An Interview with my Apologetics Professor (Dr. Khaldoun Sweis)

Welcome back to another episode of Revealed Apologetics. I'm your host, Eli Ayala, and today I have a very special guest, which I will be introducing in just a few moments. But if you're wondering, like, wow, another live stream, what's going on?

Remember, I am blessed with a wonderful job. I am a teacher. I teach, well, I taught high school this last, this past school year, and now I'll be moving into the dangerous realm of middle school. If you guys are familiar with working with students, middle school students are, let's just say, that's a horse of another color, as they say in the Wizard of Oz.

So I'm definitely looking forward to doing that, but I am blessed with a wonderful schedule. So I have off during the summer. So if you're wondering why I'm just, you know, shooting out the content there, it's because I have the time.

So I'm really grateful to be able to do this. Well, I am super excited to introduce my guest today, who, if you noticed on the thumbnail, my guest was my former apologetics professor. I completed two master's degrees at Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary.

My first master's was a master of arts and theological studies. My second was a master of divinity with a theological focus. And one of my favorite classes, believe it or not, my top two favorite classes, surprise, surprise, apologetics.

And interestingly enough, and maybe this is something we can leave for another episode. But my other favorite class was the history of the Baptists, which I did not think I would even care about. I thought it was just mandatory because it was a Baptist seminary.

So, and ironically, the professor, not the professor of the class, but the lectures I had to watch was given by none other than the controversial Ergin Kanner. So we won't step into that, but hey, regardless, it was excellent.

I learned a lot. And so, but apologetics, you guys know this is where my heart is. So without further ado, I'd like to just kind of share a little bit about my guest, Dr. Khaldun Swice. Dr. Swice specializes in life coaching and we'll kind of talk to him about that.

That's super interesting. And we'll kind of unpack that for you guys, but he specializes in life coaching, apologetics, Christian thought, philosophy of religion, and philosophy of mind. Khaldun is a committed Christian, obviously, right?

Theology, philosophy, ethics, logic, cutting edge research in psychology, science, and even literature, movies and pop culture are all tools he uses to help people find the meaning and purpose and joy in their life.

And I'm looking forward to kind of unpacking some of that with him too, because there's some interesting things to explore there. He's well-known for his book, Debating Christian Theism, which is published by Oxford University Press and co-edited with philosophers, J .P. Moreland and Chad Meister.

Swice earned his Bachelor of Arts in Philosophy at Eastern Illinois University and a Master in Philosophy from Trinity National University. And he's received his PhD from the University of Hull in the United Kingdom.

His dissertation was Philosophy of Mind and Cognitive Science. So a lot of interesting background there. Maybe we can talk a little bit about that and grab some really cool apologetic nuggets and some wisdom from his experience.

So without further ado, I'd like to invite on the screen with me, Dr. Khaldun Swice. How are you doing brother? It's an honor to be with you, Eli. Well, it is truly an honor to have you on the show. I mean, this is so cool.

I never thought I'd have the opportunity to actually have my old professor on my show. So it is an honor. Thank you so much. Did I miss anything? I mean, you have a lot of experience there and a lot of background.

Would you like to share anything else that I might've missed in that introduction? I think you covered the basics. That's good to go. Yeah. Okay. That's wonderful, yeah. All right, well, let's kick this off right away.

So what are you currently working on now? I mean, you look like you're a pretty busy guy. So I would imagine you're working on some pretty important stuff that I know you are passionate about and maybe you can kind of share with folks what that is.

It's sad when people are not doing what they're passionate about. So I always push in and focusing my life on that, which inspires me and equips me to help others do the same. Amen. Yeah. So in the last few years, especially after the pandemic, I've been focusing a lot on life coaching, Christian life coaching specifically, to help equip men to become more passionate, powerful, productive, and most of all, peaceful in their lives.

I found that actually grew a lot from my conversations in apologetics and theology, as I began to dive into questions of ontology and cosmology and others, but actually have behind them a troubled soul, a man who doesn't have any purpose, a man who's doing that, which does not inspire him.

And as a result, he's shriveling inside and affecting his family, his community, his wife, his kids. Everyone's feeling it. As men, we are powerful agents of change. And we also sadly can do the negative and the reverse part of that.

So that inspired me to help with men and to deal with men and help men get back on the track and do what God has inspired you to do in a strategic format.

So I've been doing that for the last couple of years and it's been invigorating. So do you work with people one-on-one? Do you give workshops to teach people how to be well-balanced and fulfilled Christians in this world?

I mean, what does that look like for you?

Yes, I do give seminars, workshops, and things of that nature. But I found that the most powerful work is done when an individual is able to see their own darkness or their own shadow or their own sin and be able to grow from that by unpacking that in themselves on a one-on-one conversations.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, okay, well, that's interesting. And I think it's interesting how you kind of extract, you've extracted that idea, the importance of that from your apologetic interactions and working with people.

That's interesting. So what comes to mind right away is the issue, really the controversial issue that went with Ravi Zacharias, where we saw someone who, I mean, I never followed his work, but when I did see videos or I read something, he had this persona of like a well-balanced, confident, morally high standing individual, yet he kind of had these inner demons that were, and we all know the story, we don't have to get into the details, but why do you think it's important for people who are in apologetics to deal with not just that external, how people perceive me, I'm an educator, I know the scriptures, I defend the faith.

Why is it so important to kind of take care of the outside and the inside as well? And how does that fit into your life coaching and the advice that you give people?

Right. A lot of times the persona we give on the outside is a shadow of the person we are on the inside. And we need to come to terms with that. And I don't know specifically with Ravi's story. I know a lot of the allegations were done by anonymous women, although it was done by investigative reporting by people who actually worked at the organization themselves and it's been devastating to his family.

I think the process of being true to yourself, if you're not able to be true to who you are in the inside and be real with that and have a group of people you can share that with authentically, unbelievable the kind of darkness and demons that can grow and fester in the background.

There's a, one of the most famous TV shows in the world is the Game of Thrones. And in there, they have these little dragons in the beginning of the show. They're little creatures that fit in the palm of your hand.

But these little beasts, if they're not taken care of and addressed when they're little, dealt with, grow into these, be these massive creatures that can wipe out cities. I think the same thing applies to our moral life.

If we're not dealing with the vices that are troubling us on an individual level, that little dragon, eh, no big deal, that can become a massive deal of a dragon that you will not be able to deal with on a long-term basis.

So I think that's one of the reasons we do need to address these issues with people that we love and trust around us. Unfortunately, a lot of men don't have that.

So when you're coaching maybe not just men in general, do you coach people who are in specifically in the field of apologetics or are those people the kind of people that, well, I really don't need that.

I'm the one that gives the advice to people. If you speak into the lives of people who are engaged in those sorts of things, what are the sorts of things you say to them? What are the things you speak into their lives to encourage them to have that balance?

I love that question, man.

I love it. Okay, so I have Dell. I have some clients who had apologetics in their background who have been doing jobs that have nothing to do with apologetics. Sure. And they're wondering, what do I do?

What's my purpose? How do I use this as a UPS driver, right? So one of the main pieces or hypotheses within the very center of apologetics is the very nature of truth, right? And truth by itself is an explanatory, propositional understanding of something.

But it's not just that. It's also being true to yourself epistemologically and existentially. So if I have the truth, as Søren Kierkegaard brilliantly said, if that truth is not true for me individually, if me as a person does not bow my knee and have that truth transform me within, then it's nothing more than a proposition outside of me that may as well not be true.

Ah, okay. I like how you said that there, actually, because I was just having a conversation with someone where they were getting frustrated with this idea that many people often, within the realm of apologetics, they often speak of God as kind of like this abstract hypothesis, which kind of detaches the real existential experience of being in relationship with God.

We kind of intellectually detach ourselves from that so we can kind of theorize, right, about this abstract concept. I think that's really important that there's a difference between talking about truths and experiencing some of those truths.

What are some of the topics that you often see pop up in your conversations with apologists who might be struggling with that area in their lives, kind of the experience, as opposed to just talking about abstract ideas, if my question makes sense.

Sure. So I had one gentleman I was working with who was doing something completely outside of his field in apologetics and theology. He was in a state of intellectual despair because he wasn't able to use his gifts and talents and experiences in ways that he wanted to grow or provide for his family financially.

And that really was a strain on his soul. And so we began to unpack that. And the fascinating thing is, and this goes back to what I mentioned with Storen Kierkegaard in his brilliant book, The Sickness Unto Death.

And Kierkegaard says in The Sickness Unto Death that it's not death that's the sickness unto death. It's actually not even sin, but it's the despair of sin and despair of self. So when we come to a point where we are in so much despair, actually that is one of the best places we could be, theologically speaking, because only then can we see the depth and the darkness clearly to finally look up and see the light of the glory of the majesty of Christ.

And then we can look up and from our despair, find that hope. So I think when people are in a place of unproductivity, a place of despair, that's actually a good place for you to really, really reach deep into your soul, into the roots of God.

Because God finds you in the darkness sometimes. And ironically, that's the places where we find God the most. Sure. Yeah. So I find that with guys a lot. It usually takes that to get their attention.

Sure, sure. Now, are you familiar with those pictures, those inkblot pictures that psychiatrists use sometimes? Like, what do you see? And it's clearly, and then we'll say something. It's not what the picture is, but it's what's on the person's mind.

Yeah, yeah, the Rorschachs. That's right. So when you were talking about a person who was in an existential crisis and wanted to, I'm like, you're talking about me, aren't you? That's definitely something that I resonate with.

And I know we've had conversations in the past about that. And you made mention of kind of encouraging people to be productive in the midst of that and using their despair as kind of a platform for looking at the glory of God.

It looked like you wanted to share something, but here's my question, and then maybe you can address it after you kind of share your thoughts. You said despair and the glory of God, and you have these kind of two things side by side.

Can you kind of unpack for us briefly? Because this theme definitely shows up in scripture. What example did the Apostle Paul use to kind of draw that distinction from the darkness of where we're from and where Christ has taken us?

Our faith in Christ really behind the backdrop of our sinfulness. When you unpack that, I think in Romans 8 or something along those lines where he talks about how terrible our situation is with sin, but thanks be to God.

Maybe you can kind of explore with us the grace of God as Paul has taught it, and then unpack that for us.

Sure, I think you're referring to in Romans 8, Paul says, for all things work together for the good of those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, to be conformed to the image of his son.

So that actually throws away or explodes when the common mindset's out there that says all things, everything happens for a reason, and they leave it. Well, Paul doesn't say that. He says, no, everything happens for the good of those who love God.

Otherwise, there is this sense of chaos in our lives because we're not rooted theologically in our love of God. And how do we know that we love God? Well, Christ said, if you love me, you will obey my commands.

And that's one of the tests of love, but there's a lot more, a lot deeper aspects to that, of course. And the other part that we began to talk about was when we are in despair, how does that look like?

It looks like a place where it's almost like anger turned inward, and that's actually what depression is. Okay. When we're so angry at ourselves for not being productive, for not being the provider and protector that we wanna be as men, we end up wearing that heavy skull, scowl, upon our soul, and that weighs heavy upon us.

And one of the ways we can release ourselves from that is to recognize that, one, we are made in the image of God. We are his masterpiece. We are not to be measured by what we do, but rather who we are in him.

But from who we are in him, then we can do great things. Okay. And I think when we start with a place of saying that I want to now create something wonderful for my family, for my work, for my community, for my world, for the gospel, and then I'll find a sense of fulfillment, then I'll find a sense of manhood.

No, it's the other way around. Okay. You flip the whole paradigm upside down. We don't go toward, and this is, one of my coaches told me this, and I found it to be profoundly helpful. Instead of going toward a place of fulfillment to build our lives and the lives of those we love, rather start the other way around.

Start from a place of fulfillment. We are, as we are in ourselves, is a person who has everything he needs for godliness. Greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world. When we start from that place, then we can build something majestic, magnificent, and really see God's glory in magnificent ways in our lives.

Yeah, yeah. That's excellent. Now, you made me think of something. So when you say that we are God's masterpiece, especially when people are in the apologetic realm, they're very theologically sensitive, and they're very turned off with kind of the Joel Osteen feel-good method.

And so when you say, man, you're God's masterpiece, there's always that one person that'll throw in the text, yeah, but we're depraved sinners. You know, like, yeah, yeah, we get it. So here's my question.

You know what I'm talking about, right? I mean, you know, live your best life, you know? That's not in and of itself a bad thing, even though we might disagree with how people use that phraseology. But how do we find the balance as Christians, right, between understanding our value as masterpieces, but walking in humility, knowing that we are nothing without Christ?

How can I build my confidence in knowing my value as to who I am in Christ without allowing self-centeredness and pride to kind of seep in? I hope that question makes sense because that is so important.

A lot of people think because, you know, we're saved by God's grace, we're low-down dirty sinners, I'm just a, you know, I'm a useless wretch, you know? How do we navigate that?

I like that question. Can you unpack for me the reason for why you asked that question? And I'll tell you why I asked you, but do that for me. And then I'll go ahead and jump in.

The reason why I asked the question is because I don't think a lot of Christians who especially are theologically minded and have this reality and the reality of sin, right? And the fact that there's nothing good in us, that Christ only by his grace saved us, that we almost feel like we're doing something wrong when we confirm our own value.

So in other words, like, I'm not worth anything, it's only because of him. And so we kind of have this weird, like, yes, God's worthy to be praised, but we kind of walk around like, well, I'm nothing, you know?

The reason why I'm asking the question is that we could have that balance of, yes, it is Christ that gives us meaning, but how can that truth energize me and allow me to see the value that I have? That's really, and people fail to capture that, I think, and that's why I asked the question.

Okay, that's a good one. By the way, I was modeling that because one of the centerpieces of apologetics or even philosophy in general is to ask more questions than you do giving answers, okay? And what we do, and when we do that, we actually unpack the reason for the question.

Now we're better able to address it and the person is better able to communicate it. And the more they communicate it, the better they're able to see why they're even asking the question. Right, right, right.

That's one of the reasons I'm asking that, generally. But I think it's profound that you address that. So let me unpack it. Okay. There is a concept within theology called worm theology. Okay. That says you are a piece of whining dirt.

Don't even lift your eyes when you walk into church, let alone your house. If God knew who you were, as Jonathan Edwards says, he would drop you as a web holding a spider over the flaming pit of hell.

That's how disgusting you are to him. Now, at one level, that's how our sin is to him. Yeah. Yes. But on another level, God says that we are made in the very image of God, which is the Imago Dei, Genesis chapter one expands upon that, right?

And Jesus says that we will sit with him on his own throne at the end. I mean, that's almost sounds heretical, but that's actually scriptural. How are you gonna offer everyone on the throne? You know, that's more metaphorical than anything, but nevertheless, what it does is it talks about, there's a wonder within us that does not make us worthy of the love of God, but it makes us worth it.

Okay. Okay. I think that distinction is extremely important. Okay.

That is helpful. Can you repeat that phrase again so people can catch that?

We are not worthy of the love and the sacrifices of God, but we are worth it. Okay. So now, okay. So why are we worth it? Because he died for us. It's obvious. It's right there. He gave himself for us.

And there's nothing else in all creation that can do the things we're doing, that can be the things we're being. The only way we could do that is because the only thing that makes the 30 human rights charter of the United Nations even epistemically, even meaningful is if the beings you're talking about are worth more than the animals around them.

Yeah. Okay.

That's excellent. All right. That's really good. I think it's a helpful balance. And now I know what you're not saying is that, and I'm thinking in terms of kind of people who would overanalyze what you're saying.

You're not saying that in and of ourselves, independent of God, we have this intrinsic value because, no, no, no. You are what you are because God made you. But the fact that God made you means you have value to him because he wouldn't have made you if you had no value.

So there is a healthy balance to have there. I was just thinking, I have, see, I'm a Calvinist, but I have my super duper Calvinists who are, they emphasize total depravity so much that they won't even accept the compliment when someone says, hey, but that was a great job.

It's all glory to God.

You didn't have to do it. I had a friend No, no, no. There's a humility that we can build that. Of course, I need to get Joel Olsteen's hair to really live my best life. I don't have that yet. But there is a sense of, because being transparent here with you, Eli, as a child, I grew up with a serious issue of self-esteem.

I really didn't think myself even worthy of let alone any grade I received, let alone any compliments. So when I go into a theology enterprise and I begin to study the depravity of man, I mean, that just overemphasized my complete worthlessness as a human being.

Or as a man. And then when I began to read that the Lord actually values me enough to give his son for me, like, wow, my eyes lit up. So there is that value. And it's exemplified in a dictum that I heard.

You may have heard this before. It's Jewish in its origin. Rabbis used to carry this in their pockets. They carry one little parchment that says, to dust you are, to dust you will return. And whenever I feel prideful or feel too much of aggrandizement on myself, I read that.

Yeah, that's it. However, yeah. When I'm feeling down and broken and empty and betrayed, I pull up the other parchment. It says, for your very eyes, the stars were made. Wow. That's good stuff, man. I like it.

I like it. Yeah, there's that balance. I think there's that. Yeah, that balance is so important because we can kind of, the feel good stuff is sometimes it's like, yes, people wanna latch onto that. But on the other side, people wanna latch onto the self-deprecation, right?

I'm nothing, I'm this, I'm that. And I think there's a healthy balance there to be had. Absolutely. When we tell people that God loves you,.

Has a wonderful plan for your life. Well, it may mean being executed in a missionary endeavor.

Yeah, yeah. But that's still a wonderful plan if it's the will of God. So it's not like

Exactly, yeah. It doesn't mean having all the wealth and prosperity around me. Not necessarily, because many believers who did not have that. However, some believers did have that. Yeah. So we can't discount both of those.

That's right. Yeah. I think the key word is balance there. Now, you said something that you speak to men, you speak into the lives of men and you encourage them to be productive and goal-oriented. In your estimation, what is, I know there's a famous documentary entitled, What Is A Woman?

But I'm about to ask you, what is a man, biblically? Define man biblically. And I don't just mean like, just like the creature man, but like the ideals that we were created to walk in and how your message caters to that when you're speaking into the lives of these people that you're working with.

I love your questions, man. They're so controversial. Non-politically incorrect.

Right. Yeah, I haven't seen that documentary. I think they have Neither have I. Ben Shapiro has it produced it somewhere? Yeah. I'm not sure. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Okay, so let's go into it.

Unlike our current, most recent Supreme Court justice who can't define a man or let alone a woman, unfortunately. And I know that's done for political purposes more than anything else. Right. Sure. Well, I'm not constrained by those.

Okay. No, no, no. Okay. So when God made man and woman in his image, it's assumed by default that the very image of God is not male and female, but has the masculine and the feminine in the very image, in the very nature, in the very being of God himself.

Okay. Now, why do we refer to God as a man or he or a father? Right? And that goes into the question of the patriarchy, which is a very disparaging term nowadays. It basically means the patros or the father of the one who is in charge, the one who actually creates and sustains and provides for the community and sacrifices himself to do so.

It's a beautiful thing when done properly. Right? So God being the ultimate figure of the massive patriarchy that he is, is the one who gives, the one who provides, the one who protects, right? The one who creates.

And that comes from the male or the masculine. Where the feminine receives, the feminine nurtures, the feminine equips, the feminine comes alongside and helps. So to see a man as one who actually steps up into the fray, takes on the enemy first, steps into the battle first, gets out of bed first to see who broke the window, doesn't say, honey, it's your turn, you know, equality here.

No, that's not how that works. Because God has made me not only physiologically stronger than the woman, right? He's made me psychologically more resilient. And generally speaking, there's always exceptions.

There's always a woman out there who's more and a man who's lighter. And for those, there's some work involved. But basically what I do is I summarize masculinity in a number of different Ps. This is how I put it.

The man is to be the provider, the protector, the priest, the prophet and the patriot of his family and his community. And that, in a sense, summarizes what it means to be a man, functionally speaking, in the world.

What do you mean, patriot? I mean, one who looks out for the best interests of his community or his world or his nation. I don't mean in a political, public, democratic sense, no.

I was about to say, I don't have my American flag anywhere. No, no, no, no, no. Sometimes it takes, yeah.

You have to stand up with your community, as many of the churches actually gathered their own men during the Revolutionary War of 1776. The churches actually gathered the men to stand up and defend their communities when the British began to invade.

Okay, all right. Yeah, I don't know if I meet that requirement. I remember one time we heard some ruffling on the side of our house, the garbage, and my wife's like, go check it out. I'm like, I'm not about to go outside and get bit by an old possum or nothing.

I'll do it when it's daytime. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I failed the test. God has to work on me some more. You don't strike me as a squeamish type, man. I don't wanna mess with your wife when you're around, so.

Listen, anything furry and below my ankles, I don't mess around with, bro. I don't mess around with. So if it's, I can protect my family from like a thief or whatever, but with small furry things, I don't fly with those things.

So at any rate, nevertheless, let's move on here. So that's some great stuff. I think it's so important that, especially men, but I mean, believers in general, but men should really step into that role and we all have areas to kind of grow.

And I suppose we can talk days and days about what that looks like, but let's kind of make a shift here. When I was reading your description, you have a lot of focus in philosophy of religion, apologetics, and maybe we'll have time to go into some of the specific area of cognitive science and philosophy of mind, those sorts of things.

But why don't you define for folks, what is philosophy of religion and why were you so interested in that topic that it became kind of a center of some of your study?

Sure. Well, philosophy is the love of wisdom and studying the questions behind the questions and unpacking that, what those actually mean behind the scenes in the history of ideas. And of course, religion is a study of the groups of people and their belief systems and their ideologies and why they believe it.

So when you take philosophy of religion, you combine the two, now we're studying why people believe these things and what is it that makes these things true or rational to continue to hold on in our modern day understanding.

So why don't I be faster? I think it's just a very close segue between philosophy of religion and apologetics are just so close together, they interlap.

So what is the apologetical value of studying something like the philosophy of religion? So if there's someone listening here and it's like, hey, I wanna take the philosophy of religion, what bearing does that have in apologetics?

Oh, the bearing is incredibly powerful. How could you really understand what you're defending if you don't know what you're defending? Sure. And one of the ways of becoming a robust apologist is to study the major religions of the world from their own understanding, from their own theologies, from the primary texts themselves.

And that's actually a study of religion or theology of Hinduism or Buddhism and things of that nature. But philosophy of religion unpacks why the Buddhists philosophically, epistemically believes it. What is the reasons they have?

And then you can understand now what they believe even more. That gives you a reason to believe why you believe what you believe. So you could do what Peter tells us to give a hope for the reason within us.

Sure. So when we talk about the philosophy of religion, is there a secular way of doing that and then a distinctly Christian way? So like if I went to a seminary and took philosophy of religion, will it be in important ways different than if I were to go to a secular university and study the philosophy of religion?

Because when I think of philosophy of religion, I typically think of people familiarizing themselves with like the traditional arguments for God's existence, cosmological, teleological, ontological, those sorts of things.

Is there a unique difference between how Christian schools and secular schools.

Play that out? Yeah, there definitely is. And each one has their own, of course, take on it. I would recommend an article written by Alvin Plantinga, one of the greatest philosophers of religion in the last maybe five decades.

He wrote an article called Advice to Christian Philosophers. He unpacks that very question. So basically the philosophy of religion is a study of what is it that makes this religion viable and as a rationally sustainable ideology.

And the philosophy of religion unpacks that, unpacks the concept of hell in different religions, the concept of Hades in different religions, the concepts of sin or hermitology and theology. And how do I unpack that theologically in Hinduism and Buddhism and Islam?

What do they mean by that? So that's an understanding of it. So as an apologist, now I take that and apply it to the scriptures. How does the scripture or the theological understanding of the concept of hell contrast to and enlighten the concept of hell within all these other religions?

And why is this one more rationally defensible than these others?

Okay, so you can do philosophy of religion in the abstract. Hey, look at all these different perspectives and how much they can give us an understanding as to a particular worldview, but the Christian apologist is going to take that data and use it to kind of evaluate the merits or lack thereof of these different philosophical aspects of different worldviews.

So like, what is more plausible, the Buddhist conception of hell or the Christian conception of hell or the Muslim conception of hell?

Have I got it right? Yeah, you got it right. I would caution something though, Eli, the pride that comes in. Since I have the truth, everyone else is wrong, now let me see what's wrong. No, I think that's an approach of pride.

And I don't think that we can really grow and understand another faith or another religion or another ideology from a place of superiority. We have been humbled by the death of Christ. Nothing else can humble us more by that.

To come across it as just beggars, trying to show others the path that was revealed to us, rather than trying to expose the falseness of your faith and slam people on the hammer with my apologetic mullet on their heads as I find all the things wrong with your faith and religion.

I mean, that's not a good way to approach people, let alone studies. Yeah.

So, okay, so we've been humbled by the cross, but have we also been humbled by the truth of the cross? Don't we come into it believing that we do have the truth? Can't we approach it as we do have the truth, but that in light of that truth and the fact that that truth has been given to us by the grace of God and not our own intellectual capacities, that we could kind of lovingly with gentleness and respect come at the issues of, you know, because we do believe these other perspectives are false as Christians, right?

I mean, we're not gonna say that, you know, they have equal footing in terms of their truth, but we do wanna make sure that when we're engaging people, we're engaging them, listening to them and, you know, showing respect and things like that.

You see where I'm trying to come from?

Yes. There's a tendency within culture, specifically secular culture, to minimize truth claims so that we do not offend the other side. So as a result of that, we have moved from post-modern thinking to a more relativized notion of truth itself, and that has now trivialized truth claims in religion and in ethics.

Okay. Yes. That is a reality that we have to deal with, and we should be careful not to give into that, right? Yeah, that would be dangerous. On the other end of the spectrum, when we say we have the truth, and the truth in what?