The Laborers' Podcast- The Holy Spirit part 3

Welcome to The Laborer's Podcast. We're so thankful that you joined us again. Tonight we are going to continue our discussion on pneumatology, the study of the work and person of the

Holy Spirit. We hope you will stick with us and join us for the conversation. Welcome again to The Laborer's Podcast.

Thank you so much for joining us. If you have a critique, if you have a question, we're totally open to that.

We're looking forward to hearing from you. The comment line is open. Just send us a comment, question, critique.

If you have a prayer request, we'd love to pray for you as well. Tonight we're going to continue our discussion on the

Holy Spirit. This is part three, which is amazing and I'm looking forward to it. I'm joined by Big John, Tyler, Claude, and Andy.

How are you guys doing tonight? Good. In the old joke that it would take a

Reformed preacher eight years to preach through Titus. Hey, hey listen,

I've been, we've been in Luke at the church since October 2019 and we we are in chapter 19 right now, halfway through.

Do it Claude, preach brother. Let's continue.

We had a great conversation. We didn't get very far. I mean, we stuck there on that one topic of the

Holy Spirit last week, but it ended up being a good conversation. If you didn't, if you didn't listen or watch last week's conversation,

I would encourage you to go back and listen to it because we, it seemed like at the beginning we, some of us started at different starting points, different understandings, but as we had our conversation,

I could see it and I hope you could see it as well. It seemed like the closer and closer we got together as we continue that conversation, we begin to harmonize our different understandings into one.

I thought it was a beautiful thing. So if y 'all are ready, we'll jump into the podcast guide and continue our conversation on the

Holy Spirit. So we're starting in to more of the nitty -gritty, the character, the application, things that apply to us.

So from Scripture, how the Holy Spirit, let's see, how do we understand the

Holy Spirit to be God and a member of the Trinity? And this is a big one, and I understand that nobody, and I think all of you would agree with me, that nobody can define and give an accurate analogy.

There's none out there that can totally, you know, describe what the

Trinity is, but how do we understand that the

Holy Spirit is God from Scripture and a part of the Trinity? Go ahead, Big John. So the way

I remember Nabeel Qureshi saying one time that it was easy to explain the

Trinity as God one in being, three in persons, and each person of the

Trinity being equally God in all aspects and all attributes that makes God who

God is. And when John 1 and 1, in the beginning was the Word and the

Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God and all things came into being through Him and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Then when you go back to Genesis 1 and 1, you see in the beginning

God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was formless and void, darkness was over the surface of the waters, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

Your first verse of the first chapter of two different books in the same exact,

I suppose you'd say language is being used, but one that I think sometimes gets overlooked is when you look at Hebrews 1, right?

Everybody goes to Hebrews 1 for Christology in there and we spend a lot of time in the book of Hebrews on our on our

Christology lesson because of how much the writer of Hebrews hearkens to who

Jesus is and as the person of God as we call the second person of Trinity, God the

Son. God spoke long ago to the fathers and the prophets in many portions in many ways as these last days spoken to us to a son.

Now how is it that God spoke to the fathers in the Old Testament? By which way?

Mostly by the way He still speaks to us today, right? Through the Word. So in a lot of ways the vehicle of communication that God used in the

Old Testament is the same way that that God speaks to us today and that's by way of the

Holy Spirit. So you can't, maybe you can't, I can't describe the

Trinity in a perfect, you know, English language or a perfect example of it, but I see

God working hand -in -hand through all three persons cohesively from the very beginning all the way to the end.

If if the Holy Spirit is the mechanism by or is if the Holy Spirit is the personhood of God that that is used to communicate to man more often throughout history and if we're honest four gospel accounts and a few other books where you see

Jesus's direct dialogue with man, the bulk of our relationship with God the Father has been through the personal work of the

Holy Spirit. Amen. Either by drawing or through direct correction or as some as it says in the

New Testament whenever He intercedes to us in prayer. Yeah. And groanings and utterings that we don't understand.

I think that's pretty amazing. I mean yeah that was that was something I think that I'm not really thought about too much and I'm sure there was many others who haven't thought about that too much where you brought some continuity which is a you know a big topic that we talked about last week but you brought some continuity in the work of the

Holy Spirit between the Old Testament, New Testament, Old Covenant, New Covenant that I really haven't thought about before.

I think that was really good information. I appreciate too. Sorry about jumping in here but when when

I appreciate the fact that that Big John used the person the word person of the the

Holy Spirit the third person of the Trinity in MacArthur's systematic theology.

Have y 'all ever looked at that or heard of that? It's called the doctrine. I haven't looked at it.

It is great but in it concerning the Holy Spirit he wrote this concerning the personhood of the

Holy Spirit. He said personhood is not measured by physical elements such as body parts, flesh, and blood, and bones.

Rather it's determined by the possession of three basic characteristics which are intellect being one, will being two, and affections being number three.

I think the Holy Spirit when we talk about the person in the work of the

Holy Spirit a lot of times the Holy Spirit in a lot of places and in a lot of circles gets depersonalized to an impersonal force, like Star Wars, the force.

That is not the Holy Spirit. He is the third person of the Godhead. He has intellect.

He has a will. He has emotions and affections. I mean just to name a few here concerning his intellect.

He counsels, right? He imparts wisdom. This is the intellectual third person of the

Godhead Trinity. He inspired Scripture. That's what John was telling us about.

He inspired Scripture. He intercedes for us. He possesses a mind.

Romans Paul states, you know, who knows the mind of the Lord, right? Or in Corinthians concerning his will.

He certainly convicts sinners, right? As a matter of fact, in John's gospel when the disciples were fretting because Jesus was saying,

I'm gonna go to the cross. I'm gonna suffer. I'm gonna die. But on the third day I'm gonna rise again.

They were freaking out. He said, look, it is, this is hillbilly. The hillbilly, the

HB version, okay? He said, y 'all don't fret. Y 'all don't worry because it's necessary that I'm going away.

If I do not go away, the comforter will not come. The spirit, the paraclete, the one who comes alongside.

That's what that word means. If I do not go away, the comforter will not come. But if I go away, he will come.

And he will convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment, right? He will, he does this.

This is what the Holy Spirit does. This is why it's not, he's not an impersonal force to be referred to as an it.

He directs us. He, matter of fact, he gives spiritual gifts. And he does this at his own discretion.

Not upon our wants or our wishes, but he does as he pleases in heaven and earth.

The Holy Spirit is responsible for our regeneration. We can, if you can say today,

I have been born again, it is because the Holy Spirit has regenerated our hearts and our minds.

And he has made us new creatures. And lastly, concerning the Holy Spirit and personhood, is emotion.

We're taught in the scriptures, and it's in the guide here that you've got for us, Rob. He experiences joy.

He rejoices. He can be insulted. He grieves over sin.

And he loves, just to name a few of those things. So we see in the scripture that the person and the work of the

Holy Spirit and the person and the work of the Holy Spirit, of the

Holy Spirit being the third member of the Godhead, what's known as the

Trinity. Because we're all Trinitarian, right?

We believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. Because when you negate the doctrine of the

Trinity, I believe we are, I wouldn't say we'll never be able to take away from the glory of God, but we mask a part of the glory of God when we fail to attribute glory, honor, and praise to the person and the work of the

Holy Spirit. That's right. That's right. I'm glad you brought up the word paraclete.

Because when I was looking into that word and learning about what it means, you hear the word paralegal.

You know, we get the concept of paralegal, someone who comes alongside you. And then like para -church ministry.

You know, we're a para -church ministry, somebody, a body who wants to come alongside and minister and help and be a help to the local church.

You know, God's established means of doing things, but we want to come alongside and edify and help.

But then if you think about the Holy Spirit, the paraclete, the Holy Spirit's work inside of us and His role of pointing to Christ and emanating the tiny

Christ, you know, not only is He coming alongside us, but if He's working within us to be more like Christ, to be

God -glorifying, then He's going to be working in us to also come alongside other people.

And to me, a good way to evaluate whether we are yielding to the Holy Spirit, if the

Holy Spirit is leading me to come alongside somebody else and I'm coming along somebody else and I'm pointing them to Christ, then

I'm yielding to the Holy Spirit. I'm letting Him lead. But if I'm coming along somebody else and I fail to point them to Christ in whatever circumstance they're going through, then, you know,

I'm drifting away from the work of the Holy Spirit. And so I think there's so much to that word paraclete and what we can learn.

And I appreciate you bringing it up. And you brought up the word grief. One thing that we can do, the

Scripture says, is grieve the Holy Spirit. Tyler, you want to start us off on that one? Sorry, what was the question?

Grieving the Holy Spirit. Yeah. Okay. I think that's the one question

I did not look into this week. So. Somebody else, if you want to.

I'm sorry. That's okay. Yeah, I can jump on that one. When we sin, we see demonstrated and spoken of in the

New Testament, particularly, that the Holy Spirit, and this is what big

John and Claude have already been referring to with Him being a person, He experiences grief in a manner appropriate to His deity.

So think of when we properly grieve and mourn over our sin.

And when we do that, we are demonstrating, as Rob said, a yielding to the

Spirit and a submission to the deity of the Spirit in doing that. But imagine

God Himself grieving over our sin, comparative to our weakness to grieve over sin in the way the

Spirit does. And so when we talk about grieving the Holy Spirit, one of the things that Dr.

White points out in his book, The Forgotten Trinity, he talks about when you look at the subject of atonement, which is not the subject we're dealing with tonight, but you'll see

Trinitarian, and this is a phrase I picked up from Dr. White specifically, Trinitarian harmony in the atonement.

By re -electing Son, making atonement, Spirit regenerating and sealing, and all three persons of the

Trinity having their operations and their roles. Well, there's also

Trinitarian harmony in the total redemptive plan of God, but in their ongoing roles in the sense of the

Spirit's role, kind of picking up on what we talked about last week in the New Covenant, is to promote

Christ, point others to Christ, regenerate people based on the cross of Christ.

All these things that the Spirit does in originating our

Christian life and then helping us live our Christian life, all is based in to be pointing to the

Son of God, Jesus Christ. So one of the ways we grieve the

Spirit is if we promote self, if we are prideful, if we seek to take glory from God, because the

Spirit in a perfect way, in a way that our finite minds can't, let's be honest, really can't fully comprehend, promotes

Christ, the second person of the Trinity, in perfection. Whereas we err and are weak and sometimes promote ourselves, the

Holy Spirit is incapable of doing that. So imagine, and one of the things we talk about in sports, you're

Michael Jordans of the world, and this is gonna be kind of, sort of, not a great comparison, but it sort of can help you understand things.

Michael Jordan and them always, if they ever become a coach or whatever, they look at these players and like, why can't you do that?

I could do that. Why can't you do that? They're so great at what they do, they can't imagine anybody not doing it like they do.

Now this is an apples -to -apples comparison because Michael Jordan isn't TV, he's not the one that hovered over the

Spirit of the Lord. But to a degree, our finite minds can understand, the

Spirit is not me. The Spirit, while I can demonstrate in this sinful flesh,

I can still, through the power of the Spirit, demonstrate mourning over sin, I can't do it like the

Holy Spirit can. And when I try to put myself ahead of Christ, I don't understand what the way he grieves like I do, or can do.

So we need to be careful and mindful that we can, the biggest way we grieve the Spirit is when we take glory from God.

And I mean, Ephesians, in Ephesians 2, just to put some more scripture on this,

Ephesians... Gonna wet that whistle.

Oh my goodness. All right, so I apologize.

Ephesians 4, 17, beginning there, and actually reading down to verse 32, the

Apostle Paul writing to the church at Ephesus, and this is what he states. Now this I say in testifying the

Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do in the futility of their minds.

They are darkened in understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their heart.

They become callous and given themselves up to sensuality, greedy practice, to every kind of impurity, but that is not the way you learned

Christ. So he's setting a contrast here. He said, assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him as the truth is in Jesus.

And this is what they were taught, to put off your old self. That's what we're taught. Put off our old selves, which belong to our former manner of life, and which was corrupted through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new man, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members of one another.

Be angry and do not sin. Do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil.

Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need.

Let no corrupt talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

And then he said this, and do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, whom you were sealed until the day of redemption.

Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and malice, and slander be put away from you with every...

be put away from you with all malice. Be kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake also has forgiven you.

So he sets that contrast up, and then in verse 30 states, so if you do these things, you are grieving the

Holy Spirit. Now we all here are somebody's kids, right?

So just generally speaking, we're all somebody's kids, and we've all done things that have grieved our parents, particularly when we're little kids, right?

Tyler, did you ever do anything you think that grieved your mom and dad? I've got a 28 -year -old son, and I can guarantee you he's done plenty to grieve his mother and I.

Not necessarily even in a, you know, in a bad... I'm not casting a bad light. I'm just saying because we're born sinners, we're shaped in iniquity.

We don't have to be taught how to sin, and we always bring strife and grief, but what the relationship of the relationship that we have to Christ, or from God the

Father in Christ, through the Holy Spirit, Christ brings reconciliation to that.

And so when we sin against the Lord, and let there be no miscommunication here, when we sin, bottom line, we sin against the

Lord. That is who our sin is against, ultimately. Our sin is against the

Lord. And what Paul is teaching the Ephesians, and what we are taught through the inspiration and the preservation of the text, is this, that when we sin, we actually literally grieve the person of the

Holy Spirit of God. That's what it says, and it's going contrary to what

God intended for us to do. I want to add something to that, if I can.

Oh yeah. So just to... it's not going to add a bit to it.

I don't think it will. So God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, all being

God, and all being one, it's reasonable for me to think that their personalities, as well as their temperament, is the same.

That the thoughts and intentions of the Holy Ghost are not going to be any different than the thoughts and intentions of God the

Son, and thoughts and intentions of God the Father. So in Genesis 6, and I'm going to just read a snippet here, but it started in 5, and the

Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of the heart were only on evil continually.

And the Lord was sorry that he had made man on earth, and he was grieved in his heart. So it's the wickedness that man does that grieved

God the Father in the beginning. We have no reason to think that it would be anything other than that in a

New Testament church. Just whenever man, especially those who have been redeemed, do something wicked, how much more so would it grieve

God? Because he died for you. He put it all out there for you, and you've taken the grace

God has given you as an occasion for sin. And I imagine that that would exponentially grieve

God even more. And especially because, and I don't remember if we talked about it so much last week, and I wasn't here for the first one, but as a church, the

Lord lives within us. His Holy Spirit dwells within us. So he's uniquely personal whenever the sin that someone does who's born again involves

God personally. So I think that we ought to not just read through that very carelessly.

We ought to imagine what, as much as I love my children, if I were to give my life for them, and I would in a moment's notice, to think that they would treat that as something everyday, ordinary, common, without honoring that sacrifice.

Moving on, it would frustrate me if I was able to know about it. So you know,

God is a person with emotions and with feelings. Granted he's not subject to the same frailties of our emotions as we are, to be driven by our emotions as we are, but at the same time

I see Jesus in the New Testament getting frustrated with people who don't believe. How long, how long must

I endure this faithless and untoward generation? How I long to gather you under my under my wings as a hen does, but you won't let me.

Yeah, yeah. Well and just put two or two together of things that we talked about.

Before we went on to the podcast, Andy was talking about some of the things that we see on the internet, you know, as far as Twitter goes or Facebook, and we see an interaction between professing

Christians, whether they are or they aren't is not my call, but professing

Christians and we see an interaction that there is online between one another, and sometimes it's very ungracious, and combining that with what

Claude was reading in Ephesians, you know, it seems that if we're not interacting with one another in a fruit of the

Spirit way, then we're not honoring Christ and we're grieving the Holy Spirit, and so that,

I mean, that should be calls for reflection and how we interact with one another in person and online.

Exactly. I think that was a good lesson. What about quenching the Holy Spirit? And I was just thinking about how there's an abuse of the verse used widely today, you know, don't touch

God's anointed. I think there's an abuse of that verse, and there may be an abuse of this idea of quenching the

Holy Spirit too out there, but what is that? Is that Thessalonians?

Yeah, I think Thessalonians 5? 519 maybe? Do you want to take that,

Tyler? I have a quote I'd like to share in reference to this. I'll just share the quote, and then

I'll let others give their commentary on what they want to say. I just, this is Oswald Chambers' quote.

He says, and it's about three sentences, so it'd take just a minute here to get through. Oswald Chambers said, and this is in reference to quenching the

Spirit, and your spiritual life will be impaired.

And the one thing I'll say, I take this quote to say, we need to understand quenching the

Spirit primarily through what the Spirit does. If you're not attentive to the

Spirit of God speaking to you through divine scripture, you can quench the

Spirit's voice in your life to where you will be the one in control, not the

Spirit, and that's a very dangerous place to be. That's the truth. Can you define quench?

Well, I've got the passage right here. It is 1 Thessalonians 5 19.

Just to back up a verse for some context, always be joyful, pray regularly, in everything give thanks, for this is what

God wants from you, who are united with Christ Jesus. Don't quench the Spirit, don't despise inspired messages, but do test everything.

Hold on to what is good, but keep away from every form of evil. I think in the context of that statement, don't quench the

Spirit, don't despise inspired messages, I think we're talking about, with the books of Thessalonians, we're talking about a gathering of Christians that are wrestling through how they relate to the world after the cross.

Is the millennial kingdom coming? Is Christ coming back soon? What is the way forward now?

And so you had a lot of alarmism that the end times are coming, this is it, we're in the tribulation, a lot of what we see now actually, a little difference, but they were trying to wrestle through what do we do now?

And Paul is addressing that very directly here, be joyful, pray regularly, in everything give thanks, this is your task here, this is what we do now.

In the same way that Jeremiah said you're gonna serve Babylon 70 years, so build houses, plant things, take wives, pray for Babylon, grow where you're planted, do these things.

And so we get to don't quench the Spirit, and it's put in direct parallel with don't despise inspired messages, and so I think he's referring to what we would call prophecy, with people who claim to speak for God, like the

Old Testament prophets, and I think he's saying don't just automatically write that off as false, but examine it.

So kind of like test it too? Yes, and I know we're getting into that in a moment, but I think what he means by quenching the

Spirit ties directly into what we mean by testing the Spirit, that there's a balance here that we strike of testing things, and also not just writing everything off that, no, the

Spirit doesn't do that. Maybe someone can explain it better than I can. I want to say one quick word on the

English word prophecy. We so badly interpret Scripture in light of what we understand

English words to mean in certain contexts, so a lot of times people will take where something translated the word prophecy in English and think they're talking about predicting the future, all these different things.

The word, I don't know what it is off the top of my head, I didn't look it up, but the original word that's typically, and I don't know this in all cases, but typically it's translated prophecy, can mean predicting the future as Jeremiah and certain

Old Testament prophets did, but it just simply means forth telling. It's essentially preaching, speaking forth.

I'm forth telling. I'm prophesying. I'm speaking forth to you that this is what God has said.

So while the definition of the original word can include situations where predicting of future events could have taken place,

I'm of the belief that that particular function doesn't exist today because we have the completed canon of Scripture.

So forth telling and prophecy, especially in the context he's talking about, don't despise inspired prophecies, messages, you know, this understanding of not quenching the

Spirit. Well, one of the ways we could do that is by not being in submission to our leaders and our local body and allowing them to exercise their gift of teaching over us, and one of the biggest joys of a pastor's heart is to see the people that he's been instructed to care for actually learning from the message and walking in the

Lord's will for their life. So I think a lot of that, you see the Spirit's power not being quenched in those local bodies where Scripture has its proper place.

I appreciate what you did there, Tyler, because I love Paul teaching balance here.

I love seeing him teach balance. Like you were reading, he says, do not quench the

Holy Spirit, do not despise prophetic utterance. The Holy Spirit is speaking.

Don't quench it. You know, he's speaking, but then he's like, okay, but hold on, but examine everything carefully.

So he's like, don't quench the Holy Spirit because he's speaking, but then make sure that you examine everything because not everything is the

Holy Spirit. I love that balance that Paul's teaching here. I had to look a word up right quick because I know y 'all know some

Greek and you should know that I do not know much Greek. One of the things

I was thinking about when Tyler was talking, so in Acts chapter 2, a very, very brief synopsis of what happens whenever the

Holy Spirit enters the room, it says everybody was cloven tongues of fire set on every one of them, right?

And then the Holy Spirit is likened and his work is likened to a fire in this instance.

And I think about when James refers to the tongue later on as kindling a flame, and if it's not bridled, then it can really do a lot of damage just like a flame can do, right?

Now the conversation Paul's using here in Thessalonians is about your speech, right?

Your speech being one that is not grieving the

Holy Spirit, but with the thought of quenching, I think about putting a fire out. So you won't want to undo this fire that the

Lord has set ablaze on his church that's supposed to be spreading by using the flesh and blood and letting your tongue start a fire that would be, let's just use strange fire, a counterproductive flame.

So in a lot of ways when you think about quenching, I think about let's not put that, as to say that we could stop

God, but you understand what I'm saying, let's not do anything. Don't throw a blanket on the fire. Yes, don't put that out.

Don't quench it. Now whenever the Lord shows up in the upper room, he shows up to a people who've spent their time fasting and praying in one accord, right?

Seeking the will of the Lord to be done on this earth. We're to be a praying people. We're to be a people continually in this communion with God.

Paul says to pray without ceasing. The entire avenue, this one -on -one relationship we're to have with God is supposed to be unique in that way that God actually wants us to have this relationship with him, and it should be something that burns up inside of us.

The Prophet Jeremiah, I believe it was, whenever he said he didn't want to preach, he didn't want to do this thing, and whenever he shut up, it was like a fire that got shut up in his bones.

This is a pretty consistent theme, and I think that if you were to do something that is clearly against the will of God, because I believe he'll let you do some things that are against his will, that you can stop that work that he's doing in your life by disobedience or by doing anything.

And one of them is, I think, that quenches the spirit more than anything, especially in a ministry or in a service, is when a man takes the glory and the light off of Christ and begins to highlight himself or the ministry that he's a part of.

And in doing so, I've been in rooms before where a real hot prayer service has spilled over into maybe two or three nights of spontaneous revival, and then it seems like you'll start to hear sideways chatter on the way out the door about what all we've done, and then it feels like all the air just leaves the room.

It's like that. Man, I wish you fellas would realize that if you just keep your mouth shut, people will look at you and think you're dumb, but if you open your mouth, you're just removed out, and now they know you're dumb.

That's the truth, y 'all. That's the truth, y 'all. Does everybody see where I'm coming from when

I say that? Oh yeah, I do. You're looking at it from a very practical standpoint.

I'm a machinist, so when you heat treat, you quench, and you get something real hot, and whenever you flame harden it, you quench it, you put water on it, or oil, if it's oil -hardenable steel or something like that.

And I think, too, I agree with what you said there, and I think, too, across the spectrum of Scripture, again, when we like the logical order that we're looking at it— grieving the

Holy Spirit, quenching the Holy Spirit, testing the Holy Spirit—we see all that just in that Thessalonians passage, and in the other passage we saw grieve not the

Holy Spirit, right? It's not necessarily that, well, it's not necessarily that we actually put out the fire of God or stop the work of God, but that we,

I would say, that we remove, in a sense, ourselves from the blessing of enjoying the

Spirit of God. We put water on our own woodpile, and we stop the flame from catching on us.

That's right, and what's the direct correlation there is that it grieves

God. I mean, because none of us want ill for our children, right? That's right.

And so it is, in essence, I see it across the spectrum as that grieving, but again, not that we stop the work of God, because God's work won't be—ever won't be thwarted, but we can certainly miss out on the good

God intended for us to have by removing, by choosing self over the

Savior. Absolutely. The next one is—I put on the guy, test the

Holy Spirit, but I don't think it's necessarily testing the Holy Spirit. I'm looking at 1

John 4, and I'll read verse 1. Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God.

So we're looking to determine which one is coming from the Spirit of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Who wants to tackle that one? I had John pulled up on that, if that's okay. Oh yeah, yeah.

So John chapter 16, oddly enough, in verse 16, a little while I'll no longer see—you'll no longer see me, and again a little while, and you'll see me.

Some of his disciples then said to one another, what is this thing he's telling us? A little while, and you'll not see me, and again a little while, you will see me.

And because I go to the Father. So they were saying, what is this, what is this, what is this, he says for a little while.

Skip down, I had the wrong thing pulled up. Chapter of John.

Yeah, it's 16th chapter of John. Here we go. My bad on the verse. I'm going now to him, this is verse 5,

John chapter 16 verse 5, but now I'm going to him who sent me, and none of you, and none of you ask me where are you going, but because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart.

But I tell you the truth, it is your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you.

But if I go, I will send him to you, and he, and when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment concerning sin, because they do not believe in me, and concerning righteousness, because I go to the

Father. You'll no longer see me, and concerning judgment, because the ruler of the world has been judged. I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.

But when he, the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you in all truth, and he will not speak of his own initiative, but whatever he hears, he'll speak, and he'll discuss to you what is to come.

He will glorify me. That's the biggest part of this. He will glorify me, for he will take of mine, and will disclose it to you.

All things that the Father has are mine, therefore I said that he takes of mine, and will disclose it to you.

Whenever I think about testing to see whether the Spirits be of God, the old sniff test comes back up.

Does this honor and glorify God? Is this something that will, is this something that takes man and abases him, and is this something that draws the lost to the

Lord? If it doesn't do these three things, it might be of spiritual, but it's definitely not of the Holy Spirit, because the

Holy Spirit has come to convince, to convict the world of sin, draw them to himself, and to glorify and testify of Jesus Christ.

Not to be anything other than that in terms of ministry. So these ministries that say, you know, my ministry doesn't preach against sin, it's a ministry that undoubtedly is completely absent of the

Holy Spirit working in it. Amen. Where's the organ? Oh, wait.

I have to call the tone police about that one. Thank you,

Jesus! I hear the tone police, and then what

Tyler just said? That's okay, let the tone police come. The truth is the truth.

I don't even know what the tone police is. The tone police are the same people that feel like they need to sing

Mary Poppins, a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down, but sometimes the meat of the word will do its trick.

Jeremiah, who was it Jeremiah said, your word is like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces.

What about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? This is a tough one that a lot of people struggle with, and you can find it in Matthew 12 31.

Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the

Spirit shall not be forgiven. Well, I think one thing we have to recognize is the preceding verses here, where Jesus is performing miracles, and the

Pharisees are attributing them to Beelzebub, to the adversary, and so I think we've got to recognize that they're looking at the works of Christ.

They're looking at the miracles of Christ and denying the source. They are attributing them to the wrong person.

This isn't a work of the Spirit, this is a work of Satan. Yeah. So when we talk about blaspheming the

Spirit, we're talking about taking the good things that come from God and saying they are from Satan, which honestly

I think brings us in some ways back to the garden with, did

God really say? Is God really like that, or are we trying to reinterpret things?

I think that's what is being fleshed out in Matthew chapter 12, is like this deeper denial of how

God operates. Well, examples of blaspheming would be denying, and this is going to go hand -in -hand with what

Tyler just said, denying the Spirit's power as God, speaking irreverently about the

Spirit, and I'm glad Tyler stressed the context there because you get a lot of talk about the unpardonable sin, all this, that, and the other.

You have to remember part of a consistent biblical interpretation, part of that is understanding the original audience.

The actual sin, this sin of blasphemy that Jesus is specifically dealing with, could only be committed by those in his direct audience at that time that were committing this sin.

Now, this sin I do believe can be committed in the sense of unbelievers, in the sense they ultimately blaspheme the power of the

Spirit and blaspheme the power of God when they live and die in the rejection of His power to save, but in this specific context, they're specifically telling him in person, you're doing this by the power of Satan, and Christ says, you know, no kingdom standing against itself, or no kingdom against itself can stand because if I was doing this claiming to be of God, doing it by the power of Satan, how does that work?

And so that's what Tyler's getting at, that's what the context is getting at. The people that were committing this specific sin of blasphemy of the

Spirit were there in that moment. He's dealing with that. Now, it stands as an example to us to make sure we understand the

Spirit's role and attribute, and we can do these things, we can deny the Spirit's power, we can speak reverently about Him so we can engage in similar sins, but the specific sin that Christ was dealing with was committed by those people that were in his direct audience that day, and we're reading the narrative of what transpired.

At least, that's how I view it. If someone has a different view, I'm obviously open to hearing it.

From my understanding, that's how I see it. I've heard it that way before.

Go ahead, Bethany Clark. You go ahead, John. You go ahead. I've got a question more than a statement, though. So, I've read that out of a couple different study

Bibles, a lot like what you said, and I don't discount that, having no real knowledge contrary, but one of the things that concerns me a little bit is what made the

Pharisees in that day a group of people that had the ability to commit this type of blasphemy that made them separate from, say, us right now on this podcast?

I mean, what they did was blasphemous, and undoubtedly what they did was blaspheme the

Holy Spirit, otherwise Christ wouldn't have brought it up. But was it the fact that they were denying the work of God and accrediting the work of God to the work of the enemy that done it?

Because if that's the case, and I've heard people claim to be speaking on behalf of God on television all the time, who are saying things that are completely contrary to Scripture.

If you just pull your Bible up, you can read exactly the opposite, and they claim to be speaking on behalf of God. Is that the same thing, you think?

Well, I'll definitely admit this particular area, this particular passage is an area that I personally struggle explaining.

I think I have a good wrap around it. I'm with you. I do think that we can see the sin of blaspheming the

Spirit, blaspheming the power of the Spirit, speaking against Him, isn't something that could only happen in that day.

But I guess a better way to put it is based on my current understanding of Scripture, I think

I agree with some commentaries that would say there's a uniqueness to this particular event in the way

Christ was dealing with this sect of people that would be unique compared to how the

Spirit would be blasphemed in our day. And I'm certainly open to correction on this because this is an area, this is one passage

I've struggled with in my life. Admittedly, I don't know. I don't really have a better explanation.

So that's why I asked it in the form of a question. What both of you had said, that certainly traces along the lines of the text there because there has never been a point in a time in history other than those historically, right?

Thirty -three years where God became man, incarnate in the flesh and dwelt among them.

So there will never be a reproducible time in history where we can fully understand the depth of the hatred and the bitterness and the anger and the wrath and the malice that generation, that's what the

Gospels use. The Gospels in the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, or Matthew, Mark and Luke primarily in the synoptic

Gospels, you'll hear Jesus use that term, this generation. It was that generation of men that was absolutely, totally, in one very real sense, unique from every other generation that had ever lived before them and that ever lived after them because Jesus was there.

And so I think the answer can, we always go to the text, right, to answer our question.

So I would take us to Luke chapter 11. If you go to Luke chapter 11 verse 14, another instance of this demon being cast out.

In Luke's account, it's good for us to know in case anybody's not aware, Luke's Gospel is a direct report.

He's taking the testimonies of eyewitnesses and he put them together for the purpose, as we read

Luke chapter 1, of giving Theophilus a more excellent understanding of the

Gospel of Jesus Christ. So here in Luke 14, the scripture says he was casting out a demon that was mute.

When the demon had gone out, the mute man spoke and the people marveled. But some of them, who were them?

The Pharisees, right? Some of them said he casts out demons by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, while others, to test him, kept seeking from him a sign from heaven.

And every time I read that, I think, y 'all are idiots. But he, knowing their thoughts, said to them, every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and a divided house falls.

And if Satan is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say that I cast out demons by Beelzebul, and then

Jesus he turns the tables on him right here.

He said, if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, who do your sons cast out demons by? Because the practice of that day, of the

Pharisees, of the priests, was to go around, quote -unquote, casting out demons, which is no different than what we see today, as was mentioned in the modern -day movement of claiming the

Holy Spirit's power, when it's not the Holy Spirit's power that that is put on display. I would go so far, here's another non -sugar statement, as to say that much of what's being proclaimed in the name of Christ today is done by the power of the devil.

It's done by demonic influence. I would go so far as to say that, because they are appropriating the name of God, but they are applying principles of philosophy, principles of emotion, principles of this and that, doing everything to cause people to turn their minds and their eyes to them, like you said,

John, rather than turning their eyes to the Lord. But then to finish here, Luke 11 20, the last verse there,

Jesus said this to the Pharisees. He said, but if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then know this, the kingdom of God has come upon you.

He's reminding them here. He's letting them know that, again, going back scripture with scripture,

Matthew, he says that every sin and blasphemy a man will be forgiven, except the blasphemy against the

Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit. He said, this is an eternal sin.

It is unforgivable to do such a thing. And so when he was saying that, and then he pointed again in Luke, going back to Luke's account, he said, know this, if I am doing this by the finger of God, by the power of God, then you all need to realize that the kingdom of God is here.

What they were doing at that time, they were denying the kingdom and the power of God.

But what they did not realize, and what we have the blessing and the benefit of in hindsight, which is 2020, is knowing this, that when the king came, the kingdom was there.

We're not waiting. Go ahead. Go ahead, Andy. And there's a sense in which, because we're all judged by the amount of light we have.

And so there's a sense in which those people that saw Jesus face to face, a historical, unique situation that we don't exist in, they will be judged, in my view, a much stricter way in this sense, that you have the literal

Son of God standing in front of you. That's why Jesus said, sorry,

I'm not trying to be overbearing, but again, that's why Jesus said to them that they will stand in judgment.

Sodom and Gomorrah will testify against them. The people who repented at the preaching of Jonah will stand against them.

That's why Jesus said that. Oh, yeah. Let's take it a step further.

No, you're good. If we have the benefit of hindsight, then in a lot of ways, aren't we to be held more accountable?

We have all this scripture behind us to read. We have an indwelling of the Holy Spirit to lead us in this truth, so that as we prophesy our fourth tale out of what's in this book, as God leads us in this truth, then in a lot of ways,

I feel like we may be doubly accountable, because we see— We certainly can't let ourselves off the hook.

Exactly. Amen. I would say triply accountable, because even if you look at church history, we have got more access to the

Bible than ever before. That's right. You go back to the Middle Ages, you go back to the medieval church, and the lay person couldn't read.

It was only the priests, it was only the pastors that had access to the

Bible and the knowledge to be able to read it. Yeah. But we all know how to read.

This is very much ingrained in our society now, is reading. So we have,

I would say, we are triply accountable. Well, I think there's a— Who didn't know this book?

Yeah, and I think there's a verse that speaks to that about teachers and their Yeah, James 3. Yes. Yeah.

Not let many be teachers, because teachers are held to a stricter account. But even in that sense, they're held accountable for what they're actually teaching.

So to John's point, every single person will be held accountable and judged based on the light they had, based on all these factors that God knows perfectly.

I think what we're trying to establish, though, is that there is a unique sense in which these people experienced a test and a stricter judgment because of the situation they had that no one else in history has had.

But then again, like I said, this is a passage that historically,

I think a lot of us struggle with because there is a clarity there, as Claude brought great clarity.

But there is a sense of we weren't there. So there's a lot going on, you know.

Well, before we move on from blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, let me—I like to throw curveballs.

You know how it is, some things just pop up in the middle of the conversation, and I've not brought up eschatology in a while.

So you guys that are familiar with our eschatology conversation, and if you need to think about it more, if nobody's ready for a response on this, and there may not be any correlation at all.

But let me throw this out there. We were in Matthew, and we were looking at the characters who were in that account there, the

Pharisees, Jesus, and their accusations against him and his condemnation of them, blasphemy of the

Holy Spirit. Maybe think about 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, starting in verse 3.

And let me know if you can see any correlation in what we were just talking about and what's going on here.

2 Thessalonians 2, starting in verse 3 and verse 4. "...let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first.

The man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so -called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being

God." Any correlation in what we were talking about? Well, if I could take off for a moment here.

Oh, yeah. So, first of all, it's interesting that Paul uses the phrase, the temple of God, because every other time he talks about the temple, he's talking about the believers, he's talking about the church.

1 Corinthians chapter 3, do you not know that you are the temple of God and the spirit of God dwells within you? Every time

Paul talks about the temple, aside from here, he's talking about not the building, he's talking about the people.

He's talking about a spiritual reality using that concrete illustration.

And so I think when we come to this text, I think that carries. I think that he's talking about, he's using an illustration of the temple of God, this man of lawlessness, this idea of sinfulness, where we sit in the metaphorical temple and claim to be

God, to have this figured out in the same way that Captain Ahab in Melville's novel,

Moby Dick, thought he had circumvented, he had circumscribed the whale, he'd figured out God.

And this is how he operates. And I was smart enough to figure it out. Hey, I've not necessarily heard that, but I don't think we can be dogmatic on this passage because I think...I've

even heard Gary DeMar say, you know, he can't be dogmatic on this passage.

So, anybody else? Well, I agree with Gary that you can't be ultimately dogmatic, but if you're teaching from the standpoint of how you understand it, you would teach, this is what

I think it to be saying, we just have to be graceful and mature. I take Gary DeMar's view on this.

He would see, when he talks about taking his seat in the temple of God, he's using it...to

a degree, I would agree with what Tyler's saying in the metaphorical sense of understanding where when you use this language in their day, they understand what you're saying is that this person's taking a seat of authority because the seat in the temple of God, putting yourself up there as speaking for God, as on par with God.

And Gary's view is that the people that this was written to in their day, they knew who this person was.

He's not named, but they knew who he was. So, when he uses these descriptors, they would understand, okay, you understand who this person is.

You understand who was restraining him at the time from keeping him from doing everything he wanted to do.

And this apostasy that was referenced here happened in their time. So, he would take, obviously, the post -millennial partial preterist view in the sense that, since this was written, the original audience would have understood it that, okay,

Paul knows who we're talking about. We know who this guy is. He puts himself in the seat of temple of God, putting himself up as God.

For this man of lawlessness who's not identified, my view would be that they knew who he was.

And he was to sort of phrase this in the understanding of why he asked the question. These Pharisees of Matthew 12, this man was the ultimate representation of that blasphemy.

And even in the pre -millennial or even the pre -millennial dispensational understanding with the

Antichrist figure would still do and operate the same way that I would say he operates.

We just see him as in two different ways. I see it more of this was someone that existed at that time, whereas a futurist may see it as someone that is coming.

So, there are similarities. That's why you can't be ultra -dogmatic on it. So, regardless of who he is, you're seeing that correlation, too.

There's principles that are correlation, I think. I think you can see it. A blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Yeah, you see a full -on blasphemy here, because this person is saying not just that I'm questioning the

Spirit's power, but I'm telling you I speak for God. And he's essentially putting himself equal to God. Yeah, which was as God had established the role of the high priest once a year, but the practice was for the

Caesars of that day to be called God, and that's what happened.

But I'm not coming from a pre -millennial dispensational view or from a partial preterist post -millennial view.

I'm coming from a partial preterist amillennial view. So, we've got a good mix here in our group.

Uh -oh, Tyler's cracking his neck. Don't hurt me. Have you drifted?

Have you drifted? I'm telling you, the more I study the more I study eschatology out, again,

I don't know if there is such a thing as a partial preterist amillennialist, but that's what I am. That's what

I was at one point. I've been all of them at some point. That's why you gotta be gracious with our brothers when they disagree with us, because we all have to admit we don't know everything.

It'll make for a great couple of podcast episodes. Aren't we scheduled to do something on eschatology?

We already did something on eschatology. We did, but we can circle back around. Oh, that must have been before my time.

It was before your time. I do think it's very important that we do have... Before my time, Tyler.

I sat through a couple of... I was actually reading definitions as they were talking about them, because I said,

I don't know what they said. Brother Robert asked me a couple times about a question.

I was like, I don't know. Next. I think pretty much we were walking through Matthew 24.

We were. I think most of us were leaning more towards the postmill perspective, but I think if we circle back around to it, we can take these different viewpoints and have a kind of different discussion other than just walking through Matthew 24, which would be a good conversation.

We've just about run out of time. We went a little over an hour. Holy Spirit part four.

Well, I'm open to it. Are you guys open to it? I'm fine. I think it's been good to work through these questions very slowly.

I think it would be definitely worth it to keep putting this content out like that.

Get this kind of stuff in people's hands. So I'm down for going through these questions slowly.

Because when you look at what remains, what you've outlined for us, Robert, you still have some really good questions that we haven't covered yet.

Well, I think the big conversation where we've not gotten really controversial yet is coming up, and I think we can condense it to that conversation, and part four could be our last one on the

Holy Spirit because we want to get to continuationism, cessationism, the gifts of the

Holy Spirit. Are they still for today, or have they ceased?

We want to have that conversation. So I think I'll work on the questions and condense it to that type of conversation for next time.

I thought you were talking about being controversial by the question, what is the role of the Holy Spirit in salvation and regeneration and sanctification?

We kind of talked about that one, I think, already, didn't we? A little bit. We touched on it a little bit, yeah.

But man, there's a lot in that question. You've got lordship, salvation, you've got

Calvinism. I want to do a quick point of order here, just shameless plug for my friend

Claude. Has anybody noticed what shirt Rob is wearing? That's right. What does that shirt say,

Rob? The Here I Stand Theology Podcast, and I can do no other.

Andy, I need you to send me, I need you to text me your address, and I've got a, are you a large or an

XL? Probably double X. I may have an

XL. I'll send you one. And by the way, I'm sporting the Truth and Love Network t -shirt.

I love it. Yeah, I enjoy my Bojangles. Well, I thank you guys for your participation.

Wonderful conversation, again, about the Holy Spirit, and we'll, maybe we'll do a part five, but we'll at least look for a part four coming up.

And last of all, before you have somebody close with the gospel and prayer, I would like to give a practical word of advice.

If you are using more than two monitors, and you have your third monitor as your iPad with the keyboard attached, and you've got your keyboard for your regular

Mac that you're using, and you're trying to look at five different things on the, on three screens, when you try to type on your iPad keyboard, it's not going to translate to your regular

Mac keyboard. So know what you're looking at and what you're typing on, because otherwise you will be utterly confused.

This tech moment has been brought to you by the Happy Calvinists.

Well, there's one thing that we're not confused about. So, Big John, would you share the gospel with us?

And Andy, will you close us in prayer? So, as we've talked about tonight, mankind, from the cradle to the grave, is totally depraved and in need of a

Savior. And as the Spirit of God draws us to Him, and man surrenders to Jesus Christ, he is allowed to be saved, because the blood of Christ was shed on the cross over 2 ,000 years ago.

And three days later, he rose from the dead, forever defeating death, hell, and the grave. And access to salvation is granted by that act, that obedience of the

Son of God on that tree, and through his resurrection. And there's no question about whether or not you need salvation.

It's just a question as to whether or not you have been saved. There's only two types of people, lost and saved.

That's it. You're either one or the other. And if you're not saved, I plead with you, no matter what else you ever heard from the time you've ever turned on this podcast, surrender to Jesus Christ.

Surrender to Him at this moment, and you'll begin to live today. This will be the first day you've ever lived, and you'll live forever.

Amen. All right, let's pray. Father, I do ask that you would bless our time together, and I do ask that you would bless the preaching of your

Word that has been conducted tonight. Lord, preaching takes on many forms, and simply preaching is a teaching of your

Word. It's a forth -telling. It's a proclamation that thus saith the Lord. And Big John has wrapped us up well here with this proclamation of the

Gospel, which is your Gospel. David, very often in his Psalms, talks about the salvation of God.

It is not the salvation of man. It is the salvation of God that is gracefully extended to man, of which

I am a recipient of that salvation, and my brothers here tonight are as well. And as John referenced,

Father, we pray that anyone under the sound of our voice tonight that has not repented of their sin and put their full faith and trust in Jesus Christ, that they will do that tonight, that this will be the first day of their new birth, by your

Spirit. Lord, I thank you for your Spirit. I thank you for the very Spirit of God, the third person of the

Trinity, the one who raises us to life. Father, your Spirit that comforts us, that is our comforter, that leads us into righteousness.

We do not find it on our own, but we are led into it, as you are our loving shepherd that guides us.

Father, I do thank you for this network, this truth and love network that has been born out of a vision from Robert and others that had a desire to see your

Word mined for its depth, but also done in a understandable way.

And I hope that that is what we are doing, that we are willing to see the great depth of your

Word, but also recognize that we need to make it practical. It needs to be something that we can take with us tomorrow in our life.

And I thank you for this group and this podcast. And Lord, I pray that you would have us to be discipled in your

Word and into Christ's likeness, and those that would listen would be discipled into Christ's likeness as well.

And finally, as we close tonight, Father, I want to thank you and pray that we would wake up tomorrow refreshed, that we would be ready to demonstrate

Christ in our lives, whether it's at work or at the doctor's office, at the grocery store, wherever we find ourselves, that we would, as many people in ministry, use this statement.

It's very consistent among us as your people. We talk about all of Christ for all of life. And Lord, I want to see all of your

Son in me, and all of your Son in Claude, and Robert, and Tyler, and John, and anyone listening to us tonight.

And we want to thank you for it in the wonderful and precious name of Jesus. Amen. Amen. Thank you guys for watching and listening.

We really appreciate it, and we would like to ask you to remember that Jesus is King. Go live in the victory of Christ.

Go speak with the authority of Christ, and continue to go out there and share the gospel of Christ. We hope to see you soon.