibilities and label them spiritual disciplines that seems to be the reasoning behind the theology that snuggles a smuggles in say creation care and almsgiving by the same logic if out of Christian kindness you give back a

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Back rub to an old lady with a stiff neck and the source a sore shoulder Then back rubbing becomes a spiritual discipline which be honest with you probably my wife would prefer

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Me to have that spiritual discipline But rubbing a lady's back if it's doing it for the glory of God you could then equate it with if you're taking the same

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Logic they're giving here You can then equate it saying if I discipline myself in this action Then God will use it to transform me into the image of Christ, right?

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He goes on to say some of these so -called spiritual disciplines are entirely divorced from any specific doctrine whatsoever

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There are merely a matter of technique That is why people say sometimes say for your doctrine by all means commit yourselves to evangelical confessionalism, but when it comes to spiritual disciplines turn to Catholicism or perhaps

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Buddhism what an astounding statement so write doctrine stay with confessionalism, but if you want to know more about spiritual disciplines

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You're not going to evangelical sources to get those you aren't going to historic Reformed confessional sources to get those you have to go to something that is other than that Which is

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Catholicism where the course he says Buddhism So dr. Carson concludes that this type of teaching

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Subtly cajoles us into thinking that growth in Spirituality is a function of nothing more than conformity to the demands of a lot of rules of a lot of obedience so to be

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Transformed in the image of Christ is done by rules to make it simple, right?

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really helpful conclusion comparing reformed perspective of sanctification and Spiritual disciplines are

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Scott Clark on his blog said Christians without conscious confessional commitments or an intentional awareness of the

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Reformation tend to be rootless meaning Lacking a tradition of piety of their own they drift from one new thing to the next or borrow

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Electrically from this tradition and that like a three -year -olds playing dress -up when those who identify with aspects of reformed theology however borrow spiritual disciplines that the reformed church considered and rejected they are

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Unintentionally creating the precondition for greater problems now

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This is definitely what has gone on historically and even in we're going to get into this where you have people who?

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Claim to be reformed, but yet they're coming over here and they're grabbing Spiritual disciplines and they're connecting them together and that just is going to create greater problems.

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So as I stated before This is why the study of historic theology is important Much of what is taught today concerning spiritual discipline has been rejected for hundreds of years

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Now and considered not to be biblical for good reasons So modern

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Christianity has only recently embraced this like I said in the last 50 years so how did this come about we go from Luther and Calvin and the confessions rejecting this to it's normal to be

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Practicing spiritual disciplines in today so over the last 400 years

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Christianity has slowly slipped away from a reformed understanding of Sola Fide or living a life by faith alone as it concerns sanctification and has embraced

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I would say a hybrid of Catholicism with evangelicalism and This really began with what's called the counter

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Counter -reformation so during the Protestant Reformation during the 16th century Roman Catholic Church Responded to the reformers and they responded with what's called the counter -reformation

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And the main thrust behind this movement was a man by the name of Ignatius Leola.

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So before I get going, is there any questions? Okay Yes, okay, yes

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Harry shirts Ouch All right, so the main thrust behind this movement is by a man by the name of Ignatius Leola He founded a group called the

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Jesuits also known as the Society of Jesus But most of Ignatius writings were attacks against and this is please catch this because we're gonna talk about Ignatius in a little bit

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Most of his writings were an attack against the Protestant teachings of Luther and Calvin So he is the counter -reformation he's trying to stop what they're doing turn everybody back to Rome Ignatius is most famous for his book the spiritual exercises of Ignatius of Leola, which is written around 1522

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Ignatius leads his readers through a series of mystical ascetic practices believing they will lead to greater

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Spiritual awareness and growth. Okay, so the whole premise of the book is this

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Practice which will go through some of what his practices are will make you more aware of your faith and cause you to grow

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So Ignatius theology was rejected by the Reformers because it openly attacked the doctrine of Sola Fide Of course if he's part of the counter -reformation

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It would be logical that he would not hold to justification by faith alone as mentioned earlier many of the confessions and writings of the

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Reformers charted a course steering their readers far away from this tradition of The Roman Catholic Church's view of spiritual growth.

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So how did Ignatius theology and other Roman Catholic teachings on spiritual growth find their way back into popular evangelicalism?

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Well, it began in the 17th century. So just a hundred years from Before Protestantism began to allow this to seep back in and it began to seep back in through some of the

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Puritans And in the writings not all the Puritans but there's definitely a select group of some of the Puritans who began to grab some of the older writings and Even some of that of Ignatius and bring them into the practice of the church

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Church American Church history historian Charles Hamburg Stowe observed quote

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Puritans new and used classic Catholic devotional works the most popular judging from the number of edits were the works of st.

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Augustine St. Bernard Thomas a campus and the his perennial the imitations of Christ in the primers and then later on historian

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Richard Lovelace Talking about the Puritans and what they did with the Catholic works. He quoted or sorry

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He wrote it is not surprising that some Puritans to Puritan writings are saturated with references to persistent authors

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There are more references to the fathers than to Luther and Calvin Puritanism as it relates to sanctification just to be clear

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Puritanism is thus a bridge movement in modern evangelicalism and Roman Catholics may find spiritual common roots

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Cotton Mathers omnivorous spiritual appetite smuggled in many Catholic devices such as short ejaculate prayers vows and attentions of piety and day and night long vigils or depriving yourself of sleep

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So it's not I think it's noteworthy to mention that the early writings of the reformers never really mentioned spiritual disciplines or Spiritual formation as far as that word of that caught the actually using spiritual disciplines but the the they allude to the concept of it that this

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Puritans of the 17th century allude to the concept of it and there's another quote here by Richard Lovelace I'll let you read that just to save time but in this he historically accounts that the concept of quiet time where you're gonna sit down by yourself and Read as a requirement like in other words as a

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Christian you're required to have a quiet time in order to grow in Christ that comes to us by men like Cotton Mather and Even required prayer for meals and things like that.

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So now listen, I don't believe That any of these are actions are unsimple or unbiblical so reading your

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Bible and by yourself praying by yourself Which is actually commanded in Scripture to pray by yourself

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But in any of these other fasting even spending time alone is not bad.

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Do you have a question? We got two questions All right, we'll go we'll take a pause here. And who's the question by?

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Which one can you just give me their name Ryan? Okay I have been taught that fasting is an intentional choice to deny the flesh to focus on the spirit purposes is to grow

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Faith, where does this cross the line? And how do we define the line?

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And then so an all -night church prayer meeting isn't reformed All right well

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I wouldn't say an all -night church prayer meeting is not reformed because they did it in the book of Acts when they're praying for Peter To be released.

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So Apparently the church in Acts wasn't reformed No, I'm not saying that.

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All right two things. Well in this I'll jump a little head in the notes Your faith if we're to define faith and prayer both of them are acts of dependence, right?

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So if you say I have faith in Jesus you aren't just saying I have faith in his existence Salvation is dependence upon Jesus for his death barrels resurrection and his life, right?

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To have faith in the gospel is to fully depend upon Jesus and prayer is also a dependence upon him

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You are coming to God and you are depending upon him for if it's even it's just in his praise You are depending that giving him praise that that that is true of him

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But then there's also requests when it comes to fasting. I think fasting absolutely can be beneficial and in scripture

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It was done as a means to focus one's dependence where I there is a there's a side of it where you're gonna stop

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And focus your attention and prayer into depending upon God for either if it's wisdom or clarity

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Or if there was there was there was a moment of maybe even confession So it's dangerous to think that fasting equates more spirituality

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Like if I do this, then I would be a more spiritual person I think we have to also be careful that fasting is always connected to eating

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I think that it's it's there a time even within My week there are times we're all fast and it has nothing to do with because I'm trying to be more of a spiritual person

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But there are things I'm trying to think through and I'm trying to to gain wisdom from God So it's just like it for this for today.

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I'm gonna set aside this meal I'm gonna use that time to depend upon God for something I'm not doing that because I'm trying to become a more spiritual person.

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I'm doing it out of necessity I feel the need to do this because I'm weak and frail and sinful

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I have sin that clouds my mind in my heart at all times So but I don't feel like it's if you don't do that Then you're less of a

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Christian if you because there's it's not very clear on fasting I mean, there's nowhere in the Bible. It says this is how much you must fast.

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This is when you should fast it's it's left open and I think it's left open for a reason

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And we tend to turn it into a law. So great question All -night prayer meetings.

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No, I think it's again if you understand what prayer meetings are for for the dependence of God in a church decides that they want to do that if they understand that The more time they spend in prayer

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Doesn't necessarily mean it's going to change God's heart and mind But it may end up helping them depend and change their own heart and mind as far as entrusting in God There's a whole nother discussion

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Pilgrims guide to rest chapter 5. I write on prayer You might want to you might find some helpful information there.

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Okay, any other questions? Doesn't look like it. I Completely lost.

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Oh, here we go Now I will admit that it can be difficult at times to see how the

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Puritans teaching is harmful or wrong Because how can you say reading your Bible is wrong or praying is wrong?

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And I'm not like I said before I'm not saying that that's the case, but most Puritan theology Well, if they're picking up this language is leading us towards a dependence upon self and self -performance

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So it's faithfulness as we say with the theocasts. It's faithfulness instead of faith, right?

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So we're putting the do before the done which is which is dangerous So as we continue to move through history the concept of external efforts leading the spiritual growth gains traction

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But Roman Catholic theology is never really overtly embraced So you're not going to see it.

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You're not going to see people overtly push you towards a Rome, but it does seep in and It seeps in with authors like Richard Foster Dallas Willard, which we're going to see here shortly.

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Alright, so let's keep moving forward. So you have Ignatius who really starts really popular.

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His book is still being published today After 500 years then you have or 400 years

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Then you have the Puritans who begin to dabble in it and then it begins to influence

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Big -time influencers like Jonathan Edwards So everybody is heard of Jonathan Edwards and during the 18th century

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Americans were deeply influenced by Jonathan Edwards, especially for instance his 70 resolutions

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If you've not read through the resolutions of Jonathan Edwards, you probably should and just ask yourself this question

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Where in the resolutions is he resolving himself to rest in Christ like I'm Resolving to set aside all earthly desires

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I'm setting any temptation to put trust in my flesh or any temptation to put trust in faithfulness

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Then I'd be all about those resolutions like give me seven resolutions where every day I'm trying to resolve to only rest in Christ, but it's not it's he's resolving towards performance and Some of those

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I would say Jonathan Edwards his intentions are not evil. It's not like he's trying to Teach some bad theology.

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I think his resolve was to glorify God So kudos to that, but it's coming from a distortion of justification and sanctification.

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So in this the you're resolving to do something because you think the end result will put will will

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Present you more righteous before God and it's we're gonna see here and it's it's not the case

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Moving quickly through this so we can get through all these notes You guys got we go from Jonathan Edwards to men like John and Charles Wesley.

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So these two brothers Really have kind of a big evangelical shift from a faith driven sanctification to a works

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Sanctification These men emphasize personal holiness by means of methods. Of course, they started the method of Methodist movement

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Methodist professor and writer Randy Maddox wrote this in Christianity Today, which I found fascinating about John Wesley He said he championed pursuit of holiness through spiritual disciplines typically

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Describing the Christians goal as perfect love Seamlessly he issued denials of any perfect holiness in his life.

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So you have Jonathan John and Charles Wesley very popular very famous a lot of their a lot of influence especially in the

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Methodist movement but they are really the one who kind of on the heels Jonathan Edwards popularized begin to popularize this concept of Disciplining yourself or making sure that you're doing certain things that make you holy before God Now I would not describe

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Wesley's view of spiritual formation as the same as Foster and Willard I don't think Foster and Willard go as far as Wesley did but he did start a trend confusing the emphasis of personal holiness and which kind of Ended up leading people to think that they could live perfect lives or get into perfectionism

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And then this leads to the 19th century you have big influencer like Charles Finney and you see the rise of Revivalism in America if you haven't heard

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Byron series on from here to there spends a lot of time in revivalism encourage you to go and listen to that series

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It's free for those of you that are total access members but Charles Finney has been described as the father of modern revivalism and I mentioned

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Finney here because of his strong influence Away from historic biblical theology in his systematic theology

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Finney asks this question Does a Christian cease to be a Christian whenever he commits a sin?

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Right. It's a great question in a systematic theology. Here's his answer Whenever he sends he must for the time being cease to be holy the

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Christian therefore is justified no longer than he obeys and must be condemned when he disobeys or Antinomian ism is true in these respects then the sinning

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Christian and the unconverted sinner are upon precisely the same ground

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That that that's an ouch Theology he's saying the moment you sin you are no longer justified and This man has a heavy influence on a lot of American theology a lot of the revivalistic

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Movement is fear tactic driven. And so you have people questioning their salvation and it's very heavy

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Performance based so you must perform well, and of course a lot of people would deny this theology

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But the influence of Finney can very much be seen in today's teaching to have the most well -known other men that kind of followed on the heels of Finney, which is a

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DL Moody and Billy Sunday and they too would attempt to change

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America's what there was his lack of godliness through moralistic preaching By this time in American history that reformed theology was really on a decline and were moral driven sermons was very much on an on an incline

34:12

Excuse me So this was kind of like I would say I was really brief kind of quick through Don't have any questions yet.

34:21

Yeah, John Decker asked so the Puritans added prayer before meals Yeah, they required it they made it as a requirement so there's nothing in Scripture look

34:33

I think it's good to pray for emails. It's good to stop at any moment and thank God for anything But to require it

34:39

Would mean if you didn't do it you're in sin, right? So some people when they don't eat like when they don't pray before they eat they feel guilty like they did something wrong

34:49

That's that was the dangerous as it was they made it a part of kind of like within the church culture It was a requirement to do that.

34:55

So to answer their pleasure Yeah, it was definitely a

35:10

Moravian concept I think that the it within the reform crowd it did begin to The Puritans it began to influence them.

35:18

What was that? What was the other question? Yeah, yes they did but you would like I said you would see it seep in and It wasn't very prevalent during the sound you can see like when

35:33

I was doing my research there was you can see where it began to seep in and even with To be clear every confessional church

35:42

Doesn't mean that their theology is sound and perfect and they're not going to struggle with legalism

35:47

So in fact, there are confessional churches that hold the spiritual disciplines, which is kind of confusing to me So just to be clear just because your confessional doesn't mean your theology is going to be absolutely sound because it depends on how well

35:57

Do you hold the confessions? So hopefully that answered those questions So the further we move away from the the

36:07

Reformation the closer we are returning the Roman Catholic theology concerning Spiritual growth and piety that's kind of the train of thought.

36:14

I wanted you to see and that gets us to the 1970s so We do not see spiritual disciplines truly gain traction in American culture until at this point.

36:26

So it's here in there It's in pockets. It's beginning to gain traction through guys like Charles Finney and deal

36:32

Moody through revivalism but the explosion where it becomes Common knowledge

36:39

Everywhere. Everyone's accepting the concept really doesn't take traction till 1970s.

36:45

So who modern influence of spiritual disciplines? The modern influencers are the three we're going to look at is

36:53

Richard Foster Dallas Willard and Don Whitney. So let's start with Richard Foster Foster is a

37:02

Quaker writer and theologian Wrote a book in 1978 entitled Celebration of Discipline which really is what caused the explosion and probably by far the most influential individual to give rise to this and many have

37:21

Many have titled Richard Foster to be kind of the father of the modern spiritual disciplines movement

37:27

So Foster himself writes today it is rare. It is a rare person who has not heard the term spiritual disciplines

37:37

Seminary courses in spiritual formation proliferate like baby rabbits and it is absolutely true even in So in so -called reformed schools, there are classes on reform.

37:49

I'm sorry on spiritual disciplines a good example, this would be Southern Seminary So what is complicated about many of the things many of these men's works is that they will sound so close to what

38:03

Scripture says So that's that's what can be complicated. Is that wow what what they sound it sounds true for instance in his book

38:11

Will Foster states inner righteousness is a gift from God to be graciously received

38:16

The needed change within us is God's work not ours. I couldn't agree more I mean that is an absolute brilliant statement

38:23

But he goes on to abandon that very statement in his work later on for instance

38:32

He confuses the two in the quote he says God has given us the disciplines of the spiritual life as a means of receiving his grace as The means of receiving his grace

38:42

So we have to discipline in order to do that the disciplines allow us to place ourselves before God so that he can transform us

38:49

So again, it's not faith That transforms us. It's discipline that transforms us.

38:54

So he's beginning to deny the very statement He had quoted before so in this book Foster provides an extensive list of various disciplines that help us

39:03

Help us assess our transformation assist us in our transformation So some of the ones that he gives a simplicity solitude submission and service to name a few the problem with this list is that Scripture never states that any of these actions actually produce spiritual transformation.

39:23

So simplicity solitude and submission Unless you're submitting yourself to the

39:28

Lord Jesus Christ in faith They don't produce in us transformation scripture never equates that but according to Foster he's gonna argue for that Do we have any other new questions?

39:40

We'll get to that at the end, so that's a great question. So hold on to that The reason for the rise of pietism is due to the perceived lack of values in society

39:52

All right, so yeah, I'm gonna read this for for those for the recording later

39:59

Do you think that so this is from John bomber John Dunbar? Do you think that the reason for the rise of pietism is due to the perceived?

40:07

Lack of morals values in society during the time of Moody. Yes, so They moral laxity is we would say is that they were afraid that the

40:17

Christianity was in decline abuse of alcohol was a big issue Men out of work getting drunk laying in the sleeping laying in the street.

40:25

So you have this high move against alcoholism and and what they're gonna do is transform the culture and they do it through pietism where they do it through fear

40:34

And through guilt, so absolutely so instead of trusting in the power of the Spirit and preaching the gospel

40:39

They then bring moralism and this is why even Finney goes as far to say that if you're in sin

40:45

You're just like the unbeliever. So if you die in sin without Repenting you're just like the unbeliever.

40:50

So it's a great question. All right so Foster's example, so understanding that He would say yes transformation happens by the work of the

41:02

Spirit but yet these are the list of things that we must do is a good example of a hybrid of Mixing biblical teaching with mystic and Jesuit practices.

41:12

And of course, he's a Quaker writer. So Quakerism is affecting him as well as you read

41:17

Foster's writing you will observe that he clearly is Versed in the writings of Catholic and Jesuit orders and makes references to them often in his book

41:27

So I don't want to make this claim without actually showing it to you Here are several people several

41:34

Roman Catholic writers who've influenced Foster and again Remember Foster father of modern view of spiritual disciplines his book causes the explosion

41:43

These are the men that he's recommending and also the men that are influencing them So first which we mentioned the counter -reformation right remember

41:51

Ignatius of Loyola in his book There is a section that covers forms of meditation

41:58

So Foster's book there's a section that says forms meditation and Foster writes seek to live the experience

42:05

Remembering the encounter of Ignatius of Loyola to apply all our senses to our task

42:12

Okay, so Foster introducing two believers a man who was fighting against the counter -reformation

42:20

Sorry against the Reformation trying to reinstate Justification by works and sanctification by works, right?

42:26

so if you have no idea who Ignatius is and you're reading Foster's book, you have no concept of Church history and you're reading

42:33

Foster's book. You're like, wow Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna this man's old and he's been a part of the church for a long time

42:39

So the statement seems harmless and for years Christians is kind of just embraced

42:44

Foster's writing because they don't know who Ignatius is But again remind you

42:50

Ignatius is writing against Luther and Calvin another example. This is a Thomas Merton in the middle of the 20th century

42:58

Thomas Merton was Was a man famously known as a Trappist monk who lived in Gethsemane, Kentucky, which isn't too far from here and he wrote a lot

43:08

He wrote over 70 books on the subject of spirituality and one of Merton's best -loved books was actually his autobiography which is called the seven -story mountain just written about in 1948 and Foster an attempt to encourage the

43:23

Roman Catholic concept of meditation. So in this section of meditation Points his readers to Merton's writings and this is what he says

43:30

Thomas Merton Writes that the person who has meditated on the passion of Christ, but has not meditated on the

43:39

Extermination camps of Dachau and Auschwitz has not fully entered into the experience of Christianity in our time

43:47

Which is so again Foster is saying if you want to be transformed in the image of Christ you want to be sanctified he is encouraging the writings of Roman Catholic theology specifically in the areas of Meditating and in our meditation.

44:06

You can't just meditate on scripture. It has to be things like Extermination camps. So again, just just confusion as it relates to our understanding of scripture someone asked me earlier in before we got started on Henry Nouwen and I think this

44:22

Foster uses noun quite a bit and In quoting noun he says God the

44:28

God who dwells in our inner sanctuary Is the same as the one who dwells in the inner sanctuary of each human being so you have here

44:37

Foster encouraging his readers to partake in noun theology of meditation and in opening this book as he's doing

44:43

So there's almost this universalism like everybody has God everybody has

44:48

God that resides in them He's using noun theology as a form of meditation and is in the book.

44:55

He says Without solitude it is virtually impossible to lead a spiritual life

45:01

Why is this so because in solitude we are freed from our bondage to people and our inner

45:08

Compulsion and we are free to love God and no compassion for others Well, that is an interesting statement.

45:15

He's saying it's impossible to lead a spiritual life unless we find ourselves in solitude What does this sound like?

45:23

Well Monasteries right Catholic monasteries. So he's saying that spiritual progression spiritual growth

45:29

Absolutely cannot happen unless we're in solitude. So Foster's positively introduced three popular

45:36

Catholic teachers mystic writers two of them from the 20th century as experts in the area of spiritual growth so the explosion of spiritual disciplines, which is

45:46

Attributed to Richard Foster He's using openly

45:52

Catholic theologians who are not leading us to understanding of faith Our sanctification by faith alone even our justifications by faith alone

46:00

But is putting it next to really mysticism and asceticism, which of course Colossian says asceticism is not how we deal with the flesh

46:11

So I got to skip some time here. We're running out of time. So let me move this forward I Do want to point out that he never really

46:19

Foster really never points out in a footnote that this that these men have Roman Catholic backgrounds

46:25

He kind of just places them on the level of authority So if you can take all those quotes and check them in the book now,

46:33

I think there's an interesting quote here by J .I. Packer and it's in relation to Foster's book

46:42

J .I. Packer writes conservatives conservative evangelicals have noticed Foster's influence on Christian thinking

46:48

Unfortunately have embraced it. I'm sorry. No, here's the quote Apologize ever since Richard Foster rang the bell with his celebration of discipline in 1978

46:58

Discussing the various spiritual disciplines has become a staple element of conservative Christian in talk in Northern America This is a happy thing.

47:07

So here we begin to see you have people who consider themselves to be reformed writers

47:13

Promoting Foster's work so confusion all around and the confusion is going to get even greater with guys like Dallas Willard So let's go

47:21

Dallas Willard and Don Winnie Now this is where this is where we're gonna spend the rest of our time. We have any questions.

47:26

I need to answer Okay All right Dallas Willard is the second author teacher who has had a large influence in popularizing the spiritual disciplines movement and he was also a strong influence both in Foster and Witten so Willard was actually riding on spiritual disciplines before Foster was but he wasn't really gaining any traction

47:49

Willard influenced Foster and Foster exploded, but this is some of the theology behind Richard Foster Sorry, Dallas Willard.

47:59

Dallas Willard writes. Here's the quote I want to explain with some precision and detail fullness how activities such as solitude silence fasting prayer service celebration discipline for life in the spiritual kingdom of God and activities in which

48:12

Jesus deeply immersed himself are Essential to the deliverance of human beings from the concrete power of sin and how they can make the experience of the easy yoke a reality in life by focusing on the whole of Christ's life

48:29

Note not as finished work and the lives of many who have best succeeded in following him

48:35

I will outline psychologically and theologically sound testable way to meet grace and fully conform to him

48:43

So Willard's list of activities solitude silence among others are never as I mentioned described in Scripture but he is saying that these are the best ways succeed in Following Christ or being transformed into the image of Christ So Willard has placed the readers faith in their faithfulness is what he's saying

49:05

Their ability to complete these actions which ultimately points away from Christ.

49:10

He goes on to say On his website. So clarifying this he's got he's gotten some questions on.

49:16

Well, what do you mean by this? Can you please clarify? And this is what he says sometimes we think of spiritual formation as Formation by the

49:24

Holy Spirit once again, this is essential But now I have to say something that may be challenging for you to think about Spiritual formation is not at not at all by the

49:35

Holy Spirit We have we have to recognize that spiritual formation in in us is something that is done

49:42

To us by those around us by ourselves and by activities, which we will voluntarily untake

49:49

This has to be the method again. This can be confusing. I Think a lot of what he's saying is true, but he's combining them for instance

49:59

I think that when I go and participate in the means of grace, I am with my fellow believers

50:05

We are receiving Christ together the fellowship that we're building another one are up into love and love into good works, right?

50:10

So I believe in all of that. That's good. But when he's talking about there's aspects of what we must do that Actually transform us into the image of Christ and unless you do this this has to be done this way

50:23

He's now taking what I would say the means of grace and he's adding more to it real quickly and this is probably the one that most of you have probably heard of which is

50:33

Don Whitney and Sadly in recent history the Reformed and what is known as Calvinistic crowd

50:39

I would say have embraced this concept of spiritual disciplines within the Reformed theology

50:47

The most well -known and accepted book by many conservative and Reformed Christians today is

50:52

Don's Whitney's book spiritual disciplines for the Christian life I'd be curious how many people have that book, you know, maybe leave a comment

51:01

The influence of both Foster and Willard's writing Are very evident in witness theology in his first book

51:09

He has some quotes in there which are references to the Roman Catholic writings He received strong Christians of that So when he did the updated version, he took a lot of those references out and left mostly just Christian writings

51:22

But early in his book around page 16 or 17 He writes I will maintain the only road to Christian maturity and godliness passes through the practice of spiritual disciplines.

51:32

Okay What does he mean by that? Okay, let's not criticize him too quickly if he's saying we must discipline ourselves as far as like focusing on our faith and our faithfulness,

51:42

I agree with him, but Whitney begins to explain what does he mean by this?

51:47

So again, I maintain that our only road to Christian maturity and godliness passes through the practice of spiritual disciplines

51:53

This book examines the spiritual disciplines of Bible intake prayer worship evangelism service stewardship fasting silence and solitude

52:02

Journaling and learning. This is by no means. However an exhausted list of spiritual spiritual disciplines of Christian living a survey of other literature on the subject would reveal that confession accountability simplicity submission spiritual direction celebration affirmation sacrifice watching

52:21

Watching what wouldn't be great if watching Netflix was a spiritual disciplines And more also qualify as spiritual disciplines, right for some for some

52:36

So it's like anything could be this is going back to DA Carstens point Anything at this point can be a spiritual discipline and you can turn it into a means by which we are more godly

52:46

So again confusing So it's it would be easy to find many of the disciplines

52:52

Whitney provided in the Bible you can find some right? I don't disagree with some of these which is praying, right?

52:58

There's nothing wrong or fasting. These are not necessarily wrong Things to participate in a

53:03

Christian what he's saying is I maintain the only road to Christian maturity is through these means

53:09

So if you're not doing this, you cannot become a mature Christian. In other words, you cannot be sanctified

53:15

That's important to observe about Whitney's list is that he explains there are more than just the list he provides

53:22

And again, he begins To add in some of the writings from I would say Foster and even

53:27

Ignatius as far as solitude and quiet But she goes, you know, so just to point out some of the connections there.

53:35

You can see the influence there But in his in his book

53:40

Later on he urges Christians towards spiritual disciplines when he this is what he writes where you can read the quote that's in here

53:47

And so the urgent question every Christian should ask is how then shall I pursue holiness the holiness without which

53:53

I will see the Lord How can I become more like Jesus Christ? We find a clear answer in 1st

53:59

Timothy 4 7 discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness in other words If your purpose is godliness and godliness is your purpose if you have are the indweller by the

54:08

Holy Spirit Or he makes godliness your purpose Then how do you pursue that purpose according to this verse you discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness now,

54:18

I Believe that Whitney would reject any notion of good works are the basis for our salvation

54:26

There's no way that he would hold that if you pressed him He would say no, it's a little if you don't by faith alone But in this quote what he's doing is he is he's taking spiritual disciplines to the logical conclusion

54:36

Without holiness, you will not see God and then he quotes 1st Timothy discipline yourself for the sake of godliness

54:42

So he's saying if you do not discipline yourself And become godly You won't see god.

54:49

You see the circle there. That's the danger That's exactly what ignatius was saying and this even what charles finney is saying that if you're not willing to Become almost perfect and discipline yourself toward this direction

55:01

Then you're playing with your justification again. I am not accusing Whitney of being a heretic i'm just saying when you combine

55:10

Roman catholic teaching in with the bible when it comes to spiritual disciplines You're gonna you're gonna end up making conclusions that contradict each other and I think this is a good example of that um one one

55:23

I added in recently, this is a book by david mathis, um, And I will I will get through this real quick and then

55:29

I will take your guys questions and I think yeah We got enough time We are doing great on time

55:34

So david mathis, uh would be the most recent I think popular book. It really kind of hit the market pretty well

55:40

I think it was sent out to a lot of churches And for those of you that don't know he's the direct executive director for desiring god ministries and his book is entitled habits of grace enjoying jesus through spiritual disciplines and What's hard about this book is that it's been endorsed by some pretty big names, right?

55:59

John piper don whitney tim challis jerry bridges, which I came up earlier and even da carson and I believe

56:07

I believe that some of these men that have endorsed this book because it It's kind of portraying what

56:13

I would say a reformed view Because uh, because some of the language that it's using so for instance math

56:19

It's in his book He uses the word means of grace as the baseline reasoning for the spiritual disciplines and here's the confusion

56:27

So he says means of grace But he actually never talks about the means of grace from a reformed confessional perspective.

56:34

He actually promotes spiritual disciplines So he's I think he's trying to create a hybrid of like let's bring the reform guides in and the spiritual disciplines together but the

56:43

The reason I struggle with the book is that he kind of just tells you he's taking whitney's work

56:48

And he's just kind of condensing it down. So there's a paragraph in the opening of the book In the purpose of his book he says in particular

56:56

I'm eager to help christians young and old simplify their approach to their various personal habits of grace

57:01

Or spiritual disciplines by highlighting the three key principles of ongoing grace hearing god's voice his word

57:09

Having his ear prayer and belonging to his body fellowship And then he later on admits that whatever the terms the key is that god has revealed certain channels through his which

57:21

He regularly pours out his favor And we are foolish not to take his word on them and build habits of spiritual life around them

57:30

All right, so I don't agree with I don't disagree with everything that he's saying except for the concept behind it and this is the the major issue i'm having with all of these guys, so willard foster uh whitney and even mathis is that they

57:49

Believe the way in which we are transforming the image of god Is through faithfulness?

57:55

To these particular lists mathis gives the smallest he gives three Um foster gives the most

58:03

But again, the question is who's right? So this is where I think clarifying

58:09

Are we saved and sanctified by faith alone or are we saved by faith? And then we are sanctified by spiritual disciplines that that particular question to be answered

58:18

I would say the easiest way to clarify this is if an emphasis on the personal interior of the christian life

58:25

Is the way in which you believe that you are becoming more holy so how you are performing different acts

58:31

Then you have confused what means of grace is What the means of grace? How we are to participate in the means of grace

58:40

Uh, i'm not going to get into this unless it comes up in a question. This is my next lecture which is in lecture three

58:46

Uh, we will spend a lot of time in this but i'll set it up for you If you look at the christian life

58:54

And how it is that we are transformed from one image into another that life

59:00

I'm, sorry from one If we're transferring from into the image of christ That happens in a corporate global level

59:10

Not entirely but the but the economy of christianity is seen in that way for instance

59:16

When paul or any of the new testament writers are writing to the church, they're writing to individuals But that individual application is applied always in a corporate context

59:25

So when you have the preaching of god's word as one of the means that's a corporate setting You have you have men who are training god's word

59:33

Who have been approved by the congregation of the elders who are to stand up and exhort people to put their faith in christ

59:39

And that is one of the means that god has instituted as the way in which you will be transformed into his image

59:44

You are putting faith in christ in the means of a corporate preaching and then even in the receiving of the elements

59:51

So the lord's table again, it's something that's being done to you in a corporate reality And then even baptism which is seen as a corporate reality.

59:59

The only part that you have That's individualized in a private moment is really prayer.

01:00:06

And if you think about prayer If prayer is dependence, then you are depending upon god for everything that's there

01:00:13

You are not doing it as a dependent upon self. In other words You will be less godly if you don't spend a certain amount of time in prayer

01:00:21

You are now putting your faith in your faithfulness, right? So even your prayer is now you're misplacing your prayer

01:00:28

Prayer is designed to make sure that you stay in dependence upon god for his righteousness Okay, i'm going to end there because we're exactly at 8 30.

01:00:36

I'm going to go ahead and grab your guys questions Okay, you want to start from the top? Well, what just tell me what the first one is

01:00:45

Lynn Lynn Right under the movie The john dunbar.

01:00:53

John dunbar lynn has two In canon. Oh, wow. There's a uh,

01:01:02

I guess well, there's a Read read to me the first question. I'll see if I can find it. Uh What then is the role of spiritual disciplines?

01:01:10

Okay, here we go. There we go Yes, um role of spiritual disciplines Um, I don't really think there is a role for them because I think the theology behind them is

01:01:19

Obscured it's wrong the the bible To be clear.

01:01:25

This is where the confusion happens What people hear me say then is oh then I guess christians don't need to be disciplined

01:01:30

I'm, not saying that as a matter of fact paul says the exact opposite. What do you say? I beat my body, right?

01:01:35

I beat down because what does our flesh wants to do our flesh wants to flourish. We want to go do things that are sinful

01:01:42

But paul also says in colossians that if you use means of the flesh to fight sin, it doesn't work, right?

01:01:48

So this is the end of colossians chapter three two and three So I think that if you're going to discipline yourself

01:01:55

I think you need to discipline yourself in trusting in the finished work of christ or Focusing your attention on christ and from your faith in christ you then obey you then you then move out um

01:02:10

The danger of spiritual disciplines as I said before is that you're always focusing in on you

01:02:16

And you personally so you you don't see Your need to depend upon the body

01:02:22

And upon the preaching of the body of the preaching of god's word and the fellowship of the people

01:02:28

You depend upon I have to do accomplish these things myself. So solitude meditation journaling which journaling

01:02:37

Multiple people kept journaling as a spiritual discipline I'm, just like I don't see that as scripture as a command from god to do this and therefore you shall become more like christ but I don't think there's anything wrong with journaling if you want to write out your prayers or even just Document what god is doing or your heart in life.

01:02:55

There's nothing wrong with it But if you think that doing that somehow is is going to make you further along in your sanctification

01:03:02

You've just mistaken that that's not how it works So I I have a struggle with The list of things that are given if you think doing that equates spiritual growth um

01:03:15

Then here's your list. Um Preaching of god's word the lord's table and baptism are the means by which god has given us to grow.

01:03:24

So great question Let me keep moving through these What are my thoughts on aw pink's holiness, um,

01:03:31

I haven't read that in years so I really can't answer that So, um, maybe on a podcast or another time.

01:03:38

I'll take a look at that I'll make sure john answers. He's okay. Um, thomas.

01:03:44

Merton sounds like a modern day. Yeah um So are these examples of moralizing the gospel jesus went off by himself to pray

01:03:54

I think so Um now jesus does say when you go alone to pray, right?

01:04:00

So he is assuming we're going to pray alone but there's never a we We like to say well jesus went and prayed early in the morning and jesus went and prayed late at night

01:04:09

So we if jesus who was sinless Needs to do that then we need to do that as well.

01:04:14

You have to be careful in that. That's not necessarily the truth Um, there is the like fasting there is the concept that we do fast and we do pray

01:04:23

But putting a requirement on it Uh, I just think you're going outside of scripture at that moment and you're forgetting what the point of prayer is point of prayer is dependence so it's our need to To to rely on god for everything in life.

01:04:36

So So, how do you interpret scriptures like first john Whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked

01:04:45

I get tripped up on this. I love how he says I get tripped up on this when he's talking about walking well done

01:04:52

Yes, I don't Yeah, nice pun. I I do not We always um like to separate it's either

01:05:03

Superdisciplines always is obedience. And if you live by faith, there is no obedience Please understand when james says if you have faith and that works your faith is dead.

01:05:13

I agree with james There's no in the reformed faith. We are not saying That it is faith alone.

01:05:21

We are saved by faith alone and we are sanctified by faith alone. Therefore there is no works You just have to understand what the purpose of works are and where they come in Pietism and in even in catholic theology the emphasis is on works, right?

01:05:36

My works either save me Or my works are confirming my salvation or in some ways my works are holding up my salvation, right?

01:05:45

So what we love I would say the the most popular version of it is my works hold up my salvation

01:05:51

So I put a lot of a lot of hope in my works and that makes social disciplines make sense, right?

01:05:56

So if i'm disciplining myself in my bible reading and i'm disciplining myself in my prayer life or whatever else is going to put in there

01:06:02

Then i'm proving that i'm actually a believer Well, what's heartening then is in first john.

01:06:07

John actually is not talking about individualizing obedience He's he's talking about people who are unwilling to love the body

01:06:15

John flat out says if you say you love me and have not love for your brother You're a liar because those who have been transformed by the holy spirit and brought into the family of god

01:06:25

They are now see themselves as part of this family and dependent upon this family And if you reject that and say no,

01:06:31

I hate those people and I and you are unwilling to see them and love them He's saying then you don't understand the gospel

01:06:37

So he's he's not saying your love is required as far as Um, it is the natural next step.

01:06:43

He's saying that's just what happens You have been transformed by the spirit. This is what ends up happening. Good example of this is in John 10.

01:06:52

I just got done teaching john 10 and in john 10 They say to jesus. Will you please just make it plain?

01:06:57

Will you just please make it plain? Do you? Or are you the christ? It just says look for the last 10 chapters, of course doesn't say this but for the last 10 chapters

01:07:05

I've illustrated through what i've said and what i've done that I am him because You don't believe because you are not my sheep

01:07:12

But then you have people in the very next verse who say man we believe well, what's the difference? You have people who believe put their faith in jesus and then follow them because of the powers of the spirit of the power

01:07:23

That's in them Sometimes we are trying to beat people into salvation

01:07:29

If they don't see the need for obedience, it's not that they need to obey. It's that they don't understand the gospel

01:07:35

So that's the difference. It's just kind of clarifying that so we're going to go and move on the next one Okay, on s3

01:07:41

Um, what is the outward the question wlc's question is what the outward means The answer is the order the outward and ordinary especially the word sacraments and prayer this question is third one down Would this not mean reading the word in prayer spiritual disciplines that are effective for the elect for sanctification by the spirit?

01:08:02

using these as So would the spirit use? uh the word in prayer

01:08:07

Yeah Yeah Yeah, so, uh to clarify I guess to sum it up Does the spirit use prayer and bible reading as means to grow as spiritually?

01:08:19

Yes, I believe that the spirit can do that But here's the danger

01:08:27

When you place requirements on christians and saying one One -to -one correlation right your bible reading

01:08:37

Is equally it is, uh connected to your spiritual growth Here's the danger in that.

01:08:43

I know people who know their bible way more than I do And they're not believers. I mean they know it in greek in hebrew

01:08:50

They can they can exegete a passage far better than I can but they don't have faith in christ alone

01:08:56

So you have to be careful making the one -to -one correlations because it doesn't necessarily work that way There are other people who know their bible really well

01:09:04

And they live in complete sin so they might be a believer but man they have they have well they have been well trained

01:09:10

But they're living in sin And are they a believer? I don't know We have been so programmed to think that what

01:09:20

I do personally is what transforms me personally Okay, again, it's interior of the christian life

01:09:27

What the means of grace point to us is that everything is outside of us And it's designed by god

01:09:34

What's interesting is if you try and find in scripture Where there's a one -to -one correlation to the personal time in the word.

01:09:43

Okay, where you are reading on a daily basis and That reading is telling you that it's going to it is going to result in a transformation of the spirit

01:09:55

Is you're going to hard press to find that? because It did the bibles didn't exist during jesus's time during the old testament

01:10:03

A lot of what was uh brought put down was verbal and then it was the reading of god's word

01:10:08

So they would go and they would hear and they would hear god's word read and they would try and put it into their heart

01:10:13

So they could remember it But there was not this daily moment where they would sit down and they would say okay

01:10:19

I'm going to read god's word and as I read his word that reading the act of reading will then transform my heart

01:10:25

Or transform me or sanctify me into the image of christ That's a dangerous concept to have because here's why you're putting your faith in the action of reading instead of in the person of christ now,

01:10:36

I You have to be careful in that because you might I understand if you're reading scripture and the result of script your script reading is leading you to faith in christ.

01:10:45

That's fine I will say though in scripture You have the exhortation to the preaching of god's word and the table and baptism and in that corporate reality

01:10:55

You are considering how to build one another up into love and good works, right? So those are the clear commands in scripture if Do I read my bible?

01:11:05

Yes. I love to read the word of god. It's very encouraging I do not equate the amount of time

01:11:10

I read in the word of god to my spiritual growth. That is the danger Okay, that that's all i'm trying to say is that you cannot make a one -to -one correlation

01:11:18

The more time I spend in god's word does it reveal more truth to me? Absolutely, but it's not the guarantee that that action is going to cause greater faith in christ

01:11:27

I know the preaching of the word. I know the table will and so that's what I trust in. Okay Um, phil, uh phil carpenter, what's up phil asked about first seventy four seven, okay

01:11:42

Um I don't know The time I just want to make sure we got oh we got plenty of time first timothy four seven, uh, we got about Uh, about 15 minutes

01:11:56

Okay, so first timothy Yeah, so it says having nothing to do with irrelevant silly myths rather train yourself for godliness.

01:12:14

That's a great question Okay, so um Uh, man i'd have to look that within this context, but I think what he's talking about here um

01:12:26

You put these things my brothers You will be good servants of christ jesus being trained in the words of the faith and a good doctrine yeah, having nothing to do with irrelevant silly myths rather train yourself for godless for while bodily training is

01:12:38

Godliness is a true value and holds promise. Yeah, okay Um, I don't have a problem with this first of all because it's uh scripture, right?

01:12:47

It's paul writing again, we think that that training is uh equating to your standing so That that's the confusion here.

01:12:59

So if you think the godliness That the training for yourself for godliness is equating towards.

01:13:05

Um You're standing before god. That's the confusion There there are people within my congregation that I have to help form and shape.

01:13:13

What does it look like? To pursue and love one another and to love good work.

01:13:18

So we've been highly individualized So what what timothy is saying is that look it's going to take work

01:13:24

In order to learn how to love your neighbor, right? A lot of this doesn't necessarily come naturally.

01:13:30

So Is I said this in the beginning of the lecture christian? I don't I don't believe that christians are lazy and they shouldn't have discipline

01:13:39

So when it says discipline yourself for the sake of godliness I don't have a problem with that because our bodies naturally want to sin

01:13:46

The danger of it is if you think that the disciplining Is the result of right?

01:13:52

This is why in theocaster this all the time done before due so in in in first timothy

01:13:58

You have paul who is laying gospel truth down on the believer and from that gospel truth now comes

01:14:04

The what we call boots on the ground the application of that just saying if it's true If christ is your redeemer if christ has bought and paid for you

01:14:13

And you've been transformed into his image. You now have a mission right that that mission now is to take what's

01:14:19

Vertical and make it horizontal because most of the commands almost all the commands besides glorifying god are vertical.

01:14:26

I'm, sorry. They're they're horizontal Meaning that it's for the benefit of the believer So yeah,

01:14:32

I don't have a problem at all for someone who dedicates their time disciplines their body making sure that they are

01:14:39

Loving the body in in in that way I that I don't think that negates living a life by faith, right?

01:14:46

So those who live by faith are not lazy No one ever could call paul lazy, but it's where you rest and I have an illustration

01:14:54

I'll close the i'll close the evening with that illustration. Let me just grab some of these other questions Is there any pushback against against puritan pure puritan pietism?

01:15:04

Mather for example in their time Um, that's a good question.

01:15:10

Um, I don't know. I didn't get that far in my research But that is actually a great question.

01:15:15

It'd be interesting to research that in metro words. You mentioned prayer as individual dependence

01:15:20

How do you think of taking in god's word regularly alone either by reading or meditation sanctified?

01:15:27

by truth trusting in the gospel to sanctify I I don't think

01:15:34

I don't think it's wrong or sinful Okay, so the I think i've said this before So the receiving of god's word personally, there's nothing wrong with it

01:15:43

The danger is thinking that That it's a priority above the actual means that are given to us.

01:15:50

Okay Uh going on long walks alone can be beneficial Um refraining from certain things can be beneficial

01:15:58

But again, remember your faith Is in christ to sanctify us and by the means that's been given to us.

01:16:05

So we're washed with the word I think that's why it's important that when we go hear preaching that we want to be washed with the word as far as in Hearing of christ to again once have our faith renewed in christ not have our motivation renewed for faithfulness

01:16:21

Most of the time you go in here preaching It's motivational speaking Here are five ways to be more faithful this week and now you've been re -energized to do that instead of being washed by the word of Here is how we can rest in the finished work of christ and from this resting position

01:16:37

We now will go out and love our brothers Right, so there's a difference in that when it comes to bible reading

01:16:44

I don't if someone wants to discipline themselves to read the bible. That's fine But if you make a one -to -one correlation my discipline in my bible reading equals my righteousness

01:16:55

That's the danger But if you say listen I enjoy The truth of christ and I enjoy reveling in the truth of christ on a daily basis

01:17:03

Because I can I don't have a problem with that But the danger again is the more

01:17:09

I discipline myself in my bible reading the more i'll be like christ It is by faith that we're that way.

01:17:14

So it's just don't put your faith in the actions of bible reading Like i'll make a i'll make a wild crazy statement here

01:17:21

There are people who live a life of faith enjoying The wonders of christ

01:17:27

Are very effective within the community in the body for hundreds of years and could not read

01:17:33

And could not read like that's like history there were cultures for This is what caused a lot of the dark ages even with the roman catholic theology.

01:17:41

They they had the the center on education Are you telling me that unless someone can read?

01:17:51

Every single day that they won't truly have a full experience within christ Um, I think it's why it's important when paul instructs timothy or in the and the elders to make sure that the teachers are not novice you want men up there who can lead people into faith in christ and lead them well, so Again, there's just there's this heavy emphasis on individualizing and what i'm saying is

01:18:15

The bible leads us into a corporate reality. Our sanctification is connected corporately I'm going to just read you this real quick.

01:18:21

This is getting into my my next lecture But i'll just encourage you to read ephesians 3 and 4 and in ephesians 3 and 4

01:18:29

Paul lays out this whole instruction to the body and he says if the body functions properly it builds itself up in love

01:18:35

What's interesting about that is he's taking individual people and he's saying the corporate reality is how you grow

01:18:44

Nowhere in scripture. Do you have someone who correlates one -to -one growth as far as growing up in christ

01:18:51

As it relates to personal action in quietness or in their bibles alone so Search scripture and find that There is definitely internalizing of it.

01:19:02

But the the the application of it is always corporate. Okay, let me grab some of these other questions Okay, michael murray asked

01:19:08

Uh, why would you agree that our relationship with these activities? Bob reading prayer, etc has changed from a requirement to grow

01:19:17

To more of an opportunity to do these things because of faith in christ motivation

01:19:24

Yeah, so um If you're if you've been kind of walking down this road Uh with theocast or just in a reformed theology you go from requirement to something we get to do

01:19:35

I would say absolutely. Um Uh I I think it terrifies people that I don't stress bible reading

01:19:50

And there's a side in every single every single person's like no no No, john, you really need to encourage people to be in their bibles every single day

01:19:58

And I they're Just to be frank if I do that if I make that pressure on people

01:20:08

That they are not a good christian and they don't grow unless they have this Uh, I am setting myself kind of outside of one.

01:20:16

I think scripture but also outside of the of history. It's just it's just not 100 years ago wasn't it wasn't you weren't it was you had family bibles maybe

01:20:25

But 200 years ago, no one had bibles that was that easy to have so you couldn't practice in this way It was it was harder

01:20:31

To do this kind of a practice. So how do you love and encourage someone? Well, you have to be together And you would encourage each other through the words surrounding it through the times of teaching uh with prayer

01:20:44

Again, I encourage you to I keep saying this read chapter 5 and i'm going to do some more teaching on prayer But if you understand prayer to be a dependence

01:20:51

I pray because I must depend upon god. I don't pray because somehow Uh, the more

01:20:57

I pray it equals to my transformation in the spirit. Uh, I always am transformed by faith um

01:21:04

That's the danger. So but to actually answer michael michael's question I would say For those of us who live by faith done before due

01:21:14

The time of the word is a sweet time It's a time to be reflective and refreshed But we don't feel like it's a necessary in order if I don't do this

01:21:23

Then i'm a bad christian if I don't do this i'm going to fall pray to sin Um, I don't think that if if there's a man who's traveling and he's got all these cells

01:21:33

Things and he can't get 30 minutes in the word that he's now in danger of falling into sin

01:21:40

I don't see that because then that means there have been men and women who have been in danger to fall into sin for For thousands of years because they haven't had their own personal bible

01:21:48

It's faith in christ in the finished work of christ resting in christ and in these truths that keep us

01:21:54

So what do we if we walk by the spirit? We will not fulfill the lust of the flesh walking by the spirit is not daily time in the word

01:22:00

Walking by the spirit is living in a reality That christ righteousness is what clothes me and god sees me as holy and righteous and I trust in that And when temptation comes and says but you can trust in this

01:22:13

I can push against that and say no i'm trusting in christ righteousness I don't need that flesh to come and get me and then when

01:22:20

I do fall into it What does he say go back and read your bibles go back and do more. It says no repent of that Sin and this is part of that disciplining yourself for the sake of godliness you need

01:22:32

To repent of sin takes discipline, right? But why am I disciplining myself? It's out of love

01:22:37

I am not trying to reposition myself righteous before god because I need Uh that required righteousness i'm doing it out of love for what he's done for me.

01:22:46

So very quick good question All right, let me grab a couple more of these and we'll be done

01:22:53

Um, len has the last four, okay, but reading the word of prayer doesn't mean the sanctification I don't think of a one -on -one correlation but that it's a uh

01:23:05

But that you know, it's a means through which god sanctifies according to the confessions

01:23:14

Okay, okay.

01:23:20

Yeah, well again i'm gonna say reading personal bible reading and preaching is not the same Uh, it's just not um, we just have to be careful with that.

01:23:33

Um, so I know

01:23:39

I it makes there's there's a side of it that makes people very uncomfortable um, but the act of reading

01:23:46

Is not what saves you the act of reading is not what sanctifies you It's not faith is what saves you faith in christ is what saves you and faith is what sanctifies you

01:23:58

And if that's hearing god's word and believing Okay Salvation and hearing god's word and being sanctified.

01:24:06

It's faith All right. I've been trying to hold this off. So i'm gonna give one illustration and then we're gonna i'm gonna say

01:24:12

You gotta go listen to session two and sorry session three and four because I really get into this.

01:24:18

What's that? Which will be out soon In session three, I really explain Kind of um the role of the church here and in section four.

01:24:26

I really explain means of grace It's hard for me to get into all of that right now It We have to create an entire worldview change

01:24:35

Remember when I remember when I said in the beginning your perspective which will um drive your purpose

01:24:41

So if your perspective is that my entire world rests in trusting in christ

01:24:48

Um, so my obedience is important, but my obedience comes from a position of resting

01:24:53

So i've been saying this a lot lately that I I obey from a resting position I am resting in the fact that god is good with me.

01:25:02

There is no condemnation for those in christ jesus There's no required righteousness left of me and by nature by the power of the spirit

01:25:09

I am going to obey and I desire to obey but I am obeying from a resting position A lot of people obey out of fear

01:25:16

A lot of people obey out of guilt and a lot of people obey out of duty In other words, it's required for me.

01:25:21

I'm going to do it We as if we understand rightly our position in jesus christ we obey

01:25:27

Because of what is done. So here's the illustration I have for you If I came to you and I said, okay, i'll use lynn as an example lynn

01:25:36

We're going to go down to the la and we're in los angeles We're going to find people that need help like legitimately need help and we're going to take money from your bank account

01:25:45

And we're going to go and help those people Well, first of all, you're like yes, I want to help people but secondly, that's my money.

01:25:53

I earned it I worked hard for it and I need that so no you can't have my money But maybe here's a little bit to go do that So there's a side of you that's like i'm not giving i'm not departing from that because it belongs to me

01:26:05

Here's a second scenario I then write you a check for a million dollars and I say lynn now I want you to go and I want you to Give this money away

01:26:12

And find people who need it. Well, it's so much easier To give away

01:26:19

What doesn't belong to you, especially if it's going to do someone good. The only thing that's going to require of you is your time unfortunately in christianity we

01:26:27

See our righteousness as something we're accumulating And we are unwilling to allow anybody to touch that because it's something we've worked for and it's ours and in in some ways our personal bible reading and our in our prayer time is that moment of hey, listen,

01:26:45

I've I've really accumulated this and it's important to me and it's valuable to me because it's part of my

01:26:52

Self -righteousness, it's part of my righteousness. It's it's what that is Not in every case, but that's how it feels

01:26:58

So every time you hear that verse Uh from paul when he says you've been bought with a price now glorify god in your bodies

01:27:06

We feel guilty in that like oh my oh, okay. Yeah, i've been you bought me so I guess i'll have to do this

01:27:13

But if you change it and you realize i've been purchased which means I was in debt I was in definite guilty for condemnation forever in needing the perfect righteousness and all of a sudden you wake up and Debt gone and you own all the righteousness that you could ever possibly own like it's all yours and then god says

01:27:35

Now go give my righteousness away. Go give it away or let's rephrase it

01:27:41

Glorify god with this. It's no longer guilt shame duty

01:27:47

Well, it's not mine And so from this moment of resting like I have nothing left to earn

01:27:54

I have nothing left to to to do it's all been done Now I get to go give god glory and give away his righteousness to other people for the sake of the kingdom

01:28:07

That's the design of it. So what is it that you need to constantly be reminded of? That it's done.

01:28:14

You need to be reminded that there's nothing left for you to do And you everything has been done for you

01:28:20

So you are constantly receiving to remind yourself of where the flow comes out of it's faith

01:28:26

Before faithfulness right done before due so that's my encouragement to you there. I totally got into preaching.

01:28:31

I apologize Um, and right there. It's nine o 'clock um For those of you that want to stick around i'd be more than happy to answer a couple of questions

01:28:39

Uh, but then ryan and I have to go because we have an early work tomorrow So i'll answer a couple more um

01:28:47

Oh, I guess that's it john decker says same time next week ryan is up next i'll be on a cruise next week

01:28:58

So no Yes, I will be moving into a new location, but we do plan on doing more of these

01:29:04

I'm glad that you've enjoyed them and hopefully This is helpful for you

01:29:11

I would also say if you're wrestling with this It's good. It's good to wrestle

01:29:16

Uh, I would I would equate it to for those of you that are that transition to into a calvinistic perspective

01:29:22

That first moment you encountered depravity or election I'm, pretty sure you didn't wake up the next morning and just embrace it

01:29:30

It takes time to wrap your head around it. And so my encouragement to you is to continue to work through this

01:29:36

Don't give up on your bible reading go find christ in that but don't equate your personal standing before god all righteousness required

01:29:45

Is already been met now Rest in it and from that Discipline yourself

01:29:52

So that the godliness that's been granted to you Can be flowed out to those around you and you have to participate that in your church

01:30:00

So if you're not a part of a local church loving the body and receiving christ then This is not church.