June 12, 2017 Show with Ken Samples on “Without A Doubt: Answering the 20 Toughest Faith Questions (Part 2)”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host Chris Arnton. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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Well I'm welcoming you all to have a happy Monday on this 12th June, 12th day of June 2017.

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I'm really tongue -tied this afternoon, I don't know why, but today we have in the program or on the program, returning to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, a dear friend of mine going back to the late 1980s,

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Kenneth R. Samples, philosopher, theologian, former senior research consultant and correspondence editor at the

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Christian Research Institute, former co -host of the Bible Answer Man radio broadcast, and current senior research scholar at Reasons to Believe, RTB as it's known.

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He's the author of the Christian Endgame, Seven Truths That Changed the

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World, A World of Difference, and more, and leader of Reason to Believe's Straight Thinking podcast.

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He's host of the Reflections blog, he's a speaker at universities and churches worldwide, and frequent guest on radio programs such as the

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Frank Sontag Show, Issues Etc., Stand to Reason, and Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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He's an adjunct professor at Biola University and member of the Evangelical Philosophical Society and the

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Evangelical Theological Society and the International Society of Christian Apologetics.

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We are having Ken return today to discuss part two of his book,

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Without a Doubt, Answering the 20 Toughest Faith Questions, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Kenneth R.

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Samples. Well, thank you, Chris. It's terrific to be with you.

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You're one of my favorite radio people. I always enjoy my time with you and I think fondly of the time we spent together years ago when you were in New York, and I sure miss your lovely wife.

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She was such a warm and caring person, and so it's good to be on with you, and thank you for being so generous to share the time with me.

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Hey, my pleasure. I think one of the reasons I was tongue -tied doing the announcements is that I was discussing my late wife with you before we went on the air, and the emotions well up on occasion, but I have a very fond memory specifically or specifically of being in a gourmet restaurant that is no longer in existence, but it was called

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Sherry's. It was on the water in Babylon Village, Long Island, and you and my wife and I had a wonderful time for dinner while you were visiting

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Long Island, and that was the first place that I ever had escargot snails.

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I don't think I've had them since either, but I did enjoy them. I was amazed how much I enjoyed them, but they were covered with garlic butter and so on, so I guess you could you could eat a shoe if it was covered with garlic.

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It better be. Right, and also I had I think at one time frog's legs there, but anyway very, very sweet memories and precious memories, and I know that my wife thought the world of you, but obviously the questions as you identify them in your book without a doubt are the toughest faith questions, and you have 20 of them, and since they are tough faith questions, we only in a two -hour span last time only were able to cover three of them, and those were the how can we know

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God exists, we discussed for a bit the theodicy, how we can defend

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God as being good in the midst of evil that is rampant in the world, that classic centuries -long enigmatic question that that has been going on ever since men could think

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I'm assuming, and well ever since the fall anyway, and the questions that we have ahead of us

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I am sure are going to be equally important. Before we even go into those questions, well first of all let me give the email address for our listeners.

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It's chrisarnson at gmail .com c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com,

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and our listeners can give me at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. But tell us why you wrote this book to begin with, and why did you select the 20 questions that you did?

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Were these questions that you have been asked throughout your not only life as a

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Christian, but in your career as an apologist, were these the most frequently asked questions, or how did you develop this list?

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Yeah Chris, thank you for asking me that good question. I put this list together really from a couple different points of view.

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I spent a good bit of my time about 20 -25 years ago teaching at a public college, and inevitably the students would discover that I was a

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Christian, and in philosophy or a world religions or a logic course they would convey to me their kind of burning questions about God, about religion,

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Christianity. So some of the questions that are in my book I derived from talking with skeptical students.

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Also on the Bible Answer Man I was asked lots of different questions, and so I tried to divide the book up into questions that focus on God and God's existence and God's act in creation.

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The second part of the book deals with questions that relate to the person of Jesus Christ and who he is,

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Lord and Savior, his death on the cross for the atonement of our sins, his bodily resurrection from the grave.

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And then the third part are just kind of typical objections that people have about historic

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Christianity, and they relate to the world's religions, they relate to science, they relate to questions of tolerance and moral relativity.

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And then of course maybe the ultimate question that we touched upon last time, you know, the problem of pain and suffering and evil.

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So I don't know if these are exactly the the most difficult or toughest, but I certainly think that they are among the most challenging and difficult.

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The good news is that we as Christians have good answers, and if we prepare ourselves, and that's why

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I wrote the book, to try to help Christian folk to think and reflect about these challenges so that when they have opportunities they could answer people's questions and help them to clarify

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Christianity and give evidence for the faith. So that's kind of the backdrop on why

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I wrote the book and how it came to be. Amen. Well, we thank the

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Lord that you did develop this book and that it was published by the good people at Baker.

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And the first question I'd like to address with you, which is a very controversial issue, it's amazing that it is controversial, but it is, because one of the reasons

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I say it's controversial is because even conservative Bible -believing born -again

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Christians disagree with this, and that is the existence or use or adopting of creeds of the faith.

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And the way that you title this in your book, this section, is, aren't the creeds a thing of the past?

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First of all, why don't you define a creed, also known as a confession of faith?

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Some people differentiate the two, but some, probably most, use the term synonymously.

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But if you could give us a definition of what you mean by that. Yes, a creed, the

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Latin is credo, I believe. A creed is, within church history, often been understood as a statement of faith, an expression of the essentials of historic

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Christianity. Sometimes creeds can be very short, in fact, there's probably the most primitive creed in Christianity, which is in the

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New Testament and probably a dozen different places, is the creed

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Jesus is Lord. That was a creed to express the truth that Jesus was

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Yahweh, that Jesus was Lord even above Caesar and all the other

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Greco -Roman deities. So creeds tend to want to focus on the very essence of the faith.

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As Christianity went on, creeds developed, they grew. By the time of Protestant Reformation, you have what we call confessions of faith, which would have taken fairly brief creeds like the

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Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed's a little bit longer, the Athanasian Creed is a lengthy creed dealing with both the deity and humanity in Christ, as well as the doctrine of the

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Trinity. But by the time you have the Reformation, the Lutherans, the

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Reformed, the Baptists, the Anglicans, developed confessional statements that go even further.

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And you know, the creeds are very important. I like to tell people, especially people who are uneasy with creeds, maybe they've grown up in a non -liturgical church, sometimes

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I hear things like, you know, no book but the Bible, no creed but Christ. Of course, that sounds a little bit like a creed.

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That is a creedal statement. I like to let people know that there are creeds in Scripture.

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For example, if we go back to the Old Testament, Deuteronomy 6, verse 4, called the

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Shema. The word Shema is Hebrew for hear, something you do with your ear. Hear, O Israel, the

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Lord our God, the Lord is one, a testimony to God's monotheism, that Israel was

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God's chosen people. That creedal statement is probably recited more than maybe any passage in the

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Bible, because throughout Judaism it's recited, it's a common passage within Christianity.

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As we move into the New Testament, New Testament scholars have discovered, Chris, over maybe the last 50, 75, maybe 100 years, that it appears that there were very early creeds.

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I'm going to call them primitive, because I'm going to distinguish the very earliest period of Christianity, where all of the

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Christians were Jews. The Gentiles had not yet become the dominant people group within Christianity.

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Well, New Testament scholars have recognized that there are creeds, and sometimes even parts of hymns, that were weaved into the

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New Testament by people like the Apostles Peter and Paul. For example,

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Philippians 2 has part of an ancient hymn, there's one in Colossians 1, there's also a creedal statement in 1

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Corinthians chapter 15 that talks about Christ died, He was buried, He was raised,

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He appeared. And 1 Corinthians chapter 8, there are a number of places in which creeds appear, so I like to encourage people to recognize that creeds actually existed before there was a

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Bible. The Apostles used creeds, weaved them into the Bible, and you know, the creeds that we have, like the

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Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed, I think the Nicene Creed is the most commonly used creed within Christendom.

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Roman Catholics affirm it, at least conservative Catholics, theologically. Eastern Orthodox affirm it, although they may want to differ over the filioquia clause, that's the idea that the

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Father and the Son... The Holy Spirit.

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The Holy Spirit. And then it's, of course, affirmed by most of Protestantism, Lutherans, Reformed, various groups.

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So I like to encourage people to recognize that creeds can be very useful, they can be very handy.

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Of course, they're not, they don't carry the same authority that Scripture does. A creed like the

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Apostles' Creed or Nicene Creed, or if it's a confessional statement, like the Belgic Confession or the

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Westminster Confession, or the Heidelberg Catechism or the Westminster Catechism, or the 39

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Articles of the Anglican Church, or one of the confessional statements of the

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Baptist tradition... Or the Savoy Declaration. That's right, those creeds and those confessions have a derived authority, they derive their authority from presenting and supporting the truth of Scripture.

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And Chris, I think that the creeds that we have in Christendom, sometimes we call them the ecumenical creeds,

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I think they have been so influential because, in large part, they've tried to stay very close to the teaching of Scripture.

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Sure, there are places in the Creed that are contentious, that are challenging, the

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Apostles' Creed that, you know, Christ descended into hell is a challenging issue.

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But I think creeds have been very helpful, they can help us educate our young people.

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I think it's awfully important to be able to recognize doctrine that is absolutely essential, as opposed to maybe doctrines that may be secondary.

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And so I'm very big on creeds, and I'm also very big on trying to help people that are not used to creeds or feel uneasy about them, maybe to feel a bit more comfortable.

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And that's what I do in that chapter in my book. Yes, as you mentioned at the outset of what you were saying, everybody really has a creed, whether they want to recognize it with that terminology or not.

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If you have a list of things that you believe are of primary importance that are taught in the

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Scriptures, once you begin speaking about those important things, especially if you write them down in some document like even your church bulletin, that is a creedal statement or a confession.

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Even if you had as a belief, like some Unitarian Universalists might believe, that all religions lead to God, and that kind of a thing, that's still a creed.

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And even if you had some strange, informal, liberal church or organization that said you could believe anything you want to believe, that's even a creed.

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That's a creedal statement, but it's just very bad. And what you were saying earlier about people who were raised in a non -confessional church, perhaps an independent

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Baptist church or something like that, that they may be apprehensive about the terminology like creed, confession, and even catechism.

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But I would even add to that, that might be especially true for people who, like myself, were

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Roman Catholic for a good portion of their lives and left that. I think that those folks might be even more skeptical or apprehensive about wrongly, they would be wrongly thinking that they would be returning to some kind of aberrant teaching of the

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Church of Rome or Eastern Orthodoxy, but a creed is only as good as its contents.

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It's only as good as it is faithful to the Scripture, right? That's exactly right, and I recognize, having grown up Catholic as well, that there are times people think, well, if you're associating maybe the

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Apostles' Creed or the Nicene Creed, that's kind of Catholic. Of course,

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I don't mind being called Catholic, I'm just not Roman. I believe in God's universal

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Church, but you need not be a Roman Catholic or an Eastern Orthodox to appreciate, you know, creedal statements.

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And I think sometimes, Chris, I'm a little more uncomfortable when churches don't have a statement of faith, that don't have an explicit creedal statement.

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I would never attend a church if it did not state openly and clearly and carefully what it believed.

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And so, I think that you've hit it on the head. I mean, from a

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Protestant point of view, the authority of the creeds is derived from the fact that they are conveying, they are communicating the very truth of Scripture.

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Now, you know, some of the creeds, like the Nicene Creed, which is a pretty big slice of historic

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Christianity, or the Apostles' Creed, they don't get into every issue that Protestants think are important.

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The Nicene Creed, the Apostles' Creed don't address the authority of Scripture question, at least not directly.

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Soteriology is strangely absent in any kind of weighty significance.

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That's exactly right. In the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed, the Athanasian Creed, which are very popular creeds in the

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Western Church, they do not address the question of the relationship, or the specific relationship, between grace, faith, and good works.

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And so, while these creeds are extremely valuable, the

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Protestants thought there were things that needed to be further discussed and examined, and that's one reason why the

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Protestant confessional statements are longer and more detailed, because there were issues that arose at the time of the

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Reformation, the authority of God's Word, and the question of salvation became very specific.

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So, I think creeds can be very educational, they can be very helpful, but we do need to recognize that from a

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Protestant evangelical perspective, the creeds are simply conveying the truth we believe that are taught in God's Word.

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Now, some have contrasted a creed from a confession by saying a creed is typically a shorter list of truths intended to bring about or demonstrate unity, whereas a confession is a more lengthy and detailed document, which is used primarily to distinguish a church from the pack, to set itself apart from others by being more focused on soteriological matters, on ordinances, and things like that, where they have a desire to show their own uniqueness or difference from those around them.

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Would you agree with that contrast in those terms, or are we just unnecessarily quibbling over terminology?

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I find that to be actually a very insightful point of view. I'd never heard it put just that way, but I agree with it.

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I think that, I think creedal statements, again, talking about ecumenical creedal statements, the

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Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed especially, those tend to emphasize the unity, broad kind of Catholicity, not

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Roman Catholic, but the broad area of agreement. I think by the time you get to the

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Protestant Reformation and you begin having confessional statements, they do go further, and sometimes part of the role there is to distinguish

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Protestant from Catholic, maybe even Reformed from Arminian, maybe

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Lutheran from Baptist, etc., and obviously the more you begin to go through broader issues, you're going to raise questions of debate, and you're going to raise questions of where people agree.

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I appreciate the role of both of those. I like to know exactly where is their universal agreement, how significant is that agreement.

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I also like to know where is it that people have differences, not just in the broad branches of Christendom, let's say

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Catholic and Protestant, but there of course are times where it's important for a person to distinguish themselves as a

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Baptist or a Lutheran or a Presbyterian. It's certainly appropriate for people to defend the position that they do.

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I will tell you this, and it's part, I think, of being an apologist.

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C .F. Lewis said in the preface of his little book, Mere Christianity, that has been so popular, you know, it's been more than 50 years ago that he wrote the book,

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Lewis said that when Christians debate the areas of their difference, they should do it behind closed doors, meaning that they should debate these secondary questions among Christians, not wanting to maybe offend or drive away non -Christians.

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I think there is a time, and this is my view, Chris, if I'm going to debate a person, let's say

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I'm going to debate a Roman Catholic, or let's say I'm going to debate a Baptist, I want to know where do we agree?

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How important are those agreements? Then where do we disagree, and how significant are the differences?

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And I think it's important in terms of apologetic to, you know, if you're going to debate pre -millennial, amillennial, post -millennial, are you going to debate the merits of infant baptism, or only baptizing older children or adults?

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Those are robust debates, I think they're important, but I don't think we want to get it in the way and give people the impression that Christianity is deeply divided.

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I think Christianity has some major divisions, but sometimes we can give non -Christians the impression that we can't agree on anything, and so I know you have played a role in having many debates, and I find them helpful and meaningful and purposeful, but I like to let people know where do we agree, and how important is the agreement?

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Then I think it sets the stage for a careful discussion of where we disagree, and what are the implications of that disagreement.

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Yes, it's interesting that you're saying that, because my very dear friend of many years,

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Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, is taking some heat from some folks, some even professedly reformed, because they think that he is being too kind and accommodating when he has public theological dialogue with Muslims, and James White is not one of these individuals inviting people to a tea party where they're just going to be blowing kisses at each other from across the table, and saying how sweet and lovely it is that they have so much in common.

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But on the other hand, if you are expecting people to be painstakingly accurate as to what you believe, and if you expect them to treat you with dignity and integrity, and if you expect them not to distort, twist, or caricature, or make a caricature of what you believe, then why would you do that to them?

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Why would you try to place words in their mouth, or make declarations that they believe certain things that they don't?

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So it's a shame to see brothers in Christ be so harsh against our dear brother

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James, because it's kind of, in some ways, I can't help but find it humorous, because for most of his career as an apologist, people have accused him wrongly and slanderously of being too sectarian, nasty, hard -nosed, and bigoted, and so on, which none of those are true.

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But of course he, and I think every Christian should, be very firm about truth, especially when it involves salvific issues.

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And I believe that we do have much in common with our

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Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox friends, but I do believe that since, especially with Rome, where you have a dogmatic pronouncement of anathemas against those who believe in justification by grace alone through faith alone, and many other of the other primary tenets of soteriology, since that stands as an anathema,

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I cannot just give a blanket open door of brotherly fellowship to my

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Roman Catholic friends and neighbors, because that is still a binding contrast or separation that Rome has as their official teaching.

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Now, of course, as you know, there are individual Catholics that either consciously or unconsciously are disagreeing with their own church's dogma, but those that know the issue,

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I believe that we have to make it clear that these are very dangerous areas. Don't you agree that we can't soft -pedal certain things?

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I think that's the critical point. I think you've said it well, Chris. I think that we don't want to misrepresent other people, because we don't want our faith misrepresented.

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We want to present our case with clarity, with conviction.

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We want to be winsome in our presentation, but we can't back down from truth, and so that is absolutely critical.

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I think Catholics and Protestants share a lot in common. It does concern me deeply that the anathemas from the

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Council of Trent, which was the Catholic Counter -Reformation Council, even though Vatican II refers to Protestants as separated brethren, none of the anathemas have been officially withdrawn.

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Not even by their most liberal pope in history. That's exactly right. So I think your point is a very powerful one, and that is, just as it is important to present our case and treat people with respect and offer an honorable way of looking at other people's faith, we can't back down from doctrinal error.

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Paul says, watch your life and your doctrine closely, and we've got many other areas of people, you know, heretical sects, worlds, religions,

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I mean, there are lots of people who would like to depart from historic

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Christianity and like to criticize it. It's important that Christians stand up for their faith.

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Amen. And I'm going to be going to a station break right now, and before I go to the break,

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I am going to email you a list of questions by a listener in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania.

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Her name is Jenny, and I want you to have them right in front of you, just so you can think about them during the station break, and so you should be receiving this list.

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Look for it under my ironsharpensironradio at gmail .com account, and so we'll have you address each of those issues when we come back from the break.

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I'll read one of them now, the first of her four questions, and they're all good.

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I usually don't let people ask a whole bunch of questions, but her questions are so good, I think it would benefit us to have you answer them.

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And you did actually address this in one of our previous interviews, but I believe a lot of people have not heard that.

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The first question is, what is your opinion concerning Hank Hanegraaff abandoning Protestantism for Eastern Orthodoxy?

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Is he still qualified to be Protestant's Bible Answer Man? We'll have you answer that when we return from the break, there are other questions she asked as well, and I would love to hear from more of you.

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In fact, there are some more of you still waiting to have your questions asked and answered, and we'll get to each of you as time allows.

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But our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA, and please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter. Don't go away,

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God willing, we'll be right back with Kenneth R. Samples. to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a depth that's simply not found in other media outlets armed with this coverage world can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community this trial includes bi -weekly issues of world magazine on -scene reporting from world radio and the fully shareable content of world digital simply visit wmg .org

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forward slash iron sharpens to get your world trial and dr sproles book all free no obligation with no credit card required visit world news group at wng .org

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that's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from solid ground solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio hi i'm pastor bill shishko inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study every saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m

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eastern time on wlie radio www .wlie540am .com

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we bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions our time will be lively useful and i assure you never dull join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs welcome back this is chris sorens and i apologize if uh the ads i'm playing sound different uh sound like they are in different volumes and some very loud and others very soft somebody used the studio and did not return the the settings in their proper positions so i apologize be patient with me as i have to frantically raise volumes and lower volumes as i'm playing these ads until the situation is rectified but if you just tune to in our guest today for the full two hours with 90 minutes to go is kenneth our samples we are discussing uh part two of his book without a doubt answering the 20 toughest faith questions a discussion we began a number of weeks ago on this program and we only got to three of those 20 at that time and we hope to get to more than three today but let's see what happens um these are very deep questions that involve uh thorough answers uh if you want to actually communicate anything meaningful but uh if you'd like to uh join us on the air with a question our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com

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chris arnson at gmail .com and before the break we had a question from jenny in ben salem pennsylvania we have a series of questions and the first one that i read to you was what is your opinion concerning hank hanegraaff abandoning protestantism for eastern orthodoxy is he still qualified to be protestantism's bible answer man yeah uh i appreciate jenny's questions here i should let everybody know that i worked at the christian research institute from 1987 through 1993 one of the first teachers i had in my post -catholic period was of course walter martin who was the founder of the christian research institute the original bible answer man i used to attend walter's bible class that he had in southern california i was fortunate enough to become a research scholar there working with walter and so for most of my my time my tenure at the cri at the christian research institute i worked with walter martin my duties were largely to focus on groups like seventh -day adventism roman catholicism and some other particular areas when walter passed away in june of 1989 uh mr hanegraaff became the president of the christian research institute and then a year or so later he became the full -time bible answer man i was uh one of the people to do the program uh that's how i that's how i became introduced to you that's how i became aware of you and invited you out to long island to participate in a conference at the church where i was a member at the time that's exactly right after martin's death my friend and former colleague craig hawkins was largely the person doing the program after his departure um i did the program with people like rob bowman um and uh other individuals ron rhodes paul carden would do the program so it's kind of a panel show i kind of liked it better that way because we had a little more ammunition more minds to consider things but let me get to jenny's uh question here let me first of all say that eastern orthodoxy is its own distinct branch of christendom it's very easy i think for protestants to think that orthodoxy and catholicism are kind of the same thing they're not uh there are times when orthodoxy actually disagrees with the roman catholic position sometimes they agree with protestants sometimes uh however most of the time they agree with the roman catholic position but they do have uh orthodox do have challenging issues with catholicism relating to the authority of the pope relating to how they understand the bible and tradition and various other things i think the challenge jenny that goes into this is uh the christian research institute has a statement of faith i remember it well because i helped kind of contribute to it and the statement of faith at cri affirms that scripture the bible is the supreme authority uh it's what the protestants called sola scriptura scripture is the final authority um and church tradition may be very valuable it may be very helpful uh but it stands uh to be evaluated in light of the truth of um secondly and the scriptures are and the scriptures are our sole infallible and inerrant authority that's exactly right yes very good they uh you know church tradition has a lot of value uh and i've learned that value over the years as a christian apologist but scripture has uh an authority an inspiration that is distinct from anything associated uh with the church secondly the statement of faith that cri affirms salvation is by grace alone it is through faith in jesus christ life death and resurrection alone uh not by works i i think it's fair to say that the orthodox position is that you are saved by grace it is it is the uh it is sacramental grace that comes through the church it is also through faith in jesus christ but it is completed by works of loving obedience and so like roman catholics orthodox tend to see justification as including both a declaration of forgiveness and righteousness and sanctification so i think the challenge uh jenny to your question and to mr hanegraaff who i might say is now suffering with a very severe form of cancer uh my prayers go out to him uh and to his family i think the challenge is that his affirmation of eastern orthodoxy is at odds in some important places with the statement of cri's uh doctrinal statement so that would be my answer to your your good question there i mean even soteriologically i mean uh that's the even uh on a neck and neck of importance with solo scriptura isn't it yeah i mean absolutely these are these are awfully important issues and um you know orthodoxy and protestantism have some very significant common ground i'll tell you this i think eastern orthodoxy have a terrific focus on the triune nature of god some of the some of the best defenses in church history have come out of uh the eastern church uh their view of the incarnation has always been very strong the orthodox have also had to put up with a lot of persecution from islam and then later from communism there are good things in eastern orthodoxy but the challenge of scripture's authority and salvation by grace alone through faith alone in christ alone stands as sharp differences and so how cri will deal with that i guess we'll just have to wait yeah and don't the eastern orthodox have an unbalanced uh focus on the incarnation of christ in relation to our salvation as opposed to the uh crucifixion and the atonement provided by christ the redemption provided on calvary uh aren't aren't isn't there some sort of imbalance there on in relationship to our salvation yeah these are also important uh areas of distinctiveness with regard to eastern orthodoxy and difference with uh historic protestantism the idea of theosis the idea of the incarnation being the central focus of of redemption uh and orthodox they don't look at penal substitutionary atonement they often talk about christus victor so there is a different orientation and there are times where protestants are quite critical of how uh the incarnation is seen as the model of salvation within eastern orthodoxy on the other hand um you know one of the individuals that orthodox catholics and protestants all kind of celebrate is one of the great heroes of the faith is athanasius and so uh orthodox are very fond of citing athanasius his book on the incarnation and so yeah there are some secondary areas where protestants and orthodox would would disagree um i'm thankful however for the defense of the trinity and the incarnation uh in the historic orthodox tradition and in fact uh athanasius i believe is one of the uh heroes of the faith that prove that sola scriptura existed long prior to the reformation uh the athanasius contra mundum when he was against the world obviously not every single person in the world but the majority of the church in leadership anyway had become arian and he was one of the few voices crying out for the deity of christ in opposition to the majority of those allegedly uh over him with authority yeah what's interesting i think chris is that when you look at athanasius his book on the incarnation you have something similar in my view to uh saint augustine and even the medieval catholic thinker saint thomas aquinas athanasius augustine and aquinas all have a very high view of scripture and there are passages in their writings that lead some of us to think that they leaned at least leaned in the direction that scripture was uniquely authoritative again our catholic and orthodox friends and theologians dispute that but uh there are passages uh from athanasius where he talks very highly about not only the inspiration of scripture but its unique authority and as you say he was the great hero who stood against uh i think the most uh troubling heresy in the history of christendom and that is arianism which reflects the view of christ by jehovah's witnesses who knock at your door and tell you that the trinity is false and that christ is only a creature so uh yeah i mean i mean part of this dynamic between orthodoxy catholicism and protestantism chris is the unfolding of church history and the unfolding of these kinds of issues so there's a lot of area of common ground there are also some very important differences that have to be brought to the bear if we're going to have an honest and charitable and frank discussion amen and one thing that i forgot to say earlier and i'm assuming you would agree with this uh in regard to creeds and confessions and even now history as we are talking about athanasius one of the dangers of being non -confessional and having a disorder a distorted warped understanding of sola scriptura is that it is perhaps unconsciously a claim that you are the smartest man alive and that you don't need the benefit of great minds brilliant men of the past who have hammered through much of the difficult areas of the scripture knowing the many of them knowing the original languages of the scripture and to to boldly claim i don't need any of that you're really saying in in a lot of ways i don't need a teacher i don't need teachers i could just handle this on my own now obviously you would agree i'm sure that yeah someone can be saved by uh picking up a bible and going out in the woods and reading it and reading the gospel and and get and the and the lord uses that to save them uh but the normative way that the men and women are brought to christ and especially discipled is not just by living alone in the woods with your bible that's exactly right and chris i would tell you i mean jenny asks another question here a little later about what subject challenged you in the writing your book i'll you know speak ahead a little bit by telling you that chris one of the things that troubles me about evangelical protestantism is i think that we often don't have a rigorous evaluation of theology of doctrine of church history and i've had friends who have left evangelical protestantism and joined uh the catholic church or the eastern orthodox church and i think often they will note that i didn't know anything about the church fathers i i wasn't exposed to you know some of the the best christian thinkers or um i wasn't given a rigorous apologetic for my faith as a christian and distinctly my faith as a protestant i think it is very very important that uh evangelical protestants appreciate uh church history that we we come to be familiar with the church fathers with the protestant reformation but i would also say this i i think to be a protestant you have to come to grips with martin luther i mean luther was an augustinian monk uh and the story is uh you know that he would go to confession and spend hours in confession and the implication there was that he was never certain if he had ever confessed all of his sins if he'd ever you know truly repented of all of his sins and therefore he had a deep insecurity and i think that luther's discovery rediscovery of the great doctrine of the new testament salvation by grace alone through faith alone in christ alone or justification by faith is so critical in that context and i encourage my catholic and orthodox friends i tend to be a pretty ecumenical guy i like to talk largely uh i like to begin as i mentioned where people agree and i like to talk with people in the other branches and the other denominations i mean i haven't talked to a baptist like you i mean i like to i'd like to say look i think if you want to come to grips with protestantism you have to look at the uniqueness of the authority of scripture and at the question of what saves me and am i can i be assured of my salvation in fact in fact in fact if you could pick up right where you left off because we have to go to a break right now but we'll be right back after these messages with more of ken samples so don't go away one sure way all iron sharpens iron radio listeners can help keep my show on the air is to support my advertisers i know you all use batteries every day so i'm urging you all from now on to exclusively use 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that's batterydepot .com for am i now seeking the approval of man or of god or am i trying to please man if i were still trying to please man i would not be a servant of christ hi i'm mark lukens pastor of providence baptist church we are reformed baptist church and we hold to the london baptist confession of faith of 1689 we are in nofork massachusetts we strive to reflect paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how god views what we say and what we do than how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity but since that wasn't the apostles priority it must not be ours either we believe by god's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of christ in truth and love if you live near nofork massachusetts or plan to visit our area please come and join us for worship and fellowship you can call us at 508 -528 -5750 that's 508 -528 -5750 or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our tv program entitled resting in grace you can find us at providence baptist church ma .org

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that's providence baptist church ma .org or even on sermonaudio .com providence baptist church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio thriving financial is not your typical financial services provider as a membership organization we help christians be wise with money and live generously every day and for the fourth year in a row we were named one of the world's most ethical companies by the ethosphere institute a leading international think tank dedicated to the creation advancement and sharing of best practices in business ethics contact me mike gallagher financial at 717 -254 -6433 again 717 -254 -6433 to learn more about the thriving difference we know we were made for so much more than lending faith finances and generosity that's the thriving story survive we were made to thrive chef exclusive catering is in south central pennsylvania chef exclusives goal is to provide a dining experience that is sure to please any palate chef damian white of chef exclusive is a graduate of the renowned johnson and wales university with a degree in culinary arts and applied science chef exclusive caterings event center is newly designed with elegance and style and is available for small office gatherings bridal showers engagement parties and rehearsal dinners critics and guests alike acknowledge chef exclusives commitment to exceeding even the highest expectations i know of their quality firsthand since chef exclusive catered by most recent iron sharpens iron radio pastor's luncheon for details call 717 -388 -3000 that's 717 -388 -3000 or visit chef exclusive .com

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that's chef exclusive .com church on 225 earl avenue in linbrook long island is teaching god's timeless truths in the 21st century our church is far more than a sunday worship service it's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant it's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement it's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing we're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our lord jesus christ in fellowship play and together hi i'm pastor bob waldeman and i invite you to come and join us here at linbrook baptist church and see all that a church can be call linbrook baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org

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hcbible .org call 609 -494 -5689 609 -494 -5689 harvey cedars where christ finds people and changes lives welcome back this is chris arnzen if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with about an hour to go is my dear old friend ken samples and we are discussing his book part two of his book without a doubt answering the 20 toughest faith questions a discussion we began a number of weeks ago and just barely scratched the surface so we thought it'd be wise to continue on the same theme before i return to our discussion with ken i have some important announcements to make uh first of all uh coming up in just a matter of about two weeks or so we have the foundations conference the conference being orchestrated by sermon audio that's going to be held in new york city in the chelsea section of manhattan on 350 west 26th street and the speakers at this wonderful conference include dr stephen j lawson dr joel beecke phil johnson the executive director of john macarthur's ministry ministry grace to you todd freel the host of wretched tv and wretched radio and a number of other speakers if you would like to register this for this conference and join me there june 22nd through the 23rd the email i'm sorry the website address is the foundations conference .com

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the foundations conference .com and then following that conference the fellowship conference new england is being held august 3rd through the 5th at the deering center community church in portland maine and the speakers at that conference include don curran of don curran ministries and heart cry missionary society which is the ministry founded by paul washer my dear friend pastor mac tomlinson who is an author and a pastor at providence chapel in denton texas uh also on the roster is pastor jesse barrington pastor of grace life church in dallas texas a sister church of grace life church in lake city florida whose radio station airs this program uh pastor nate pickowitz who's an author and pastor of harvest bible church in gilminton ironworks new england in fact we're going to be having uh nate pickowitz on uh very shortly on iron sharpens iron radio to discuss his book reviving new england if you'd like to uh join me at that conference you can register at fellowship conference new england .com

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fellowship conference new england .com and then in the fall november to be exact from the 17th through the 18th of november in quakertown pennsylvania the alliance of confessing evangelicals is having the quakertown conference on reform theology featuring kent hughes peter jones tom dennis cahill and scott oliphant the theme is for still our ancient foe which is quite providential because we're going to be picking up the discussion with ken samples in a moment about martin luther uh for still our ancient foe is obviously a line from the hymn a mighty fortress penned by the great reformer martin luther uh if you'd like to join me at that conference where i will have a a uh an exhibitor's booth god willing go to alliancenet .org

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alliancenet .org click on events and then click on the quakertown conference on reform theology for still our ancient foe last but not least from january 18th through the 20th 2018 the g3 conference returns to atlanta georgia and next year's theme will be knowing god a biblical understanding of discipleship and speakers include paul washer stephen lawson vody baucom hb charles jr tim challis josh bias my dear friend dr james r white of alpha omega ministries tom askell of founders ministries anthony methenia michael kruger david miller paul trip todd friel derrick thomas and martha peace and more if you would like to uh join me at the g3 conference i'll have an exhibitor's booth there god willing as well already received the final word from josh bice that he is setting up an exhibitor's booth for me and i'm so grateful to him for that if you'd like to register go to g3 conference .com

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g3 conference .com and please when you're registering for any of these events or even merely just contacting these organizations to find out more about those conferences please let them know that you heard about the events from chris arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio that will make a great deal to me and of course i have to do my daily pitch for money my advertisers have urged me to make public appeals for donations and more advertisers because we are in urgent need of your financing if you desire iron sharpens iron to remain on the air if you do value what we do if you enjoy it if it's a part of your daily routine in fact if you even love this program we would hope that you could find it within your heart to donate to us now i have to repeat i never want anybody to siphon money out of the regular giving to their local church please never do that and and if you are struggling to make ends meet i do not want to take food off of your family's dinner table but if you have been blessed above and beyond your ability to to support your church and provide for your home please considering donating to iron sharpens iron radio i am uh weekly i am blown away by the generosity of some of you in the audience who love this program enough to reach within your wallet and send us a check and some of those folks some of you folks who have done that i have never even heard from before uh some of you have never submitted a question some of you are from states in this country that i didn't even know i had listeners so i am very uh very pleased uh to receive these checks and of course if you want to advertise with us go to iron sharpens iron radio .com

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iron sharpens iron radio .com click on support and uh i'm sorry you can send us an email if you want to uh advertise with us send me an email at chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com and uh put in the subject line advertising and i would love to discuss advertising with you because we certainly need the the dollars from your advertisements well now we are finally back involved in our discussion with ken samples we have been and will continue discussing his book without a doubt answering the 20 toughest faith questions this is a continuation of of an interview we began several weeks ago but this is quite a thorough book on some deep issues that require sometimes more thorough and lengthy answers and if you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com before we went to the break ken you were talking about martin luther knowing of the real pivotal issue the primary issue of the reformation that separated the reformers from the church of rome in regard to justification by faith alone and you were talking i believe about assurance as well when we went to the break yes and i you know i want to focus a bit on you know jenny's question i think that one of the challenges in our evangelical world is that our churches are not often enough schools i'm not saying that there aren't many things the church has to be a place of worship a place of fellowship a place of you know instruction many things it also needs to be a school and evangelical protestants need to be taught about church history they need to be taught about the great truth of scripture and i think that you know when we look at the uniqueness of protestantism and i talk with people i know who are catholic or orthodox i i do bring up luther and i bring up the issue of not having assurance of your salvation not knowing whether have i done enough have i done enough works that will be acceptable to god i think that the doctrine of justification by faith is so critical in in that context and again i want to encourage our churches you know to grow in their understanding of of the development of historic christianity and its awareness of church history so i know those are issues that you care about and you talk about on your very fine program and i i want that to to continue i think the more you know about christianity the more you know about the history of your faith the more you're able to appreciate the distinctive features of the faith as a whole end of a uh you know a a biblical and in that way a protestant point of view well one of the other uh questions excellent questions that jenny brings up actually i think has to do with a uh chapter in your book is jesus a man myth madman menace mystic martian or the messiah you really expanded on c .s

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lewis's uh question i believe uh it's jesus lunatic liar or lord you added a lot more in those and they were necessary to be added in the 21st century because you do have crazy people saying that jesus may have been an alien but uh she actually poses the question how can an atheist continue to deny that jesus ever existed there were over 20 secular sources mostly roman and jewish sources in the talmud that confirmed jesus lived how can you confront that willful blindness interesting question because i found out a number of years ago when i arranged a debate with dr james r white and david silverman david silverman is a notorious atheist who is the current president of madeline murray o 'hare's organization american atheists they debated on the theme is the new testament evil uh it was supposed to be the theme that christopher hitchens was uh going to debate on with dr white christopher hitchens graciously agreed to participate in that debate uh even at a much lower rate or for a much lower honorarium that he that he was used to but then as we all know now he developed esophageal cancer and uh he died before well actually he didn't die before the debate but he he was too seriously ill to to participate in it and subsequently died but so david silverman filled in and debated on that issue uh uh and of course dr white highlighted that an atheist really has no foundation to claim anything good or evil uh if we're merely evolved bags of protoplasm there's there's no way that we could dictate what is good or evil for anyone else but um after after that debate was over david silverman uh said that he would like to debate uh james white on the myth of jesus that jesus was really just a product of pagan myths that had been christianized and um when i when i reminded david silverman uh months later about his challenge to debate that issue he was traveling and could not participate so i started calling major atheists i believe i contacted most or all of the four horsemen of the apocalypse uh of course christopher hitchin was already passed away at that point uh but they all said no right -thinking atheist worth his salt will defend that anymore we all pretty much know that jesus christ was a real historic figure we just don't believe that he was god because we don't believe there is a god but if you could comment on that yeah there is uh there is a movement within the skeptical community the atheist community there's a an individual named robert price who has developed or brought back uh into vogue at least the degree that he that he can the idea of a christ myth and um i think what's interesting about that is that it it is a it is an interesting strategy in kind of combating these issues as jenny has uh correctly you know set forth not only do we have uh powerful manuscript evidence for the new testament that these books were written early that they were written by eyewitnesses or people who associated with eyewitnesses of jesus's life death and resurrection but as jenny mentioned there are references outside the new testament some jewish some roman some greek that mention jesus or mention uh first century christianity and there have been many people uh both believer and unbeliever who have said that uh you know the idea i mean even bart ehrman who is a skeptic who is very critical now of christianity he was once a pretty conservative christian theologian bart ehrman says that of course jesus existed uh in fact in fact the jesus seminar would they would be conservative because they would argue well surely jesus existed i think that the strategy here chris is by arguing a christ myth is that if if i argue that he never existed then i don't have to deal with the new testament data i don't have to deal with the powerful arguments about the life of jesus his extraordinary death his resurrection so i think in some ways uh it's it's a willingness to adopt a radical skepticism in the hope that they don't have to deal with some powerful arguments but of course again the problem is uh if you say you can't know anything about jesus or that he didn't exist well then you you can't say anything about aristotle or plato or julius caesar uh and of course all of the academy the university is based upon a classical perspective so um i think this christ myth idea is uh one that is it is not defensible it is not uh one that is in any way consistent with the data and i'm very happy to say that we not only know about jesus from many of these first and second century people outside of the bible but there's wonderful historical support that the gospels we have reflect the authentic person of jesus and so i try to develop that i do expand c .s

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lewis's uh trilemma because as you know there are people who who do raise question of maybe jesus was mythical or uh we have peculiar cultic groups that come along and say all kinds of things but the best explanation the powerful explanation as lewis said in his book mere christianity the shocking alternative is that jesus is god in human flesh and uh i think that's a great way of approaching things with people i do that in my most latest book god among sages where i've debated a hindu and a buddhist recently comparing jesus with krishna comparing jesus with with the buddha so uh very very important to defend the integrity of the new testament and our account of the person of jesus christ and we'll take one more question from jenny how can we get through how can we get through to monolithic christians that is christians that have a one -track mind when it comes to various topics but in this case muslims are we not to evangelize muslims in truth and love i'm not a hundred percent sure what she means by this question obviously we are to evangelize anybody with in truth and love uh but if you could perhaps if you have a deeper insight into what she is asking perhaps you could just respond yeah i'm like you i'm not quite sure what angle jenny's coming at it from i can say this though chris that you know i think we have to be careful about thinking all muslims believe alike uh i think we need to recognize that there is diversity within islam um i hope and i pray that the number of muslims that would engage in violence against innocent people is a small one uh but yet i think that we need to uh we need to be careful in the way that we reflect islamic theology that is uh we want to communicate with them we want to dialogue with them and i think sometimes it is possible that in the evangelical world we kind of oversimplify things we kind of think that uh you know all atheists reason the same way all muslims reason the same way i think it's important to appreciate that we want to practice the golden rule of apologetics which essentially means uh treat people's beliefs the way you want yours treated i'm not going to misrepresent islam if i do i will apologize not going to represent misrepresent the mormons i'm not going to misrepresent the buddhists i'm going to work my tail off to get it right and i'm going to present jesus as the son of god the savior who is superior to muhammad superior to krishna to buddha to confucius and all others so sometimes i get a little concerned that uh you know christians don't give more don't want to treat other people with with integrity meaning that people are made in the image of god and they're worthy of our respect even though we disagree with them fundamentally on some of their ideas they're made in the image of god they have inherent dignity let's be respectful but let's also be bold in our witness for christ i mean look at what what the apostle paul did on mars hill i mean he didn't just uh start ranting and raving and uh you know uh cursing all of those people um all those pagans and so on but um the uh this is interesting issue because i uh had brought up the fact that when i was having uh an internet dispute with somebody who was foaming at the mouth about any kindness being extended towards muslims this person was identifying himself as a christian and when i when i mentioned that the command not to bear false witness against thy neighbor includes muslims this this person who called himself a christian actually said muslims are not my neighbors so obviously he was indicating that he believed it was okay to slander someone and lie about them as as long as they were muslim or not his neighbor uh but uh that's a ridiculous response obviously that that applies for anybody and as i've said before on this program if you are uh called upon as a witness in a courtroom during a murder trial and you were an eyewitness to two murders being committed by the person on trial and you say that the person committed three murders that's still a wicked sin you're still bearing false witness if you're making up the third murder and you know if you tell people that the grand dragon of the ku klux klan eats puppy dogs for breakfast every morning it's still a slander no matter how despicable and evil the man is you know we're not given a license to lie about people and it's ironic that the the same christians who decry the practice of taqiyya by muslims which is the islamic validation of muslims lying for very various reasons it's like christians are doing the same thing but they don't care if they're exaggerating or being sloppy with their apologetics when describing what muslims believe i i think it's just so important chris that we treat truth as if it is sacred i mean jesus was motivated always by truth and by love i think both should be reflected in our way of thinking you're exactly right i mean we don't have a right to misrepresent to engage in falsehoods and you know i i'll tell you when i listen to somebody talk i'm asking are they careful are they fair are they thoughtful how do they treat other people and when i see those things they are very powerful and that's the way we should engage in evangelism apologetics missions we should be well known as people who care about truth who treat people with respect because they're made in the image of god and that we are bold we won't back down uh we're committed to uh the truth of jesus christ his life death and resurrection and when i see those things that i hope to reflect those kinds of things i think it's a very powerful you know witness and uh so yeah we've uh we've got some growing to do as a broader church community and uh it's important i think for christian leaders to to encourage people to grow in the areas of always be ready to give to every man an answer a reason for the hope that you have but do it with gentleness respect keeping a clear conscience a a winsome approach is a very powerful approach and of course uh i believe that muslims are lost in their sins they will be damned without the blood of christ covering them without faith in christ they are eternally damned and if you want to see them rescued from that condition do you want to speak believably to them i mean if you start exaggerating or distorting or sloppily handling facts and you don't do your research and you you're presenting yourself as some kind of an expert if a muslim hears you saying things that that they or nor no other muslim ever believed uh they're not going to listen to the rest of you i i what they're not going to listen to the rest of what you have to say uh i have heard roman catholics and armenian evangelicals and even members of cults totally distort what i believe as a protestant as a protestant and calvinist christian uh and my mind shut that my mind shuts down automatically and i turn a deaf ear to them i don't even want to have any dialogue with them anymore if they persist in just misrepresenting me and and that's obviously what's going to happen with the enemies of the gospel if we are if we are misrepresenting them how are they going to take us seriously about what we are representing in regard to christianity such an important area you know to to be able to uh and i'm the same way i mean um i'm looking is this person careful are they fair -minded it's okay if they disagree with me but do they treat my points of view have they done their homework uh then i'm then i'm open i'm willing to have some give and take but yeah the golden rule of apologetics not only should we treat other people the way we want to be treated at least we strive to do that sanctification is a long and challenging road but we should also try to be fair and careful in the way we treat other people's beliefs and ideas because we certainly want other people to to treat our beliefs with with care and respect by the way ken i just sent you an email i forwarded you an email from joe in slovenia who has a very lengthy question so i wanted you to have it in front of you so you could more adequately respond to it when we return from our final break this is our last break and if anybody would like to join us on the air if we have time uh send us an email address at chris arnson at gmail .com

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chris arnson at gmail .com obviously if you intend to send in a question i strongly urge you to do it now chris arnson at gmail .com

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don't go away we'll be right God willing with ken samples and more of our discussion

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eastern time on wlie radio www .wlie540am .com

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we bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions our time will be lively useful and i assure you never dull join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor welcome back this is chris arnton i have to lower now my volumes because of the uh friend of mine who just screwed everything up in the studio uh and left it uh without returning the the volumes and all the other knobs back to where they are supposed to be but it's one of those lessons in forgiveness that i have to learn forgiveness and patience but anyway uh we are back now with the last 25 minutes or so of our discussion with kenneth our samples uh this is part two of a discussion we began weeks ago on his book without a doubt answering the 20 toughest faith questions if you'd like to join us on the air before we run out of time our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com and by the way jenny in ben salem pennsylvania we don't have any books to give away uh today because we gave away all of the copies of without a doubt that we had uh during our last interview with ken so uh my apologies that there are no free books today for our listeners but having said that before the break joe in slovenia says i've been hearing christians claiming that prayer is a two -way conversation with god it seems that they are implying if not plainly affirming that we as believers are to expect to hear back from god during prayer i'm familiar with passages in hebrews like hebrews 1 verses 1 and 2 peter chapter 1 17 through 19 teaching that scripture is our authoritative source of god's voice to us today i am uh i am a convinced cessationist however exegetically i don't see that these texts specifically rule out the claim that god speaks to believers during prayer do these or other texts actually rise to that application if so explain how so are there other more plainly conclusive texts that teach us not to expect to be hearing a voice from god in prayer thank you so much for being willing and able to deal with the toughest faith questions yes i appreciate uh joe's uh interesting questions there let me say a couple things to the issue that he's raised i think if we think theologically and doctrinally we recognize that that uh you know the apostles were authoritative uh when they were living uh but they have died and they have recorded their witness to christ in the holy scripture uh and scripture is unique it's unique to church councils it's unique to the church fathers it is unique to bishops and popes and all of these kinds of individuals certainly when we pray we can have confidence that god hears us because we're in union uh through the lord jesus christ god can clearly answer our prayers and does uh he may do it providentially it's possible for god to work a miracle um i think however scripture clearly says that uh you know you're not supposed to believe things easily or simply uh when we read scripture we do hear the voice of the holy spirit the holy spirit is the one who has inspired scripture uh and it is unique um i think of the passage uh in in tennessee where it speaks of uh scripture as our authority that it speaks to doctrinal issues it speaks to a life so that we are you know fully uh affirmed to to live that life yeah god can speak to our heart through our conscience he can speak to us through how he works things out providentially but to go seeking a voice or to go looking for somebody who is going to represent the apostles or represent god i think all of that is deeply disconcerting it's what we find in cult yeah there are christians who are charismatic there are christians who are not who believe that the sign gifts have ceased for today but there is something powerfully unique uh in in scripture and yeah i think god can speak to our hearts uh but he can do it in many different ways he can do it by convicting us he can do it by blessing us he can do it by other people but you know the question of looking for a voice that voice is in scripture and pray with confidence put your request unto the lord but prayer should never be separated from a reading and study and reflection of god's word so that would be my response uh joe and uh you know you could take a look in a couple of my books where i talk about the authority of scripture that might be might be helpful to you well thank you joe if you always provide insightful questions for iron trip and zion radio keep spreading the word about our program in slovenia and beyond and um one of the things that i wanted to ask you about uh from your book uh is uh this is something that obviously uh we would be facing when we have dialogue with our muslim uh friends and neighbors and our mormon and jehovah's witness friends and neighbors how can god be three in one yeah yeah well i i'm really glad you you raised that question chris i think that the doctrine of the trinity is such a crucial doctrine it is arguably along with the incarnation uh the most distinctive doctrinal feature of our faith and i think it it it is something we can use very powerfully as we dialogue with people i had i've had a couple discussions with uh islamic apologists these were kind of on the internet informal dialogue debate types of things that happen from time to time and uh you know i asked the muslim i said look uh in the quran it says that uh that allah doesn't need anything he is completely independent he's not dependent upon creation or any creature or anything like that it also says in the quran he has 99 names and one of them is the loving and my understanding the arabic conveys the idea that it is a lover giving to the beloved so i said you know let me ask you this uh since you don't believe in the trinity and you are basically adopting a unitarian view that there's one god one person he has one nature one person i said who did allah love and eternity before he created angels and human beings and we went back and forth and up and down and all over the place they got mad at me they called me names they were frustrated but i just kept coming back at them you know i kept saying look they said well you know he talked to the angels well no angels are creatures so finally after a very long period of time both of these islamic apologists on the web said to me we don't know who allah loved in eternity i said you know what that's okay i said why don't you go back and ask one of your imams and i said let me now tell you about the trinity the triune god the father loves the son in the holy spirit from all eternity and i said that um you know the scripture doesn't say that god is loving it says god is love so i said unlike allah the triune god doesn't need to create to fulfill himself he doesn't need to create in order to find love rather the triune god is is sufficient in and of itself so god doesn't need us but he wants us and you know i said the same thing i had an opportunity to talk to two jewish fellows one was a religious jew one was a bit skeptical but they wanted to talk with me and i i asked them the same question i said you know if i understand traditional judaism who did yahweh love in eternity and they were stunned they said you know nobody ever asked me this question before the doctor of the trinity is so important in our discussion with other monotheistic religions it is also relevant to dealing with eastern mystical religions and then of course there are plenty of american -based cults jehovah's witnesses mormons the mormons are tritheists uh the jehovah's witnesses are arians i think the doctor of the trinity is a remarkable truth not only powerful in our witness and our evangelism and our apologetics but very comforting in the sense that you know god is and can be a loving being because god is analogous to a family father son and spirit now it's not the same as a mom and a dad and a child but it is speaking analogously and i think that uh the doctrine of the trinity tells us a lot about you know the the way our family should be run the way our churches should be run and i find the doctrine of the trinity to be very very powerful and a doctrine that is derived from scripture a doctrine that you know uniquely reveals all three of the divine person so i spend a good bit of time in my chapter defending explaining the trinity defending the trinity contrasting it with other different points of view and i have lots of scriptural passages that i also raise uh objections that are made to the trinity how is it a logical contradiction to say god is one and three and i look at analogies that can be used so i um i can't think of a more important doctrinal truth uh in fact i'll tell you this chris every cult every non -christian sect they deny two things they deny the trinity and they deny salvation by grace and it's because they're connected we're saved by the father salvation comes from the father it's accomplished in the son and it's applied by the holy spirit so i uh i love to talk about the trinity i love to teach about the trinity and i want to invite people to investigate that chapter because our god is different than all other understandings of the nature of god and even though historic christianity comes out of the old testament and we have a deep connection to judaism there are unique and distinctive features uh about how we understand god that is different from the way uh traditional jews understand god now you referred before to mormons as being tritheists or aren't they even uh even more amazingly uh heretical in regard to god because they're really he no theists uh they believe in an infinite number of gods they believe in so many gods that they make hindus blush don't they well this is the interesting thing joseph smith i think was a tritheist uh but you're right you know he no theism the idea that you can worship one god within the context of being of having many gods and we see this all the time in the context of you know talking with monotheistic groups talking with uh polytheistic groups i mean what's what's interesting chris is in hinduism while they have pantheism they have a popular pluralism of 330 million gods you also have bhakti hindus who believe in one god kind of well there are many gods but we decide to worship one god so the trinity is is incredibly relevant if you begin a study and reflect about the doctrine of the trinity i guarantee you go somewhere and talk with somebody and people will have questions that are relevant to the truth that the one god exists as three distinct but not separate persons father son and holy spirit so very important that our churches teach worship uh you know instruct people on uh on trinitarianism and speaking of mormons uh i want everybody to mark their calendars for july 3rd monday july 3rd uh 4 to 6 p .m

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eastern time i am going to have the entire uh group the music ministry out of adams road actually physically in the studio here in carlisle pennsylvania adams road is a christian music ministry made up entirely uh well at least uh three of the four i believe uh members of adams road are former mormons so this will be quite a fascinating interview these are wonderful young people committed to the true christ and true gospel of holy scriptures and as i said three of the four of them former mormon now in fact i've even had the mother of two of them i think it's at least two of the members uh lynn wilder who is a former mormon now a christian uh but i hope that you tune in to hear these very talented people will be playing excerpts of their music during the the interview and also obviously getting to hear more about their conversion experiences from darkness into light from mormonism to christianity um the uh one of the things that is touches on the trinity obviously is the hypostatic union uh and you have a chapter in your book how can jesus christ be both god and man and obviously our muslim and jehovah's witness friends and neighbors believe he can't right in fact you would probably have this many mainstream uh mainline denominational liberals who would say the same thing jesus christ it's just a wonderful teacher and so on great man a great humble uh self -sacrificing selfless man but not god but if you could yes very important notice that uh there is a lot of pushback when it comes to the trinity and the incarnation jesus being a single person who has both a divine and human nature the hypostatic union there is a union of those two natures found in the person of jesus christ and you're absolutely right i mean uh jews and muslims are troubled by the idea that christians would worship jesus as the son of god something they did from the very beginning and obviously there are plenty of people today it's i think it's fascinating chris that in the ancient world people had a hard time believing jesus was a man today they have difficulty believing he was god historic christianity says jesus was both god and man in the new testament lots of solid evidence that jesus saw himself that way before abraham comes into existence jesus says i am using the most sacred name of god in the old testament isaiah even the book of god likes to refer to himself as i am or i am he jesus says i and the father are one the new testament has a high christology and in fact the the jews uh from an earthly standpoint if you remove the orchestration and for ordaining of christ dead death by the father himself the jews never would have called out for christ's execution if he was not making it clear that he believed to be himself to be the god man i think that's right on the money i mean the high priest recognizes that jesus is making claims to divinity and you know think of how important the incarnation is because jesus is both god and man he can reconcile god and man his death on the cross brings god and man together i think it's also important to be able to talk about what are some of the challenges i mean in my latest book god among sages but i also have some discussion and without a doubt i use a metaphor i say maybe we should think about jesus's humanity and divinity the way we think of a person who has citizenship in two countries and who speaks two languages you know you look at somebody like a net yahoo the leader of uh the nation of israel he can speak hebrew impeccably and then in a moment change to english what if we thought of the incarnation that way that jesus is both divine and human and again that is part of the essential elements of christianity jesus saw himself as both god and man the early christians worshipped him that way and you're right i mean talk with a jehovah's witness talk with a muslim a jew or a theological liberal and you'll get a lot of pushback that's again why it's so important that christians think about the doctrine of the incarnation that they're familiar with the biblical support for the doctrine and are able to defend it from the challenges that come in our culture so i like it that you've picked up on the trinity and the incarnation boy there's so important i spent a lot time in the book trying to explain support uh give give somebody a tool chest where they can uh you know drill down and prepare themselves uh in their understanding about their faith and be able to communicate it uh in a in a thoughtful and reflective way and of course don't you think that uh some of it we have to just uh we have to recognize that there are things in the realm of mystery in the mind of god that we will never figure out because sometimes when we are trying to use pictures extra biblical pictures and analogies and allegories uh they've they in some way they typically fall apart and sometimes they even either border on or leap over the line into modalism where we're giving the picture that that that you know sometimes uh jesus is god sometimes he's man or sometimes god is the father sometimes he's jesus sometimes he's the holy spirit which is not what we believe as trinitarians it's true that there's much mystery about god god is an infinite eternal tri -personal spiritual being we are finite creatures much about god is mysterious there are also though great truths that we've been taught there are times analogies can be helpful and meaningful and purposeful sometimes they can crash and burn and become very unhelpful or distort the truth that we have but we we do believe that we have been given revelation from god and there are helpful ways of thinking about the incarnation and the trinity and there are ways that are not helpful and are are counter to uh biblical points of view so uh i wish more churches i chris i can't tell you how many christians i've met and i ask them how many sermons have you ever heard on the trinity and i can't believe how many tell me i've never heard a sermon on the trinity i've never been introduced thoroughly to a biblical point of view on the trinity and um our churches need a lot of help we need to equip our people we need to help our people i want to invite everybody who's listening to give consideration to my book without a doubt simply because it will it will introduce you to these doctrines that i just think are so incredibly important well i'd like you to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today in about three minutes well let me tell you i uh i really appreciate you chris i want to uh invite your listeners uh not only to listen to your really fine show you have a heart for evangelism you have a heart for christian apologetics you're a a stickler to doctrine and uh you've always been a good friend to me and i thank you for being generous enough to spend uh so much time with me to talk about my books i'm grateful for that i also want to encourage people to realize that we live in a global society i mean 50 years ago if you wanted to talk to a muslim or a buddhist or a hindu you'd have to go overseas no more uh whether you whether you live in pennsylvania whether you live in california or new york you have an influx of of people who bring their ideas and their beliefs and and even if there were no people in the world's religions or you know in some of the american -based religions there are lots of people who don't know god who have never cracked the bible who don't have a christian background and uh you know i want to i want to encourage people to to grow in their knowledge of christ to to grow in uh historic christianity to be familiar with their bible and to be bold you know uh when a jehovah's witness knocks on your door do a little studying do a little reflection reflective study of scripture get a hold of my book or some of the good books on the topic and you know invite the people in and say hey let's let's talk about who jesus is let's let's talk about the trinity you don't have to know everything about jehovah's witnesses to witness for jesus you don't have to know everything about mormonism to talk about the person of christ and you don't have to know everything about islam to be able to say jesus is so distinct and unique he is the son of god so thank you for having me on your wonderful show i hope people will give and give generously and chris has been really a such a pleasure to know you over the years see your heart for uh for evangelism for christian doctrine so keep up the good work i appreciate that and one uh clarification i'm sure you would agree that there are some christians who are such novices so new in the faith still wet with baptismal water that they should not perhaps invite people in cults and false religions into their home because they could just get their mind in a knot if you if you follow me you need to do some study you need to you need to be prepared um scripture says that peter tells us be ready the only way you can be ready is by gaining tools and developing um and you know you can get into discussions and if you don't know an answer you can say look hey you're gonna have to come back because we got to deal with some issues but you're right um cults can you know i remember the first time i talked to with the jehovah's witness he tied me in knots i mean he he he drove me back and that's when i discovered walter martin began studying the trinity the deity of christ began studying scripture so yeah scripture preparation going to a good church can help you in all of these ways and we're out of time and if you'd like to get uh ken's book without a doubt go to reasons .org

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reasons .org or cvbbs .com cvbbs .com i hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.