2 Timothy 3, Amillenialism, Postmillenialism

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2 Timothy 3, Amillenialism, Postmillenialism

00:32

And greetings, welcome to the Dividing Line, it's Thursday afternoon, and yeah,

00:38

I know I never talk about this particular subject, there's a reason for it. I was noticing even earlier today, the subject of eschatology came up in channel, and even folks that are normally on the same page with one another, if they have an eschatological difference, all of a sudden the knives come out, the long swords, the concealed carry weapon permits, and everything else, and it's just not my experience that most people can handle eschatological discussions with much in the way of equanimity.

01:12

Now in my experience, and it is a limited experience, of, let me define something first here, for those of you who may not have a lot of background in theological terminology and things like that, eschatology is the study of last things, eschaton in Greek, last.

01:36

And so there are areas of eschatology that I am, I've spoken on many times, the return of Christ, the concept of resurrection, punishment for sin,

01:52

I've tried to resist becoming the apologist for hell, but something tells me I'm not going to be able to avoid that forever.

01:59

So those are elements of eschatology, and they're vitally important. But generally, when people talk about eschatology, they are talking about the three, primary three, and there's subdivisions in each one, major interpretive schemes concerning the order of events in regards to the second coming, judgment, setting up of the eternal state.

02:32

And the three general schemes are the premillennial, the amillennial, and the postmillennial.

02:41

And then there's all sorts of divisions, and that's one of the problems, is there are so many subcategories and divisions within each one of these camps, not so much in the amillennialist camp, but anyway, you've got your optimistic amillennialists and you've got your pessimistic amillennialists.

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But then amongst your premillers, you've got your dyspy premillers and your historic premillers, and amongst your dyspy premillers, you've got pre -trib, post -trib, mid -trib, pre -wrath.

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There's just so many, so much stuff there. And of course, if all you ever watched was

03:26

TBN, you would only know that that's the only group that exists, basically, because you've got really big guys with really big charts, and just with colors and lines, and it looks like Amway on steroids.

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It's just, it's amazing. So if that's all you're exposed to, then you find out that there are people who go,

03:52

I don't think there's a rapture, what are you talking about? Where'd you come from? Everybody believes that, and then you get the posties, and they're way out there.

04:01

So you've got all these different theories and stuff like that, and I tend to avoid it for a couple reasons.

04:10

For full revelation here and transparency, I guess that's the big word today is transparency.

04:18

For all transparency, I was raised dispensational premillennial. I remember taking my college entrance, well, no,

04:27

I think it was a California Achievement Test, is that what they were back then? Anyway, senior year in high school, and I get done, you turn it in, but you have to stay there, you have to sit there.

04:39

And I was reading Hal Lindsey's The Late Great Planet Earth. I remember it had a red cover, and I think it had yellow page edges for some reason.

04:48

I'm not really sure why. Anyway, so J. Dwight Pentecost and all that, that was, in fact,

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I remember a lock -in in 1979, 1980 -ish, as I recall, at North Phoenix Baptist Church, a youth lock -in, which means you stay all night.

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And I was explaining to the people that were around me about what was coming, eschatology and stuff, and back then you could have tritium watches.

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Remember these? Some of you, you're old enough, Ken, you remember tritium watches? You don't remember tritium watches?

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Oh, okay. We used to have, we used to actually have watches that had radioactive stuff in it.

05:35

Thankfully, it put off alpha particles, which couldn't get through a piece of paper, so you were cool. But it would glow all the time.

05:40

It wasn't like you had to put it in light, it would glow all the time. And it was bright enough that once you were in the dark for a long time, if you put it next to a book, you could actually sort of read.

05:52

That's how I was looking at Matthew 24 or something. Okay, that's where I was coming from. Then, in college, my, especially

06:02

Dr. D .C. Martin, was an omiler. And we had arguments, good arguments, you know, but I'd never heard any other perspective.

06:13

And it was primarily when I started studying comparative religion and homiletics and hermeneutics and all the various H -words there, that I became concerned that the hermeneutical methodology

06:30

I was using in looking at especially Revelation and Daniel was not what I was using in any other subject.

06:39

And so, for a long time, I called myself a pan -millennialist. It'll all pan out in the end.

06:44

Which is a nice way of saying, I don't want to argue about it. I'm not convinced one way or the other.

06:51

And it's not really the front issue on the burner for me. And then, as I've mentioned many times before,

06:57

I don't remember how many years ago it was. But I was given, well, this shows you how many years ago it was.

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I was given a cassette tape series. You do remember cassette tapes? Yes, okay. All right.

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Still have a few hanging around in boxes someplace? Yeah, okay. I was given a cassette tape series.

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We have a live studio audience today. Other than Rich, who normally is live, but isn't always paying attention.

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A cassette tape series, don't even bother, by Dr. Greg Nichols from Trinity Ministerial Academy.

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And I don't know where I was going, but I know that at least at one point, I was listening to it while driving somewhere between Flagstaff and the

07:44

Grand Canyon. I just remember that, up on the reservation someplace. And his series was on the now and the not yet.

07:55

It was basically asking the question, what was Jesus's eschatology? And what is the age, the present age and the age to come?

08:07

Present age and the age to come. And he did just an exhaustive study of what

08:13

Jesus taught about the difference between this age and the age to come. And I was absolutely convinced from that series.

08:23

That made perfect sense. It didn't require you to take this and hook it up with this in light of the possibility of this.

08:32

And then you had to have the seven headed beast over here. No, it was real simple, straightforward.

08:41

And I became a non -millennialist. And I'm like, you know what? That's the same interpretive methodology

08:49

I use every place else. Yay, move on. I didn't go and read a bunch of books, didn't start a campaign, didn't put it on my website.

08:58

I didn't have a website then. I was just like, OK, fine, we'll go on from there.

09:06

So that's pretty much how I've handled it. But I recognize that very often your conclusions on this, and here's one thing that concerns me, your conclusions on this subject, just like you're apologetic, should flow out of your theology.

09:29

Very often for people, they grab on to something in one of these systems and then that determines your theology.

09:39

Wrong direction. I would really think on this matter especially, that there should be a natural, seamless flow from your theology into your eschatology rather than your eschatology backflowing and determining where you go theologically.

09:59

And there are some folks that this is their main thing. You know,

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I mean, it becomes focused upon this. And I'm sorry, there's a lot about eschatology in the

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New Testament, but on this subject of the specifics of order and things like that, doesn't seem to be the primary focus of the

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New Testament writers. Doesn't mean that we shouldn't think about it. You can charge me with being lazy or something because I don't read every book that comes down the pike on it.

10:34

OK, that's fine. But one thing we have to be very, very, very careful of is making sure that the interpretive methodology that you use to present and defend the

10:51

Trinity, the deity of Christ, the person of the Holy Spirit, the doctrine of the atonement, soteriology as a whole, ecclesiology, all the central aspects of gospel studies, your hermeneutics need to be the same.

11:07

It needs to, your exegesis should not change. And that's what prompted this particular program.

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Is that is, I read a brief article, which I will read for you here in a few minutes. And I went, eh, it just struck me as, as being one of the, an example of where the, the hermeneutic and exegesis just didn't seem consistent with what you would normally expect to find.

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But let's look at a text of scripture first. I've asked Rich to have it ready here on the, on the screen for you.

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And that is, this was about second Timothy chapter three. So can't assume that everyone just off the top of your head goes, oh, second

11:55

Timothy chapter three. Let's take a look at it. Let's, let's read through it and see what it has to say.

12:01

All right. But realize this, that in the last days, so you, you've definitely got eskates haemeris there.

12:09

So the last days, difficult times will come. And you, you could, you know, they're, they're difficult and Tyroi can be times, seasons, things like that.

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But, but you definitely have an esk, eskatology there. There's, there's eskates.

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So you've got, there's clearly the indicator that this is definitely relevant.

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In the last days, of course, everybody has to define what last days is. I would say we've been in them for a long time.

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But, but realize this in last days, difficult times will come for men will be, that's a, there's an amazing word, fell out toy, lovers of self, man, if that doesn't describe

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Western civilization, I don't know what does. Lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, boy,

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I almost said something about Houston there, but I'll skip it. Disobedient parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, which, which would actually isn't just, you'll notice it's not the term for agape or phileo or anything like that there.

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It's, it's really lacking normal affection. The affection would be normally a part of the created person in the, in the image of God.

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Irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self -control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God.

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So if you look at lovers of pleasure, the late annoying, you know, you're familiar with hedonism.

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So lovers of pleasure rather than phileo, lovers of God.

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Holding or having a form of godliness, although they have denied its power, avoid such men as these.

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For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women, weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

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Just as Yanis and Yambres opposed Moses, and by the way, that's a, those are the traditional names that had been assigned to the

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Egyptian soothsayers, magicians who opposed

14:46

Moses in front of Pharaoh. Just as Yanis and Yambres opposed Moses, so these men also opposed the truth.

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Men of depraved mind rejected in regard to the faith, but they will not make further progress.

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Their folly would be obvious to all, just as Yanis's and Yambres's folly was also. Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance, persecutions, and sufferings such as happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra.

15:13

But persecutions I endured, and out of them all the Lord rescued me. Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

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But evil men and imposters will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. Now, I just stop here for a moment, because when we read through the article, we'll have reason to revisit this.

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You could, I suppose, go back here to verse 10 and go, okay, there's a full break here.

15:44

Now we're moving on to something else, and that would actually be helpful to the post -millennial interpretation,

15:54

I think. But I don't think it's possible, because verse 12, indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

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Is that just in Paul's day? I mean, obviously, what happened to him at Antioch, Iconium, Lystra were historical realities, part of Paul's life, right?

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That's a given. But then from that specific statement that had a historical fulfillment in Paul's experience, you have this general statement, indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

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Now, it seems to me that that is what we would call a gnomic statement.

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It is a general statement of truth that is not limited to the days of Paul. It is a truth that is true as long as this age continues.

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As long as this age continues, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. Think about that.

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What does that mean as far as the nature of the relationship of those who bow the knee to Christ and those who do not?

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And in fact, the next phrase, which is one of the key, I'm sorry, the next verse, which is one of the key verses, verse 13, but evil men and imposters will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

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I would suggest that just the normative reading of the flow of the text would say that just as verse 12 is a general statement that is true throughout the church age, that all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, in the same way, the fact that verse 13 begins,

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I would identify the day, Paneroid day, as an adversative, but it's functioning in a connective fashion to what's before, so it's an adversative in the sense that, okay, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, there's the godly, but other than them, in distinction from them, evil men and imposters will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

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Now, you could ask the question, well, the

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Paneroid, especially when you have Gaiatus here, impostors, that can be sorcerers, enchanters, things like that, it doesn't really fit here, is it possible to see the context here as being within the church, because Timothy's primary encounter with evil men would be within the context of the

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Ecclesia, and so would it be impostors in the sense of the Pseudodelphoi, the false brethren that Paul's already dealt with?

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Possibility. But the point is that just as 12 is giving us a nomic general principle that is true for the church throughout his experience, there's no indication given here, and this is only in your time period, it's going to get better, that's going to stop, don't see anything like that.

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In fact, it seems that evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, and if you look at the term here, it's in the future, so it is talking about future events that Paul is warning about.

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And then, in contrast to them, you, however, continue in the things you have learned, become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them.

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Now we're going into really familiar territory, I don't know how many times we've covered this, but every time we've covered this, it's never been a question as to whether what is enunciated in this text remains relevant for the entirety of the church age.

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I've probably debated this, I've debated this against St. Genes and Matitix and numerous

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Roman Catholic apologists and others, it's never even come up, never even had to deal with it, because it seems so obvious.

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I mean, yes, this is directed specifically to Timothy, you, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, but notice what it says, knowing from whom you have learned them, that from childhood you have known the sacred writings, which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation, through faith, which is in Christ Jesus, all scripture is theanoustos,

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God -breathed, and profitable teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, the man of God may be,

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I know this is a new American standard, I really don't like the translation, you're adequate, it's perfected, equipped for every good work.

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So, we get to the classicus locus, the primary text, in regards to the normative role of scripture in the church.

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Other than Peter's statement about men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit, and Matthew 22, when

21:24

Jesus holds men accountable, have you not read what God spoke to you, saying, can't think of too many texts that are much more important than this.

21:36

So, in that text, boy, talk about getting knocked off your tracks.

21:46

I just happened to look down at Twitter, and Douglas Wilson has just tweeted me.

21:58

Now, is that planned? I mean, seriously, enjoyed being on your show, are ships passing as they say in the night?

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Quick question though, is Arminianism the gospel? Is this a trick question?

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No, Doug, Arminianism is not the gospel. In fact, Arminianism is a sub -biblical gospel, and I'm very thankful that most

22:22

Arminians are very inconsistent on it. What does that have to do with Rome? What does that have to do with indulgences and everything else?

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I'm not sure there. Maybe he's trying to make the connection, I don't know. Maybe he's trying to say that if I'm consistent,

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I should say Arminians aren't saved. Be happy to go there. Happy to go there.

22:43

But don't get me off right now, because that's a different subject. We have some DORs watching today, just waiting.

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You know what a DOR is? Disciple of Rastuni. They're sitting there going, don't respond to that, even though we like Doug Wilson.

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Don't respond to that. Stay on target, stay on target. Oh no, another movie reference.

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Okay. Anyways, thanks Douglas Wilson for completely... Want to talk about golf,

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Ken? No, let's not talk about golf. Let's not do that. I really wouldn't get very far talking about golf at all.

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Anyway, you look really strange when I'm talking to you from in here. You look sort of like, don't talk to me.

23:28

Stop that. Am I making you nervous when I do that? Because you can't talk back, is that the point? You can send me a text message, but I didn't bring my phone with me, so it really won't make any difference.

23:40

Okay, back to where we were. Thank you very much, Douglas Wilson, for completely derailing us. Outside the what?

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10 minute line? What's that? We were outside the first 10 minutes and you got derailed. That's true. Normally it's earlier on.

23:55

Yeah. Okay. All right. Back to the flow of the text. Yeah. Even Red's saying, get back to eschatology.

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The point is that 2 Timothy 3 is flowing directly in this chapter and it has always been considered by everyone to enunciate a normative statement for every age of the church.

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All scripture is theanostos and it's proper teaching throughout the church age.

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For reproof, throughout the church age. For correction, throughout the church age. For training in righteousness, throughout the...

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The only way that the man of God at any time in the church can be thoroughly equipped for every good work is because he possesses the theanostos scriptures, right?

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Well, if that's the case, then it would seem in light of the fact that verses 12 and 13 are likewise giving us gnomic general statements that are true for every generation and will be until Christ returns and you have that final judgment.

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Then it seems to me that there is reason for looking at this and going, it is

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God's intention. And I would tie this, I tie this together with a number of other things. I would tie this together with Jude's statement that we are to epagonizamai.

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We are to agonize for the gospel. I see no biblical basis for saying that there's ever going to be a

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Christian generation that's not going to have to do that. I don't see that ever being the case.

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And why would you have to epagonizamai for the gospel unless there remains active, powerful opposition to the gospel throughout?

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And I think there always will be. Now, you may be a post -millennialist who goes, yes, there always will be. You know, there's different extremes as to how prevalent the kingdom becomes.

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But there's another issue here. And that is some of the stuff I read.

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And again, I'm just being very general here. But some of the stuff I read concerns me because I experienced the kingdom of God last week.

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I experienced the kingdom of God. I sat in Pastor Dennis's home in Durban, South Africa, on the other side of the planet, and rejoiced in the fact that we were one in the spirit of God.

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We confessed the same gospel. We confessed the same truth. And that's the kingdom.

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Christ has built his church. And Christ is reigning all across this world.

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I'm a little concerned sometimes that we might lose the recognition that we need to look at the kingdom in the way that would have made sense, for example, in the first century church.

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Think about this small persecuted minority of people reading the book of Revelation, which announces this eventual complete domination by the

27:32

Lord of that small little group. That every, as the Carmen Christie says, while the first hymns of the

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Christian church, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. Wow. That's awesome.

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But what does that look like? If you looked today outwardly at what's going on in South Africa, little pockets of true believers, lots of false teaching, and from the external perspective.

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Yeah. And yet Christ is active there. He has built his kingdom.

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He there, he is ruling and reigning in the lives of his people in that place.

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And I'm a little concerned that sometimes the idea is the update enough.

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That ain't enough. And we need to have, I think, biblical eyes.

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So anyways, there's my comments on Second Timothy 3. Now let's make application and read the article.

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This is from Postmillennialism Today. I should have put the article up, but here's what happened. I yeah, it's postmillennialismtoday .com.

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That at least was put into Evernote, but I saved it in Evernote and I didn't see any way of getting a

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URL out of it other than that. So you should be able to find it. It's Kenneth Kenneth L. Gentry Jr.'s

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stuff, Postmillennialism and Perilous Times question mark. And as I said, it was posted on Facebook by a member of my own church.

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And that's why I read it. And I went. Yeah, let's stir everybody up and talk about it, because I think it's it's it's important.

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Now, here's what it says. In Second Timothy 3 .1, we find a passage that seems to undercut the postmillennialism optimism for the historical long run.

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There, Paul writes, realize this in the last days, difficult times will come. Kim Riddlebarger sees this passage as a problem for those who hold the prospect of a victorious church.

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Throughout the last days, some will distort the gospel to tickle itching ears and gather themselves and gather followers to themselves.

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He continues in response to postmillennialism. Paul warned us that this lamentable state of affairs is an inevitability for Christ's church.

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End quote. I did not take the time to look those up. I'm assuming that they are accurate quotations, and I would agree.

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I do believe that that will be the state of the church, and I think it is a part of God's purpose for the church.

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In fact, I would say that when the church has adopted the idea that it has conquered the culture is when the church is in the greatest danger.

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Look at Europe. Look at what happens when you think you can pass Christianity on genetically.

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Remember, where is some of the wildest, craziest secular liberalism taking place today?

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In former reformed lands. Warning right there.

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Dispensationalists agree. Wayne House and Thomas Ice argue that the Bible speaks of things progressing from bad to worse, of men deceiving and being deceived.

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Second Timothy 3 13. We look out at our world and see how bad things really are. John Wolvard concurs with the progress of the present age in spite of the dissemination of the truth and the availability of scripture.

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The world undoubtedly will continue to follow the simple description which the apostle Paul gave here. Wiersbe agrees passages like First Timothy 4 and Second Timothy 3 paint a dark picture of the last days.

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Such interpretations as passage, however, and here's Dr. Gentry, are exegetically flawed and anti -contextual.

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Strong words. Strong words. Nothing taught in these verses is contra post -millennial.

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Note the following observations. I go, eh, because one of the tendencies of people in every eschatological camp, but I will say, more so amongst the posties and the dispies, is utilization of language like nothing, everything, you know, just total statements of we've got it all, you've got nothing.

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I really think when it comes to this, especially given that I don't think any of us have a nice easy answer for everything when it comes to exact order of stuff, best to phrase things differently.

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First, Paul's original focus. He is dealing with a particular historical matter in the first century.

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He is speaking of things that Timothy will be facing and enduring. He is not prophesying about the constant long -term unyielding prospects for all of history.

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Likewise, when Paul writes to the church at Corinth complaining that it is actually reported that there is immorality among you, 1

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Corinthians 5 .1, we should not lift it from its context as a universal principle applying to all churches.

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He is writing specifically to them. Now, I'll stop right there for the moment. I don't think that's a meaningful parallel at all, and that's one of the things that caught my attention.

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There was specific historical application to Timothy because Timothy is a leader in the church, but what was the foundation of that?

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Is there ever going to be a time when men will not be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers?

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If we are going to limit this to the first century, then why not limit every sin list to the first century?

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What's more, 1 Corinthians 5 .1 is talking about a specific identifiable church discipline issue in Corinth.

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I mean, Paul didn't do this. He could have, but he could have given us a name.

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There was a specific person, specific incident, and that had historical fulfillment.

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No question about it. But so much of what we have, we've seen in 2

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Timothy 3, that's not what you've got. You have instead general descriptions of the nature of godlessness of those who will try to get into the church, false teachers, those who enter into households and captivate weak women.

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That doesn't happen anymore today. Of course, it happens today. It's happened in every generation. It might happen more in one generation than in another generation or more in one place than in another place, but every minister of the gospel is going to look at this and go, wow, he knew about Mrs.

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Snicklefinger, who's always coming to me with some new heresy that she's cooked up that week.

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Everyone knows that this is the case, and every generation of ministers has been able to grab hold of the promise that, yeah, there are men of depraved mind, reject and regard the faith.

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I mean, sometimes I sit down with people and they study the Bible and they study the faith and do all sorts of stuff like that, and yet rejected in regard to the faith.

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They're men of depraved mind. You can explain it to them with clarity like,

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I don't know what. You can be patient, but it's just like their hard drive is bad sector, man.

35:36

You can't write that it's bad sector. Write truth to this sector. Nope, can't do it.

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That's just the way they are. And was that only true in Timothy's day? No, of course not. I've experienced it, and I've certainly read of many church leaders down through history that likewise have done that.

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And so it seems to me to be very much a different situation, and the parallel First Corinthians 5 .1

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doesn't fit at all. It's not a matter of prophesying about the constant long -term unyielding prospects for all of history.

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It is giving guidance to the church that will be valid in every generation of the church.

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Are we actually going to suggest that Second Timothy 3 is not to be seen as valid guidance for the church in every generation, including verses 16 and 17?

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That's what caught my attention with this, and I went, that's not the kind of exegesis that I would expect on any other subject.

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So point number one, Paul's original focus. Point number two, second, Paul's actual point.

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The text does not demand unrelentingly bad times lie before the church in all of history, and though difficult times,

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Kairoi, will come during the last days, the period between the first and second advents, see chapter 13, which means this was cut and paste from something.

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This does not demand a pessimistic position. The Greek term Paul employs here is Kairoi, which means, which indicates seasons.

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It is the logical error of quantification to read this reference to some seasons of difficulty as if said all, as if it said all seasons will be difficult.

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The difficult times are qualitatively complexioned and specifically appointed seasons.

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That's the quote. Post -millennialists are well aware of the seasons of perilous times that beset the church under the

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Roman Empire and at other times. If I'm understanding this, and since I didn't have chapter 13, maybe

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I'm not, but if I'm understanding this, the idea is that what's being described in verse 13, specifically, but evil men, imposters, because, no, verse 1,

38:22

I guess we'll make a differentiation there. Difficult times will come is referring to specific seasons primarily, evidently, under the

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Roman Empire and at other times. I don't know what those other times are.

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Does it follow that when you're not in a difficult season, that the rest of what it says becomes irrelevant to the minister in the church?

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So is it only during difficult seasons? Because there's no way you can escape the fact that it's

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Gar. So the Gar is connecting verse 2 to verse 1.

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So the reason that there will be difficult times is because men will be lovers of self.

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So I'd like to know when during the history of the church have men not been lovers of self?

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When have men not been lovers of money? Or are we saying that this is only within the church?

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Now, of course, brutal, without self -control, what would the man of God have to do with people like that if this was only in the church?

39:45

Discipline them, put them out. Seems obvious to me that this is a general description of a sinful society in which the church exists and therefore is influenced by what's going on in that context just as we see it today.

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I mean, one of the biggest problems today is when the church does not trust the gospel and the spirit to bring people in and change them radically, but tries to woo them in without changing them and challenging their very man -centered perspectives, which is what all of this is all about.

40:24

So if this is... So are there only seasons where there are those who enter into households, captivate weak women, that only happens once a while, primarily under the

40:36

Roman Empire? Are there going to be people only at certain times that are always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, and at other times everyone's able to do that?

40:49

That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. And again, I really see verses 12 and 13 as standing against this.

41:02

All who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. Is that only during certain seasons, or is that not the case as long as we're in this age before the age to come?

41:15

I would say in the age to come, that will no longer be true. But in this age, and as we at every point of this age, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

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And if 12 is true all the way through, then it would seem to me that the church will always be dealing with evil men and impostors, deceiving and being deceived.

41:43

And we're dealing with that all over the place right now, are we not? In fact,

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I think you could argue in some ways that we're dealing with more of it now than we've ever dealt with before because of the availability of communication.

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False teachers have found television, radio, and the internet to be the greatest boon to their business ever.

42:08

That doesn't seem to have diminished, it seems to have increased. Now, you do not judge eschatological perspectives on the basis of your current knowledge of world affairs.

42:21

So when things are really bad, post -millennialism seems to wane some, and of course the pre -millennials are all, whoo -hoo, rapture coming real soon, and let's find out what 666 means, or is it 616, or is it...

42:41

You know there's one manuscript that says 665, I'm sort of hoping that's it. Because then everyone's guess will have just been blown right out the door.

42:50

It's a neighborhood, you know. Oh, it is, it's very clearly. It's that would be 616A.

42:58

Right, right. Or second floor or something. Something like that. But the postman knows.

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It's got the beast, it's right there. He knows which door to go to. It's the fire coming out and stuff like that. But anyway, thank you for...

43:12

Doug Wilson said anything more to me? No, Doug Wilson hasn't said anything more to me. So I really struggle with this idea that this is just seasons.

43:26

It does not, that does not flow from the reading of the text to me. Okay. Third, Paul's misunderstood nature.

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We're almost done, there's only four points. Paul's misunderstood nature. This passage does not teach historical decline accelerating in history.

43:44

Citing 2 Timothy 3 .13 in the debate leaves the unwarranted impression that things shall irrevocably become worse and worse in history.

43:54

But the verse actually says evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. Paul is speaking of specific evil men becoming ethically worse, not more and more evil men becoming increasingly dominant.

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He is speaking of their progressive personal generation, that is the progressive anti -sanctification of evil men.

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Paul says absolutely nothing about a predestined increase in the number and power of such evil men.

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Okay. So if, again, I'm just trying to follow what it's saying.

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If the understanding of 2 Timothy 3 .13 is that certain evil men in the first century and certain impostors in the first century proceeded from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived, but they're now gone, then you no longer have a contrast to Timothy.

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You no longer have a contrast for any of the rest of us that we are supposed to contrast ourselves to the evil men around us.

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And the real problem is, does that also then mean that in verse 12 that that was only true in the first century?

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That all who in the first century desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, but that won't be the case in the second century.

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Well, it was the case. Well, it wasn't the third. Okay. It still is all the way to today, right?

45:28

I mean, all over the world, every generation has. It's because of the clash of those who've bowed the knee in lordship to Christ and those who've not.

45:39

That'll always be true. The first 12 is always true. What's the, what's the, the contextual clue that don't worry about verse 13.

45:51

That's already fulfilled. That's not a natural exegesis.

45:58

That's not a natural exegesis to me.

46:04

Fourth, Paul's post millennial balance. He balances his teaching with a note of optimism as a good post millennialist.

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Paul clearly informs Timothy, these evil men will not make further progress. Their folly will be obvious to all.

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Since God places limits on those evil doers, Paul speaks as a man who expects victory. How different from the widespread pessimistic conception of the progressive limitless power of evil in our day.

46:35

Paul conceives the ultimate long -term impotence of evil in history. Well, I suppose if you're responding primarily to certain forms of dispensational pre -millennialism, okay, but that doesn't say anything to me and it doesn't have anything to do with my objections because I believe that the kingdom of God has been victorious.

46:58

That's why it exists everywhere I go. That's why I've seen so many hearts of stone replaced with hearts of flesh.

47:07

That's why I can go to places where I can't even speak their language and yet we have communion with one another.

47:13

That's victory. And yes, the promise is that the gospel will abide to every generation.

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He will not allow his truth to be stolen from this world. And so there are limits placed upon evil men and what they can do to the church.

47:30

Believe all that doesn't change the reality that the situation that the church will be facing will always be one of conflict warfare.

47:41

And I don't see, I don't see how you can read second

47:47

Timothy three and come to the conclusion. Well, what this means is that eventually we will predominate numerically.

47:57

I don't see it's even discussing any of that to be honest with you, but what it does seem to indicate is that each generation is going to face the same categories of difficulty and necessity for, for watchfulness.

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No matter where the ministry is taking place, no matter what the church is and what the context is, there's always going to be this recognition that there are going to be evil men and imposters and they are going to, there's going to be sheep stealing.

48:35

Paul, Paul did prophesy on this. Look at Acts chapter 20. After, after my departure, evil wolves will come in.

48:41

That happened then. Is that all it's talking about? Was that only relevant to the initial generation post apostolic or is it not the necessity for every shepherd to recognize that there are going to be wolves that are going to seek to enter in and steal sheep?

49:03

It seems to me to be the regular experience of the church throughout all ages, all the way.

49:13

And this is again, it seems to me that when you look at Jesus' teaching on this age and the age to come, it's not this age, then a mini age, and then three and a half years of a mini age and three and a half years, another mini age.

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No, this age, boom, age to come. This is what's going on here.

49:33

Conflict, wheat and tares, sons of kingdom, sons of light, sons of darkness, battle, warfare, age to come.

49:43

They're not there anymore. There aren't any more tares. It's, it's different.

49:51

It's changed. Radical. That's what I see here. To use the language of the article, seems to me,

50:02

Paul was not a post -millennial, at least not. That's not what flows here. Seems to be following categories that I see as an amillennial.

50:13

But I'm not going to do the Paul was an amillennial thing because that's so blessedly anachronistic that I'm afraid my microphones would melt and my

50:22

MacBooks would explode. So, so you won't go there. So there's, there's the article and it was nice and short and it allowed me to read it and to go,

50:38

I think we need to, especially in this area, have a fair amount of eschatological humility.

50:46

Within the fellowship of our church, we have posties and I think there might be a few historical premills hiding in the shadows.

51:01

You're generally not going to get dispensational premillennialism in a

51:06

Reformed Baptist church. There are, I mean, at least historic dispensationalism.

51:15

There's also, I mean, who knows what dispensationalism means today? There's 47 ,000 different variants of it now.

51:23

But especially the concept of different ways of salvation, things like that, going back to the olden days, just doesn't work given that the 1689

51:33

London Baptist confession is clearly covenantal, clearly affirms covenant of, of grace.

51:39

And therefore it doesn't work too well along those lines. I would say that amillennialism is sort of the default

51:47

Reformed position, at least historically. I mean, there's been lots of good posties. I mean, the Puritans were posties primarily.

51:54

But I think we have the majority there, as if that's relevant. I mean, you don't determine the truthfulness of those things by them.

52:02

So there's some thoughts. Now I could tell just by mentioning that I was going to even address this, that I'm probably going to rue having done so, even though I think

52:17

I was completely fair. I based my comments on the text and I put it out there, got all sorts of respect for Ken Gentry.

52:29

I'm not saying the guy, avoid that man. I don't have to do that stuff. I could just tell by even some of the comments on Facebook, why don't you have him on?

52:40

Look, everything's got to be a debate. If you're going to talk about this, then you need to go all the way and you need to do a series on this.

52:49

And I just put my head in my hands and go, where's the balance?

52:56

Where's the balance? If your post -millennialism is not strong enough to allow you to hear anybody even express a different perspective without getting out the knives and the long swords,

53:14

I question how mature it is. Because I can listen to post mills all the time.

53:20

I can go to conferences where they're speaking and I don't break out in hives. And in fact, honestly, well, okay,

53:28

Rich does, but in fact, I'll be honest with you. I'm going to make an observation and people get all upset, but it's my observation.

53:36

All millers tend to be the calmest when it comes to eschatological discussion.

53:42

We do. Doesn't mean there aren't wild eyed all millers, but they're pretty rare.

53:49

But man, I mean, I've sat in churches where I, in the pew, I remember it was in Glendale somewhere, downtown

53:57

Glendale years ago. I was with Mike. So we're talking 1987 -ish, six, five, somewhere in there.

54:06

Right in the pew, what we believe. There's a little thing in the

54:12

Trinity, a little thing on salvation by grace, three pages on pre -millennialism and and the rapture and, and stuff like that.

54:20

And I mean, you had to sign on the dotted line if you're going to be a part of that church, you know,

54:27

I mean, just wow. And you know what? There's some posties that there's some of you young guys.

54:39

Let me just ask you a question. Are you nearly as excited about the perfection of the work of Christ and the atonement, the doctrine of justification as you are the most recent article by Gary DeMar?

54:55

Just wondering, just wondering, because my Facebook feed, wow, wow.

55:05

And to be honest with you, when I'm sitting in a mosque, Muslims don't care too much about that stuff. They, they, they do care about, you know, what it means to be made right with God.

55:15

I'm not saying that this discussion is not important. I just had the discussion sort of just on one, I just,

55:20

I just wanted to look at one text of scripture and there's going to be a now you're going to have to have this person.

55:27

No, I'm not. There's one person determines what happens on this program and it's me.

55:32

And I answer to the Lord about that and nobody else. Okay.

55:38

I'm, I just can put my foot down there. There are all sorts of things going on in this world.

55:44

And I recognize that how we respond to some of it has a lot to do with how we've concluded about subjects like this.

55:52

I recognize that it's, it's not that it's unimportant. I'm just saying, it's not that important to me in the sense that I'm going to make it some central aspect of what

56:02

I do. There are only certain things that I can do well. There's only a certain number of things I can do well, and I'm pretty well maxed out at the moment.

56:11

And, um, but at the same time, when I read this, I thought, you know, I would just like to look at second

56:19

Timothy three and just ask some questions. And if that helps somebody great, wonderful.

56:26

Doesn't well, what can I say? So there you go. Uh, I hope that, um, that will not start some war.

56:35

Um, just looking very quickly at, uh, hasn't been too much stuff here.

56:45

Um, someone said four blood moons means absolutely nothing.

56:52

Dr. Oakley, 1699 ever completes a show without wandering off topic. It is a sure sign. The end is near.

57:00

So the only wander off topic was so I could have ushered in the millennium.

57:05

If Doug Wilson hadn't tweeted me, is that how I knew Doug Wilson is the reason it didn't happen.

57:11

He was predestined. Oh, have we ever added up Doug Wilson's name? Now there's a thought.

57:19

Would you use hexadecimal or I yeah. Yeah. Hexadecimal.

57:24

Hexadecimal. Yeah. They didn't know about hexadecimal back then. Well, that's how computer works. If you use hexadecimal and then divided by can't remember the number you divided by, and then you come up with six, six, six.

57:34

No, no, no, no, no, no. I'm textually. We have a range now, six, six, six, six, six, five or six, one, six.

57:44

And in fact, I would say anything between six, six, six and six, one, six. That's you did miss

57:49

Mutato's comment on that. That's six, six, five is six, six, six.

57:55

Mark down on sale on sale. Actually, my my grandma,

58:01

I think, lived at an address one half because she was in the little house in the back.

58:06

Oh, yeah. So six, six, five could be the guy in the back. That's true. Yeah. Something like that. I think

58:12

I think Ken's saying to her that we've pretty much run out of meaningful stuff to say for today.

58:18

This is what we do. Hey, we jumped right into it right at the beginning. And we only have about.

58:25

Yeah, we only have about 48 minutes worth of concentration during a regular show. So we're making it up toward the end.

58:31

That's right. Okay. Anyway. All right. Uh, okay.

58:38

Well, not my daughter. What are you starting? Don't start yet. It's am

58:44

I am I that close? No, stop that. Summer actually said something. Concern more about Christ and end times question.

58:51

Yes, I've asked the same thing and let it my Facebook feed, too. Yes. Uh, can you at least tell me what you think the inconsistent interpretive method issue was that you had pre on Mill?

59:05

Yeah, I was. I was interpreting texts that were prophetic.

59:18

In ways that I shouldn't have been. And I especially looking at the book,

59:25

Revelation. Without first asking the question that I asked of everything else.

59:32

And that is, what did it mean to the people to whom it was first written? If it didn't have any meaning to them, I've probably misinterpreted it.

59:39

I'd say I was the main one. The main thing that that was one of the main things. You just kind of hope that these conversations don't get to a point to where you just simply decide if we say anything else, it's going to be the end times.

59:52

Yeah, right now it is the end times right now. Yeah, it is the end of time right now because programs over.

59:59

But hopefully that was helpful. Thanks for watching. We'll be back next week. Regular schedule heading for New Jersey and New York debate with Shadid Lewis.

01:00:08

Hope you'll come out and attend that new Hyde Park Baptist Church. We posted everything on the

01:00:14

Google calendar and on the blog yesterday. So those who've been asking, it's there. But next week, regular schedule.