Cultish - Confessions of a Mormon Ghost Hunter, Pt. 2

Ghost Hunting as a Mormon Practice

All right. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to Cultist Entering the Kingdom of the Cults. My name is Jeremiah Roberts, one of the co-hosts here. Here with Andrew, the super sleuth of the show. I'm here with Brother Wade.

Good to see you both back. We've had a long week in Utah, and we are wrapping things up with a little epic two-part podcast talking about Mormons, swing dancing, ghost hunting, all the above. Getting very, very interesting.

A whole broad variety of topics. So we're here with Jared Fawcett. Good to see you again, man. Welcome back. For everyone else, for us, it's kind of like Narnia. It's a longer time there versus wherever you do it.

Somehow, the time zones are off. But for us, it was five minutes. For y 'all, it was a week. Or maybe if you're watching this, you get to watch the whole thing together, however we put it on film. But all that being said, we're jumping right back into the podcast.

People started getting intrigued. Now, we've made it for a week, so I don't want people hating on me any much longer. So we're back, and we are talking about ghost hunting and just jumping back into it.

So just tell us a little bit more about the times being there. Go ahead.

So with ghost hunting, we would go out usually weekly, and places would reach out to us. What our team was known as is the Idaho Spirit Seekers, was the name of it. But it was a TAPS organization. Just places would reach out.

Some businesses would release the names and everything afterwards. It's really up to them because some places will end up losing business because it's haunted. Some places will actually gain business because it's haunted.

But they have to play that role accordingly. We would just go out, and like I said, I was listening, and then I'd spend a decent chunk of my week listening to hours upon hours of audio, listening for voices and.

Unexplained sounds. Trying to hear things through like the white noise at different frequencies.

Bunch of white noise. Yeah. That movie. Sorry. I understand. Is it bad? Yeah. Don't watch it. As a Christian, I can tell you it's too real. It's too on point. Wow. It was so on point that when it was actually for my birthday, me and my adoptive mom, we actually went and saw it.

This was while I was ghost hunting and doing those things. While watching it, I'm like, that was actually a weird experience. You had asked me about a weird experience. That was weird because I was watching it, and there was like evil spirits in that movie.

The temperature in the room dropped in the movie theater, and no matter how hot they would turn it up, it stayed cold. Wow. Stuff like that. I was like, I don't like this. This is too close to reality.

This is not. At least the spirits I was dealing with, I know they're demons now, but at least they weren't usually overly hostile. They were just talking versus that movie that was like, I don't like this at all.

Well, yeah. You think about it too. There's a lot of stories about when they're filming The Exorcist, a lot of really strange things happened on the set, which does make sense because regardless, it doesn't really matter the theology of the person who's opening that door.

If you are practicing something, regardless of your intentions, it's bad news. That's just the way that God made things. God created all things visible and invisible. It's like the law of gravity. You cross over into this path, regardless of your intentions, something else is going to be.

On the other side, or at least opening up a portal as to yourself. Yeah. I had a really good time with the brothers. It was mostly men. We had a few women in the group too. We would go everywhere. Some of the longer trips were clear to Wyoming, but a lot of them were more close.

We had Twin Falls or Soda Springs in areas that were around Pocatello that we would go to a lot of the times and do those. Like I said, 90 of what people would consider paranormal is debunked just to save the audience.

If you think you have a haunting, look for loose floorboards or get yourself an EMP meter. They're actually fairly cheap. See how much is running in your house. If you have an.

Older house, you might need a show dryer. Yeah. This reminds me of when I was in high school. I had a little band and we were looking for a new drummer. We went to the drummer's house to practice. We walked in and they had a garage that they had even walled off and put drywall in for practicing for their kid.

We were considering making this kid our new drummer for our band. We walk in and the family goes, we're glad you're here. We don't want to alarm you, but we tell everyone who comes in here, we do have two ghosts that live in our home.

One is a small boy and he's very friendly. He'll just come up to you every once in a while. Don't be too worried about him. Then there's the older man who can really try to frighten you. He loves to really frighten and trick and even put on new faces for newer people.

We also don't recommend you sleep over for a while until they get used to you. Me and my other band members were like, what are we doing here? We ended up practicing a little bit. The things you'll sacrifice for a practice space?

Yeah. I was in a band. This is really nice. I don't want that ghost coming out. Your stories remind me of that. Well, I have all this in their daily life. I guess some people believe or they do have some sort of.

Demonic spirit living with them. I don't know. I've been in places where I can honestly say that they're probably being oppressed. It's darker, it's colder and they'll have religious people come and pray over the home and then it's better.

I have a question too because you're.

Talking about how 90 of this stuff is debunked, but there's something about the frequencies or the EMPs that is somehow able to track what is going on or at least seeing the barrier between the seen and the unseen realm.

Of all things, what's the uniqueness behind EMPs or those.

It just senses? You have electromagnetic fields in any room. It's really bad. That's why a lot of people will experience issues if they live right underneath power lines. If you live right underneath a power line, that's usually bad because those are unshielded wires.

It can give you headaches. Headaches make you feel sick. People have hallucinated. Interesting. It's a level, but there's 10 that you just can't explain. That's why they would call us. What's this 10

If you watch Ghost Hunters or watch any of those shows, that's where they'd be like, well, we heard this voice, we heard this thing. That's what we got from it. If you are experiencing voices, I can honestly tell you, you should probably just have your pastor come and pray over the house.

Don't mess around with that stuff. Don't provoke. That's why I have a tough time talking. Some people who've been around me, even here, they're like, I didn't even know you were a ghost hunter. I'm like, I don't really talk about it a lot because some people can get overly fascinated with it.

Then they're like,.

I want to go do it. That's what we're doing here. We're not trying to exalt. Hey, by the way, this is brought to you by www .ghosthuntingutah .com or whatever. If that.

Ends up being a website, don't go to that. There is ghost hunting groups in Utah.

There probably are. What we're trying to do, and I think we've done this before previously with cultists, is that, especially whether you're talking to someone who's in the new age or someone who comes out of it, is that you have to be able to make sense of a point of reference because if you just say, well, this is just all in your head and you're making this up, that's going to lose any sort of relatability of what they went through or if you're talking to someone in the new age.

We can understand that there's an explainable basis for why this was appealing.

Mormonism, the Occult, and the Appeal of Ghost Hunting

For you in Mormonism. Oh, it was totally appealing. The thing is, it was totally accepted too. Nobody warned against it. Their big thing was, well, as long as you're praying before you do it and you pray after, so you don't have anything following you.

Any type of experience that you can relate to making Mormonism true is a good thing. Yeah, and where the spirit realm is here, it makes perfect sense. If you read in the Old Testament, and I can't remember which person it was who was like, I want to go back and warn people, and they're like, well, you can't speak to the living.

Oh, Luke 16, the rich man and Lazarus.

Yeah, you can't speak to living, you're dead. Reading that now, I go, okay, well, there's no possibilities that I was actually speaking to anything other than a demonic force, and it helps me know that.

Or even that girl who is seeing the faces of angels.

Yeah, and there's something too, especially

Well, if she was seeing a real angel, she'd be really afraid.

Yes, most definitely. I'll be a little scared too.

You notice that every time an angel appears in the Bible, the first thing that they always say, no matter what, is, be not afraid. It's because they don't look nice. So if they appear, it's like, demon, demon, demon, be not afraid.

Or just super holy, and you know it's

I think that's one reason that you don't have, I mean, being a cessationist, I think that's one reason that God doesn't really use the angels as much anymore, because he doesn't want to scare people off.

Right, right. No, that's interesting, man. I think also, like I said, we're just looking, we're giving, like I said, we're acknowledging the fact that there's an unseen realm, but I think also, you know, going into your story, and I'm curious to see where it unravels, is that there is a lot of tense, whether it's in the New Age or in your particular case, almost a sort of pride and identity in the fact that I have the ability to sort of contact this 10 of what is legit.

I have this ability to detect it, so therefore I'm something special. In the same way, people who have the ability to astral project or lucid dream, or to be able to do mediumship and be a captain and have knowledge about something, really thinking it's something of themselves, that's actually because you are unknowingly really a slave to the unseen realm as far as the hostile side of the aisle is concerned.

Yeah, and that's true, and there was,.

There was definitely pride in that. Yeah. And at the time, I mean, I have a conviction, I really don't talk about it because, like I said, I don't want to encourage, but at the time, oh yeah, I'm like, oh yeah, I'm an EVP tech, yeah, go do this, I would brag about it, yeah.

Yeah. I talk, yeah, oh, do you want to see some of the clips? You know, and you'd be like, dude, listen to this, check this out, and hear, oh, did you hear that voice? Did you hear him say yes?

Did you hear that name? Did you hear? Yeah. So, did you continue to do this, or was there a point.

Kind of like, well, I'm stronger, there was a point where, so there, we went and saw, it was like this abandoned warehouse building, it was an older building in a town, and it was just a really dark place, and it actually made me kind of give up that whole thing because I just was, it reminded me too much of the thing that kept playing in the back of my head.

Wow. And I was like, okay, I am, like, I'm okay. You could justify a lot of it when you were going into houses and things like that because you were helping families. Like, these people were honestly scared, and they're turning to you for answers and help, and you're like, okay, I'm helping people, but just going into, like, abandoned buildings or something like that and doing it was like, who are we helping?

Yeah. And having that dark force, that's what ended up getting me out of that was, it was almost a replay of 1516 again. Was there, like, a kind of a rush doing this stuff?

Oh, a total rush. Exhilarating. Because you were obviously still kind of frightened sometimes,.

I would imagine. Yeah, but you did get those adrenaline rushes when you would catch something. Like, it's almost, you know, like when you're playing Clue and you get the right answer. It's a mystery, and you're getting it, and you're like, okay, no, I'm making progress.

It was Colonel Mustard! And you would get better at it, too, because you'd get to the point where like, because some of what you would hear on the audio was very faint, and when you first start out, you'd skip over that because you wouldn't hear it.

You'd get to the point where you could, like, pick out the faintest thing, and then you'd, like, magnify it and be like, it's right here.

From Ghost Hunting to Mormonism’s New Age Ties

Yeah. And something I've always wondered is, like, you know, sometimes when you're looking for something, you'll find it. So, did you ever feel like, whether it was you or someone else investigating on your team, and, you know, someone hears something, or a door closed, or whatever, you know, there's just this overwhelming excitement, or a desire to want to produce,.

I want something to occur. Oh, we would definitely want something to occur, and we'd set up cameras, like, we had, like, infrared cameras going through everywhere we had, and that was a big thing, is you're sitting at the station, like, when you weren't out recording, watching the cameras, you're like, come on.

Did you guys ever bring in, like, Ouija boards, or try to do seance? No. So, was that, like, a complete no-no? So, even in the LDS theology, Ouija boards are, like, negative, really bad, like, they're considered playing with the devil.

Were your team members a lot of diversity? Oh, a lot of them were LDS. So, was there ever any inconsistency,.

Just kind of going along, and then, obviously, you know, we know there's a history behind Joseph Smith and his use of the occult. He was tried and convicted for glass looking, and his whole family was famous for their treasure digging.

I mean, he almost, I'm thinking of, like, those classic, like, Red Dead Redemption 2 posters of the old businesses, of so-and-so saloon, or whatever, but imagine, like, this 1800s version of, like, Smith's family treasure digging, you know?

Yeah. But, yeah, that's what he was famous and known for, but was there ever a time, as you're doing this, I mean, like, that sort of being a problem, as far as just the inconsistency.

With that? Well, no, and I think... I'm doing what the prophet did. Yeah, yeah. This is something that's just totally normal. Like, occultism and spirituality and that kind of stuff is, like, New Age has a big foothold in Mormonism.

Like, Law of Attraction is considered to be, like, a gold standard within the Mormonism thing. So, almost, like, the frequencies and using those frequencies would have been, like, your Uma Thurman? Yeah.

Yeah, like, having a seer stone to see it and translate it. I mean, that... Did you say Uma Thurman? I love her.

Just so you know, too, we just ate... We just went... We just did a scarf through two pieces, and it's probably... It's a little later than we expected. So, we're, like... Sorry, everyone.

So, hey. But, yeah. So, when I did that, it's... So, when I did leave and end up leaving Ghost Hunting behind, I mean, I still watched the shows. I still was, you know, heavily, like, into that world, but I just didn't participate because, like, I just don't want to...

I will say when I was watching the shows, the people I respected more were the people who had a respect for it. And if that makes sense, then, like, Ghost Adventures on Travel Channel, I absolutely hated those guys because they were, like, constantly, like, provoking and, like, calling and I'm, like, you guys are dumb.

Yeah. Don't. Overly cinematic. I'm, like, just... Yeah. Well, and it was what Wade was saying. If you really want something to happen, it will happen. And if you're calling... If you're provoking demonic forces, just wait.

Yeah. And things were always happening to him, and I'm, like, well, it's because you're dumb. But the ones I respected the most were actually the Tennessee Wraith Chasers, and I still don't know how they deal with the inconsistencies because these guys are all, like, Southern, like, Christian boys.

Hmm. And they even, like, prayed to Jesus and, like, they actually did a ghost hunt of the exorcist house that they filmed it at. And, like, during... And they did an exorcism there of the house on, like, a Halloween and stuff.

And I was, like, I don't know how you are... How you reconcile. How you're reconciling it, but I can at least respect the fact that you're trying to do this from a somewhat Christian angle. Right. But, of course, this is before I would say it, but I'm, like, I can see y 'all are trying.

But... And then I ended up... So when I left there, I got really... Trying to find my group again. I was still LDS, but I ended up kind of going inactive at that point because the group I hung around and kind of my claim to fame was ghost hunting.

Right? Yeah. That was my claim to fame. And I was no longer a ghost hunter. So I went inactive. Anyway, so I had... I joined this motorcycle group. And one of the guys in town who's the chaplain for the POWMIA group, his name's Rev.

He's what he goes by. It's his road name. He picked the right road name to go by. And that's why everybody calls him as Rev. And the reason why it's a good name is his actual name is Jim Jones, unfortunately.

Right. Are you telling us that? Yeah. We don't want to go by that. Yeah. So he goes by Rev. But he started a church there and he was hosting a blessing of the bikes. He does it every year where he blesses all of the motorcycles of everybody who rides.

It's like, you know, keep them safe. Keep them running. Yeah. Let's not have anything. And so I went with my group, not expecting anything because I'm just like, yeah, I'll go. Why not? Yeah. Because at that point it was post Gordon B Hinckley coming out.

And so Mormonism was pretty open to, oh, we can just go to other faiths and just do things occasionally. No big deal. You know, that was the thing. And when he blessed that bike, I felt a spirit off of him that I hadn't felt like for a long time.

And I was like, wait, you're not Mormon. Yeah. You don't have that stuff. Yeah. And I kind of had that too. Um, after this whole experience too, um, a family had come over that my dad's became really good friends with cause they, he was getting his PhD in political science on there from Cameroon and he was a Baptist from Cameroon.

And I remember one day, like he kind of did this too. His car broke down. His auto trans float had dropped out of his car right in the middle of this thing. And I'm sitting there and I'm mad for him. Cause I'm like, wow, that sucks.

And he's like, praise God. And I'm like, what? He goes, he's like, praise God. It happened here in the driveway and not on the freeway where I'm here safe. It's all good. Right. And I'm buddy, what kind of faith do you have?

I'm like, I'd be kicking the car. I'd be mad. Yeah. You're just, oh, praise God. It happened here. Okay. But that happened. And then I meet up with Rev and then I was like, okay, well there's something different here.

And everybody liked to call his church, the biker church. And the reason why is there was more Harley's in the parking lot than there were cars. And so, and everybody was in every, and it was come as you are.

So everybody would come in their cuts, which is the leather vest that you see them wear. So everybody came in their cuts. And it was also known that no matter what allegiances you had it, once you were in there, everybody was cool with everybody.

Um, this was in Idaho. Yeah. So I went there. Um, and that's where, um, I responded to an altar call. Um, one, one time when he's like, Hey, who, who needs to be saved? Like, raise your hand. Right. And I just remember going, and I'm like, get down there.

Like, why are you up? Right. Like that doesn't happen. I'm good. I'm a Mormon dude. Like what's my hand doing up? And I prayed. And I remember like feeling like this weight taken off, um, after, and I was like, okay, well, I'm just going to get involved here.

Um, and I actually ended up becoming his worship pastor for a year and doing music and writing. Well, it's just interesting too, that you mentioned how,.

You know, with all your time of ghost something that you sort of had this awareness and sensitivity to the unseen realm. And this is just indicative of people that we've talked to who are in the alcohol is that they just, they have a sensitivity to it.

And while they haven't, they all initially have it because they were, they, they crossed over and it's something they shouldn't have done, but even in spite, it's always, you know, God always uses and works all things out together for good, especially, you know, that being of the reform tradition for sure.

But I think that is very unique that you had sort of the sensitivity that there was a, there was a sort of like a releasing of the white noise upon this blessing.

And that's, and I, and I, and that's probably what I probably was being impressed pretty good at that point. And then, um, and, but, um, I ended up not staying. Um, so my wife and kit, my, I, we had just had my middle son at that point and they were young.

Um, they were, her Bishop was basically telling her to leave me. Um, and she was feeling like a single mom because she was taking them to the LDS church. She was still LDS. Right. And I was a worship pastor over here and doing all of this and really involved.

I wish, um, I used to joke with all the Mormons in town. Cause they'd be like, you have to go to church for three hours. I'm like, what would that be like? I'm like, my Sundays are like 12 hours long because we'd go and we do a rehab facility and then we do, um, our service was like three or four.

And then we actually had another service for the women's prison that night. So we would go up, up there and do that. And so then I get home like three hours, be nice. Right. I don't know what that's like.

Right. But, uh, so she was going to leave. So she was going to leave. Um, and then I actually saw a talk by a Brad Wilcox that sounded a lot like what Christian grace is. Um, and I said, well, maybe there's a spot for me to go back.

And so I ended up going back. Oh, going back to the LDS church. Yeah. Um, Mike, maybe there's a spot for me. Cause that was, that was the one thing that I really thought that they had wrong was grace.

That was my kind of sticking factor. Yeah. So the LDS church was wrong, but then you heard Brad Wilcox and I'm like, maybe there's, maybe they're softening up. Maybe there's room. Maybe I understood it wrong.

Um, cause what he, I, I always say, I would love to be able to sit in a room with him for like an hour and just like talk about grace because I think he's on the right path. He's actually the perfect, he's actually the head of like the religious studies or whatever at BYU.

He's one of the chairs and I'm like, I'd love to get you in a room. Cause I'm like, you're, you're really close to, you're, you're, you're, you're really close. Uh, but I ended up going back. Um, and then we moved down here for a job.

Um, and we were down here for about two years in Utah. Uh, we were down and then I started getting the pole again and it all is around music. Um, like I said, music always played a huge role in everything in my life.

Um, we never stopped listening to Caleb cause I was really into that music cause I was a worship pastor. This is what we listened to. Contemporary Christian music. Contemporary Christian. That was the thing.

Um, and uh, the rock and road show was coming into town and so the $10 ticket for compassion international, but we're talking, we have Matthew West for king and country, uh, social club, misfits, Amy Grant, like big names, big names, skillet.

No. Although I have seen them live. Yeah. But when I saw them live, um, they were performing with seven dust and um, like, yeah, it was seven dust skillet. Uh, and like, Oh, I can't remember the other two pop evil was one of them that they were performing with.

And, and that was only like a year or so ago. Yeah. It was actually a decent show. Um, John Cooper. Awesome. Yeah. Um, noble cookies here. Uh, but, uh, they, so we went to that and I felt again, that connection, that spirit went, okay, I'm not feeling that anywhere.

So, uh, weird enough how I got turned on to the first Christian church I went to after that point was actually from a Mormon who's really extremely open theist. He actually went to Yale and got a theology degree.

Hmm. I don't know why he would do that as an LDS member because you, they don't have paid clergy. I'm like, why would you, why would you go into debt to get a theology degree you're not going to use it.

Um, and he was actually working on the Joseph Smith papers and everything too. And he's like, he listened to me and he goes, huh? He's like, there's this place called center point. He's like, I think those are your people.

He's like, I don't think the LDS are your people really just, he's like hearing you. He's like, he's like, but he was like really open. Like he was like almost pantheistic. Like he was kind of in the Buddhism and he was kind of in this and this and this and this.

And he's like, no, these are your people. Like, yeah. He's like, these are your people. Just go, go, go be with your people. Okay. So I went, um, and told my wife, I'm like, I'm just going to do both, but I want to go for the music and cause they did contemporary Christian worship.

Went, love the music, love the message. And then we went to sacrament meeting that day. Um, it was right after, so I go to first service there and then go to sacrament meeting, sitting in a side pew and they do sacrament or communion every sacrament meeting.

That's why they meet because you actually renew your baptismal covenants. That's how you get rid of your sin is by taking. So, um, our row got skipped with the water out of nowhere. And that's really rare because bishops usually watch to make sure everybody gets it or those who aren't supposed to take it.

Cause if you're in sin, you're actually not supposed to take it. So they're watching to make sure that those people don't take it. And that the people who are supposed to take it, get it. Yeah. So our row gets skipped.

He totally misses it, but pretty much clear as day. I, the scripture comes to my mind. That's like, I am the living water. And I had prayed before that. I said, God, tell me what to do. And I don't care what it is.

Just let me know dangerous prayers. If you're going to pray these things, just expect things to happen. And, and I was like, I'm a living water and I went, oh, okay. Now I know what you're telling me.

And I don't know though. I'm like, I'm still gonna do both. I'm like, I'm in Utah County. I can't do this. I'm going to do both. And so I went back and second time I went, um, is when I met with the senior pastor there and basically got the impression that's like, and I want you to do what he's doing.

And I went, and then me and God had an argument because I went, no, no, no, no, no. I don't want to be doing what he's doing because if I'm doing what he's doing, that means I have to speak. I can't do both.

If I have to speak, I can't be in the back. If I have to speak. And of course we all know who wins those, those fights. Yeah. God wins. Um, and, and I remember, um, driving back to the sacrament meeting.

Um, and that's when all in by Matthew West, I don't know if you're familiar with the song, um, was just getting big on Caleb, but basically he talks about how he stepped on middle ground and how he can't do that anymore.

He has to jump into the deep end and go all in like there's no, there's no fear in this. And I was like, you can't serve two masters. Yeah. And that's what I'm sitting there going. So I'm driving to sacrament meeting.

Wow. Thanks. Yeah. That was the last sacrament meeting I attended. I attended and that told my wife, I couldn't go to the priesthood meeting afterwards. Cause I was like, I just can't went home. And I just told my wife, I said, Hey, I'm done.

I can't, um, weird enough with that though. Um, I met with my pastor, the guy who I was a pastor with in Idaho, his worship pastor. Um, and we, we've been talking to him like, Hey, I'm out. And by the grace of God, this time my wife and my kids got pulled out as well.

And I was talking, we met for lunch. Um, we met halfway and he's actually the one that gave me this ring that I wear. Um, it has in God, we trust on it. It's actually made from a coin. And, uh, I, we were talking and he said, you know, it's really good.

He's really good. I'm really glad to see you. And I'm like, well, what do you mean? He goes, I've been praying ever since you went back in. Cause I knew you were supposed to be in ministry. I was praying for you to get out and get back in the ministry.

And I'm like, Oh, it's your fault. Oh, and everything just played out exactly the way you wanted it to sit there with, you know, big old grin, like a cat that just ate a Canary. Um, yeah. Um, but, and so, you know, from that point, um, and then I also had a wavering, uh, and then from that, we started telling our parents, um, things like that.

Weird enough, my parents, uh, I reached out to my niece who's actually Wiccan. Um, when everything went down because she's been pretty accepted by the family. And so I reached out to her as kind of like, Hey, how did you do this to not disrupt everything?

Cause you're not LDS. So how did, how did this work out? Well, she ended up telling my brother everything who ended up telling my whole family. So I didn't have a chance to tell them you trusted a Wiccan.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so everything blew up in my face there. Um, and there was a big period of like disownment. Um, and then my wife told her parents and there was that whole issue. I ended up losing my job.

Um, cause I was at a company that was founded by three BYU graduates. The company was like 98 LDS and they just made it really awkward after I left to the point where they just basically pushed me out.

Um, and I lost all my friend groups that I had just gone. So it costs you everything. It costs me everything, except for my family, except for my immediate family. Um, but I can't, I can't remember who said it.

I think it might've been Spurgeon who said, you'll never understand what having Christ is like until it's the only thing you have. And I can tell you it's all worth it, but you don't know what it is until it's the only thing that you have.

And I think it's just an experience that, you know, if you don't sometimes as Christians, we can take Christ for granted, right? As you were talking about in the Q and a, we're not thankful for our salvation and that can be an issue.

Um, when it's all you have, you're truly thankful for it. Cause it's all you have to be thankful for everything else. You're like, I'm not thankful for anything else except for this. That's the only thing I have to be thankful for.

Cause that's it. Um, and it was tough and, and I, I wavered. I actually thought about going back cause I was like, it's just not like it's worth it, but I can't, I don't know if I can sustain. Um, and that's actually how I got connected with Apologia, um, was Jeff's, uh, gospel for Mormons video.

Um, I seen a couple of his things and pulled that up on YouTube and I don't think I pulled it up. I think that I would honestly, hand of God providence, watch this. And after hearing the gospel and the LDS gospel put side by side and some comparing contrasted, I saw, well now wavering is done.

And I showed my wife, I said, watch this. And she's like, and she had just, she had just barely came out. She came out a little bit after me. Um, and she had been wavering and she's like, you know what?

I don't like some of what he said. Cause she still had that thinking, but she's like, yeah, but I can't anything he said. Yeah. Wavering is done for you too. Right. Yeah. Um, and then just went headlong, uh, and through his providence through his grace, like he just connected me with and surrounded me with people that became my family.

Um, since then me and my family, we, we've gotten closer. They'll talk to me about, um, things now, but I, I think it would have went over better if I could explain to myself in the beginning. Right. Yeah.

But I wasn't able to, and instead it just came across as, Oh, he's just doing this thing where he wants to be a preacher.

Now. Didn't you say they, uh, you know, at the time they treated your Wiccan relative better,.

Better than you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is interesting. Um, I think, I think, I think a lot of LDS communities, a lot of LDS members who leave, we'll have that experience. Um, I think if you're atheist, it's not as bad for them because they feel like you're gone and they can possibly save you from that.

But if they can, the light of Christ is hard to fight against. It's like a betrayal to them. Yeah. Well, and they, and they know that if they were to try to win you back, it would be very, very difficult because they can see the light and they're like, wow, if I'm going to have to, I'm gonna have to get that.