Cultish - Confessions of a Mormon Ghost Hunter, Pt. 1

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Cultish - Confessions of a Mormon Ghost Hunter, Pt. 2

00:00

All right. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to Coltish, Entering the Kingdom of the Colts. My name is Jeremiah Roberts. I am one of the co -hosts here.

00:07

I'm here with Andrew, the super sleuth of the show. Good to see you here. You've been spending the whole week sleuthing around in Salt Lake City, Utah.

00:15

We are currently in South Jordan, Utah. I had a great time doing some live

00:20

Q &A. That was really great. We are also here with Brother Wade. A lot of you have seen him before.

00:27

Obviously, we're always super excited. This is kind of unique. This is a little change of scenery. I feel in many ways, this is a lot more embedded, really, in the

00:36

Coltish infrastructure of Salt Lake City, Utah, and just the Utah area in general.

00:41

We're here with Jared Fawcett. How are you doing, man? Doing good. Good. Good, man. We just want to kind of just really hear your story.

00:49

We talked a little bit when you were here back. It was a couple months ago.

00:54

There are some things going on within abortion now, and you're out there. There's a lot that you've been involved here in the

01:00

Utah area in regards to that. You just told me just a little bit about your story growing up in the Mormon church. I just knew enough to say, all right,

01:08

I think there's a lot of things that we could talk about that's unique that would just be a great conversation. Yeah, man.

01:15

Maybe just start from the beginning. Just talk about your young years in the LDS church. I think it's different for every single person.

01:24

I think it's just always unique to kind of hear the insider vantage point of what that was like. It was in the

01:30

Salt Lake area, right? No, it was actually in the Idaho area, but you might as well call it the same thing.

01:37

Pretty much eastern Idaho coming down to Utah is the same demographic.

01:43

There is no southeastern Idaho. It's just an extension of Utah as far as the demographic goes.

01:49

In fact, that's what they call the Mormon bubble, is what the insiders call it, is the

01:56

Mormon bubble. It's because you have majority LDS, so you're insulated from the world, so to speak.

02:06

I was actually adopted into my family. I was adopted as a baby.

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I was born in Wyoming, and their friend who was a doctor over there found me.

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They had three kids before me naturally, and then I was adopted into their family.

02:30

I was LDS that whole time. I was born that way, raised that way, sealed right from the beginning.

02:43

They like to say I was sealed in the temple to my bottle, I guess, because I was crying the whole time.

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Maybe that was a sign of things to come, but I had to have the bottle at the altar or else

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I wouldn't be quiet for the ceremony. I grew up LDS.

03:05

My dad was usually in the bishopric or helping out with leadership roles, so I grew up very much in there.

03:14

I was very devout. It's interesting seeing the postmodern, and I know that you guys have done episodes on the postmodernism and Mormonism.

03:22

Growing up back in the Mormon bubble in the 80s and the 90s, we were very much orthodox.

03:28

We would never want to be called Christian. We were Mormons. They were apostates. We were the restorative faith.

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It was that element that was there growing up. I was the kid who was actually going to elementary school, and I would bring my quad with me to evangelize to my classmates.

03:50

I'd be like, hey, you've got to be Mormon. This is what this is. I'm also just impressed because that thing is heavy.

04:04

You're a guy already prepping yourself for all your dead weight lifting, which is funny too because Jeff Gerben always jokes that the reason why he has back problems now is because he gives credit to all the books that he had to put in his backpack before we could carry everything on our phone.

04:21

What's interesting too is that you and I are roughly the same age, and so when it comes to the aspect of postmodern

04:26

Mormonism, I remember we were talking about that downstairs in our Q &A that back then, 20 -something years ago, my classmates, they knew what they believed, and they were willing to go to bat for it.

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We were on the same page that we're not on the same page, and whoa, what a strange trip it has been since then.

04:47

You're lucky to find one that does deal with absolute standards. It's always a very unique situation.

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And that's what I had growing up, so I actually had it. But I did grow up in it, and it was a fairly conditional environment

05:03

I grew up in, meaning if you were following the standards and you were doing those things that you should be doing, there was a lot more privileges that were given in the house versus if you weren't doing those things, it was not just an internal reward.

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It was very temporal as well, and it was interesting growing up with them.

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My older siblings in that family were all natural, so growing up,

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I also heard a lot like, well, why aren't you like your siblings? And when

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I got to be a teenager, him being as teenagers were, I'd be like, I don't know, genetics? But it was very much that way.

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And then as I was growing up, like I said, I was very devout, went to seminary, did those things, except for there was a period of my life when

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I was about 15, 16, where as rebellions happen when you're 15, 16,

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I went pretty much like militant atheist. What made you go militant atheist though?

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A lot of my friends. I had a lot of friends who weren't members or who were struggling, and they just showed, when that happened,

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I had gotten into a lot of like more like horror movies, like that kind of world, which literally wasn't accepted around like the bubble.

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And so the people who were accepting me in were more of like, I got around like the occult, like witchcraft, like that group, because they accepted me into their group.

06:52

I was wondering, were they telling you things about Joseph Smith? Were they telling you things about the Mormon church? Or is it you just didn't like the culture?

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I didn't like the culture. It was a strictly culture thing. And the reason why I can say that is because I ended up like once I had a really like interesting experience during that period where I got to kind of see the other side up close and personal.

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So, and I don't know like if I was dreaming at this point or if it happened. I'll be upfront and honest.

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But one night I was sleeping and I got like at that time when I was 15, 16 is when

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Marilyn Manson got huge. And I was a really big fan at that point and like following and like I was part of the...

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I had a lot of my Mormon classmates who were big Marilyn Manson fans. Really? So yeah.

07:40

Yeah. So I got really into it. One night I was listening to it. I would go to sleep listening to it.

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Like I was that level where I could sleep to it. Wow. And one night like I was doing that and like all of a sudden

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I woke up and I could swear I could hear something behind the music. And like I could feel something in the room with me.

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And it was a big eye opener to the point where I was like, okay, well, if that's real, then that has to be real.

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Like it kind of shook you out of your atheism really quick. Okay. When you get to see the other side up close and personal, it's like, oh, okay.

08:16

Wait, wait, wait. Hold on. Yeah. Did it shake you back into the LDS church? Okay. Should be right back in.

08:21

So if there's a demonic or spiritual realm, then there is a God.

08:27

Yeah. Essentially. Yeah. Yeah. Because in many ways, we had an episode a while back with Steve Bancroft. We were sort of describing even now the new age movement.

08:34

Now it's sort of like the new, new atheism where you get to kind of be spiritual without really having to...

08:39

A moral code. Yeah. A moral code. You get to be spiritual. You have to be autonomous. Right. It's kind of like you get to have your cake and eat it too.

08:46

And I'm just curious, just backtracking prior to you becoming Milton Atheist and kind of growing up in the Mormon church, was there a moment kind of where you sort of owned it for a little bit?

08:55

Oh. It became your own thing? Because I know at a very young age, at 12, usually 12 years old is when you... Yeah. ...ordained with the...

09:00

I got the priesthood when I was 12. Yeah. Yep. I got the priesthood when I was 12. I was the deacon's quorum's president, actually.

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And I was the teacher quorum president as well. So even though they won't say that leadership runs within families,

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I can say just from the inside, yeah, it does. You can see certain families are like, this is where the stake presidents are, this is where the bishops are, this is where even their kids are the leaders of...

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Yeah. ...wherever they're called to be in. Right. And so that's what

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I experienced. I was the deacon's quorum. I was in the presidencies. I was constantly doing those things.

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And yeah, I owned it. I was totally in. I mean, there were times when I would question things, but I would...

09:50

whatever was given to me is the answer. And back then they would actually give you answers. They would use doctrine and be like, look, instead of, well, we don't know, maybe you should...

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and they obscure the point. No, back then they'd be like, well, this is what you are. Oh, okay. All right. So that's...

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and I would buy into it because I grew up with it. This is what I knew. All right. Now, so if I was looking for God, that was

10:13

God. Right. So you had this... all right. So that makes sense then. So you had... so you become

10:18

Milton Atheist, you get into Marilyn Manson. Yeah. You have this scare of really what in many ways could have been an encounter with the unseen realm, just because again, there's a biblical basis for it.

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Because if you just know the things that Marilyn Manson was involved in, he was tapped into things and was doing things that would cross over the other side in ways that God says, this is a no fly zone.

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Yeah. Do not fly over here because what comes out the other side of what you open up is incredibly spiritually dangerous.

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Yeah. Regardless if it was a dream or you're actually conscious, we know the unseen realm can affect people in both ways.

10:58

Yeah. I just don't know either way. And where I was in the room alone, I don't want to say one way or the other.

11:05

No, no, no. Because I'm like, I don't know. It sounds totally possible. And so that happened.

11:10

It shook me back in. And I finished... and I was still going to seminary at that point, because that's what was expected even when

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I was like that with religion. And the seminary teachers used to call in, used to call my parents in because I would do things like change some of the hymns to Hellfire and Brimstone.

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And whatever. Yeah. Some of the Mormon hymns? Yeah. And cause issues. Do you remember some of the hymns?

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A lot of those hymns, actually, they're actually stolen from Christianity, which makes me feel even worse now.

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Right. I heard the voice of Jesus say, which is

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Kingsfold, is actually the tune that they use for If I Could Hide a Cola. It's the same song.

11:58

Interesting. Yeah. Wow. And hearing the actual one now is so much more than I ever thought it could be.

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Yeah. Versus the other one. But knowing that I change songs like that, and I'm going...

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Because the only two songs I really know was... it was interesting too, because we watched

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Murder Among the Mormons. Yeah. Right. And so we thank you, God, for a prophet. Yeah. Right. And then also,

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I remember one time when I was going to the Mormon school that I was going to, you know, I just don't know how to tell it.

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It's great. You know, all of a sudden we had this one small little closet that had a piano inside of it.

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And so it was just how they fit that piano inside of his closet. I don't know how they did it, but they did it.

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And so I remember just walking past there. I think I was there for the one time

12:47

I actually got detention. I don't remember what it was for. But I'm walking by and I hear this piano going.

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And all of a sudden I hear this girl go, I know my Mormon boy, he is my pride and joy. And they're singing the song,

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Oh How I Love My Mormon Boy. And are you familiar with this? Yeah. They actually... that's a song that they teach in the girls camp.

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Yeah. And of course, I just remember hearing that where it's like, one day I'll be his wife, we'll have eternal life.

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And I'm like, what? Well, that's because in their theology, when you want to reach the third level of the celestial kingdom, because even though there's three kingdoms, the top one has a third one.

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They're a third level. So the first level of celestial kingdom is if you get baptized and you're a member.

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Second level is you go through the temple and go through that. The third level is you have to get married. And the only way an

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LDS woman can get in there is if her husband brings her in. So that's why they get married young, usually within the culture and everything like that is because of that wanting to be saved and wanting that surety of it.

13:54

Then he has to call her name, right? He has to call her name. Right. By her new name. Her new name. Yeah.

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Which is just interesting because that's, I try and actually bring that whenever, if ever I've ended up in an encounter with Mormon women or sister missionaries,

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I look for an opportunity to hopefully bring that up. And it's always interesting to see the reply. Most of them will deny it now or they don't really realize what they're doing.

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It's just something that they do. And it's because they don't really own their theology. So I like to bring up when

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I'm doing street evangelism, what helps me with that is I bring up my past with them to usually cut through that.

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I'm like, look, I was Mormon for over 30 years. I had two stake callings when I resigned. I taught gospel principles.

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I taught theology. There's nothing I went through. I was married in the temple. I went on a mission. I've done all these things.

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I know what you believe. So let's cut through that first and foremost. And now let's have a conversation.

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And usually it's a better conversation because I don't get the, well, you're making that up. They're like, oh yeah, no, he knows.

15:00

And usually they don't. Usually if I call a Mormon too, they don't go, we're not. They're like, yeah, we're

15:05

Mormon. Yeah, whatever. You caught me.

15:11

So we're at the part where you're mentioning 30 years in the Mormon church. And so you're back there, you're kind of messing around with some of the hymns.

15:18

So yeah, I'm messing around. I'm doing stuff I shouldn't do. And I've seen a lot of the witchcraft stuff, which we'll play in a little bit later too.

15:28

But anyway, I ended up going back. I actually had a ceremony where I destroyed all of the tapes that I was listening to with a baseball bat.

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It was a thing. Epic. Like the Marilyn Manson tapes? Yeah. Okay. I destroyed them.

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Which is just something that's happened too. Like kids go to a summer camp and they - I did it in my backyard.

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My brother did it. He came back and just, I think he destroyed his Creed CDs and - Creed? Yeah. That's sad.

15:55

Creed's Christian. Okay.

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At least I have the credit of breaking Marilyn Manson. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was

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Black Sabbath was the other one that I was really into. At least it's Black Sabbath and Marilyn Manson, not

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Creed. Smashing my in -suit tapes. But so I did that.

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And then I really was like, hey, I'm going to get - because after seeing that realm, I'm like,

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I'm really going to get deep in and own this. You're gung -ho now. I'm in. You're going to war. I'm going to war.

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And I had a really - a girl at that point too who

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I was really strong with who I ended up breaking off with too because it was in that whole scene.

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I was about 16, like 15, 16. Went gung -ho in, really got into seminary, really started doing everything.

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And at that point too, my parents were very much hands off with me because when

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I was - my adoptive parents, when I was really militant and going after them, my dad one day - because a

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Mormon church is all about taking personal accountability. You need to be self -sustaining. You need this. He basically told me, you're on your own.

17:13

You can live here. We'll feed you. But I'm not going to parent -teacher conferences anymore or anything. If you're going to succeed, it's on you at this point.

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And I'm like, okay. But I went gung -ho in. Of course, they supported that. And ended up becoming an elder when

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I was 18, which I don't know how you become an elder when you're 18. No 18 -year -old

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I know has enough wisdom to be an elder, but you're made an elder when I was 18.

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And then ended up actually not going to go on a mission to begin with. I actually prayed about it and was like, hey, should

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I go on a mission? And I kept getting a no. And that was a big source of contention in the house because I kept on telling them

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I'm getting a no. And they're like, you can't be getting a no. Because up where I was in Idaho and probably here in Utah, where most people get being like around 18, at the time it was 19 was the mission age.

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Now it's 18, but it was 19 then. You wouldn't get peer pressure to drink or do drugs.

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It was peer pressure to go on a mission. Everybody goes on missions. I was liking to point out at that point because I've always been a logical person and arguing and stuff that way.

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I always used to like to point out that Gordon B Hinckley said, should. Every worthy young man should go on a mission.

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I'm like, should. That means ought to, not necessarily will. That's what I used to tell my parents, ought to.

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That doesn't mean, that's not a commandment. That's not, you will. It was should. But I ended up eventually deciding to go that route, put in my papers, and ended up getting a call, which knowing what

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I know now, showed the lack of discernment. Where did you get sent to? Rapid City, South Dakota mission is where I got called.

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But Rapid City, South Dakota covers a lot because there's more cows up there than people.

19:14

It's North and South Dakota, half of Minnesota, part of Iowa, and part of Wyoming.

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I actually ended up not making it to the mission field. That's another story. So I went to the missionary training center.

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This is where I, so I suffer, I do suffer from anxiety disorders. This is where I had my first anxiety break.

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Wow. Okay. So at the training center. So that was probably why I was getting a no.

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I'd like to think that, you know, like my joke is that when I put in my papers, like all my guardian angels went, okay, who told him yes?

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I thought the answer was no. I said, yes. Now you, you mentioned,

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I'm just curious, uh, anxiety break. Yeah. Like what, explain what that is and what that meant when you were in the missionary training center.

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So it was the first time that I was really ever on my own, um, away from family. Yeah. Had nobody.

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Um, and it's not actually uncommon, um, in the missionary training center. Yeah. I can imagine. Yeah. Yeah.

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Um, people are on their own. You're getting pressured, um, like hardcore pressured because it's all about numbers and they're giving you like, you had to memorize.

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And this is when they actually had memorized discussions before they use the thing. Preach my gospel. Preach is pre that you had six discussions that you had to memorize them word for word.

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Wow. And they would bring in like people who would act like non -members and you would role play.

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You had to knock on doors. You had to do phone calls. You like man, the phone. It's a real training center.

20:49

Yeah, it, it, people are learning languages. And once, if you're learning the language, you can't speak to anybody else outside of that because you have to be speaking the language the whole time to learn it.

20:59

Would it be almost like a boiler room mentality? Oh yeah. What you went through. And I broke, um,

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I ended up having panic attacks. I, I, I remember getting picked up by my parents from the missionary training center and shaking almost for a week, like just from all the adrenaline.

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And I was literally just like, and I couldn't stop. Wow. Um, and I remember the only, my only big worry at that point, um, when

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I talked to the psychologist at the missionary training center was, am I getting an honorable discharge? You were still worried.

21:32

You were still worried to, to look, to hopefully appear in a good light. Yeah. Despite not being able to fill the calling.

21:40

Yeah. I'm like, please do I get an honorable discharge? How did late when you were having these anxiety attacks, like how did they, how did they respond to people in the missionary training center?

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Was it, we need to really help deal with this person, but war is this, this is just a person that's just not a good fit for that.

21:56

Or how did they deal with that? They actually wanted me to keep going. Wow. So they were trying to help me to keep going, um, which probably isn't the best idea.

22:07

Actually in that situation, it's better to get them around people that they know, get them out of the situation.

22:13

No, they, they, they were, they were pressuring me to stay. That was the mentality. So, uh, yeah, it was very much that.

22:23

Okay. Did you get a honorable discharge? I did. Okay. Um, when I went home and it was honorable, even to the point of the state president giving the normal speech, which is, well, now that you're done with the mission, now you need to find a wife.

22:38

Wow. Okay. I'm like 19. Is that what you did? Yeah. Yeah. That's, I mean,

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I started going to a singles ward at that point. Wait, are there singles wards?

22:52

Yeah. So in Idaho and Utah, I mean, not so much where there's not a big population.

22:57

I imagine probably in Arizona, they probably have them too. There probably is. But, uh, cause they're in, I know in Gilbert, especially there's a lot.

23:04

Yeah. Um, but they have, they have singles wards. I did not know that. It's from you.

23:10

Once you turn 30, though, you can't go there. You're too old. It's weird.

23:15

Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of singles ward, we, uh, we visited a singles ward this, uh, a couple of days, just the other day where we're at downtown

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Salt Lake temple. Cause there's nothing down, no one down there except for female mission, young female missionaries.

23:27

I just, I also found that very peculiar. But yeah, they had, but yeah, it was a singles ward.

23:33

Um, I ended up going there, went to institutes. Um, music's always been a big thing. Um, I actually joined the institute choir in, um, at Idaho state and it was actually taught by a former

23:46

Mormon tabernacle choir member. So it was kind of like a thing we would go around and sing for different words and do those things.

23:56

Um, and got pretty involved, um, in music and also swing club.

24:02

I was the president, um, vice president of swing club at the time. That I met my wife, um, we actually met at an institute dance and it was after some bad relationships because the thing, the thing is you, where most people on the outside of the faith are pretty commitment phobic.

24:22

Right. Um, you gotta understand that you just gave this 19 year old or some, you know, 20 year old, whatever missionary who's sitting there with a bunch of hormones, like go find a woman.

24:36

Right. Okay. So you're not commitment phobic at all.

24:42

You're like looking for a wife. Yeah. Um, so I had some really bad relationships because of that.

24:48

Um, the first one first, I had three really bad ones. Um, and I met my wife at 20.

24:55

So that should tell you, like you were looking, I was looking, um, and like straight out soap opera stuff.

25:03

Like the second one could have been days where lies episode. She, she had some meeting disorder issues, which

25:09

I was helping her through. Um, she was in college. I wasn't, I was working and she would use my computer because this was back when computers weren't as prevalent to do her homework and stuff.

25:19

And her car broke down. So she actually used my car to go visit her brother at BYU Idaho, which was Rick's college at the time.

25:26

Ends up cheating on me with her roommate, her brother's roommate. And then comes back.

25:31

Doesn't tell me about it. Uses my computer to email me that fact because she can't tell me in person right after she's been using my car and my computer, like I said, drama.

25:43

So that kind of sets up. Cause when I met my wife, um, it was at an Institute dance that I was

25:49

DJing with one of my, with one of my friends. Um, and he was interested in her friend and I was kind of the wingman.

25:55

So I helped that while I found out that she was 17, because this is when high schoolers were allowed to go to the

26:00

Institute dance to get introduced to like the next step for them. And I, um, was pretty scared to even like pursue anything at that point with her.

26:11

Cause I'm like, she's too young. It's going to be drama. I've dealt with enough at this point. I'm going to take, um, and so that, um,

26:18

I actually, our first date, um, I had one of my friends who was a girl cause it was a group date.

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I'm like, come and flirt with me the whole time. So she understands. And so she did.

26:33

So our first date with my wife now almost 18 years was really great.

26:40

Now, um, she flirted with me the whole time. And, and the only reason that we're together is definitely my wife.

26:47

She's, she's a Saint. Um, she, uh, it was pride on her part. She didn't want to tell her sister that she had a bad date.

26:54

She called me back up and set up a second date where it was just me and her. And then we got to know each other.

27:00

Um, we actually played board games. My mom, welcome to Mormon world. No, we played sequence.

27:10

Which we still don't play. We still don't play to this day. Cause I taught my wife how to play. Beat her once, have never been able to beat her since.

27:17

Wow. So the game tends to stay in the closet. Yeah. Even though she's like, do you want to play?

27:30

I'm good. I'll lose again. Um, and then we went and saw how to lose you. How'd those get in 10 days?

27:35

That was our second date. Yeah. Guys know each other. And then we got, um, married in the temple on the

27:43

Idaho falls temple. Yeah. Just real quickly. Was there anything you, you had done?

27:48

You had been in the temple before you done temple work as a devout Mormon. Before I went on my mission, before you go on your mission, you have to go and get your endowment.

27:56

For sure. I think though, in all seriousness, and I'm just curious because many of folk who we have talked with, who were

28:05

X, who became ex Mormon or begin to begin to have doubts ended up being when they're doing something or being involved at the temple, which in my opinion, just always, there is a level of irony because they do talk it up.

28:18

Like this is the most great and glorious work you can be part of. But that seems to be kind of sort of like that moment.

28:24

I call it the, the Morpheus holding out the Duracell battery moment. It was, um, it was really weird.

28:32

Um, I luckily had, I mean, luckily, unlikely depending on how you look at it now, but my family had really kind of prepped me and institute actually had a temple prep class that they put you in before that kind of explained everything.

28:53

Yeah. And so it wasn't, a lot of people don't have the advantage in the

28:58

Mormon bubble. You do outside of the Mormon bubble. You really wouldn't have that advantage. You'd just be going and seeing everything for the first time.

29:05

I had this class that was like, this is the symbolism. This is what's going on. This is why we're doing this.

29:10

This is what's going. And it was like, okay. And then you get there. And even though some of it's weird, you have all your family.

29:16

Like when I went for my mission, my whole family was there. All my older siblings were there.

29:22

My adoptive parents were there. My grandparents were there. My aunts and uncles were there. They're all doing this.

29:28

So I'm like, I'm doing this too because this is what we do. Right. Yeah. I have a question for you.

29:35

So you had that one experience, uh, with the falling asleep to Marilyn Manson.

29:40

So you had this experience, let's say with the unseen realm, uh, which scares you. So I'm guessing in the back of your mind, this must, this, this thing you experienced must have always been there.

29:50

Oh yeah. So leading up to where you were now in the story, were there other experiences that you had, or was this just the one time it was gone?

29:57

You're not focused on LDS doctrines, having any weird, weird situations or anything happening or?

30:05

So I had them more when I was in the singles ward, not at that point. Um, I didn't really have anything terribly weird except for that moment that kept, it kept replaying in the back of my head.

30:17

Like you said, it would be right there. Like I was like, no, I'm doing the right thing. Cause that's real.

30:25

Um, so it would constantly be there. Um, but the only, the only thing that really like shook me a little when

30:33

I was in singles ward, um, was when the Nauvoo temple got dedicated. Um, and I noticed that one of the stained glass windows was pentagram and it has to do with my past cause

30:46

I was hanging around with a bunch of witchcraft goth kids. Yeah. How did you justify that in your mind then?

30:52

I, it took a while. It took a while. It, um, a lot of talks with my Bishop, but he was just explaining to me, um, like the five points meaning like, cause that's what saves us being like the five points of the crucifixion and stuff like that.

31:08

It was like, the explanation was kind of out there, but it, it worked well enough to be like,

31:15

Oh, okay. I can see it. Let's, and he's like, and he was talking about how that was used as an ancient

31:21

Christian symbol for a long time and then got stolen basically was his take by the pagans.

31:29

Yeah. I mean, you'll see, I mean, you'll see that was always a Christian symbol. No, Wade's actually wearing the comment just so we can boost our algorithm and YouTube comments.

31:37

So people can talk about that symbol. But, um, anyways, right. But in any ways, when you talk about the different symbols here in Utah, I mean, we were just, uh, we, we drove by the, uh, the state

31:50

Capitol and right adjacent to the state Capitol is a small little church that right outside has a pentagram there.

31:58

And, you know, we were also just outside the Salt Lake temple, which is currently being reconstructed.

32:03

And they're just, uh, it's just a carnival of occult symbols. You've got the, you've got the secret handshake symbol.

32:08

You've got the all seeing eye. You have inverted pentagrams everywhere. It's just a carnival of that.

32:14

There's that, um, there's actually, if you go to the history, I think it's the museum over here, there's actually a pentagram up on that one.

32:24

Yes. Yes. Um, and no, it's, it's right there.

32:30

It's like it. So there's like this like mural of all this stuff and it's just right there in the corner. Well, interesting.

32:35

Um, and if, um, another thing was across from the Christus statue in the visitor center, like the

32:43

Christus statue. Yeah. There's upside down stars with the bottom point being longer on the wood.

32:49

Yeah. I, I've, I've taken pictures and looked at all of these things. And I also find it interesting that on the earth, when he's called the light of the world, the earth, which is behind the

32:59

Christus statue actually has a big shadow on it. So it makes you think, but yeah.

33:07

Um, the symbolisms there in it. Yeah. And it, and it kind of shook me, but I was like, well, but that things kept playing the back of my head.

33:14

I'm like, nope, I'm just falling back into old traps. Um, back when, you know, used to mess around with that kind of stuff.

33:22

So I decided to move forward. Um, when I got married, um, still, still the thing is they didn't care.

33:32

I still was like into horror movies and things, even at that point, like I always kind of had that love.

33:38

Um, and I think a lot of it stemmed from, um, my adoptive mom really liked them. Um, and so it was kind of our thing.

33:46

We'd watch them together. Um, but a lot of the horror movies we watched, like we didn't watch like a lot of like the, your standard ones.

33:54

Like my favorite horror movie, probably even still to this day would be the old house on haunted

33:59

Hill with Vincent price. Right. Like the black and white, like old school. Right.

34:06

Thing. And she showed that to me. Right. But that would be like the type of horror genre.

34:11

It more rely on the, what you can't see versus like the gore. Yeah.

34:17

I mean, there were skeletons and stuff, but I mean, it was, yeah, it was what you can't see and more. It was more of the psychological aspect.

34:24

And, uh, and so I was always into that world and that kind of comes in because when

34:31

I was married, um, me, like we, I'd always had this stuff playing.

34:37

Um, we ended up having our first child really quickly. Um, we were married for only like a year and a half.

34:45

Um, so my wife was 19 when she got pregnant. Um, we used to like to teaser that she was a statistic.

34:51

She was a teen pregnancy, even though she's like, yeah, I'm married. We're like still teen pregnancy. Um, so, um, my daughter

35:01

Zoe was born. Um, and I ended up, um, really falling in love with, uh, ghost hunters, which was on sci -fi.

35:12

Um, kind of comes from that horror world. Yeah. Well, and what a lot of people don't know is, um,

35:18

I can't remember which one, one of the taps team members, one of the top ones. He's actually LDS. Right. Um, interesting.

35:23

And so they had, I found out they had a team that covered Idaho, Wyoming and Montana. Um, and I joined that group of ghost hunters of ghost hunters.

35:35

So, so just for the listeners too, they're, they're probably thinking they're like, well, this guy is in the LDS church. He's a hardcore member, but he's ghost hunting.

35:42

How does that work? So in their theology, it actually makes perfect sense. Um, so when you die in the

35:47

LDS world, you go to either spirit paradise or spirit prison based on how you acted here, or mostly spirit prison can happen if you don't get like your ordinance is done.

35:59

Um, but it's here. Okay. Spirit paradise and spirit prison are here on earth.

36:06

So it's an unseen thing, which makes, that's why doing work for the dead and everything.

36:12

Um, a lot of people will have experiences with, if you talk to them in the temple, we're in the temple. They're like, well, my uncle and aunt were there when

36:18

I was doing my work for them. When I was doing the work for them. Wait, wait, wait. Their dead uncle and aunt were there?

36:25

Yeah. Like they saw something? Yeah. Like they saw that. That's normative that there's people I've talked to.

36:30

In fact, um. What in the world? Yeah. That's terrifying. And in fact, um, when

36:35

I did baptisms for the dead, um, it was confirmed once, like I felt something and my adoptive mom was in the room when

36:43

I was, cause you do baptisms and you get confirmed for each person. Right. Um, she said that she could hear an audible, like, yes.

36:51

When the confirmation was happening. So. And so, but then that would have been the person who.

36:59

Was baptized for or something. Yeah. Yeah. So, and so that, and so in their theology, and so in their theology, it would make perfect sense to do ghost hunting or spirit hunting because they're, they're there.

37:13

Cause if, cause if they can get someone on the other side to tell you about spirit prison, like that, then all of a sudden it confirms their testimony.

37:19

Confirms their theology. Mormonism could spread around the world and all kinds of people get baptized for the dead proxy. Wow. It makes me wonder though.

37:27

So hopefully I'm not sidetracking too much, but. You're good. Like when, when do you progress to godhood and.

37:38

Get your own plan and kingdom. Sure. Is that after the resurrection or something? It's after the resurrection.

37:44

And actually they're in their theology, there's multiple resurrections too. Okay. Um, the faithful will get called forward in the first resurrection.

37:51

And then there's a second one. Everybody would be resurrected. In stages. In stages.

37:57

More than this. Yeah. And then, and, and, but there it's almost universal.

38:04

They're almost universalism though, in a way. Yeah. Because the only way you can truly go to what we as Christians would call hell is if you had an actual witness and denied it.

38:17

So the only really way to become a son of perdition is to actually physically see, like have the spirit be like, here's

38:24

Jesus. And then you go, I don't believe. Or really. So in other words, that also would be, it would be applicable to ex -Mormons.

38:32

Like those are the ones who'd be eligible for it. Who would go to hell. Not even them, right?

38:37

No. Yeah. Not even that. That's what I've heard. We, I mean, rapists and stuff would go to the telestial kingdom.

38:44

Um, the lowest level. What about like, uh, apostates in the sense that they are actively seeking to destroy the

38:51

Mormon church in terms of preaching against them? Well, I would think. Missionaries will come down to where they're at and preach to them.

38:58

And hopefully later they'll get out of where they're at. Well, and that's the thing is if, and if you accept their theology in the afterlife, you actually get the terrestrial kingdom, which is the second one where what they say is in that kingdom is where Jesus reigns.

39:14

And you're basically like angels worshiping him for eternity. So my usual thing when

39:20

I'm talking like on the street with an LDS person, as I said, hear me out. I'm like, what?

39:25

And I said, so I know your theology and you, I'm going to tell you mine. I said that I'm in really good shape. And they're like, well, what do you mean?

39:31

I said, so here's the deal. If you're right and I'm wrong, then you're going to do my work for me when

39:37

I die. I guarantee you are. And if I'm staring at it in the face, there's no way I'm saying no. So I'll say yes.

39:43

I'll end up in the terrestrial kingdom where I'll be worshiping Jesus for all eternity as an angel. And they're like, okay.

39:49

And I said, so, and if I'm right where I'm at right now, then that sounds a lot like my heaven.

39:56

I'm like, but let me tell you the flip side on that. If I'm right and you're wrong, then

40:03

I'm still in that heaven and you're in hell. I'm like,

40:10

I have the better of the two situations. Just from a logical standpoint, I have the better of those two situations.

40:19

Yeah. And it's unique to me. In fact, James White has a story where he was back during the earlier heyday of Alpha and Omega Ministries, where he handed out a track to someone.

40:30

The guy does the classic, you know, they take the track, they grab it, you know, imagine this photo is a track flips around, you know, they want to say, oh, wait, who's this from?

40:37

Then he looks back and looks at him and just go to hell. And he said, this guy said that to James White and James White says, well, sir, according to your theology,

40:44

I can't. And the guy goes, oh, he got it. He got flustered because he knew it.

40:52

He knew it was true. But it does make sense. But another serious story when it comes to like the seriousness of it.

40:58

That's when, to answer your question, that's when they, that's because when that resurrection happens is when the judgment happens and then you get your kingdom of glory.

41:07

But what's crazy about the telestial thing and there not being a hell is Joseph Smith is actually quoted as saying, if you could understand the glory of the telestial kingdom, which is that lowest level, right.

41:18

You would be killing yourself to get there. Yeah. But yeah. Wow. Yeah.

41:24

So when you're talking about, you know, the work that they do with the dead, and we were talking earlier about the verses, the scripture mastery cards, they'll memorize the verse in first Corinthians 15 about why they're not baptized for the dead.

41:36

But in many ways, it does make sense that even having sort of those supernatural encounters, in many ways, it reinforces what they believe in what they're doing.

41:44

James White has a story he's only told a couple of times and hopefully I do it justice, but he somehow wasn't, it was himself and maybe it was

41:54

Rich Pierce or someone involved with Alpha and Omega Ministries at the time. They're talking, they got invited over to this Mormon couple's house.

42:00

They're going back and forth. They're going over different scripture verses. And apparently they could tell there's a girl, maybe 12, 13, 14 years old.

42:09

He was in sort of upstairs intently listening in. And finally she came down and she said,

42:15

I just want to just tell you something, something that I experienced. And I've heard you guys talking back and forth a whole lot, a young girl.

42:22

And she said, well, I was being baptized for the dead. And while I was down there,

42:27

I saw that while I was being baptized and I saw a bunch of these like angelic beings sort of like elevated above the baptismal font.

42:36

And as I got baptized, they would smile and they would like float off and that kept on happening.

42:44

But all of a sudden they brought me out of the baptismal font. They were two sort of spiritual being and they look sad like they have been missed.

42:53

And she told the person who was directing the baptism because they used to go through a list because of the genealogies. And she said,

42:59

I want to like, no, no, you need to double check. And the person was sure, no, we covered all of them.

43:05

She has no double checked again. And sure enough, they had missed two slots, two names, and there are two spirit beings that they saw.

43:12

So they went back to her, baptized her twice for those people, those spirit beings left off. So it's interesting as she told this whole story to James and whoever was with him.

43:22

And she just said, you can quote, you can show me every false prophecy. You can show me anything that you want.

43:30

I saw that and I know the church is true. And she walked back upstairs. And I remember it was like James said it in such a way that like, and it's still,

43:38

I guess he's like, that stays with me to this day. Like that sort of conversation. I bring that up to say that those experiences are like, there is an unseen realm.

43:48

There is something that's going on there. And that's something we need to be able to embrace and not shy away from because there is a precedent now as Christians to where we can explain and make sense of that.

43:59

Well, and we, and we know that even Satan can masquerade as an angel of light. And why would he not be happy or why would he not do something like that to fully convince somebody further?

44:12

I mean, yeah, you know. Wow. So, okay. So yeah, continue, continue with your story on now.

44:17

We know that it's okay. No, it is perfectly okay. Nothing wrong with ghost hunting.

44:23

So you joined TAPS in a specific. Yeah, I was an EVP. Yeah. And I was their

44:29

EVP tech, which that is the person who handles what they call electronic, electric voice phenomenon or the audio side of things.

44:39

Yeah. And all we used with these little RCA recorders, we were like, well, did you have like this high tech equipment? No, we had like little

44:45

RCA things that you record like lectures on. So you don't take notes. And then we just took it up to a computer and listen to it.

44:53

And that's usually where you would hear it. And I actually, one time,

44:58

I can't tell you where it is because we sign agreements with places that the businesses can release it, but we can't release where we were.

45:06

It was a restaurant. I can say that, but we, it was an older place up in. And so we're sitting around in Idaho in these areas where it's like old west is what made this.

45:16

So I was trying to figure out age of ghost. What's really interesting though, is through doing the ghost hunting, 90 % of what people think is paranormal can be explained.

45:26

Right. I'll put that up. Interesting debunking. You say 90%. Oh yeah. Wow. Oh yeah.

45:32

We'd like walk in there like this door normally opens and we'd walk and you could also fill a loose floorboard and maybe like stomp on it and the door opens and we're like, you mean that they're like, yeah, you need to fix your floor.

45:46

That's all it is. But yeah, I would say 90%. But there was the occasional thing.

45:53

And I got. Was this a hobby? Were you being paid? It was a hobby. So, okay.

45:59

You'd go to work and then you'd go. Yeah. Do like a three day weekend. Yeah. Or something like that.

46:04

Research going to these sites. Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. Well, it's just, it's also just one of those things too.

46:09

When you think about even the aspect of like four people who are fortune tellers or mediums, there's a lot of people who are kind of, it'd be sort of the sleight of hand con artist,

46:18

David Copperfield sort of, you know, David Blaine sort of thing going on. But then, but then at the same time though, there are people who are really giving accurate information and there's no, there's nothing in the physical room that can explain why they have the knowledge of what they do.

46:35

You know, it's always good to differentiate between that, but there is that sort of 80, 20 when it comes to that.

46:40

Yeah. For sure. Definitely. And so, and this one I actually get, I got teased for, for the whole time

46:47

I was with the group. So when you'd ask him questions, what a lot of people would do, that was a mistake when they'd go on is they just rapid fire questions.

46:56

The problem is you're not leaving any space for an answer. So one of the things that the taps would teach you is you ask a question, they'll leave space for a response.

47:04

You ask a question just as if I was talking, it's a natural flow. Well, I was trying to figure out age for this ghost.

47:12

And so I asked, well, did you have a horse or did you have a car? Because this would tell me something.

47:18

And then I said, and then left a space, nothing. And then I said, if you had a horse, what did you call it?

47:24

Notice I said, call it, but I didn't say name it. Clear his day on the tape.

47:31

After that, I called it a horse and I got made fun of for the rest of the time because it was like, you see the ghost sitting there going, what do you think

47:39

I called it? A sheep. I called it a horse.

47:46

So you laugh. I'd be terrified. Well, at the time, I mean, now, you know,

47:51

I quote joy. If you want, do you want demons? That's how you get demons. But back then it was like, and they, the team teased me about it for mercilessly.

48:04

Why didn't you say name? Did you, did you ever have a terrifying experience while doing that? A lot of it was terrifying.

48:11

I'm looking back at it now. I didn't really realize it at the time, but I wasn't because you're, you're dabbling with demons ultimately.

48:19

Yeah. No screeches or scratches or anything like that. Screeches, screams, no scratches.

48:27

One time it felt really weird, but that was actually due to a non -paranormal event.

48:33

Someone had really had built, it was an older house and they had a shield. They hadn't shielded like hardly any of their wiring.

48:40

Oh, okay. So EMP is real. And like you go down there and it was just like,

48:46

I'm like, you're like, I really feel oppressed down there. I'm like, no, you're feeling electric pulses going through your body.

48:51

You need to fix that. That is awful. That's good. Well, I'm going to, people are going to be mad.

48:58

I remember when we did the exorcism of Kristen Bell with me and we kind of left it on the cliffhanger. Like we're just starting to get to the good ghost hunting stuff, but we're kind of around the 55 minute mark.

49:07

So what we're going to do is we're going to, we're going to hold off. We're going to take a five minute break. Everyone else, unfortunately is going to have to wait a week, but we are going to just take a quick break.

49:16

We'll jump right back. We'll kind of get into the real meat and potatoes of the ghost hunting and how that related to your time being in Mormonism, which eventually bled out.

49:26

We'll definitely, we'll definitely unravel that. So appreciate you hanging out with us. It's great. Thank you guys for hosting us.

49:31

This is fantastic. This is awesome. Mission Church, rich and Bradley over here helping us all the time.

49:38

And definitely just, I mean, just being, being here in Utah, you kind of have that, like we're in, we're in the hornet's nest.

49:44

So I love it. Behind enemy lines. Yes. All right. So if you guys really enjoyed this episode, go ahead and please share this episode.

49:52

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50:00

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50:08

You can donate one time or become a monthly partner. Either way, if you choose to do either one, thank you so much.

50:14

And on that note, we will talk to you guys next week on cultists where we talk about Mormonism and ghost hunting.