Be Honest... Are You Scared of Jesus Coming Back? (w/ Chris Gordon) | Theocast

Theocast

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

When you think about Jesus coming back, does it bring joy and hope, anticipation or fear or possibly confusion?

00:08

On today's episode, that's what we're going to be discussing. What happened to the return of Christ? What happened to eschatology and why it matters?

00:15

And it's a special recording for those of you that heard about the conference. This is the live podcast that we did with Chris Gordon at the conference in Escondido.

00:24

We're excited about it. And all of the audio and videos are available if you want to go to the community website or you can go to the app and download it and listen to the lectures that myself,

00:33

Chris, Justin did and Dr. Bob Godfrey, including all of the panel discussions. So stay tuned for a lively discussion with Justin Perdue, myself,

00:43

John Moffitt and Chris Gordon. If you're new to Theocast, you may not have heard of this word. It's called pietism.

00:49

Have you ever felt like the Christian life is a heavy burden versus rest and joy? That you wake up worrying about how well you're going to perform instead of thinking about what

00:59

Christ has done for you? It's dread versus joy, really. That's pietism. Pietism causes

01:06

Christians to look in on themselves and find their hope not in what Christ has done, but what they're doing.

01:13

And we have a little book for you. It's free. We want you to download it. And we're going to explain the difference between pietism and what we call confessionalism.

01:20

Reform theology, really. How it is that we walk by faith, seeing the joy of Christ, and when

01:26

Jesus says, come to me and I will give you rest, what does that look like? You can download it on our website.

01:32

Just go to theocast .org. Well, thank you today for watching, tuning in, and for joining us in our live studio recording with Abounding Grace Radio and Theocast, my dear brothers,

01:55

Pastor John Moffitt and Pastor Justin Perdue. We are so thankful to be able to do this for this mini -conference that we're doing here in Escondido on eschatology.

02:05

And today we sit here in front of, oh, I'd say maybe a couple hundred people who have come out to hear this, and we hope to be a blessing to them.

02:15

Maybe we'll just begin by a way of introduction, telling the group and those listening who we are.

02:21

I'm Chris Gordon. I'm the pastor here at the Escondido United Reformed Church, host also of Abounding Grace Radio.

02:27

We've had Abounding Grace Radio in place since about 2005. We aired mainly with brick -and -mortar radio.

02:34

We weren't as innovative as these guys jumping into internet. We were kind of old school to begin with.

02:39

That's because we were poor. That does factor in. Yes, it does.

02:46

So we aired throughout Africa and up into Canada, many places in the

02:52

U .S. and Canada. Brick -and -mortar radio is expensive, and we have now sort of done a hybrid approach to now work to do more podcasting and videocasting.

03:03

We now have a videocast. You'll see many wonderful guests, such as Dr. Godfrey and others, who have come on to wrestle with all these challenging subjects.

03:11

And Theocast has been on there too. Theocast has been on, yes. But anyways, we're thankful for this opportunity.

03:16

And today to join with Theocast, who I greatly respect your work and I'm appreciative of all that you guys do.

03:23

Yeah, and one more plug for you guys. If you've not got Chris's book, which is out on the table here on the left,

03:29

You Need To, A Catechism on Sexuality, is that for donation or for free? That's for free.

03:35

Awesome. Make sure you grab those if you have not done so. I'll pay you for that later.

03:40

You're welcome. Absolutely. If you feel led to give a seed gift or anything like that, please feel free.

03:46

Those bricks are getting heavy. That's right. For those of you that may be here because of AG, I keep saying

03:52

TV, I don't know why that. Abounding Grace Radio. I'm John Moffitt. I'm a pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee, just south of Nashville.

04:00

And I've been with Justin. This is going on our fifth year, is that correct? Five years. So there you go. Five years. And I'm Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

04:09

For those of you who aren't familiar, that's in the western part of the state in the mountains. And it definitely has a kind of Northern California, Pacific Northwest vibe to it.

04:18

So I feel comfortable out here. And I love California. If that means anything to you, there you go.

04:25

Happy to be here today. Everyone loves California. Yeah, man. Yeah. Well, people definitely who've been here love it.

04:31

People who don't. There's a lot of people fleeing it. Yeah. But we're trying to keep... There's someone coming to Tennessee.

04:37

Raise your hand. Where are you at? There's someone coming to Tennessee in a couple of weeks. Yeah. And contrary to popular opinion, there are many of the Lord's people in this state.

04:43

It's true. It's true. My goodness. Somebody has to minister in Nineveh. It's true. Wow. What's up,

04:51

Ninevites? Man. We're off to a rolling start. We probably should get on topic here.

04:57

So today we thought we'd discuss... The topic of this is how eschatology has shaped the

05:05

American church. That's... There's a larger historical challenge to that. I said to these brothers the other day,

05:13

I said... You were anxious, Chris. It's okay. Yeah. It's a challenging historical question that we should really give to Dr.

05:18

Godfrey. So we decided that we're going to focus on the practical aspects of that because there is a...

05:25

It's a challenging thing to think why... How has eschatology shaped American Christianity?

05:31

And that would depend on the different groups you're a part of, whether you're Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, Pentecostal.

05:38

All that plays in in different ways. And I think it is somewhat complex.

05:43

But an interesting question, nonetheless. I think something John said yesterday that I thought was really helpful was what...

05:51

We need our wives to often help us because we get stuck in the clouds. And your wife said something I thought was really helpful for this to kind of get it off on a right.

05:58

Yeah. Yeah. Well, just asking about the conference and what are we talking about. And for me often, if I can have somebody

06:06

I need to talk to that helps me explain. And really it's like, how do you explain such a scary, complicated subject?

06:12

And know that you're getting a biblical answer as like, why does it matter about the end of all things?

06:21

And what I love about... And we kind of wrestled through the title of this for quite a while. And I'm glad we did. But we came up with the concept of hope.

06:28

And if your eschatology at the end of your time in God's word does not lead you to hope, then

06:34

I think your eschatology is wrong. And that's kind of what I told her the conference is about. Like at the end of the world, this is not a place of fear, dread, anxiety.

06:43

It should be a place of hope. And if your eschatology produces fear, that's wrong, like you're saying.

06:49

And if it produces hope in this life versus hope in the world to come and in the return of Christ in an ultimate sense, we've maybe missed something as well.

06:58

And since there's three pastors up here, you get three introductions. That's just kind of how this goes. I want to reiterate what Chris said. We are not aiming to have just a fully orbed historical conversation, but we want to have a pastoral one.

07:08

Like why does this matter for you on a Thursday morning or next Tuesday afternoon when you're encountering the things that you encounter in your place of work or in your home with your families?

07:17

Why does this matter? Why does the return of Christ matter in the hope that we've been given in him? What does that do for our day -to -day experience of trusting

07:25

Jesus and living the Christian life? That's what we hope to do. Yeah. I think we should jump in biographical and talk a little bit about this subject is, it's of a lot of importance to me just because of how

07:37

I was raised. And I think a lot of people can relate to this. I was raised under the movie series,

07:44

Left Behind. Yeah. And the guillotine scene has never really left my nightmares or the song, which is horrible, to which

07:55

I will not sing. Is that Thief in the Night? Thief in the Night. Yes. But yeah, I don't know if your youth pastor decided to lay all the clothes out and flash the lights and you walk in and you're the one that was left behind.

08:07

But that, whenever I thought about the return of Jesus, two thoughts came to my mind.

08:12

One, it's like, well, that's when all fun ends and that's when hell begins. And number two,

08:18

I really didn't want him to come back until I got married because I wanted to at least experience something that was of value. Because I had no value for the afterlife.

08:26

It was just basically when the judge shows up, don't get caught. That was my view. And then we would sing happy songs about heaven.

08:32

But I was like, I don't know if I want to live with this king because this doesn't sound exciting.

08:39

I'm supposed to be, and there was a lot of fake excitement that went along with it. But as far as when you read passages of scripture, like we're going to look at that here in a minute from Peter, and he's like, put your hope fully in the return of Christ.

08:51

It's like, I'm not really excited about this guy with a sword coming out of his mouth cutting me up to pieces here.

08:57

This does not sound exciting to me. Like guillotines and helicopters, even if that's real. So it was -

09:03

Cobra, Cobra helicopters. Apache helicopters. So my experience for many years was

09:11

I just stopped thinking about heaven and I stopped thinking about Christ as victor.

09:17

And it really just became like, how do I keep Jesus happy so I can have a better life? That became more important to me than which

09:25

I would say the New Testament builds on the Old Testament of creating and anticipating hope of Christ's return.

09:32

My background is a little different. So the church I grew up in was intentionally all theological, like theology and doctrine just are not helpful.

09:42

That's the kind of church I grew up in. Yet as a high school student, we would go to the judgment house every

09:47

Halloween, which was effectively the same thing where you're walked through kind of in 3D, right?

09:52

You walk through this scenario of, of course there are other teenagers and they're out partying and those kinds of things and they die in a car accident.

09:59

And then there's this other group of teenagers that are like on the straight and narrow, you know, living right, morally upright kids.

10:05

And you kind of track with both groups of teenagers and they both end up tragically dying young.

10:12

And of course they're standing before the judge and it's all terror and dread and fear because you see the one group of kids morally upright.

10:21

It's all good. They're with Jesus. The other group that had been immoral are obviously facing judgment.

10:28

There's hell, there's demons, there's all this stuff. And then you're given the typical presentation at the end.

10:34

So if you die tonight, which group do you want to be in? And that was kind of my experience of it.

10:40

The other thing I will say is I, until I was in my early twenties had never had anybody look me in the face or from the pulpit teach me that the new heavens and the new earth will be physical, that we will be bodily resurrected and that the end goal of God is that we would be bodily resurrected to dwell with him in a new heavens and a new earth forever.

11:04

And that we would be with Jesus and see him as he is. We would fellowship with him and with one another. I was never taught that.

11:11

And so my idea is like yours, John, of even eternal life and life after the grave were so anemic.

11:18

It's like, there's no hope in this. No. Right. It's almost like in the new heavens, new earth, all senses are gone.

11:24

Everything's black and white. Yeah. We don't taste, see, touch, feel, experience emotion. Certainly it's not an epic thing to look forward to.

11:30

No. I mean, it even blows people's minds when you start to think about eating good food at the father's table.

11:37

Yeah. Embracing each other, embracing Christ and experiencing the physical touch, like the joy that that brings.

11:44

And then Chris, I'd love to hear from you, man. One of our elders in our church, when he administers the

11:50

Lord's Supper recently, just in the last few months, one of the things that he's drawn particular attention to that has touched my soul is

11:57

Jesus' words that, I'm not going to drink of this again until I drink it with you anew.

12:03

And he's like, brothers and sisters, the next time our Lord and Savior drinks of the fruit of the vine, he's going to be doing it with us.

12:10

Like, what a thought that we will fellowship and commune with our Savior like that. Anyway.

12:16

Yeah. My situation is a little different than yours. I actually grew up in a Reformed church. By the grace of God.

12:22

We're not all as blessed as you, brother. Well, not all Reformed are the same. I grew up in a

12:29

Reformed church. I had the catechism. I was trained in the catechism. I think, though, when

12:35

I look back on it, I think the general attitude, which would have been a sort of amillennial position, was that much of this discussion had been hijacked, at least when

12:45

I grew up, by the dispensationalists. And so they were the ones on the airwaves. They dominated the airwaves.

12:51

Which I'm sure we're going to get into that. Yeah. Yeah, it's true. And so it created a kind of fear,

12:57

I think, in my particular tradition, for it to even be addressed very much.

13:02

I mean, Revelation, I'm not saying there weren't pastors who did it, but I can't recall a lot of discussion or even interest in it.

13:11

Yeah. So if you had an over -interest by the dispensationalists, you know, and how

13:17

Lindsay's writing his book at that time, Late Great Planet Earth, that thing sold millions of copies.

13:23

One of the top seven. And he made millions of dollars on that. You know, we responded sort of in the opposite way.

13:30

You know, what does that do for us in the moment? I think there was a lot of fear with it because of the things that were said in dispensationalism.

13:39

And let's face it, I mean, if you hold to a proper eschatology, you have to have a good understanding of human suffering.

13:47

You have to have a theology of suffering. That doesn't sell. That's not very popular.

13:53

So I think we need to counter that. I think we need to combat that and say that though we do have a good theology of suffering, there is hope in the midst of it and purpose in the midst of it that the scriptures give us.

14:07

But I look back on my time and think there was just, there was so much confusion in that era. You know, many of us, if we wanted to learn about eschatology, we had,

14:16

I mean, believe it or not, I grew up in the foreign church. I was taken to those videos, the Left Behind, or what was it?

14:22

The Thief in the Night series over at the local Pentecostal church. And then they all broke out in tongues and I had no idea what that was.

14:31

So anyways, that's another story. But I think there's, I think what all this exposes is the subject is clouded with a lot of fear.

14:40

It's just immersed in fear. And I think if you look at the message across the board from the

14:46

New Testament, it's pushing us to look in hope to this great blessing of the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting, the promises of the gospel.

14:56

Heidelberg highlights two promises, resurrection of the body, life everlasting. That is not meant to terrify

15:02

God's sheep in this present age. And I would jump in and say, this is why the historic understanding of the three uses of the laws is so important because a lot of eschatology, specifically when we're talking about dispensationalism is first use only.

15:15

Listen, if you are a rebeller against an almighty God, there's much to fear on his return and you should be afraid.

15:24

But for the child, that's no. We are anticipating the restoration of our relationship to the father, right?

15:32

And so it's almost like a parent who had tried parenting their child with love and it didn't work.

15:39

They're like, well, I know fear and anger does, so we're just gonna scare people into obedience. And that's what often eschatology feels like that you either agree with God or else, and even to the believer.

15:53

And that I realized as a pastor, and I realized for me, I don't, when, first of all,

15:58

I'm a rebel at heart. So you tell me not to do something, I do it. It's really bad. My wife - That's Romans. It's called the corruption of the flesh.

16:04

My wife is full of grace and mercy and deals with my corruption. But when

16:10

I then read of God's love for me and how that, like when Paul says, the love of God controls me,

16:17

I'm like, well, that actually makes sense to me because I care about what God cares about because I love him.

16:23

And I'm not afraid of him, yet he is a fearful being. I mean, he's, can you describe anything else more awe -inspiring than a holy

16:31

God? Yet he puts his affection upon me and then says, hey, you should really anticipate my return.

16:38

It's the one aspect of your faith that will get you through all of the suffering you're about to endure.

16:44

And so for those of you that may not be familiar, the first, second, third use of the law, this is what, that hermeneutic creates boundaries to prevent us from misapplying first uses when we should be really using them as third uses.

16:59

And inevitably, we're not gonna be able to have a conversation without talking about the distinction between the law and the gospel also because the collapsing of those two categories produces nothing but fear and uneasiness, terror even in the souls of many sitting here as you think about standing before the

17:13

Lord at the end of it all, because we're convinced that there's something in me that is gonna be necessary.

17:19

There is something that I have to muster up and produce that I'm gonna need to have with me and it's gonna need to be good enough if I can actually have hope for that day.

17:28

And instead of realizing that Jesus, in terms of curse and judgment and fear and terror and all of those things that we're talking about right now,

17:34

Christ has endured all of that in the place of his people so that we bear it no longer. And all of the judgment, all of the curse, he drained it all.

17:45

He represented us and he took it all. And if we thought more on that, it would help us to see that man, there really is nothing to fear with respect to the return of Christ.

17:54

And so our confession, the Second London Baptist Confession, at the end in chapter 32 on how all of these things will culminate, one of the reasons why we do not know the day or the hour of Christ's return, it is to help us and produce vigilance, amen.

18:10

And it is also so that we can wake up every day and say, today might be the day. That is lost on us because that's a terrifying reality for many

18:18

Christians. Well, if he, man, if he comes back today, I gotta get my house in order. There's a lot of stuff that I need to do. Or because we are so earthbound in our thinking, which we'll get to this later, we tend to think about all the earthly stuff that we're gonna miss out on or whatever because we've been given such an anemic understanding of what the next life will be like.

18:36

So there's all these thoughts that we wrestle with. If you were to, Jesus could come back today. How do you feel right now?

18:42

You probably have mixed feelings because we've not been taught well. And at least if we're taught well, we've got a chance of feeling the hope in our hearts and souls that we should.

18:51

Yeah, I mean, you have to constantly go back to Romans 8 .1 in this discussion. There is therefore now no condemnation.

18:58

What that means in AD 30 in the month of Nisan, about the six hours of the day when Jesus said, it's finished, he took on your sins.

19:05

He bore them, he paid for them, that the judgment in history, your judgment, took place then.

19:11

Amen. And that all of your record of debt has been canceled. Through faith in Christ, you receive all of his benefits.

19:17

So that the presentation of Judgment Day, Revelation 19, 20,

19:23

Revelation 20, is that, listen, there's two books open. There's the Book of Deeds. You don't want your name written in the

19:30

Book of Deeds. If you're not a believer, your name goes in the Book of Deeds. And just like that first use of the law we're talking about.

19:37

You'll be judged according to your works. You're gonna be judged according to how you did in this life and you don't get a pass if you did just okay.

19:44

It's full and complete, perfect obedience God demands. But then there's the Lamb's Book of Life. And there's not one deed written in that book.

19:52

Other than the ones he did. Well, it's just names. It's names. It's just names. Written in blood? No, amen.

19:57

Written in blood because he has covered us. And that's the basis on justification by which we have access, faith today, and hope for the second coming.

20:07

And the Lord desires for his people to live this way.

20:13

Amen. He does not desire for us to run around doubting his promises.

20:19

Now, I know we do, like you said. That's part of our problem. That's why we need a ministry of the gospel. That's why we need the scriptures to help us.

20:26

But that's not his will. He wants us, think of Peter. Blessed be the

20:31

God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his abundant mercy has begotten us.

20:36

He's given us a new birth to a living hope. That's living.

20:41

It's not dead, right? Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead to an inheritance.

20:48

Yeah, it's just kind of sitting there. Maybe you'll get in. That's not what he says. No. To an inheritance incorruptible, undefiled, that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, waiting for you.

21:04

You see, that's what we need to hear. That's right. That's what drives us in the Christian life. And he says, who are, and he goes on, if you haven't got it yet, who are kept by the power of God, the dunamis of God.

21:14

It's not your power that's keeping yourself. Through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

21:21

And then he goes on in verse 13. Therefore, gird up the loins of your mind, be sober. Here it is.

21:27

And rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

21:35

That's not in question for those who are his children. It is to be brought to you. It's coming for you.

21:40

It's yours. It's been merited. It's secured. That's what the gospel is all about. Well, in verse eight, in between what you just read, is also encouraging where Peter says to the saints, as we would say to us today, though you have not seen him, you love him.

21:52

And though you don't now see him, you believe in him. And here is what that means for you. And every saint in your heart, in your mind, you feel those things, you know those things.

22:02

Like, yeah, I haven't seen him, but I do believe in him. And I don't now see him. I love him. And that means something.

22:07

Like Jesus in John 16, when he is talking to his disciples the night before he's gonna die and he's gonna leave them and there's all this fear, this man that we've been with for three years, who we believe is the

22:17

Christ of God, imperfectly but really we believe that, he's gonna leave us. And he comforts them over and over and over again in that upper room discourse.

22:26

But I was struck recently reading John 16 when he is explaining to them, I've said these things to you in figures of speech.

22:33

The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figures of speech, but will tell you plainly about the father. In that day, you will ask in my name.

22:40

And I do not say to you that I will ask the father on your behalf, for the father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I've come from God.

22:52

Those are the things we need to hear. Come on now. That's that Baptist moment right there. Come on now. Come on now.

22:58

I'm a Presbyterian. I don't do that stuff. I was about to start raising my hand down there, Darren, in Christ alone. Just wait till this afternoon,

23:04

Chris. Man. Hey, listen, the Psalm says raise your hands, I obey. Okay.

23:10

All right, so I'm gonna take this somewhere. Go ahead. So this is important because I'm preaching through Peter right now.

23:15

So I'm thinking biography and I'm thinking about the history. Rome, Nero is out of control at this moment.

23:22

So if we were to transport the United States to Rome, dispensationalists would be having a heyday because if you ever watch historically, like during World War II, dispensationalists was on the rise, right?

23:36

Everything is a disaster. Everything's out of control. It's in chaos. And because there's a

23:41

World War, Jesus is coming back, right? And I grew up with like the idea of the

23:46

Bible and the newspaper in the hand, where America starts to get into more of a prosperity.

23:53

We're doing well, but it feels like post -millennialism is now on the rise, right? And we're talking about really the transformation of culture.

24:01

And so I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts on this because according to Peter, Peter doesn't go dispensational in his writing.

24:08

Well, just briefly, and then we can talk more about a number of things. I think what you just said is entirely accurate and it's a demonstration that often our eschatological views are driven very much by circumstance.

24:20

That's right. It's not driven by the text of scripture, but we look around, things are terrible, dispensationalism sells because of its framework.

24:27

We look around, things are really good. We buy into this like pop level, hyper optimistic post -millennialism, you know, like is so common today.

24:35

And it's really entirely driven by what's going on in the culture, which is not a good way to do theology.

24:41

And it's not a good thing to hitch your wagon to in terms of the hope for your soul, right?

24:47

Right, and I think, I mean, this is a really important point to the discussion. Yeah, one's eschatology is often dictated in the moment by surrounding often political circumstances, right?

24:59

And that's exactly what's happened right now, the sort of pop post -millennialism that has taken root.

25:06

And I find it an interesting time. You're absolutely right about dispensationalism. It's kind of interesting to think how the eschatologies are then pitched or critiqued by those on the opposite end of the spectrum.

25:18

You get the pessimistic or the optimistic charge thrown everywhere, which is fascinating.

25:24

With dispensationalism, it's historically been, you know, characterized as a pessimistic eschatology, which

25:31

I think is right. They wouldn't so much agree with that because they say, well, we get raptured out. But the reality is, you know, for those who don't make the rapture, it's an awful scenario that then follows.

25:43

But you're absolutely right in terms of cultural context and political situations.

25:50

I find it interesting that, as we have seen the collapse of Christendom, very few people, at least in my circles, maybe in your circles it's different, are talking about the rapture.

26:02

A lot of people right now are talking about how to reclaim and make a sort of Christian nationalist movement to reclaim

26:11

America for Christianity. That comes at the end of a long run of American prosperity in a nation that had the greatest light ever in the nations of the world.

26:22

Bibles, gospel preached, churches. Look what this nation, in its borders, has done to the ends of the earth.

26:29

Now it comes to a point of Christendom collapsing, typically viewed as, not so much as Dr.

26:37

Godfrey's made the case, the Obergefell decision. Not the Obergefell decision, but the response to it.

26:42

Where was the outcry? Where was the outcry? So now all of a sudden, everyone's taking the reins to try to save America, save Christianity in America.

26:52

What has that done to our hope? I think that's a really important question. Are our minds set on things above where Christ is, or are we so caught up now in temporary things that we have taken our eyes actually off the coming of Christ?

27:11

And that's my question. Who's talking about the judgment? Who's talking about the second coming?

27:17

These are largely, I'm not saying across the board, these are largely absent from pulpits today where they've been replaced, which is burdening

27:25

God's people with political activism. Yeah, and you're weaving political activism, to use your phrase, into the mission of the church.

27:35

Like you are burdening saints to where we understand a piece of our fidelity to the Lord Jesus is to be cultural transformers.

27:43

It's to even overhaul the government. And we could talk about this. There's not a drop of ink spilled in the

27:49

New Testament on either one of those things regarding the transformation of culture or overhauling government. The assumption of Jesus and the apostles is that the church will be a counter culture.

27:59

And I think we've lost sight of that. And I agree completely that nobody's talking about the return of Jesus.

28:04

Nobody's talking about the judgment because we have become so earthbound in our thinking. We've become so wrapped up in how our lives look in the

28:13

United States of America. And we are not thinking about the life to come in the ways that we should be. I think that's apparent.

28:19

I mean, just to go back to the, since we're in 1 Peter, thank you, because I got a lot to say about 1

28:25

Peter. He starts the letter, he says, to those who are elect exiles. That's their identity.

28:31

It's how you should see yourselves. He ends the letter in chapter five. He says, she who is in Babylon, meaning the church that's in Babylon.

28:38

Well, Babylon hadn't existed for a very long time. He's talking about Rome houses the spirit of Babylon.

28:44

This really nefarious and sexually driven culture. So Peter says, everything

28:51

I just wrote to you about your hope and what the work that needs to be done, I understand.

28:56

We live in a culture of degradation. It is going downhill. And his, what's interesting is he's focusing their hope on the mission, which is, listen, you're holding the light of Christ in probably the darkest parts of the world right now, because Rome was pretty bad.

29:13

And about two years when the second letter comes out, it gets even worse is when the burnings start. He says, look, this is why one, you can't, we're not looking for an exit plan because what you're doing matters.

29:25

So while you do it, first of all, let's talk about, there's no earning. You don't need to earn the father's eye.

29:31

You don't need to earn the father's favor and you don't need to earn the father's blessing. All of that's already been given to you.

29:37

Now put your hope on that because there's work to do. What ends up happening though is, for instance, in the dispensational world, it's very pietistic in that you need to be earning your rewards and even maybe your place in heaven.

29:50

Keep your life clean and then stack up those crowns. We were singing in the van last night on the way home. All these crown songs are just kind of funny that we grew up on.

29:58

On the post -millennial side. Can you sing one? Nope. On the post -millennial side. On the post -mill side, there's a different kind of pietism in that we're trying to take the credit for developing the new heavens and the new earth here.

30:12

As though we're going to usher it in. Right. I'm like, listen, it says when he returns, all things are made new.

30:18

It's not all things are made new and then he returns, which I don't, you know, I don't even think it's alluded to.

30:24

It's not like I'm a biblicist and I need an actual chapter and verse, but it literally talks about when

30:29

I return is when all things. This is why he's like, in 1 Peter 1, set your hope fully when, when it's revealed at his return.

30:40

And it's important because I think that the Christian life will have its ebbs and flows. I think you're right,

30:46

Chris, in that America has experienced a blessedness in that we had a freedom to share the gospel in ways that I think a lot of other cultures could only dream of.

30:56

That's going away, but that doesn't mean the hope of our mission goes away. It just means that it's just changing.

31:01

Hey guys, real quick. Some of you are listening to this and it's encouraging to you, but you have questions. So where do you go?

31:08

How do you interact with other people who have the same questions and share resources? We have started something called the

31:14

Theocast Community. We're excited because not only is it a place for you to connect with other like -minded believers, all of our resources there, past podcasts, education materials, articles, all of it's there and you can share it and ask questions.

31:26

You can go check it out. The link is in the description below. And I think this is where it gets to optimism and pessimism.

31:33

The discussion is really important because it's really an order issue. If you have a two -age view, in other words, this age and the age to come.

31:44

If you're trying to bring the age to come into this age, you're going to have a lot of confusion. And I think that's what's happened with a lot of them.

31:50

I mean, historically, post -millennials had a good, post -millennials had a long run in America, which is an interesting question again, if Dr.

31:57

Godfrey ever wants to tackle the questions after. But it's interesting to think about what is optimistic and what is pessimistic.

32:06

Historically, they say post -millennials present themselves as optimistic because, well, what's going to happen before the coming of Christ is we are going to see the nations come to Jesus.

32:16

They are going to bow the feet. We're going to see massive repentance and the enemies are all going to be put under Christ's feet.

32:23

All of that language is reserved for the coming of Jesus when all the enemies are put under and the resurrection of our bodies happen and the new heavens and the new earth comes.

32:36

It looks to the age to come for this. So they pitch it as, here's the optimistic view and any other view is going to be inherently pessimistic because it doesn't achieve it in this age.

32:48

And we are saying, wait a minute. Exactly. We're not so earthly bound and earthly minded.

32:54

We're supposed to be heavenly minded. We are not pessimists. We are not defeatists.

33:00

We are not those who run around and think we just take it on the chin for no good reason. We actually hold a view.

33:08

Christ said, be of good cheer. I've already overcome the world. The victory is won.

33:16

The whole book of Revelation is Jesus has won the victory and now the mission of the church is you shall go and take the gospel into all the world as a witness and then the end shall come.

33:27

Go preach the gospel. Make known the truth. Minister. Christians can be involved in the good of society.

33:33

We should encourage that. Absolutely. But the point is we are looking for a new heavens and a new earth where righteousness shall dwell.

33:41

That's an inherently optimistic vision of everything. That's exactly right. A dead giveaway that we're not thinking that way is that if you consider the last hundred years, ask yourself how many really good hymns have been written about heaven?

33:54

Not many. For a long time. Because we don't think these ways. I mean,

34:00

I amen everything that you just said regarding the return of our Savior and Jesus having won the victory and how the apostles write in the

34:07

New Testament thereby to saints in terms of how we live life. This isn't that podcast you alluded to it.

34:13

We are called to any numbers of vocations in service of our neighbor. We seek the welfare of the city while we're here.

34:18

We dig wells and cisterns, all of those kinds of things. And yet the mission of the church remains the right preaching of the word of Christ, the right administration of the sacraments, the right administration of discipline for the salvation of God's people.

34:33

And it's a sadness, I think, from our perspective when you look around and you read the language of Peter to elect exiles, to those who are sojourners and pilgrims in this life.

34:44

And then we have, I trust, well -intentioned saints. I would never impugn their motivations in the

34:49

United States. At least people who profess faith in Christ who act as though the Lord has been dethroned in heaven because the church is not the majority influence in the culture.

34:59

It's like, what are we doing, guys? Like, I think we've missed something here. You know? Yeah, so what

35:06

I'd love to do now is, we talked about this a little bit last night, how

35:11

I think our eschatology has to be connected to biblical theology. A lot of times,

35:17

Justin, you face this a little bit. I don't know, Chris, if you face this here, but sometimes people will show up to church and they'll ask you, you know, what's your view on eschatology?

35:26

And the thing that I answer people, and some appreciate it, some are frustrated. Typically, my dispensational brothers are frustrated by it, is that I said, listen, the most important thing that we want our congregation to know, and it's part of our confession and our doctrinal standards, is that we put a strong emphasis on the hope of Christ's return.

35:46

And you have to believe in the actual bodily return of Christ, where all things will be new.

35:52

Now, whatever happens between now and that time, we can discuss that with graciousness and kindness.

35:59

But I've spent a lot of time, well, I've spent a lot of time in the dispensational, went to a dispensational seminary, was well -trained there, and have had to wrestle with this.

36:09

And the conclusion that I come to is that if you look at your biblical theology, which it starts in the Old Testament, they longed for a land, and it wasn't

36:17

Israel, folks. They longed for a land beyond it. That's right. And Hebrews tells us this.

36:24

So your biblical theology, as you're walking through the story, you're realizing that the fallen creation and those who were under the teaching of God and his prophets had a proper view of a new heavens and a new earth being in restoration with the king.

36:38

That's right. And we would have all made the same mistake, but when the Messiah showed up, they tried to usher him now.

36:45

They took it physical, right? Thankfully, the apostles came in and clarified that for us.

36:51

But the entire story is one of restoration with the king, done by the king for the glory of the king.

36:59

And God effectively representing himself with his people in the aftermath of the fall. That's right. The whole story is this.

37:05

from the Garden of Eden. I mean, that is the goal of the Lord, that he would be with his people and we would be with him.

37:10

And it's gonna be accomplished through the work of God the Son in our place. I think an observation to be made here too, is that you mentioned biblical theology.

37:21

Our eschatological views should be derived from those much more significant upstream convictions regarding biblical theology.

37:30

Whereas sadly, I think for many people, this is especially true in dispensationalism, the tail wags the dog.

37:36

The eschatological view drives pretty much every other area of doctrine. Like I view the scriptures through the lens of how

37:44

I view the end times, rather than taking these high level convictions, whether that's a law and gospel distinction or covenant theology or just the redemptive historical arc that we're discussing right now and then allowing that to help me better than understand how this is gonna end and what the culmination of these things will be.

38:03

That's good. So in terms of, yeah, I think Jesus gave us paradigms to work with.

38:10

When he spoke, he was very clear as it was in the days of Noah. Yeah. What was

38:17

Noah doing? Noah was known as a preacher of righteousness. He preached the cross. The building of an ark was actually a visual for them.

38:27

Of baptism. Yeah. And it's a type of Christ. The whole thing was a type of Christ. Being brought safely through water. Absolutely. Amen. But what were they doing?

38:34

What were they doing? And what were the Lord's people to be doing? What you clearly see is

38:41

Jesus addresses this, I think, with the kingdom discussion in Luke 17, where he deals with kingdom.

38:47

The kingdom of God doesn't come with observation. That's what everyone wants right now. That's right. Everyone wants this kingdom to be seen.

38:54

We wanna see it in power. We wanna see it in authority and structure. Oh, Jesus has all power and authority given to him.

39:00

There's no question about that. The question is, how does it show itself? Nor will they say, see here or see there, for indeed the kingdom of God is within you.

39:09

In other words, we see the kingdom in the new birth of God's people. We see the kingdom in the life the

39:14

Spirit has given to people who know in John 3 and can testify what they've seen and what they've heard. But then he says, the days will come when you'll desire to see one of the days of the

39:23

Son of Man and will not see it. Things are gonna get so hard at times on the earth, you're gonna so wanna see the kingdom outwardly.

39:31

We're gonna, you know, just like John 6, let's make Jesus the king. Right now. Set it up now. But then he says, they'll say, see here or look there.

39:39

They will say to you, don't go after or follow them. For as lightning flashes from one part of heaven shines to the other part of heaven, so also will the

39:49

Son of Man be in his coming. And then he goes on to say, just like in the days of Noah, they ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage.

40:01

And he says, just as in the days of Lot, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built.

40:08

What's he saying? That's all life's about. That's all life's about. Normal earthly activity will be going on as it always has.

40:16

And people will be living as if this day will never come. Seed time and harvest will continue until the end.

40:23

People will be living. They'll be marrying, buying, thinking that's the end of life. And then when we least expect it, the

40:30

Lord, the trumpet will sound. That's right. And he shepherds his sheep by saying, look, this day is not meant to overtake you as a thief.

40:39

That's right. 1 Thessalonians 5. This day will not surprise you because you're looking for the one who has bought you.

40:47

And you have not been destined for wrath. Right. But to obtain salvation. The Bible's a history of this because if you go to the nations of Israel, so he made them a holy nation, right?

40:57

Separated them. And then separated them from their gods. So there are 400 years in Egypt underneath all of these gods.

41:04

God comes in and claims the title God of gods, Lord of lords, right?

41:10

And proves this to them. And what ends up to the nations later on, they start looking at the world and the success of the world and protection of the world.

41:17

And they're like, we want that. And God has never functioned as sinful flesh. He's always, and I love

41:24

Chad Bird's book, Upside Down Spirituality. That's what it feels like. This is how the world does it. And this is how God does it.

41:29

And that's good when you understand his holiness. We get here and we see, well, this is how nations succeed.

41:35

It's with power and numbers. And he's like, nope. We're gonna do it in such a way that only

41:41

I receive the glory. Which is what we want. What you're talking about right now is a distinction between what would be called a theology of the cross versus a theology of glory.

41:49

Which is very relevant to this conversation. Very relevant. Because not to be pejorative, just to be clear, so much of evangelical

41:57

Christianity in America is a theology of glory. And it is onward, it is upward.

42:03

Bigger is better. It needs to be obvious in the ways that we would perceive strength and success and growth and influence.

42:10

You pick your thing. I mean, this is what's driving so much of the obsession with the pop -level post -mill stuff right now.

42:18

And even people's fascination with guys like Doug Wilson and others, right? Because they are saying things that resonate with American Christians who have watched the culture on a trajectory that's frightening and all those things and the ground is shifting so rapidly beneath our feet.

42:35

What are we gonna do? And the life that I have built for myself that I like, frankly, here in this land is going away.

42:42

How long is this gonna last? And we need people like Doug or whoever on the wall. Like, you need me on that wall.

42:48

We need somebody to say the quiet part out loud and say the things that you guys are scared to say or whatever it might be.

42:53

Because it's so - Can we all three just acknowledge we agree with the degradation of the United States? Sure. The moral failure? Sure, but we disagree.

42:59

We see it. We disagree with the calling on Christians. We want to preach law and gospel and then we want to encourage people to love neighbor.

43:05

That's right. But we're not gonna conflate categories because we do not understand that the Lord works in ways that are obvious to us and how he builds his kingdom, even now.

43:15

So there's, this is really, the distinction between the theology of the cross and the theology of glory -

43:22

Hey, Chris, it'd be good to give an explanation. Yeah, let's define that. that came out of the Reformation. Really, Luther helped develop this in ways that is just so, so -

43:30

But to my Lutheran brothers - It doesn't only belong to them. No, it belongs to Luther.

43:35

Okay, so this is really important. So when we're talking about theology of glory, think of this two -age view.

43:42

We have this age, which is characterized through much tribulation you enter the kingdom of God and then you have the age to come, which is an age of glory.

43:51

Where you see mass confusion throughout history is when you're trying to bring a theology of glory into this age to solve all the common problems.

44:01

So the theology of glory shows itself everywhere. You just mentioned one end of the spectrum. The most popular church in this country was a man strutting around making millions of dollars in the largest church in this country in Houston, Texas, named

44:14

Joel Osteen, wrote a book, Your Best Life Now. And he has deceived many people into thinking this life is all about becoming, using

44:23

God as a fortune cookie, right? Using God to achieve health, its own version of health, wealth, and prosperity.

44:31

That's a theology of glory. But then you get on the opposite end, two sides of the same coin. You can get the,

44:38

I call it the Merle Haggard response. You know, stogie and beard and flannel and we're gonna take it all down and we're gonna get glory now too, you see?

44:49

It's the same theology. It's the same kind of thought of achieving it now, which is all opposed to what it's called.

44:57

And again, we're talking about an order here, a theology of the cross and a theology of glory. Paul thoroughly believed that whatever sufferings he went through had a purpose.

45:07

God would use it for his glory. When he got a thorn in the flesh, he believed when that thorn happened that now

45:13

I'll boast in my affirmanies and reproaches and persecutions because the power of Christ is resting on me.

45:19

But he fully understood that it still was a theology of the cross. He carried a cross in the same path, not of paying for sin, obviously, but in the same path of his

45:29

Messiah. That's right. And that cross we bear has an important role.

45:36

It's important. Paul's credentials in the ministry were suffering. They were not numbers.

45:42

They were not success by any human measurement. He does list his list.

45:48

His credentials were suffering. This is the emphasis of 2 Corinthians. We were talking about this some the other day that people are questioning, even in the first century, right?

45:57

I mean, this is a theology of glory sells on earth. It doesn't matter what era you live in. I'd buy it. Exactly.

46:03

I'd buy it. People are questioning the legitimacy of Paul's ministry because of his weakness. And so he is writing beautifully about that weakness and how the

46:11

Lord works in and through it. And so when we say for now, we will be weak and the

46:17

Lord works through weakness and the Lord works through things that seem foolish to the world, right?

46:22

That's not to discourage anyone, but to actually encourage us all that suffering is normal now.

46:31

Weakness is normal now. And none of those things, suffering or weakness or calamity or trial, mean for one second that we're not the

46:37

Lord's. We are his. And he has ordained these things for our good and for his glory.

46:43

Amen. And he uses them in ways that we can't fathom right now. But he is preparing us for the weight of glory that's coming.

46:50

That's right. And we've got to view these things through that lens. And we do tend to get things upside down.

46:55

We are impressed with all the wrong stuff. We value all the wrong stuff because we all tend to value our comfort and our thriving now.

47:03

Yeah. Right. I'm excited about your next session. You're gonna be jumping into Revelation 1.

47:10

I've been doing just a lot of preparation for Peter and reading a lot about just Rome, the first century.

47:17

Well, by the time John writes Revelation and things have gone bad, real bad. Don't give my sermon away.

47:23

Sorry. You gotta stop right now. That's right. No, I'm just kidding. Go ahead. Give the good news. Yeah, who's he writing to?

47:29

And then Jonah got swallowed by a whale. That's right. So obey God or you'll get swallowed by a whale.

47:35

Yeah. So, sorry, am I totally giving it away? No, just go, just go. So I want to help everyone.

47:42

Anybody grow up afraid of the book of Revelation? Raise your hand. Like, yeah, terrifying. Yeah. So John has to write to people who watched their spouses die.

47:57

They've seen a lot of evil things and they feel like, man, the king of darkness is winning.

48:04

Oh, yeah. And I gave up everything for this king and I do not see him. Where is he? Right. What's going on?

48:10

John's like, okay, hear me out. If you read this whole book, you'll be blessed by it.

48:16

So he starts, all right, blessed are those who believe, who read this book. That's right. And you read that thing and you're like,

48:22

I think drugs existed because John was on them. It was like, whoa, what's in this book, right? But at the end of it, what are you left with?

48:30

You're left with a king who comes back and he demonstrates his power and it's beautiful.

48:38

And you're left with a new heavens and a new earth. Right, yeah. I mean, this king comes back as a warrior and the sword's coming out of his mouth.

48:44

And when he walks up to you, what's he do? Yeah, he wipes the tear. I mean, it's amazing.

48:50

It's epic, man. That book is there because the cycle of suffering, it's almost how the book is written.

48:56

It's written almost in a cycle of suffering. So as we go through these periods of cycling and suffering, keep reminding yourself, you might be somewhere in this cycle, but the end is coming.

49:07

And when it does, just remember, as bad as it may feel right now, he always wins every cycle.

49:13

And again, coming back to the thorn in the flesh, I think it's just so helpful for you.

49:19

You know, we don't know what it was that Paul was given. I'm always thankful that the authors don't tell us a lot of these afflictions.

49:28

The Lord knew what he was doing. You know, I was given a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me.

49:34

Some of you might be going through some severe affliction and hardship, you know, and he gets on his knees and begs the

49:41

Lord three times to take it away. So he's really hurting, whatever this is. And the super apostles, the ministers of Satan he calls in 2

49:50

Corinthians 11, are mocking him saying, that guy can't be legitimate if he's suffering that way. You know, he's pathetic.

49:56

That's not a stamp of authenticity because how could a true servant of God suffer that way?

50:02

This is a Job -like scenario. And Paul says, I pleaded with the Lord. I begged the

50:07

Lord to take it away. And the answer of the Lord was not that it's pointless.

50:13

It's that my grace is sufficient for my power is shown.

50:20

It's made perfect in human weakness. So the promise embedded there is that he is indeed showcasing himself in you.

50:29

And Paul seems to have a giant mind change about the suffering where he says, well then, okay.

50:35

I'm not begging anymore to have it taken away. I will rather boast in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, in sufferings, for Christ's sake, for when

50:46

I'm weak, then I'm strong. See, so it's not purposeless. It's appointed for the end of showcasing the strength of Christ.

50:56

And because somebody else needs to see that in you, that's why we're left here. There's a witness aspect.

51:01

That's right. Amen. When, I'd love to take the next 10, 15 minutes and what's been really helpful for me is, okay, this all sounds great, but how does this work tomorrow morning when

51:16

I put on my shoes? Like when I face the day. In that, you made a comment

51:24

Justin about how we really don't want to lose the ease of life we experience here.

51:32

And I think we can all fall into that. You know, I was looking at the gas prices you guys pay.

51:37

May God have mercy on you. I need to get another job. Wait till you go buy a burrito.

51:48

What I think is so great about Escondido, I mean the

51:53

URC here and Justin's church, and I find a lot of comfort in the churches who preach this message because as the world goes, wherever God decides for it to go at the moment, the mission and method does not change.

52:09

I'm so thankful we don't have to get up and be like, how are we going to figure out how to bring people to Christ?

52:15

It's like Paul says, we'll preach it in season and out of season. Like what we do church, what we do family, it doesn't change.

52:23

We hear the word, we believe the word, then we express the love of Christ so that we might share the word.

52:28

In every era that we're at. And when those moments, because I know there are many of you sitting in here and you're like,

52:35

John, I am exhausted. Well, there's a reason why Hebrews wrote, like hey, consider how to build one another up because those moments come.

52:43

You know, Paul's in prison like, I'm lonely. Can someone please come and remind me of Jesus?

52:50

I love this story. As a preacher, these stories are important to me because there's like rules and then there's pictures.

52:57

I'm a picture guy. It makes more sense when I can see it. When John the Baptist is about to die, he's like, hey, someone go ask

53:07

Jesus. Just, I need to make sure I'm about to die for the right guy. Are you the one or should we look for somebody else? Because I really don't want to die for you if you're not the guy.

53:15

You know? And that's kind of how you feel sometimes. Like, am I sure that I've got the right gospel?

53:20

Maybe I've got the wrong gospel. So clarity of the gospel, which is really what this is about. Because you cannot have hope if you do not have clarity.

53:27

So we're facing the end. And the whole point of this conference is we need to talk about the clarity of the hope.

53:33

Because if you're clear on your hope, you're going to be able to do a whole lot more than you realize because you're not doing it in your own strength and you're not doing it in your own power.

53:40

And as little as loving your wife, loving your children, loving your neighbor, that is significant because it's through our love for one another that the demonstration of,

53:51

I love Jesus when he says, the world will know that you've been taught of me, you're my disciple, by the love you share for one another.

53:58

Right? And so how is it we find the energy to love others that are often unlovable?

54:04

By looking at God's love for us. That's our hope. So when Peter says, set your hope fully on the grace that is to come, grace is undeserved love and favor.

54:13

Keep putting your eyes on the love and favor of Christ. Then you have the energy to do the work that needs to be done.

54:20

Every eye bowed, every head closed, we'll have an invitation then. Sorry. No, that's exactly right.

54:26

I think of 2 Corinthians 4, we fix our eyes not on what is seen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

54:38

That's sort of the verse to take with you every day. It's easy to only look on what is seen and become incredibly frustrated with everything, frustrated with life, frustrated with spouse, frustrated with children, frustrated with work, and miss the whole picture of everything.

54:58

What is unseen? Well, there's a few good imageries for you I'll use in the message next time.

55:04

You might think of Elisha's servant when the army was coming and he panics and Elisha says,

55:11

Lord, open his eyes to see. All around him was a heavenly army, all around him.

55:18

Defending him, keeping him. But the New Testament says it's not just an army of angels around you, it's your

55:25

Savior. That's right. He's with you. I have promised, says the Lord, to be with you wheresoever you go.

55:33

Lo, I am with you always to the close of the age. So, you know, one of the things that's important is every day we say this, we say this casually, we say this frequently, but in light of the hope that you have to, and this is hard,

55:44

I'm a pastor and don't do this well. Preach the gospel to yourself every morning. Right?

55:50

You get up out of bed and just quote, if you're gonna quote the best kind of catechism or confession ever made, it's the

55:56

Heidelberg. And it... Everybody has their opinion, right?

56:04

And it says... Love the Heidelberg catechism. I know. You know, what is your only comfort in life and in death?

56:10

That's right. That I'm not my own. Just listen to the words. But I belong body and soul and life and in death to my faithful Savior, Jesus Christ, who has fully paid for all my sins with his precious blood, set me free from the tyranny of the devil, watches over me in such a way that not even a hair falls from my head.

56:28

These are the truths you have to carry with you every day. Yeah. And this gives you hope in the midst of all this instead of focusing on only what is seen.

56:38

A number of thoughts going around in my head. I'll just share a few. I think, for me, it's very helpful in thinking about hope now and how does this matter practically?

56:49

What does it look like for me when I'm putting my shoes on tomorrow morning to use your language, John? I think to be reminded, as we've talked about at multiple points, that the

56:56

Lord loves me and that Jesus desires that I and we be with him where he is and to think of the words that he speaks in the gospels and to put yourself there.

57:09

I mean, I think it's a good exercise that he's not just speaking these words ethereally. He's speaking them to you as his beloved one.

57:17

And so when he says that you don't need to be afraid, believe in God, believe also in me, right?

57:22

In my father's house are many rooms that I've gone to prepare a place for you and I wouldn't tell you that I'm gonna do that unless I meant what

57:28

I'm saying and I promise you I'll do it. You can trust me and I'm gonna come back for you and I'm gonna bring you to be with me where I am.

57:34

And later in John 17, 24, he prays that we would be with him so that we might see his glory that the

57:41

Father gave him before the foundation of the world. That's what he desires for us. That's helpful. And then

57:47

I'm just mindful of his posture toward weak, sinful people like us, like the account of Zacchaeus.

57:52

You guys know he's a big time sinner, right? He's a tax collector and he's a very short man and there's all the fanfare around Jesus as he's making his way and so Zacchaeus climbs up in the tree and he wants to see

58:05

Jesus and Jesus stops and calls to him just like he has to all of us. And he says, hurry and come down because I am going to be with you in your house today.

58:14

Like the fact that Christ desires to be present with his people means something for us as we're going through.

58:20

It's what you just said, Chris. The Lord is with us. May we never lose sight of that. We feel so alone often.

58:26

We question our legitimacy six ways from Sunday but the Lord is with us and desires to be because he came to seek and save such as us.

58:33

And then I think we preach the gospel to ourselves. There's any number of ways we can do it. You guys were talking about the book of Revelation. I don't know if anybody in this audience has ever been terrified when you've heard the parable of the wedding banquet preached.

58:46

I certainly was at a season of my life. The question is, all right, that wedding garment that you need in order to be in the feast and a part of the celebration, what is that?

58:56

Where are you gonna get it? Well, the book of Revelation is helpful there. You know, chapter seven after the 144 ,000, that's what

59:03

John hears about. Then he sees a multitude that no one can count so much for dispensationalism.

59:09

And then we hear about these people. We see these people, this mass around the throne of God. They're praising God. And what are they clothed in?

59:16

They're clothed in robes that have been made white and washed in the blood of the lamb. And then Jesus in Revelation 22 says, blessed are all who have this garment and they will be granted access to eat of the tree of life.

59:28

That hearkens all the way back to the beginning, right? The tree that Adam and Eve could no longer eat of on their own merit, that they were driven away from.

59:36

The Lord Jesus grants access and he gives us the wedding garment that we need. And these are the things that we have to remind ourselves of.

59:42

Everything I need I've been given. He desires to be with me. And that there is a multitude no man can number.

59:48

Heaven will not be sparsely populated. No, this is important because we think, you know, even with the question,

59:54

Lord, are few saved? You know, Jesus turned it to press people to faith in him. That's what he did.

59:59

But when you have that vision in Revelation seven of everyone standing there clothed in the garments, it's a multitude no man, this was the greatest success story.

01:00:11

This was not a defeat. Not one of his sheep were lost. Not one, not one was plucked from his hand.

01:00:19

Every single one of them were there. Yeah, that's right. That's the kind of thing that must drive us.

01:00:24

Well, there's no empty seats in heaven and there will be so many. We tend to think it will be sparsely populated and we are wrong about that. Yeah, well, one other thought and then

01:00:32

I'll throw over to you, Chris. One of the things I was thinking about, we wanna win by force, the sword,

01:00:41

Peter brought the sword. What does God send us out with? Words instead. Sure.

01:00:46

And words. And he says this, speak the truth in what? Love. So we seek first the kingdom of God in your homes, in your jobs, in your work.

01:00:54

When you think about life, you have to realize you don't get to see everything

01:01:00

God is doing. Those words of love, that affection, that patience that you show, that is work of the kingdom.

01:01:07

That everyday life, what did they do? They bought, they sold, but how you buy and how you sell, right? That affection and love that you show, you do not know what

01:01:15

God is doing with that. I think it's fascinating that the worst of the culture were drawn to Jesus and they described him as a friend.

01:01:26

He was a friend of sinners. They felt comfortable around him and he never affirmed their sin. He says, daughter, go and sin no more, right?

01:01:33

He freed them from their sin. So sometimes it's simple for us to figure out our life is complicated.

01:01:39

There's a lot going on. How do I know I'm doing the work of the kingdom? Think about how to love and be a light and be kind and be patient.

01:01:46

And as cheesy as this may sound, I'm telling you sometimes just giving the waitress a smile, just being nice, you don't know when you'll see them again.

01:01:54

You don't know what conversation's coming next. Take every opportunity that you can and realize they're not wasted.

01:02:00

And this helps me because sometimes life feels weird and mundane. Like what are we doing? I just feel like I'm waiting to die.

01:02:07

And then I remind myself that as Paul says, you're an ambassador, you're a temple of God and how you act and love, he uses for his glory.

01:02:18

Remember this, this has helped me. I just preached this, so that's why it's fresh in my mind. But the weapons of our warfare are not carnal.

01:02:26

Yeah, so good. But mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.

01:02:43

The weapons we use are not physical. The weapons we use are spiritual.

01:02:50

And what Paul's saying there in the context of this is he was being viciously attacked by these super apostles.

01:02:58

And they were charging him with all kinds of stupid things. But Paul says, I want you to understand, Corinthians, how

01:03:04

I get through this, how I fight this war. I understand that as we maintain the ministry of the word, the ministry of the gospel, as we hold the sword of the spirit, which is the word of God, as we are faithful in that, as we are faithful ambassadors, as we continue to hold fast the truth as it is in Jesus, as we continue to maintain that witness, here's what

01:03:24

God's doing. This is not what you're doing. Here's what God's doing. It's God's power.

01:03:31

And what he's doing is, the weapons that we're using are mighty in God. He's pulling down strongholds in people's lives all the time.

01:03:39

And he is casting down arguments in every high thing. In other words, he's storming the fort of people's lives.

01:03:45

He's storming the fort of hearts. And he has the power to turn hearts, to cast down lofty things against Christ through this ministry.

01:03:53

But I think the thing that affected me this week when I preached it last week was to think, God doesn't do it the way that we want.

01:04:00

I have a lot of people who can be obnoxious in my life, a lot of enemies, a lot of people we'd love to slap around and take behind the barn, whatever.

01:04:11

That's not how we are to be. That's right. What God does in his timing is, in his way, is cast down and frustrate the works of the evil one in people's lives.

01:04:24

And undermines all these arguments. Think of all the ideas, movements, philosophies that have hit us.

01:04:29

He's constantly doing this. This is why we're here today. He's preserved us. We have a church. He's continuing to cast down fortifications and strongholds as we remain faithful to the ministry of the word.

01:04:42

Yeah. I mean, this life, you don't need us to tell you, this life is full of suffering.

01:04:48

And sometimes that's the tragic stuff that happens. I mean, we live in a world where we bury our children.

01:04:55

And only an insane person would look around and say that this is how it should be. But then sometimes it's the more mundane stuff.

01:05:01

It is the putting on your shoes to go to work tomorrow when you just don't feel like doing that or whatever. You're getting up again to spend the day managing the household and caring for children and you're exhausted.

01:05:13

Those mundane things can often just grind us to powder in our experience. And so what we remind ourselves of in those moments is that, like Paul writes in Romans 8, that right now we groan and the creation groans along with us.

01:05:25

And kind of tying together some of the things we've been talking about today, Paul talks about the hope that we have, which is the resurrection of our bodies.

01:05:32

And he asks that effectively, do you hope for what you see?

01:05:38

No. No one hopes for what he sees. We hope for something that we don't yet see, but we trust will be true because the

01:05:45

Lord has told us that it will be. So we think toward that day. And then I don't know about you. Do you ever have a hard time because you're suffering, you're experiencing difficulty, you're just frustrated with your circumstances and you're like,

01:05:56

Lord, I don't even know. I know that I should pray. I'm not quite sure what to pray. I'm not sure how to pray. I'm not sure what to ask for.

01:06:01

I'm not even quite sure how I feel about my relationship with you right now. If you've ever found yourself in that place, which

01:06:08

I think we all have, be encouraged that the spirit of God is with us in our weakness. He gets up under the burdens with us and helps us to bear them.

01:06:15

And he intercedes for us when we don't know how to pray as we should. And then Paul reminds us that nothing in all of the universe, not even the evil one himself, will ever separate us from the love of Christ.

01:06:24

And there is no condemnation. There is no one who will ever accuse us. And those accusations stick.

01:06:30

We were talking about this last night, that the great accuser of the brethren, I mean, Satan is really firing darts at us and accusing us of any number of things.

01:06:40

But the Lord Jesus Christ, in him, none of those accusations stand because we are his blessed ones.

01:06:46

Well, I think that covers an hour you've given us with your gracious time, two programs that we are able to cut and make.

01:06:53

So thank you for listening today. Thank you for all those tuning in. And I still say tuning in.

01:06:58

You don't really say that, but watching. It is live. It is live. So for those on the live stream, that's right, on the live stream, thankful.

01:07:05

But thanks for joining us today. Thank you to John and Justin for a wonderful discussion. And we'll come back after the lunch hour.