January 12, 2018 Show with Dr. Corey Miller & Dr. Vince Eccles on “Leaving Mormonism: Why Four Scholars Changed Their Minds” (Part 2)

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converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour.

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Now here's our host Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com.

This is Chris Arnz and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this 12th

day of January 2017 and I'm so delighted to have two first -time

guests today.

They are going to be continuing a theme that we began yesterday on iron sharpens iron radio

with another guest Dr. Lynn Kay Wilder.

She is one of four contributors to the book leaving Mormonism why scholars

change their minds and yesterday? Dr. Wilder was on the program with her husband Michael.

They are both converts from Mormonism to biblical Christianity.

And today we are continuing the theme of that book leaving Mormonism Why for scholars change their mind with

two of the other authors?

We have on the program today.

Dr. Corey Miller and dr. Vince Eccles and Dr. Corey Miller

is the president and CEO of Radio Christie.

Well while he grew up in Utah as a sixth -generation Mormon He came to Christ

in 1988 and has since been a youth and college pastor a Bible College and University professor

a campus minister lecturer and first and foremost an evangelist.

From 2009 to 2015 he served on staff with Cruz faculty

Commons ministry at Purdue.

He is an adjunct professor of philosophy and comparative religions at Indiana University

Kokomo and He is variously published in journals and it's my honor

and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to iron sharpens Iron radio.

Dr. Corey Miller you for inviting me on.

Oh, it's my pleasure and also joining us today is dr J Vincent Eccles who is a research

scientist with a doctorate in physics?

After finishing his postdoctoral work at Max Planck Institute for extraterrestrial

physics in Garching Germany, dr. Eccles worked in industry and university

environments on topics of atmospheric and space Science.

He is author and co -author of ours over 70 publications in refereed science journals

and has been principal investigator on Grants and contracts from NASA NSF

and Air Force.

Dr. Eccles currently works at Utah State University at a research science as a research scientist

with an emphasis in theory and Modeling of the upper atmosphere.

Vince has long pursued a rigorous integration of science and faith in God.

He has documented his path from Mormonism to biblical Christianity and then into a deep crisis of

faith.

Vince's cathartic writing explores the remnants of his Christian faith and his Re -examination of

traditional Christian and Mormon theologies, and it's my honor and privilege.

We also welcome you to iron sharpens iron radio for the very first time Dr. Vincent Eccles.

And if anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail

.com.

Chris Arnzen a gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if

if indeed you live outside of the USA.

If you have a personal and private question that you'd like to ask and you do not wish to identify yourself

because perhaps you are a Mormon or perhaps your family is Mormon and you'd rather not

Let our listeners know your identity.

We can understand it if it's a personal and private matter.

So you may remain anonymous if that is the case, but if it's not a personal and private matter Please at least give us

your first name city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Well, first of all, I want to get a summary of how each of you having been

Mormons came to Christ what providential circumstances our sovereign Lord brought about in

your life that.

Drew you to himself and saved you.

And

first of

all, let me

begin

with.

Dr. Corey Miller the

Utah worry about that

that I Thought Jesus but it's much

deeper.

I'll

praise God for that

and.

Now dr. Vince Eccles if you could give us a summary of your own Testimony of how the Lord drew you

out of Mormonism and into Bible -believing Christianity.

It's my early life.

My family is as

well

my on my mother's side.

We had some wonderful

very much a part of the Brigham Young University.

The from

journey within pursuing God was in the Mormon Church being very

some of my first

ideas and language understanding within my family

in the 1960s primarily and

I

gained

a kind

of a and he Gained

he came and got and

gained a body on our father

being a physical be necessarily

tied to

and.

And they also presented

that quite dramatically

not

really heard of those didn't

embrace.

So from junior high into high school, I started to inquire

with reading and

Understanding of who God is in who

God is and

yeah, and what

the way

you

just the

way you described.

God the Father and had him being a man and Then being exalted

because of his obedience to eventually become God.

Reminded me immediately of a very famous quote by a Mormon that I have

remembered from years ago Lorenzo snow.

You probably know the quote that I'm going to read but Lorenzo snow said as man

now is God once was as God now is man may be and.

And Lorenzo snow was.

Was he a contemporary of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young?

Hello.

Excuse me.

Apostle at the time, but he took his.

I'm sorry.

Are you asking this question of Vince.

Either one doesn't matter.

Theology that Joseph Smith began teaching Outside of

Central and as

I know as an apostle for years and and a prophet as well and as I was discussing yesterday

with.

Dr. Lin Kay Wilder.

Many people who are unfamiliar with Mormonism whether they

are Those on the outside of the religion outside of the Church of Jesus Christ or a lot of Latter -day Saints

or they might even be Members of that church, but not very educated into its

core doctrines that they might not know some of the more hidden doctrines that are even more

startling that have been taught by either or both Joseph Smith and Brigham

Young things that were quite amazing to hear

for the first time but.

But just because the the religion is called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints and because

of the fact that an entity called Jesus Christ plays a

Central role or one of the central roles in that religion does not mean that it is a different form

or denomination of Christianity.

As I was discussing with Dr. Wilder You could not be farther away from

the actual biblical Christian faith being a Mormon than if you were

believing in Nordic or Roman or Greek Pagan idolatry.

Could you I mean these are really polar opposite religions other than some basic tenets

of moral Behavior and so on.

Corey.

Let me start with you on that.

Yeah, I mean there are.

Every one point the Book of Mormon

another Testament of Jesus Christ

You have

to say theology and there

even though he's called the Son of God or

God the Son at what time did he become God?

There was an evolutionary process, which he's

not even yet fully exalted progressing.

And in reality Mormon theology conflates

Humanity and divinity such that where Christianity might have the.

But yet

Mormons

don't have

a problem Holy God because

in man and God there's a conflation of humanity and divinity.

Where you and I

are having the opportunity

to be

it's at

that

time

different for Christianity teaches You

are God thing

that it's not

in Mormonism.

And so you're absolutely right.

Theology is term used

by

and.

Give us some more of the basic differences that make Mormonism

a Completely different religion in Christianity and then I want to after you do that Corey I want to move

on to something in Vince's background that I think is is very appropriate to

bring up in regard to his study of The extraterrestrial

phenomenon and so on.

But if you could first Corey tell us In some reform basically all the

major reasons why Mormonism is in stark contrast to Christianity a different religion.

And that's

not only

true in

the identity of

who we talk

about.

Great.

The idea and

this was familiar Territory to me and those I was around.

Try try to

get

things

one of the king

you start

to and some Mormon prophets in

particular Spencer

Significance.

The alleged claim is

without that prophetic

about one of

the essentials.

He's teaching

that try

try

your

best is

not such.

And the life.

I'm found

simple marriage.

We're simply for violating the world.

And what what are those?

But what are those beverages.

Just a curiosity?

I know that.

Alcohol and coffee are two of them are and perhaps all caffeinated beverages, or am I wrong there?

And that's kind of the inside joke too, because it's not entirely clear.

Some caffeines.

Okay, so I'm not some alcohol.

Okay others not but.

One just ought to still you've got you've got all Mormon

doctrine and

come you've

not

learned

the grace.

And that's a fundamental difference between Mormonism and Christianity.

That

dot

point

5 85 thing to be at the

table to impress a holy God and.

That's just not going to cut it.

So I think the doctrine of God the doctrine of there

are many many

others and

you mentioned.

You mentioned the other?

Works that they consider sacred Such as the Pearl of Great Price

and the Book of Mormon and the Doctrines and Covenants, which is to be

added to the Bible as Their guides to truth and don't they

supersede the Bible because they do not trust Completely the Bible because they believe it has been corrupted.

This is for still either one of you actually and then I'm going to go on to Vince for it with a different question.

Actually, I can because I have a

sure that What I when I left Mormonism I

took with

me of

the

argument but he

opened up by

a common Mormon phrase

it and so I said that

and he and He's

the perfect pulled out a Greek New

Testament that reading

Sounds I

could tell

and

the translation process is

is still it's not a lost art.

It isn't something from the distant past

that we call

archaeology and Manuscript studies of the Bible to see what this.

Well, what a couple of that.

Go ahead.

No, no, you go

ahead.

I was going to

say about there have

been theologians during Brigham Young's era.

Actually, we're trying hard to figure out how Mormonism would tie in

and a lot of their.

It's all based on everybody is a lay person.

You don't have their

life just

ten years.

There have been some in Mormonism

universities that teach tradition

and so Mormons

are allowing their scholar and

in some

sense

the

universe and how one.

Long comment there.

Yeah, that's fine.

I like comments to be as clear and detailed as possible.

It's it is a two -hour show after all.

And it's better than me pulling teeth.

I've had guests in the past that I've given a very short answers and nothing makes me sweat more than that.

But before when we come back to from the break Vince I'd like you to start

with this Question when we return because of the fact that you

work at the Max Planck Institute for extra extraterrestrial physics in Garching,

Germany and.

And you worked in industry and university environments environments on topics of atmospheric and space

science.

I wanted you to address the fact that the The not

only the movies but the TV series Battlestar Galactica was actually at least

loosely based on Mormon theology and some of it involves a planet that the

Mormons believe exists called Kolob and perhaps you could address that to the best of your ability

when we return because a lot of people have no clue that The the writer of better

Battlestar Galactica is a Mormon and that it was based at least in part in

some way upon Mormon theology and We are also going to take

your listeners, I'm sorry your questions who are listening if you want to

send an email on of your own and we do have Already a number of people waiting to have their questions asked and answered if you

would like to join them and get in line.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com chrisarnsen at gmail

.com and as always, please give us your first name at least your city and state and your country

of residence if you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if your Question involves a personal and private

matter.

Don't go away.

God willing. We will be right back with dr Corey Miller and dr. Vince Eccles

and more of leaving Mormonism.

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We are back now with our two guests.

Dr. Corey Miller and dr. Vince Eccles both Former Mormons both scholars

who changed their minds and by God's grace became born again Bible believing

Christians.

They are two of the four authors of the book leaving Mormonism.

Why four scholars changed their minds published by Kriegel publications yesterday?

We had dr Lynn Wilder on the program Lynn Kay Wilder who is one of those four

authors and She was on with her husband yesterday to start the ball rolling with this topic and today we have

dr Corey Miller and dr. Vince Eccles.

We hope to have dr Let's Latane see Scott Back on at some point in the future to also

put her two cents in as it were in regard to this.

She is one of the four authors Also a former Mormon who became a Bible believing Christian if you have

a question of your own.

Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com before the break.

Dr Vince Eccles.

I had mentioned that I wanted to hear from you Specifically and I'd also love to hear anything that Corey has

to say about this as well.

But since you work at the Max Planck Institute for extraterrestrial

physics in Garching Germany, I thought that you might have something unique to say about

the relationship between Battlestar Galactica the planet Kolob and the Mormon Church,

I.

Have watched the Battlestar Galactica the late version which is interesting

to see family being

but maybe I

shouldn't give away.

Yeah Germany was

actually in

between the Sun and the clouds.

Yeah, I kind of had a feeling it wasn't about six there.

I had a I kind of had a feeling the second or third time around reading your bio that it was not involving Martians

but it still applies.

It still applies I think as far as the relationship because If there was a planet Kolob, it would

obviously be involving a science outside this earth.

Right, right, you know, it's it's interesting

Understand about any

particular

planet.

There's

so many things

life

to even

environment.

For for life itself, if not even The civilization itself there are

some our universe

and that doesn't

bother me at all that God would

do such a marvelous

the one planet that he's Focused on and comes and visits, you

know, and by the way, I.

Know and have interviewed Colonel Jeffrey Williams who is an astronaut

who has taken more photographs of Earth from space than anyone else.

And has a gorgeous Photographic book of

Photographs that he has taken from space and I would love to hook the two of you up at some point.

Sounds like it might be a beneficial friendship to develop between the two of you.

But this planet is incredible as far as a gift from God to us.

Amen, and Corey, do you have anything to add to that about the the the science fiction connection with

the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints.

All right, I'm

gonna take some of our listener questions.

Because they do tend to pile up very quickly and then I wind up not having time at the end to take all of them.

Let's see.

We have Christina in Asante, Minnesota

and she says in The LDS marriage practice

of sealing a man can be sealed to many women for time and eternity.

But when it comes to a Mormon widow despite being pressured into remarriage How

does she justify being married again for one time and not eternity.

And you could?

We'll start with Corey on this and then you both can answer.

Well, that's a good question.

And it's also confusing because in the temple

ceremony, you know They're

given what happens if

she

doesn't

you can

see what you end up getting the possible

and maybe you have sort of a

I'm not sure Mormons have idea.

What that feeling even mean usually with the idea of

exaltation.

Are you cross those.

Jesus and he's now

it's going to be.

Is he on this Chris

Mormon?

You asked because of a lack of clarity on some of their doctrines with respect to

this.

Vince might have something else to add.

Yeah, I think.

Living in Utah.

It's apparent that there is

females of women in the some who Don't want to

be sealed forever.

The I

think and I

think some of these issues in particular are going to get Re -examined and

redefined within

too

many but

somehow It's

in a

more nuanced way, but

you know, I I

will not return to

Christian

or to Mormonism.

I examine this and I just do not

think.

Well, thank you, Christina.

Also, man.

I'm sorry.

No, no, you continue your thought.

I don't want to.

I don't want to sometimes argue against

a to actually address some of the criticism.

Right and sometimes changing.

Yeah, and and sometimes in fact, I would think that most of the changes

are for the worse because they're being softer on some things that Christians

universally view as damnable sins it seems and also their

changes often Contradict what their prophets have declared were very

commands of God himself.

And therefore they really don't have any logical consistent right.

To change certain things if you follow what I'm saying, I'd like for instance We

find it perhaps wonderful that many of these people in the Mormon

hierarchy saw fit to come to the place where they view

African -americans and other minorities as the equal with rights and

Are granted the same you know blessings and freedoms and liberties and options

and life and so on as Their white Mormon counterparts, but at the same time we don't

want any more reasons for African Americans or anyone else to be lured into this cult

because it is a indeed a heretical cult and.

I.

Suspect from what I have heard from other guests that their reasons were not because of a softened

heart That had abandoned racism or anything like that.

It was more because of the fact that they were fearful of losing tax -exempt status and so on it.

Can you can you?

Can you speak on that?

We'll start with Corey since Vince just left off Corey even going back to

Polygamy when it There was a radical transformation and a

new message.

It seemed from the Almighty that a husband was to

be married to one woman only.

Monogamy became the rule for the Latter -day Saints which is why many of the

polygamist Mormons escaped to Mexico and other places and and Still exists to this day the

fundamentalist polygamist Mormons, but these were Changes that change and the change in

regard to the status of blacks in their church and in regard to the priesthood and

other privileges that they were now welcomed to partake in.

These were really from government pressures I mean that the United States government and when it came to polygamy was going to seize their

property and throw them in prison if Continued.

Isn't that true?

Well, so yeah modern probably might

be thinking no that

seems to be pretty

can

whatever

the case with one's interpretation of that situation.

You can't erase the path is right that the modern Mormon Church.

There is a lot of evolution taking place in many of the doctrines and practices.

But some of that cannot get away from the historical

polygamy.

And it talks about it in such a way that it's an eternal covenant.

Brigham Young says that it was an eternal covenant and

enter into it.

And so you have you know tens of thousands of Mormons and different

Mormon sects seeming to be the restored

gospel apostasy

expediency.

They left and so

these polygamist sects in Utah continue to practice it and claim

and lay claim to being the authentic The down from

Joseph Smith through Brigham Young from the priesthood, you

know their writings by General

authorities that would talk about that and then I think in 78 Bruce

armikage and

apostles my friends who are older is

about that.

Again that came right on the hills if you are looking at a charitably

point.

You see that that's

part might be warranted given the

certain be

and so there is with some of

the rethink biggest reasons Mormons who are

insiders finding their history and

how he was marrying

Dozens

and dozens of

women a

lot of

credit

the Mormon Church

to lifestyle,

right?

And of

course a

Bible

-believing Christian.

Would not think of that as evolving.

They would look at that as devolving not that we should ever hate or mistreat people who

Have any kind of sin that they practice including homosexuality, but at the same time it

is Always a shame when religious and this institutions Sav the

consciences of those involved in that sin to make them more comfortable remaining in it

and you know, you have clerics of all kinds of religions marrying Same -sex

couples and celebrating and rejoicing with them in their wickedness.

But the Christian scriptures and the Hebrew scriptures for that matter offer no such

hope of Eternal life or peace with Christ if they continue in that behavior

and we're going to Go ahead.

Go ahead.

No, no, you go ahead because we have to go to a break.

Yes, of course.

And by the way that sounded like Corey.

I don't know if you move your mouth away from the phone or something, but sometimes you get very quiet so if you could make

sure you you had your quote as close to your mouthpiece or or Your speakerphone or

wherever it is because we'd like to have you as loud and clear as possible.

Thank you.

Yeah, like right now.

That was good.

All right, we're going to our break right now.

This is an elongated break.

It's longer than normal because Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida requires a 12

-minute break between our two hours.

Please be patient with us as we go to this break and take the time to write in questions.

By the way, Christina is in Asante, Minnesota.

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Why for scholars change their minds.

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you or to iron sharpens iron radio.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with our guests.

Dr. Corey Miller and dr. Vince Eccles right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Hi, I'm pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

Before I return to my guests Dr. Corey Miller and dr.

Vince Eccles as we discuss leaving Mormonism why for scholars changed their minds I

just have a couple of important announcements to make.

First of all next week from Wednesday through Saturday the g3 conference

Returns to Atlanta, Georgia and I god -willing will be there Manning and iron

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The g3 conference this year is on the theme knowing God a Biblical understanding of discipleship.

The g3 in case you're wondering it stands for grace gospel and glory and the event starts on the

the 17th of January this coming Wednesday and In the daytime it will be a

Spanish -speaking edition of the g3 conference and then the English -speaking edition of the conference kicks

off in the evening of Wednesday the 17th of January when

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the morning of Thursday at January 18th through January 20th.

The English -speaking conference continues with such speakers as Stephen Lawson Vodie

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Advertising in the subject line and that is also the email address chrisarnson at gmail .com

where you can send in question to our two Guests, dr. Corey Miller and dr. Vince Eccles two former Mormons

who are contributors to the book leaving Mormonism.

Why for scholars change their minds and please give us your first name city and state and country of residence if

you live outside the USA.

And we do have a first -time questioner Charles from Rome, New York.

How important is it for layman to understand all of the nuances of the original Greek and Hebrew

translations?

When speaking to Mormons and Jehovah's Ness and Jehovah's Witnesses and what a layman's

time be better spent studying elsewhere, thank you, I assume

Charles means elsewhere than other than learning original Greek and Hebrew.

I'm assuming that's what he meant.

But if you could each comment first, dr. Corey Miller.

You want to know Greek and Hebrew so that you can read the text better and know God better and obviously this is the text of

Scripture.

This is the text of Scripture because the Mormon writings are in English in their origin.

They're not in well, they would claim from translations from a seer stone, but

but the as far as the book of Mormon is concerned, but the The the Greek and Hebrew is involving the Holy

Scriptures.

Now they're not going to change.

I'll get a note that most scholars not

this is

not

just

liberal or

conservative

Greek to

be part of the original text and That's a

flat Greek and Hebrew is not really

anything to add Vince

with an individual and

it for the committed Mormon definitely.

King James is the only translation and it is.

It

is good

that Pretty nearly any English trends

are pretty

good.

Just read

the New

Testament.

Yes of the true Jesus Christ of the scriptures and thank you Charles from Rome, New York.

Since you are a first -time questioner, I would love for you to

Give us your full mailing address because not only are you winning a free copy of leaving

Mormonism?

Why for scholars changed their minds, but you're also getting absolutely free a

new American Standard Bible.

Since you are a first -time questioner, so make sure we have your full mailing address in Rome, New York.

So that cvbbs .com can ship the copy of leaving Mormonism out to you as soon as

possible along with a free new American Standard Bible and We

also have Abraham in Meridian, Idaho.

Generally, what do faithful Mormons say is behind conversion stories such as yours?

I can see how they would react to ex Mormons who have fallen away completely from religion.

But what about people such as yourself who now having a living faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and

that is Abraham and Meridian, Idaho.

And once again Corrie if you could start and what's especially interesting about this.

And I'll have you bring this up or I'll bring this up to you a little later but What

makes this especially interesting is the Mormons seemingly have changed their public

relations approach when they?

Evangelize people if they even use that term but I can remember there was a stark

contrast between When I invited Mormon missionaries in my home in New York.

When I was a brand -new Christian in the mid to late 1980s or early 1990s.

There was a very different approach to the Mormon missionaries.

I bumped into right here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania within months of today.

Who I bumped into in the street who?

Who said to me that you've probably heard that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints thinks they are

the only true church.

That's not true at all.

We're we're Christians.

Just like you was the thing that was told me by these young Mormon missionaries.

That was not what was told me back in the late 1980s by the Mormon

missionaries who came into my house, but if you could.

And I think that that is connected with what what might be said about you since you haven't just become

Abandoned to become enslaved to sin and and and

What would be called scandalous wicked behavior of any kind you've become Christians now, how would that.

How what would be the Mormon response to that that you have?

Changed your views of who Jesus is.

What salvation is what the gospel is

and what the

Holy Scriptures are.

And

Corey

if you

could start sometimes

Christian, but?

You reject God.

We have not

rejected

left.

I did

not

reject

the Mormon

theology.

I

rejected

more

when you now

write

against it.

That's

the

worst of

the

worst.

And

skeptic

Christianity was set of ideas.

Yeah, but going back to what I said They I think that they have a harder time in the 21st century if their

rhetoric has become we're Christians just like you we just have you know, basically coming from the point of

we're just another denomination not the original rhetoric of the Mormon Church not

only at its inception, but even as Recent as the 1980s 1990s

Mormons weren't typically saying that kind of a thing.

So in other words, they would have less To say to you in derision or in

chastisement or rebuke.

If indeed their rhetoric was honest that we're Christians just like everybody else and different Christian denominations

there really is no big deal.

I am NOT going to have a Heart attack or be thrown into the depths of depression if

some of my Baptist friends become Presbyterians.

There is a much more cataclysmic Event taking place when someone leaves Mormonism

and becomes a Bible -believing born -again Christian ie a Baptist a

Presbyterian Etc.

So if you could Just to come in a little bit about that and then Vince you could say what you have to say on that.

Lord gospel as

you can imagine.

A suspect.

Well, all of each went and picked

up some of them.

So all of them have some

and so even

if them sometimes

turn and that's what.

And Vince do you

have anything

to say?

Yes in general and that

they they added more

and that is

Based

on

the

idea that

in the

line of

prophets of

the

Mormon

Church

continue.

Oh, praise God.

Yeah for me

that it

took

and

my brother was.

Well, we

have

to go to

our finally a

different.

We have to go to our final break right now and we Do still have a few people waiting to have their questions

asked and answered.

But if you want to join them now is the time to do it because we are rapidly running out of time.

Send your email as quickly as possible to Chris Ornson at gmail .com chris

Arn z en a gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away.

God willing. We'll be right back with dr. Corey Miller and Dr. Vince Eccles to conclude our

discussion on leaving Mormonism.

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God or am I trying

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Man, if I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi.

I'm Mark Lukins pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

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I also I don't know if I told Abraham in a meridian, Idaho that you have also won a free copy of leaving Mormonism.

So make sure we have your full mailing address now we have a David in Ada, Ohio and

David says my question has to do with Mormons who leave Mormonism and Don't

convert to Christianity while it would be best if they would be born again.

However, isn't that up to Jesus?

So while we witness to them about the true faith if they aren't granted eternal life in Jesus I don't

consider them as being any worse off than if they had stayed in Mormonism.

Why is it?

Otherwise, why do some think if they leave Mormonism and have no religion?

They are worse off than if they had stayed in the Mormon Church.

Thank you for this program and the information is much needed.

Well, I don't think either of my guests made that claim that It's better to leave

Mormonism.

Even if you become an atheist or something.

Because of the fact that both categories of people would not enjoy eternal life.

So if you want to respond both of you to what David has said I know that you are both born -again believers in Christ.

So I know that you would obviously agree that the eternal destiny of one

leaving Mormonism doesn't change if they do not come to faith in Christ.

Right.

The Sun has the life.

He does not have the Son of

God does not have the life.

So it doesn't matter what else you

believe you

lack biblical Christ you lack

Eternal

life

and

worldview.

So to

get

people

to

reject

more

is

and that

does

we offer

up the

true Jesus.

And events you have anything to add is only one.

Yes, my my path.

Particularly

my

father

had a sick

leave.

Always that you look

at didn't

need God could.

Religious.

And that is what

draw what

drew me

once I had

kind of

gotten

through

all

my good

answers.

And

I finally could honestly look again

that I could go no other place.

Amen, and we have Joey in Clifton, New Jersey.

Hi, Cory and Vince.

Thank you for your help.

Can you please share your understanding of the Mormon view of? eternal destinies

of these three types of individuals first.

Mormons who are not in a place of prominence.

Let's call them the majority of Mormons.

Do they also Eventually evolve to Godhood.

Are they different from the more elite?

I will just let you both answer that before I move on to his other two categories.

Even even from what I've heard even Hitler and Charles Manson are in a better place

than an apostate Mormon.

The

vast

majority

and

that

Cory I don't have too much to add to that I

would

to

get the

grade you're

talking

with

find

out what

it is.

But again, I'm gonna

find and I'll find out how.

Yeah,

you

basically both already answered.

What would be the eternal?

Destiny of the other two categories his other two categories were Christians

who outside the Mormon Church believe in Christ, but not profess due to do but do not profess Joseph Smith and

Complete unbelievers like atheists or agnostics or what have you?

They would all be according to what you two just said in some level of heaven.

Remember, right?

My understanding I believe that.

And the final thing that Joey asks is do they do they the Mormons speak?

Clearly on these three categories and you obviously already answered that as well.

You said if you ask five different Mormons, you may get five different answers.

Okay.

And to even bring it home a little bit closer as far as the very first group

of people there is no Relationship or symmetry

between Mormonism and the Roman Catholic Church that would have a distinct and separate

view of those that they would call saints and Those that are the average Catholic

who go to purgatory before they enter into heaven in other words the elite amongst Mormons

According to what you said aren't really in some kind of a prestigious place in the afterlife over

the other faithful Mormons who may Be just as obedient to Mormon doctrine

as Those who are in the elite like the presidents and the prophets and apostles in that the

church.

Is that true or am I misreading you?

Corey

Vince, I

don't think

you

can

change

some

sense

and

I from

what I

understand.

Those who have committed certain crimes There's the shedding of their own blood is

required to prevent their damnation.

Such as Gary Gilmore Who went on a murder spree back in the 80s or 70s,

I can't remember I think it was the 1980s he was a Mormon or became a Mormon and

Requested that he be executed by firing squad because it required the shedding of his

blood.

So am I right there that the Mormons teach that there are certain crimes and sins that require the shedding of their

blood to prevent their damnation.

Again, it depends on Which Mormon General authority.

Yeah,

there's

nothing

really.

Your progress never ends even

there.

The understanding of

the Mormon.

Right.

Yeah as Christians do we we would say that every born -again person is a saint.

Well, uh, we have time for one more question, this is a listener that actually wrote in

yesterday.

Joe in Slovenia and Our guest dr. Lynn Kay Wilder recommended to

Joe that he send the same question to you two thinking that you two may have more

of an area of expertise in this particular.

A Subject that Joe in Slovenia is asking about my question has to do with historical

research and apologetics with Mormons.

What if any experience?

Do the authors have with exposing Mormons to the historical realities of the burnt over

districts of New York?

Phenomenon caused by the abuses of Charles Finney and others during the suspect Second

Great Awakening that led to movements including Mormonism.

Does showing them that the Pelagian heresy of that time decimated the church spawning

several heretical groups?

Mormonism being just one of them helped them to see that it sprang from bad spiritual

soil.

The questioner seems like someone who has read the Apostle Paul taking

one long breath.

No periods or commas in that question.

Read chapter 1 of JP Morland's book loving God with all your mind.

Yeah, I guess if I'm tracked burned

-out district Charles Finney a lot of the the kind of alter Calls would be trying to

and also just

about Finney's

theology is soteriology.

Soteriology was certainly man -centered and did not require any kind of miraculous work of the Holy

Spirit for salvation.

He was very very Opposed to things that are historically considered

Biblical teachings by by Protestants historically.

He is a not he is an anomaly.

He was certainly was a heretical individual did not believe in salvation by grace alone through faith

alone because of the substitutionary death of Christ alone.

But if you could continue, I'm sorry.

Hello.

I'm still not entirely clear on what the question was.

Basically, is that a helpful?

Is that a helpful tool?

Is it is it a helpful tool to point these kinds of things out to?

Mormons that their movement sprang from the soil of Heretical movements

like Charles Finney's which was really a graceless Movement, it was a man -centered works

righteousness type of a movement that the Mormon Church came out of.

That's basically I think what he's saying.

Does it help when you're evangelizing Mormons to bring that up in my

view?

No, there's probably

never read the book of

glade.

Have it make

sinner.

Amen.

You know

use

nightly

find it.

I used the Book of Mormon

as I

never I

never saw that.

It was it was different from anything.

I'd ever heard.

I recognized that I was a sinner in need of grace.

I didn't have the next life.

I didn't have the luxury on my way.

No I East Coast

burned out district or Finney or anything like that

to bring about the knowledge and

once again to read.

Amen and we are out of time.

I know that anybody can purchase this book from the CV BBS calm.

And of course, I'm talking about leaving Mormonism wise for scholars change their minds published by

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CV BBS calm is where you could purchase that and you get a 10 discount by entering

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Any other contact information that either of you have starting with you Vince Eccles?

Why don't you give your contact information if you care to or any websites and so on and then we'll move on to Corey.

Vince, are you there?

Any kind of contact information.

Okay, Vince stop Eccles at gmail .com and Corey Miller anything that you care to share with our listeners.

Yeah.

Excellent.

Well I thank you both for being on the program.

If you could hold on for a minute so I could say a proper goodbye to You off the air.

I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who wrote in questions.

I apologize to anybody who we could not get their question read and answered on air.

Perhaps next time we address Mormonism.

You could join us with the question.

I want you all to have a safe and blessed weekend and Lord's Day.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior

Than you are a sinner.